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(Washington Post)   Did the President of Bolivia just smuggle Edward Snowden out of Russia?   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 153
    More: Interesting, Evo Morales, President of Bolivia, Bolivia, Russia, Russian President Vladimir Putin, Maduro, Moscow Airport, Russia Today  
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11398 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Jul 2013 at 8:04 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-02 08:51:54 PM

gfid: oren0: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.

Can you pinpoint that minute?  It isn't a recent thing.  The government has just gotten more brazen about it in recent years.


When we took the 1st combatant off a field of battle and tortured him for information. That was the minute.
 
2013-07-02 08:53:17 PM

gfid: I'd rather be middle class in the US than anything less than super rich in Bolivia.


It is not enough that our standards might be higher than those someplace else. We do not succeed by comparing ourselves to others. Our standards should be set based upon our ideals. Our actual nation has never, at any point in history, lived up to the lofty ideals we set for ourselves. We are a nation built on slavery and genocide. When that ran out, we moved onto the oppression of the workers. Then our sins were defended as "necessary in the face of the Communist threat". Then it was drugs. Now it's terrorists.

The excuses are irrelevant. We should not look at these sorts of programs as "necessary evils", but as mistakes. They move us farther from our ideals- we cease to be a shining city on the hill, and look much more like just another sloppy country with too many secrets.
 
2013-07-02 08:55:42 PM

make me some tea: He made it to Austria so far.


Oh zzzat it tew baaahd, becaus he must tawlk like ze governator schwartzenschwartzenschwartenegger to apply for ze azzylum, yah.
 
2013-07-02 08:56:00 PM
Heh. Someone should start planting tips that he's on planes all over the place. Shut. Down. EVERYTHING.
 
2013-07-02 08:56:39 PM

Yogimus: When we took the 1st combatant off a field of battle and tortured him for information. That was the minute.


Sooooo every war ever?
 
2013-07-02 08:57:44 PM
Shoot the plane down, it's only Bolivia.
 
2013-07-02 08:58:54 PM
i39.tinypic.com
 
2013-07-02 09:03:16 PM

Yogimus: When we took the 1st combatant off a field of battle and tortured him for information. That was the minute.


So, 1776?
 
2013-07-02 09:03:20 PM
Did the President of Bolivia just smuggle Edward Snowden out of Russia?

And does anyone really give a rat's ass?
 
2013-07-02 09:04:10 PM

JonBuck: gfid: oren0: gfid: Ahhh, Bolivia - that bastion of freedom and democracy

Any moral high ground on "freedom and democracy" that the US had was gone the minute the government decided to pretend the fourth amendment didn't exist.

Can you pinpoint that minute?  It isn't a recent thing.  The government has just gotten more brazen about it in recent years.

This sort of thing has been going on for decades in one form or another. When new technologies pop up they exist in a legal gray area until challenged in court. FISA itself was passed in 1978 to deal with what was at the time highly illegal surveillance.


From Wikipedia:

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 ("FISA") is a United States law which prescribes procedures for the physical and electronic surveillance and collection of "foreign intelligence information" between "foreign powers" and "agents of foreign powers" (which may include American citizens and permanent residents suspected of espionage or terrorism).
The interpretation of "agents of foreign powers" to include every US citizen is the novel part. I'd say that was exactly the moment when the NSA went off the rails.
 
2013-07-02 09:04:13 PM

Day_Old_Dutchie: It's disguising how our paranoid "leaders" are doing their goddamnedness to make an example of this guy,


Is it really paranoid though? If they just ignore stuff like this it is just likely to happen more often with people that have a grudge, or read something into a document that may or not be there. Even if you are fine with any individual set of leaks, sooner or later if you just let them have free rein, sooner or later someone is going to leak something really critical. I guess the problem I would have is whether someone like this would really get a fair trial, but that the government will chase them down should pretty much be expected no matter how liberal you are, or the government is supposed to be.

