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(Washington Post)   Remember how the sequester was supposed to turn America into Mad Max meets Lord of the Flies? Seems we can live without a little spending   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 269
    More: Obvious, Concord Coalition  
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1725 clicks; posted to Politics » on 02 Jul 2013 at 10:49 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-02 12:56:22 PM

cman: People take shiat to the extremes.

We need to stop bullshiatting ourselves and stop being afraid of our own farking shadows.

The apocalypse isnt coming! Even if it were there is nothing we could do about it.


Well, not with THAT type of attitude (America: Doing things is hard, so we don't do things! fark YEH!)
 
2013-07-02 12:56:47 PM

MattStafford: sabreWulf07: Depends.  Are you going to live forever and have effectively unlimited credit?  If so, then deficit spending is the way to go.

You might want to rethink that concept.  Central Banks just sold a record amount of US debt, and treasury yields spiked.


[Citation please]

How are we selling "record amount" of US debt when the deficit is now less and decreasing?
 
2013-07-02 12:57:46 PM

lunogled: Yes, well, science in the US is experiencing a disaster but who needs them learned people?
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v498/n7455/full/nj7455-527a.html


Research funding has completely dried up.

My thesis adviser's NIH grant is gone. But, was it really important to cut down on spreading penicillin-resistant infections in a hospital?

My DARPA research funding is gone. But, saving guy's lives in the field in Afghanistan isn't half as important as tax breaks for the 1%.
 
2013-07-02 12:57:46 PM

Mercutio74: Not all deficit spending is created equal.  Pretty much every country in the world is a deficit spender, it's how you do it that matters.


Yeah, deficit spending on productive things  (like infrastructure and education)  is good.  Deficit spending on non productive things (like a safety net and the military) is a bad thing.
 
2013-07-02 12:59:56 PM

MattStafford: sabreWulf07: Depends.  Are you going to live forever and have effectively unlimited credit?  If so, then deficit spending is the way to go.

You might want to rethink that concept.  Central Banks just sold a record amount of US debt, and treasury yields spiked.


Doesn't the TREASURY sell US debt? Not the Central bank?
 
2013-07-02 01:00:01 PM

Corvus: MattStafford: sabreWulf07: Depends.  Are you going to live forever and have effectively unlimited credit?  If so, then deficit spending is the way to go.

You might want to rethink that concept.  Central Banks just sold a record amount of US debt, and treasury yields spiked.

[Citation please]

How are we selling "record amount" of US debt when the deficit is now less and decreasing?


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732418860457854516168352 6 132.html

Enjoy.
 
2013-07-02 01:01:02 PM

MattStafford: Mercutio74: Not all deficit spending is created equal.  Pretty much every country in the world is a deficit spender, it's how you do it that matters.

Yeah, deficit spending on productive things  (like infrastructure and education)  is good.  Deficit spending on non productive things (like a safety net and the military) is a bad thing.


Why on the safety net is a bad thing? Don't those people spend that money in the economy?

Do you think it costs less to put people in prison then helping to make them productive workers that then can pay income?
 
2013-07-02 01:01:59 PM

MattStafford: Mercutio74: Not all deficit spending is created equal.  Pretty much every country in the world is a deficit spender, it's how you do it that matters.

Yeah, deficit spending on productive things  (like infrastructure and education)  is good.  Deficit spending on non productive things (like a safety net and the military) is a bad thing.


I mostly agree.  A well-run safety net actually does supply a positive ROI to the gov't and the nation.  For example, you don't want to lose a skilled worker because he or she will be faced with a temporary inability to work (due to either illness/injury or something more macroeconomic like Wall St. deciding to defraud the globe).
 
2013-07-02 01:02:05 PM

Corvus: Doesn't the TREASURY sell US debt? Not the Central bank?


http://www.cnbc.com/id/100852546

Didn't like the WSJ link, hopefully this one works.

And yeah, the initially the Treasury sells debt, and then that debt can be sold throughout the markets just like any other security can.
 
2013-07-02 01:02:06 PM

MattStafford: Corvus: MattStafford: sabreWulf07: Depends.  Are you going to live forever and have effectively unlimited credit?  If so, then deficit spending is the way to go.

You might want to rethink that concept.  Central Banks just sold a record amount of US debt, and treasury yields spiked.

[Citation please]

How are we selling "record amount" of US debt when the deficit is now less and decreasing?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732418860457854516168352 6 132.html

Enjoy.


Wow a link to an article I can't read, that's very good.

Now can you link to something I can actually read?
 
