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(Daily Mail)   Washington State to remove 'gender biased language'. Terms such as 'fisherman', 'freshman' and even 'journeyman plumber' to be replaced with 'fisher', 'first-year-student' and 'journey-level plumber'   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 151
    More: Stupid, Washington, National Women's Law Center, sexisms, gender neutral, Democratic Governor Jay Inslee, civil engineers  
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2125 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Jul 2013 at 8:32 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-03 10:57:36 AM

cig-mkr: And change manpower to person power while your'e at it.


That change is already here.  It's referred to as FTE (full-time-equivalent) hours.
 
2013-07-03 10:57:40 AM

WhippingBoy: Qellaqan: Why am I still surprised that there is such a cadre of men that apparently get their knickers in an enormous wad over this? There is some evidence that language biases perception, and it's not going to hurt anyone.

\At my university, the freshmen are all called first-years because Saint Jefferson said no one ever stops learning.
\\It's stupid, but whatever, you get used to it.

We're not the ones changing the language, sunshine. It seems to me that the one's getting their knickers in a wad are the ones changing the words.


You should be one to speak of sunshine. On any thread remotely related to feminism, there you are to scoff at it. Clearly you have nothing but a vague academic interest in the topic. I find it very sad, actually. The MRA stuff can seem silly or even offensive to me, but I am not trolling around fending it off at every turn either.

As to your point, one doesn't have to be frothing at the mouth in order to implement linguistic changes in a government setting. Language is fluid, government is monolithic. To incorporate linguistic evolution, at some point you need to implement a step change. It's not that big a deal.

\Correcting my earlier vague language, we know that linguistic usage can bias people's perceptions. The changes suggested here are very minor, at worst they are completely irrelevant, and certainly not damaging.
 
2013-07-03 11:10:03 AM

Grumpy Cat: MythDragon: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 850x468]
"The English language is all about subliminal domination. Take the word "semester". It's a perfect example of this school's discriminatory preference of semen to ovaries. That's why I ' m petitioning to have next term be referred to as Winter Ovester

That's my friend's sister. Good to see her on Fark.

/CSS


She's not really like that, right?

/Is she single?
 
2013-07-03 11:15:11 AM

Qellaqan: In chinese, there isn't gender to pronouns, and that seems so much nicer to me. I'd like to be able to talk about someone and not necessarily identify their gender to the listener, if it's irrelevant to them. The way we use pronouns, no matter what we're talking about, the gender of the subject is always brought up. Especially in writing (particular my own interest, science fiction) I'd love a widely accepted pronoun that's gender neuter


Not everyone wishes this.  I prefer less ambiguity in language and would be irritated by making it less precise.  I want as much information as possible in the most concise manner possible.  Linguistically neutering people is incompatible with my desires in language.
 
2013-07-03 11:21:28 AM

MythDragon: Grumpy Cat: MythDragon: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 850x468]
"The English language is all about subliminal domination. Take the word "semester". It's a perfect example of this school's discriminatory preference of semen to ovaries. That's why I ' m petitioning to have next term be referred to as Winter Ovester

That's my friend's sister. Good to see her on Fark.

/CSS

She's not really like that, right?

/Is she single?



She's a cool woman. Lesbian, if that matters. Not single.
 
2013-07-03 11:29:35 AM
Man/Woman comes from the old Saxon where Wifmann was female and a Wermann was male, and mann was just a person.

There's far more important female rights to be fighting for than this sort of shiat.
 
2013-07-03 11:29:52 AM

Gergesa: Qellaqan: In chinese, there isn't gender to pronouns, and that seems so much nicer to me. I'd like to be able to talk about someone and not necessarily identify their gender to the listener, if it's irrelevant to them. The way we use pronouns, no matter what we're talking about, the gender of the subject is always brought up. Especially in writing (particular my own interest, science fiction) I'd love a widely accepted pronoun that's gender neuter

Not everyone wishes this.  I prefer less ambiguity in language and would be irritated by making it less precise.  I want as much information as possible in the most concise manner possible.  Linguistically neutering people is incompatible with my desires in language.


