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(Washington Post)   Did the President of Bolivia just smuggle Edward Snowden out of Russia?   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 52
    More: Interesting, Evo Morales, President of Bolivia, Bolivia, Russia, Russian President Vladimir Putin, Maduro, Moscow Airport, Russia Today  
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11398 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Jul 2013 at 8:04 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-02 07:54:51 PM
9 votes:
I don't understand why "Where in the world is Edward Snowden?" is the big story instead of the government programs he exposed and the money they spent doing it. I always figured it was happening anyway but damn they spent a lot of money.
2013-07-02 07:43:38 PM
6 votes:
They should a Doppler radar tracking showing where he is. Like Santa Claus.
2013-07-02 09:36:33 PM
5 votes:

ThrobblefootSpectre: Heck, I think  every whackadoodle who complains how horrible and oppressive life in the U.S. is should move to Bolivia.


Well, as far as I'm concerned after the complete legislative train wreck that was the 111th Congress, between  Citizens United and redistricting coming down the pike in the 112th, the electorate had  one opportunity left to get the country heading anywhere but off the nearest, tallest cliff. The country raised its head and spoke with one voice, "DERP!".

Now we live in a country in which corporations are people, money is speech, talking heads and shills are policy elite, a minority is a mandate, enforcing tax law is a scandal in and of itself, transparency and accountability are memories, and voting rights are being willfully thrown away by its own electorate. We're the world's richest third-world kleptocracy, and we have  exactly the government we deserve.
2013-07-02 08:06:51 PM
5 votes:

Gwendolyn: I don't understand why "Where in the world is Edward Snowden?" is the big story instead of the government programs he exposed and the money they spent doing it. I always figured it was happening anyway but damn they spent a lot of money.


Because they want you to focus on the farce, and discourage anyone else from doing the same thing.
2013-07-02 08:53:17 PM
4 votes:

gfid: I'd rather be middle class in the US than anything less than super rich in Bolivia.


It is not enough that our standards might be higher than those someplace else. We do not succeed by comparing ourselves to others. Our standards should be set based upon our ideals. Our actual nation has never, at any point in history, lived up to the lofty ideals we set for ourselves. We are a nation built on slavery and genocide. When that ran out, we moved onto the oppression of the workers. Then our sins were defended as "necessary in the face of the Communist threat". Then it was drugs. Now it's terrorists.

The excuses are irrelevant. We should not look at these sorts of programs as "necessary evils", but as mistakes. They move us farther from our ideals- we cease to be a shining city on the hill, and look much more like just another sloppy country with too many secrets.
2013-07-02 10:05:13 PM
3 votes:
shame on the USA for lying and spying on its citizens

shame on the world for not offering Snowden refuge from a rogue police state

shame on American citizens for standing around with thumbs in mouths with nothing to say
yet again, as their freedoms and rights are stripped from them over and over and over

why you don't take your country back while there is still a system in place that would allow it
is beyond me.

your right to a fair trial is gone now, you do know that don't you, 'terrorist'?

what's next?  your right to free speech fo shizzle.
2013-07-02 08:35:11 PM
3 votes:
This soap opera amuses me. Snowden clearly thought that everybody would rally around him, he would be seen as noble and righteous and countries would line up to fete him. Instead he's being rejected left and right, he can't find a country to take him, and he's criticizing the US for violating his rights and other blah after he blatantly and publicly violated US laws.

I don't think he thought his cunning plan the whole way through.
2013-07-03 12:44:24 AM
2 votes:

Silverstaff: oren0: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.

Since when did they do that?

I haven't seen anything out of PRISM that violates the fourth amendment.

FISA Court being used to issue search warrants, that fits Amendment IV requirements for a specific search.
Broad metadata sweeps, no personal identifying information, not an Amendment IV issue.

PRISM certainly looks like it was very carefully designed to hew to the exact limits of what they could do and stay within Fourth Amendment limitations.


"No Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized "

Anyone who believes that a FISA warrant for the communications of all Americans meets this standard needs a remedial civics course.

Congress passed a law forbidding the NSA from targeting US citizens in the US. The NSA's legal interpretation of that was that it allowed them to intercept all communications from Americans because they could do that without "targeting" individuals. If there's anything to be learned here, the intelligence apparatus doesn't care about rights, the law, or the constitution.
2013-07-02 11:24:10 PM
2 votes:

Disgruntled Goat: Four, count 'em, FOUR greenlights to Main today about this guy.

This is farking absurd.


What is absurd is the fact that Snowden is the story and not what we have allowed our government to strip from us in the interest of "safety."

THAT is what is absurd about this.

Snowden should be next to anonymous. The story is the fact that we have no civil rights and that our Constitution is viewed by this President as "flawed." That Bush started this program and that this President, a Constitutional scholar, did not immediately put an end to it. Why do we even know Snowden's whereabouts?