2013-07-02 01:05:10 PM

Corvus: You don't understand what you read. The TREASURY sells Treasury bonds the Central bank was RESELLING it.


FTFM
 
2013-07-02 01:05:15 PM

Mercutio74: I mostly agree.  A well-run safety net actually does supply a positive ROI to the gov't and the nation.  For example, you don't want to lose a skilled worker because he or she will be faced with a temporary inability to work (due to either illness/injury or something more macroeconomic like Wall St. deciding to defraud the globe).


I would disagree on the safety net being a positive ROI.  Would a Sub-Saharan country have a stronger economy if they borrowed a bunch of money and instituted a safety net?  I would argue no.
 
2013-07-02 01:05:24 PM

vpb: Unless you're poor and rely on community health centers or one of the other health programs cut, but I guess subby didn't include them in "we".


Empathy is a poor people's emotion.
 
2013-07-02 01:08:09 PM

MattStafford: Mercutio74: I mostly agree.  A well-run safety net actually does supply a positive ROI to the gov't and the nation.  For example, you don't want to lose a skilled worker because he or she will be faced with a temporary inability to work (due to either illness/injury or something more macroeconomic like Wall St. deciding to defraud the globe).

I would disagree on the safety net being a positive ROI.  Would a Sub-Saharan country have a stronger economy if they borrowed a bunch of money and instituted a safety net?  I would argue no.


So you thing the US is the same as Sub-Saharan country economically?
 
2013-07-02 01:08:42 PM

mediablitz: vpb: Unless you're poor and rely on community health centers or one of the other health programs cut, but I guess subby didn't include them in "we".

I'm sure the 70,000 North Carolinians who lost unemployment benefits are saying the "little bit of less spending" is working out great for them too!

As long as you don't actually LOOK (talking about the author of this article), everything is just farking peachy!


Oh noes!! Fewer people are getting free money for doing nothing? The horror!!
 
2013-07-02 01:09:38 PM
I took a 20% pay cut in 2007 a little before the birth of my 1st kid. It sucked but I kept at my job for the next 3-4 years, then was looking at another 25% cut from what was left over (switching to 3 days/wk rather than 4). Things weren't looking too brightly for the future of my line of work at that company so I quit to go out on my own. I then proceeded to be pretty well broke for a couple years, maxing out my credit, quit paying the mortgage, etc. But now things are starting to turn around. I'm hoping to file bankruptcy soon. That used to be scary to me but now I see it as the best decision I can make for myself and my family. This is my American Dream.
 
2013-07-02 01:10:10 PM

MattStafford: Mercutio74: I mostly agree.  A well-run safety net actually does supply a positive ROI to the gov't and the nation.  For example, you don't want to lose a skilled worker because he or she will be faced with a temporary inability to work (due to either illness/injury or something more macroeconomic like Wall St. deciding to defraud the globe).

I would disagree on the safety net being a positive ROI.  Would a Sub-Saharan country have a stronger economy if they borrowed a bunch of money and instituted a safety net?  I would argue no.


Tell us about the coconuts, George.
 
2013-07-02 01:10:15 PM

Corvus: So you thing the US is the same as Sub-Saharan country economically?


Until you explain to me why a debt financed safety net in the US would have an ROI greater than one and a debt financed safety net in Sub-Saharan Africa would have an ROI less than one, I will operate under the assumption that a debt financed safety net works similarly in all countries.
 
2013-07-02 01:10:28 PM

MattStafford: Corvus: Doesn't the TREASURY sell US debt? Not the Central bank?

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100852546

Didn't like the WSJ link, hopefully this one works.

And yeah, the initially the Treasury sells debt, and then that debt can be sold throughout the markets just like any other security can.


You understand the difference between the Treasury selling bonds and the Central bank buying them and reselling them?

Are you saying then you are against reducing quantitative easing and want the Central bank to continue to buy up treasuries?
 
2013-07-02 01:11:51 PM

MattStafford: Corvus: So you thing the US is the same as Sub-Saharan country economically?

Until you explain to me why a debt financed safety net in the US would have an ROI greater than one and a debt financed safety net in Sub-Saharan Africa would have an ROI less than one, I will operate under the assumption that a debt financed safety net works similarly in all countries.


Because they US has higher incomes so when someone gets a job in the US they raise more in tax revenue.
 
2013-07-02 01:12:49 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: Tell us about the coconuts, George.


Suppose the government borrows one trillion dollars tomorrow, and distributes it to all people below a certain income level.  One year later, the government raises taxes by one trillion dollars (plus interest).  You believe that the economy is stronger after these two actions take place than before these two actions take place?
 
