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(hanselman.com)   Microsoft supports Python in latest version of Visual Studios. Linux community upset as MS for supporting anything close to Open Source   (hanselman.com) divider line 51
    More: Cool, Python IDE, Linux community, Microsoft, linux, Hacker News, PHP, Visual Studio, virtual environments  
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1246 clicks; posted to Geek » on 02 Jul 2013 at 11:53 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-02 11:09:06 AM
And now for something completely different.
 
2013-07-02 11:56:01 AM
There's a penguin on my compiler!  No...wait...he's supposed to be there.
 
2013-07-02 12:02:12 PM
www.lemoncurry.nl
 
2013-07-02 12:03:36 PM
You know they'll gimp and bork the sh*t out of it, don't you?
 
2013-07-02 12:18:32 PM

Nadie_AZ: You know they'll gimp and bork the sh*t out of it, don't you?


After the last two years that they have had, I don't know if they have the balls or the clout to do it anymore.

/This ain't daddy's Micro$oft.
 
2013-07-02 12:21:04 PM

PainInTheASP: Nadie_AZ: You know they'll gimp and bork the sh*t out of it, don't you?

After the last two years that they have had, I don't know if they have the balls or the clout to do it anymore.

/This ain't daddy's Micro$oft.


After Windows 8 and Xbox One, I think they still have the balls, but I'm not so sure that they have the clout.
 
2013-07-02 12:25:47 PM
They are also releasing stuff for Hadoop open source. In fact, for certain parts of the Hadoop ecosystem they are near the top of the list for contributions which is interesting.
 
2013-07-02 12:30:50 PM
I've been using Visual Studio for my (limited) Python development since for the last year or so.  It's better than anything else I've used, but I'm too cheap to buy an IDE I don't already get for free.

Most of my .NETy co-workers don't care about Python.
Most of my Pythony co-workers don't care about Visual Studio/Microsoft and wouldn't use it out of principle.

It is a really great setup though.
 
2013-07-02 12:40:54 PM

anfrind: PainInTheASP: Nadie_AZ: You know they'll gimp and bork the sh*t out of it, don't you?

After the last two years that they have had, I don't know if they have the balls or the clout to do it anymore.

/This ain't daddy's Micro$oft.

After Windows 8 and Xbox One, I think they still have the balls, but I'm not so sure that they have the clout.


if you're not making mistakes you aren't trying hard enough.
 
2013-07-02 12:47:47 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: I've been using Visual Studio for my (limited) Python development since for the last year or so.  It's better than anything else I've used, but I'm too cheap to buy an IDE I don't already get for free.

Most of my .NETy co-workers don't care about Python.
Most of my Pythony co-workers don't care about Visual Studio/Microsoft and wouldn't use it out of principle.

It is a really great setup though.


Shhhh you can't admit that anything made by Microsoft is good. You'll lose your nerd cred.  It's OK to like apple despite them being exactly as much an evil and faceless corporation, it's great to love Linux despite a serious lack of market share or brand.  The worst sin you can commit though is liking the good aspects of each and disliking the bad aspects, that basically just makes you a heretic from each of the three one true faiths.
 
2013-07-02 01:12:00 PM

mindflayer: They are also releasing stuff for Hadoop open source. In fact, for certain parts of the Hadoop ecosystem they are near the top of the list for contributions which is interesting.


Isn't Hadoop mostly Java? Does VS compile true Java?
 
2013-07-02 01:32:02 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: I've been using Visual Studio for my (limited) Python development since for the last year or so.  It's better than anything else I've used, but I'm too cheap to buy an IDE I don't already get for free.

Most of my .NETy co-workers don't care about Python.
Most of my Pythony co-workers don't care about Visual Studio/Microsoft and wouldn't use it out of principle.

It is a really great setup though.


Visual Studio is pretty slick.
 
2013-07-02 01:39:36 PM

MindStalker: mindflayer: They are also releasing stuff for Hadoop open source. In fact, for certain parts of the Hadoop ecosystem they are near the top of the list for contributions which is interesting.

Isn't Hadoop mostly Java? Does VS compile true Java?


Yes so MS has people contributing Hive contributions (among other things) for the query side that does translation to Map/Reduce jobs that use Java. They also are writing connectors for .NET (obviously) but surprisingly doing connectors for JavaScript and NodeJS as well.
 