In both the Bush and Obama administrations, Woodward and Bernstein would be wanted criminals--traitors to the United States (just as many have called Greenwald for running this story). 40 years ago, they brought down a Presidency, won a Pulitzer (The Post, for which they worked, won a Pulitzer for having done a public service for breaking the Watergate scandal), and are accounted as having done the greatest journalistic work of all time. Personally, I'm more interested in what Bernstein and Woodward have to say about the situation with Greenwald and Snowden (haven't been able to find anything yet) than politicians and these hack reporters of today.
2013-07-02 11:05:36 PM
2 votes:

oren0: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.


Since when did they do that?

I haven't seen anything out of PRISM that violates the fourth amendment.

FISA Court being used to issue search warrants, that fits Amendment IV requirements for a specific search.
Broad metadata sweeps, no personal identifying information, not an Amendment IV issue.

PRISM certainly looks like it was very carefully designed to hew to the exact limits of what they could do and stay within Fourth Amendment limitations.
2013-07-02 09:34:31 PM
2 votes:
To address the "End of the cold war" comment from up top:  I wonder if they rejected Snowden because they are drifting toward our values, or because they can empathize with our stance on surveillance?
2013-07-02 09:30:05 PM
2 votes:
Heck, I think  every whackadoodle who complains how horrible and oppressive life in the U.S. is should move to Bolivia.
2013-07-02 09:10:59 PM
2 votes:

Gwendolyn: I don't understand why "Where in the world is Edward Snowden?" is the big story instead of the government programs he exposed and the money they spent doing it. I always figured it was happening anyway but damn they spent a lot of money.


Because it's funny in its irony. Snowden said he exposed the story of the programs because he doesn't like how corrupt the government is to its own citizens. So, where does he flee to for asylum? Countries with even worse track records against its citizens than the country he fled from. Like trying to expose the corruption of the police force and fleeing to the mafia for protection. He's like going from one James Bond villain country of origin to another James Bond villain country of origin while waving the banner of being a honest, wholesome hero of the people. Like I said, it's funny. And it's fun placing bets to see what's the next country he is going to flee to. I am betting he is going end up in Iran.
2013-07-02 09:09:43 PM
2 votes:
This whole bullshiat drama in a nutshell:

1) We have a law that protects people who are legitimate whistleblowers. It's pretty straight forward - if you reveal illegal activity, you are free from prosecution.
2) This law is in place so that people who find things morally or politically objectionable don't take it upon themselves to reveal sensitive information because of their political persuasion and instead only reveal information when the acts are actually illegal.
3) If Edward Snowden revealed illegal acts on behalf of the government, then he is protected under the whistleblower law. If he did not, then he's probably a narcissist who really stepped in it.

Personally, I don't feel that it's very important to get him into custody now. It's way more important to establish the legality of the acts that he revealed. If they are deemed to be illegal, then the problem solves itself and he can go on Good Morning America and write a book and retire with his ballet dancer girlfriend. Good for him.

If they are however deemed to be legal, then we need to hunt him to the ends of the earth to deter future narcissists from deciding on their own what the government should and should not do in regards to national security.

I think the most unclear situation would be if the programs were deemed legal, but as other people have alluded to, something that we cannot stomach continuing in their current form. Great, we change this and the public is satisfied, but technically Snowden still broke the law. At that point I really don't know what to do because by law he needs to be prosecuted (this is my rational side speaking), but emotionally - I'd say let the farker live his life out someplace outside of the US.
2013-07-02 09:04:13 PM
2 votes:

Day_Old_Dutchie: It's disguising how our paranoid "leaders" are doing their goddamnedness to make an example of this guy,


Is it really paranoid though? If they just ignore stuff like this it is just likely to happen more often with people that have a grudge, or read something into a document that may or not be there. Even if you are fine with any individual set of leaks, sooner or later if you just let them have free rein, sooner or later someone is going to leak something really critical. I guess the problem I would have is whether someone like this would really get a fair trial, but that the government will chase them down should pretty much be expected no matter how liberal you are, or the government is supposed to be.

The thing that surprises me is that the president of a country can be grounded like this just on suspicion he might have him on board.
2013-07-02 09:04:10 PM
2 votes:

JonBuck: gfid: oren0: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.

Can you pinpoint that minute?  It isn't a recent thing.  The government has just gotten more brazen about it in recent years.

This sort of thing has been going on for decades in one form or another. When new technologies pop up they exist in a legal gray area until challenged in court. FISA itself was passed in 1978 to deal with what was at the time highly illegal surveillance.


