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(Network World)   FARK joins civil rights groups and other major websites in the July 4 protest against NSA surveillance   (networkworld.com ) divider line
    More: Spiffy, NSA, civil rights groups, Fourth Amendment, IDG, freedom of the press, NSA surveillance, civil rights, John Cusack  
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5860 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Jul 2013 at 2:42 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-03 06:45:30 AM  

sendtodave: BullBearMS: sendtodave: I'm not even sure what a "shadowban" is.

It's a particularly cowardly form of censorship they use on reddit.

To you, your comment appears as normal. However, nobody else can see it.

Well, that's kinda low.


The shadowban thing is practice for people who haven't worked their way up to government paranoia and religion yet.
 
2013-07-03 06:50:04 AM  

thamike: I'd like to add that the people having an aneurysm about our Blah- Helicopter government are the same people who are going to blow past several legally binding User Agreements by clicking "I AGREE," sign leases without reading the whole thing, and give out their social security numbers, bank account numbers, and  PIN publicly and over the phone. And that might be just by this afternoon.

Pardon my lack of eagle tears.


Yeah, the Constitution is just an old piece of paper after all. Who cares...
 
2013-07-03 06:52:13 AM  

BullBearMS: My experience with Mr. Greenwald's writing is not limited at all.

He has consistently opposed warrantless spying on Americans.

He opposed it when Bush did it.

He continues to oppose it just as much as ever now that Obama is doing it.

This is exactly how a principled civil libertarian behaves. It's not suddenly OK when your team does it.



Except he seems to have confused copying phone records with recording communication content and nothing presented by him or his cohort since seems to indicate that the NSA is doing anything more than tracking patterns in electronic communications.  His beliefs may be consistent but his conclusions are stretched well beyond what his foundation would support and seeing so many people freak out over this issue simply highlights how little people understand when it comes to their rights.
 
2013-07-03 06:55:20 AM  

Wrencher: thamike: I'd like to add that the people having an aneurysm about our Blah- Helicopter government are the same people who are going to blow past several legally binding User Agreements by clicking "I AGREE," sign leases without reading the whole thing, and give out their social security numbers, bank account numbers, and  PIN publicly and over the phone. And that might be just by this afternoon.

Pardon my lack of eagle tears.

Yeah, the Constitution is just an old piece of paper after all. Who cares...


We've replaced real liberals with Obama shills trying to make excuses for this, now that Obama is the one doing it.

Lets see if anyone notices.
 
2013-07-03 06:58:03 AM  
I think protests are good.  But in this case its going to be ultimately fruitless.  Does one really think that our spy agency is going to stop spying?  Sure they might say they're going to stop, but they're not going to.
 
2013-07-03 06:58:35 AM  

sendtodave: thamike: Lee Jackson Beauregard: Dear Fark admins:

The last time I tried to post to Fark via Tor, the comment ended up shadowbanned.  I am posting this comment through Tor also, to test my hypothesis that Fark shadowbans Tor.

Dear Farkers and Farkettes:

If you can read this comment, my hypothesis is wrong and Fark does not shadowban Tor.

Dear Fark admins:

If this comment disappears, I will be posting another one, through normal channels, to call you out on it.

This somewhat illustrates part of my point.

I'm not even sure what a "shadowban" is.


A shadowbanned or hellbanned comment is visible to the person who posted it, as long as the website can identify that person, and hidden from everyone else.  Shadowbanning can be detected by dumping cookies and trying to read the comment.

A few weeks ago, I had a comment shadowbanned in an NSA thread, apparently because I called one of the usual suspects a rude name.  Y'all will see three comments under my name in that thread; I see four if I am logged in, or if the cookie is still set after I have logged out.  I sent an admittedly-testy Farkback, the gist of which was "just plain delete, if you're going to, and save the shadowbanning for the spammers".  The reply claimed the comment should have been just plain deleted, and squawked about "trolling other Fark users".  If "trolling other Fark users" is an offense, then quite a lot of Farkers earned a ban hammer long ago.
 
2013-07-03 06:59:03 AM  

JK47: Except he seems to have confused copying phone records with recording communication content and nothing presented by him or his cohort since seems to indicate that the NSA is doing anything more than tracking patterns in electronic communications.


Don't you mean that the NSA documents leaked to him by an NSA employee do not match up with the story currently being told to us by NSA officials?

Since these same NSA officials have recently been caught red handed lying to Congress under oath, I'm not certain why you think anyone should believe what they say on the matter now.
 
