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(Washington Post)   Did the President of Bolivia just smuggle Edward Snowden out of Russia?   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 153
    More: Interesting, Evo Morales, President of Bolivia, Bolivia, Russia, Russian President Vladimir Putin, Maduro, Moscow Airport, Russia Today  
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11395 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Jul 2013 at 8:04 PM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-02 07:29:46 PM
Well not to Boliva.
 
2013-07-02 07:34:56 PM
Meanwhile he was shipped in a cargo plane who left 10 minutes before and already landing at it's destination.
 
2013-07-02 07:37:11 PM
He made it to Austria so far.
 
2013-07-02 07:43:38 PM
They should a Doppler radar tracking showing where he is. Like Santa Claus.
 
2013-07-02 07:43:55 PM
Is there some sort of GPS tracking device we can plant on him? This would be so much easier.
 
2013-07-02 07:44:59 PM

Godscrack: They should a Doppler radar tracking showing where he is. Like Santa Claus.


Wow. That was close.
 
2013-07-02 07:54:51 PM
I don't understand why "Where in the world is Edward Snowden?" is the big story instead of the government programs he exposed and the money they spent doing it. I always figured it was happening anyway but damn they spent a lot of money.
 
2013-07-02 07:56:27 PM

cameroncrazy1984: Wow. That was close.


:-)
 
2013-07-02 08:04:10 PM
Standing in the dock at Southampton
Trying to get to Holland or France
The man in the mac said You've got to go back
You know they didn't even give us a chance

Christ you know it ain't easy
You know how hard it can be
The way things are going
They're going to crucify me
 
2013-07-02 08:06:51 PM

Gwendolyn: I don't understand why "Where in the world is Edward Snowden?" is the big story instead of the government programs he exposed and the money they spent doing it. I always figured it was happening anyway but damn they spent a lot of money.


Because they want you to focus on the farce, and discourage anyone else from doing the same thing.
 
2013-07-02 08:07:02 PM
25.media.tumblr.com

RIP Snuggle Bear
 
2013-07-02 08:07:21 PM

Gwendolyn: I don't understand why "Where in the world is Edward Snowden?" is the big story instead of the government programs he exposed and the money they spent doing it. I always figured it was happening anyway but damn they spent a lot of money.


Why do you think his name was released?  (Tinfoil hat) The real culprit is dead and buried. The "Snowden" persona is a government Kabuki show to placate the masses.
 
2013-07-02 08:08:06 PM
It's disguising how our paranoid "leaders" are doing their goddamnedness to make an example of this guy,
 
2013-07-02 08:09:17 PM
cdn.mos.totalfilm.com
Others have tried Bolivia and it didn't work out.
 
2013-07-02 08:09:26 PM
he has just raised a helmet on his rifle, and had it blown clean off
 
2013-07-02 08:09:39 PM
It'll be a long time before the next whistle blower ever reveals anything the Government is doing illegally. I wonder if Snowden should just come back to the U.S.
 
2013-07-02 08:10:01 PM

Gwendolyn: I don't understand why "Where in the world is Edward Snowden?" is the big story instead of the government programs he exposed and the money they spent doing it. I always figured it was happening anyway but damn they spent a lot of money.


Because, terrorists.

fear, Fear, FEAR citizen!
 
2013-07-02 08:10:30 PM

Day_Old_Dutchie: It's disguising how our paranoid "leaders" are doing their goddamnedness to make an example of this guy,


This is a thread about Snowden, not Zimmerman.
 
2013-07-02 08:10:52 PM
Was he wrapped up in a couple of condoms, hiding in the President's rectum?
 
2013-07-02 08:12:53 PM
Was that article linked to on Drudge or something?

The comment section is very disappointing. Sounds like a bunch of angry old republicans.
 
2013-07-02 08:13:05 PM
I really don't buy it.
 
2013-07-02 08:13:20 PM
Smuggle him to Fark HQ.
 
2013-07-02 08:13:43 PM
This just got good again.

How far do they have to move him to get a first down?
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2013-07-02 08:13:52 PM
Did the President of Bolivia just smuggle Edward Snowden out of Russia?


Don't really care.
 
2013-07-02 08:17:39 PM
Disguised as a cholita wearing a tiny hat.
 
2013-07-02 08:19:05 PM
Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy
 
2013-07-02 08:26:26 PM
Hmmm.  What's the protocol for asking/claiming a foreign military/presidential plane is lying about the passengers?
 
2013-07-02 08:26:35 PM
media.heavy.com
 
2013-07-02 08:28:41 PM

gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy


At least in countries like that the corruption is outright and not taking place in secret courts.
 
2013-07-02 08:29:44 PM
"Raw like Snowden straight from Bolivia"
 
2013-07-02 08:30:50 PM

The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: Was he wrapped up in a couple of condoms, hiding in the President's rectum?


No, but when I saw Boliva, smuggle and snow in the same sentence I thought that was a reasonable conclusion.....
+1
 
2013-07-02 08:31:35 PM
I hope we get at least one good car chase out of this before they roll him up.
 
2013-07-02 08:32:03 PM
He planned this poorly it seems.
 
2013-07-02 08:34:39 PM

studebaker hoch: I hope we get at least one good car chase out of this before they roll him up.


ojsimpson.info
 
2013-07-02 08:35:11 PM
This soap opera amuses me. Snowden clearly thought that everybody would rally around him, he would be seen as noble and righteous and countries would line up to fete him. Instead he's being rejected left and right, he can't find a country to take him, and he's criticizing the US for violating his rights and other blah after he blatantly and publicly violated US laws.

I don't think he thought his cunning plan the whole way through.
 
2013-07-02 08:35:12 PM
Satanic_Hamster

What's the protocol for asking/claiming a foreign military/presidential plane is lying about the passengers?

The country who's airspace you're trying to close has to be your prison biatch.
 
2013-07-02 08:37:05 PM
"We don't know what happened, but it was definitely a hostile act by the US."

Neat.
 
2013-07-02 08:38:59 PM
Didn't Bartlet disappear a plane? The Bermuda Triangle is crazy.
 
