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(Yahoo)   If you're a vegan mother who isn't producing enough milk to breast feed, you might consider: a) altering your diet b) switching to formula or c) using other mothers' milk. Wait a minute - trick question. Breast milk isn't vegan   (omg.yahoo.com) divider line 441
    More: Interesting, Alicia Silverstone, Mayim Bialik, other mother, parenting styles, Bialik, video sharing, milk, The Big Bang Theory  
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13135 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Jul 2013 at 11:30 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-02 10:11:09 AM  
It's vegan if it's your own being used to feed your child(ren).
 
2013-07-02 10:13:01 AM  
Using another woman's breast milk to feed your baby? This has never been done in the history of ever. We're breaking new ground here, people.
 
2013-07-02 10:17:21 AM  
Is this just for women with children.

How do they feel about adult homemade mozzarella celebrity cheese fetishists?  I'm asking for a friend.
 
2013-07-02 10:21:59 AM  
 Ten months later, she famously posted a video sharing how she straight from her own mouth with food she pre-chewed, a practice known as premastication.

Bird in brain in deed.

I wonder if you can suck on someone else's boobs and then deposit the milk in your kid's mouth?
 
2013-07-02 10:36:15 AM  
Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-02 10:45:34 AM  

Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.


That's how they get their calcium.
 
2013-07-02 11:00:25 AM  
"I care enough about my baby to breastfeed it and seek out extra milk when I can't produce, but not so much that I'll accept any from someone that might have eaten some cheese in the last decade."

Is this to make sure that the kids don't get any veterinary antibiotics or hormones?  Because the proteins and fats in breastmilk are generated from broken-down food nutrients in the mom's body... there isn't any "cow" left in the milk.

I guess this makes it 100% clear that her kids are raised vegan as well.  Hmmm...
 
2013-07-02 11:01:29 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-02 11:04:15 AM  
Perhaps they might realize that being vegan is mainly just being stupid for its own sake, and then go have a bacon cheeseburger...
 
2013-07-02 11:04:53 AM  

factoryconnection: Is this to make sure that the kids don't get any veterinary antibiotics or hormones?  Because the proteins and fats in breastmilk are generated from broken-down food nutrients in the mom's body... there isn't any "cow" left in the milk.


Maybe she believes in contagion magic.
 
2013-07-02 11:27:43 AM  
Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

*facepalm*
 
2013-07-02 11:31:12 AM  

gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

*facepalm*


Scoff all you want, but he's already on his way to being a spokesperson.

i297.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-02 11:32:52 AM  
Aren't cows "someone else's mother"?
 
2013-07-02 11:32:55 AM  

gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

*facepalm*


You're my bear, Blu.
 
2013-07-02 11:33:24 AM  

Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.


Blatent hipocracy.
 
2013-07-02 11:33:29 AM  

Pocket Ninja: Using another woman's breast milk to feed your baby? This has never been done in the history of ever. We're breaking new ground here, people.


Guess people never heard of nursemaids back before formula was invented.
 
2013-07-02 11:34:22 AM  
Now with extra Heppy B.
 
2013-07-02 11:35:00 AM  

WhippingBoy: Aren't cows "someone else's mother"?


Depends.  Are we talking about your mom?
 
2013-07-02 11:35:58 AM  
There was a huge uproar in Phoenix when some mother left her child in daycare and one of the workers, when the kid was being fussy and hard to handle, whipped out her breast and suckled the kid.
 
2013-07-02 11:36:16 AM  
images.encyclopediadramatica.se
 
2013-07-02 11:37:02 AM  
How about starving your Vegan child to death to prove how Vegan you are?
 
2013-07-02 11:37:20 AM  
I sort of understand the concept and the spirit of vegans, but why work around the natural process of breast feeding if you don't HAVE to?  Human bodies evolved over many tens of thousands of years to do something that amazing.  What these vegans are doing is unnatural and potentially harmful.  And really, if you're that much of a disciplined vegan trying to live a certain way, probably the most natural and vegan thing you can do is to just let that little meat-needing sucker die.
 
2013-07-02 11:37:57 AM  
Clueless is a very entertaining, for a documentary.
 
2013-07-02 11:38:08 AM  
If your diet is causing your inability to properly feed your baby... maybe there's another, simpler solution.
 
2013-07-02 11:38:58 AM  

dragonchild: WhippingBoy: Aren't cows "someone else's mother"?

Depends.  Are we talking about your mom?


Aren't we always?
 
2013-07-02 11:39:45 AM  

Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.


Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?
 
2013-07-02 11:40:20 AM  
Wet-nursing is an ancient tradition, and it has generally been considered highly respectable. Then again, it has also generally been considered akin to a professional arrangement, and that doesn't really sound like what she's looking for.
 
2013-07-02 11:40:29 AM  

legion_of_doo: How about starving your Vegan child to death to prove how Vegan you are?


She's getting there.

/your fad diet is fine when it's just you
//when you deny your child nutrition, you're just being an idiot
 
2013-07-02 11:41:22 AM  
One of my cousins is raising her three kids on a life-long vegan diet. The oldest is 12 and he's physically smaller than seven and eight year old kids from other relatives.
 
2013-07-02 11:41:55 AM  

gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu


I have an acquaintance who named her son "Bear". I don't quite get the logic, but whatevs. So far I've resisted the urge to say things like, "Feeling cranky and fussy? Better drink my own piss!"
 
2013-07-02 11:42:04 AM  

borg: It's vegan if it's your own being used to feed your child(ren).


How so?  Milk is obviously an animal product.  This just happens to be milk from a species of large, hairless ape rather than from a cow.
 
2013-07-02 11:42:10 AM  

factoryconnection: "I care enough about my baby to breastfeed it and seek out extra milk when I can't produce, but not so much that I'll accept any from someone that might have eaten some cheese in the last decade."

Is this to make sure that the kids don't get any veterinary antibiotics or hormones?  Because the proteins and fats in breastmilk are generated from broken-down food nutrients in the mom's body... there isn't any "cow" left in the milk.

I guess this makes it 100% clear that her kids are raised vegan as well.  Hmmm...


That is not actually true. For instance, I know of a few kids who had a bovine protein allergy when they were very young (it tends to go away before the kid turns two, often earlier), and their mothers can't eat anything that has a trace of beef or milk as long as they're breastfeeding.
 
2013-07-02 11:42:41 AM  
first, any single woman can have issues breast feeding, but if issues are common in your diet-based community, maybe there's a problem with your diet.

second, if Alicia Silverstone was my mother, I'd breast feed until my mid-20s
 
2013-07-02 11:43:12 AM  
It's vegan if we say it's vegan comma dammit!
 
2013-07-02 11:43:22 AM  

nocturnal001: My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?


There's a Vegan pet movement made up of various animal torturers out there.

/it's okay to torture animals if they are our own pets!
 
2013-07-02 11:44:10 AM  

gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

*facepalm*



encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-07-02 11:44:19 AM  

nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?


Had an acquaintance many moons ago that was a "Raw Foodist"... whatever the fark that is. He had two Dobermans that he fed oranges and avocados and shiat. Asshole. The dogs were always way too skinny and pretty listless.

/We snuck them cans of Alpo or Pedigree at every opportunity.
 
2013-07-02 11:44:27 AM  

Oldiron_79: Pocket Ninja: Using another woman's breast milk to feed your baby? This has never been done in the history of ever. We're breaking new ground here, people.

Guess people never heard of nursemaids back before formula was invented.


Except that Alicia is slapping a new label on a dog and pony show that's probably been around since we started walking upright and calling it "new and improved". I just see it as an amusingly vapid solution to a non problem....wait.....I mean an entirely invented lifestyle.
 
2013-07-02 11:44:30 AM  
Can you imagine how horrible it would be to have a conversation with this woman?
 
2013-07-02 11:44:30 AM  
FTA: The idea, she explained, stemmed from an email she received from a friend and new mom, who said she simply wasn't producing enough milk and couldn't trust that those offering donor milk shared the strict vegan diet.

How would her site screen for those donating milk to be strict vegans?
 
2013-07-02 11:46:35 AM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Had an acquaintance many moons ago that was a "Raw Foodist"... whatever the fark that is.


I usually substitute "dumbfark".
 
2013-07-02 11:46:43 AM  

Pray 4 Mojo: nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?

Had an acquaintance many moons ago that was a "Raw Foodist"... whatever the fark that is. He had two Dobermans that he fed oranges and avocados and shiat. Asshole. The dogs were always way too skinny and pretty listless.

/We snuck them cans of Alpo or Pedigree at every opportunity.


Beef isn't raw food?
 
2013-07-02 11:47:05 AM  

Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.


Yeah.  The issue here is that a vegan diet can lead to reduced breast milk production, so vegan women often  can'tbreastfeed adequately.  This just seems to be an attempt to provide adequate nutrition to babies without the mothers having to compromise their diets.  Seems pretty reasonable (for a PETA nut, anyway).
 
2013-07-02 11:47:06 AM  

likefunbutnot: One of my cousins is raising her three kids on a life-long vegan diet. The oldest is 12 and he's physically smaller than seven and eight year old kids from other relatives.


When he's older he might realize that his short stature, caused by his diet, has radically reduced his opportunities for procreation, and if he gets the chance to sire offspring, won't foist that stupidity upon his heirs.  Or he'll just not breed, and end the line of stupidity his mother begat.
 
2013-07-02 11:47:46 AM  

nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?


When you start taking veganism toward reductio ad absurdum, you get quite a diverse lot of absurdum. Most don't object, but some do, and they handle their objections in a variety of ways, some of which don't even get CPS called on them. Same goes for pets and the SPCA.
 
2013-07-02 11:47:51 AM  

mcmnky: first, any single woman can have issues breast feeding, but if issues are common in your diet-based community, maybe there's a problem with your diet.

second, if Alicia Silverstone was my mother, I'd breast feed until my mid-20s


Would you also be doing her from behind on weekends and holidays too?
 
2013-07-02 11:48:05 AM  
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-07-02 11:48:07 AM  
MagicBoris:

That is not actually true. For instance, I know of a few kids who had a bovine protein allergy when they were very young (it tends to go away before the kid turns two, often earlier), and their mothers can't eat anything that has a trace of beef or milk as long as they're breastfeeding.

This - but you still have to admit it is a small percentage, and in that case it's very important that the mother pays strict attention to her diet.  In the vegan case, sadly, the mother is withholding important nutrition from their children for the sake of a made up principle - on a smaller scale but not unlike belonging to a religion that won't allow you to take a sick child to a doctor for a fatal but treatable disease.
 
2013-07-02 11:48:27 AM  
encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
Sorry I prefer my Breast milk strait from the tap.
 
2013-07-02 11:49:21 AM  

theorellior: gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

I have an acquaintance who named her son "Bear". I don't quite get the logic, but whatevs. So far I've resisted the urge to say things like, "Feeling cranky and fussy? Better drink my own piss!"


The name "Bear" is fine and dandy in the ghey community.  Let's hope the kid doesn't turn out to be a twink, though, or it could get confusing.
 
2013-07-02 11:50:01 AM  
Didn't she have a mastectomy or am I thinking of someone else?
 
2013-07-02 11:50:02 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: MagicBoris:

That is not actually true. For instance, I know of a few kids who had a bovine protein allergy when they were very young (it tends to go away before the kid turns two, often earlier), and their mothers can't eat anything that has a trace of beef or milk as long as they're breastfeeding.

This - but you still have to admit it is a small percentage, and in that case it's very important that the mother pays strict attention to her diet.  In the vegan case, sadly, the mother is withholding important nutrition from their children for the sake of a made up principle - on a smaller scale but not unlike belonging to a religion that won't allow you to take a sick child to a doctor for a fatal but treatable disease.


THIS, bolded for emphasis.  What you're doing is harming your child's health, for your own self reasons.
 
2013-07-02 11:50:13 AM  

Pray 4 Mojo: If your diet is causing your inability to properly feed your baby... maybe there's another, simpler solution.


Came here to say this.

It would be like me trying to find a cure for scurvy that didn't involve vitamin C.
 
2013-07-02 11:50:24 AM  

gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

*facepalm*


Bears, "blu" or not, are hardly vegans.

Cognitive dissonance, biatch, do you perceive it?
 
2013-07-02 11:50:30 AM  

jshine: borg: It's vegan if it's your own being used to feed your child(ren).

How so?  Milk is obviously an animal product.  This just happens to be milk from a species of large, hairless ape rather than from a cow.


Vegan wymin aren't particularly known for being "hairless".
 
2013-07-02 11:50:40 AM  

Lexx: Nana's Vibrator: MagicBoris:

That is not actually true. For instance, I know of a few kids who had a bovine protein allergy when they were very young (it tends to go away before the kid turns two, often earlier), and their mothers can't eat anything that has a trace of beef or milk as long as they're breastfeeding.

This - but you still have to admit it is a small percentage, and in that case it's very important that the mother pays strict attention to her diet.  In the vegan case, sadly, the mother is withholding important nutrition from their children for the sake of a made up principle - on a smaller scale but not unlike belonging to a religion that won't allow you to take a sick child to a doctor for a fatal but treatable disease.

THIS, bolded for emphasis.  What you're doing is harming your child's health, for your own selfish reasons.


typo!
 
2013-07-02 11:51:31 AM  

abhorrent1: Didn't she have a mastectomy or am I thinking of someone else?


Christina Applegate.
 
2013-07-02 11:52:01 AM  

likefunbutnot: One of my cousins is raising her three kids on a life-long vegan diet. The oldest is 12 and he's physically smaller than seven and eight year old kids from other relatives.


Might as well ship him back to Africa, because that's where his body type thrives in the form of 110-pound Ethiopian distance runners.
 
2013-07-02 11:52:09 AM  
My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I could not fathom what kind of garbage these docs have to go through with crunchy granola parents who want to do "natural" things with their kid.  UGH.
 
2013-07-02 11:53:04 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Can you imagine how horrible it would be to have a conversation with this woman?


I would be too busy eating a bacon double cheeseburger to listen, anyways
 
2013-07-02 11:53:20 AM  

YixilTesiphon: Pray 4 Mojo: nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

Had an acquaintance many moons ago that was a "Raw Foodist"... whatever the fark that is. He had two Dobermans that he fed oranges and avocados and shiat. Asshole. The dogs were always way too skinny and pretty listless.

/We snuck them cans of Alpo or Pedigree at every opportunity.

Beef isn't raw food?


Raw beef is raw food, but it doesn't play well with the human digestive and immune systems. Trying to apply that to dogs is just plain psychotic, though: canines are well-adapted for eating raw meat.
 
2013-07-02 11:53:24 AM  

LordBeavis: theorellior: gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

I have an acquaintance who named her son "Bear". I don't quite get the logic, but whatevs. So far I've resisted the urge to say things like, "Feeling cranky and fussy? Better drink my own piss!"

The name "Bear" is fine and dandy in the ghey community.  Let's hope the kid doesn't turn out to be a twink, though, or it could get confusing.


A.W.
/Gave my kids names AND instructions: "You don't like your name? That's the worst thing I've ever done to you? Well, first of all, that makes me the greatest mother the planet has ever known. Second, the minute you turn 18 you can change it, so go ahead. It's just a name"
 
2013-07-02 11:54:11 AM  

PsyLord: FTA: The idea, she explained, stemmed from an email she received from a friend and new mom, who said she simply wasn't producing enough milk and couldn't trust that those offering donor milk shared the strict vegan diet.

How would her site screen for those donating milk to be strict vegans?


Maybe she checks the "Ex-vegan Traitors" website to see if they've been excommunicated.
 
2013-07-02 11:54:27 AM  
Isn't all milk "breast milk"?
 
2013-07-02 11:54:42 AM  
Praise the vegans for leaving more real food for real people.


madmikesamerica.com

www.bbq-pirates-va.com
 
2013-07-02 11:54:58 AM  
The donor milk is almost certainly not from a strict vegan. We've already established they can't produce enough even for their own young.
Face it, you are a broken specimen due to your own decisions.
 
2013-07-02 11:54:58 AM  
f1.pepst.com
When you say I can't have a hamburger, what do you really mean?
www.naderlibrary.com

/people always have to be difficult
//kids are starving right now
 
2013-07-02 11:55:09 AM  

fanbladesaresharp: Oldiron_79: Pocket Ninja: Using another woman's breast milk to feed your baby? This has never been done in the history of ever. We're breaking new ground here, people.

Guess people never heard of nursemaids back before formula was invented.

Except that Alicia is slapping a new label on a dog and pony show that's probably been around since we started walking upright and calling it "new and improved". I just see it as an amusingly vapid solution to a non problem....wait.....I mean an entirely invented lifestyle.


It'll be interesting to see the first disease vector lawsuit.

nocturnal001: My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?


One of my favorite gags on Futurama was the Vegan Lion.
 
2013-07-02 11:55:09 AM  

legion_of_doo: abhorrent1: Didn't she have a mastectomy or am I thinking of someone else?

Christina Applegate.


Ah that's the one.
 
2013-07-02 11:55:55 AM  

MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I could not fathom what kind of garbage these docs have to go through with crunchy granola parents who want to do "natural" things with their kid.  UGH.


You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

Pediatrics can be a hard specialty as it is, but I could not imagine being a doc here in the Bay Area. It's like nutter central, and so many think they're better/smarter than you.

It's a blessing when you find normal parents.
 
2013-07-02 11:56:26 AM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Isn't all milk "breast milk"?


Udderly preposterous!

/I don't know
 
2013-07-02 11:57:12 AM  

Pray 4 Mojo: nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?

Had an acquaintance many moons ago that was a "Raw Foodist"... whatever the fark that is. He had two Dobermans that he fed oranges and avocados and shiat. Asshole. The dogs were always way too skinny and pretty listless.

/We snuck them cans of Alpo or Pedigree at every opportunity.


Wow, I was thinking of switching my cat over to raw food for the nutrition, but something more along the lines of meats, not the ingredients for my salad.
 
2013-07-02 11:57:18 AM  

Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.


Breasts have nothing to do with hips
 
2013-07-02 11:58:10 AM  
Being vegan is so natural and healthy it interferes with your body's natural healthy processes.

Also...

"Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style"

I see my SOP regarding religious zealots applies here. As soon as they mention their religion just turn and walk away.
 
2013-07-02 11:58:16 AM  

MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.


I do not agree with this sentiment at all.  Doctors and hospitals have their own agendas that may not coincide with the patient's needs.  For instance, did you try to have a natural (drug-free) birth?

We have a 1 year old, and every couple in our Bradley class that delivered in a hospital did not get the desired drug-free birth.  Zero for nine.

We had a home birth to avoid that.
 
2013-07-02 11:58:34 AM  

legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.


We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.

Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.
 
2013-07-02 11:58:47 AM  
nocturnal001:
My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?

I knew some college kids that tried to raise a vegan cat.  Yeah, it died before we could convince them that cats are CARNIVORES.
 
2013-07-02 11:59:34 AM  
www.aceshowbiz.com

Breast milk's not vegan?
 
2013-07-02 11:59:50 AM  

CatfoodSpork: nocturnal001:
My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?

I knew some college kids that tried to raise a vegan cat.  Yeah, it died before we could convince them that cats are CARNIVORES.


Ugh. That's basically immurement.
 
2013-07-02 11:59:52 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Wow, I was thinking of switching my cat over to raw food for the nutrition, but something more along the lines of meats, not the ingredients for my salad.


If you feed your cats raw meat, make sure you include taurine, vitamin E, and B vitamins supplements. Most muscle meat doesn't have enough of those in it to give them full nutrition.
 
2013-07-02 12:00:01 PM  

mama2tnt: LordBeavis: theorellior: gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

I have an acquaintance who named her son "Bear". I don't quite get the logic, but whatevs. So far I've resisted the urge to say things like, "Feeling cranky and fussy? Better drink my own piss!"

The name "Bear" is fine and dandy in the ghey community.  Let's hope the kid doesn't turn out to be a twink, though, or it could get confusing.

A.W.
/Gave my kids names AND instructions: "You don't like your name? That's the worst thing I've ever done to you? Well, first of all, that makes me the greatest mother the planet has ever known. Second, the minute you turn 18 you can change it, so go ahead. It's just a name"


In many places you can change your name before you turn 18, though the rules are someone different and I think parental approval is required.  The rules vary from state to state within the USA, and I have no idea how it works outside the USA.  But assuming your child expresses a real desire to change her name before she turns 18, you might want to look into it.
 
2013-07-02 12:00:05 PM  

Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.


way to stick to your convictions.
 
2013-07-02 12:00:28 PM  

YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.

Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.


Can't you not attend school without immunization records? Isn't that part of the enrollment process?
 
2013-07-02 12:00:45 PM  

stuffy: [encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com image 190x265]
Sorry I prefer my Breast milk strait from the tap.


Holy shiat!  Who is she and where can I get more?!
 
2013-07-02 12:00:52 PM  
This chick is clueless.
 
2013-07-02 12:01:45 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Isn't all milk "breast milk"?


No.  Cows don't have breasts, therefore milk from cows cannot be breast milk.  Only primates have breasts.
 
2013-07-02 12:01:46 PM  
Any time an article mentions Miam Bialik's parenting it should also mention that her marriage collapsed. There is no reason why you should have a 4yr old in bed every night nursing when you have a perfectly fine husband willing to do the same.
 
2013-07-02 12:02:01 PM  
I have no interest in how an adult chooses to live and eat for themselves, but if your lifestyle prohibits you from providing your child with sufficient nourishment, that is nature's way of telling you that you are unfit as a parent.
 
2013-07-02 12:02:41 PM  

jshine: borg: It's vegan if it's your own being used to feed your child(ren).

How so?  Milk is obviously an animal product.  This just happens to be milk from a species of large, hairless ape rather than from a cow.


Could be a cow. Send photo for analysis. I'm sure there are plenty here who could, and would offer their unbiased opinion.
 
2013-07-02 12:02:52 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.

Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.

Can't you not attend school without immunization records? Isn't that part of the enrollment process?


My understanding is that schools aren't very good about enforcing that. (No idea, this will be my first.) My concern is that some dumbass's baby will get a disease from their older sibling while my baby hasn't been vaccinated yet (since they can't handle all vaccinations immediately), and then the daycare will get infected.
 
2013-07-02 12:02:56 PM  
I'm fine with this except...

If you aren't able to produce enough milk to breast feed your kids, maybe being vegan isn't all that "natural" or "healthy"? Think about it for awhile, people.
 
2013-07-02 12:03:29 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.

Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.

Can't you not attend school without immunization records? Isn't that part of the enrollment process?


Usually. But very few states stick to it completely (with the exception of medical exemptions). Most states, unfortunately, cave to the nutters with their religious and Jenny McCarthy objections.
 
2013-07-02 12:03:53 PM  

YixilTesiphon: Had an acquaintance many moons ago that was a "Raw Foodist"... whatever the fark that is. He had two Dobermans that he fed oranges and avocados and shiat. Asshole. The dogs were always way too skinny and pretty listless.

/We snuck them cans of Alpo or Pedigree at every opportunity.

Beef isn't raw food?


Don't ask me... I mean... yes... I know raw beef is raw food... but that's not what this dumbfark fed his dogs. I don't know the rules of "Raw Foodism"... and frankly... I don't care to learn.
 
2013-07-02 12:03:55 PM  

PsyLord: FTA: The idea, she explained, stemmed from an email she received from a friend and new mom, who said she simply wasn't producing enough milk and couldn't trust that those offering donor milk shared the strict vegan diet.

How would her site screen for those donating milk to be strict vegans?


1."Does your breath smell like cum and chicory?"
Y/N
2. "Do you swear, cross your heart and hope to die, eat a big burrito pie, that you don't eat animal products?"
 
2013-07-02 12:04:11 PM  
Affluent, First World, Post-industrial, Too-Much-Time-On-Their-Hands People problem.
 
2013-07-02 12:04:19 PM  

Mrbogey: The My Little Pony Killer: Wow, I was thinking of switching my cat over to raw food for the nutrition, but something more along the lines of meats, not the ingredients for my salad.

If you feed your cats raw meat, make sure you include taurine, vitamin E, and B vitamins supplements. Most muscle meat doesn't have enough of those in it to give them full nutrition.


You bet your butt I'll be working closely with her vet and with people who have successfully raised animals on that diet if I do take her that route.
 
2013-07-02 12:04:58 PM  

tuna fingers: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I do not agree with this sentiment at all.  Doctors and hospitals have their own agendas that may not coincide with the patient's needs.  For instance, did you try to have a natural (drug-free) birth?

We have a 1 year old, and every couple in our Bradley class that delivered in a hospital did not get the desired drug-free birth.  Zero for nine.

We had a home birth to avoid that.


You know what? We were all ra ra drug free, and then the first labor was HARD. Hard on he baby, hard on my wife, to the point where it was about to go c-section because both were exhausted. When you can see it on the fetal heart monitor due to the complications, it kind of matters to you.

The drugs helped a shiat ton at that point.

Yeah, it would be nice if the babby didn't get drugged out too, but modern medicine is a good thing.