Lucky for you, we already have those words, and they are only made imprecise by trying to use them for wider situations. My suggestion would add a new word that is specifically unspecified. If you want a language that does as much as possible with as few words as possible, try esperanto. In english, we have millions of vague and overlapping words. I see no reason for there not to be a word like I've mentioned.

Also, if gender is irrelevant to the discussion, as it often is, what is the need for it to be unambiguous? Not to mention that only having these words can also *create* confusion. Haven't you ever had that worry when you're sending an email to an adult woman-- is this mrs or ms? Likewise, some names are gender ambiguous (I am terrible with chinese and japanese names), and referring to the person by the wrong gendered pronoun can make you look like a rube.

\This is just off the top of my head. Really, you're irked by language that doesn't specifically tell you the gender of the person? Firemen can still be women, you know, even if you call them firemen.
 
2013-07-03 11:30:07 AM
I wonder what poor manicured gentlewoman will be mandated to manupilate her manservant into manhandling all those manuscripts and manupilate them till all manner of manliness have been mangled from them.
 
2013-07-03 11:32:04 AM

Kraln: Man/Woman comes from the old Saxon where Wifmann was female and a Wermann was male, and mann was just a person.

There's far more important female rights to be fighting for than this sort of shiat.


Ancient saxon is kind of irrelevant to modern perception, however. I don't disagree that it isn't the most important thing, but damn it also seems to irritate people impressively. Maybe it matters to them more than they're willing to admit?
 
2013-07-03 11:45:53 AM
Why is that stupid? Language is fluid. It changes.
 
2013-07-03 11:56:47 AM

Qellaqan: If you want a language that does as much as possible with as few words as possible, try esperanto.


Sadly, I do not have the time or money to take up the study of another language.

Qellaqan: In english, we have millions of vague and overlapping words.


This is a problem that I would try to to eliminate not encourage with creation or use of more imprecise words.

Qellaqan: Also, if gender is irrelevant to the discussion, as it often is, what is the need for it to be unambiguous?


You confuse need with desire.

Qellaqan: Haven't you ever had that worry when you're sending an email to an adult woman-- is this mrs or ms?


No.  Ms. is the accepted form for those adult women whose marital status is uncertain.  It is still provides more information than a genderless pronoun.

Qellaqan: Likewise, some names are gender ambiguous


A terrible bother that irritates me when I encounter it.  Typically in such cases I try to rely on secondary sources to discern the gender.  That however demonstrates why such ambiguity is undesirable.

Qellaqan: Really, you're irked by language that doesn't specifically tell you the gender of the person?


Yes.  I dislike ambiguity and wish to have as many variables as possible eliminated.

Qellaqan: Firemen can still be women, you know, even if you call them firemen.


In some cases, inefficiency or imprecision in language may be inescapable.  Though I see the word "firefighters" more often in usage and I admit that sometimes being imprecise is necessary, I do not wish to encourage it by eliminating pronouns that reveal gender.  Wherever practical, I wish as much information as possible to be conveyed.
 
2013-07-03 12:01:24 PM

cig-mkr: And change manpower to person power while your'e at it.


Personhole Cover.

Persondibles

Personually (also, Instruction Personual)

Oh Come, Oh Come Empersonuel (also, Away in the Personger)

Personed Spaceflight

Cowperson Up
 
2013-07-03 12:02:58 PM

Gergesa: Qellaqan: If you want a language that does as much as possible with as few words as possible, try esperanto.

Sadly, I do not have the time or money to take up the study of another language.

Qellaqan: In english, we have millions of vague and overlapping words.

This is a problem that I would try to to eliminate not encourage with creation or use of more imprecise words.

Qellaqan: Also, if gender is irrelevant to the discussion, as it often is, what is the need for it to be unambiguous?

You confuse need with desire.

Qellaqan: Haven't you ever had that worry when you're sending an email to an adult woman-- is this mrs or ms?

No.  Ms. is the accepted form for those adult women whose marital status is uncertain.  It is still provides more information than a genderless pronoun.

Qellaqan: Likewise, some names are gender ambiguous

A terrible bother that irritates me when I encounter it.  Typically in such cases I try to rely on secondary sources to discern the gender.  That however demonstrates why such ambiguity is undesirable.