2013-07-02 08:39:09 PM

make me some tea: He made it to Austria so far.


Austria said he had to be on their soil to apply, if he's on the plane, it's a step forward.
 
2013-07-02 08:41:36 PM

gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy


Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.
 
2013-07-02 08:41:36 PM

astouffer: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

At least in countries like that the corruption is outright and not taking place in secret courts.


Yes, I suppose so.  I'd rather be middle class in the US than anything less than super rich in Bolivia.  of course, it doesn't take as much to be super-rich down there.

I actually think most of South America is ripe for a Latino Spring  We may already be seeing it in Brazil and Bolivia has had its share of protests as well.  OTOH, maybe it's just business as usual.
 
2013-07-02 08:42:39 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: This soap opera amuses me. Snowden clearly thought that everybody would rally around him, he would be seen as noble and righteous and countries would line up to fete him. Instead he's being rejected left and right, he can't find a country to take him, and he's criticizing the US for violating his rights and other blah after he blatantly and publicly violated US laws.

I don't think he thought his cunning plan the whole way through.


Nonsense. Everybody has to get their digs in and make a big show so that they can milk the incident for all its worth. What is interesting about how this is playing out is this: despite all the talk when push comes to shove neither China nor Russia has an interest in harboring him while it is Latin America that is thumbing its nose at America. That's quite a turn about from 20 years ago. What this whole incident shows me is that the last trickles of the Cold War have played out and new world alignments are taking form.
 
2013-07-02 08:44:53 PM

oren0: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.


Can you pinpoint that minute?  It isn't a recent thing.  The government has just gotten more brazen about it in recent years.
 
2013-07-02 08:47:24 PM
Here's what I don't understand: France and Portugal closed off their airspace.  It refueled in Spain (apparently they were allowed to refuel but not disembark), then landed in Austria?  How did the airplane get to Spain if France was closed off its airspace?  And, after refueling, why couldn't it have flown around Portugal?
 
2013-07-02 08:49:17 PM
So sick of this dude...

Yeah, I'll do it for me:
[welcomeofark.jpg]
 
2013-07-02 08:50:04 PM

djkutch: Didn't Bartlet disappear a plane? The Bermuda Triangle is crazy.


The United States does not engage in regime change through assassination. :)

Where's that Hunt For Red October pic? This could get ugly, and if it does it will get ugly in a hurry.

/if you want know why, swap Bolivia's Pres for US's Obama and see how that scenario plays out. We have to rescue our President from a country in Europe? Oh someone's about to have a very bad day. Rerouting presidents is bad precedent. (Hehe)
 
2013-07-02 08:50:11 PM
He should've just made everything he had public, and then put a gun to his head.

When you cross Uncle Sam, there's no turning back. The government does not appreciate being embarrassed.
 
2013-07-02 08:50:29 PM

aerojockey: Here's what I don't understand: France and Portugal closed off their airspace.  It refueled in Spain (apparently they were allowed to refuel but not disembark), then landed in Austria?  How did the airplane get to Spain if France was closed off its airspace?  And, after refueling, why couldn't it have flown around Portugal?




Maybe they don't have Snowden on board at all and were just flopping around confused as fark about what was happening.
 
2013-07-02 08:51:20 PM
oi44.tinypic.com
 
2013-07-02 08:51:40 PM

gfid: oren0: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.

Can you pinpoint that minute?  It isn't a recent thing.  The government has just gotten more brazen about it in recent years.


This sort of thing has been going on for decades in one form or another. When new technologies pop up they exist in a legal gray area until challenged in court. FISA itself was passed in 1978 to deal with what was at the time highly illegal surveillance.
 
2013-07-02 08:51:54 PM

gfid: oren0: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.

Can you pinpoint that minute?  It isn't a recent thing.  The government has just gotten more brazen about it in recent years.


When we took the 1st combatant off a field of battle and tortured him for information. That was the minute.
 
2013-07-02 08:53:17 PM

gfid: I'd rather be middle class in the US than anything less than super rich in Bolivia.


It is not enough that our standards might be higher than those someplace else. We do not succeed by comparing ourselves to others. Our standards should be set based upon our ideals. Our actual nation has never, at any point in history, lived up to the lofty ideals we set for ourselves. We are a nation built on slavery and genocide. When that ran out, we moved onto the oppression of the workers. Then our sins were defended as "necessary in the face of the Communist threat". Then it was drugs. Now it's terrorists.

The excuses are irrelevant. We should not look at these sorts of programs as "necessary evils", but as mistakes. They move us farther from our ideals- we cease to be a shining city on the hill, and look much more like just another sloppy country with too many secrets.
 
2013-07-02 08:55:42 PM

make me some tea: He made it to Austria so far.


Oh zzzat it tew baaahd, becaus he must tawlk like ze governator schwartzenschwartzenschwartenegger to apply for ze azzylum, yah.
 
2013-07-02 08:56:00 PM
Heh. Someone should start planting tips that he's on planes all over the place. Shut. Down. EVERYTHING.
 
2013-07-02 08:56:39 PM

Yogimus: When we took the 1st combatant off a field of battle and tortured him for information. That was the minute.


Sooooo every war ever?
 
2013-07-02 08:57:44 PM
Shoot the plane down, it's only Bolivia.
 
2013-07-02 08:58:54 PM
i39.tinypic.com
 
2013-07-02 09:03:16 PM

Yogimus: When we took the 1st combatant off a field of battle and tortured him for information. That was the minute.


So, 1776?
 
2013-07-02 09:03:20 PM
Did the President of Bolivia just smuggle Edward Snowden out of Russia?

And does anyone really give a rat's ass?
 
2013-07-02 09:04:10 PM

JonBuck: gfid: oren0: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.

Can you pinpoint that minute?  It isn't a recent thing.  The government has just gotten more brazen about it in recent years.

This sort of thing has been going on for decades in one form or another. When new technologies pop up they exist in a legal gray area until challenged in court. FISA itself was passed in 1978 to deal with what was at the time highly illegal surveillance.