I'm not saying everyone should be 100% pro-drug for delivery, but people also shouldn't rule it out. There's a reason why fewer mothers & children die during childbirth today than in years gone by.

/second child was so fast, he came out before the drug question even came up
 
2013-07-02 12:05:27 PM  

theorellior: gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

I have an acquaintance who named her son "Bear". I don't quite get the logic, but whatevs. So far I've resisted the urge to say things like, "Feeling cranky and fussy? Better drink my own piss!"


Reminds me of a punchline for a joke.  I forget the full flow of the joke narrative but it essentially had to do with Indian women competing to have the strongest son with the chief by conceiving on rugs made of animal hides.  Bear was the best because, "The son of the squa on the one hide is equal to the sons of the squas on the other two hides."
 
2013-07-02 12:06:11 PM  

Mikey1969: I'm fine with this except...

If you aren't able to produce enough milk to breast feed your kids, maybe being vegan isn't all that "natural" or "healthy"? Think about it for awhile, people.


Even many non-vegan mothers have milk-production issues, so it's not alway diet. But if your lifestyle leaves you unable to supplement low milk supply with formula, then you are making poor choices for your child.
 
2013-07-02 12:06:33 PM  

MagicBoris: factoryconnection: "I care enough about my baby to breastfeed it and seek out extra milk when I can't produce, but not so much that I'll accept any from someone that might have eaten some cheese in the last decade."

Is this to make sure that the kids don't get any veterinary antibiotics or hormones?  Because the proteins and fats in breastmilk are generated from broken-down food nutrients in the mom's body... there isn't any "cow" left in the milk.

I guess this makes it 100% clear that her kids are raised vegan as well.  Hmmm...

That is not actually true. For instance, I know of a few kids who had a bovine protein allergy when they were very young (it tends to go away before the kid turns two, often earlier), and their mothers can't eat anything that has a trace of beef or milk as long as they're breastfeeding.


My son had a dairy milk allergy.  While she was breastfeeding she had to avoid any cow milk. Goat milk and beef meat was fine.

The FA is still odd though.  Many women do not make enough breastmilk, you just supplement with formula. No need to get other titties involved.
 
2013-07-02 12:06:51 PM  

legion_of_doo: tuna fingers: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I do not agree with this sentiment at all.  Doctors and hospitals have their own agendas that may not coincide with the patient's needs.  For instance, did you try to have a natural (drug-free) birth?

We have a 1 year old, and every couple in our Bradley class that delivered in a hospital did not get the desired drug-free birth.  Zero for nine.

We had a home birth to avoid that.

You know what? We were all ra ra drug free, and then the first labor was HARD. Hard on he baby, hard on my wife, to the point where it was about to go c-section because both were exhausted. When you can see it on the fetal heart monitor due to the complications, it kind of matters to you.

The drugs helped a shiat ton at that point.

Yeah, it would be nice if the babby didn't get drugged out too, but modern medicine is a good thing.

I'm not saying everyone should be 100% pro-drug for delivery, but people also shouldn't rule it out. There's a reason why fewer mothers & children die during childbirth today than in years gone by.

/second child was so fast, he came out before the drug question even came up


My sister is a pediatrician and had epidurals, so that's a pretty good endorsement in my opinion. (IANAD)
 
2013-07-02 12:08:26 PM  
What farking loon.  And pretty much what most of society thinks of vegans.
 
2013-07-02 12:08:47 PM  

gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

*facepalm*


Does he live in a Big House?
 
2013-07-02 12:09:09 PM  

YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: tuna fingers: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I do not agree with this sentiment at all.  Doctors and hospitals have their own agendas that may not coincide with the patient's needs.  For instance, did you try to have a natural (drug-free) birth?

We have a 1 year old, and every couple in our Bradley class that delivered in a hospital did not get the desired drug-free birth.  Zero for nine.

We had a home birth to avoid that.

You know what? We were all ra ra drug free, and then the first labor was HARD. Hard on he baby, hard on my wife, to the point where it was about to go c-section because both were exhausted. When you can see it on the fetal heart monitor due to the complications, it kind of matters to you.

The drugs helped a shiat ton at that point.

Yeah, it would be nice if the babby didn't get drugged out too, but modern medicine is a good thing.

I'm not saying everyone should be 100% pro-drug for delivery, but people also shouldn't rule it out. There's a reason why fewer mothers & children die during childbirth today than in years gone by.

/second child was so fast, he came out before the drug question even came up

My sister is a pediatrician and had epidurals, so that's a pretty good endorsement in my opinion. (IANAD)


My wife is a radiologist and had epidurals for all three of our kids. Our third was a couple of weeks early and she made me drive like Mario Andretti I the hospital so we didn't get there too late for her to start an epidural.
 
2013-07-02 12:10:43 PM  

Dimensio: [www.aceshowbiz.com image 425x230]

Breast milk's not vegan?


He was tapping this
3.bp.blogspot.com

and this too
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-07-02 12:10:49 PM  

Nabb1: Mikey1969: I'm fine with this except...

If you aren't able to produce enough milk to breast feed your kids, maybe being vegan isn't all that "natural" or "healthy"? Think about it for awhile, people.

Even many non-vegan mothers have milk-production issues, so it's not alway diet. But if your lifestyle leaves you unable to supplement low milk supply with formula, then you are making poor choices for your child.


If they're fine with consuming fluids produced by other humans then I have an excellent idea on how these vegan women can supplement their own diet with human produced protein fluid. They'll have no problems finding tens of thousands of donors.
 
2013-07-02 12:10:51 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Mrbogey: The My Little Pony Killer: Wow, I was thinking of switching my cat over to raw food for the nutrition, but something more along the lines of meats, not the ingredients for my salad.

If you feed your cats raw meat, make sure you include taurine, vitamin E, and B vitamins supplements. Most muscle meat doesn't have enough of those in it to give them full nutrition.

You bet your butt I'll be working closely with her vet and with people who have successfully raised animals on that diet if I do take her that route.


A cat's natural diet involves chomping down the entire small critter. Consuming livers and bones are important to their health. Growing up on a farm, you frequently encountered mouse remains consistenting of nothing but heads and gall bladders. In the old days in England, many folks bought whole kippers and plopped them down for cats to feast upon.
 
2013-07-02 12:11:44 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.
Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.

Can't you not attend school without immunization records? Isn't that part of the enrollment process?


You can get exemptions in California. I think that applies to both public & private schools now... farking asshole helicopter conspiracy nutters.

/yay, junk science!
/looks like Pennsylvania also has religious/ethical exemptions from vaccination
 
2013-07-02 12:12:07 PM  

Mrbogey: The My Little Pony Killer: Wow, I was thinking of switching my cat over to raw food for the nutrition, but something more along the lines of meats, not the ingredients for my salad.

If you feed your cats raw meat, make sure you include taurine, vitamin E, and B vitamins supplements. Most muscle meat doesn't have enough of those in it to give them full nutrition.


So, ground beef and Red Bull?  Sweet, I was already making that anyway...
 
2013-07-02 12:12:42 PM  

legion_of_doo: tuna fingers: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I do not agree with this sentiment at all.  Doctors and hospitals have their own agendas that may not coincide with the patient's needs.  For instance, did you try to have a natural (drug-free) birth?

We have a 1 year old, and every couple in our Bradley class that delivered in a hospital did not get the desired drug-free birth.  Zero for nine.

We had a home birth to avoid that.

You know what? We were all ra ra drug free, and then the first labor was HARD. Hard on he baby, hard on my wife, to the point where it was about to go c-section because both were exhausted. When you can see it on the fetal heart monitor due to the complications, it kind of matters to you.

The drugs helped a shiat ton at that point.

Yeah, it would be nice if the babby didn't get drugged out too, but modern medicine is a good thing.

I'm not saying everyone should be 100% pro-drug for delivery, but people also shouldn't rule it out. There's a reason why fewer mothers & children die during childbirth today than in years gone by.

/second child was so fast, he came out before the drug question even came up


Here's a factoid for you.  The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies.  Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_r at e
 
2013-07-02 12:13:30 PM  

legion_of_doo: the money is in the banana stand: YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.
Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.

Can't you not attend school without immunization records? Isn't that part of the enrollment process?

You can get exemptions in California. I think that applies to both public & private schools now... farking asshole helicopter conspiracy nutters.

/yay, junk science!
/looks like Pennsylvania also has religious/ethical exemptions from vaccination


Wow, there should be no exemptions.
 
2013-07-02 12:14:38 PM  
Silverstone isn't the only celebrity to make headlines for her interesting parenting methods. "The Big Bang Theory" star Mayim Bialik

N-n-n-n-no. "Blossom star", or simply "Blossom".
 
2013-07-02 12:14:48 PM  

tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.


Read the caveat:

Note that due to differences in reporting, these numbers may not be comparable across countries; while the WHO recommendation is that all children who show signs of life should be recorded as live births, in many countries this standard is not followed, artificially lowering their infant mortality rates relative to countries which follow those standards.
 
2013-07-02 12:15:13 PM  
There have been breast milk banks for a long time now. Some medically fragile babies can not tolerate formula, and must drink breast milk. If Mom can't produce enough, they're screwed.

The only difference here is the whole vegan thing. And the fact that (I'm not 100% sure on this one, but I believe) babies who can drink formula but whose parents choose not to feed it to them would not have access to the limited supply of donated breast milk in the established breast milk bank. Although I'm sure there are women who will sell their milk to whomever will pay.
 
2013-07-02 12:15:18 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: legion_of_doo: the money is in the banana stand: YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.
Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.

Can't you not attend school without immunization records? Isn't that part of the enrollment process?

You can get exemptions in California. I think that applies to both public & private schools now... farking asshole helicopter conspiracy nutters.

/yay, junk science!
/looks like Pennsylvania also has religious/ethical exemptions from vaccination

Wow, there should be no exemptions.


Well, if the Amish want to stay on their farms and fark around in their carriages, whatever, but the public schools shouldn't allow unvaccinated children.
 
2013-07-02 12:15:24 PM  

Luse: The donor milk is almost certainly not from a strict vegan. We've already established they can't produce enough even for their own young.
Face it, you are a broken specimen due to your own decisions.


a la the Shakers.
 
2013-07-02 12:15:35 PM  
If you're not producing enough breast milk, then there's something wrong with your diet.  If anything, this is an argument not to go vegan.
 
2013-07-02 12:15:41 PM  

nocturnal001: My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?


I have a vegan friend who feeds her animals, I shiat you not, rotisserie chicken.  I should give her props for recognizing that dogs and cats are carnivores and require a meat diet, but damn.
 
2013-07-02 12:16:14 PM  

Oldiron_79: Pocket Ninja: Using another woman's breast milk to feed your baby? This has never been done in the history of ever. We're breaking new ground here, people.

Guess people never heard of nursemaids back before formula was invented.


True, but typically these were women whose primary job was to feed babies and whom the parents usually met and saw on a regular basis.  Having some random person send body fluids in the mail  to give to an infant seems questionable at best.
 
2013-07-02 12:16:31 PM  

Millennium: YixilTesiphon: Pray 4 Mojo: nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

Had an acquaintance many moons ago that was a "Raw Foodist"... whatever the fark that is. He had two Dobermans that he fed oranges and avocados and shiat. Asshole. The dogs were always way too skinny and pretty listless.

/We snuck them cans of Alpo or Pedigree at every opportunity.

Beef isn't raw food?

Raw beef is raw food, but it doesn't play well with the human digestive and immune systems. Trying to apply that to dogs is just plain psychotic, though: canines are well-adapted for eating raw meat.


If that guy's dogs were anything like any of the dogs I've owned, if they got just a little piece of avocado it made them into a poop geyser for the next 12-24 hours. Maybe dobermans do better with that than my various mutts have, or that might explain why the dogs looked listless all the time.
 
2013-07-02 12:18:35 PM  

tuna fingers: legion_of_doo:
You know what? We were all ra ra drug free, and then the first labor was HARD. Hard on he baby, hard on my wife, to the point where it was about to go c-section because both were exhausted. When you can see it on the fetal heart monitor due to the complications, it kind of matters to you.
The drugs helped a shiat ton at that point.
Yeah, it would be nice if the babby didn't get drugged out too, but modern medicine is a good thing.
I'm not saying everyone should be 100% pro-drug for delivery, but people also shouldn't rule it out. There's a reason why fewer mothers & children die during childbirth today than in years gone by.
/second child was so fast, he came out before the drug question even came up

Here's a factoid for you.  The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies.  Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_r at e


We're also more liberal in the definition of a live birth compared to other countries.

I'm not saying our system is perfect, but the infant mortality stats are known to be skewed due to differences in measurement.

/IMO I think it's more of a moral choice to say natural birth is better rather than scientific.
 
2013-07-02 12:18:46 PM  

Mrbogey: tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

Read the caveat:

Note that due to differences in reporting, these numbers may not be comparable across countries; while the WHO recommendation is that all children who show signs of life should be recorded as live births, in many countries this standard is not followed, artificially lowering their infant mortality rates relative to countries which follow those standards.


We also have much better prenatal care. So pregnancies which might otherwise end in miscarriage can be carried to or nearly to term, to be ultimately unsuccessful.
 
2013-07-02 12:19:16 PM  
If your life-style is damaging your health and/or that of your children, it might be time to re-evaluate your life-choices.
 
2013-07-02 12:20:15 PM  

ciberido: mama2tnt: LordBeavis: theorellior: gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

I have an acquaintance who named her son "Bear". I don't quite get the logic, but whatevs. So far I've resisted the urge to say things like, "Feeling cranky and fussy? Better drink my own piss!"

The name "Bear" is fine and dandy in the ghey community.  Let's hope the kid doesn't turn out to be a twink, though, or it could get confusing.

A.W.
/Gave my kids names AND instructions: "You don't like your name? That's the worst thing I've ever done to you? Well, first of all, that makes me the greatest mother the planet has ever known. Second, the minute you turn 18 you can change it, so go ahead. It's just a name"

In many places you can change your name before you turn 18, though the rules are someone different and I think parental approval is required.  The rules vary from state to state within the USA, and I have no idea how it works outside the USA.  But assuming your child expresses a real desire to change her name before she turns 18, you might want to look into it.


Should've added, "So far the monsters LOVE their names and I've had to dissuade only one of them from changing - but it's only because he wanted to add an exclamation point, and I feared that since every person entering data into computers enters it differently, his records from school, doctor's offices, etc. would be hard to find."

/And I still feel Silverstone is an attention whore. It seems that whenever the spotlight turns away from a former star, they kill themselves - and/or their children and/or their spouses and/or their landladies - to get it turned back onto them.
 
2013-07-02 12:20:35 PM  
Am I reading this right:  They're vegan because that's supposedly what we are supposed to be by nature or whatever but in being vegan they can't produce enough milk to keep their babies alive?
 
2013-07-02 12:20:52 PM  

Mrbogey: tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

Read the caveat:

Note that due to differences in reporting, these numbers may not be comparable across countries; while the WHO recommendation is that all children who show signs of life should be recorded as live births, in many countries this standard is not followed, artificially lowering their infant mortality rates relative to countries which follow those standards.


Fair enough.  Let's dope them all.
 
2013-07-02 12:21:03 PM  

tuna fingers: legion_of_doo: tuna fingers: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I do not agree with this sentiment at all.  Doctors and hospitals have their own agendas that may not coincide with the patient's needs.  For instance, did you try to have a natural (drug-free) birth?

We have a 1 year old, and every couple in our Bradley class that delivered in a hospital did not get the desired drug-free birth.  Zero for nine.

We had a home birth to avoid that.

You know what? We were all ra ra drug free, and then the first labor was HARD. Hard on he baby, hard on my wife, to the point where it was about to go c-section because both were exhausted. When you can see it on the fetal heart monitor due to the complications, it kind of matters to you.

The drugs helped a shiat ton at that point.

Yeah, it would be nice if the babby didn't get drugged out too, but modern medicine is a good thing.

I'm not saying everyone should be 100% pro-drug for delivery, but people also shouldn't rule it out. There's a reason why fewer mothers & children die during childbirth today than in years gone by.

/second child was so fast, he came out before the drug question even came up

Here's a factoid for you.  The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies.  Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_r at e


How many children born at 24 weeks survive in Cuba?
 
2013-07-02 12:21:13 PM  
Ah, so it's only a matter of time before these vegan moms try and force schools to ban meat, cheese, most bread, etc. since their kids are now allergic to anything that isn't a vitamin shot.
 
2013-07-02 12:22:51 PM  
cdn.hark.com
Greg : "Oh, you can milk just about anything with nipples."


Jack : Oh?....I have nipples, Greg, ... can you milk me?
 
2013-07-02 12:23:26 PM  

tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.


Our hospitals are exceedingly poor at supporting women in labor without resorting to drugs.  They push the "lie on the bed on your back" position, the MOST PAINFUL position possible and least supportive for the baby coming out.  They impose artificial time tables.  They create nightmare-scenario warnings about "baby is too big based on the ultrasound" that has a quite-large error band.  They're slaves to due dates, even though they're educated guesses.  They impose needless restrictions on food and drink, so that the mother becomes completely exhausted just due to the tiny chance that she's rushed into surgery, while unconscious, and vomits but noone in the surgical suite notices and she aspirates.  They share nothing about body positioning or sacral pressure to relieve back labor, to adjust baby's position, or to help labor progress.  None of this is hippy-dippy, spirit-crystal nonsense... it mostly comes down to biomechanics.

They do push pitocin, which raises the need for an epidural, which raises the need for surgery.  That's what they do, because their specialties are crisis management, and unfortunately they end up creating crises.  We pay a lot more for all these interventions and they do provide worse outcomes.
 
2013-07-02 12:24:08 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: If your diet is causing your inability to properly feed your baby... maybe there's another, simpler solution.


Ditch the baby
 
2013-07-02 12:24:24 PM  

tuna fingers: Cuba does a better job with delivering babies.



Cuba's patients/doctor ratio is about the lowest in the world.
 
2013-07-02 12:25:05 PM  

nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?


Yes. At least one of them became a fark headline.
 
2013-07-02 12:25:22 PM  

Luse: The donor milk is almost certainly not from a strict vegan. We've already established they can't produce enough even for their own young.
Face it, you are a broken specimen due to your own decisions.


How do I know that you didn't RTFA?  That they want vegan donor milk is the point, actually.  Some mothers have problems producing enough milk for whatever reason.  It might happen for reasons that have nothing to do with diet-- it happens to omnivorous mothers as well.  There already exist milk exchanges for donor milk, and as noted, it is also possible to supplement with formula.

The issue here is that if you are a vegan mother who happens to have an inadequate milk supply, you (apparently) might not want donor milk from a non-vegan who happens to have extra.  This project is to help vegan mothers who have an overabundance of milk connect with vegan mothers who don't.  It's kind of a non-story, really, unless you happen to be vegan and have an infant child.

Personally, I don't understand a diet that doesn't allow for tasty bacon, but to each his own.
 
2013-07-02 12:26:04 PM  

tuna fingers: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I do not agree with this sentiment at all.  Doctors and hospitals have their own agendas that may not coincide with the patient's needs.  For instance, did you try to have a natural (drug-free) birth?

We have a 1 year old, and every couple in our Bradley class that delivered in a hospital did not get the desired drug-free birth.  Zero for nine.

We had a home birth to avoid that.


I disagree with the sentiment based on the fact I can't always just bow to doctor authority and assume they will know more than me because they may not. They will be largely knowledgeable in their area of specialisation but usually not outside it. More issues with incorrect or incomplete information will be found with GPs.

I ended up in the er with a migraine a few weeks before I was due and the ob/gyn there tried to tell me it couldn't possibly be a migraine and it must be something else. The neurologist, on the other hand, agreed it was classic migraine and I was correct in what could have triggered it. He was surprised the ob/gyn was saying otherwise.
 
2013-07-02 12:26:09 PM  

mama2tnt: Should've added, "So far the monsters LOVE their names and I've had to dissuade only one of them from changing - but it's only because he wanted to add an exclamation point, and I feared that since every person entering data into computers enters it differently, his records from school, doctor's offices, etc. would be hard to find."


Yep. I have a bunch of middle names, and I have a different name in almost every government database. So when I got a job where they required E-Verify, I had to show up with my birth certificate, selective service card, driver's license, social security card, AND passport.

/not looking forward to universal E-Verify
//dicks
 
2013-07-02 12:26:19 PM  

YixilTesiphon: the money is in the banana stand: legion_of_doo: the money is in the banana stand: YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.
Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.

Can't you not attend school without immunization records? Isn't that part of the enrollment process?

You can get exemptions in California. I think that applies to both public & private schools now... farking asshole helicopter conspiracy nutters.
/yay, junk science!
/looks like Pennsylvania also has religious/ethical exemptions from vaccination

Wow, there should be no exemptions.

Well, if the Amish want to stay on their farms and fark around in their carriages, whatever, but the public schools shouldn't allow unvaccinated children.


Yeah, that's one of those things where religious & non-religious nutters must have equality in terms of the law.

/I don't know why the new California law forces private schools to deal with the same vac exemption nutters. The old law was public school only, as I recall That kind of pisses me off. farking government overreach. Must be farking Marin county again.
 
2013-07-02 12:27:24 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: legion_of_doo: the money is in the banana stand: YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.
Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.

Can't you not attend school without immunization records? Isn't that part of the enrollment process?

You can get exemptions in California. I think that applies to both public & private schools now... farking asshole helicopter conspiracy nutters.

/yay, junk science!
/looks like Pennsylvania also has religious/ethical exemptions from vaccination

Wow, there should be no exemptions.


The exemptions aren't supposed to be for conspiracy nutters. The exemptions are supposed to be for kids who had a bad reaction to one or two courses of vaccines but got all the rest, or for the relatively small number of folks who object for religious reasons. Those are fair enough reasons to get an exception: it's not the kid's fault he had a bad reaction to one vaccine, and church/state issues aside, there aren't enough of the religious objectors to do any real harm.

The conspiracy nutters have managed to abuse the system to the point where it's starting to affect the disease statistics, and that's a real problem. But getting rid of exceptions entirely is going to throw a lot of babies out with the bathwater: enough, perhaps, to prevent that path from being viable at all.

/had a bad reaction to one vaccine. Still got all the rest.
//glad there's an exception process.
 
2013-07-02 12:27:52 PM  

factoryconnection: tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

Our hospitals are exceedingly poor at supporting women in labor without resorting to drugs.  They push the "lie on the bed on your back" position, the MOST PAINFUL position possible and least supportive for the baby coming out.  They impose artificial time tables.  They create nightmare-scenario warnings about "baby is too big based on the ultrasound" that has a quite-large error band.  They're slaves to due dates, even though they're educated guesses.  They impose needless restrictions on food and drink, so that the mother becomes completely exhausted just due to the tiny chance that she's rushed into surgery, while unconscious, and vomits but noone in the surgical suite notices and she aspirates.  They share nothing about body positioning or sacral pressure to relieve back labor, to adjust baby's position, or to help labor progress.  None of this is hippy-dippy, spirit-crystal nonsense... it mostly comes down to biomechanics.

They do push pitocin, which raises the need for an epidural, which raises the need for surgery.  That's what they do, because their specialties are crisis management, and unfortunately they end up creating crises.  We pay a lot more for all these interventions and they do provide worse outcomes.


My poor sister-in-law spent THREE DAYS in the hospital in labor, going back and forth between painkillers and epidurals, to the point where it had been going on for so long that they just decided to go for the c-section. What a counter-productive way of wasting money.
 
2013-07-02 12:30:20 PM  

Mrbogey: tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

Read the caveat:

Note that due to differences in reporting, these numbers may not be comparable across countries; while the WHO recommendation is that all children who show signs of life should be recorded as live births, in many countries this standard is not followed, artificially lowering their infant mortality rates relative to countries which follow those standards.


THIS. Those comparable mortality rates are incredibly unreliable. Also, I know some doctors who have been down to Cuba and I wouldn't trust anything they tell you. While there are some great doctors down there, most facilities have grossly inadequate supplies.
 
2013-07-02 12:30:39 PM  

likefunbutnot: One of my cousins is raising her three kids on a life-long vegan diet. The oldest is 12 and he's physically smaller than seven and eight year old kids from other relatives.


Smaller people consume less and love Earth more.  Except hobbits--they dig into mother Earth and eat tremendous amounts.  Filthy, nasty hobbitses.
 
2013-07-02 12:30:47 PM  

Diogenes: theorellior: gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

I have an acquaintance who named her son "Bear". I don't quite get the logic, but whatevs. So far I've resisted the urge to say things like, "Feeling cranky and fussy? Better drink my own piss!"

Reminds me of a punchline for a joke.  I forget the full flow of the joke narrative but it essentially had to do with Indian women competing to have the strongest son with the chief by conceiving on rugs made of animal hides.  Bear was the best because, "The son of the squa on the one hide is equal to the sons of the squas on the other two hides."