2013-07-03 07:03:12 AM  

Kimpak: I think protests are good.  But in this case its going to be ultimately fruitless.  Does one really think that our spy agency is going to stop spying?  Sure they might say they're going to stop, but they're not going to.


SOPA internet blackout was seen as a fruitless protest, too.

Look at how the internet raised their voice

Because I have to clarify to avoid misunderstandings, I aint saying that I am/was in favor of SOPA or against it. That is not my point. My point is that the internet is more powerful than people give it credit for.
 
2013-07-03 07:03:20 AM  
Internet protests are about as effective against government as World of Warcraft "Sit ins" are against Blizzard.

If you want to affect real change you have to show up at federal buildings, en mass,
 
2013-07-03 07:05:40 AM  
JK47:
Except he seems to have confused copying phone records....

what gives the NSA the right to those records?
 
2013-07-03 07:05:40 AM  
So I was going to invite Crosby Stills and Nash but Neil Young cut me out with a magical diaper. Cortez cortez....
 
2013-07-03 07:06:01 AM  

AndreMA: Posting encrypted random content (bonus for destroying the private key afterwards) in various places will keep the NSA computers from getting lonely... since they seem to class "accidental" collection from US citizens OK to retain for 5 years, just as they do if they think there's "evidence of a crime"

Let's fill up that new data center in Utah with encrypted lolcats.


Speaking of which, how much does it burden a server to provide HTTPS?  (Attention Fark admins:  the foregoing is a hint.  Any damn fool can black out a web page.)
 
2013-07-03 07:07:39 AM  

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Lee Jackson Beauregard: Dear Fark admins:

The last time I tried to post to Fark via Tor, the comment ended up shadowbanned.  I am posting this comment through Tor also, to test my hypothesis that Fark shadowbans Tor.

Dear Farkers and Farkettes:

If you can read this comment, my hypothesis is wrong and Fark does not shadowban Tor.

Dear Fark admins:

If this comment disappears, I will be posting another one, through normal channels, to call you out on it.

My non-Tor browser is set to dump cookies when I close it.  That is the one I'm using to post this comment.  My hypothesis stands refuted, so long as comment 85156710 in this thread remains visible.


Dude, seriously? Who... farking... Cares? Seriously, you're not that important. Really.

Know what? They can "shadow ban" you. Drew and his mates can out right ban you, and they don't even need a reason. Know why? It's Drew's site. His playground, his game, his rules. And in case you haven't noticed, no one is forcing you to be here. If you don't like it, allllllll you have to do is not return.

So seriously. Bundle up your delusions of grandeur and either fark off, or shut up.

/no, ain't even mad, just dislike self important little dickwaffles
 
2013-07-03 07:11:19 AM  
There's a nice NSA-only off ramp on a state highway in MD. Probably a nice place for several thousand people to set up lawn chairs.
 
2013-07-03 07:12:15 AM  

thamike: I'd like to add that the people having an aneurysm about our Blah- Helicopter government are the same people who are going to blow past several legally binding User Agreements by clicking "I AGREE," sign leases without reading the whole thing, and give out their social security numbers, bank account numbers, and  PIN publicly and over the phone. And that might be just by this afternoon.

Pardon my lack of eagle tears.


Why does "people should be held accountable for agreeing to stuff that they don't really understand just to use the services that everyone uses" always come up as a counter to government not being held accountable for what it does?

I mean, it's just kinda funny to me.

Anyway, there's a fine line between caveat empator and blame the victim, either way.
 
2013-07-03 07:12:16 AM  
Lee Jackson Beauregard:  If "trolling other Fark users" is an offense, then quite a lot of Farkers earned a ban hammer long ago.

"Don't troll/harass other Farkers."

/it just that it was to be something particularly egregious for anybody to take action
 
2013-07-03 07:14:05 AM  

unchellmatt: Dude, seriously? Who... farking... Cares? Seriously, you're not that important. Really.


You do, it would seem.

Know what? They can "shadow ban" you. Drew and his mates can out right ban you, and they don't even need a reason. Know why? It's Drew's site. His playground, his game, his rules. And in case you haven't noticed, no one is forcing you to be here. If you don't like it, allllllll you have to do is not return.

i244.photobucket.com

My query was not "do they shadowban me?"  (Obviously they don't.)  It's "do they shadowban posts from Tor?"  (Which they apparently don't, which is good, as it would make Fark part of the problem.  Any damn fool can black out a web page.)
 