From Wikipedia:

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 ("FISA") is a United States law which prescribes procedures for the physical and electronic surveillance and collection of "foreign intelligence information" between "foreign powers" and "agents of foreign powers" (which may include American citizens and permanent residents suspected of espionage or terrorism).
The interpretation of "agents of foreign powers" to include every US citizen is the novel part. I'd say that was exactly the moment when the NSA went off the rails.
 
2013-07-02 09:04:13 PM

Day_Old_Dutchie: It's disguising how our paranoid "leaders" are doing their goddamnedness to make an example of this guy,


Is it really paranoid though? If they just ignore stuff like this it is just likely to happen more often with people that have a grudge, or read something into a document that may or not be there. Even if you are fine with any individual set of leaks, sooner or later if you just let them have free rein, sooner or later someone is going to leak something really critical. I guess the problem I would have is whether someone like this would really get a fair trial, but that the government will chase them down should pretty much be expected no matter how liberal you are, or the government is supposed to be.

The thing that surprises me is that the president of a country can be grounded like this just on suspicion he might have him on board.
 
2013-07-02 09:04:20 PM

Alonjar: Yogimus: When we took the 1st combatant off a field of battle and tortured him for information. That was the minute.

Sooooo every war ever?


Glad someone got there before me.

/it's all about who gets the chicks in the end anyway
 
2013-07-02 09:05:59 PM
This was just a trial balloon. "Leak" that he's on the Bolivian president's plane and see what happens. Then he leaves on the Venezuelan president's plane.
 
2013-07-02 09:06:53 PM

Day_Old_Dutchie: It's disguising how our paranoid "leaders" are doing their goddamnedness to make an example of this guy,


How much, exactly, do you think they're trying to get him?  A few phone calls?  Commando teams?  Bomber fly overs?  Would you say they're spending BILLIONS?
 
2013-07-02 09:09:05 PM
I really liked tonight's episode! It made about as much sense as Lost, but still, fun!
 
2013-07-02 09:09:43 PM
This whole bullshiat drama in a nutshell:

1) We have a law that protects people who are legitimate whistleblowers. It's pretty straight forward - if you reveal illegal activity, you are free from prosecution.
2) This law is in place so that people who find things morally or politically objectionable don't take it upon themselves to reveal sensitive information because of their political persuasion and instead only reveal information when the acts are actually illegal.
3) If Edward Snowden revealed illegal acts on behalf of the government, then he is protected under the whistleblower law. If he did not, then he's probably a narcissist who really stepped in it.

Personally, I don't feel that it's very important to get him into custody now. It's way more important to establish the legality of the acts that he revealed. If they are deemed to be illegal, then the problem solves itself and he can go on Good Morning America and write a book and retire with his ballet dancer girlfriend. Good for him.

If they are however deemed to be legal, then we need to hunt him to the ends of the earth to deter future narcissists from deciding on their own what the government should and should not do in regards to national security.

I think the most unclear situation would be if the programs were deemed legal, but as other people have alluded to, something that we cannot stomach continuing in their current form. Great, we change this and the public is satisfied, but technically Snowden still broke the law. At that point I really don't know what to do because by law he needs to be prosecuted (this is my rational side speaking), but emotionally - I'd say let the farker live his life out someplace outside of the US.
 
2013-07-02 09:10:26 PM
It would be interesting if another country, let's say Bolivia, or maybe Russia, suggested the idea of the UN doing sanctions to the US. And other countries rallied behind that.
 
2013-07-02 09:10:59 PM

Gwendolyn: I don't understand why "Where in the world is Edward Snowden?" is the big story instead of the government programs he exposed and the money they spent doing it. I always figured it was happening anyway but damn they spent a lot of money.


Because it's funny in its irony. Snowden said he exposed the story of the programs because he doesn't like how corrupt the government is to its own citizens. So, where does he flee to for asylum? Countries with even worse track records against its citizens than the country he fled from. Like trying to expose the corruption of the police force and fleeing to the mafia for protection. He's like going from one James Bond villain country of origin to another James Bond villain country of origin while waving the banner of being a honest, wholesome hero of the people. Like I said, it's funny. And it's fun placing bets to see what's the next country he is going to flee to. I am betting he is going end up in Iran.
 
m00
2013-07-02 09:13:03 PM

Day_Old_Dutchie: It's disguising how our paranoid "leaders" are doing their goddamnedness to make an example of this guy,


It's like the police secretly killing murder witnesses to fudge crime statistics.
 
2013-07-02 09:13:06 PM

Godscrack: They should do a Doppler radar tracking showing where he is. Like Santa Claus.


FTFM *hick
 
2013-07-02 09:13:33 PM
Does anyone else find it odd that France was just complaining about US intelligence and now effectively helping the US find an intelligence leaker?
 
2013-07-02 09:14:32 PM
Fly east out of Russia.

No foreign airspace to cross except about fifty miles of Chile.

You'd need a big plane and lots of fuel, or midair refueling tankers staged along the route.

Putin would have to pretend he didn't notice.
 
2013-07-02 09:15:03 PM

xria: The thing that surprises me is that the president of a country can be grounded like this just on suspicion he might have him on board.


Yes, that part is outrageous. I hope Morales doesn't reroute AF1 in retaliation.

And answer me this: Why did the plane go to Austria? They were in Spain to refuel, heading toward Bolivia, which is a sort of westerly direction last time I checked. Oops! We're going north east, sorry!

This has Biden's paw prints all over it.
 
2013-07-02 09:15:42 PM
I don't get it. What did Snowden reveal that was not public knowledge ever since Echelon went online decades ago ?

I can't for one second believe that the CIA is the only national intelligence agency in the world doing this. Gathering intelligence requires intercepting communications. It always has. Any intelligence agency that does not listen in on communications is grossly derelict in its duties. Today, in a time where there are more methods of communicating than at any other time in history, it follows that there would be more expensive and sophisticated methods of intercepting communications than at any other time in history.
 
2013-07-02 09:17:53 PM

Peki: djkutch: Didn't Bartlet disappear a plane? The Bermuda Triangle is crazy.