I'm gonna have to try and track that one down - I love stories with a PUNch line. Here are a few of my favorites:

"Better Nate than lever"

"People who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones"

"If the foo shiats, wear it"

Of course, my favorite bad story joke isn't even a pun - it's the story of The 99 Steps, and on a good day, I can spend over 20 minutes telling the story... just to end with the punch line "Corn flakes are more popular than scrambled eggs."

/I usually start running shortly after that.
 
2013-07-02 12:31:57 PM  
so, do Vegans swallow when giving BJ's?
 
2013-07-02 12:32:34 PM  
Vegans suffer from dual mental challenges.  Firstly, they have a deluded sense of moral self-awareness, that has been heightened by peer pressure to the point where they rationalize an irraitonal belief structure in order to maintain the false self-esteem that comes with that feeling of moral superiority.  Declaring themselves "vegans" makes them feel like they are somehow a mor advanced segment of society.  They see those who do not follow their lifestyle as primitive and driven by instinct rather than intellect.

Secondly..and arguably CAUSED by the first problem...is that they are unable to normalize basic biological concepts with regards to the nature of omnivourous species.  Their ability to think analytically is impaired by the self-imposed moral compass.  A vegan is simply incapable of accurately understanding the anthropology of humans and the natural order of things because their self-imposed hyper-morality corrupts the thought process from the start.  They are convinced that "intelligence" by its very nature excluded us from the food chain, and so they dismiss out of hand the biological and physiological attributes that make us omnivores in the first place.

IOW, Vegans are basically 'tarded.
 
2013-07-02 12:32:54 PM  

Nabb1: THIS. Those comparable mortality rates are incredibly unreliable. Also, I know some doctors who have been down to Cuba and I wouldn't trust anything they tell you. While there are some great doctors down there, most facilities have grossly inadequate supplies.


Nice!  That makes us 33rd!  USA!  USA!  USA!
 
2013-07-02 12:33:05 PM  

tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you.  The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies.


Meh. Highest infant mortality of the first world goes hand-in-hand with lowest literacy rates, poorest education and healthcare, and a spate of other stats that put us squarely at the very bottom of civilized countries.

We are still above average for most third world countries though. USA! USA! USA!
 
2013-07-02 12:33:08 PM  

nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?


Lots, and very often yes.

/If I abuse a vegan mother, will the baby taste the hate?
 
2013-07-02 12:33:33 PM  

namegoeshere: There have been breast milk banks for a long time now. Some medically fragile babies can not tolerate formula, and must drink breast milk. If Mom can't produce enough, they're screwed.

The only difference here is the whole vegan thing.


I've got it.  Use ninjas.  I mean, I have on good authority that ninjas are mammals, so surely ninja breast milk would do the trick.
 
2013-07-02 12:34:17 PM  

factoryconnection: Our hospitals are exceedingly poor at supporting women in labor without resorting to drugs.  They push the "lie on the bed on your back" position, the MOST PAINFUL position possible and least supportive for the baby coming out.


Our pre-natal classes, required by our HMO & taught by midwives from the HMO, bashed all the "lay on your back and push" old school stuff.  I think many/most know not to do that now, although many/most also will assign delivery to nurse midwives rather than a full OB/GYN due to cost. (There's OB/GYN always on call, but only for the problems, like our first child)

We also knew the risks of pitocin & the escalation in interventions (also part of our pre-natal classes). In the end, we didn't need all the interventions, but we were getting close to that point with our first child.
 
2013-07-02 12:35:19 PM  

borg: It's vegan if it's your own being used to feed your child(ren).


[cough] BULLSHIATE!
 
2013-07-02 12:35:33 PM  
I think veganism is a bit extreme but don't take any real issue with adults who choose to follow a vegan diet.

But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

All it says to me when people insist their children follow a vegan diet is that they're fine with harming their own kids as long as no animal is harmed.

The whole breast milk sharing thing from TFA is nothing new, people have been doing stuff like that for years. That being said, if the issue is that vegan moms are unable to produce enough milk for their OWN babies, where exactly do they think this doner milk is going to come from if the only acceptable doners are other vegan moms?

Sounds like someone didn't think their cunning plan all the way through.

/If your ideology is harming your children, it's probably time to reevaluate some things.
//same goes for anti-vaccers who are mindlessly farking with herd immunity and harming OTHER people's children too.
///don't even get me started on the "prayers instead of medicine" crowd.
 
2013-07-02 12:35:46 PM  

factoryconnection: tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

Our hospitals are exceedingly poor at supporting women in labor without resorting to drugs.  They push the "lie on the bed on your back" position, the MOST PAINFUL position possible and least supportive for the baby coming out.  They impose artificial time tables.  They create nightmare-scenario warnings about "baby is too big based on the ultrasound" that has a quite-large error band.  They're slaves to due dates, even though they're educated guesses.  They impose needless restrictions on food and drink, so that the mother becomes completely exhausted just due to the tiny chance that she's rushed into surgery, while unconscious, and vomits but noone in the surgical suite notices and she aspirates.  They share nothing about body positioning or sacral pressure to relieve back labor, to adjust baby's position, or to help labor progress.  None of this is hippy-dippy, spirit-crystal nonsense... it mostly comes down to biomechanics.

They do push pitocin, which raises the need for an epidural, which raises the need for surgery.  That's what they do, because their specialties are crisis management, and unfortunately they end up creating crises.  We pay a lot more for all these interventions and they do provide worse outcomes.


This pit-epi cycle is exactly why we went with a midwife.
 
2013-07-02 12:36:07 PM  

MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I could not fathom what kind of garbage these docs have to go through with crunchy granola parents who want to do "natural" things with their kid.  UGH.


They often have their babies at home with the assistance of crunchy-granola doulas.
 
2013-07-02 12:36:56 PM  

factoryconnection: "I care enough about my baby to breastfeed it and seek out extra milk when I can't produce, but not so much that I'll accept any from someone that might have eaten some cheese in the last decade."

Is this to make sure that the kids don't get any veterinary antibiotics or hormones?  Because the proteins and fats in breastmilk are generated from broken-down food nutrients in the mom's body... there isn't any "cow" left in the milk.

I guess this makes it 100% clear that her kids are raised vegan as well.  Hmmm...


IT's because if you fed the kids formula or god forbid, milk from a non-vegan, you'd completely destroy the kid's superpowers before they even had a chance to develop.

/Scott Pilgrim was a documentary
// Attention Vegan Women:  producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body.  when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong.  Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.
 
2013-07-02 12:39:59 PM  

Mrbogey: The My Little Pony Killer: Wow, I was thinking of switching my cat over to raw food for the nutrition, but something more along the lines of meats, not the ingredients for my salad.

If you feed your cats raw meat, make sure you include taurine, vitamin E, and B vitamins supplements. Most muscle meat doesn't have enough of those in it to give them full nutrition.


It has what cats crave.
 
2013-07-02 12:40:36 PM  

theorellior: gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

I have an acquaintance who named her son "Bear". I don't quite get the logic, but whatevs. So far I've resisted the urge to say things like, "Feeling cranky and fussy? Better drink my own piss!"


Growing up, I knew a guy named 'Thunder'.

/some parents
 
2013-07-02 12:40:37 PM  

Diogenes:  Ten months later, she famously posted a video sharing how she straight from her own mouth with food she pre-chewed, a practice known as premastication.

Bird in brain in deed.

I wonder if you can suck on someone else's boobs and then deposit the milk in your kid's mouth?


Snowball?
 
2013-07-02 12:40:52 PM  

nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?


Vegans keep animal slaves?  I think not.  Sometimes they ARE "animal parents" of domesticated animals- you know, just to keep them out of non "no-kill" shelters, and as a parent they'd prefer their four legged offspring adopt thier lifestyle choice, but forcibly imposing it on them would violate their principles  (besides kitties are obligate carnivores-no real way around that)
 
2013-07-02 12:43:22 PM  

JeffKochosky: "Better Nate than lever"

"People who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones"

"If the foo shiats, wear it"

Of course, my favorite bad story joke isn't even a pun - it's the story of The 99 Steps, and on a good day, I can spend over 20 minutes telling the story... just to end with the punch line "Corn flakes are more popular than scrambled eggs."


Also look into the Focus ranch story and

Joker - "What does he have clamped in his mouth?"
Victim - "The cigar!"
Joker - "No.  The brick."

This one also involves a hasty retreat.
 
2013-07-02 12:43:32 PM  
"We taught a lion to eat tofu..."
encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com

Oh, and, "You can't OWN property man!"
i1.ytimg.com
 
2013-07-02 12:44:00 PM  

Magorn: nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?

Vegans keep animal slaves?  I think not.  Sometimes they ARE "animal parents" of domesticated animals- you know, just to keep them out of non "no-kill" shelters, and as a parent they'd prefer their four legged offspring adopt thier lifestyle choice, but forcibly imposing it on them would violate their principles  (besides kitties are obligate carnivores-no real way around that)


Evolution Vegan Cat Food, comrade.

With this food, you won't be giving your cats any slaughterhouse leftovers and contaminated animal parts filled with hormone residue - it is comprised solely of whole vegetables and added nutrients essential to proper health for cats of all ages. Available in two flavors - Gourmet Entree and Vegetable Stew.
 
2013-07-02 12:44:05 PM  

Wangiss: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I could not fathom what kind of garbage these docs have to go through with crunchy granola parents who want to do "natural" things with their kid.  UGH.

They often have their babies at home with the assistance of crunchy-granola doulas.


Midwife plus doula.
And it was scary yet wonderful.
 
2013-07-02 12:44:09 PM  
She better vet out the buyers or else there's going to be some really weird parody porn popping up in the future.
 
2013-07-02 12:45:34 PM  

gregario: so, do Vegans swallow when giving BJ's?


If they've been vegan any substantial time, swallowing would make them sick.
 
2013-07-02 12:45:47 PM  

YixilTesiphon: the money is in the banana stand: YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.

Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.

Can't you not attend school without immunization records? Isn't that part of the enrollment process?

My understanding is that schools aren't very good about enforcing that. (No idea, this will be my first.) My concern is that some dumbass's baby will get a disease from their older sibling while my baby hasn't been vaccinated yet (since they can't handle all vaccinations immediately), and then the daycare will get infected.


Waivers are available for religious, health, and in some jurisdictions, personal reasons.  That's freedom.  Plus, some people can't handle the stuff in vaccines--people allergic to eggs, for example.  I have a friend with an Antimony sensitivity and she can't even take injections with most metal needles or she'll go into life-threatening shock.  There are all kinds of bodies out there, and public school has to be available to nearly everyone or it's not really public.
 
2013-07-02 12:46:29 PM  

tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.


True as far as it goes, but misleading in context. It's true that in aggregate, our numbers look quite bad. In fact, by current 2013 estimates, it's actually worse than you say; we're more like 50th.

But as with many statistics, it turns out that economic disparities have a severe impact on the aggregates. Restrict yourself to the folks with the "best" access to care and our numbers become some of the best in the world. I put "best" in quotes because while I'd call it the best access to care, I'm not so sure you would: these are the people getting all those elective C-sections and anesthetics you so deplore.

There is, of course, a dark side to that. If we're getting those good numbers on one side, then someone's got to be getting really bad numbers to drag the aggregate down. And, in fact, someone is: the groups with less access to medical care. The ones who really go for the alternatives, not because they're "more natural," but because they're seen as cheaper than the hospital. And this is what happens.
 
2013-07-02 12:46:45 PM  
I don't understand vegans, but then again I'm paleo, so what the hell do I know ( probably a little more about evolution than vegans for starters)
 
2013-07-02 12:48:06 PM  
Vegans?

images2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-07-02 12:50:06 PM  

trappedspirit: Pray 4 Mojo: If your diet is causing your inability to properly feed your baby... maybe there's another, simpler solution.

Ditch the baby


The very rare both funny and smart voted post.
 
2013-07-02 12:50:30 PM  
Geesh Fark, no pictures yet?

www.rex-fox.com

3.bp.blogspot.com

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-07-02 12:51:02 PM  

namegoeshere: There have been breast milk banks for a long time now. Some medically fragile babies can not tolerate formula, and must drink breast milk. If Mom can't produce enough, they're screwed.

The only difference here is the whole vegan thing. And the fact that (I'm not 100% sure on this one, but I believe) babies who can drink formula but whose parents choose not to feed it to them would not have access to the limited supply of donated breast milk in the established breast milk bank. Although I'm sure there are women who will sell their milk to whomever will pay.


*whoever
 
2013-07-02 12:51:35 PM  

wambu: It's vegan if we say it's vegan comma dammit!


Voice recognition pwned!
 
2013-07-02 12:52:04 PM  
Thing is, being unable to produce enough milk is supposed to be the exception to the rule.

If you have a bunch of people from different areas of the country, different ethnic backgrounds, etc., and the only two things they have in common are an inability to produce milk and a vegan diet...

I know correlation doesn't equal causation, but... yeesh.
 
2013-07-02 12:53:33 PM  
I prescribe homeopathic doses of bacon and stinky cheese taken nasally provided the pigs for the bacon were fed only organically grown food and for the cheese only goats milk turned into cheese with biodynamic cheesemaking and free range goats.
 
2013-07-02 12:53:50 PM  

Wangiss: They often have their babies at home with the assistance of crunchy-granola doulas.


Do women do home births without nurse midwives?  The doula may be there but the CNM is an accredited, masters-level medical practitioner.  I've seen lots of home birth videos and read the stories but they all had CNMs in attendance.

tuna fingers: This pit-epi cycle is exactly why we went with a midwife.


My wife's first delivery was as bumpy as can be without surgery being involved, for a variety of reasons including her dural sac not being particularly accepting of an epidural administration.  That made the pitocin contractions that much worse.

She went natural, using Hypnobabies with our second, at a hospital, and it was basically painless except when the admitting nurse made her lie on her back for monitoring.  We went with the midwife birth center with #3 because the hospital was more of an encumbrance and expense with a low-risk, natural birth than anything.  Plus they had this dedicated birthing pool and a REAL BED to sleep in afterward.

Even that midwife couldn't compute how calm the wife was when she was in transition and pushing.  She wanted to send us home even though the baby was coming.
 
2013-07-02 12:53:58 PM  

nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?


My dog eats meat.  I don't.  I'm not an animal.  I can make choices that a dog can't.


Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.


Some women just don't make milk.  It doesn't matter what their diet is.  My ex produced plenty.  One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.


Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.


What nutrients would they be missing?  My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born.  Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.
 
2013-07-02 12:54:43 PM  

ciberido: namegoeshere: There have been breast milk banks for a long time now. Some medically fragile babies can not tolerate formula, and must drink breast milk. If Mom can't produce enough, they're screwed.

The only difference here is the whole vegan thing.

I've got it.  Use ninjas.  I mean, I have on good authority that ninjas are mammals, so surely ninja breast milk would do the trick.


But you can't milk them while they're fighting, and ninjas fight ALL the time!
 
2013-07-02 12:55:58 PM  
http://www.exvegans.com/

Those (vegan) people are crazy!

I'm going to upload some snarky submissions and ruin their fun if the content is not monitored.
 
2013-07-02 12:56:37 PM  

JeffKochosky: Diogenes: theorellior: gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

I have an acquaintance who named her son "Bear". I don't quite get the logic, but whatevs. So far I've resisted the urge to say things like, "Feeling cranky and fussy? Better drink my own piss!"

Reminds me of a punchline for a joke.  I forget the full flow of the joke narrative but it essentially had to do with Indian women competing to have the strongest son with the chief by conceiving on rugs made of animal hides.  Bear was the best because, "The son of the squa on the one hide is equal to the sons of the squas on the other two hides."

I'm gonna have to try and track that one down - I love stories with a PUNch line. Here are a few of my favorites:

"Better Nate than lever"

"People who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones"

"If the foo shiats, wear it"

Of course, my favorite bad story joke isn't even a pun - it's the story of The 99 Steps, and on a good day, I can spend over 20 minutes telling the story... just to end with the punch line "Corn flakes are more popular than scrambled eggs."

/I usually start running shortly after that.


Hugh, and only Hugh, can prevent florist friars.

A Benny shaved is a Benny earned.
 
2013-07-02 12:57:39 PM  

Oldiron_79: Pocket Ninja: Using another woman's breast milk to feed your baby? This has never been done in the history of ever. We're breaking new ground here, people.

Guess people never heard of nursemaids back before formula was invented.


You'd trust nursemAIDS?
 
2013-07-02 12:57:58 PM  

tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.


Doesn't USA count all babies who die after 2nd trimester as an "infant mortality"?

Cuba only counts infant mortality of full term live births.

Kind of like comparing apples to oranges.
 
2013-07-02 12:58:45 PM  

tuna fingers: gregario: so, do Vegans swallow when giving BJ's?

If they've been vegan any substantial time, swallowing would make them sick.


That's not what Mary Moon says

/RUFF!
 
2013-07-02 12:59:22 PM  

theMagni: nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

My dog eats meat.  I don't.  I'm not an animal.  I can make choices that a dog can't.


Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

Some women just don't make milk.  It doesn't matter what their diet is.  My ex produced plenty.  One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.


Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

What nutrients would they be missing?  My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born.  Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.


Iron, vitamin b12, zinc, among many others

Vegetarian is fine, but vegan lacks many nutrients
 
2013-07-02 12:59:23 PM  
Yeah I don't really care what other people eat. It's not like they're stocking my refrigerator.
 
2013-07-02 12:59:57 PM  

factoryconnection: Nabb1: THIS. Those comparable mortality rates are incredibly unreliable. Also, I know some doctors who have been down to Cuba and I wouldn't trust anything they tell you. While there are some great doctors down there, most facilities have grossly inadequate supplies.

Nice!  That makes us 33rd!  USA!  USA!  USA!


US hospitals will record a live birth for any fetus that is delivered alive, even if pre-term. Many countries, including European countries do not. But if a prematurely delivered baby does not survive, even a few hours, a death certificate is issued.
 
2013-07-02 01:00:17 PM  

theMagni: nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

My dog eats meat.  I don't.  I'm not an animal.  I can make choices that a dog can't.


Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

Some women just don't make milk.  It doesn't matter what their diet is.  My ex produced plenty.  One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.


Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

What nutrients would they be missing?  My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born.  Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.


How do you get the animal proteins that you need?
Soy and nuts only go so far.
 
2013-07-02 01:01:50 PM  

WildManBand: http://www.exvegans.com/

Those (vegan) people are crazy!

I'm going to upload some snarky submissions and ruin their fun if the content is not monitored.


Veganism applies to humans, and doesn't involve telling anyone to kill themselves. Whoever is running that site is apparently already having some fun, but it's got nothing to do with actual vegans.
 
2013-07-02 01:02:25 PM  

factoryconnection: We went with the midwife birth center with #3 because the hospital was more of an encumbrance and expense with a low-risk, natural birth than anything.  Plus they had this dedicated birthing pool and a REAL BED to sleep in afterward.



Congrats on all three.
 
2013-07-02 01:03:50 PM  
The only thing stupider than being a vegan is exposing your kid to  pooled viruses from other whackos.  Hepatitis A, B, C, D, HIV not to mention undiscovered viruses as well as things like Hanta and Ebola that are highly contagious.  It's like making your baby an IV drug abuser.
 
2013-07-02 01:03:54 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: WildManBand: http://www.exvegans.com/

Those (vegan) people are crazy!

I'm going to upload some snarky submissions and ruin their fun if the content is not monitored.

Veganism applies to humans, and doesn't involve telling anyone to kill themselves. Whoever is running that site is apparently already having some fun, but it's got nothing to do with actual vegans.


Careful. I don't think you are vegan enough. Just might make the list.
 
2013-07-02 01:04:15 PM  
Every time I hear that someone claims to be healthy on a vegan diet, I also remember that some people claim they can live without eating.
 
2013-07-02 01:04:36 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: There was a huge uproar in Phoenix when some mother left her child in daycare and one of the workers, when the kid was being fussy and hard to handle, whipped out her breast and suckled the kid.


You don't know if a complete stranger has AIDS or a host of other diseases that can be passed in breastmilk. Certain drugs (legal and illegal) can also be passed via breastmilk and can harm the baby.

So yeah, no random stranger.
 
2013-07-02 01:05:20 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: stuffy: [encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com image 190x265]
Sorry I prefer my Breast milk strait from the tap.

Holy shiat!  Who is she and where can I get more?!



Denise Milani.
You must be new to the internet.

i216.photobucket.com

i216.photobucket.com

i216.photobucket.com

i216.photobucket.com

i216.photobucket.com

i216.photobucket.com

I could go on, but I'm nearing violation of the "wall of boobs" rule.
I'll just leave you with this NSFW one of her (thong)
 
2013-07-02 01:06:46 PM  

shortymac: TheShavingofOccam123: There was a huge uproar in Phoenix when some mother left her child in daycare and one of the workers, when the kid was being fussy and hard to handle, whipped out her breast and suckled the kid.

You don't know if a complete stranger has AIDS or a host of other diseases that can be passed in breastmilk. Certain drugs (legal and illegal) can also be passed via breastmilk and can harm the baby.

So yeah, no random stranger.


I was thinking prostitute.
Babby gets food, daddy gets a beej, win win all around.
 
2013-07-02 01:08:11 PM  
roleplayerslament.files.wordpress.com

*cough*

Shut up and eat a farkin cheese burger already before you kill your poor baby, you stupid self important biatch.
 
2013-07-02 01:09:21 PM  

Luse: How do you get the animal proteins that you need?
Soy and nuts only go so far.


There's no such thing.
 
2013-07-02 01:10:01 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Pray 4 Mojo: nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?

Had an acquaintance many moons ago that was a "Raw Foodist"... whatever the fark that is. He had two Dobermans that he fed oranges and avocados and shiat. Asshole. The dogs were always way too skinny and pretty listless.

/We snuck them cans of Alpo or Pedigree at every opportunity.

Wow, I was thinking of switching my cat over to raw food for the nutrition, but something more along the lines of meats, not the ingredients for my salad.


My dog gets as much raw meat as I can send her way. Also, uncooked bones and the tough bits from livers that I prepare for myself. She loves it, but she also gets some grain-free dry food to round it out.
If you want to switch to a complete raw diet for your cat, I suggest lots of organs and bones (sardines can be a good source of that). They're obligate carnivores, so they eat the whole animal to get their nutrition.
 
2013-07-02 01:10:13 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: Luse: How do you get the animal proteins that you need?
Soy and nuts only go so far.

There's no such thing.


As a healthy vegan diet. We agree.
 
2013-07-02 01:10:45 PM  

theMagni: nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

My dog eats meat.  I don't.  I'm not an animal.  I can make choices that a dog can't.


Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

Some women just don't make milk.  It doesn't matter what their diet is.  My ex produced plenty.  One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.


Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

What nutrients would they be missing?  My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born.  Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.


Vitamin B-12, vitamin-A, vitamin-D, zinc, calcium. Without some sort of supplements, a vegan diet doesn't supply enough for a growing baby/child.
 
2013-07-02 01:10:46 PM  
Here's the thing:

If you choose to believe in something...anything...that requires you to behave a certain way, you *will* need moral support to *do* the right thing.

Vegans need to be a part of a community because the behavior they choose IS NOT NATURAL. Primates are omnivorous. As homo sapiens, we just happen to be wise enough to make decisions and plan for the future.

Any group which chooses to believe their behavior is RIGHT will NECESSARILY believe that the behavior of others is WRONG. But vegans are choosing to act against their biology. This causes lots of problems. Some people have the will to overcome, but that's not always a good thing as is evidenced here.
 
2013-07-02 01:11:24 PM  
if your diet can't sustain providing for you and your child, it's probably time to try a different diet
 
2013-07-02 01:11:55 PM  

pxlboy: theorellior: gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

I have an acquaintance who named her son "Bear". I don't quite get the logic, but whatevs. So far I've resisted the urge to say things like, "Feeling cranky and fussy? Better drink my own piss!"

Growing up, I knew a guy named 'Thunder'.

/some parents


My Norse friend (Eric) named one of his sons Thor.  This was about 30 years ago.
 
2013-07-02 01:12:14 PM  
 
2013-07-02 01:13:38 PM  
www.codinghorror.com
Alicia Silverstone is kind of crazy but also kind of hot.
 
2013-07-02 01:14:15 PM  

tuna fingers: Wangiss: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I could not fathom what kind of garbage these docs have to go through with crunchy granola parents who want to do "natural" things with their kid.  UGH.

They often have their babies at home with the assistance of crunchy-granola doulas.

Midwife plus doula.
And it was scary yet wonderful.


Our midwife had two trainees with her: free doulas!  And they were practically experts.  It was freaking awesome.  A little crowded, though.
 
2013-07-02 01:14:19 PM  

p the boiler: I don't understand vegans, but then again I'm paleo, so what the hell do I know ( probably a little more about evolution than vegans for starters)


While I think being "paleo" is ultimately more nutritionally sound than than vegan, you ain't totally in a place to throw stones ,as  paleo is a sound nutritional principle (lower carb eating-since we really did evolve to eat far less carbs than agriculture allows us to eat) with a lot of extra hooey about which foods you can eat
 
2013-07-02 01:14:24 PM  

Fano: JeffKochosky: Diogenes: theorellior: gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

I have an acquaintance who named her son "Bear". I don't quite get the logic, but whatevs. So far I've resisted the urge to say things like, "Feeling cranky and fussy? Better drink my own piss!"