Qellaqan: Really, you're irked by language that doesn't specifically tell you the gender of the person?

Yes.  I dislike ambiguity and wish to have as many variables as possible eliminated.

Qellaqan: Firemen can still be women, you know, even if you call them firemen.

In some cases, inefficiency or imprecision in language may be inescapable.  Though I see the word "firefighters" more often in usage and I admit that sometimes being imprecise is necessary, I do not wish to encourage it by eliminating pronouns that reveal gender.  Wherever practical, I wish as much information as possible to be conveyed.


Language *is* imprecision. That's why being clear in writing is an art, not a science. Unless you are a mathematician, where precision is the whole game, I really can't take you seriously.

Plus, you didn't even respond to my point where a gender unspecified word would already have obvious and clear cut usage, such as the chinese name. Think of it as akin to the word "trees", rather than elm or oak or spruce. I look at trees, I don't know what kind they are, so they're trees. I see a name, I don't know what gender it is, I use the all-encompassing gender pronoun.

\The world is vague, sorry this seems so distressing.
 
2013-07-03 12:13:35 PM
Were there really people out there who were still referring to security guards as watchmen?
 
2013-07-03 12:15:08 PM

Qellaqan: Plus, you didn't even respond to my point where a gender unspecified word would already have obvious and clear cut usage, such as the chinese name. Think of it as akin to the word "trees", rather than elm or oak or spruce. I look at trees, I don't know what kind they are, so they're trees.


I did.  Read again. I said "wherever practical, I wish as much information as possible to be conveyed." I do not desire a less precise world by eliminating gender pronouns.  As for Asian names, I encounter them occasionally and they demonstrate why gender pronouns are desirable from my point of view.

It is clear though that we have different desires in language so no agreement will ever be reached.
 
2013-07-03 12:18:52 PM

NJR_ZA: I wonder what poor manicured gentlewoman will be mandated to manupilate her manservant into manhandling all those manuscripts and manupilate them till all manner of manliness have been mangled from them.


You said 'man' like a dozen times.
 
2013-07-03 12:19:11 PM

Gergesa: Qellaqan: Plus, you didn't even respond to my point where a gender unspecified word would already have obvious and clear cut usage, such as the chinese name. Think of it as akin to the word "trees", rather than elm or oak or spruce. I look at trees, I don't know what kind they are, so they're trees.

I did.  Read again. I said "wherever practical, I wish as much information as possible to be conveyed." I do not desire a less precise world by eliminating gender pronouns.  As for Asian names, I encounter them occasionally and they demonstrate why gender pronouns are desirable from my point of view.

It is clear though that we have different desires in language so no agreement will ever be reached.


What they're trying to do is remove gender from having any meaning in society, since it shouldn't.
 
2013-07-03 12:23:28 PM

jbrooks544: You know what female fishermen call themselves?
Fishermen.


I enjoy fly fishing and when I met my future brother-in-law (AKA my idiot brother-in-law), he said, "So I hear you're a big fisher." Our relationship went downhill from there.
 
2013-07-03 01:03:18 PM

WhippingBoy: I used to go on the defensive a bit whenever anyone told me that they were a feminist. Now I just laugh and laugh and laugh.


I'll just put this here:

ebooks-imgs.eb.sonynei.com

It's a funny read.  Partisan, but funny.
 
2013-07-03 01:19:06 PM
Guess what liberal douchebags, I'm a journeyman plumber. Find me a female in a job site that isn't from the corporate office and I'll eat my pants.

Neutered indeed.
 
2013-07-03 01:20:32 PM

Lexx: Gergesa: Qellaqan: Plus, you didn't even respond to my point where a gender unspecified word would already have obvious and clear cut usage, such as the chinese name. Think of it as akin to the word "trees", rather than elm or oak or spruce. I look at trees, I don't know what kind they are, so they're trees.

I did.  Read again. I said "wherever practical, I wish as much information as possible to be conveyed." I do not desire a less precise world by eliminating gender pronouns.  As for Asian names, I encounter them occasionally and they demonstrate why gender pronouns are desirable from my point of view.