The United States does not engage in regime change through assassination. :)

Where's that Hunt For Red October pic? This could get ugly, and if it does it will get ugly in a hurry.

/if you want know why, swap Bolivia's Pres for US's Obama and see how that scenario plays out. We have to rescue our President from a country in Europe? Oh someone's about to have a very bad day. Rerouting presidents is bad precedent. (Hehe)

 
2013-07-02 09:19:14 PM

Gwendolyn: I don't understand why "Where in the world is Edward Snowden?" is the big story instead of the government programs he exposed and the money they spent doing it. I always figured it was happening anyway but damn they spent a lot of money.


Well, one is just the confirmation of an open secret for over a decade, that  nobody besides the "fringe lunatic unpatriotic lib-u-lardos" seemed to care about until Jan. 20, 2009. The other's just...well, kinda fun.

What, you want people like me to  continue griping about something about which we've been griping since the PATRIOT Act passed, long after we turned blue in the face, passed out, woke back up, kept griping, and eventually gave up out of sheer frustration? Screw that noise.
 
2013-07-02 09:20:56 PM

mekki: Gwendolyn: I don't understand why "Where in the world is Edward Snowden?" is the big story instead of the government programs he exposed and the money they spent doing it. I always figured it was happening anyway but damn they spent a lot of money.

Because it's funny in its irony. Snowden said he exposed the story of the programs because he doesn't like how corrupt the government is to its own citizens. So, where does he flee to for asylum? Countries with even worse track records against its citizens than the country he fled from. Like trying to expose the corruption of the police force and fleeing to the mafia for protection. He's like going from one James Bond villain country of origin to another James Bond villain country of origin while waving the banner of being a honest, wholesome hero of the people. Like I said, it's funny. And it's fun placing bets to see what's the next country he is going to flee to. I am betting he is going end up in Iran.


If he had chosen any of our allies with fantastic 'track records', he would have been shipped back to us within minutes. Look how we can lean on France and Portugal. England is our little biatch. Germany? Maybe.

I loved the pilot episode! Hong Kong! Who would have guessed that?!
 
2013-07-02 09:23:06 PM

djkutch: Peki: djkutch: Didn't Bartlet disappear a plane? The Bermuda Triangle is crazy.

The United States does not engage in regime change through assassination. :)

Where's that Hunt For Red October pic? This could get ugly, and if it does it will get ugly in a hurry.

/if you want know why, swap Bolivia's Pres for US's Obama and see how that scenario plays out. We have to rescue our President from a country in Europe? Oh someone's about to have a very bad day. Rerouting presidents is bad precedent. (Hehe)


Pic from Air Force One was judged malformed.But, rest assured, Harrison Ford kicked Gary Oldman's ass.

www.whichmoviestowatch.com
 
2013-07-02 09:28:24 PM

Evil High Priest: This has Biden's paw prints all over it.


I...Biden?
 
2013-07-02 09:30:05 PM
Heck, I think  every whackadoodle who complains how horrible and oppressive life in the U.S. is should move to Bolivia.
 
2013-07-02 09:31:16 PM
Didn't he only leak basically what they were doing for the most part?
 
2013-07-02 09:33:48 PM

rkiller1: [cdn.mos.totalfilm.com image 470x265]
Others have tried Bolivia and it didn't work out.


well played.
 
2013-07-02 09:34:31 PM
To address the "End of the cold war" comment from up top:  I wonder if they rejected Snowden because they are drifting toward our values, or because they can empathize with our stance on surveillance?
 
2013-07-02 09:35:09 PM

rkiller1: [cdn.mos.totalfilm.com image 470x265]
Others have tried Bolivia and it didn't work out.


Thank You
 
2013-07-02 09:36:33 PM

ThrobblefootSpectre: Heck, I think  every whackadoodle who complains how horrible and oppressive life in the U.S. is should move to Bolivia.


Well, as far as I'm concerned after the complete legislative train wreck that was the 111th Congress, between  Citizens United and redistricting coming down the pike in the 112th, the electorate had  one opportunity left to get the country heading anywhere but off the nearest, tallest cliff. The country raised its head and spoke with one voice, "DERP!".

Now we live in a country in which corporations are people, money is speech, talking heads and shills are policy elite, a minority is a mandate, enforcing tax law is a scandal in and of itself, transparency and accountability are memories, and voting rights are being willfully thrown away by its own electorate. We're the world's richest third-world kleptocracy, and we have  exactly the government we deserve.
 
2013-07-02 09:39:01 PM

Yogimus: To address the "End of the cold war" comment from up top:  I wonder if they rejected Snowden because they are drifting toward our values, or because they can empathize with our stance on surveillance?


Russia? Nah, I get the sense it may have been a "I told them we already gots one [everybody snarfs laughing behind the battlements]" moment on the part of Putin.
 
2013-07-02 09:42:13 PM
Watch for a diversion-- when an anonymous caller informs that Snowden is a member of the flight crew, a disguised low-level airline employee flying as a deadhead in coach goes unnoticed.
 
2013-07-02 09:47:51 PM
I still think he was foolish for turning down Pooty-Poot's offer. Hell, I am functionally fluent in Spanish (lived in Guatemala as a youngster, and later in Honduras, Ecuador and Spain) and  STILL would have chosen to stay in Russia under his circumstances. Bolivia? Third world shiathole.
 
2013-07-02 09:53:05 PM
TwistedFark:
I think the most unclear situation would be if the programs were deemed legal, but as other people have alluded to, something that we cannot stomach continuing in their current form. Great, we change this and the public is satisfied, but technically Snowden still broke the law. At that point I really don't know what to do because by law he needs to be prosecuted (this is my rational side speaking), but emotionally - I'd say let the farker live his life out someplace outside of the US.

I think the real issue is that the government doesn't know what information he has and he's still leaking stuff out. And he's visiting countries with questionable US interests like China and Russia.
 
2013-07-02 09:54:01 PM
he probably has had a bug implanted in his ass so that Uncle Sam can track him.   There
is a price to pay for having access to taboo government info.  The gov't isn't so stupid as to
not implant microchips in their employees who have high level clearance.   Otherwise he
would have just moved to Idaho and assumed another identity.  Nonetheless, there is more
to this story.
 