Reminds me of a punchline for a joke.  I forget the full flow of the joke narrative but it essentially had to do with Indian women competing to have the strongest son with the chief by conceiving on rugs made of animal hides.  Bear was the best because, "The son of the squa on the one hide is equal to the sons of the squas on the other two hides."

I'm gonna have to try and track that one down - I love stories with a PUNch line. Here are a few of my favorites:

"Better Nate than lever"

"People who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones"

"If the foo shiats, wear it"

Of course, my favorite bad story joke isn't even a pun - it's the story of The 99 Steps, and on a good day, I can spend over 20 minutes telling the story... just to end with the punch line "Corn flakes are more popular than scrambled eggs."

/I usually start running shortly after that.

Hugh, and only Hugh, can prevent florist friars.

A Benny shaved is a Benny earned.


Yeast is yeast, and nest is nest, and never the mane shall tweet.
 
2013-07-02 01:15:01 PM  

nocturnal001: MagicBoris: factoryconnection: "I care enough about my baby to breastfeed it and seek out extra milk when I can't produce, but not so much that I'll accept any from someone that might have eaten some cheese in the last decade."

Is this to make sure that the kids don't get any veterinary antibiotics or hormones?  Because the proteins and fats in breastmilk are generated from broken-down food nutrients in the mom's body... there isn't any "cow" left in the milk.

I guess this makes it 100% clear that her kids are raised vegan as well.  Hmmm...

That is not actually true. For instance, I know of a few kids who had a bovine protein allergy when they were very young (it tends to go away before the kid turns two, often earlier), and their mothers can't eat anything that has a trace of beef or milk as long as they're breastfeeding.

My son had a dairy milk allergy.  While she was breastfeeding she had to avoid any cow milk. Goat milk and beef meat was fine.

The FA is still odd though.  Many women do not make enough breastmilk, you just supplement with formula. No need to get other titties involved.


There are actually hospital-endorsed programs that collect and distribute breast milk for mothers who are ill, indigent, or when the mother died, but the parents still want to feed the baby breast milk (for whatever reasons).  I think this is good.

Then there is Alicia Silverstone, whose only qualification is that the milk be from a vegan woman.  Vegan with HIV?  YES PLEASE.  Healthy meat-eating woman?  GET AWAY FROM ME WITH YOUR TAINTED MILK!
 
2013-07-02 01:15:05 PM  
Kuta:
Any group which chooses to believe their behavior is RIGHT will NECESSARILY believe that the behavior of others is WRONG. But vegans are choosing to act against their biology. This causes lots of problems. Some people have the will to overcome, but that's not always a good thing as is evidenced here.

It should be noted that consuming the milks of other beasts is against our biology too.

/I love cheese.
 
2013-07-02 01:16:17 PM  

Nabb1: factoryconnection: Nabb1: THIS. Those comparable mortality rates are incredibly unreliable. Also, I know some doctors who have been down to Cuba and I wouldn't trust anything they tell you. While there are some great doctors down there, most facilities have grossly inadequate supplies.

Nice!  That makes us 33rd!  USA!  USA!  USA!

US hospitals will record a live birth for any fetus that is delivered alive, even if pre-term. Many countries, including European countries do not. But if a prematurely delivered baby does not survive, even a few hours, a death certificate is issued.


Cool. Now can you give us some more helpful rationalizations to help us work around why we are squarely in the middle of the third world for most of our other inconvenient benchmarks?
 
2013-07-02 01:16:57 PM  

borg: It's vegan if it's your own being used to feed your child(ren).


Since the whole point of this co-op is to feed OTHERS children (or to feed your own children another mammal's breast milk), it is not vegan.
 
2013-07-02 01:17:21 PM  

ciberido: Eddie Adams from Torrance: Isn't all milk "breast milk"?

No.  Cows don't have breasts, therefore milk from cows cannot be breast milk.  Only primates have breasts.


Yes, also women have nipples, animals have teats. Long ago in vocational agriculture class, around the age of 15 or so I had to tell about the parts of the cow, and instead of teats I said nipples, being awestruck of the mammaries of the few girls in the class. Hilarity ensued and I was greatly embarrassed.
 
2013-07-02 01:17:36 PM  

IRQ12: Am I reading this right:  They're vegan because that's supposedly what we are supposed to be by nature or whatever but in being vegan they can't produce enough milk to keep their babies alive?


I thought she was vegan because "meat is murder" and her whole being a PETA spokesperson.

Vegan is not a natural state of affairs for human beings, and is a lifestyle made possible only by modern means.
 
2013-07-02 01:17:51 PM  

give me doughnuts: Vitamin B-12, vitamin-A, vitamin-D, zinc, calcium. Without some sort of supplements, a vegan diet doesn't supply enough for a growing baby/child.


There's no certainly no lack of A, D, zinc or calcium in a decent vegan diet. Vegans eats plants, remember? B-12 is likely to be supplemented, but it's easy to get in fortified foods and it's recommended widely, not just for vegans.
 
2013-07-02 01:18:11 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: Luse: How do you get the animal proteins that you need?
Soy and nuts only go so far.

There's no such thing.


Tuarine, Vitamin b-12
 
2013-07-02 01:18:47 PM  
On a more serious note, apparently some hard core vegans have held the opinion that breast milk is not vegan, leading to some horribly undernourished infants, and too-late interventions by the state.
 
2013-07-02 01:19:42 PM  
Not sure why she gets flack for the video about chewing up food for her baby. I've done that several times when we have gone out to eat. It's so much easier to just share food off your plate. We like to make sure he gets enough protien but he doesn't have enough teeth to chew the steak on his own yet.
Was the video that weird, cuz it just seems like a normal mom-thing to me?
 
2013-07-02 01:20:16 PM  

Kuta: Here's the thing:

If you choose to believe in something...anything...that requires you to behave a certain way, you *will* need moral support to *do* the right thing.

Vegans need to be a part of a community because the behavior they choose IS NOT NATURAL. Primates are omnivorous. As homo sapiens, we just happen to be wise enough to make decisions and plan for the future.

Any group which chooses to believe their behavior is RIGHT will NECESSARILY believe that the behavior of others is WRONG. But vegans are choosing to act against their biology. This causes lots of problems. Some people have the will to overcome, but that's not always a good thing as is evidenced here.


Here's the thing:

A collection of logical fallacies and weird assertions doesn't make for a sensible post.
 
2013-07-02 01:20:57 PM  

CliChe Guevara: Cool. Now can you give us some more helpful rationalizations to help us work around why we are squarely in the middle of the third world for most of our other inconvenient benchmarks?


Yeah, counting statistics aside, I'd really like to see our massive expenditures, technology and know-how, tempered with many of our young, poor women (i.e. those that have the babies) having low access to that care put us, say top ten?

I mean, hell it would be great if our massive expenditures, tech, and knowledge put us first, but we can't go funding reproductive health concerns for people!
 
2013-07-02 01:21:15 PM  

factoryconnection: Wangiss: They often have their babies at home with the assistance of crunchy-granola doulas.

Do women do home births without nurse midwives?  The doula may be there but the CNM is an accredited, masters-level medical practitioner.  I've seen lots of home birth videos and read the stories but they all had CNMs in attendance.


Yeah, all the time.  My sister in law had three children at home within the last decade, completely unassisted.  I'm sure millions if not billions of babies have been born healthy that way.  Taxi cab babies, cave babies, war babies, shame babies... women tend to assist if they can, but some women have no friends or family.
 
2013-07-02 01:21:17 PM  

tuna fingers: Kuta:
Any group which chooses to believe their behavior is RIGHT will NECESSARILY believe that the behavior of others is WRONG. But vegans are choosing to act against their biology. This causes lots of problems. Some people have the will to overcome, but that's not always a good thing as is evidenced here.

It should be noted that consuming the milks of other beasts is against our biology too.

/I love cheese.


As a mutant that has inherited the trait of being able to digest lactose well into adulthood, so I am biologically able to digest it, I say, "Pass the Gouda".
 
2013-07-02 01:21:23 PM  

borg: It's vegan if it's your own being used to feed your child(ren).


DING correct, human milk is not an "animal product"
 
2013-07-02 01:22:06 PM  

legion_of_doo: YixilTesiphon: the money is in the banana stand: legion_of_doo: the money is in the banana stand: YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.
Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.

Can't you not attend school without immunization records? Isn't that part of the enrollment process?

You can get exemptions in California. I think that applies to both public & private schools now... farking asshole helicopter conspiracy nutters.
/yay, junk science!
/looks like Pennsylvania also has religious/ethical exemptions from vaccination

Wow, there should be no exemptions.

Well, if the Amish want to stay on their farms and fark around in their carriages, whatever, but the public schools shouldn't allow unvaccinated children.

Yeah, that's one of those things where religious & non-religious nutters must have equality in terms of the law.

/I don't know why the new California law forces private schools to deal with the same vac exemption nutters. The old law was public school only, as I recall That kind of pisses me off. farking government overreach. Must be farking Marin county again.


We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time.

I do not do what the hospital says without asking why they want to do it first. The hospital my wife works at - where both our kids were delivered iirc - has a 50% c section rate, and it's for insurance reasons. The doc told me that circumcision doesn't hurt and it's not a big deal, and I watched them strap my baby boy into a device that looked like a farking medieval torture chair with actual farking wrist and ankle clamps, and I have never in reality or film heard a scream so pained and terrified as my 48 hour old son getting his dick snipped. I feel like I failed to protect him and no, he doesn't remember, but it was done not for health reasons but both insurance and traditional reasons. There may be health reasons behind it but in both these cases, they are done to excess because it is convenient for the hospital, not what's best for the child and mother.

I think the progress in medical science has been the greatest boon to humanity, ever. That doesn't mean every practitioner is infallible.
 
2013-07-02 01:22:23 PM  

nocturnal001: My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?


In the early days of Usenet, someone described a vegan neighbor who would adopt a cat every so often, only to eventually lose them to a mysterious illness.  :-(
 
2013-07-02 01:22:45 PM  

Valiente: Might as well ship him back to Africa, because that's where his body type thrives in the form of 110-pound Ethiopian distance runners.


The odd thing is that 110 pound Ethiopian distance runners get a decent amount of animal protein because they run their prey into exhaustion.

Millennium: Raw beef is raw food, but it doesn't play well with the human digestive and immune systems. Trying to apply that to dogs is just plain psychotic, though: canines are well-adapted for eating raw meat.


That's only because of parasites and the fact that most of our 'fresh' beef is actually weeks old.  There was a study where a man existed solely on raw meats for several years.  He was quite healthy at the end of it.  Please note that this applies to raw MEAT, not specifically raw beef, which the Inuit didn't have.
 
2013-07-02 01:22:49 PM  

ajax6677: Not sure why she gets flack for the video about chewing up food for her baby. I've done that several times when we have gone out to eat. It's so much easier to just share food off your plate. We like to make sure he gets enough protien but he doesn't have enough teeth to chew the steak on his own yet.
Was the video that weird, cuz it just seems like a normal mom-thing to me?


Um, I'll admit that it is relatively normal in the way you're suggesting.  Birds do it!  I certainly wouldn't stop people from doing it in public.  (Or from breastfeeding, either.  Babies gotta eat and that's what mammaries are for.)

On the other hand, sharing chewed food does look farking disgusting.
 
2013-07-02 01:23:11 PM  

Nana's Vibrator: I sort of understand the concept and the spirit of vegans, but why work around the natural process of breast feeding if you don't HAVE to?  Human bodies evolved over many tens of thousands of years to do something that amazing.  What these vegans are doing is unnatural and potentially harmful.  And really, if you're that much of a disciplined vegan trying to live a certain way, probably the most natural and vegan thing you can do is to just let that little meat-needing sucker die.


Or you could RTFA and find out that vegans are a-ok with breastfeeding, since the mother is capable of consenting to give her milk to her child.
 
2013-07-02 01:23:43 PM  

I want your skull: Alicia Silverstone feeding her kid.


She's a cute woman, but that passing food from mouth to mouth grosses me out.
 
2013-07-02 01:23:59 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: give me doughnuts: Vitamin B-12, vitamin-A, vitamin-D, zinc, calcium. Without some sort of supplements, a vegan diet doesn't supply enough for a growing baby/child.

There's no certainly no lack of A, D, zinc or calcium in a decent vegan diet. Vegans eats plants, remember? B-12 is likely to be supplemented, but it's easy to get in fortified foods and it's recommended widely, not just for vegans.


Right. And popping pills is oh so natural.
Fortified sounds a heck of alot like processed too.

I'll just have a cheese burger, or some fresh crab. Sounds a bit better than a pill fortified tofu chunk.
 
2013-07-02 01:24:31 PM  

machoprogrammer: theMagni: nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

My dog eats meat.  I don't.  I'm not an animal.  I can make choices that a dog can't.


Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

Some women just don't make milk.  It doesn't matter what their diet is.  My ex produced plenty.  One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.


Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

What nutrients would they be missing?  My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born.  Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.

Iron, vitamin b12, zinc, among many others

Vegetarian is fine, but vegan lacks many nutrients


I'm not vegan, but my garden calls bullshiat on your Iron and zinc deficiency claims.
 
2013-07-02 01:25:15 PM  

ajax6677: Not sure why she gets flack for the video about chewing up food for her baby. I've done that several times when we have gone out to eat. It's so much easier to just share food off your plate. We like to make sure he gets enough protien but he doesn't have enough teeth to chew the steak on his own yet.
Was the video that weird, cuz it just seems like a normal mom-thing to me?


Thank you!  All that outrage over that video, and I was thinking "Errr...I've done that..."  We are out and about A LOT, and it's easier to just bite grapes in half, chew up pieces of meat, bite off pieces of my sandwich.  Both of my kids got teeth really late - the little one is fifteen months and only has her front four incisors.  But she's been eating only "real" food since she was 8 months (she HATES purees).  SOMEBODY has to bite it up for her!
 
2013-07-02 01:25:45 PM  

PsiChick: Nana's Vibrator: I sort of understand the concept and the spirit of vegans, but why work around the natural process of breast feeding if you don't HAVE to?  Human bodies evolved over many tens of thousands of years to do something that amazing.  What these vegans are doing is unnatural and potentially harmful.  And really, if you're that much of a disciplined vegan trying to live a certain way, probably the most natural and vegan thing you can do is to just let that little meat-needing sucker die.

Or you could RTFA and find out that vegans are a-ok with breastfeeding, since the mother is capable of consenting to give her milk to her child.


Is it okay for vegans to eat animals that died of natural causes?
 
2013-07-02 01:25:46 PM  

flondrix: borg: It's vegan if it's your own being used to feed your child(ren).

Since the whole point of this co-op is to feed OTHERS children (or to feed your own children another mammal's breast milk), it is not vegan.


You know, you're on the Internet. It wouldn't be very hard to look up the definition of veganism instead of making random assumptions. Vegans don't harm others without necessity. A mother giving her milk to another isn't causing harm.
 
2013-07-02 01:25:51 PM  

factoryconnection: tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

Our hospitals are exceedingly poor at supporting women in labor without resorting to drugs.  They push the "lie on the bed on your back" position, the MOST PAINFUL position possible and least supportive for the baby coming out.  They impose artificial time tables.  They create nightmare-scenario warnings about "baby is too big based on the ultrasound" that has a quite-large error band.  They're slaves to due dates, even though they're educated guesses.  They impose needless restrictions on food and drink, so that the mother becomes completely exhausted just due to the tiny chance that she's rushed into surgery, while unconscious, and vomits but noone in the surgical suite notices and she aspirates.  They share nothing about body positioning or sacral pressure to relieve back labor, to adjust baby's position, or to help labor progress.  None of this is hippy-dippy, spirit-crystal nonsense... it mostly comes down to biomechanics.

They do push pitocin, which raises the need for an epidural, which raises the need for surgery.  That's what they do, because their specialties are crisis management, and unfortunately they end up creating crises.  We pay a lot more for all these interventions and they do provide worse outcomes.


My OB/GYN refused to discuss inducing until I was at least one week overdue despite the fact we knew I was carrying an at least 9 lb baby, in his words "Plenty of women can deliver large babies, lets let nature take its course". Once I FINALLY went into labor (4 days post-due), the hospital, nurses and doctor did all they could to avoid surgery, pushing fluids and walking (though honestly I didn't want to walk), sitting on a ball, ect even though I had a mild fever and my wonderful son, who had previously been head down had moved to being sorta...off center, before finally laying out my options of continuing with a labor that was clearly going nowhere or c-section. They left the choice completely up to me. I elected to get him the hell out.

A hundred years ago I would have been one of those women who died in childbirth. Yaaaay modern medicine!

/10 lbs 4 oz
//14 inch round head
///husband is happy it was was a c-section

That said, agreed with all who said if being vegan is keeping you from naturally producing something your body should, maybe you need to reevaluate.
 
2013-07-02 01:26:55 PM  

flondrix: nocturnal001: My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?

In the early days of Usenet, someone described a vegan neighbor who would adopt a cat every so often, only to eventually lose them to a mysterious illness.  :-(


There is vegan cat food, and even they admit (some) cats need meat.

I mean, all cats need meat.  They're obligate carnivores for goodness sake

Sadly, when has science actually gotten in the way of ideology?
 
2013-07-02 01:28:35 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?

Had an acquaintance many moons ago that was a "Raw Foodist"... whatever the fark that is. He had two Dobermans that he fed oranges and avocados and shiat. Asshole. The dogs were always way too skinny and pretty listless.

/We snuck them cans of Alpo or Pedigree at every opportunity.


I hate these people. Want to be a vegan when you can make informed choices for yourself? Great! Do what you want. But the pets? Most likely indoor pets that won't have the opportunity to hunt? That's where I draw the line. Your pets were designed over X number of years to eat meat. They don't think about it the way some humans do. IT'S JUST WHAT THEY DO. Denying this is in my mind a form of animal cruelty.

/my little pooch is roughly 25lbs. but in one day he'd eat his weight in meat if I gave it to him
//always tosses some of whatever protein I'm cooking...dude needs meat
 
2013-07-02 01:29:02 PM  

ajax6677: Not sure why she gets flack for the video about chewing up food for her baby. I've done that several times when we have gone out to eat. It's so much easier to just share food off your plate. We like to make sure he gets enough protien but he doesn't have enough teeth to chew the steak on his own yet.
Was the video that weird, cuz it just seems like a normal mom-thing to me?


So you chew the food in your mouth, and then bend over your child, and pass the food from your mouth to your child's mouth?
 
2013-07-02 01:31:26 PM  

Wangiss: machoprogrammer: theMagni: nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

My dog eats meat.  I don't.  I'm not an animal.  I can make choices that a dog can't.


Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

Some women just don't make milk.  It doesn't matter what their diet is.  My ex produced plenty.  One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.


Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

What nutrients would they be missing?  My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born.  Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.

Iron, vitamin b12, zinc, among many others

Vegetarian is fine, but vegan lacks many nutrients

I'm not vegan, but my garden calls bullshiat on your Iron and zinc deficiency claims.



You growing a lot of oysters and liver in that garden?
 
2013-07-02 01:31:50 PM  

I_Am_Weasel: gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

*facepalm*

Scoff all you want, but he's already on his way to being a spokesperson.

[i297.photobucket.com image 300x300]


Unless he's homeschooled, in about 15-20 years you're gonna hear "Bear Blu commits suicide." I mean c'mon.... who names their kid Bear Blu? This is a child not a teddy bear...

/wanna produce more milk? Eat meat.
//Vegan, native word for "bad hunter."
 
2013-07-02 01:32:26 PM  

meat0918: Vegan is not a natural state of affairs for human beings, and is a lifestyle made possible only by modern means.


"Natural". A generally meaningless word, and a fallacy pretty much any time you make it into an argument. And using modern means or not, it is possible. So what?
 
2013-07-02 01:32:30 PM  
i329.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-02 01:34:11 PM  

legion_of_doo: ajax6677: Not sure why she gets flack for the video about chewing up food for her baby. I've done that several times when we have gone out to eat. It's so much easier to just share food off your plate. We like to make sure he gets enough protien but he doesn't have enough teeth to chew the steak on his own yet.
Was the video that weird, cuz it just seems like a normal mom-thing to me?

So you chew the food in your mouth, and then bend over your child, and pass the food from your mouth to your child's mouth?


Only when they're eating in restaurants.  It would be weird to do it at home.
 
2013-07-02 01:34:42 PM  
I really, really do not understand the hardcore vegetarians/vegans. Maybe meats and dairy aren't the best things to eat but they're not poison; you can eat them and survive.

I also don't get parents who force their kids to be vegan as every vegan kid I have heard about sounded like he was malnourished.
 
2013-07-02 01:34:53 PM  

Nabb1: Mikey1969: I'm fine with this except...

If you aren't able to produce enough milk to breast feed your kids, maybe being vegan isn't all that "natural" or "healthy"? Think about it for awhile, people.

Even many non-vegan mothers have milk-production issues, so it's not alway diet. But if your lifestyle leaves you unable to supplement low milk supply with formula, then you are making poor choices for your child.


If your lifestyle leaves you unable to have a proper milk supply (barring a genetic issue) you may want to look into it. If you can change it, you should. (Sometimes you can't.)

Not being able to produce enough milk for your kiddo should be a red flag. You likely have something going on that's not a good thing to leave going long term.
 
2013-07-02 01:35:15 PM  

factoryconnection: CliChe Guevara: Cool. Now can you give us some more helpful rationalizations to help us work around why we are squarely in the middle of the third world for most of our other inconvenient benchmarks?

Yeah, counting statistics aside, I'd really like to see our massive expenditures, technology and know-how, tempered with many of our young, poor women (i.e. those that have the babies) having low access to that care put us, say top ten?

I mean, hell it would be great if our massive expenditures, tech, and knowledge put us first, but we can't go funding reproductive health concerns for people!


In New Orleans, our primary problem is not the lack of available pre-natal care for poor and low-income women as much as it is the fact that those services are under-used, and many women show up to the hospital in labor with no pre-natal care.  We have major teaching hospitals that staff these clinics and they go largely unused. Someone needs to figure out why these women aren't going and get them there.
 
2013-07-02 01:35:28 PM  

Wangiss: Yeah, all the time. My sister in law had three children at home within the last decade, completely unassisted. I'm sure millions if not billions of babies have been born healthy that way. Taxi cab babies, cave babies, war babies, shame babies... women tend to assist if they can, but some women have no friends or family.


Yes, billions of babies have been born without CNMs, and of course there are the unplanned, unassisted ones, too.  They do say that babies born in elevators, taxis, et cetera have remarkably good outcomes.

I just didn't know if women in our country plan unassisted home births.  I've seen enough hemorrhaging to know that it is really, really helpful to have a medical practitioner on hand for even an uneventful birth, but that's just me.  And we're done at three anyhow.

I am Mayhem: A hundred years ago I would have been one of those women who died in childbirth. Yaaaay modern medicine!


Indeed; that's where modern medicine shines.  Your experience is atypical, however.

Also, my wife had a 99%-head child vaginally and her husband hasn't had any complaints about it since.
 
2013-07-02 01:35:59 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: PsiChick: Nana's Vibrator: I sort of understand the concept and the spirit of vegans, but why work around the natural process of breast feeding if you don't HAVE to?  Human bodies evolved over many tens of thousands of years to do something that amazing.  What these vegans are doing is unnatural and potentially harmful.  And really, if you're that much of a disciplined vegan trying to live a certain way, probably the most natural and vegan thing you can do is to just let that little meat-needing sucker die.

Or you could RTFA and find out that vegans are a-ok with breastfeeding, since the mother is capable of consenting to give her milk to her child.

Is it okay for vegans to eat animals that died of natural causes?


Fark if I know, I'm not a vegan.
 
2013-07-02 01:36:02 PM  

gregario: so, do Vegans swallow when giving BJ's?


tthey dont eat cream or meat so no
 
2013-07-02 01:37:03 PM  

legion_of_doo: ajax6677: Not sure why she gets flack for the video about chewing up food for her baby. I've done that several times when we have gone out to eat. It's so much easier to just share food off your plate. We like to make sure he gets enough protien but he doesn't have enough teeth to chew the steak on his own yet.
Was the video that weird, cuz it just seems like a normal mom-thing to me?

So you chew the food in your mouth, and then bend over your child, and pass the food from your mouth to your child's mouth?


Is that what she did in the video? That is weird for sure. I bite off pieces, chew up some of the tougher stuff, and take it out of my mouth first before feeding him with my fingers.
He is 17 months now so we aren't doing that as often but he's still going strong with the breastfeeding. :)
 
2013-07-02 01:38:54 PM  

PsyLord: FTA: The idea, she explained, stemmed from an email she received from a friend and new mom, who said she simply wasn't producing enough milk and couldn't trust that those offering donor milk shared the strict vegan diet.