It is clear though that we have different desires in language so no agreement will ever be reached.

What they're trying to do is remove gender from having any meaning in society, since it shouldn't.


Yes, exactly. You've said several sensible things in this thread, which is notable in this thread. Gergesa (this would be a great place for a neutral pronoun, since I don't know his or her gender) keeps talking past me, but this is the point I'm aiming at... and perhaps missing.
 
2013-07-03 01:35:29 PM

Qellaqan: Lexx: Gergesa: Qellaqan: Plus, you didn't even respond to my point where a gender unspecified word would already have obvious and clear cut usage, such as the chinese name. Think of it as akin to the word "trees", rather than elm or oak or spruce. I look at trees, I don't know what kind they are, so they're trees.

I did.  Read again. I said "wherever practical, I wish as much information as possible to be conveyed." I do not desire a less precise world by eliminating gender pronouns.  As for Asian names, I encounter them occasionally and they demonstrate why gender pronouns are desirable from my point of view.

It is clear though that we have different desires in language so no agreement will ever be reached.

What they're trying to do is remove gender from having any meaning in society, since it shouldn't.

Yes, exactly. You've said several sensible things in this thread, which is notable in this thread. Gergesa (this would be a great place for a neutral pronoun, since I don't know his or her gender) keeps talking past me, but this is the point I'm aiming at... and perhaps missing.


It's a perspective difference, I think.  We're not arguing for obfuscating important (gender) information from public discourse, we're arguing that gender is not important, significant, or relevant to public discourse, and thus we should shift the commonly used terminology to remove reference to gender.  Gergesa considers gender to always be relevant, and is thus annoyed at the idea of removing it.
 
2013-07-03 02:28:39 PM
The state senate spent so much time deciding this stuff they couldn't pass a budget. Took the threat of the whole state shutting down to get them to pass one.I love this state, I can't stand the elected officials.
 
2013-07-03 03:56:14 PM

Fade2black: Guess what liberal douchebags, I'm a journeyman plumber. Find me a female in a job site that isn't from the corporate office and I'll eat my pants.

Neutered indeed.


I'll back you on this because I'm a welder. Woman typically don't go to tech schools, they don't become apprentices, and they sure as hell don't do construction (Unless you count holding the STOP/SLOW sign). All that this is is a group of people  wanting to be able to shout "I DID SOMETHING, REMEMBER THAT IN 2014!." Will anyone actually care? Will foremen start calling people "apprentice-level welders"? Will women strip off their bras after casting off the sexist title of "freshMAN?" No, no one is honestly going to give two shiats, and it's most likely going to be completely ignored because it only affects thin-skinned pussies.
 
2013-07-03 03:58:03 PM
What is the true etymology of 'man' as a prefix or suffix anyway? I always assumed it meant 'hand' or 'person' or something like that: maniupluate, manifestation, manuscript, manual of dexterity...

I figured that any assumption of maleness just evolved from the cartoonishly sexist nature of the societies we get our words from. My thinking was that for those cultures 'man' implies 'male' for the same reason they assumed 'person' or 'human' implied being a male. We now include females as people, so we should also linguistically include them in the term fisherman.

I'm still wondering how people are stupid enough to think 'woman' is usable as an adjective though. "That's Dennis. He's a man nurse!" I want to punch people sometimes.
 
2013-07-03 03:59:21 PM
Is Pussy still okay?
 
2013-07-03 04:02:55 PM

Calm: What is the true etymology of 'man' as a prefix or suffix anyway? I always assumed it meant 'hand' or 'person' or something like that: maniupluate, manifestation, manuscript, manual of dexterity...


Man, in those words you give, comes from Latin  Manus, hand. That said, I don't think the etymology of Man is the same. I think that's from Proto-Germanic, via English?
 
2013-07-03 04:08:35 PM

LasersHurt: Man, in those words you give, comes from Latin  Manus, hand. That said, I don't think the etymology of Man is the same. I think that's from Proto-Germanic, via English?


After I posted, I realized I was only using it as a prefix. According to the interwebs, it means human, person, or male. Which just re-raises my burning questions. Does it now imply male because females weren't considered people? Was it always specific to males? Can journalists who use woman as an adjective be legally shot for the good of mankind?
 