2013-07-02 09:54:04 PM

that bosnian sniper: ThrobblefootSpectre: Heck, I think  every whackadoodle who complains how horrible and oppressive life in the U.S. is should move to Bolivia.

Well, as far as I'm concerned after the complete legislative train wreck that was the 111th Congress, between  Citizens United and redistricting coming down the pike in the 112th, the electorate had  one opportunity left to get the country heading anywhere but off the nearest, tallest cliff. The country raised its head and spoke with one voice, "DERP!".

Now we live in a country in which corporations are people, money is speech, talking heads and shills are policy elite, a minority is a mandate, enforcing tax law is a scandal in and of itself, transparency and accountability are memories, and voting rights are being willfully thrown away by its own electorate. We're the world's richest third-world kleptocracy, and we have  exactly the government we deserve.



I know, you're very oppressed.  It shows with your every post.  I think the paradise that is Bolivia could be just the place for you.
 
2013-07-02 09:55:36 PM

that bosnian sniper: ThrobblefootSpectre: Heck, I think  every whackadoodle who complains how horrible and oppressive life in the U.S. is should move to Bolivia.

Well, as far as I'm concerned after the complete legislative train wreck that was the 111th Congress, between  Citizens United and redistricting coming down the pike in the 112th, the electorate had  one opportunity left to get the country heading anywhere but off the nearest, tallest cliff. The country raised its head and spoke with one voice, "DERP!".

Now we live in a country in which corporations are people, money is speech, talking heads and shills are policy elite, a minority is a mandate, enforcing tax law is a scandal in and of itself, transparency and accountability are memories, and voting rights are being willfully thrown away by its own electorate. We're the world's richest third-world kleptocracy, and we have  exactly the government we deserve.


I'm beginning to doubt your dedication to Sparkle Motion. It's troubling.
 
2013-07-02 09:57:15 PM

Stone Meadow: I still think he was foolish for turning down Pooty-Poot's offer. Hell, I am functionally fluent in Spanish (lived in Guatemala as a youngster, and later in Honduras, Ecuador and Spain) and  STILL would have chosen to stay in Russia under his circumstances. Bolivia? Third world shiathole.


A third world shiathole from which he would be difficult to track. He could hang out there days or months, only to reappear somewhere else on the planet. Or he could slip across the boarder into Argentina. Economic issues aside, Argentina is a pretty nice country and one that doesn't really care all that much about what the US thinks about them.
 
2013-07-02 09:59:49 PM
There's only going to be one real question if Snowden is captured:

Did he recover the Superbowl Ring?
 
2013-07-02 10:04:44 PM
The plot thickens ... this is interesting as hell.
 
2013-07-02 10:05:13 PM
shame on the USA for lying and spying on its citizens

shame on the world for not offering Snowden refuge from a rogue police state

shame on American citizens for standing around with thumbs in mouths with nothing to say
yet again, as their freedoms and rights are stripped from them over and over and over

why you don't take your country back while there is still a system in place that would allow it
is beyond me.

your right to a fair trial is gone now, you do know that don't you, 'terrorist'?

what's next?  your right to free speech fo shizzle.
 
2013-07-02 10:08:52 PM
It's like an international game of Hot Potato.
 
2013-07-02 10:11:20 PM

xria: The thing that surprises me is that the president of a country can be grounded like this just on suspicion he might have him on board.


If a country refuses airspace, continuing to enter it would be a hostile action. Inadvisable with a President on board. When fuel gets low its a matter of physics, which doesn't care what office you hold. And really, like France gives a shiat about Bolivia.
 
2013-07-02 10:12:20 PM
Sentencing him to life in Bolivia seems cruel.
 
2013-07-02 10:13:57 PM

jsmilky: he probably has had a bug implanted in his ass so that Uncle Sam can track him.   There
is a price to pay for having access to taboo government info.  The gov't isn't so stupid as to
not implant microchips in their employees who have high level clearance.   Otherwise he
would have just moved to Idaho and assumed another identity.  Nonetheless, there is more
to this story.


Where does this insanity come from? Implanted microchips just because you have a security clearance? Someone's been watching too many movies.
 
2013-07-02 10:18:27 PM
Many European countries on the list - including Austria, Finland, Ireland, the Netherlands, Norway, Spain and Switzerland - said he would have to make his request on their soil.
 -=-

Because these countries suck the American dick and would hand you over in a throb... er... heartbeat.
 
2013-07-02 10:21:26 PM

thisisyourbrainonFark: The plot thickens ... this is interesting as hell.


Yeah,
We basically forced a diplomatic flight carrying a head of state to land in Europe.  Nice and subtle, "Land in Europe or you will run out of fuel and crash in the south atlantic, your choice".  What I don't understand was what they thought they would accomplish besides pissing off half of South America and Russia.  They couldn't have expected Bolivia to kick him off the plane wherever it landed, or expect them to allow police from whatever country they landed in to search the plane.  If he was on the plane he is going to Bolivia and we just delayed him 12 hours, if not we pissed off a lot of people for nothing.
 
2013-07-02 10:22:47 PM

HK-MP5-SD: We basically forced a diplomatic flight carrying a head of state to land in Europe.


The USA had nothing to do with the plane being diverted, take off the tin foil.
 
2013-07-02 10:26:44 PM
upload.wikimedia.org

Also ended up in Bolivia.
 
2013-07-02 10:27:54 PM
Four, count 'em, FOUR greenlights to Main today about this guy.

This is farking absurd.
 
2013-07-02 10:38:58 PM
Has the Internet made this guy a hero?
 
2013-07-02 10:40:23 PM

Disgruntled Goat: Four, count 'em, FOUR greenlights to Main today about this guy.

This is farking absurd.


1 more and someone gets a footlong.

/eat fresh
 
2013-07-02 10:41:40 PM

Jekylman: [upload.wikimedia.org image 220x178]

Also ended up in Bolivia.


the guy in the upper-right--is that Worf?
 
2013-07-02 10:45:41 PM
He should sneak into the US and use the Republicans' "path to citizenship".
 