2013-07-02 01:45:32 PM
It takes a MongooSe to  kill a Python.
 
2013-07-02 01:45:42 PM

Egoy3k: Fark_Guy_Rob: I've been using Visual Studio for my (limited) Python development since for the last year or so.  It's better than anything else I've used, but I'm too cheap to buy an IDE I don't already get for free.

Most of my .NETy co-workers don't care about Python.
Most of my Pythony co-workers don't care about Visual Studio/Microsoft and wouldn't use it out of principle.

It is a really great setup though.

Shhhh you can't admit that anything made by Microsoft is good. You'll lose your nerd cred.  It's OK to like apple despite them being exactly as much an evil and faceless corporation, it's great to love Linux despite a serious lack of market share or brand.  The worst sin you can commit though is liking the good aspects of each and disliking the bad aspects, that basically just makes you a heretic from each of the three one true faiths.


I don't care if someone uses whatever they use, but the last time I checked MS had a history of bullying and buying their competition. Apple? I dunno, maybe they went patent crazy but nothing like MS. Linux? I work with and for a few Fortune 500 companies and Linux is covering larger areas of the datacenter than ever before.

The worst sin you can commit though is liking the good aspects of each and disliking the bad aspects

I meet very few people like this, anymore. Maybe I'm just getting old. But the residual MS views do persist even with hardcore MS Admins and developers.
 
2013-07-02 01:53:27 PM

Nadie_AZ: Egoy3k: Fark_Guy_Rob: I've been using Visual Studio for my (limited) Python development since for the last year or so.  It's better than anything else I've used, but I'm too cheap to buy an IDE I don't already get for free.

Most of my .NETy co-workers don't care about Python.
Most of my Pythony co-workers don't care about Visual Studio/Microsoft and wouldn't use it out of principle.

It is a really great setup though.

Shhhh you can't admit that anything made by Microsoft is good. You'll lose your nerd cred.  It's OK to like apple despite them being exactly as much an evil and faceless corporation, it's great to love Linux despite a serious lack of market share or brand.  The worst sin you can commit though is liking the good aspects of each and disliking the bad aspects, that basically just makes you a heretic from each of the three one true faiths.

I don't care if someone uses whatever they use, but the last time I checked MS had a history of bullying and buying their competition. Apple? I dunno, maybe they went patent crazy but nothing like MS. Linux? I work with and for a few Fortune 500 companies and Linux is covering larger areas of the datacenter than ever before.

The worst sin you can commit though is liking the good aspects of each and disliking the bad aspects

I meet very few people like this, anymore. Maybe I'm just getting old. But the residual MS views do persist even with hardcore MS Admins and developers.


Oh well yeah sure I agree. I wasn't talking about actual professional IT people though. I was talking about farkers.
 
2013-07-02 01:58:45 PM

mindflayer: MindStalker: mindflayer: They are also releasing stuff for Hadoop open source. In fact, for certain parts of the Hadoop ecosystem they are near the top of the list for contributions which is interesting.

Isn't Hadoop mostly Java? Does VS compile true Java?

Yes so MS has people contributing Hive contributions (among other things) for the query side that does translation to Map/Reduce jobs that use Java. They also are writing connectors for .NET (obviously) but surprisingly doing connectors for JavaScript and NodeJS as well.


Hold me, I'm afraid..  :)
//Connectors for .NET to talk to HDFS, or for .NET to produce java map/reduce jobs, or both?
 
2013-07-02 02:02:38 PM

Egoy3k: Fark_Guy_Rob: I've been using Visual Studio for my (limited) Python development since for the last year or so.  It's better than anything else I've used, but I'm too cheap to buy an IDE I don't already get for free.

Most of my .NETy co-workers don't care about Python.
Most of my Pythony co-workers don't care about Visual Studio/Microsoft and wouldn't use it out of principle.

It is a really great setup though.

Shhhh you can't admit that anything made by Microsoft is good. You'll lose your nerd cred.  It's OK to like apple despite them being exactly as much an evil and faceless corporation, it's great to love Linux despite a serious lack of market share or brand.  The worst sin you can commit though is liking the good aspects of each and disliking the bad aspects, that basically just makes you a heretic from each of the three one true faiths.


You did know that Linux is basically a hobby for computer scientists, right? Plus, a good majority of  us are hippies.