2013-07-03 04:20:11 PM
"Stupid" tag is for subby using the "stupid" tag.

Women outnumber men in this country.  How about we use "chairwoman" for YOUR title, dude? How does that feel?

/"Girl" is supposedly a COMPLIMENT at my age. Yet if I call a grown man "boy"....
 
2013-07-03 04:21:54 PM

Calm: LasersHurt: Man, in those words you give, comes from Latin  Manus, hand. That said, I don't think the etymology of Man is the same. I think that's from Proto-Germanic, via English?

After I posted, I realized I was only using it as a prefix. According to the interwebs, it means human, person, or male. Which just re-raises my burning questions. Does it now imply male because females weren't considered people? Was it always specific to males? Can journalists who use woman as an adjective be legally shot for the good of mankind?


Women have always been considered people, and throughout history have been seen as far more valuable than men. As long as men want to fark, 95% of women are going to be treated far better than the average male.

To test this out punch both a man and a woman in a crowd, see which scenario leads to your ass being kicked the fastest.
 
2013-07-03 04:23:55 PM

stevarooni: The use of "he or she" is awkward and inefficient, and generally a waste of time.  "First World Problems," indeed.  When someone violates 1 USC § 1, prosecute them for it.  When someone offends you by saying "policeman", get over yourself.


It's always a man, isn't it, who can't handle a little change that benefits society?

/Did you like that sexism there, dude? That I assumed you were a man? Or do you still think it's a compliment that I did so?
 
2013-07-03 04:34:08 PM

GUTSU: Women have always been considered people, and throughout history have been seen as far more valuable than men. As long as men want to fark, 95% of women are going to be treated far better than the average male.

To test this out punch both a man and a woman in a crowd, see which scenario leads to your ass being kicked the fastest.


I think you're either trolling or got a very bad grade in many history courses, both religious and secular. I'm assuming the former and am going to go to Taco Bell now. Most of the punching there is done by wage slaves at a computer terminal.
 
2013-07-03 04:34:24 PM

GUTSU: Women have always been considered people, and throughout history have been seen as far more valuable than men. As long as men want to fark, 95% of women are going to be treated far better than the average male.


Are you not including the rest of the world, or are you high?
 
2013-07-03 04:35:41 PM
Suck it up people, this is for the dames and broads!
 
2013-07-03 04:46:00 PM

Calm: GUTSU: Women have always been considered people, and throughout history have been seen as far more valuable than men. As long as men want to fark, 95% of women are going to be treated far better than the average male.

To test this out punch both a man and a woman in a crowd, see which scenario leads to your ass being kicked the fastest.

I think you're either trolling or got a very bad grade in many history courses, both religious and secular. I'm assuming the former and am going to go to Taco Bell now. Most of the punching there is done by wage slaves at a computer terminal.


As an example, in Islam a woman can have a job and whatever money she makes is hers to keep, her husband can't use any of it without explicit permission. She isn't obligated to use that money on other people, if shes making a few million dollars a year she could let her children starve because it isn't her responsibility. Her husband on the other hand is required to feed his family, support her, and even pay the taxes for his wife's money. The reason why in places like Afghanistan, girls are heavily discouraged, even through violence from getting an education is that they would potentially take the job of a man who would have to support the woman regardless.

The reason why there is a disparity between women and men in china is partly because women aren't obligated to provide for their elderly parents. Since couples can only have one child, they prefer to pick the one that will care for them.

Even in America men pay out a disproportionate amount of alimony, women get the kids far more often, and aren't required to sign up for selective service. Funnily enough you never hear very many feminists yelling about how being ineligible for the draft is sexist.
 
2013-07-03 04:49:58 PM
Instead of him/her, how about shelr?
 
2013-07-03 04:50:37 PM
Okay, so, Obvious Troll is Obvious, then?
 
2013-07-03 04:57:34 PM

LasersHurt: Okay, so, Obvious Troll is Obvious, then?


Hey man, if you don't have anything to disprove me you can just admit it. You aren't going to get any handjobs for being a White Knight on fark.
 