2013-07-02 10:46:30 PM

Jekylman: [upload.wikimedia.org image 220x178]

Also ended up in Bolivia.


And like Butch and Sundance...never got out alive.

Snowden's choices of refuge just keep getting worse and worse, don't they?
 
2013-07-02 10:50:27 PM
there have been 5 times in my history that I really wished for Castro's death, knowing it would turn the world's attention away from the U.S. having some stupid a** problem - this would be one
 
2013-07-02 10:59:02 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Where does this insanity come from? Implanted microchips just because you have a security clearance? Someone's been watching too many movies.


I'm heading to the vet to check. Just in case I have a "Answers to: Fido, If found please return to the NSA"  chip inside me.
 
2013-07-02 11:00:19 PM
t3knomaser: We should not look at these sorts of programs as "necessary evils", but as mistakes. They move us farther from our ideals- we cease to be a shining city on the hill, and look much more like just another sloppy country with too many secrets.

Perhaps it is only a few of us who know we've ALWAYS been a sloppy country - from our inception - who hide truths even from ourselves. I am well aware of our failings but? Ideals, as long as we try collectively (and not politically) to reach them, aren't a negative thing.

If you feel the country is moving away from the ideal then the question is - what are you doing to change the status quo?
 
2013-07-02 11:02:40 PM

davynelson: shame on the USA for lying and spying on its citizens

shame on the world for not offering Snowden refuge from a rogue police state

shame on American citizens for standing around with thumbs in mouths with nothing to say
yet again, as their freedoms and rights are stripped from them over and over and over

why you don't take your country back while there is still a system in place that would allow it
is beyond me.

your right to a fair trial is gone now, you do know that don't you, 'terrorist'?

what's next?  your right to free speech fo shizzle.


We get "Free speech zones"! You know, little isolated bubbles of Constitutionally protected turf. To want more is unpatriotic.
 
2013-07-02 11:05:05 PM

parasol: If you feel the country is moving away from the ideal then the question is - what are you doing to change the status quo?


Type snarky memes on the internet while waiting for the next President Superman to fix everything for us?
 
2013-07-02 11:05:36 PM

oren0: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.


Since when did they do that?

I haven't seen anything out of PRISM that violates the fourth amendment.

FISA Court being used to issue search warrants, that fits Amendment IV requirements for a specific search.
Broad metadata sweeps, no personal identifying information, not an Amendment IV issue.

PRISM certainly looks like it was very carefully designed to hew to the exact limits of what they could do and stay within Fourth Amendment limitations.
 
2013-07-02 11:08:46 PM

oren0: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.


Not to mention the First, Second, Fifth, and Sixth...

Let's face it: when Ecuador offers 23 million for human rights training and nobody bats an eye, when you charge reporters with a crime for actually investigating and reporting/attempting to report the news, when the highest court in your land says you have to verbally declare that you are taking advantage of your Constitutional rights in order for them to apply to you, when you can be searched for having the audacity to travel within your own country--even via private means, when the Germans--who have much long experience at police states, tyranny, and other abuses of civil and human rights--openly declare that they do not trust you, when people are not free to love and have relationships with whomever they wish to love and have relationships with... you have long since lost any right to claim moral high ground, human rights watchdog, or free and democratic over anyone--anyone--in the world, regardless of how despotic and tyrannical they may seem to be.
 
2013-07-02 11:09:02 PM

jsmilky: he probably has had a bug implanted in his ass so that Uncle Sam can track him.   There
is a price to pay for having access to taboo government info.  The gov't isn't so stupid as to
not implant microchips in their employees who have high level clearance.   Otherwise he
would have just moved to Idaho and assumed another identity.  Nonetheless, there is more
to this story.


You honestly think the US government implants chips in everybody with a TS/SCI clearance?  Chips that let them be tracked anywhere in the world?

Methinks you've been watching way, WAY too much TV.  That tracking implant in Casino Royale was one of the few totally fantasy things out of that movie.
 
2013-07-02 11:14:09 PM
Bolivia should declare war on France and Portugal. They'd both surrender.
 
2013-07-02 11:18:45 PM

Satanic_Hamster: Hmmm.  What's the protocol for asking/claiming a foreign military/presidential plane is lying about the passengerinin


In 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait, a British Air 747 enroute to Malaysia stopped at Kuwait City. 1/2 the passengers stood up and got off the plane. The plane taxed down the run way to take off. But Iraqi tanks entered the run way and the remaining passengers were taken hostage.
i.dailymail.co.uk
The hostages were later released with the help of Jesse Jackson. They attempted to sue British Air, but the British government gave them immunity(although French citizens did get compensation).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_149
 
2013-07-02 11:19:52 PM
davynelson: shame on the USA for lying and spying on its citizens

shame on the world for not offering Snowden refuge from a rogue police state

shame on American citizens for standing around with thumbs in mouths with nothing to say
yet again, as their freedoms and rights are stripped from them over and over and over

why you don't take your country back while there is still a system in place that would allow it
is beyond me.


your right to a fair trial is gone now, you do know that don't you, 'terrorist'?

what's next?  your right to free speech fo shizzle.


panem et circenses
 
2013-07-02 11:24:10 PM

Disgruntled Goat: Four, count 'em, FOUR greenlights to Main today about this guy.

This is farking absurd.


What is absurd is the fact that Snowden is the story and not what we have allowed our government to strip from us in the interest of "safety."

THAT is what is absurd about this.

Snowden should be next to anonymous. The story is the fact that we have no civil rights and that our Constitution is viewed by this President as "flawed." That Bush started this program and that this President, a Constitutional scholar, did not immediately put an end to it. Why do we even know Snowden's whereabouts?

In both the Bush and Obama administrations, Woodward and Bernstein would be wanted criminals--traitors to the United States (just as many have called Greenwald for running this story). 40 years ago, they brought down a Presidency, won a Pulitzer (The Post, for which they worked, won a Pulitzer for having done a public service for breaking the Watergate scandal), and are accounted as having done the greatest journalistic work of all time. Personally, I'm more interested in what Bernstein and Woodward have to say about the situation with Greenwald and Snowden (haven't been able to find anything yet) than politicians and these hack reporters of today.
 