2013-07-02 01:13:09 PM

MattStafford: Corvus: So you thing the US is the same as Sub-Saharan country economically?

Until you explain to me why a debt financed safety net in the US would have an ROI greater than one and a debt financed safety net in Sub-Saharan Africa would have an ROI less than one, I will operate under the assumption that a debt financed safety net works similarly in all countries.


Sorry had to quote this again because this shows pretty drastically how you really don't understand anything if you think the US government economically works the as sub-Saharan Africa.
 
2013-07-02 01:13:52 PM

PanicMan: This will actually be a problem. They're talking Reduction in Force (RIF) cuts next year. Basically, the govt may start firing people.


Unpossible. The government doesn't create jobs.
 
2013-07-02 01:14:42 PM

MattStafford: A Dark Evil Omen: Tell us about the coconuts, George.

Suppose the government borrows one trillion dollars tomorrow, and distributes it to all people below a certain income level.  One year later, the government raises taxes by one trillion dollars (plus interest).  You believe that the economy is stronger after these two actions take place than before these two actions take place?


Suppose a corporation takes one trillion dollars and sets it on fire. The would go bankrupt. Obviously this means capitalism can never work!!!
 
2013-07-02 01:14:44 PM

snowshovel: A relative of mine who works for the FBI was talking about the furloughs that he is going to start going through. His wife added "because of Obama."

Since we had to spend the rest of the week at their house as a guest, I decided against explaining the non-Fox News version of how the sequestration works.


Moocher! Taker! 47%er!
 
2013-07-02 01:15:20 PM
The sequester is currently killing US scientific research in many sectors, with repercussions that will travel up and down the economy for years to come.
 
2013-07-02 01:15:32 PM

MattStafford: A Dark Evil Omen: Tell us about the coconuts, George.

Suppose the government borrows one trillion dollars tomorrow, and distributes it to all people below a certain income level.  One year later, the government raises taxes by one trillion dollars (plus interest).  You believe that the economy is stronger after these two actions take place than before these two actions take place?


Beautiful! There's that MattStafford comedy gold!
 
2013-07-02 01:16:12 PM

MattStafford: A Dark Evil Omen: Tell us about the coconuts, George.

Suppose the government borrows one trillion dollars tomorrow, and distributes it to all people below a certain income level.  One year later, the government raises taxes by one trillion dollars (plus interest).  You believe that the economy is stronger after these two actions take place than before these two actions take place?


They wouldn't have to "raise taxes" the people spend money and every transaction that is made with that money would be additional tax revenue.
 
2013-07-02 01:17:15 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: MattStafford: A Dark Evil Omen: Tell us about the coconuts, George.

Suppose the government borrows one trillion dollars tomorrow, and distributes it to all people below a certain income level.  One year later, the government raises taxes by one trillion dollars (plus interest).  You believe that the economy is stronger after these two actions take place than before these two actions take place?

Beautiful! There's that MattStafford comedy gold!


OMG, I'm still laugh that he thinks the US economy works the same as the economies of Sub-Saharan Africa.
 
2013-07-02 01:17:33 PM

sabreWulf07: Debeo Summa Credo: When you are in debt and spending more than you earn, do you borrow more to maintain your unsustainable lifestyle?

Depends.  Are you going to live forever and have effectively unlimited credit?  If so, then deficit spending is the way to go.


"effectively unlimited credit"? Wow, I never thought of it that way! I was way off.

I assume you were against the expiration of any of the Bush tax cuts, right? I mean, we have effectively unlimited credit! Why bother with that whole fiscal cliff charade to make 1/8th of the cuts expire? Why not just borrow the difference? Hell, why not just lower taxes? Why not eliminate them altogether? We can just borrow more!

And why do only the unemployed get unemployment benefits? We should get a deficit financed employment benefit, amirite? We are going to live forever and have effectively unlimited credit!

Man, what a relief. Tax cuts and gold obamaphones all around!!
 
2013-07-02 01:17:48 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: When you are in debt and spending more than you earn, do you borrow more to maintain your unsustainable lifestyle?


The trick is to spend the money you borrow on things that will improve your long term financial standing. Businesses go into debt all the time to but new equipment, supplies and facilities in the hopes that these investments will pay off. Individuals do this too: student loans are a prime example, and so is getting a mortgage to live someplace closer to a good job.