Market share and brand are about the last things most Linux geeks care about.
 
2013-07-02 02:36:24 PM
Allow me to interject for a moment,  what you refer to as Open Source is not Free Software, nor GPL.   WHARGHARBL THEY ARE STILL CLOSED AND NOT FREE.

For your entertainment, here's a video of Richard M Stallman freaking out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jskq3-lpQnE
 
2013-07-02 02:37:51 PM
WOO! I CAN BE RELEVANT!
 
2013-07-02 02:45:07 PM

mindflayer: Yes so MS has people contributing Hive contributions (among other things) for the query side that does translation to Map/Reduce jobs that use Java. They also are writing connectors for .NET (obviously) but surprisingly doing connectors for JavaScript and NodeJS as well


Remember when Sun was saying that Java would be a Microsoft killer?  We had some Sun folks give a presentation about Java.  Since Sun was protesting PowerPoint, they used an overhead projector even though Harvard Graphics was still around and strong at the time. I don't know why they didn't use HG.  They looked absurd pushing Java as 'the next great technology trend' using luddite technologies.  Good times were had by all.
 
2013-07-02 03:00:03 PM
Visual Studios? Really, subby?
 
wee [TotalFark]
2013-07-02 03:00:18 PM

0z79: Market share and brand are about the last things most Linux geeks care about.


And yet Linux has quite a lot of both.

His original statement was nonsensical.
 
2013-07-02 03:00:51 PM

MindStalker: mindflayer: They are also releasing stuff for Hadoop open source. In fact, for certain parts of the Hadoop ecosystem they are near the top of the list for contributions which is interesting.

Isn't Hadoop mostly Java? Does VS compile true Java?


Since you can get a JDK for Windows I would be shocked if VS didn't have the ability to compile true Java by calling javac. I don't use VS so I could be wrong but I would still be shocked.
 
2013-07-02 03:03:06 PM

Muta: mindflayer: Yes so MS has people contributing Hive contributions (among other things) for the query side that does translation to Map/Reduce jobs that use Java. They also are writing connectors for .NET (obviously) but surprisingly doing connectors for JavaScript and NodeJS as well

Remember when Sun was saying that Java would be a Microsoft killer?  We had some Sun folks give a presentation about Java.  Since Sun was protesting PowerPoint, they used an overhead projector even though Harvard Graphics was still around and strong at the time. I don't know why they didn't use HG.  They looked absurd pushing Java as 'the next great technology trend' using luddite technologies.  Good times were had by all.


well Linux, Servlets, Java, and Oracle running on Linux certainly kept Microsoft out of the datacenter. I would say Java contributed much to killing Microsoft as the defacto datacenter server operating system company.
 
2013-07-02 03:17:41 PM

wee: 0z79: Market share and brand are about the last things most Linux geeks care about.

And yet Linux has quite a lot of both.

His original statement was nonsensical.


www.maximumpc.com

Yes it's just desktop OS but I can't really compare Linux to other categories now can I? They don't make a lot of the other things that Microsoft and Apple make since there is no 'they' so much as there is a large group of like minded people.
 
2013-07-02 03:26:11 PM

Egoy3k: wee: 0z79: Market share and brand are about the last things most Linux geeks care about.

And yet Linux has quite a lot of both.

His original statement was nonsensical.

[www.maximumpc.com image 580x300]

Yes it's just desktop OS but I can't really compare Linux to other categories now can I? They don't make a lot of the other things that Microsoft and Apple make since there is no 'they' so much as there is a large group of like minded people.


There's also server OS, and Linux makes up quite a bit of that market.  I've been having trouble finding hard numbers but, yeah, it's a significant percentage.
 
2013-07-02 03:32:36 PM

meanmutton: Egoy3k: wee: 0z79: Market share and brand are about the last things most Linux geeks care about.

And yet Linux has quite a lot of both.

His original statement was nonsensical.

[www.maximumpc.com image 580x300]

Yes it's just desktop OS but I can't really compare Linux to other categories now can I? They don't make a lot of the other things that Microsoft and Apple make since there is no 'they' so much as there is a large group of like minded people.

There's also server OS, and Linux makes up quite a bit of that market.  I've been having trouble finding hard numbers but, yeah, it's a significant percentage.