The thing that surprises me is that the president of a country can be grounded like this just on suspicion he might have him on board.
 
2013-07-02 09:04:20 PM

Alonjar: Yogimus: When we took the 1st combatant off a field of battle and tortured him for information. That was the minute.

Sooooo every war ever?


Glad someone got there before me.

/it's all about who gets the chicks in the end anyway
 
2013-07-02 09:05:59 PM
This was just a trial balloon. "Leak" that he's on the Bolivian president's plane and see what happens. Then he leaves on the Venezuelan president's plane.
 
2013-07-02 09:06:53 PM

Day_Old_Dutchie: It's disguising how our paranoid "leaders" are doing their goddamnedness to make an example of this guy,


How much, exactly, do you think they're trying to get him?  A few phone calls?  Commando teams?  Bomber fly overs?  Would you say they're spending BILLIONS?
 
2013-07-02 09:09:05 PM
I really liked tonight's episode! It made about as much sense as Lost, but still, fun!
 
2013-07-02 09:09:43 PM
This whole bullshiat drama in a nutshell:

1) We have a law that protects people who are legitimate whistleblowers. It's pretty straight forward - if you reveal illegal activity, you are free from prosecution.
2) This law is in place so that people who find things morally or politically objectionable don't take it upon themselves to reveal sensitive information because of their political persuasion and instead only reveal information when the acts are actually illegal.
3) If Edward Snowden revealed illegal acts on behalf of the government, then he is protected under the whistleblower law. If he did not, then he's probably a narcissist who really stepped in it.

Personally, I don't feel that it's very important to get him into custody now. It's way more important to establish the legality of the acts that he revealed. If they are deemed to be illegal, then the problem solves itself and he can go on Good Morning America and write a book and retire with his ballet dancer girlfriend. Good for him.

If they are however deemed to be legal, then we need to hunt him to the ends of the earth to deter future narcissists from deciding on their own what the government should and should not do in regards to national security.

I think the most unclear situation would be if the programs were deemed legal, but as other people have alluded to, something that we cannot stomach continuing in their current form. Great, we change this and the public is satisfied, but technically Snowden still broke the law. At that point I really don't know what to do because by law he needs to be prosecuted (this is my rational side speaking), but emotionally - I'd say let the farker live his life out someplace outside of the US.
 
2013-07-02 09:10:26 PM
It would be interesting if another country, let's say Bolivia, or maybe Russia, suggested the idea of the UN doing sanctions to the US. And other countries rallied behind that.
 
2013-07-02 09:10:59 PM

Gwendolyn: I don't understand why "Where in the world is Edward Snowden?" is the big story instead of the government programs he exposed and the money they spent doing it. I always figured it was happening anyway but damn they spent a lot of money.


Because it's funny in its irony. Snowden said he exposed the story of the programs because he doesn't like how corrupt the government is to its own citizens. So, where does he flee to for asylum? Countries with even worse track records against its citizens than the country he fled from. Like trying to expose the corruption of the police force and fleeing to the mafia for protection. He's like going from one James Bond villain country of origin to another James Bond villain country of origin while waving the banner of being a honest, wholesome hero of the people. Like I said, it's funny. And it's fun placing bets to see what's the next country he is going to flee to. I am betting he is going end up in Iran.
 
m00
2013-07-02 09:13:03 PM

Day_Old_Dutchie: It's disguising how our paranoid "leaders" are doing their goddamnedness to make an example of this guy,


It's like the police secretly killing murder witnesses to fudge crime statistics.
 
2013-07-02 09:13:06 PM

Godscrack: They should do a Doppler radar tracking showing where he is. Like Santa Claus.


FTFM *hick
 
2013-07-02 09:13:33 PM
Does anyone else find it odd that France was just complaining about US intelligence and now effectively helping the US find an intelligence leaker?
 
2013-07-02 09:14:32 PM
Fly east out of Russia.