How would her site screen for those donating milk to be strict vegans?


Im gonna go find some whore, knock her up, and feed her on a steady diet of bill millers bbq and mexican food JUST so I can send this dumb biatch some "vegan" milk.
 
2013-07-02 01:39:38 PM  
1. We've completely eliminated poverty and hunger when people have this to biatch about.
2. Don't people grow out of this shiat by the time they graduate college at the very latest? I mean people dick around with hippie bullshiat until junior year or so, but they usually get over it.
 
2013-07-02 01:40:06 PM  

I am Mayhem: That said, agreed with all who said if being vegan is keeping you from naturally producing something your body should, maybe you need to reevaluate.


Who says it is? Random people in this thread apparently. Vegan threads become echo chambers for the ignorant and trollish. These people aren't dieticians and just like to repeat nonsense. Even the ADA endorsed vegan diets years ago.

http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/705553
 
2013-07-02 01:40:29 PM  

ajax6677: legion_of_doo: ajax6677: Not sure why she gets flack for the video about chewing up food for her baby. I've done that several times when we have gone out to eat. It's so much easier to just share food off your plate. We like to make sure he gets enough protien but he doesn't have enough teeth to chew the steak on his own yet.
Was the video that weird, cuz it just seems like a normal mom-thing to me?

So you chew the food in your mouth, and then bend over your child, and pass the food from your mouth to your child's mouth?

Is that what she did in the video? That is weird for sure. I bite off pieces, chew up some of the tougher stuff, and take it out of my mouth first before feeding him with my fingers.
He is 17 months now so we aren't doing that as often but he's still going strong with the breastfeeding. :)


It's not that she does it on occasion when out and about and without a better option (such as a magic bullet - love that thing). It's that she is a militant AW about it: LOOK WHAT I DO FOR MY CHILD I AM BEST MOM ALL OTHERS WHO DO NOT SPIT INTO THEIR BABBIES' MOUTHS ARE BAD MOMS.
 
2013-07-02 01:40:42 PM  
Bathia_Mapes:
Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Shut up, we're here to unjustifiably hate on vegans and chew gum, and we're all outta gum.
 
2013-07-02 01:41:11 PM  
factoryconnection:

Also, my wife had a 99%-head child vaginally and her husband hasn't had any complaints about it since.

Our midwife had to perform an emergency episiotomy when the baby got stuck... it's noticeable.  My wife theorizes that she did too many Kegel exercises, or not quite correctly, or something.
 
2013-07-02 01:41:39 PM  

factoryconnection: Wangiss: Yeah, all the time. My sister in law had three children at home within the last decade, completely unassisted. I'm sure millions if not billions of babies have been born healthy that way. Taxi cab babies, cave babies, war babies, shame babies... women tend to assist if they can, but some women have no friends or family.

Yes, billions of babies have been born without CNMs, and of course there are the unplanned, unassisted ones, too.  They do say that babies born in elevators, taxis, et cetera have remarkably good outcomes.

I just didn't know if women in our country plan unassisted home births.  I've seen enough hemorrhaging to know that it is really, really helpful to have a medical practitioner on hand for even an uneventful birth, but that's just me.  And we're done at three anyhow.

I am Mayhem: A hundred years ago I would have been one of those women who died in childbirth. Yaaaay modern medicine!

Indeed; that's where modern medicine shines.  Your experience is atypical, however.

Also, my wife had a 99%-head child vaginally and her husband hasn't had any complaints about it since.


Episiotomy with a "husband stitch" afterwards?

/jk
 
2013-07-02 01:41:49 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: give me doughnuts: Vitamin B-12, vitamin-A, vitamin-D, zinc, calcium. Without some sort of supplements, a vegan diet doesn't supply enough for a growing baby/child.

There's no certainly no lack of A, D, zinc or calcium in a decent vegan diet. Vegans eats plants, remember? B-12 is likely to be supplemented, but it's easy to get in fortified foods and it's recommended widely, not just for vegans.


Vitamin D is tough to get from plant sources. Unless you eat nothing but mushrooms
 
2013-07-02 01:42:20 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: s it okay for vegans to eat animals that died of natural causes?


Would you eat a human leg you found in a dumpster? If you think that's okay, sure go for it.
 
2013-07-02 01:42:24 PM  

Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.


That's not true.  The last one put up quit a fight!
 
2013-07-02 01:42:57 PM  

machoprogrammer: 1. Put snakes on plane: give me doughnuts: Vitamin B-12, vitamin-A, vitamin-D, zinc, calcium. Without some sort of supplements, a vegan diet doesn't supply enough for a growing baby/child.

There's no certainly no lack of A, D, zinc or calcium in a decent vegan diet. Vegans eats plants, remember? B-12 is likely to be supplemented, but it's easy to get in fortified foods and it's recommended widely, not just for vegans.

Vitamin D is tough to get from plant sources. Unless you eat nothing but mushrooms


Helpful hint: Go outside.
 
2013-07-02 01:43:06 PM  

Nabb1: factoryconnection: CliChe Guevara: Cool. Now can you give us some more helpful rationalizations to help us work around why we are squarely in the middle of the third world for most of our other inconvenient benchmarks?

Yeah, counting statistics aside, I'd really like to see our massive expenditures, technology and know-how, tempered with many of our young, poor women (i.e. those that have the babies) having low access to that care put us, say top ten?

I mean, hell it would be great if our massive expenditures, tech, and knowledge put us first, but we can't go funding reproductive health concerns for people!

In New Orleans, our primary problem is not the lack of available pre-natal care for poor and low-income women as much as it is the fact that those services are under-used, and many women show up to the hospital in labor with no pre-natal care.  We have major teaching hospitals that staff these clinics and they go largely unused. Someone needs to figure out why these women aren't going and get them there.


Someone needs to figure it out? Really? Perhaps it is because those folks are probably not as educated as to what these services are or why they are important. For most people, Sex-Ed is like an hour long course taught in elementary school. Health class is often times optional or "taught" by a gym teacher who doesn't care. This is the same reason people have no clue how personal finances should work or how to live. The school system does not teach BASIC skills, but academic - most of which kids will have no use for. Parents are responsible for teaching their kids EVERYTHING else, and the likelihood they even have parents or knowledgeable parents is slim to none.

If you want to remedy that situation, you start teaching important shiat in school - or advertise in between day time TV along with the scumbag lawyers, technical schools, and fast food commercials.
 
2013-07-02 01:43:49 PM  

Wangiss: machoprogrammer: theMagni: nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

My dog eats meat.  I don't.  I'm not an animal.  I can make choices that a dog can't.


Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

Some women just don't make milk.  It doesn't matter what their diet is.  My ex produced plenty.  One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.


Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

What nutrients would they be missing?  My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born.  Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.

Iron, vitamin b12, zinc, among many others

Vegetarian is fine, but vegan lacks many nutrients

I'm not vegan, but my garden calls bullshiat on your Iron and zinc deficiency claims.


Plants don't have near the amount that liver, oysters and meat have
 
2013-07-02 01:45:14 PM  

PsiChick: Nana's Vibrator: I sort of understand the concept and the spirit of vegans, but why work around the natural process of breast feeding if you don't HAVE to?  Human bodies evolved over many tens of thousands of years to do something that amazing.  What these vegans are doing is unnatural and potentially harmful.  And really, if you're that much of a disciplined vegan trying to live a certain way, probably the most natural and vegan thing you can do is to just let that little meat-needing sucker die.

Or you could RTFA and find out that vegans are a-ok with breastfeeding, since the mother is capable of consenting to give her milk to her child.


And there you have it.  People just aren't familiar with Rothbard.
 
2013-07-02 01:46:18 PM  
Ancient act of compassion that has been depicted many times in art.

The largest Human Breast Milk Bank in the world is found in Brazil.
 
2013-07-02 01:46:52 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: meat0918: Vegan is not a natural state of affairs for human beings, and is a lifestyle made possible only by modern means.

"Natural". A generally meaningless word, and a fallacy pretty much any time you make it into an argument. And using modern means or not, it is possible. So what?


Veganism is not healthy without modern assistance.  This includes the easy availability of the foods transported around the world to sustain it, as well as the many synthetic supplements available.

Vegetarianism can be healthy however, and many Americans eat too WAY much meat.
 
2013-07-02 01:48:03 PM  

namegoeshere: machoprogrammer: 1. Put snakes on plane: give me doughnuts: Vitamin B-12, vitamin-A, vitamin-D, zinc, calcium. Without some sort of supplements, a vegan diet doesn't supply enough for a growing baby/child.

There's no certainly no lack of A, D, zinc or calcium in a decent vegan diet. Vegans eats plants, remember? B-12 is likely to be supplemented, but it's easy to get in fortified foods and it's recommended widely, not just for vegans.

Vitamin D is tough to get from plant sources. Unless you eat nothing but mushrooms

Helpful hint: Go outside.


Unless you live in Florida, good luck getting enough skin exposure to get adequate vitamin D in winter
 
2013-07-02 01:48:14 PM  

machoprogrammer: 1. Put snakes on plane: give me doughnuts: Vitamin B-12, vitamin-A, vitamin-D, zinc, calcium. Without some sort of supplements, a vegan diet doesn't supply enough for a growing baby/child.

There's no certainly no lack of A, D, zinc or calcium in a decent vegan diet. Vegans eats plants, remember? B-12 is likely to be supplemented, but it's easy to get in fortified foods and it's recommended widely, not just for vegans.

Vitamin D is tough to get from plant sources. Unless you eat nothing but mushrooms


Vitamin D is easy to get.

Go stand in the sun.
 
2013-07-02 01:48:35 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: There was a huge uproar in Phoenix when some mother left her child in daycare and one of the workers, when the kid was being fussy and hard to handle, whipped out her breast and suckled the kid.


Breast milk from a poor person is unclean.
 
2013-07-02 01:48:38 PM  

brap: Is this just for women with children.

How do they feel about adult homemade mozzarella celebrity cheese fetishists?  I'm asking for a friend.


I've had human milk mozzarella. It's delicious.
 
2013-07-02 01:49:20 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: Pray 4 Mojo: s it okay for vegans to eat animals that died of natural causes?

Would you eat a human leg you found in a dumpster? If you think that's okay, sure go for it.


OMG!  Wow!  Yes, making use of meat that would otherwise go to waste - same as cannibalism!

Please, continue...

/such awesome kookdom
 
2013-07-02 01:49:25 PM  

give me doughnuts: Wangiss: machoprogrammer: theMagni: nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

My dog eats meat.  I don't.  I'm not an animal.  I can make choices that a dog can't.


Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

Some women just don't make milk.  It doesn't matter what their diet is.  My ex produced plenty.  One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.


Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

What nutrients would they be missing?  My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born.  Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.

Iron, vitamin b12, zinc, among many others

Vegetarian is fine, but vegan lacks many nutrients

I'm not vegan, but my garden calls bullshiat on your Iron and zinc deficiency claims.


You growing a lot of oysters and liver in that garden?


I live in the Rocky Mountains.

You're funny.
 
2013-07-02 01:49:39 PM  

WildManBand: http://www.exvegans.com/

Those (vegan) people are crazy!

I'm going to upload some snarky submissions and ruin their fun if the content is not monitored.


LOL! Is this College Liberal/Bad Argument Hippie?
http://www.exvegans.com/wp-content/themes/directorypress/thumbs/unkn ow n-821--2013-07-02395694110x110.jpg
 
2013-07-02 01:49:47 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: Pray 4 Mojo: s it okay for vegans to eat animals that died of natural causes?

Would you eat a human leg you found in a dumpster? If you think that's okay, sure go for it.


No... I wouldn't eat a cow leg I found in the dumpster either. Not really the same thing.

If I still had my goats that we used to eat weeds... and I walked out on morning and watch one keel over and die... I wouldn't just throw it away... and if it died of natural causes... I don't get the vegan objection.

/Vegans are wasteful
//And farking annoying
 
2013-07-02 01:51:08 PM  

darwinpolice: This just seems to be an attempt to provide adequate nutrition to babies without the mothers having to compromise their diets.


No, it's also rejecting help from other mothers who happen to not be vegan because...reasons. Milk banks are already available, but for some vegans they aren't "clean" enough.

Vegans don't insist that their vegetables do not receive any nutrition from animals (which the vegetables likely did if they are organic) so why would they insist that their milk producer didn't receive any nutrition from animals?
 
2013-07-02 01:51:27 PM  

Befuddled: I really, really do not understand the hardcore vegetarians/vegans. Maybe meats and dairy aren't the best things to eat but they're not poison; you can eat them and survive.

I also don't get parents who force their kids to be vegan as every vegan kid I have heard about sounded like he was malnourished.


How selectively did you read this thread?
 
2013-07-02 01:52:18 PM  

Befuddled: I really, really do not understand the hardcore vegetarians/vegans. Maybe meats and dairy aren't the best things to eat but they're not poison; you can eat them and survive.


Vegans avoid all unnecessary harm to others. It's not a diet. It's a fundamentally different way of living that encompasses diet.

I also don't get parents who force their kids to be vegan as every vegan kid I have heard about sounded like he was malnourished.

Every omnivore kid I have heard about is obese. Not really, that would be silly. Put vegan kids in a lineup with fit omnivore kids and you'd have no way of telling. Cite some studies showing any different health incidences and then you'd have a point.
 
2013-07-02 01:52:18 PM  
You and your offspring can live perfectly healthy lives on a vegan diet. Widespread veganism is made possible due to modern commerce, if not in some regions it would be impossible or nearly impossible. You should be, you know, on the down low about it not screaming I'M SPECIAL regarding it. Elsewise you look like an ass.

As for the breast milk either go for it, take what's offered, or just freaking use formula or let the kid starve. That's also natural.
 
2013-07-02 01:52:37 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: 1. Put snakes on plane: Pray 4 Mojo: s it okay for vegans to eat animals that died of natural causes?

Would you eat a human leg you found in a dumpster? If you think that's okay, sure go for it.

No... I wouldn't eat a cow leg I found in the dumpster either. Not really the same thing.

If I still had my goats that we used to eat weeds... and I walked out on morning and watch one keel over and die... I wouldn't just throw it away... and if it died of natural causes... I don't get the vegan objection.

/Vegans are wasteful
//And farking annoying


I assume you would have a vet make sure it was natural causes before dining?  I could understand butchering it up in hopes you could eat it, but damn, I'd have to make 100% sure of how it died.
 
2013-07-02 01:53:47 PM  

meat0918: machoprogrammer: 1. Put snakes on plane: give me doughnuts: Vitamin B-12, vitamin-A, vitamin-D, zinc, calcium. Without some sort of supplements, a vegan diet doesn't supply enough for a growing baby/child.

There's no certainly no lack of A, D, zinc or calcium in a decent vegan diet. Vegans eats plants, remember? B-12 is likely to be supplemented, but it's easy to get in fortified foods and it's recommended widely, not just for vegans.

Vitamin D is tough to get from plant sources. Unless you eat nothing but mushrooms

Vitamin D is easy to get.

Go stand in the sun.


Try getting vitamin D from the sun in a cold climate in winter...
 
2013-07-02 01:54:38 PM  

meat0918: IRQ12: Am I reading this right:  They're vegan because that's supposedly what we are supposed to be by nature or whatever but in being vegan they can't produce enough milk to keep their babies alive?

I thought she was vegan because "meat is murder" and her whole being a PETA spokesperson.

Vegan is not a natural state of affairs for human beings, and is a lifestyle made possible only by modern means.


Which is not a true indictment though.

I don't agree with the Vegan philosophy but there are many things we no longer do that are "natural" but are now frowned upon due to moral reasons.
 
2013-07-02 01:55:18 PM  

machoprogrammer: Vitamin D is tough to get from plant sources. Unless you eat nothing but mushrooms


It's not in many animal sources either. Fortunately, most people can make their own.
 
2013-07-02 01:56:40 PM  

factoryconnection: Wangiss: Yeah, all the time. My sister in law had three children at home within the last decade, completely unassisted. I'm sure millions if not billions of babies have been born healthy that way. Taxi cab babies, cave babies, war babies, shame babies... women tend to assist if they can, but some women have no friends or family.

Yes, billions of babies have been born without CNMs, and of course there are the unplanned, unassisted ones, too.  They do say that babies born in elevators, taxis, et cetera have remarkably good outcomes.

I just didn't know if women in our country plan unassisted home births.  I've seen enough hemorrhaging to know that it is really, really helpful to have a medical practitioner on hand for even an uneventful birth, but that's just me.  And we're done at three anyhow.

I am Mayhem: A hundred years ago I would have been one of those women who died in childbirth. Yaaaay modern medicine!

Indeed; that's where modern medicine shines.  Your experience is atypical, however.

Also, my wife had a 99%-head child vaginally and her husband hasn't had any complaints about it since.


When you use terms like "women in our country" it generalizes the discussion into a cultural one.  Both of these statements are accurate in context:
1. No, American women don't plan unassisted home births.
2. Yes, there are plenty of American women who plan unassisted home births.

As for elasticity, our midwife (who has been practicing over 30 years) has never delivered a child with a head as large as our most recent, fourth child born at home.  Yet the wife's tighter than she was after #1 in the hospital.  Who the hell knows.
 
2013-07-02 01:56:49 PM  

tuna fingers: factoryconnection:

Also, my wife had a 99%-head child vaginally and her husband hasn't had any complaints about it since.

Our midwife had to perform an emergency episiotomy when the baby got stuck... it's noticeable.  My wife theorizes that she did too many Kegel exercises, or not quite correctly, or something.


I think natural muscle tone and tissue repair ability has a lot to do with it. Some women end up looser, some end up with less room than before.
 
2013-07-02 01:58:31 PM  
 darwinpolice: This just seems to be an attempt to provide adequate nutrition to babies without the mothers having to compromise their diets.

No, it's also rejecting help from other mothers who happen to not be vegan because...reasons. Milk banks are already available, but for some vegans they aren't "clean" enough.

Vegans don't insist that their vegetables do not receive any nutrition from animals (which the vegetables likely did if they are organic) so why would they insist that their milk producer didn't receive any nutrition from animals?


I don't see how that wouldn't be hypocritical.  A carrot that "fed" off of cow shiat is very much different than giving your baby milk from a mom that slaughters and kills cows.  Not to mention that those animal proteins will wind up in the milk that you are giving your baby. Essentially, they would be feeding their baby meat.
 
2013-07-02 02:00:11 PM  

machoprogrammer: 1. Put snakes on plane: give me doughnuts: Vitamin B-12, vitamin-A, vitamin-D, zinc, calcium. Without some sort of supplements, a vegan diet doesn't supply enough for a growing baby/child.

There's no certainly no lack of A, D, zinc or calcium in a decent vegan diet. Vegans eats plants, remember? B-12 is likely to be supplemented, but it's easy to get in fortified foods and it's recommended widely, not just for vegans.

Vitamin D is tough to get from plant sources. Unless you eat nothing but mushrooms


Some people use sunlight.  It's more available in Southern Hippystan than in Northern Hippystan, though.  Those poor, unfortunate Seattle hippie vegans...
 
2013-07-02 02:00:40 PM  

FunkOut: tuna fingers: factoryconnection:

Also, my wife had a 99%-head child vaginally and her husband hasn't had any complaints about it since.

Our midwife had to perform an emergency episiotomy when the baby got stuck... it's noticeable.  My wife theorizes that she did too many Kegel exercises, or not quite correctly, or something.

I think natural muscle tone and tissue repair ability has a lot to do with it. Some women end up looser, some end up with less room than before.


Sounds right.  I enjoy loose women, but with the wife, I have less room in the bed than I had before.
How are you FO?
 
2013-07-02 02:01:03 PM  

noitsnot: 1. Put snakes on plane: Pray 4 Mojo: s it okay for vegans to eat animals that died of natural causes?

Would you eat a human leg you found in a dumpster? If you think that's okay, sure go for it.

OMG!  Wow!  Yes, making use of meat that would otherwise go to waste - same as cannibalism!

Please, continue...

/such awesome kookdom


So, you wouldn't kill and eat a human, and also wouldn't eat one you just found dead. I wouldn't kill and eat another animal, or eat one I just found dead. How remarkable!
 
2013-07-02 02:02:03 PM  

legion_of_doo: nocturnal001: My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

There's a Vegan pet movement made up of various animal torturers out there.

/it's okay to torture animals if they are our own pets!


Yea, I don't give two farks if people want to feed their kids vegan because humans can survive on a vegan diet (although I think it is silly to completely cut out certain foods that aren't particularly bad for you in moderation and would make eating enough protein/calcium/healthy fat a lot easier).

Dogs and cats? Not so much. You are uncomfortable feeding your dog meat? Then don't get a dog. I have vegetarian family members and they understand the necessity of feeding animals high animal protein diets.

I could go on and on about this but suffice it to say that many vets, people, and animal food manufacturers seem to think cat, dog, and human digestive systems are exactly the same. They aren't.

Anyway, I can't really hate on what AS is doing, there are programs for women to share breast milk that are [possibly] over-regulated and make it hard or even impossible for women to get breast milk if they don't have any. So women have to make their own sharing networks. Her network caters to certain beliefs. And there are women out there with freezers full of breast milk that they'd happily give away. Formula is great, but I would opt for breast milk if it was possible. Some babies can't drink formula anyway and not all mothers can make breast milk (even if they do everything "right" and eat a perfect diet). I didn't see where it said "I'd let my baby starve before giving him non-vegan breast milk or formula."

/1st world problems...
 
2013-07-02 02:02:39 PM  

machoprogrammer: Wangiss: machoprogrammer: theMagni: nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

My dog eats meat.  I don't.  I'm not an animal.  I can make choices that a dog can't.


Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

Some women just don't make milk.  It doesn't matter what their diet is.  My ex produced plenty.  One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.


Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

What nutrients would they be missing?  My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born.  Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.

Iron, vitamin b12, zinc, among many others

Vegetarian is fine, but vegan lacks many nutrients

I'm not vegan, but my garden calls bullshiat on your Iron and zinc deficiency claims.

Plants don't have near the amount that liver, oysters and meat have


Or pennies!
 
2013-07-02 02:03:07 PM  

profplump: darwinpolice: This just seems to be an attempt to provide adequate nutrition to babies without the mothers having to compromise their diets.

No, it's also rejecting help from other mothers who happen to not be vegan because...reasons. Milk banks are already available, but for some vegans they aren't "clean" enough.

Vegans don't insist that their vegetables do not receive any nutrition from animals (which the vegetables likely did if they are organic) so why would they insist that their milk producer didn't receive any nutrition from animals?


 You've never seen vegan fertilizer for sale, have you?

nocturnal001: meat0918: IRQ12: Am I reading this right:  They're vegan because that's supposedly what we are supposed to be by nature or whatever but in being vegan they can't produce enough milk to keep their babies alive?

I thought she was vegan because "meat is murder" and her whole being a PETA spokesperson.

Vegan is not a natural state of affairs for human beings, and is a lifestyle made possible only by modern means.

Which is not a true indictment though.

I don't agree with the Vegan philosophy but there are many things we no longer do that are "natural" but are now frowned upon due to moral reasons.


I'll submit on the natural point.  I have a problem with vegans claiming it is more natural, and I fell right into the same fallacy.  My bad.  I'll try not to repeat it.
 
2013-07-02 02:05:52 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: noitsnot: 1. Put snakes on plane: Pray 4 Mojo: s it okay for vegans to eat animals that died of natural causes?

Would you eat a human leg you found in a dumpster? If you think that's okay, sure go for it.

OMG!  Wow!  Yes, making use of meat that would otherwise go to waste - same as cannibalism!

Please, continue...

/such awesome kookdom

So, you wouldn't kill and eat a human, and also wouldn't eat one you just found dead. I wouldn't kill and eat another animal, or eat one I just found dead. How remarkable!


Perfectly rational IMO.

I always have wondered about artificial meat flavorings though.  I wouldn't eat artificial human flavor, but many veggie types seem cool with fake chicken flavor.

Of course I guess it depends on the why of Veganism.  Is it to prevent animal suffering? Then I guess it would fit. Still, somebody had to kill a chicken once in order to create that flavor. ;)
 
2013-07-02 02:06:15 PM  

meat0918: You've never seen vegan fertilizer for sale, have you?


I have. What I haven't seen for sale is large amounts and wide varieties of vegan-fertilized foodstuffs.
 
2013-07-02 02:06:18 PM  
*scans thread

cdn.wl.uproxx.com
 
2013-07-02 02:06:39 PM  

give me doughnuts: Vitamin B-12, vitamin-A, vitamin-D, zinc, calcium. Without some sort of supplements, a vegan diet doesn't supply enough for a growing baby/child.



Do you think that only cow milk has calcium and Vitamin D?  All of those things are in plants, except B-12, which is made by bacteria now.  And yes, we all take vitamin supplements.  Are you saying you don't?  Well, I guess you do if you eat meat, you just don't know what's in them.

/You get vitamin D by going outside.
//I'm fairly certain I've read more on nutrition than you have.
 