I know and I agree Linux does well in that area but please bear in mind that a large percentage of the construction equipment used to build highways is great for Toyota but they make their bucks on consumer automobiles.  I wasn't trying to gloss over that fact but I had similar trouble finding the data.
 
2013-07-02 03:50:48 PM
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.
 
2013-07-02 04:02:24 PM
Egoy3k:

[www.maximumpc.com image 580x300]

Yes it's just desktop OS but I can't really compare Linux to other categories now can I? They don't make a lot of the other things that Microsoft and Apple make since there is no 'they' so much as there is a large group of like minded people.


What categories are not applicable to Linux that are for Microsoft and Apple?  I'd really like to know what you're trying to say by that.
 
2013-07-02 04:23:16 PM

0100010: What categories are not applicable to Linux that are for Microsoft and Apple? I'd really like to know what you're trying to say by that.


Hardware comes to mind.

Linux is just an OS.
 
2013-07-02 04:31:56 PM

Egoy3k: meanmutton: Egoy3k: wee: 0z79: Market share and brand are about the last things most Linux geeks care about.

And yet Linux has quite a lot of both.

His original statement was nonsensical.

[www.maximumpc.com image 580x300]

Yes it's just desktop OS but I can't really compare Linux to other categories now can I? They don't make a lot of the other things that Microsoft and Apple make since there is no 'they' so much as there is a large group of like minded people.

There's also server OS, and Linux makes up quite a bit of that market.  I've been having trouble finding hard numbers but, yeah, it's a significant percentage.

I know and I agree Linux does well in that area but please bear in mind that a large percentage of the construction equipment used to build highways is great for Toyota but they make their bucks on consumer automobiles.  I wasn't trying to gloss over that fact but I had similar trouble finding the data.


What kernel do Android tablets and smartphones run?

Linux isn't winning on the desktop, but "the desktop" is no longer winning as much personal computing.
 
2013-07-02 04:38:04 PM
*backs away from the thread*

Sorry Linux guys. I didn't mean to ruffle your neckbeards I really wasn't trying to make fun of Linux.

/OK I was making fun of you with the whole neckbeards thing
//some of the linux enthusiasts are girls and therefore don't have neckbeards
///they shave
 
2013-07-02 05:19:59 PM
It's VISUAL STUDIO, NOT STUDIOS!  Subby never was a developer.
 
2013-07-02 05:28:28 PM
I was wondering about if there were any good Python IDEs out there... and now I know the answer.

It'll be interesting to see if Microsoft begins to offer up more support for IronRuby and IronPython. They were just MSR projects, IIRC...
 
2013-07-02 05:29:49 PM

Nadie_AZ: I don't care if someone uses whatever they use, but the last time I checked MS had a history of bullying and buying their competition.


In more recent history, Microsoft hired a bunch of smart people and actually listened to them. Microsoft is a huge contributor and generator of open source software. They've taken to bundling all sorts of open source packages in their products (in compliance with the FOSS licenses). In their next version of their source control system, they'll have bundled in Git, and not a crudded-up, Microsoft version of Git- it's pure Git.

Microsoft's open source stuff is actually really awesome.
 
2013-07-02 05:31:50 PM

MrEricSir: Visual Studios? Really, subby?


To be fair, I have to be very careful about opening any particular solution file in VS2008, VS2010, and VS2012 (THE SHOUTING EDITION!).

This probably speaks more toward our code management than I should admit... Point being: subby is retarded, yet technically valid.
 
2013-07-02 05:34:04 PM

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: VS2008, VS2010, and VS2012


At least VS2012+ can roundtrip back to 2010 projects. Now, if only the SQL and BizTalk teams could actually get on board with the Visual Studio release cycle...
 
2013-07-02 05:37:00 PM

PedanticSimpleton: Allow me to interject for a moment,  what you refer to as Open Source is not Free Software, nor GPL.   WHARGHARBL THEY ARE STILL CLOSED AND NOT FREE.

For your entertainment, here's a video of Richard M Stallman freaking out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jskq3-lpQnE


It's been a while since we've had a good Stallman thread. We're really past due.

/Ballmer might be weird, but he's no Stallman
 
2013-07-02 05:40:57 PM

Gonz: Egoy3k: meanmutton: Egoy3k: wee: 0z79: Market share and brand are about the last things most Linux geeks care about.

And yet Linux has quite a lot of both.