No foreign airspace to cross except about fifty miles of Chile.

You'd need a big plane and lots of fuel, or midair refueling tankers staged along the route.

Putin would have to pretend he didn't notice.
 
2013-07-02 09:15:03 PM

xria: The thing that surprises me is that the president of a country can be grounded like this just on suspicion he might have him on board.


Yes, that part is outrageous. I hope Morales doesn't reroute AF1 in retaliation.

And answer me this: Why did the plane go to Austria? They were in Spain to refuel, heading toward Bolivia, which is a sort of westerly direction last time I checked. Oops! We're going north east, sorry!

This has Biden's paw prints all over it.
 
2013-07-02 09:15:42 PM
I don't get it. What did Snowden reveal that was not public knowledge ever since Echelon went online decades ago ?

I can't for one second believe that the CIA is the only national intelligence agency in the world doing this. Gathering intelligence requires intercepting communications. It always has. Any intelligence agency that does not listen in on communications is grossly derelict in its duties. Today, in a time where there are more methods of communicating than at any other time in history, it follows that there would be more expensive and sophisticated methods of intercepting communications than at any other time in history.
 
2013-07-02 09:17:53 PM

Peki: djkutch: Didn't Bartlet disappear a plane? The Bermuda Triangle is crazy.

The United States does not engage in regime change through assassination. :)

Where's that Hunt For Red October pic? This could get ugly, and if it does it will get ugly in a hurry.

/if you want know why, swap Bolivia's Pres for US's Obama and see how that scenario plays out. We have to rescue our President from a country in Europe? Oh someone's about to have a very bad day. Rerouting presidents is bad precedent. (Hehe)

 
2013-07-02 09:19:14 PM

Gwendolyn: I don't understand why "Where in the world is Edward Snowden?" is the big story instead of the government programs he exposed and the money they spent doing it. I always figured it was happening anyway but damn they spent a lot of money.


Well, one is just the confirmation of an open secret for over a decade, that  nobody besides the "fringe lunatic unpatriotic lib-u-lardos" seemed to care about until Jan. 20, 2009. The other's just...well, kinda fun.

What, you want people like me to  continue griping about something about which we've been griping since the PATRIOT Act passed, long after we turned blue in the face, passed out, woke back up, kept griping, and eventually gave up out of sheer frustration? Screw that noise.
 
2013-07-02 09:20:56 PM

mekki: Gwendolyn: I don't understand why "Where in the world is Edward Snowden?" is the big story instead of the government programs he exposed and the money they spent doing it. I always figured it was happening anyway but damn they spent a lot of money.

Because it's funny in its irony. Snowden said he exposed the story of the programs because he doesn't like how corrupt the government is to its own citizens. So, where does he flee to for asylum? Countries with even worse track records against its citizens than the country he fled from. Like trying to expose the corruption of the police force and fleeing to the mafia for protection. He's like going from one James Bond villain country of origin to another James Bond villain country of origin while waving the banner of being a honest, wholesome hero of the people. Like I said, it's funny. And it's fun placing bets to see what's the next country he is going to flee to. I am betting he is going end up in Iran.


If he had chosen any of our allies with fantastic 'track records', he would have been shipped back to us within minutes. Look how we can lean on France and Portugal. England is our little biatch. Germany? Maybe.

I loved the pilot episode! Hong Kong! Who would have guessed that?!
 
2013-07-02 09:23:06 PM

djkutch: Peki: djkutch: Didn't Bartlet disappear a plane? The Bermuda Triangle is crazy.

The United States does not engage in regime change through assassination. :)

Where's that Hunt For Red October pic? This could get ugly, and if it does it will get ugly in a hurry.

/if you want know why, swap Bolivia's Pres for US's Obama and see how that scenario plays out. We have to rescue our President from a country in Europe? Oh someone's about to have a very bad day. Rerouting presidents is bad precedent. (Hehe)


Pic from Air Force One was judged malformed.But, rest assured, Harrison Ford kicked Gary Oldman's ass.

www.whichmoviestowatch.com
 
2013-07-02 09:28:24 PM

Evil High Priest: This has Biden's paw prints all over it.