From Wikipedia:

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 ("FISA") is a United States law which prescribes procedures for the physical and electronic surveillance and collection of "foreign intelligence information" between "foreign powers" and "agents of foreign powers" (which may include American citizens and permanent residents suspected of espionage or terrorism).
The interpretation of "agents of foreign powers" to include every US citizen is the novel part. I'd say that was exactly the moment when the NSA went off the rails.
2013-07-02 08:09:39 PM
2 votes:
It'll be a long time before the next whistle blower ever reveals anything the Government is doing illegally. I wonder if Snowden should just come back to the U.S.
2013-07-03 07:07:32 AM
1 votes:
Reroutings will continue until Morales improves
2013-07-02 10:22:47 PM
1 votes:

HK-MP5-SD: We basically forced a diplomatic flight carrying a head of state to land in Europe.


The USA had nothing to do with the plane being diverted, take off the tin foil.
2013-07-02 10:21:26 PM
1 votes:

thisisyourbrainonFark: The plot thickens ... this is interesting as hell.


Yeah,
We basically forced a diplomatic flight carrying a head of state to land in Europe.  Nice and subtle, "Land in Europe or you will run out of fuel and crash in the south atlantic, your choice".  What I don't understand was what they thought they would accomplish besides pissing off half of South America and Russia.  They couldn't have expected Bolivia to kick him off the plane wherever it landed, or expect them to allow police from whatever country they landed in to search the plane.  If he was on the plane he is going to Bolivia and we just delayed him 12 hours, if not we pissed off a lot of people for nothing.
2013-07-02 10:18:27 PM
1 votes:
Many European countries on the list - including Austria, Finland, Ireland, the Netherlands, Norway, Spain and Switzerland - said he would have to make his request on their soil.
 -=-

Because these countries suck the American dick and would hand you over in a throb... er... heartbeat.
2013-07-02 09:59:49 PM
1 votes:
There's only going to be one real question if Snowden is captured:

Did he recover the Superbowl Ring?
2013-07-02 09:39:01 PM
1 votes:

Yogimus: To address the "End of the cold war" comment from up top:  I wonder if they rejected Snowden because they are drifting toward our values, or because they can empathize with our stance on surveillance?


Russia? Nah, I get the sense it may have been a "I told them we already gots one [everybody snarfs laughing behind the battlements]" moment on the part of Putin.
2013-07-02 09:19:14 PM
1 votes:

Gwendolyn: I don't understand why "Where in the world is Edward Snowden?" is the big story instead of the government programs he exposed and the money they spent doing it. I always figured it was happening anyway but damn they spent a lot of money.


Well, one is just the confirmation of an open secret for over a decade, that  nobody besides the "fringe lunatic unpatriotic lib-u-lardos" seemed to care about until Jan. 20, 2009. The other's just...well, kinda fun.

What, you want people like me to  continue griping about something about which we've been griping since the PATRIOT Act passed, long after we turned blue in the face, passed out, woke back up, kept griping, and eventually gave up out of sheer frustration? Screw that noise.
2013-07-02 09:15:42 PM
1 votes:
I don't get it. What did Snowden reveal that was not public knowledge ever since Echelon went online decades ago ?

I can't for one second believe that the CIA is the only national intelligence agency in the world doing this. Gathering intelligence requires intercepting communications. It always has. Any intelligence agency that does not listen in on communications is grossly derelict in its duties. Today, in a time where there are more methods of communicating than at any other time in history, it follows that there would be more expensive and sophisticated methods of intercepting communications than at any other time in history.
2013-07-02 09:15:03 PM
1 votes:

xria: The thing that surprises me is that the president of a country can be grounded like this just on suspicion he might have him on board.


Yes, that part is outrageous. I hope Morales doesn't reroute AF1 in retaliation.

And answer me this: Why did the plane go to Austria? They were in Spain to refuel, heading toward Bolivia, which is a sort of westerly direction last time I checked. Oops! We're going north east, sorry!

This has Biden's paw prints all over it.
2013-07-02 09:10:26 PM
1 votes:
It would be interesting if another country, let's say Bolivia, or maybe Russia, suggested the idea of the UN doing sanctions to the US. And other countries rallied behind that.
2013-07-02 09:06:53 PM
1 votes:

Day_Old_Dutchie: It's disguising how our paranoid "leaders" are doing their goddamnedness to make an example of this guy,


How much, exactly, do you think they're trying to get him?  A few phone calls?  Commando teams?  Bomber fly overs?  Would you say they're spending BILLIONS?
2013-07-02 09:05:59 PM
1 votes:
This was just a trial balloon. "Leak" that he's on the Bolivian president's plane and see what happens. Then he leaves on the Venezuelan president's plane.
2013-07-02 09:03:20 PM
1 votes:
Did the President of Bolivia just smuggle Edward Snowden out of Russia?

And does anyone really give a rat's ass?
2013-07-02 09:03:16 PM
1 votes:

Yogimus: When we took the 1st combatant off a field of battle and tortured him for information. That was the minute.