His original statement was nonsensical.

[www.maximumpc.com image 580x300]

Yes it's just desktop OS but I can't really compare Linux to other categories now can I? They don't make a lot of the other things that Microsoft and Apple make since there is no 'they' so much as there is a large group of like minded people.

There's also server OS, and Linux makes up quite a bit of that market.  I've been having trouble finding hard numbers but, yeah, it's a significant percentage.

I know and I agree Linux does well in that area but please bear in mind that a large percentage of the construction equipment used to build highways is great for Toyota but they make their bucks on consumer automobiles.  I wasn't trying to gloss over that fact but I had similar trouble finding the data.

What kernel do Android tablets and smartphones run?

Linux isn't winning on the desktop, but "the desktop" is no longer winning as much personal computing.


Technically speaking, it's not winning on the smartphone, either. That's the Dalvik JVM winning there... albeit in a rather crude and unrefined fashion.

You can run "Android" on NT if you want. You can also run Mono on the kernel in Android instead of Dalvik.
 
wee [TotalFark]
2013-07-02 06:09:01 PM

Egoy3k: Yes it's just desktop OS


Which is becoming an increasingly smaller part of "the computer market"...

Egoy3k: Sorry Linux guys. I didn't mean to ruffle your neckbeards I really wasn't trying to make fun of Linux.


You didn't ruffle anything, and you weren't making fun of anything.  You were merely talking out of your ass, and making non-sensical statements based on the limited and anecdotal info your narrow perspective provides you.  Like I said.

I use Windows every day at home and work, so there wasn't much to ruffle to start with.  But bullshiat is bullshiat, and you were spreading it a little too thick...
 
2013-07-02 06:54:24 PM

t3knomanser: Microsoft's open source stuff is actually really awesome.


The quality of microsofts products is inversely proportional to how much attention it gets.
 
2013-07-02 07:23:54 PM

fluffy2097: 0100010: What categories are not applicable to Linux that are for Microsoft and Apple? I'd really like to know what you're trying to say by that.

Hardware comes to mind.

Linux is just an OS.


The problem is that the person I'm responding to pointed out the limited scope of the data presented but tried to make it sound like there weren't other areas that might affect the numbers.  In a discussion about OS market share, when someone posts figures for "just Desktop OS" and says that other categories aren't applicable for it, it implies that Linux isn't offered for non-Desktop categories.  We're talking about a specific market and anything outside of that discussion is a wild tangent.  Tablets and mp3 players aren't even close to the discussion.  If it did, we could replace Linux with any of the three mentioned providers since, for examples, Microsoft isn't applicable in the cell phone category and Apple isn't in the console category.
 
2013-07-02 07:33:48 PM

palan: The quality of microsofts products is inversely proportional to how much attention it gets.


This is a fairly accurate statement. They treat developers really well. Visual Studio might be a bit of a resource hog, but it's a great IDE. And now that they're on 3-week sprints for both VS and TFS, I expect that it's going to get better very quickly. Their product is driven by the people who use the product, not by management looking for marketable features. The work they're doing in Entity Framework is awesome. Yes, EF is never going to compete with your hand-coded SQL, and it still has some ugly warts. But it's one of the best ORM tools out there. MVC isn't the best web framework, but it's a good compromise between the Microsoft way and what everybody else does. WebAPI is a first foray into something like ExpressJS. The whole thing ties nicely into the Microsoft ecosystem. Since I do Intranet apps, I have almost  never needed to write any user-management features.  NuGet is a solid package manager and offers features that are "must haves" in the corporate world.

And, for the record, I'm typing this on a MacBookPro which has never had a copy of Windows anywhere near its gigantic SSD. I ain't no Microsoft fanboy.
 