I...Biden?
 
2013-07-02 09:30:05 PM
Heck, I think  every whackadoodle who complains how horrible and oppressive life in the U.S. is should move to Bolivia.
 
2013-07-02 09:31:16 PM
Didn't he only leak basically what they were doing for the most part?
 
2013-07-02 09:33:48 PM

rkiller1: [cdn.mos.totalfilm.com image 470x265]
Others have tried Bolivia and it didn't work out.


well played.
 
2013-07-02 09:34:31 PM
To address the "End of the cold war" comment from up top:  I wonder if they rejected Snowden because they are drifting toward our values, or because they can empathize with our stance on surveillance?
 
2013-07-02 09:35:09 PM

rkiller1: [cdn.mos.totalfilm.com image 470x265]
Others have tried Bolivia and it didn't work out.


Thank You
 
2013-07-02 09:36:33 PM

ThrobblefootSpectre: Heck, I think  every whackadoodle who complains how horrible and oppressive life in the U.S. is should move to Bolivia.


Well, as far as I'm concerned after the complete legislative train wreck that was the 111th Congress, between  Citizens United and redistricting coming down the pike in the 112th, the electorate had  one opportunity left to get the country heading anywhere but off the nearest, tallest cliff. The country raised its head and spoke with one voice, "DERP!".

Now we live in a country in which corporations are people, money is speech, talking heads and shills are policy elite, a minority is a mandate, enforcing tax law is a scandal in and of itself, transparency and accountability are memories, and voting rights are being willfully thrown away by its own electorate. We're the world's richest third-world kleptocracy, and we have  exactly the government we deserve.
 
2013-07-02 09:39:01 PM

Yogimus: To address the "End of the cold war" comment from up top:  I wonder if they rejected Snowden because they are drifting toward our values, or because they can empathize with our stance on surveillance?


Russia? Nah, I get the sense it may have been a "I told them we already gots one [everybody snarfs laughing behind the battlements]" moment on the part of Putin.
 
2013-07-02 09:42:13 PM
Watch for a diversion-- when an anonymous caller informs that Snowden is a member of the flight crew, a disguised low-level airline employee flying as a deadhead in coach goes unnoticed.
 
2013-07-02 09:47:51 PM
I still think he was foolish for turning down Pooty-Poot's offer. Hell, I am functionally fluent in Spanish (lived in Guatemala as a youngster, and later in Honduras, Ecuador and Spain) and  STILL would have chosen to stay in Russia under his circumstances. Bolivia? Third world shiathole.
 
2013-07-02 09:53:05 PM
TwistedFark:
I think the most unclear situation would be if the programs were deemed legal, but as other people have alluded to, something that we cannot stomach continuing in their current form. Great, we change this and the public is satisfied, but technically Snowden still broke the law. At that point I really don't know what to do because by law he needs to be prosecuted (this is my rational side speaking), but emotionally - I'd say let the farker live his life out someplace outside of the US.

I think the real issue is that the government doesn't know what information he has and he's still leaking stuff out. And he's visiting countries with questionable US interests like China and Russia.
 
2013-07-02 09:54:01 PM
he probably has had a bug implanted in his ass so that Uncle Sam can track him.   There
is a price to pay for having access to taboo government info.  The gov't isn't so stupid as to
not implant microchips in their employees who have high level clearance.   Otherwise he
would have just moved to Idaho and assumed another identity.  Nonetheless, there is more
to this story.
 
2013-07-02 09:54:04 PM

that bosnian sniper: ThrobblefootSpectre: Heck, I think  every whackadoodle who complains how horrible and oppressive life in the U.S. is should move to Bolivia.