2013-07-03 05:04:06 PM

GUTSU: LasersHurt: Okay, so, Obvious Troll is Obvious, then?

Hey man, if you don't have anything to disprove me you can just admit it. You aren't going to get any handjobs for being a White Knight on fark.


Interesting. I didn't mention you by name at all. Odd that you assumed I meant that YOU were the obvious troll...

/tipped your hand
 
2013-07-03 05:09:24 PM

LasersHurt: GUTSU: LasersHurt: Okay, so, Obvious Troll is Obvious, then?

Hey man, if you don't have anything to disprove me you can just admit it. You aren't going to get any handjobs for being a White Knight on fark.

Interesting. I didn't mention you by name at all. Odd that you assumed I meant that YOU were the obvious troll...

/tipped your hand


Since you previously quoted me, and then posted "Obvious Troll is Obvious" after my post, I inferred it. But still, you don't have to defend feminism on the internet, go to a bar, a cafe and make small talk with some women. You're chances are astronomically better than from defending lilly white virgin maidens on the internet.
 
2013-07-03 05:11:51 PM

GUTSU: Since you previously quoted me, and then posted "Obvious Troll is Obvious" after my post, I inferred it. But still, you don't have to defend feminism on the internet, go to a bar, a cafe and make small talk with some women. You're chances are astronomically better than from defending lilly white virgin maidens on the internet.


The hard thing with trolls is this: Either they are trolls, and any attempt to ACTUALLY speak to their points is futile and pointless, or they're NOT trolls, but so mindbogglingly stupid as to make speaking to their points futile and pointless.
 
2013-07-03 05:12:08 PM
What I love about fark is that I know, without even reading the comments, that there are totally fitting and appropriate Carlin references up there.

/
 
2013-07-03 05:40:53 PM

mayIFark: Can I get a new fatherboard for my new computer, please?


The term has been "mainboard" for awhile now. You're way late to the game.
/builds pcs
 
2013-07-03 05:44:10 PM

Ecobuckeye: What are the alternatives to manholes, guy-wires, and buoys?


Underground access, stabilizers, not applicable.
/next question
 
2013-07-03 06:38:58 PM

ramblinwreck: Lexx: Kevua: So are they going to get rid of Women also? Make it Wo? or Ho? or I don't know, anything that doesn't have man in it?

Womyn.  You hadn't heard?

Joke's on the wimminfolk, then, because they've just inserted a "Y" chromosome into their name.


It's even more funny when you realize that the -man part of woman means human (the wo- means female). By using the term womyn, they are effectlvely implying that woman aren't even human.

/Men were weremen, which means we should call female werewolves wowolves
 
2013-07-03 09:36:45 PM

GUTSU: Women have always been considered people, and throughout history have been seen as far more valuable than men.


Really? You mean the same "people" who (in the US) less than 100 years ago could not vote, get a checking account or use a credit card without their husband's permission, and whose own names (the ones they were given at birth) are still called "maiden names" which should be relinquished when they get married, along with a whole host of societal restrictions by law and by custom, including having men decide when and where and how they should have children?

Those people?

Women have only been seen as people within living memory, and barely that long. They have been seen as "possessions" throughout recorded history and custom, such as the woman's father or other male relative "giving the bride away", and when I was a kid in the 60's and 70's the local newspaper still published it's want ads in two sections - "male help wanted" and "female help wanted".

/I knows you's trollin'
//male
 
2013-07-04 03:20:26 AM
Gotta change my name?

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-07-04 08:26:23 AM
It took a minute but here it is: ReelGals Fishing Club.  Tried to get it off the ground and into the water, but lil ladies just didnt have the tackle.
 
2013-07-04 10:07:47 AM
What's wrong with using the term "fresher"?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fresher
 
2013-07-04 04:26:08 PM
This doesn't change that fact that women require romantic partners to make more money than them and generally don't want to do the jobs that end in -man.

As feminism marches on, women will become more and more depressed in their 30s due to being forced into roles not suited to their biology and near impossibility of finding any suitable man who can make enough to cover most of the bills while they work easy fluff jobs.
 
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