2013-07-02 08:37:43 PM

t3knomanser: This is a fairly accurate statement. They treat developers really well. Visual Studio might be a bit of a resource hog, but it's a great IDE. And now that they're on 3-week sprints for both VS and TFS, I expect that it's going to get better very quickly. Their product is driven by the people who use the product, not by management looking for marketable features. The work they're doing in Entity Framework is awesome. Yes, EF is never going to compete with your hand-coded SQL, and it still has some ugly warts. But it's one of the best ORM tools out there. MVC isn't the best web framework, but it's a good compromise between the Microsoft way and what everybody else does. WebAPI is a first foray into something like ExpressJS. The whole thing ties nicely into the Microsoft ecosystem. Since I do Intranet apps, I have almost  never needed to write any user-management features.  NuGet is a solid package manager and offers features that are "must haves" in the corporate world.


t3knomanser: This is a fairly accurate statement. They treat developers really well. Visual Studio might be a bit of a resource hog, but it's a great IDE. And now that they're on 3-week sprints for both VS and TFS, I expect that it's going to get better very quickly. Their product is driven by the people who use the product, not by management looking for marketable features. The work they're doing in Entity Framework is awesome. Yes, EF is never going to compete with your hand-coded SQL, and it still has some ugly warts. But it's one of the best ORM tools out there. MVC isn't the best web framework, but it's a good compromise between the Microsoft way and what everybody else does. WebAPI is a first foray into something like ExpressJS. The whole thing ties nicely into the Microsoft ecosystem. Since I do Intranet apps, I have almost  never needed to write any user-management features.  NuGet is a solid package manager and offers features that are "must haves" in the corporate world.


It's important to consider Microsoft as almost being several different companies.  I've spent the last few years writing drivers.   The windows team management seems to be around to simply force their idea of how a PC should behave on everyone else.    Dealing with their managers has generally been painful.  Dealing with the VS team, primarily back-end as we occasionally file compiler bugs with them, is great and they fix everything fairly quickly.  Windbg is another great team to deal with.
 
2013-07-02 09:25:36 PM

palan: It's important to consider Microsoft as almost being several different companies.  I've spent the last few years writing drivers.   The windows team management seems to be around to simply force their idea of how a PC should behave on everyone else.    Dealing with their managers has generally been painful.  Dealing with the VS team, primarily back-end as we occasionally file compiler bugs with them, is great and they fix everything fairly quickly.  Windbg is another great team to deal with.


Yeah, I'd never ever work at MSFT again without knowing exactly which team I was going to deal with.  Some are good, some are bad.  (Also, I absolutely refuse to work with Farked C++ as my main language.  I'll happily do .NET or actual C++, but Farked C++ was a neverending nightmare)

/Of course, since the last time I was there, I was a clueless sophomore at my first "real world" experience (Among other things, I wasn't used to compile times of more than a minute (8 hours for a full build) or waiting 3 days to have a meeting), and totally farked up to an insane degree, I doubt they would want me back.
 
2013-07-02 09:36:07 PM

Marine1: You can also run Mono on the kernel in Android


I actually wish that Mono would become a standard system package in Android.  There are a couple of C# development wrapper packages available, but they're only installed in an application's directory and cannot be shared across apps.  So you're hit with some overhead for every app that uses it.
 
2013-07-02 10:34:07 PM

Nadie_AZ: You know they'll gimp and bork the sh*t out of it, don't you?


Hell, using Visual Studio as an IDE will do that all by itself.
 
2013-07-02 11:16:51 PM

Dinjiin: Marine1: You can also run Mono on the kernel in Android

I actually wish that Mono would become a standard system package in Android.  There are a couple of C# development wrapper packages available, but they're only installed in an application's directory and cannot be shared across apps.  So you're hit with some overhead for every app that uses it.


That probably won't happen until Mono becomes complete .NET.

It'll be interesting to see how long .NET stays Microsoft's. They'll have to make a choice sooner rather than later: keep the libraries and other stuff to themselves and risk stunting the growth of C#-centered tools like Gtk#, Xamarin, Unity and MonoGame (which are gaining steam as cross-platform development tools), or open source the heart of the framework and throw out what's sure to be a good amount of Windows-centered code to the whole world.

If they want to remain relevant, they'll have to do the latter. Theoretically, being a "devices and services" company would allow them to do this better than a software company, and that's what they're transitioning in to.
 
2013-07-03 10:10:58 AM

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: MrEricSir: Visual Studios? Really, subby?

To be fair, I have to be very careful about opening any particular solution file in VS2008, VS2010, and VS2012 (THE SHOUTING EDITION!).

This probably speaks more toward our code management than I should admit... Point being: subby is retarded, yet technically valid.


You can turn off the shouting with a registry hack.  And you can also turn the purple theme back to blue once you install the service pack.  I did those two things and it's actually becaome pretty nice.  Still don't know if I like the app window borders.  They're too pointy.
 
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