The government really isn't any different: It's fine to borrow money provided that money is spent on things that improve the long term financial outlook... things that have a promise of a return. Things like education so you will have an intelligent and employable workforce in two or three generations from now, or infrastructure so the businesses of tomorrow can move the goods they consume and produce efficiently, or alternative energy programs that will help reduce the hundreds of billions of dollars that leave the country from fuel imports while also lowering operating costs for businesses so they can be more competitive, or research that will become the technologies upon which entire new industries will be based upon, or health care so people aren't going bankrupt and are healthy enough to show up for work.
=Smidge=
 
2013-07-02 01:19:28 PM

Corvus: A Dark Evil Omen: MattStafford: A Dark Evil Omen: Tell us about the coconuts, George.

Suppose the government borrows one trillion dollars tomorrow, and distributes it to all people below a certain income level.  One year later, the government raises taxes by one trillion dollars (plus interest).  You believe that the economy is stronger after these two actions take place than before these two actions take place?

Beautiful! There's that MattStafford comedy gold!

OMG, I'm still laugh that he thinks the US economy works the same as the economies of Sub-Saharan Africa.


Taken as a whole, his body of work makes him one of the best comedy trolls on Fark.
 
2013-07-02 01:20:01 PM
Is it fairly obvious to anyone else that Corvus has no agenda besides derailing threads I post in?  I mean, he's responded to some of my posts multiple times adding absolutely nothing to the conversation.
 
2013-07-02 01:20:04 PM
Are you guys seriously arguing with the coconut guy again?

Good lord.
 
2013-07-02 01:21:03 PM
Arkanaut: DON.MAC: So the best congress is an ineffective congress?

"Best congress" suggests that there's an alternative.


I think that the alternative to "Best congress" is South Congress.....

Navy Civillian along with wife - a two-fer.  Looking forward to the stacations watching the Travel Channel....and camping.  Could be worse, but it's going to be tough for a while.  Civillian Government workers sure are spoiled.....

I'm sure there will be repercussions when a Captain, or an Admiral or other high ranking Millitary Commander can't get support for his units on Furlough Friday.  Something is likely going to happen and someone will complain.  But hard to say whether it will be enough to pick the boot up from the ankle.

As the economy drags it's ass along, it's the "flesh wounding" of a thousand cuts.
 
2013-07-02 01:23:22 PM

MattStafford: Corvus: So you thing the US is the same as Sub-Saharan country economically?

Until you explain to me why a debt financed safety net in the US would have an ROI greater than one and a debt financed safety net in Sub-Saharan Africa would have an ROI less than one, I will operate under the assumption that a debt financed safety net works similarly in all countries.


Gross National Income/Capita Sub-Saharan US: : $50,120
Gross National Income/Capita Sub-Saharan Africa: $1,345

Well that's a big one.
 
2013-07-02 01:23:32 PM

MattStafford: A Dark Evil Omen: Tell us about the coconuts, George.

Suppose the government borrows one trillion dollars tomorrow, and distributes it to all people below a certain income level.  One year later, the government raises taxes by one trillion dollars (plus interest).  You believe that the economy is stronger after these two actions take place than before these two actions take place?


No, no, stupid. You don't pay it back, you just borrow more to pay the interest.

Of course, it wouldn't be fair to subject the recipients of the $1trillion benefit this year to a draconian $1trillion cut to benefits next year, so we ought to give them another trillion (with a cost of living adjustment, naturally) next year. We'll just borrow that as well. And so on and so on.

Don't worry about paying it back. We have effectively unlimited credit and are going to live forever.
 
2013-07-02 01:23:49 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: When you are in debt and spending more than you earn, do you borrow more to maintain your unsustainable lifestyle?


If I am in debt to my friends and I can't afford my rent, I borrow more money from them so that I don't end up homeless.  I don't start paying back my debt with my rent money instead.

And since the US seems pretty keen on reducing revenue as well, apparently part of the solution is to make my wife quit her job as well.
 
2013-07-02 01:24:19 PM

MattStafford: Is it fairly obvious to anyone else that Corvus has no agenda besides derailing threads I post in?  I mean, he's responded to some of my posts multiple times adding absolutely nothing to the conversation.


You asked me a question, I responded with my answer. How is that "derailing "?

Me answering your question is "derailing"?
 
2013-07-02 01:24:20 PM

Tor_Eckman: Are you guys seriously arguing with the coconut guy again?

Good lord.


I just want to hear about the coconuts and fish and monkeys on pogo sticks. It always puts a big smile on my face. Is that so wrong?
 
2013-07-02 01:24:25 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: Beautiful! There's that MattStafford comedy gold!