2013-07-02 11:25:27 PM

aerojockey: Here's what I don't understand: France and Portugal closed off their airspace.  It refueled in Spain (apparently they were allowed to refuel but not disembark), then landed in Austria?  How did the airplane get to Spain if France was closed off its airspace?  And, after refueling, why couldn't it have flown around Portugal?



Over Italy and then the Mediterranean Sea.

I would be embarrassed to be a Frenchman or Spaniard with such wimpy leaders. It's like Obama is the new King of Europe.
 
2013-07-02 11:29:47 PM

CygnusDarius: It would be interesting if another country, let's say Bolivia, or maybe Russia, suggested the idea of the UN doing sanctions to the US. And other countries rallied behind that.


Edward Snowden thought that all sorts of people would rally against the U.S. as well. How's that working out for him so far?

Also: the U.N. knows who's paying to keep their lights on. It would be a shame if sanctions forced us to cut back on some of our discretionary spending.
 
2013-07-02 11:33:12 PM

EngineerAU: Stone Meadow: I still think he was foolish for turning down Pooty-Poot's offer. Hell, I am functionally fluent in Spanish (lived in Guatemala as a youngster, and later in Honduras, Ecuador and Spain) and  STILL would have chosen to stay in Russia under his circumstances. Bolivia? Third world shiathole.

A third world shiathole from which he would be difficult to track. He could hang out there days or months, only to reappear somewhere else on the planet. Or he could slip across the boarder into Argentina. Economic issues aside, Argentina is a pretty nice country and one that doesn't really care all that much about what the US thinks about them.


Difficult to track? Do you have any idea how the modern international passport system works? NSA dips into the data stream all countries use for passport control at their borders, and any movement by him would be on their screens within seconds, even if he was using a Bolivian passport.

Sure, Snowden could remain practically invisible within Bolivia...at least until he started using a credit/debit card, cell phone or email account. But he's an attention whore who craves the self-righteous narcissism that goes with revealing secrets, so he will be in NSA/CIA's sights within days if not hours of settling in Bolivia. If he'd just wanted protection he would have stayed in Russia, but their condition was that he remain silent, and that's not going to float with Snowden. Awesome...just farking awesome.
 
2013-07-02 11:38:18 PM
Bolivian President Evo Morales on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-september-25-2007/president-ev o- morales
 
2013-07-02 11:44:45 PM
Kid needed to bust Saddam in the mouth.
 
2013-07-02 11:52:59 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: This soap opera amuses me. Snowden clearly thought that everybody would rally around him, he would be seen as noble and righteous and countries would line up to fete him. Instead he's being rejected left and right, he can't find a country to take him, and he's criticizing the US for violating his rights and other blah after he blatantly and publicly violated US laws.

I don't think he thought his cunning plan the whole way through.


Hear hear! How dare he think that revealing illegal spying on US citizens would not be punished! The sooner we realize that the government controls us and not the other way around, the better! I applaud my betters for taking swift action.
 
2013-07-02 11:53:55 PM
Is he going to Lake Titicaca?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I0Hee533Iw
 
2013-07-03 12:20:22 AM
France, Italy, and Portugal refused to allow the plane access to their airspace. It eventually landed in Vienna. The Bolivians swear Snowden wasn't on board.

Now, France and Portugal are apparently allowing the plane to go overhead. There's also a pretty good chance Snowden is still in Moscow, because diplomats fly in and out of a different airport there than commercial passengers do. If Snowden were to get a diplomatic flight out of Moscow, it would first have to hop over to the main airport, which would obviously garner plenty of attention.
 
2013-07-03 12:24:24 AM
I'd have liked to see the Bolivian plane to crash if only because it would be a diplomatic nightmare for France and Portugal
 
2013-07-03 12:29:06 AM

Aigoo: The story is the fact that we have no civil rights


What's absurd is the idea that we have no civil rights
 
2013-07-03 12:29:24 AM

LasersHurt: "We don't know what happened, but it was definitely a hostile act by the US."

Neat.


An act of war, possibly.
 
2013-07-03 12:44:24 AM

Silverstaff: oren0: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.

Since when did they do that?

I haven't seen anything out of PRISM that violates the fourth amendment.

FISA Court being used to issue search warrants, that fits Amendment IV requirements for a specific search.
Broad metadata sweeps, no personal identifying information, not an Amendment IV issue.

PRISM certainly looks like it was very carefully designed to hew to the exact limits of what they could do and stay within Fourth Amendment limitations.


"No Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized "

Anyone who believes that a FISA warrant for the communications of all Americans meets this standard needs a remedial civics course.

Congress passed a law forbidding the NSA from targeting US citizens in the US. The NSA's legal interpretation of that was that it allowed them to intercept all communications from Americans because they could do that without "targeting" individuals. If there's anything to be learned here, the intelligence apparatus doesn't care about rights, the law, or the constitution.
 
2013-07-03 12:50:29 AM

Gyrfalcon: Jekylman: [upload.wikimedia.org image 220x178]

Also ended up in Bolivia.

And like Butch and Sundance...never got out alive.

Snowden's choices of refuge just keep getting worse and worse, don't they?


Personally I think he should just skip off to say Polynesia - there are so many tiny islands out there he could probably just pick one and buy a boat to get him there for like $10, if he were willing to give up contact with the world for a while...
 
2013-07-03 01:41:18 AM

Day_Old_Dutchie: It's disguising how our paranoid "leaders" are doing their goddamnedness to make an example of this guy,


Good lesson though in how no matter how much you hate the politicians in Washington, South Americans hate them more.
 
2013-07-03 02:21:46 AM
Came looking for a shoop of Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego with Snowden's face cleverly inserted, leaving disappointed.
 
2013-07-03 02:31:50 AM
10 years down the road, we discover he's an actor hired by the munchkin guild of Oz
 
2013-07-03 03:34:20 AM

Popcorn Johnny: The USA had nothing to do with the plane being diverted, take off the tin foil.