2013-07-03 07:16:27 AM  

Lee Jackson Beauregard: A few weeks ago, I had a comment shadowbanned in an NSA thread, apparently because I called one of the usual suspects a rude name. Y'all will see three comments under my name in that thread; I see four if I am logged in, or if the cookie is still set after I have logged out. I sent an admittedly-testy Farkback, the gist of which was "just plain delete, if you're going to, and save the shadowbanning for the spammers". The reply claimed the comment should have been just plain deleted, and squawked about "trolling other Fark users". If "trolling other Fark users" is an offense, then quite a lot of Farkers earned a ban hammer long ago.


You weren't perhaps just viewing a cached copy?
 
2013-07-03 07:17:53 AM  

Voiceofreason01: JK47:
Except he seems to have confused copying phone records....

what gives the NSA the right to those records?


We all clicked "I agree" when we voted for Obama, obviously.
 
2013-07-03 07:20:07 AM  

sendtodave: Lee Jackson Beauregard: A few weeks ago, I had a comment shadowbanned in an NSA thread, apparently because I called one of the usual suspects a rude name. Y'all will see three comments under my name in that thread; I see four if I am logged in, or if the cookie is still set after I have logged out. I sent an admittedly-testy Farkback, the gist of which was "just plain delete, if you're going to, and save the shadowbanning for the spammers". The reply claimed the comment should have been just plain deleted, and squawked about "trolling other Fark users". If "trolling other Fark users" is an offense, then quite a lot of Farkers earned a ban hammer long ago.

You weren't perhaps just viewing a cached copy?


Nope.  I tried reading that thread again while posting that comment.  Four comments if I'm logged in, three if not.
 
2013-07-03 07:21:02 AM  
Lee Jackson Beauregard:

My query was not "do they shadowban me?"  (Obviously they don't.)  It's "do they shadowban posts from Tor?"  (Which they apparently don't, which is good, as it would make Fark part of the problem.  Any damn fool can black out a web page.)

Again... Who cares? If they shadowban Tor, who cares? So what? While Tor does have a number of valid uses, absolutely, the primary purpose of the app is to hide paranoids and pederasts. To be clear, I'm not suggesting your the latter, however your concern over "shadowbans" leads me to suspect the former. So my original statement stands: If you dislike their rules, if you dislike them "shadowbanning" Tor users, pack up and get out. No one is forcing you to be here.
 
2013-07-03 07:22:50 AM  

unchellmatt: While Tor does have a number of valid uses, absolutely, the primary purpose of the app is to hide paranoids and pederasts.


Well, that's helpful.
 
2013-07-03 07:26:07 AM  

cman: SOPA internet blackout was seen as a fruitless protest, too.

Look at how the internet raised their voice

Because I have to clarify to avoid misunderstandings, I aint saying that I am/was in favor of SOPA or against it. That is not my point. My point is that the internet is more powerful than people give it credit for.


There's a difference here though.  SOPA was not yet law, so the outrage could stop the wheels of its passing.  The NSA has been around since the 50's, and the patriot act has been around since 2001.  Its already done and entrenched.  Internet outrage isn't going to be enough to stop that juggernaut.  Furthermore, to be a major power country, one must have a spy agency.  Like it or not, its just the way of the world.  Even if somehow there's enough protest to oust the NSA, another more secret agency will be created from its ashes.  Or a more likely scenario, the NSA will say its going to stop its prism program and anything else related to it.  But...behind the scenes they will continue doing it and just call it something else, I'm guessing most agents aren't as retarded as Snowden.

tl;dr version: Spy agency's are going to spy whether you like it or not.  On other nations, and on their own citizens.  Its been done since the first 2 nations met each other and will continue until Armageddon.
 
2013-07-03 07:33:43 AM  

sendtodave: unchellmatt: While Tor does have a number of valid uses, absolutely, the primary purpose of the app is to hide paranoids and pederasts.

Well, that's helpful.


*shrug* Brutally honest. Tor is useful if you're doing a background check on someone or investigating a crime and you don't want a visiting IP tracing back to West Lompock Police Department. It's useful if you're a political dissident and you want to make a post to a forum and not have it leading people to you who intend to do nasty things. It's useful if, as this thread of course is on, browse the web and not be tracked by the NSA. All valid uses. But it's undeniable that the majority of people who make use are doing so for tasks nefarious. But crying because you're "shadowbanned" by a website is comical and, frankly, pathetic. Heavens. The NSA might ... see that I ... posted on a Caturday thread? Seriously?
 