The StaffordCUBE never fails to please.  But in all seriousness, that is what people are suggesting.  If we borrow money and spend it on unproductive things (like transfer payments), our economy will actually be stronger after we collect taxes and pay off that debt (plus the interest).  That doesn't even take into consideration the misallocation of capital that occurs.
 
2013-07-02 01:25:16 PM
csb

My sister and her kids were coming to Chicago for the air and water show in August. Then the sequestration happened and the headliners (Thunderbirds) and a number of other groups were forced to cancel. You know who else cancelled? My sister and her kids. Thanks 0bumber.

/csb
 
2013-07-02 01:25:38 PM

austerity101: If I am in debt to my friends and I can't afford my rent, I borrow more money from them so that I don't end up homeless.  I don't start paying back my debt with my rent money instead.


We're rapidly running out of friends.
 
2013-07-02 01:27:13 PM

Tor_Eckman: Are you guys seriously arguing with the coconut guy again?

Good lord.


First off he seemed to have thought that the Central bank is the originator of selling Treasury bonds not the treasury. (he has refused to clarify when I asked him more question about it so I am assuming he was confused.)

Then he said that the economy in the US and Sub-sarah Africa are similar so if something wouldn't work in Sub-sarah Africa it couldn't work in the US.
 
2013-07-02 01:27:25 PM

The_Gallant_Gallstone: PanicMan: Deficit spending is how every country in the world works. Our "lifestyle" is still perfectly sustainable

If deficit spending is rational, its advocates have to put forth a strong formulation for it, given that it runs counter to sensible economic management at the household level.

The prudent voter may be wrong to think that the government should function like a household (income should exceed expenses), but that mistake is forgiveable if a strong explanation to the contrary is not provided.


Eh, even in a household, income shouldn't always exceed expenses. There are times you have to expend more money than you've got in order to have more options or comfort.  Buying a car or taking a student loan, for instance, are both big expenditures but afford you more options down the road, like getting a job.

Sure, it's ideal, but not necessary.  If you've got a choice between paying for the groceries vs putting the groceries on credit and paying for the car, you take the latter because it lets you continue working/job hunting, etc.  On a household or national level, if the economy stalls, it's harder to get started again because of the damages done during the stall. It's wiser and more efficient to use credit/deficit spending to keep things afloat long enough for the natural waxing cycle to begin again.
 
2013-07-02 01:28:18 PM

MattStafford: A Dark Evil Omen: Beautiful! There's that MattStafford comedy gold!

The StaffordCUBE never fails to please.  But in all seriousness, that is what people are suggesting.   If we borrow money and spend it on unproductive things (like transfer payments), our economy will actually be stronger after we collect taxes and pay off that debt (plus the interest).  That doesn't even take into consideration the misallocation of capital that occurs.


Who is really suggesting that? Can you give an example of something people (seriously) want to spend money that is completely unproductive?
 
2013-07-02 01:29:36 PM

austerity101: Debeo Summa Credo: When you are in debt and spending more than you earn, do you borrow more to maintain your unsustainable lifestyle?

If I am in debt to my friends and I can't afford my rent, I borrow more money from them so that I don't end up homeless.  I don't start paying back my debt with my rent money instead.

And since the US seems pretty keen on reducing revenue as well, apparently part of the solution is to make my wife quit her job as well.


But you do cancel your cable, right? Or at least switch from the gold plan with HBO and Showtime to basic cable. Thats a better analogy for the sequester cuts than not paying your rent.
 
2013-07-02 01:32:50 PM

Corvus: Who is really suggesting that? Can you give an example of something people (seriously) want to spend money that is completely unproductive?


www.sci.fi
 
2013-07-02 01:32:56 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: But you do cancel your cable, right? Or at least switch from the gold plan with HBO and Showtime to basic cable. Thats a better analogy for the sequester cuts than not paying your rent.


Canceling your cable makes you less employable and lowers your future income.
 
2013-07-02 01:34:23 PM

MattStafford: Mercutio74: Not all deficit spending is created equal.  Pretty much every country in the world is a deficit spender, it's how you do it that matters.

Yeah, deficit spending on productive things  (like infrastructure and education)  is good.  Deficit spending on non productive things (like a safety net and the military) is a bad thing.


Well according to the CBO you are wrong.

www.econbrowser.com
Unemployed does better than infrastructure.

For some reason I trust they know more about economics than you do who thinks that sub-sarah Africa and the US have similar economies and thinks that the central bank originates the selling of treasury bonds.
 
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