2013-07-02 02:07:22 PM  

profplump: darwinpolice: This just seems to be an attempt to provide adequate nutrition to babies without the mothers having to compromise their diets.

No, it's also rejecting help from other mothers who happen to not be vegan because...reasons. Milk banks are already available, but for some vegans they aren't "clean" enough.

Vegans don't insist that their vegetables do not receive any nutrition from animals (which the vegetables likely did if they are organic) so why would they insist that their milk producer didn't receive any nutrition from animals?


There may be some vegan, philosophical line somewhere about pooping being voluntary.  In Japan, you say "I want to take a dump," whereas in English we say "I have to take a dump."  Vegans may have some similar voluntaristic line they draw regarding the use of fertilizer.  We should have an intern look it up.

YOU!  INTERN!  COME HERE AN LOOK UP THIS POOP VOLUNTARISM PHILOSOPHY NOW, I COMMAND YOU!
 
2013-07-02 02:07:32 PM  
As the husband of a new mom that donates her excess breast milk (we have >600 oz in the freezer still!) to other new moms in the area, I'm getting a kick out of this thread...

/ Neither of us are vegan
/ Nom nom nom animal protein
 
2013-07-02 02:08:32 PM  

nocturnal001: I don't see how that wouldn't be hypocritical.  A carrot that "fed" off of cow shiat is very much different than giving your baby milk from a mom that slaughters and kills cows.  Not to mention that those animal proteins will wind up in the milk that you are giving your baby. Essentially, they would be feeding their baby meat.


I don't see how it's different. The cows were raised specifically to be slaughtered and create meat. The fact that we don't eat their shait doesn't change the fact that their shait only exists because we eat them.
 
2013-07-02 02:08:55 PM  

StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time


Stupid or troll?  It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals
 
2013-07-02 02:10:25 PM  
Anti-vaxxers? In a Vegan thread? More likely than I thought, apparently.
 
2013-07-02 02:10:31 PM  

Wangiss: pooping being voluntary


Yes, cows need to poop. But those cows aren't being raised to poop and then allowed to die natural deaths after a long life of pooping -- they're raised to be slaughtered and used as meat and other animal products.
 
2013-07-02 02:11:33 PM  

meat0918: I'll submit on the natural point. I have a problem with vegans claiming it is more natural, and I fell right into the same fallacy. My bad. I'll try not to repeat it.


And what vegans would those be? Vegans are capable of employing logical fallacies the same as anyone else, but there's no claim of veganism being "natural" in its definition.
 
2013-07-02 02:11:54 PM  

meat0918: profplump: darwinpolice: This just seems to be an attempt to provide adequate nutrition to babies without the mothers having to compromise their diets.

No, it's also rejecting help from other mothers who happen to not be vegan because...reasons. Milk banks are already available, but for some vegans they aren't "clean" enough.

Vegans don't insist that their vegetables do not receive any nutrition from animals (which the vegetables likely did if they are organic) so why would they insist that their milk producer didn't receive any nutrition from animals?

 You've never seen vegan fertilizer for sale, have you?

nocturnal001: meat0918: IRQ12: Am I reading this right:  They're vegan because that's supposedly what we are supposed to be by nature or whatever but in being vegan they can't produce enough milk to keep their babies alive?

I thought she was vegan because "meat is murder" and her whole being a PETA spokesperson.

Vegan is not a natural state of affairs for human beings, and is a lifestyle made possible only by modern means.

Which is not a true indictment though.

I don't agree with the Vegan philosophy but there are many things we no longer do that are "natural" but are now frowned upon due to moral reasons.

I'll submit on the natural point.  I have a problem with vegans claiming it is more natural, and I fell right into the same fallacy.  My bad.  I'll try not to repeat it.


I agree, it is decidedly LESS natural than an omnivorous diet. Aside from Gorillas, I don't know of any primates that are solid herbivores.
 
2013-07-02 02:12:35 PM  

legion_of_doo: How about starving your Vegan child to death to prove how Vegan you are?


Munchhausen's by proxy?
 
2013-07-02 02:14:09 PM  

profplump: Wangiss: pooping being voluntary

Yes, cows need to poop. But those cows aren't being raised to poop and then allowed to die natural deaths after a long life of pooping -- they're raised to be slaughtered and used as meat and other animal products.


And you were raised to feed the overclass' self-importance and make advertising money for Drew Curtis.  That doesn't mean everything you do is futile and...

holy shiat.
 
2013-07-02 02:15:33 PM  

You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll?  It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals


I'd guess that ship has already sailed, anyway.
 
2013-07-02 02:17:16 PM  

nocturnal001: Perfectly rational IMO.

I always have wondered about artificial meat flavorings though. I wouldn't eat artificial human flavor, but many veggie types seem cool with fake chicken flavor.

Of course I guess it depends on the why of Veganism. Is it to prevent animal suffering? Then I guess it would fit. Still, somebody had to kill a chicken once in order to create that flavor. ;)


I imagine so. There are Buddhist meat analogs going way back in history. Someone had to know what they tasted like along with the textures. But most vegans are made not born. I ate almost nothing but meat until I gave some thought about how I was living. And they could ask an omnivore. No shortage of them.

I have no problem with flavorings. Most of the flavor of meat comes from the seasonings anyway. The principle is the same--have a chunk of food taste better.
 
2013-07-02 02:17:20 PM  

nocturnal001: Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.


I worked a dairy farm throughout my high school years. Not milking a dairy cow is not just painful and stressful for them, it's cruel and can severely hurt, if not kill them. Most cows love being milked. They walk, voluntarily, into the dairy barn twice a day. The only ones that don't seem to enjoy it are the new mothers with their first calves, whose udders swell painfully tight. The calf can't get enough of the milk out or gets kicked in the face if it tries, so you have to be patient. If you don't the utter can literally destroy itself. Fark those ignorant vegan hypocrites. If they actually had any real world experience instead of whinging from their first-world ivory towers, they'd change their minds pretty quickly.
 
2013-07-02 02:18:09 PM  

PsiChick: Or you could RTFA and find out that vegans are a-ok with breastfeeding, since the mother is capable of consenting to give her milk to her child.


\o/
figures it would be a politics tabber and not a paracticing vegan
 
2013-07-02 02:18:45 PM  

legion_of_doo: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I could not fathom what kind of garbage these docs have to go through with crunchy granola parents who want to do "natural" things with their kid.  UGH.

You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

Pediatrics can be a hard specialty as it is, but I could not imagine being a doc here in the Bay Area. It's like nutter central, and so many think they're better/smarter than you.

It's a blessing when you find normal parents.


You need to be educated.
 
2013-07-02 02:20:44 PM  

WxGuy1: As the husband of a new mom that donates her excess breast milk (we have >600 oz in the freezer still!) to other new moms in the area, I'm getting a kick out of this thread...

/ Neither of us are vegan
/ Nom nom nom animal protein


My wife donated as well with our first and second children.
Turned what could have been a huge waste into a boon for somebody else.
 
2013-07-02 02:21:00 PM  

legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

Pediatrics can be a hard specialty as it is, but I could not imagine being a doc here in the Bay Area. It's like nutter central, and so many think they're better/smarter than you.

It's a blessing when you find normal parents.


You have my unwavering respect as a pediatrician. I do pediatric critical care transport, so I don't often have to deal with the overwhelming stupidity that leads up to the point of them needing my services like you do.
 
2013-07-02 02:21:30 PM  

ThighsofGlory: legion_of_doo: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I could not fathom what kind of garbage these docs have to go through with crunchy granola parents who want to do "natural" things with their kid.  UGH.

You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.
Pediatrics can be a hard specialty as it is, but I could not imagine being a doc here in the Bay Area. It's like nutter central, and so many think they're better/smarter than you.
It's a blessing when you find normal parents.

You need to be educated.


Exactly.

Nutter: "You aren't doing XYZ? What kind of parent are you?! You need to read this blog!"

Me: "NO I DON'T!"
 
2013-07-02 02:21:38 PM  

Wangiss: There may be some vegan, philosophical line somewhere about pooping being voluntary. In Japan, you say "I want to take a dump," whereas in English we say "I have to take a dump." Vegans may have some similar voluntaristic line they draw regarding the use of fertilizer. We should have an intern look it up.

YOU! INTERN! COME HERE AN LOOK UP THIS POOP VOLUNTARISM PHILOSOPHY NOW, I COMMAND YOU!


When possible, vegans use plants as fertilizer. Small scale, it's easy to do. There are some larger farms now doing it too.
 
2013-07-02 02:22:51 PM  

Wangiss: And you were raised to feed the overclass' self-importance and make advertising money for Drew Curtis.  That doesn't mean everything you do is futile and...


I would still exist even if Drew Curtis had no interest in advertising money. Cow poop would not exist if people had no interest in beef and other cow products.

At best you could make an argument that the sale of cow poop doesn't significantly increase the demand for cow slaughter (though it clearly does increase the demand a bit simply by increasing the value of the slaughter-bound cow), but if you make that argument I don't see why it wouldn't also apply to breast milk -- the increased demand for animal products related to producing breast milk is very small and probably not a driving factor in whether or not animals are slaughtered.
 
2013-07-02 02:23:53 PM  

legion_of_doo: You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll?  It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

I'd guess that ship has already sailed, anyway.


I suck. But I laughed at your subtle put down.
 
2013-07-02 02:24:12 PM  

machoprogrammer: Wangiss: machoprogrammer: theMagni: nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

My dog eats meat.  I don't.  I'm not an animal.  I can make choices that a dog can't.


Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

Some women just don't make milk.  It doesn't matter what their diet is.  My ex produced plenty.  One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.


Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

What nutrients would they be missing?  My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born.  Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.

Iron, vitamin b12, zinc, among many others

Vegetarian is fine, but vegan lacks many nutrients

I'm not vegan, but my garden calls bullshiat on your Iron and zinc deficiency claims.

Plants don't have near the amount that liver, oysters and meat have


I spent 6 months on a low carb, fairly high protein diet, was still vitamin D deficient at the end. Your meat is no cure-all.
 
2013-07-02 02:27:05 PM  

gajillion: I worked a dairy farm throughout my high school years. Not milking a dairy cow is not just painful and stressful for them, it's cruel and can severely hurt, if not kill them. Most cows love being milked. They walk, voluntarily, into the dairy barn twice a day. The only ones that don't seem to enjoy it are the new mothers with their first calves, whose udders swell painfully tight. The calf can't get enough of the milk out or gets kicked in the face if it tries, so you have to be patient. If you don't the utter can literally destroy itself. Fark those ignorant vegan hypocrites. If they actually had any real world experience instead of whinging from their first-world ivory towers, they'd change their minds pretty quickly.


Those darn vegans and them not wanting anything to do with the magic of rape racks, or breeding animals for our use at all! The absolute nerve!
 
2013-07-02 02:27:11 PM  

Wangiss: give me doughnuts: Wangiss: machoprogrammer: theMagni: nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

My dog eats meat.  I don't.  I'm not an animal.  I can make choices that a dog can't.


Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

Some women just don't make milk.  It doesn't matter what their diet is.  My ex produced plenty.  One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.


Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

What nutrients would they be missing?  My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born.  Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.

Iron, vitamin b12, zinc, among many others

Vegetarian is fine, but vegan lacks many nutrients

I'm not vegan, but my garden calls bullshiat on your Iron and zinc deficiency claims.


You growing a lot of oysters and liver in that garden?

I live in the Rocky Mountains.

You're funny.


Nice! Would LOL again.
 
2013-07-02 02:27:35 PM  
Hebalo:
I spent 6 months on a low carb, fairly high protein diet, was still vitamin D deficient at the end. Your meat is no cure-all.

How much sunlight did you get/not get in that time? Humans bio-synthesize about 90% of our Vitamin D.
 
2013-07-02 02:28:13 PM  

Hebalo: I spent 6 months on a low carb, fairly high protein diet, was still vitamin D deficient at the end. Your meat is no cure-all.


Setting in the basement and playing World of Warcraft the whole time might have had something to do with that Vitamin D Deficency. :)
 
2013-07-02 02:28:39 PM  

machoprogrammer: meat0918: machoprogrammer: 1. Put snakes on plane: give me doughnuts: Vitamin B-12, vitamin-A, vitamin-D, zinc, calcium. Without some sort of supplements, a vegan diet doesn't supply enough for a growing baby/child.

There's no certainly no lack of A, D, zinc or calcium in a decent vegan diet. Vegans eats plants, remember? B-12 is likely to be supplemented, but it's easy to get in fortified foods and it's recommended widely, not just for vegans.

Vitamin D is tough to get from plant sources. Unless you eat nothing but mushrooms

Vitamin D is easy to get.

Go stand in the sun.

Try getting vitamin D from the sun in a cold climate in winter...


Well it helps if you are white....s'why that mutation developed after all.  And people listen to me: if you don;t want the 'beetus, make sure you do that sun-standing thing, or take a Vit D pill. Vit D is critical to regulating the body's effient use of insulin, so when you have adequate levels your body makes less insulin which does wonderful things for your health over all
 
2013-07-02 02:29:44 PM  
I've known two couples that have/are raised/raising their kids (two each) vegan. Is it just coincidence that all four kids were pale, wan, sickly, and never had as much energy as their peers, and were unable to learn as quickly or as well as their peers? All four of the parents, having been raised on a well rounded diet, were of above average intelligence, healthy, and athletic.

If an adult makes a decision to go vegan that's one thing, if a child, who ALL have different nutritional needs than adult, is forced into a dietary plan unfit for them it borders upon abuse.

By the way, HUMANS ARE OMNIVORES.
 
2013-07-02 02:29:45 PM  

Magorn: Well it helps if you are white...


Oh. You're one of THOSE people. Your racism disgusts me. :)
 
2013-07-02 02:29:47 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: meat0918: I'll submit on the natural point. I have a problem with vegans claiming it is more natural, and I fell right into the same fallacy. My bad. I'll try not to repeat it.

And what vegans would those be? Vegans are capable of employing logical fallacies the same as anyone else, but there's no claim of veganism being "natural" in its definition.


I've met a few, in person, that have told me it is unnatural to eat meat.  I have also met a few, and am still friends with them, that don't.  We can even share a table without being dicks about our choices of food.

I'll make sure I point out the naturalistic fallacy in the unlikely event anyone ever says something similar to me again.

///I live in Eugene, Or, and travel in some very disparate social circles, to say the least.
//Not hitting up the Oregon Country Fair this year though.
 
2013-07-02 02:33:44 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: You bet your butt I'll be working closely with her vet and with people who have successfully raised animals on that diet if I do take her that route.


The trick is to realize that in the animal kingdom muscle is rated low on the desirability scale; the organs are considered much more valuable to wild animals; they're what they'll eat first, given the option.

Which, assuming you can find a source, normally makes organs pretty cheap.

tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies.


As others have noted, we manage to get more babies to the 'live birth' phase, which we're more liberal with granting even for babies that are obviously not going to make it, meaning we lose more that way.

Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

Yeah, It's not like Switzerland(32.4), Hungary(32.5), and Portugal(33) match the USA(32.3).  Korea(35.1), Italy(38.4), Mexico(42), Turkey(42.7), China(46.2), and Brazil(47.4) have insignificant numbers of C-Sections.

Magorn: // Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.


This.  Their bodies are actually optimized to make sure the kid's fed even at the expense of their own.  If they can't produce enough milk, especially for a 2nd child*, there's something seriously wrong.

*1st is often the 'throw-away', I'll admit
 
2013-07-02 02:33:51 PM  

gajillion: nocturnal001: Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

I worked a dairy farm throughout my high school years. Not milking a dairy cow is not just painful and stressful for them, it's cruel and can severely hurt, if not kill them. Most cows love being milked. They walk, voluntarily, into the dairy barn twice a day. The only ones that don't seem to enjoy it are the new mothers with their first calves, whose udders swell painfully tight. The calf can't get enough of the milk out or gets kicked in the face if it tries, so you have to be patient. If you don't the utter can literally destroy itself. Fark those ignorant vegan hypocrites. If they actually had any real world experience instead of whinging from their first-world ivory towers, they'd change their minds pretty quickly.


A vegan in an ivory tower.  Awesome.
 
2013-07-02 02:36:11 PM  

Nana's Vibrator: PsiChick: Or you could RTFA and find out that vegans are a-ok with breastfeeding, since the mother is capable of consenting to give her milk to her child.

\o/
figures it would be a politics tabber and not a paracticing vegan


Must...resist...urge...to...argue...with...thread...

...Must...resist...

:p
 
2013-07-02 02:36:15 PM  
I could be a lacto-ovo vegetarian, if it weren't for my love of seafood but never a vegan. We are omnivores, people. We at least need to be eating eggs and dairy and beans and rice. Actually, you can get most all of the nutrients you need from milk and potatoes. You know, you don't absorb the calcium as well in fat-free milk as you do from the real stuff, let alone soy or those other replacements. At least soy milk has enough protein. Babies should, ideally, have THEIR mother's milk. You pass your immunities on to your infant that way.
 
2013-07-02 02:36:52 PM  

profplump: Wangiss: And you were raised to feed the overclass' self-importance and make advertising money for Drew Curtis.  That doesn't mean everything you do is futile and...

I would still exist even if Drew Curtis had no interest in advertising money. Cow poop would not exist if people had no interest in beef and other cow products.

At best you could make an argument that the sale of cow poop doesn't significantly increase the demand for cow slaughter (though it clearly does increase the demand a bit simply by increasing the value of the slaughter-bound cow), but if you make that argument I don't see why it wouldn't also apply to breast milk -- the increased demand for animal products related to producing breast milk is very small and probably not a driving factor in whether or not animals are slaughtered.


This statement is false:  Cow poop would not exist if people had no interest in beef and other cow products.

Breastmilk is tasty.
 
2013-07-02 02:37:56 PM  

Millennium: YixilTesiphon: Pray 4 Mojo: nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

Had an acquaintance many moons ago that was a "Raw Foodist"... whatever the fark that is. He had two Dobermans that he fed oranges and avocados and shiat. Asshole. The dogs were always way too skinny and pretty listless.

/We snuck them cans of Alpo or Pedigree at every opportunity.

Beef isn't raw food?

Raw beef is raw food, but it doesn't play well with the human digestive and immune systems. Trying to apply that to dogs is just plain psychotic, though: canines are well-adapted for eating raw meat.


.
Well-adapted, and very willing.
My dog will be at my knee whenever I'm trimming any sort of meat... "Gonna Eat That?!?"
 
2013-07-02 02:38:20 PM  

ChipNASA: [cdn.hark.com image 720x464]
Greg : "Oh, you can milk just about anything with nipples."

Jack : Oh?....I have nipples, Greg, ... can you milk me?


Hmm, you know, with the right hormone treatment you can induce milk production in males, so yes, Robert De Niro is milkable, but only provisionally.
 
2013-07-02 02:38:24 PM  

You're the jerk... jerk: I suck. But I laughed at your subtle put down.


I know what you meant, but I had to anyway.

hardinparamedic: You have my unwavering respect as a pediatrician. I do pediatric critical care transport, so I don't often have to deal with the overwhelming stupidity that leads up to the point of them needing my services like you do.

I look at my kids' pediatrician as being on my team. She's a parent of a young kid herself. And my wife is the more cautious one when it comes to vaccines & such, in general.

What bugs me is the people who can afford it, have a lot of education, and choose not to follow the advice for their medical practitioners when it comes to simple stuff like vaccinations. It's not complicated, and the statistics are so small for things like Guillain Barre (I bet some of them buy $100 worth of lottery tickets as well when the Powerball goes up), let alone the magical link to Autism. That some of their stupidity could bite us, like the reemergence of pertussis around here in California... pisses me off.

Pedes isn't easy at all, and anyone who thinks so hasn't thought about dealing with suffering children. So, kudos right back at you.
 
2013-07-02 02:41:13 PM  
If vegans mothers have trouble producing milk, how to they expect to get extra milk from other vegan mothers?
 
2013-07-02 02:42:25 PM  

smedrick: If vegans mothers have trouble producing milk, how to they expect to get extra milk from other vegan mothers?


This is where the vegan haters' objection unravels.  Think it through.
 
2013-07-02 02:42:54 PM  

legion_of_doo: You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll?  It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

I'd guess that ship has already sailed, anyway.


2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-07-02 02:43:37 PM  

Luse: 1. Put snakes on plane: WildManBand: http://www.exvegans.com/

Those (vegan) people are crazy!

I'm going to upload some snarky submissions and ruin their fun if the content is not monitored.

Veganism applies to humans, and doesn't involve telling anyone to kill themselves. Whoever is running that site is apparently already having some fun, but it's got nothing to do with actual vegans.

Careful. I don't think you are vegan enough. Just might make the list.


I tried to "out" someone for eating an egg salad sandwich...site 404'd.
 
2013-07-02 02:44:47 PM  

legion_of_doo: t's not complicated, and the statistics are so small for things like Guillain Barre (I bet some of them buy $100 worth of lottery tickets as well when the Powerball goes up), let alone the magical link to Autism.


Oh, you might be interested in this then. Another study has come out that catagorically disproves the link between vaccination and GBS.
 
2013-07-02 02:45:24 PM  

Hebalo: machoprogrammer: Wangiss: machoprogrammer: theMagni: nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

My dog eats meat.  I don't.  I'm not an animal.  I can make choices that a dog can't.


Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

Some women just don't make milk.  It doesn't matter what their diet is.  My ex produced plenty.  One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.


Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

What nutrients would they be missing?  My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born.  Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.

Iron, vitamin b12, zinc, among many others

Vegetarian is fine, but vegan lacks many nutrients

I'm not vegan, but my garden calls bullshiat on your Iron and zinc deficiency claims.

Plants don't have near the amount that liver, oysters and meat have

I spent 6 months on a low carb, fairly high protein diet, was still vitamin D deficient at the end. Your meat is no cure-all.


That's because they have nothing to do with one another.  However   If you had supplemented your vitamin D,  the low carb diet would have worked so much better
 
2013-07-02 02:45:51 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: machoprogrammer: Vitamin D is tough to get from plant sources. Unless you eat nothing but mushrooms

It's not in many animal sources either. Fortunately, most people can make their own.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D#Dietary_sources

Vitamin D2 - Mushrooms / Yeast

Vitamin D3 - Oily Fish
 
2013-07-02 02:46:20 PM  

Nana's Vibrator: I sort of understand the concept and the spirit of vegans, but why work around the natural process of breast feeding if you don't HAVE to?  Human bodies evolved over many tens of thousands of years to do something that amazing.  What these vegans are doing is unnatural and potentially harmful.  And really, if you're that much of a disciplined vegan trying to live a certain way, probably the most natural and vegan thing you can do is to just let that little meat-needing sucker die.


Because some people have this need to feel morally superior to others at any cost.
 
2013-07-02 02:46:56 PM  

George Babbitt: Hebalo:
I spent 6 months on a low carb, fairly high protein diet, was still vitamin D deficient at the end. Your meat is no cure-all.

How much sunlight did you get/not get in that time? Humans bio-synthesize about 90% of our Vitamin D.


I'd say an average amount. No suntanning, but certainly not avoiding being outside. On the plus side, it was the only mineral deficiency I had (after 6 months of basically no fruit or dairy), and though I was eating a LOT of meat, etc, my cholesterol levels were the best they've every been.
 
2013-07-02 02:49:18 PM  

Coronach: I've known two couples that have/are raised/raising their kids (two each) vegan. Is it just coincidence that all four kids were pale, wan, sickly, and never had as much energy as their peers, and were unable to learn as quickly or as well as their peers? All four of the parents, having been raised on a well rounded diet, were of above average intelligence, healthy, and athletic.

If an adult makes a decision to go vegan that's one thing, if a child, who ALL have different nutritional needs than adult, is forced into a dietary plan unfit for them it borders upon abuse.

By the way, HUMANS ARE OMNIVORES.


An anecdote by some random Farker doesn't make for evidence. If you think vegan diets are unfit for children, become a RD and then convince the ADA with peer reviewed studies. Otherwise, you're just spewing unsubstantiated nonsense.

Oh, and yeah, humans are omnivores. Good job pointing that out.
 
2013-07-02 02:51:01 PM  

noitsnot: 1. Put snakes on plane: machoprogrammer: Vitamin D is tough to get from plant sources. Unless you eat nothing but mushrooms

It's not in many animal sources either. Fortunately, most people can make their own.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D#Dietary_sources

Vitamin D2 - Mushrooms / Yeast

Vitamin D3 - Oily Fish


Oily Fish - not vegan
 
2013-07-02 02:53:02 PM  
Aerosmith -Crazy

Look up the video, watch it, clean up, get back to work.
 
2013-07-02 02:53:16 PM  

hardinparamedic: legion_of_doo: t's not complicated, and the statistics are so small for things like Guillain Barre (I bet some of them buy $100 worth of lottery tickets as well when the Powerball goes up), let alone the magical link to Autism.

Oh, you might be interested in this then. Another study has come out that catagorically disproves the link between vaccination and GBS.


Cool. That is the only thing that gives me pause when we go in for the flu vaccines each year, although now the kids can do the flu mist.