2013-07-03 07:33:44 AM  

Kimpak: Spy agency's are going to spy whether you like it or not.  On other nations, and on their own citizens.  Its been done since the first 2 nations met each other and will continue until Armageddon.


Lay back and think of England then?

This is a scary mentality.
 
2013-07-03 07:34:45 AM  
So this is the cause of the week? Remember when everyone on the internet pretended to care about Iran for a few days? Good times.
 
2013-07-03 07:38:54 AM  

unchellmatt: *shrug* Brutally honest. Tor is useful if you're doing a background check on someone or investigating a crime and you don't want a visiting IP tracing back to West Lompock Police Department. It's useful if you're a political dissident and you want to make a post to a forum and not have it leading people to you who intend to do nasty things. It's useful if, as this thread of course is on, browse the web and not be tracked by the NSA. All valid uses. But it's undeniable that the majority of people who make use are doing so for tasks nefarious.


Well, at least not everyone using technology to try to maintain their privacy is assumed to be a criminal.

Just most of them.
 
2013-07-03 07:40:26 AM  

BullBearMS: Don't you mean that the NSA documents leaked to him by an NSA employee do not match up with the story currently being told to us by NSA officials?

Since these same NSA officials have recently been caught red handed lying to Congress under oath, I'm not certain why you think anyone should believe what they say on the matter now.


I think it's misguided patriotism mixed with gullibility and a lack of critical thinking.
 
2013-07-03 07:40:35 AM  

ontariolightning: Protest for a day..big flipping whoop



stevenhomartialarts.com
 
2013-07-03 07:41:45 AM  

Cyclometh: Oh look. A virtual protest. Because that's going to change anything.

This isn't standing up against legislation like SOPA. This is a fait accompli.It's already done.

The war is over, and freedom lost. The only option to restore it- TRULY restore it- is not an option Americans can stomach.

The American experiment, for all intents and purposes, is over. Now we enter the decline of empire. Enjoy it. Decadence does have its benefits.


You left out a step.

The people will cheer when the Emperor rises to power for our salvation.
 
2013-07-03 07:41:52 AM  
'MURICA!

Should just boycott the 4th anyways. Patriotism is silly.
 
2013-07-03 07:46:07 AM  
The other day there was a thread about how cops would set up a honeypot to see who tried to dodge a DUI checkpoint, and then stop them, since trying to avoid the stop constitutes probable cause.

Do you think it is, or will be assumed that people who use technologies to try and maintain their privacy, such as Tor, raise red flags as well?

Only those with something to hide would bother to hide themselves?  Good people live in public?
 
2013-07-03 07:46:53 AM  
Have we decided what color to make the band around the K yet?
 
2013-07-03 07:51:40 AM  

The Muthaship: Lay back and think of England then?

This is a scary mentality.


For lack of a better term, yes.  Think the scenario all the way through though.  Say all this outrage actually kills off the NSA.  Its completely abolished.  U.S. no longer has a spy agency.  China, once they're done laughing their asses off, launches a completely unhindered spy program.  Now instead of all your facebook posts in the NSA's database, now its in China's database.

Of course, there's a better than fair chance other countries have already done this anyway.  I think I'd rather have my own country reading my FB page and hopefully countering foreign intelligence, than not.
 
2013-07-03 07:57:57 AM  

Kimpak: Say all this outrage actually kills off the NSA.


How does forcing the the Government to get a warrant based on probable cause of wrongdoing before spying on American citizens, as the Constitution requires, killing off anything?
 
2013-07-03 08:01:32 AM  

Kimpak: Think the scenario all the way through though.  Say all this outrage actually kills off the NSA.  Its completely abolished.  U.S. no longer has a spy agency.  China, once they're done laughing their asses off, launches a completely unhindered spy program.  Now instead of all your facebook posts in the NSA's database, now its in China's database.


I apologize.  I had no idea you were this simple.
 
2013-07-03 08:07:48 AM  

BullBearMS: How does forcing the the Government to get a warrant based on probable cause of wrongdoing before spying on American citizens, as the Constitution requires, killing off anything?


That'd be great.  Except you'd be naive to think that would happen even if the law was on the books.  What part of SPY don't you understand?
 
2013-07-03 08:09:04 AM  

The Muthaship: I apologize.  I had no idea you were this simple.