Bullshiat. Why else would any European nation care whether or not Snowden happened to be flying through its airspace?
 
2013-07-03 06:01:54 AM
Came for Butch and Sundance, leaving happy
 
2013-07-03 06:08:48 AM

Stone Meadow: But he's an attention whore who craves the self-righteous narcissism that goes with revealing secrets, so he will be in NSA/CIA's sights within days if not hours of settling in Bolivia.


You sound... concerned.
 
2013-07-03 06:22:42 AM
Hows that "rule of law" working out for you? dikbag countries just proved to the world that they won't follow their OWN rules when the rubber meets the road... Also proves that every country farks every other country, and all the fake 'rage' from these countries is fake.

Is it legal to deny a diplomat almost anything?? what ever happened to diplomatic immunity??

\fake rage is fake.
 
2013-07-03 07:07:32 AM
Reroutings will continue until Morales improves
 
2013-07-03 07:28:02 AM

Ivo Shandor: Bullshiat. Why else would any European nation care whether or not Snowden happened to be flying through its airspace?


Because they don't want to get involved, it's really not that hard to figure out.
 
2013-07-03 08:03:54 AM
The hardest parts were getting a condom big enough for Snowden to fit in and stuffing him into a pregnant woman without killing her. After that, it was all smooth sailing from there.
 
2013-07-03 08:31:18 AM

davynelson: shame on the USA for lying and spying on its citizens

shame on the world for not offering Snowden refuge from a rogue police state

shame on American citizens for standing around with thumbs in mouths with nothing to say
yet again, as their freedoms and rights are stripped from them over and over and over

why you don't take your country back while there is still a system in place that would allow it
is beyond me.

your right to a fair trial is gone now, you do know that don't you, 'terrorist'?

what's next?  your right to free speech fo shizzle.


I've been assured that the 2nd amendment protects the rest, so clearly out rights aren't being violated, or these would be a mass armed uprising. Unless gun owners only care about owning guns and nothing else, but surely they wouldn't lie about that.
 
2013-07-03 09:39:00 AM
[Ironic] ... and we're still supposed to still believe the NSA has awesome powers?
That's just what they want you to think
 
2013-07-03 10:32:57 AM

BostonEMT: Hows that "rule of law" working out for you? dikbag countries just proved to the world that they won't follow their OWN rules when the rubber meets the road... Also proves that every country farks every other country, and all the fake 'rage' from these countries is fake.

Is it legal to deny a diplomat almost anything?? what ever happened to diplomatic immunity??

\fake rage is fake.


You said countries thrice.
 
2013-07-03 10:34:10 AM

EngineerAU: Stone Meadow: But he's an attention whore who craves the self-righteous narcissism that goes with revealing secrets, so he will be in NSA/CIA's sights within days if not hours of settling in Bolivia.

You sound... concerned.


Not really. More like pointing out the obvious. The real-time abilities of US intel agencies have been growing exponentially for a decade, and the idea that someone they want to track can stay hidden is a pipe dream from now on. Snowden of all people should have known that.
 
2013-07-03 12:36:00 PM

Dinobot: I'd have liked to see the Bolivian plane to crash if only because it would be a diplomatic nightmare for France and Portugal


and whoever forced them to do what they did. Whoever might that have been, do you suppose?
 
2013-07-03 01:41:37 PM

Popcorn Johnny: Ivo Shandor: Bullshiat. Why else would any European nation care whether or not Snowden happened to be flying through its airspace?

Because they don't want to get involved, it's really not that hard to figure out.


What is so hard to figure out that forcing a plane to land is 'getting involved?
 
2013-07-03 05:29:15 PM

Some Bass Playing Guy: Aigoo: The story is the fact that we have no civil rights

What's absurd is the idea that we have no civil rights


Wait, you're right. The jury did find the guy who protested outside of Bank of America not guilty.

What's absurd is that he was arrested and charged to begin with. For protesting. On a sidewalk. With sidewalk chalk. Which is washable. Amendment 1

What's absurd is that you now need to state audibly--likely on a recording (which it's not legal in many places for you to make)--that you are availing yourself of your Fifth Amendment rights.

What's absurd is that you can be searched, and your belongings seized, during travel within your own country--whether that travel is by plane, rail, or personal automotive vehicle (yes, the TSA operates on the highways and can stop and search vehicles). Amendment 4

What's absurd is that your phone calls, e-mails, the contents of everything you do are subject to being spied on by the government. Amendment 4

What's absurd is that your rights to trial by jury, to know the charges against you, to not be detained indefinitely without charge, and to not be held to answer for capital crime without indictment by Grand Jury can all be removed at the President's whim--and have been for American citizens already, who were summarily killed on the President's orders (Amendments 5, 6, and possibly 8, considering one of those citizens was a child who had done nothing wrong except to be in the wrong place at the wrong time).

What's absurd is that you can be arrested and/or beaten for protesting on a city street within the United States--a right guaranteed by the First Amendment.

What's absurd is that an individual who has no legitimate legal reason (violent felony, restraining order, mental illness) to prevent them from purchasing a firearm should be concerned even the slightest about their ability to do so--now or ever--in the United States when that right is guaranteed by the Second Amendment (go learn some word etymology and history--well-regulated in the late 1700's and early 1800's meant well-maintained and functioning properly. Shall not be infringed meant the same thing it does today--shall not be impeded or encroached upon in any way, shape, or form).

What's absurd is that members of the press are being spied on and charged with crimes for doing their jobs. Amendment 1

I'm sorry...you were saying? If the systematic destruction of the Bill of Rights--which are our primary civil rights--doesn't concern you, I don't know what to say except that you are the problem. Enjoy living in the police state that they are trying to build. You do not know history, so you do not recognize it repeating itself and I feel very, very sorry for you.
 
2013-07-03 09:08:34 PM

FuryOfFirestorm: The hardest parts were getting a condom big enough for Snowden to fit in and stuffing him into a pregnant woman without killing her. After that, it was all smooth sailing from there.


He should try renting Octomom's womb. He might fit in that.

/need brain bleach now for that visual
 
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