/waiting for the influenza vaccine protesters... OMFG, it's not even required!
 
2013-07-02 02:54:40 PM  

hardinparamedic: legion_of_doo: t's not complicated, and the statistics are so small for things like Guillain Barre (I bet some of them buy $100 worth of lottery tickets as well when the Powerball goes up), let alone the magical link to Autism.

Oh, you might be interested in this then. Another study has come out that catagorically disproves the link between vaccination and GBS.


Excellent. More debunking of the conspiracy nutters is always a good thing.
 
2013-07-02 02:54:46 PM  
i44.tinypic.com

i'm the first?

should be SFW, it was on the cover of time magazine.
 
2013-07-02 02:55:25 PM  
Hebalo:

I'd say an average amount. No suntanning, but certainly not avoiding being outside. On the plus side, it was the only mineral deficiency I had (after 6 months of basically no fruit or dairy), and though I was eating a LOT of meat, etc, my cholesterol levels were the best they've every been.

What types of meat, out of curiosity? Also, what blood type are you?

/Some people have suggested that blood type plays a role in what we should eat based on when blood types developed in human history and what humans wer doing at that point in their development i.e. hunting, nomadic, agrarian, urbanized
 
2013-07-02 02:56:01 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Nana's Vibrator: I sort of understand the concept and the spirit of vegans, but why work around the natural process of breast feeding if you don't HAVE to?  Human bodies evolved over many tens of thousands of years to do something that amazing.  What these vegans are doing is unnatural and potentially harmful.  And really, if you're that much of a disciplined vegan trying to live a certain way, probably the most natural and vegan thing you can do is to just let that little meat-needing sucker die.

Because some people have this need to feel morally superior to others at any cost.


Exactly. The need to feel morally superior is the only reason we aren't all out raping and murdering each other at this very moment.
 
2013-07-02 02:56:06 PM  

smedrick: If vegans mothers have trouble producing milk, how to they expect to get extra milk from other vegan mothers?


If they keep pumping it, they'll keep producing it, even after their own kid is weaned.
 
2013-07-02 02:56:18 PM  

shiate: [i44.tinypic.com image 600x798]

i'm the first?

should be SFW, it was on the cover of time magazine.


Personally, I find breast feeding to be beautiful. There's a reason we refer to it as mother's medicine in the NI-

WHAT THE fark? THAT KID IS LIKE 6. WHAT THE farkING HELL, MAN.
 
2013-07-02 02:57:15 PM  
All I know is that my canines didn't evolve for eating lettuce.

/bloody meat FTW
 
2013-07-02 02:57:42 PM  

factoryconnection: tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

Our hospitals are exceedingly poor at supporting women in labor without resorting to drugs.  They push the "lie on the bed on your back" position, the MOST PAINFUL position possible and least supportive for the baby coming out.  They impose artificial time tables.  They create nightmare-scenario warnings about "baby is too big based on the ultrasound" that has a quite-large error band.  They're slaves to due dates, even though they're educated guesses.  They impose needless restrictions on food and drink, so that the mother becomes completely exhausted just due to the tiny chance that she's rushed into surgery, while unconscious, and vomits but noone in the surgical suite notices and she aspirates.  They share nothing about body positioning or sacral pressure to relieve back labor, to adjust baby's position, or to help labor progress.  None of this is hippy-dippy, spirit-crystal nonsense... it mostly comes down to biomechanics.

They do push pitocin, which raises the need for an epidural, which raises the need for surgery.  That's what they do, because their specialties are crisis management, and unfortunately they end up creating crises.  We pay a lot more for all these interventions and they do provide worse outcomes.


You forgot to mention the machine that goes "bing".
 
2013-07-02 02:58:12 PM  

George Babbitt: Hebalo:

I'd say an average amount. No suntanning, but certainly not avoiding being outside. On the plus side, it was the only mineral deficiency I had (after 6 months of basically no fruit or dairy), and though I was eating a LOT of meat, etc, my cholesterol levels were the best they've every been.

What types of meat, out of curiosity? Also, what blood type are you?

/Some people have suggested that blood type plays a role in what we should eat based on when blood types developed in human history and what humans wer doing at that point in their development i.e. hunting, nomadic, agrarian, urbanized


No idea what blood type. Meatwise, pretty much everything. Beef, chicken, pork, fish.
 
2013-07-02 02:58:16 PM  

tuna fingers: FunkOut: tuna fingers: factoryconnection:

Also, my wife had a 99%-head child vaginally and her husband hasn't had any complaints about it since.

Our midwife had to perform an emergency episiotomy when the baby got stuck... it's noticeable.  My wife theorizes that she did too many Kegel exercises, or not quite correctly, or something.

I think natural muscle tone and tissue repair ability has a lot to do with it. Some women end up looser, some end up with less room than before.

Sounds right.  I enjoy loose women, but with the wife, I have less room in the bed than I had before.
How are you FO?


I'm okay. Baby is overcoming her propensity for hysterical crying fits - you can distract her with crunchy rock guitar music. This heat sucks though.
 
2013-07-02 02:59:21 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: Coronach: I've known two couples that have/are raised/raising their kids (two each) vegan. Is it just coincidence that all four kids were pale, wan, sickly, and never had as much energy as their peers, and were unable to learn as quickly or as well as their peers? All four of the parents, having been raised on a well rounded diet, were of above average intelligence, healthy, and athletic.

If an adult makes a decision to go vegan that's one thing, if a child, who ALL have different nutritional needs than adult, is forced into a dietary plan unfit for them it borders upon abuse.

By the way, HUMANS ARE OMNIVORES.

An anecdote by some random Farker doesn't make for evidence. If you think vegan diets are unfit for children, become a RD and then convince the

ADA with peer reviewed studies. Otherwise, you're just spewing unsubstantiated nonsense.

Oh, and yeah, humans are omnivores. Good job pointing that out.


American Dental Association?
Americans with Disabilities Act?
American Diabetes Association?
 
2013-07-02 03:00:14 PM  

El Dudereno: You forgot to mention the machine that goes "bing".


www.sharinginhealth.ca

The machine that goes bing is totally not important. The bing is just there to annoy the nursing staff between pressing the silence button, of course. And to charge extra.
 
2013-07-02 03:01:20 PM  

nanim: My dog will be at my knee whenever I'm trimming any sort of meat... "Gonna Eat That?!?"


This becomes a problem when, like my first pup, your dog is very large. Putting his head right around cutting board height. Although it was always funny watching him sneak just the tongue up there. Like I wouldn't notice that.
 
2013-07-02 03:01:25 PM  

noitsnot: American Dental Association?
Americans with Disabilities Act?
American Diabetes Association?


American Dietary Association. RD is a Registered Dietician. They're clinicians who deal specifically with nutritional support for critically, acutely, and chronically ill  and injured patients.

They also do a lot of math. Brain-frying math.
 
2013-07-02 03:02:13 PM  

a_room_with_a_moose: All I know is that my canines didn't evolve for eating lettuce.

/bloody meat FTW


My canine teeth aren't even pointy. I evolved to eat cheese.
 
2013-07-02 03:02:30 PM  

ciberido: PsyLord: FTA: The idea, she explained, stemmed from an email she received from a friend and new mom, who said she simply wasn't producing enough milk and couldn't trust that those offering donor milk shared the strict vegan diet.

How would her site screen for those donating milk to be strict vegans?

Maybe she checks the "Ex-vegan Traitors" website to see if they've been excommunicated.


Holy God, you weren't kidding.
 
2013-07-02 03:02:33 PM  

ajax6677: legion_of_doo: ajax6677: Not sure why she gets flack for the video about chewing up food for her baby. I've done that several times when we have gone out to eat. It's so much easier to just share food off your plate. We like to make sure he gets enough protien but he doesn't have enough teeth to chew the steak on his own yet.
Was the video that weird, cuz it just seems like a normal mom-thing to me?

So you chew the food in your mouth, and then bend over your child, and pass the food from your mouth to your child's mouth?

Is that what she did in the video? That is weird for sure. I bite off pieces, chew up some of the tougher stuff, and take it out of my mouth first before feeding him with my fingers.
He is 17 months now so we aren't doing that as often but he's still going strong with the breastfeeding. :)


How do you deal with the teeth? I get the bonding & such, but the teeth. My wife has a stronger opinion on that than me, of course.

I don't know when the "right age" to stop the breastfeeding is, but I do think teeth is a reasonable reason to stop.

/I don't envy my wife's delivery of the kids, but I do wonder about the psychological aspects of being pregnant & the breastfeeding since it's something I won't ever experience.
/also, guys don't have the whole icky monthly thing, which is another bonus.
 
2013-07-02 03:03:25 PM  

hardinparamedic: noitsnot: American Dental Association?
Americans with Disabilities Act?
American Diabetes Association?

American Dietary Association. RD is a Registered Dietician. They're clinicians who deal specifically with nutritional support for critically, acutely, and chronically ill  and injured patients.

They also do a lot of math. Brain-frying math.


Can this thread evolve into debating the distinction between dietitian and nutritionist?

Or better yet, whether it is dietitian or dietician?
 
2013-07-02 03:04:43 PM  

noitsnot: American Dental Association?
Americans with Disabilities Act?
American Diabetes Association?


American Dietetic Association. Context and all...

I failed to link it above, but here's the endorsement again. Search for "ADA vegan" if it's not coming up.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/705344
 
2013-07-02 03:06:10 PM  
http://www.fark.com/comments/7823929/85142158#c85142158" target="_blank" data-cke-saved-href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7823929/85142158#c8 5142158">gajillion: nocturnal001: Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

I worked a dairy farm throughout my high school years. Not milking a dairy cow is not just painful and stressful for them, it's cruel and can severely hurt, if not kill them. Most cows love being milked. They walk, voluntarily, into the dairy barn twice a day. The only ones that don't seem to enjoy it are the new mothers with their first calves, whose udders swell painfully tight. The calf can't get enough of the milk out or gets kicked in the face if it tries, so you have to be patient. If you don't the utter can literally destroy itself. Fark those ignorant vegan hypocrites. If they actually had any real world experience instead of whinging from their first-world ivory towers, they'd change their minds pretty quickly.


I don't see dairy cows as being particularly put upon, but they do not really do it by choice. They are continually milked after having a calf, tricking their bodies into thinking they are still feeding a baby. They would pretty quickly dry up if we didn't keep milking them.  Being full of milk is painful (so I'm told) so they want to relieve that pressure. Technically, they are still being "used".

I understand where the Vegans are coming from, I just don't agree.  I do agree though that many can be annoying, just as many omnivores get mad that there are others out there who don't eat meat.
 
2013-07-02 03:06:12 PM  

theMagni: give me doughnuts: Vitamin B-12, vitamin-A, vitamin-D, zinc, calcium. Without some sort of supplements, a vegan diet doesn't supply enough for a growing baby/child.


Do you think that only cow milk has calcium and Vitamin D?  All of those things are in plants, except B-12, which is made by bacteria now.  And yes, we all take vitamin supplements.  Are you saying you don't?  Well, I guess you do if you eat meat, you just don't know what's in them.

/You get vitamin D by going outside.
//I'm fairly certain I've read more on nutrition than you have.


Isn't taking vitamin supplements admiting defeat? "Our vegan diet supplies us with all the nutrients we need so long as add these synthetic and animal-derived nutrients*!"


*But it's "certified" vegan! We pinky-swear!
 
2013-07-02 03:09:26 PM  

meat0918: Can this thread evolve into debating the distinction between dietitian and nutritionist?

Or better yet, whether it is dietitian or dietician?


A dietician is someone who has met the credentialing requirements of their State Medical Practice Act and the guidelines established by the ADA. They're actually a licensed health profession, and work under the license of a medical doctor or DO in doing what they do. At minimum, states require a Bachelors degree, some require a master's degree.

You cannot call yourself an RD or any other credential associated with it without holding a license for it. Kind of like how someone cannot call themselves a Paramedic or Nurse without having the associated license.

A "nutritionist" is a catch all. It can mean anyone from a masters level nurse with a certification in clinical nutrition, to some alt-med wackjob who got a correspondance certificate from FlyByNightMailOrderCollege.

That's my understanding on the matter, anyway.
 
2013-07-02 03:09:27 PM  

hardinparamedic: noitsnot: American Dental Association?
Americans with Disabilities Act?
American Diabetes Association?

American Dietary Association. RD is a Registered Dietician. They're clinicians who deal specifically with nutritional support for critically, acutely, and chronically ill  and injured patients.



They changed their name to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics in 2012.

http://www.eatright.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dietetic_Association
 
2013-07-02 03:09:32 PM  

hardinparamedic: El Dudereno: You forgot to mention the machine that goes "bing".

[www.sharinginhealth.ca image 350x277]

The machine that goes bing is totally not important. The bing is just there to annoy the nursing staff between pressing the silence button, of course. And to charge extra.


Yeah, that heartbeat line went totes flat at various times during contractions for both deliveries due to cord issues (one had it all wrapped around an arm, the other had a short cord). One kid needed a blood oxygen monitor hooked up on the way out due to the heartbeat going away, just to be sure things weren't going to be bad. Well, more bad.

Being someone who entertained the thought of a medical career, and with tons of respect for actual doctors & nurses, I didn't run around in a panic... but it was a bit concerning. Adding panic was not my job in the delivery room, though.

/Stay out of the way, help the wife.
 
2013-07-02 03:09:52 PM  

give me doughnuts: theMagni: give me doughnuts: Vitamin B-12, vitamin-A, vitamin-D, zinc, calcium. Without some sort of supplements, a vegan diet doesn't supply enough for a growing baby/child.


Do you think that only cow milk has calcium and Vitamin D?  All of those things are in plants, except B-12, which is made by bacteria now.  And yes, we all take vitamin supplements.  Are you saying you don't?  Well, I guess you do if you eat meat, you just don't know what's in them.

/You get vitamin D by going outside.
//I'm fairly certain I've read more on nutrition than you have.

Isn't taking vitamin supplements admiting defeat? "Our vegan diet supplies us with all the nutrients we need so long as add these synthetic and animal-derived nutrients*!"


*But it's "certified" vegan! We pinky-swear!


I'm not a vegan, but I'd bet most people's diets are not supplying them with all the nutrients they need, vegan or not. Pretty much everyone I know takes some kind of suppliment.
 
2013-07-02 03:10:24 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/705344


It's throwing the link away despite not needing a login. Let's try this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

And another right off their own site:

http://www.eatright.org/Public/content.aspx?id=6442476770

Anyone wants to argue nutrition, take it up with the experts:

Myth #4: Vegetarian diets are not appropriate for pregnant women, children or athletes.
A well-planned vegetarian or vegan diet can meet the nutrient needs of people from all stages of life, including pregnant and lactating women, children, and even athletes. It's just about making sure you get the nutrients you need. Pregnant women, for example, need more iron. So expectant mothers should eat plenty of iron-rich foods and include a source of vitamin C to help increase absorption (iron is not absorbed well from plant-based sources). Try these iron and vitamin C combinations: beans and salsa, broccoli and tofu, black-eyed peas and collard greens.
For infants, children and adolescents, a vegetarian diet can promote normal growth. As with adults, vegan children may have slightly higher protein needs because of how the body digests plant protein. However, these needs typically can be fulfilled if the diet provides enough calories and diversity of foods.
And while most competitive athletes require increased energy, protein and nutrient needs for optimal performance, there's no reason that they can't get everything they need nutritionally from plant sources. All it takes is a little diligence in menu planning.
 
2013-07-02 03:10:30 PM  
noitsnot:

They changed their name to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics in 2012.

http://www.eatright.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dietetic_Association


What does L. Ron Hubbard have to do with this?
 
2013-07-02 03:13:17 PM  

legion_of_doo: Being someone who entertained the thought of a medical career, and with tons of respect for actual doctors & nurses, I didn't run around in a panic... but it was a bit concerning. Adding panic was not my job in the delivery room, though.


OB is the one area I have no desire to be a part of. Birth is not beautiful. It's horrific, clothes ruining, and you see the human vagina contort in ways that it was never meant to do so outside of certain niche fetish videos.
 
2013-07-02 03:14:21 PM  

Highroller48: Vegans suffer from dual mental challenges.  Firstly, they have a deluded sense of moral self-awareness, that has been heightened by peer pressure to the point where they rationalize an irraitonal belief structure in order to maintain the false self-esteem that comes with that feeling of moral superiority.  Declaring themselves "vegans" makes them feel like they are somehow a mor advanced segment of society.  They see those who do not follow their lifestyle as primitive and driven by instinct rather than intellect.


Did you say vegans or atheists? The same can be said for lots of causes.

Secondly..and arguably CAUSED by the first problem...is that they are unable to normalize basic biological concepts with regards to the nature of omnivourous species.  Their ability to think analytically is impaired by the self-imposed moral compass.  A vegan is simply incapable of accurately understanding the anthropology of humans and the natural order of things because their self-imposed hyper-morality corrupts the thought process from the start.  They are convinced that "intelligence" by its very nature excluded us from the food chain, and so they dismiss out of hand the biological and physiological attributes that make us omnivores in the first place.

Every decision a human makes is natural.  Including the decision to go vegan.  To suggest otherwise is to suggest that intelligence alone puts humans above nature.  It may turn out to be a poor decision from a natural selection standpoint, but it certainly isn't unnatural.
 
2013-07-02 03:15:00 PM  

Luse: 1. Put snakes on plane: WildManBand: http://www.exvegans.com/

Those (vegan) people are crazy!

I'm going to upload some snarky submissions and ruin their fun if the content is not monitored.

Veganism applies to humans, and doesn't involve telling anyone to kill themselves. Whoever is running that site is apparently already having some fun, but it's got nothing to do with actual vegans.

Careful. I don't think you are vegan enough. Just might make the list.


It's messed up that the site seeks to bestow negative energy on others for their quitting veganism. Maybe it's not fair to call all vegans crazy, but the person running that site certainly is. Sorry for placing negative energy on the other nice vegan people. That website does more damage for vegans than good.
 
2013-07-02 03:16:07 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: noitsnot: American Dental Association?
Americans with Disabilities Act?
American Diabetes Association?

American Dietetic Association. Context and all...

I failed to link it above, but here's the endorsement again. Search for "ADA vegan" if it's not coming up.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/705344


... or try  Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics because of the name change.
 
2013-07-02 03:17:10 PM  

George Babbitt: noitsnot:

They changed their name to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics in 2012.

http://www.eatright.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dietetic_Association

What does L. Ron Hubbard have to do with this?


The need to control the actions of others is very similar.
 
2013-07-02 03:19:18 PM  

StaleCoffee: I feel like I failed to protect him and no, he doesn't remember, but it was done not for health reasons but both insurance and traditional reasons.


You did fail to protect him, but I sincerely respect that you realize and admit it. It takes a very big person to do that, and I salute you.
 
2013-07-02 03:20:03 PM  

noitsnot: The need to control the actions of others is very similar.


How are they controlling the actions of others, again? Are they marching to your table with their evil labcoats of oppression and forcing you to eat tofu?

No? Then quiet. They release dietary and nutrition guidelines based on evidence and guidance from scientific studies. Like everything else, you have the final say whether you want to follow them or not.

Medicare is a 527 billion dollar a year sink-hole based on personal freedom to disregard experts and the consequences there of.
 
2013-07-02 03:23:42 PM  
The idea of feeding a cat or dog vegan is stupid. So is the idea of feeding them a healthy diet. They are designed to eat whatever the hell they can get their teeth into. If you want to feed them "as nature intended", be prepared to be grossed out. Think whole live rodents and a fair bit of carrion. Yum!

Personally I feed pets whatever standard pet food agrees with them and is recommended by my vet and don't give it a second thought.
 
2013-07-02 03:23:43 PM  

Millennium: YixilTesiphon: Pray 4 Mojo: nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

Had an acquaintance many moons ago that was a "Raw Foodist"... whatever the fark that is. He had two Dobermans that he fed oranges and avocados and shiat. Asshole. The dogs were always way too skinny and pretty listless.

/We snuck them cans of Alpo or Pedigree at every opportunity.

Beef isn't raw food?

Raw beef is raw food, but it doesn't play well with the human digestive and immune systems. Trying to apply that to dogs is just plain psychotic, though: canines are well-adapted for eating raw meat.


That's just stupidity. The human digestive and immune systems play just fine with raw beef.
 
2013-07-02 03:24:31 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: Coronach: blah blah blah

An anecdote by some random Farker doesn't make for evidence. If you think vegan diets are unfit for children, become a RD and then convince the ADA with peer reviewed studies. Otherwise, you're just spewing unsubstantiated nonsense.

Oh, and yeah, humans are omnivores. Good job pointing that out.


You're quite right. My spewings are unsubstantiated. What I've put forth has never, ever been witnessed by any by an RD, a pediatrician, or any dietary clinician. Neither has anything of the like ever been submitted to a peer reviewed journal nor has it been scrutinized by the dietary health community.

Also:
noitsnot:

An anecdote by some random Farker doesn't make for evidence. If you think vegan diets are unfit for children, become a RD and then convince the ADA with peer reviewed studies. Otherwise, you're just spewing unsubstantiated nonsense.

Oh, and yeah, humans are omnivores. Good job pointing that out.

American Dental Association?
Americans with Disabilities Act?
American Diabetes Association?


/got my GED in dietetics
 
2013-07-02 03:27:24 PM  

Magorn: That's because they have nothing to do with one another. However If you had supplemented your vitamin D, the low carb diet would have worked so much better


Or if he'd had more oily fish/whale blubber in there, the sources of vitamin D for the Inuit 9-10 months a year.
 
2013-07-02 03:31:36 PM  
You would think that vegan lifestyle not allowing you to produce enough breastmilk would scream how stupid your diet is while your child dies.
 
2013-07-02 03:37:36 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: PsiChick: Nana's Vibrator: I sort of understand the concept and the spirit of vegans, but why work around the natural process of breast feeding if you don't HAVE to?  Human bodies evolved over many tens of thousands of years to do something that amazing.  What these vegans are doing is unnatural and potentially harmful.  And really, if you're that much of a disciplined vegan trying to live a certain way, probably the most natural and vegan thing you can do is to just let that little meat-needing sucker die.

Or you could RTFA and find out that vegans are a-ok with breastfeeding, since the mother is capable of consenting to give her milk to her child.

Is it okay for vegans to eat animals that died of natural causes?


You'd have to define 'natural causes'. Being killed by a predator is a fairly natural and common way for the tastiest animals to die.
I consider myself a predator of deer, turkeys, and waterfowl.
Therefore, those tasty animals in my freezer died of natural causes.
 
2013-07-02 03:39:24 PM  
hardinparamedic: noitsnot: The need to control the actions of others is very similar.

How are they controlling the actions of others, again? Are they marching to your table with their evil labcoats of oppression and forcing you to eat tofu?

No? Then quiet. They release dietary and nutrition guidelines based on evidence and guidance from scientific studies. Like everything else, you have the final say whether you want to follow them or not.


Yeah - I meant vegans, not the AND/ADA, and only the militant vegans at that.  But a bunch of extra explanation would have killed the joke.

Medicare is a 527 billion dollar a year sink-hole based on personal freedom to disregard experts and the consequences there of.

Fun that you threw in some crazy talk at the end, though.  So, when you retire, you're going to pay cash for all your medical expenses then? Because Medicare is just welfare queens mooching?

P.S. How is there are hard math to being a dietician?  You have to do some freshman statistics?
 
2013-07-02 03:43:18 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: noitsnot: 1. Put snakes on plane: Pray 4 Mojo: s it okay for vegans to eat animals that died of natural causes?

Would you eat a human leg you found in a dumpster? If you think that's okay, sure go for it.

OMG! Wow! Yes, making use of meat that would otherwise go to waste - same as cannibalism!

Please, continue...

/such awesome kookdom

So, you wouldn't kill and eat a human, and also wouldn't eat one you just found dead. I wouldn't kill and eat another animal, or eat one I just found dead. How remarkable!


That's cause humans taste gross... and killing and eating them is illegal.

/Yeah yeah... "Meat is murder too!"
//You're what 23...24?
 
2013-07-02 03:45:32 PM  

George Babbitt: noitsnot:

They changed their name to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics in 2012.

http://www.eatright.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dietetic_Association

What does L. Ron Hubbard have to do with this?


I read this post and thought "Wha??" and then just went on. A couple of minutes later I smacked my forehead and said "Dianetics!" I felt like real maroon.


My co-workers looked at me funny. I didn't explain. Let 'em wonder.
 
2013-07-02 03:46:12 PM  

Coronach: You're quite right. My spewings are unsubstantiated. What I've put forth has never, ever been witnessed by any by an RD, a pediatrician, or any dietary clinician. Neither has anything of the like ever been submitted to a peer reviewed journal nor has it been scrutinized by the dietary health community.


Well, okay then.
 
2013-07-02 03:51:57 PM  
i172.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-02 03:53:51 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: That's cause humans taste gross... and killing and eating them is illegal.


Do you know this from personal experience?
 