So, 1776?
2013-07-02 08:58:54 PM
1 votes:
i39.tinypic.com
2013-07-02 08:56:39 PM
1 votes:

Yogimus: When we took the 1st combatant off a field of battle and tortured him for information. That was the minute.


Sooooo every war ever?
2013-07-02 08:56:00 PM
1 votes:
Heh. Someone should start planting tips that he's on planes all over the place. Shut. Down. EVERYTHING.
2013-07-02 08:51:54 PM
1 votes:

gfid: oren0: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.

Can you pinpoint that minute?  It isn't a recent thing.  The government has just gotten more brazen about it in recent years.


When we took the 1st combatant off a field of battle and tortured him for information. That was the minute.
2013-07-02 08:51:40 PM
1 votes:

gfid: oren0: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.

Can you pinpoint that minute?  It isn't a recent thing.  The government has just gotten more brazen about it in recent years.


This sort of thing has been going on for decades in one form or another. When new technologies pop up they exist in a legal gray area until challenged in court. FISA itself was passed in 1978 to deal with what was at the time highly illegal surveillance.
2013-07-02 08:50:11 PM
1 votes:
He should've just made everything he had public, and then put a gun to his head.

When you cross Uncle Sam, there's no turning back. The government does not appreciate being embarrassed.
2013-07-02 08:50:04 PM
1 votes:

djkutch: Didn't Bartlet disappear a plane? The Bermuda Triangle is crazy.


The United States does not engage in regime change through assassination. :)

Where's that Hunt For Red October pic? This could get ugly, and if it does it will get ugly in a hurry.

/if you want know why, swap Bolivia's Pres for US's Obama and see how that scenario plays out. We have to rescue our President from a country in Europe? Oh someone's about to have a very bad day. Rerouting presidents is bad precedent. (Hehe)
2013-07-02 08:49:17 PM
1 votes:
So sick of this dude...

Yeah, I'll do it for me:
[welcomeofark.jpg]
2013-07-02 08:42:39 PM
1 votes:

Adolf Oliver Nipples: This soap opera amuses me. Snowden clearly thought that everybody would rally around him, he would be seen as noble and righteous and countries would line up to fete him. Instead he's being rejected left and right, he can't find a country to take him, and he's criticizing the US for violating his rights and other blah after he blatantly and publicly violated US laws.

I don't think he thought his cunning plan the whole way through.


Nonsense. Everybody has to get their digs in and make a big show so that they can milk the incident for all its worth. What is interesting about how this is playing out is this: despite all the talk when push comes to shove neither China nor Russia has an interest in harboring him while it is Latin America that is thumbing its nose at America. That's quite a turn about from 20 years ago. What this whole incident shows me is that the last trickles of the Cold War have played out and new world alignments are taking form.
2013-07-02 08:41:36 PM
1 votes:

astouffer: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

At least in countries like that the corruption is outright and not taking place in secret courts.


Yes, I suppose so.  I'd rather be middle class in the US than anything less than super rich in Bolivia.  of course, it doesn't take as much to be super-rich down there.

I actually think most of South America is ripe for a Latino Spring  We may already be seeing it in Brazil and Bolivia has had its share of protests as well.  OTOH, maybe it's just business as usual.
2013-07-02 08:41:36 PM
1 votes:

gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy


Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.
2013-07-02 08:39:09 PM
1 votes:

make me some tea: He made it to Austria so far.


Austria said he had to be on their soil to apply, if he's on the plane, it's a step forward.
2013-07-02 08:32:03 PM
1 votes:
He planned this poorly it seems.
2013-07-02 08:29:44 PM
1 votes:
"Raw like Snowden straight from Bolivia"
2013-07-02 08:28:41 PM
1 votes:

gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy


At least in countries like that the corruption is outright and not taking place in secret courts.
2013-07-02 08:26:26 PM
1 votes:
Hmmm.  What's the protocol for asking/claiming a foreign military/presidential plane is lying about the passengers?
2013-07-02 08:10:01 PM
1 votes:

Gwendolyn: I don't understand why "Where in the world is Edward Snowden?" is the big story instead of the government programs he exposed and the money they spent doing it. I always figured it was happening anyway but damn they spent a lot of money.


Because, terrorists.

fear, Fear, FEAR citizen!
2013-07-02 08:09:26 PM
1 votes:
he has just raised a helmet on his rifle, and had it blown clean off
2013-07-02 08:08:06 PM
1 votes:
It's disguising how our paranoid "leaders" are doing their goddamnedness to make an example of this guy,
2013-07-02 07:44:59 PM
1 votes:

Godscrack: They should a Doppler radar tracking showing where he is. Like Santa Claus.


Wow. That was close.
2013-07-02 07:43:55 PM
1 votes:
Is there some sort of GPS tracking device we can plant on him? This would be so much easier.
 
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