Ok, maybe that's a bit too far.  But what exactly is the end game here?  If you were king for the day, what exactly would you do?
 
2013-07-03 08:11:47 AM  
I'm kinda busy that day. Isn't there a jpg or something I can post to facebook?
 
2013-07-03 08:12:01 AM  

Kimpak: BullBearMS: How does forcing the the Government to get a warrant based on probable cause of wrongdoing before spying on American citizens, as the Constitution requires, killing off anything?

That'd be great.  Except you'd be naive to think that would happen even if the law was on the books.  What part of SPY don't you understand?


The police do it with a warrant all the time. Why is the NSA different? Are they less good at their jobs?
 
2013-07-03 08:14:30 AM  

Kimpak: BullBearMS: How does forcing the the Government to get a warrant based on probable cause of wrongdoing before spying on American citizens, as the Constitution requires, killing off anything?

That'd be great.  Except you'd be naive to think that would happen even if the law was on the books.  What part of SPY don't you understand?


The oath of office for Obama and every member of Congress is to protect and defend the Constitution.

The Constitution is quite clear on the matter.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

This isn't up for debate. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. If the members of Congress and the President aren't willing to defend it, they are nothing more than traitors.
 
2013-07-03 08:15:28 AM  

Kimpak: If you were king for the day, what exactly would you do?


If the administration wants to spy on its own citizens, there must be real probable cause.  Specificity is a must, no blanket authorizations.  The probable cause hearing has to happen in a real court that is open to the public and has elected judges.  As for spying on other countries (be they allies or not) that's another matter.  Just don't be morons about it and make us look bad, Kerry!
 
2013-07-03 08:17:58 AM  

Kimpak: I think I'd rather have my own country reading my FB page and hopefully countering foreign intelligence, than not.


Which is what billions of NON-Americans might be thinking these days, huh?

The fact is we know the U.S. government is conducting blanket surveillance on all its citizens.  For most people, there's no nuance or discussion of "competing interests"  to talk about here.  Only outrage.

Just because laws passed in the last decade may legally sanction the actions means only that the U.S. Congress has legislatively crippled the "Freedom & Democracy" that they pretend to protect.

And if people can just shrug about it, it bodes ill for any hope of regaining it.
 
2013-07-03 08:19:03 AM  

sendtodave: Well, at least not everyone using technology to try to maintain their privacy is assumed to be a criminal.

Just most of them.


*shrug*

Just calls it as I sees it. What I stated was, I admit, a biased opinion, and as I said, I do see the value of Tor, and I do thoroughly agree with the value of privacy and agree that the NSA was over stepping bounds.
 
2013-07-03 08:20:00 AM  

cameroncrazy1984: Kimpak: BullBearMS: How does forcing the the Government to get a warrant based on probable cause of wrongdoing before spying on American citizens, as the Constitution requires, killing off anything?

That'd be great.  Except you'd be naive to think that would happen even if the law was on the books.  What part of SPY don't you understand?

The police do it with a warrant all the time. Why is the NSA different? Are they less good at their jobs?


The police don't even have a secret court that has almost never refused to issue a warrant when they are asked for one, either.

The FISC is supposed to operate as a check. But it is a secret court, notorious for its low rate of denial. From 1979 to 2002, it did not reject a single application. Over the past five years, out of nearly 8,600 applications, only two have been denied.

How farking pathetic is it that they can't be bothered to even stick within the law when they have already been given a rubber stamp court?
 
2013-07-03 08:20:50 AM  

Kimpak: BullBearMS: How does forcing the the Government to get a warrant based on probable cause of wrongdoing before spying on American citizens, as the Constitution requires, killing off anything?

That'd be great.  Except you'd be naive to think that would happen even if the law was on the books.  What part of SPY don't you understand?


All we asking is that it is illegal to spy on people without getting a warrant. They will still be able to get our library records but it won't be easy to get everybody's.
 
2013-07-03 08:24:27 AM  
Great! This will let all the ITGs here feel like they actually did something!
 
2013-07-03 08:25:38 AM  
Aren't most Americans calling for Snowden's head?
 
2013-07-03 08:26:18 AM  
In other news. Most of the country unintentionally joins the protest simply by being drunk and barely missing lighting their testicles on fire with fireworks
 
2013-07-03 08:26:20 AM  

whatshisname: Aren't most Americans calling for Snowden's head?


The easily distracted ones, yes.
 
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