Well, as far as I'm concerned after the complete legislative train wreck that was the 111th Congress, between  Citizens United and redistricting coming down the pike in the 112th, the electorate had  one opportunity left to get the country heading anywhere but off the nearest, tallest cliff. The country raised its head and spoke with one voice, "DERP!".

Now we live in a country in which corporations are people, money is speech, talking heads and shills are policy elite, a minority is a mandate, enforcing tax law is a scandal in and of itself, transparency and accountability are memories, and voting rights are being willfully thrown away by its own electorate. We're the world's richest third-world kleptocracy, and we have  exactly the government we deserve.



I know, you're very oppressed.  It shows with your every post.  I think the paradise that is Bolivia could be just the place for you.
 
2013-07-02 09:55:36 PM

that bosnian sniper: ThrobblefootSpectre: Heck, I think  every whackadoodle who complains how horrible and oppressive life in the U.S. is should move to Bolivia.

Well, as far as I'm concerned after the complete legislative train wreck that was the 111th Congress, between  Citizens United and redistricting coming down the pike in the 112th, the electorate had  one opportunity left to get the country heading anywhere but off the nearest, tallest cliff. The country raised its head and spoke with one voice, "DERP!".

Now we live in a country in which corporations are people, money is speech, talking heads and shills are policy elite, a minority is a mandate, enforcing tax law is a scandal in and of itself, transparency and accountability are memories, and voting rights are being willfully thrown away by its own electorate. We're the world's richest third-world kleptocracy, and we have  exactly the government we deserve.


I'm beginning to doubt your dedication to Sparkle Motion. It's troubling.
 
2013-07-02 09:57:15 PM

Stone Meadow: I still think he was foolish for turning down Pooty-Poot's offer. Hell, I am functionally fluent in Spanish (lived in Guatemala as a youngster, and later in Honduras, Ecuador and Spain) and  STILL would have chosen to stay in Russia under his circumstances. Bolivia? Third world shiathole.


A third world shiathole from which he would be difficult to track. He could hang out there days or months, only to reappear somewhere else on the planet. Or he could slip across the boarder into Argentina. Economic issues aside, Argentina is a pretty nice country and one that doesn't really care all that much about what the US thinks about them.
 
2013-07-02 09:59:49 PM
There's only going to be one real question if Snowden is captured:

Did he recover the Superbowl Ring?
 
2013-07-02 10:04:44 PM
The plot thickens ... this is interesting as hell.
 
2013-07-02 10:05:13 PM
shame on the USA for lying and spying on its citizens

shame on the world for not offering Snowden refuge from a rogue police state

shame on American citizens for standing around with thumbs in mouths with nothing to say
yet again, as their freedoms and rights are stripped from them over and over and over

why you don't take your country back while there is still a system in place that would allow it
is beyond me.

your right to a fair trial is gone now, you do know that don't you, 'terrorist'?

what's next?  your right to free speech fo shizzle.
 
2013-07-02 10:08:52 PM
It's like an international game of Hot Potato.
 
2013-07-02 10:11:20 PM

xria: The thing that surprises me is that the president of a country can be grounded like this just on suspicion he might have him on board.


If a country refuses airspace, continuing to enter it would be a hostile action. Inadvisable with a President on board. When fuel gets low its a matter of physics, which doesn't care what office you hold. And really, like France gives a shiat about Bolivia.
 
2013-07-02 10:12:20 PM
Sentencing him to life in Bolivia seems cruel.
 
2013-07-02 10:13:57 PM

jsmilky: he probably has had a bug implanted in his ass so that Uncle Sam can track him.   There
is a price to pay for having access to taboo government info.  The gov't isn't so stupid as to
not implant microchips in their employees who have high level clearance.   Otherwise he
would have just moved to Idaho and assumed another identity.  Nonetheless, there is more
to this story.


Where does this insanity come from? Implanted microchips just because you have a security clearance? Someone's been watching too many movies.
 
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