2013-07-02 03:54:21 PM  
give me doughnuts:

I felt like real maroon.

Almonds or coconut?
 
2013-07-02 03:54:26 PM  

noitsnot: Fun that you threw in some crazy talk at the end, though.  So, when you retire, you're going to pay cash for all your medical expenses then? Because Medicare is just welfare queens mooching?


Acutally, it's not crazy talk. It's documented fact that the majority of cost to medicare is from preventable diseases.

And the right-wing concept of "Welfare Queens" have nothing to do with the fact that most of medicare expenditures in the United States are for a very small, very select group of diseases, namely COPD/Emphysema (Completely preventable in 99% of patients who have it - caused by cigarette smoking, the other 1% have an inborn protein deficiency), Heart Disease and Congestive Heart Failure (Again, Cigarette Smoking and diet), and Type II Diabetes.

Add in the fact that people languish for years (decades) in nursing homes, kept alive by feeding tubes and ventilators, when they have no quality of life and no hope for recovery rather than engaging families in end of life and hospice care planning that is not only far more humane for the victim of a disease like alzheimers, but also better for the families and society at large, and there is a pretty huge flaw in the entire system.

But no. Personal freedoms and all. Smoke up. Eat that cheeseburger. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

noitsnot: P.S. How is there are hard math to being a dietician?  You have to do some freshman statistics?


Calculation of TPN and Lipid composition is freshman statistics, apparently.
 
2013-07-02 04:08:26 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: 1. Put snakes on plane: noitsnot: 1. Put snakes on plane: Pray 4 Mojo: s it okay for vegans to eat animals that died of natural causes?

Would you eat a human leg you found in a dumpster? If you think that's okay, sure go for it.

OMG! Wow! Yes, making use of meat that would otherwise go to waste - same as cannibalism!

Please, continue...

/such awesome kookdom

So, you wouldn't kill and eat a human, and also wouldn't eat one you just found dead. I wouldn't kill and eat another animal, or eat one I just found dead. How remarkable!

That's cause humans taste gross... and killing and eating them is illegal.

/Yeah yeah... "Meat is murder too!"
//You're what 23...24?


Invoking cannibalism is just a cheesy sensationalist gambit.  The idea is that for a vegan, eating fried chicken is just as abhorrent as it would be for you to eat a baby.  Which I find very doubtful.  Sure, I'm not a vegan, so I can't claim to know their feelings - but Occam's Razor tells me it's just hyperbole, especially since I doubt he knows what it feels like to be a cannibal.

Certainly, it is bad to harm other living things (or at least I feel that way).  However, there is a continuum at work here.    It's not just "people and animals = evil to harm, all else = ok to harm".  I make the ordering as follows: Human*, mammal, bird, fish, insect, tree**, plant, (***).

* Many humans I can't stand, so this is iffy
** I like trees better than bugs, so this is also iffy
*** Micro-organisms just seem like machines, I can't really get worked up about them (hence omitted)

To cultivate vegetables and grains, so that vegetarian and vegan lifestyles can be led - this has inflicted tremendous harm on the animal kingdom (and continues to do so).  You can't have all that farming, without booting out all the animals that used to live there, and clear-cutting their habitat so you can have farm fields.
 
2013-07-02 04:11:16 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: 1. Put snakes on plane: noitsnot: 1. Put snakes on plane: Pray 4 Mojo: s it okay for vegans to eat animals that died of natural causes?

Would you eat a human leg you found in a dumpster? If you think that's okay, sure go for it.

OMG! Wow! Yes, making use of meat that would otherwise go to waste - same as cannibalism!

Please, continue...

/such awesome kookdom

So, you wouldn't kill and eat a human, and also wouldn't eat one you just found dead. I wouldn't kill and eat another animal, or eat one I just found dead. How remarkable!

That's cause humans taste gross... and killing and eating them is illegal.

/Yeah yeah... "Meat is murder too!"
//You're what 23...24?



From all reports (4th or 5th hand) that I've seen, human is basically equivalent to pork.  When you kill a pig, you have to bleed it right away or the meat tastes foul.  Now I'm making a conjecture based on rumor and second hand knowlege, but I'm going to guess you didn't bleed your kill right away and it spoiled your meat.

/my neighbor hunts wild pig, he confirmed the "bleed it immediately" one hunt
 
2013-07-02 04:13:11 PM  
noitsnot:
To cultivate vegetables and grains, so that vegetarian and vegan lifestyles can be led - this has inflicted tremendous harm on the animal kingdom (and continues to do so).  You can't have all that farming, without booting out all the animals that used to live there, and clear-cutting their habitat so you can have farm fields.

I've read that a great majority of the Amazon forest was farmland when the Meso-Americans were at the height of their influence upon the land.
 
2013-07-02 04:13:45 PM  

You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll?  It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals


So did that ship sail or what?

Carry on troll.
 
2013-07-02 04:14:55 PM  

mike_d85: From all reports (4th or 5th hand) that I've seen, human is basically equivalent to pork. When you kill a pig, you have to bleed it right away or the meat tastes foul. Now I'm making a conjecture based on rumor and second hand knowlege, but I'm going to guess you didn't bleed your kill right away and it spoiled your meat.


That's actually what happened. I humped her corpse a few times before I got hungry.
 
2013-07-02 04:15:46 PM  

legion_of_doo: You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll?  It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

I'd guess that ship has already sailed, anyway.


Yep, it sailed.

It's easy to shiat on people from across the internet but my kids are doing fine. They even play outside and build forts in the woods. Amazing.
 
2013-07-02 04:16:04 PM  

StaleCoffee: You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll?  It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

So did that ship sail or what?

Carry on troll.


How did his kids attend school? Mine were required to have all their vaccinations, for their age, before the first day.
 
2013-07-02 04:17:18 PM  

1. Put snakes on plane: noitsnot: American Dental Association?
Americans with Disabilities Act?
American Diabetes Association?

American Dietetic Association. Context and all...

I failed to link it above, but here's the endorsement again. Search for "ADA vegan" if it's not coming up.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/705344


Can't read it.  Paywall.
 
2013-07-02 04:18:00 PM  

hardinparamedic: noitsnot: Fun that you threw in some crazy talk at the end, though.  So, when you retire, you're going to pay cash for all your medical expenses then? Because Medicare is just welfare queens mooching?

Acutally, it's not crazy talk. It's documented fact that the majority of cost to medicare is from preventable diseases.

And the right-wing concept of "Welfare Queens" have nothing to do with the fact that most of medicare expenditures in the United States are for a very small, very select group of diseases, namely COPD/Emphysema (Completely preventable in 99% of patients who have it - caused by cigarette smoking, the other 1% have an inborn protein deficiency), Heart Disease and Congestive Heart Failure (Again, Cigarette Smoking and diet), and Type II Diabetes.

Add in the fact that people languish for years (decades) in nursing homes, kept alive by feeding tubes and ventilators, when they have no quality of life and no hope for recovery rather than engaging families in end of life and hospice care planning that is not only far more humane for the victim of a disease like alzheimers, but also better for the families and society at large, and there is a pretty huge flaw in the entire system.

But no. Personal freedoms and all. Smoke up. Eat that cheeseburger. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.


That's nothing to do with Medicare.  Regular insurance covers it, so Medicare does too.  We all pay for it via higher insurance premiums as well as higher taxes.

noitsnot: P.S. How is there are hard math to being a dietician?  You have to do some freshman statistics?

Calculation of TPN and Lipid composition is freshman statistics, apparently.


I'm sorry, but there's no math in that at all.  It's just a bunch of instructions to follow.  Flowcharts are just a way to graphically express instructions.  You probably have to look some stuff up in some tables in some books - but nobody is doing any math there.
 
2013-07-02 04:20:40 PM  

JeffKochosky: Diogenes: theorellior: gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

I have an acquaintance who named her son "Bear". I don't quite get the logic, but whatevs. So far I've resisted the urge to say things like, "Feeling cranky and fussy? Better drink my own piss!"

Reminds me of a punchline for a joke.  I forget the full flow of the joke narrative but it essentially had to do with Indian women competing to have the strongest son with the chief by conceiving on rugs made of animal hides.  Bear was the best because, "The son of the squa on the one hide is equal to the sons of the squas on the other two hides."

I'm gonna have to try and track that one down - I love stories with a PUNch line. Here are a few of my favorites:

"Better Nate than lever"

"People who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones"

"If the foo shiats, wear it"

Of course, my favorite bad story joke isn't even a pun - it's the story of The 99 Steps, and on a good day, I can spend over 20 minutes telling the story... just to end with the punch line "Corn flakes are more popular than scrambled eggs."

/I usually start running shortly after that.


Have you heard the one about "Hobbin and Nobbin?"
/my fav
 
2013-07-02 04:21:02 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: mike_d85: From all reports (4th or 5th hand) that I've seen, human is basically equivalent to pork. When you kill a pig, you have to bleed it right away or the meat tastes foul. Now I'm making a conjecture based on rumor and second hand knowlege, but I'm going to guess you didn't bleed your kill right away and it spoiled your meat.

That's actually what happened. I humped her corpse a few times before I got hungry.


That's normal. Why do you think they call it "porking"?
 
2013-07-02 04:21:19 PM  

meat0918: 1. Put snakes on plane: noitsnot: American Dental Association?
Americans with Disabilities Act?
American Diabetes Association?

American Dietetic Association. Context and all...

I failed to link it above, but here's the endorsement again. Search for "ADA vegan" if it's not coming up.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/705344

Can't read it.  Paywall.


Never mind, saw the second links.

At least this is address as a myth
"Myth #5: Just because it is vegetarian it is healthy."
 
2013-07-02 04:29:05 PM  

George Babbitt: StaleCoffee: You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll?  It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

So did that ship sail or what?

Carry on troll.

How did his kids attend school? Mine were required to have all their vaccinations, for their age, before the first day.


My kids were the ones with vax exemptions. You sign a piece of paper that says "We wish to exempt our children from vaccines" and then you don't hear about it again unless a new nurse is hired and loses the paperwork.
 
2013-07-02 04:29:43 PM  

noitsnot: That's nothing to do with Medicare.  Regular insurance covers it, so Medicare does too.  We all pay for it via higher insurance premiums as well as higher taxes.


Around 300 Billion Dollars says it has a lot to do with medicare. The fact that regular insurance "covers" it is irrelevant. The relevant fact is that it's very preventable. Unfortunately, right-wing shills for tobacco companies like to tout "personal freedoms" with none of the responsibility it entails.
 
2013-07-02 04:33:53 PM  

StaleCoffee: My kids were the ones with vax exemptions. You sign a piece of paper that says "We wish to exempt our children from vaccines" and then you don't hear about it again unless a new nurse is hired and loses the paperwork.


The only exemption should be that your kids have an allergy to the vaccine or vaccine component, or have a legitimate medical reason not to be vaccinated.

Your original argument was based on their "immune system time to develop", ignoring the fact that the reason vaccinations are done at that age are so that children do not die of the diseases that target them at that age. Or the fact that their immune system didn't need that time to develop, period.
 
2013-07-02 04:36:20 PM  

StaleCoffee: George Babbitt: StaleCoffee: You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll?  It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

So did that ship sail or what?

Carry on troll.

How did his kids attend school? Mine were required to have all their vaccinations, for their age, before the first day.

My kids were the ones with vax exemptions. You sign a piece of paper that says "We wish to exempt our children from vaccines" and then you don't hear about it again unless a new nurse is hired and loses the paperwork.


You're ignorant and you're farking up the world for the rest of our children.
 
2013-07-02 04:38:21 PM  

hardinparamedic: noitsnot: That's nothing to do with Medicare.  Regular insurance covers it, so Medicare does too.  We all pay for it via higher insurance premiums as well as higher taxes.

Around 300 Billion Dollars says it has a lot to do with medicare. The fact that regular insurance "covers" it is irrelevant. The relevant fact is that it's very preventable. Unfortunately, right-wing shills for tobacco companies like to tout "personal freedoms" with none of the responsibility it entails.


Well, good luck trying to get medical costs that stem from poor choices eliminated from coverage.  Keep us up to speed on how that goes.
 
2013-07-02 04:53:18 PM  

hardinparamedic: StaleCoffee: My kids were the ones with vax exemptions. You sign a piece of paper that says "We wish to exempt our children from vaccines" and then you don't hear about it again unless a new nurse is hired and loses the paperwork.

The only exemption should be that your kids have an allergy to the vaccine or vaccine component, or have a legitimate medical reason not to be vaccinated.

Your original argument was based on their "immune system time to develop", ignoring the fact that the reason vaccinations are done at that age are so that children do not die of the diseases that target them at that age. Or the fact that their immune system didn't need that time to develop, period.


No, we didn't ignore that. We felt more comfortable with the Hep vaxes on the tail end of the CDC scheduling, but that requires an exemption. Feel free to assume I'm ignorant and an anti-vaxer though, everyone else is.
 
2013-07-02 04:54:38 PM  

YixilTesiphon: StaleCoffee: George Babbitt: StaleCoffee: You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll?  It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

So did that ship sail or what?

Carry on troll.

How did his kids attend school? Mine were required to have all their vaccinations, for their age, before the first day.

My kids were the ones with vax exemptions. You sign a piece of paper that says "We wish to exempt our children from vaccines" and then you don't hear about it again unless a new nurse is hired and loses the paperwork.

You're ignorant and you're farking up the world for the rest of our children.


If your kids die because of Hep B that's not likely to be my fault, but doing some reading yourself is probably a little too much effort compared to throwing the word ignorant around I suppose.
 
2013-07-02 04:55:47 PM  

StaleCoffee: legion_of_doo: You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll?  It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

I'd guess that ship has already sailed, anyway.

Yep, it sailed.

It's easy to shiat on people from across the internet but my kids are doing fine. They even play outside and build forts in the woods. Amazing.


Good for you, and them.

Not enough parents let kids be kids. Not enough digging in the dirt, wading in creeks, riding bikes, and climbing trees.
Too much regimentation of time and activities.
They turn being a kid into a job.

/onion, belt, lawn, off
 
2013-07-02 05:01:07 PM  
Gee... if your body isn't able to produce enough breast milk, it's probably starved for nutrients. I wonder which food groups a vegan diet could possibly be ignoring... hmm....

/was raised vegetarian
//had to convert to an animal meat diet after getting very sick
///it was a VEGAN dietician who had me go on the meat diet.
////meat rocks!  Tastes awesome.  Good for the body too... in moderation, of course, as everything in life.
 
2013-07-02 05:06:50 PM  

noitsnot: The idea is that for a vegan, eating fried chicken is just as abhorrent as it would be for you to eat a baby. Which I find very doubtful. Sure, I'm not a vegan, so I can't claim to know their feelings


Anyone who thinks that is a crazy person, vegan or not.  I don't even mind if people eat meat, to be totally honest.  What you do with your body is none of my concern.  If you want to make a sandwich entirely out of steak with steak for bread and held together with cheese and bacon, that's your choice.

Some people can't eat a vegan diet.  Some people can't or won't eat a omnivore diet.  A lot of vegans are indeed holier-than-thou about their diet, and it sucks.  It makes everyone look bad but it's outside the authourity of the Vegan Police.

Factory farmed meat, which is what 99% of you are eating, is a biological and regulatory nightmare.  Ethics aside, it's what made me cut out meat from my diet 13 years ago.  I noticed a decline in the quality of meat I was getting and then read a news snippet about how they'd cut back the regulations on what's considered "safe for human consumption".  I haven't eaten meat since.  I cut out the eggs and dairy at the beginning of 2012.

Sorry I left the thread, I was teaching a spin class at lunchtime.  You know, with my super-weak constitution and frail body.
 
2013-07-02 05:12:00 PM  

Wangiss: machoprogrammer: theMagni: nocturnal001: y bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

My dog eats meat.  I don't.  I'm not an animal.  I can make choices that a dog can't.


Magorn: Attention Vegan Women: producing breat milk is one of the basic functions of a female human body. when a woman's body stops producing enough of it, it is a clear sign something is VERY VERY wrong. Usually only happens when the woman is STARVING to death.

Some women just don't make milk.  It doesn't matter what their diet is.  My ex produced plenty.  One of her friends (on an omnivore diet) couldn't make a drop, even with the industrial pump they have at the hospital.


Brittabot: But you CANNOT do that shiat to your kids! Children cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Vegetarian? Probably ok, but not vegan. They simply will not get the nutrients they need to develop properly physically or mentally.

What nutrients would they be missing?  My kids have been in the 99th percentile for mental and physical development since they were born.  Based on what you're posting, my nine-year-old can read better than you.

Iron, vitamin b12, zinc, among many others

Vegetarian is fine, but vegan lacks many nutrients

I'm not vegan, but my garden calls bullshiat on your Iron and zinc deficiency claims.


Do spinach and kale have enough iron to make up for red meat? Well, and red beans as well, I guess.

Zinc, I'm not sure about.
 
2013-07-02 05:12:15 PM  
nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?


Dogs are scavangers they could live off of soyfood. Cats are more problematic they are purely meat eaters.

Or maybe they just feed them meat and respect their life choices  which seems to be a challenge for most of FARK.
 
2013-07-02 05:28:17 PM  
I find that vegans' hearts are in the right place but they are generally misguided (as are most people in industrialized countries) about the methods and ethics of food production due to propaganda.

Let me start by saying that factory farming is horrible, it is destructive, disgusting, cruel, and respects neither the dignity of people nor of animals.  The problem is that, in America at least, just as much plant biomass is factory farmed as animal biomass.  Probably more.

Now, we can quibble about factory farming being worse when it comes to animals than to plants (I would agree), but the difference in degree of sustainability and destruction between factory farming plants and animals is small compared the gulf between factory farming anything and not factory farming at all.

The truth is, widespread veganism is possible only with industrial farming, which destroys untold swaths of diverse land, annihilates ecosystems (including all the animals that live there) and requires an obscenely large input of oil for artificial fertilizer and brute force mechanical work.  It is neither better nor more sustainable that NON-factory farming food productions methods that REQUIRE animal input/output in order to achieve the necessary per land productivity levels to feed current and future populations.

Sustainable and environmentally friendly food can only be grown by cleverly orchestrating the nutrient cycling the occurs in nature between plants and animals.  They cannot be separated, plants live with and eat animals just as animals live with and eat plants.

We also should eat MORE beef (for example) than we do now as a % of meat consumption.  It doesn't have to be beef, just about any large grazer will do.  There is simply nothing more efficient than a runiment for converting sunlight into human nutrition through grass.  Pigs and Chickens should not make up the bulk of our diet, they are traditionally the farm's clean-up crew and a rare treat.

No one should mistreat animals, and doing so is indefensible, but in order for one organism to live, others must die.  This is an inescapable facet of the universe.  One day we will die to feed the plants, and then they will feed animals and so on.
 
2013-07-02 05:40:35 PM  

StaleCoffee: Feel free to assume I'm ignorant and an anti-vaxer though, everyone else is.


You've given everyone the ammunition to do both when you talk about delaying the vaccination schedule to "give his immune system time to develop". Immunity doesn't work like that.

StaleCoffee: If your kids die because of Hep B that's not likely to be my fault, but doing some reading yourself is probably a little too much effort compared to throwing the word ignorant around I suppose.


No, but it's quite possible in the United States for YOUR kids to die of Hepatitis B infection thanks to you or mom. That's why we vaccinate them. And the fact it does no measurable harm to the kid.

noitsnot: Well, good luck trying to get medical costs that stem from poor choices eliminated from coverage.  Keep us up to speed on how that goes.


I equally wish you luck with your crippling lack of adult reading comprehension. There is no need to suffer in silence, and many community colleges offer free adult remedial reading classes. I'd personally start with learning the definition of the word "prevent", and going from there.
 
2013-07-02 05:45:11 PM  

StaleCoffee: YixilTesiphon: StaleCoffee: George Babbitt: StaleCoffee: You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll?  It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

So did that ship sail or what?

Carry on troll.

How did his kids attend school? Mine were required to have all their vaccinations, for their age, before the first day.

My kids were the ones with vax exemptions. You sign a piece of paper that says "We wish to exempt our children from vaccines" and then you don't hear about it again unless a new nurse is hired and loses the paperwork.

You're ignorant and you're farking up the world for the rest of our children.

If your kids die because of Hep B that's not likely to be my fault, but doing some reading yourself is probably a little too much effort compared to throwing the word ignorant around I suppose.


Hep B was kind of a lame one to pick unless your kids hang around with vagrants and junkies.
 
2013-07-02 06:06:12 PM  

give me doughnuts: StaleCoffee: legion_of_doo: You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll?  It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

I'd guess that ship has already sailed, anyway.

Yep, it sailed.

It's easy to shiat on people from across the internet but my kids are doing fine. They even play outside and build forts in the woods. Amazing.

Good for you, and them.

Not enough parents let kids be kids. Not enough digging in the dirt, wading in creeks, riding bikes, and climbing trees.
Too much regimentation of time and activities.
They turn being a kid into a job.

/onion, belt, lawn, off


No shiat.

We've had parents show up with their kids to the school garden one time, then they never return.  The complaint?

They thought it was more structured.  Unspoken was they did the work, not the elementary school age children.

It's garden time.  Let them explored the bugs and slugs and centipedes and snails and all the fun stuff.
 
2013-07-02 06:13:47 PM  
hardinparamedic:

noitsnot: Well, good luck trying to get medical costs that stem from poor choices eliminated from coverage.  Keep us up to speed on how that goes.

I equally wish you luck with your crippling lack of adult reading comprehension. There is no need to suffer in silence, and many community colleges offer free adult remedial reading classes. I'd personally start with learning the definition of the word "prevent", and going from there.


Well, spell out what your beef against medicare is then, because I can't understand what you mean.
 
2013-07-02 06:36:33 PM  

noitsnot: hardinparamedic:

noitsnot: Well, good luck trying to get medical costs that stem from poor choices eliminated from coverage.  Keep us up to speed on how that goes.

I equally wish you luck with your crippling lack of adult reading comprehension. There is no need to suffer in silence, and many community colleges offer free adult remedial reading classes. I'd personally start with learning the definition of the word "prevent", and going from there.

Well, spell out what your beef against medicare is then, because I can't understand what you mean.


He means most people in the hospital are there because of poor choices, like obesity, smoking and/or driving a car/motorcycle without seat belts/helmets.

And that America is not good about dealing with death. We keep people alive for months (using technologies that cause all kinds of additional health issues, like ventilators) instead of acknowledging that there is no more that can be done for them and just let them go in peace.

Just today I read a story about long-term care insurance. So many people have it and the costs of long-term care are so gigantic, insurance companies are now jacking up premiums astronomically (like 80%) on existing customers or telling them to accept less coverage in exchange for slightly less astronomical increases (45%).
 
2013-07-02 06:38:10 PM  

Smelly Pirate Hooker: noitsnot: hardinparamedic:

noitsnot: Well, good luck trying to get medical costs that stem from poor choices eliminated from coverage.  Keep us up to speed on how that goes.

I equally wish you luck with your crippling lack of adult reading comprehension. There is no need to suffer in silence, and many community colleges offer free adult remedial reading classes. I'd personally start with learning the definition of the word "prevent", and going from there.

Well, spell out what your beef against medicare is then, because I can't understand what you mean.

He means most people in the hospital are there because of poor choices, like obesity, smoking and/or driving a car/motorcycle without seat belts/helmets.

And that America is not good about dealing with death. We keep people alive for months (using technologies that cause all kinds of additional health issues, like ventilators) instead of acknowledging that there is no more that can be done for them and just let them go in peace.

Just today I read a story about long-term care insurance. So many people have it and the costs of long-term care are so gigantic, insurance companies are now jacking up premiums astronomically (like 80%) on existing customers or telling them to accept less coverage in exchange for slightly less astronomical increases (45%).


Someone gets it. Thank you.
 
2013-07-02 06:47:42 PM  

hardinparamedic: Smelly Pirate Hooker: noitsnot: hardinparamedic:

noitsnot: Well, good luck trying to get medical costs that stem from poor choices eliminated from coverage.  Keep us up to speed on how that goes.

I equally wish you luck with your crippling lack of adult reading comprehension. There is no need to suffer in silence, and many community colleges offer free adult remedial reading classes. I'd personally start with learning the definition of the word "prevent", and going from there.

Well, spell out what your beef against medicare is then, because I can't understand what you mean.

He means most people in the hospital are there because of poor choices, like obesity, smoking and/or driving a car/motorcycle without seat belts/helmets.

And that America is not good about dealing with death. We keep people alive for months (using technologies that cause all kinds of additional health issues, like ventilators) instead of acknowledging that there is no more that can be done for them and just let them go in peace.

Just today I read a story about long-term care insurance. So many people have it and the costs of long-term care are so gigantic, insurance companies are now jacking up premiums astronomically (like 80%) on existing customers or telling them to accept less coverage in exchange for slightly less astronomical increases (45%).

Someone gets it. Thank you.


With the understanding that I'm not saying don't treat people or let gramma die because she's costing money.

Just sayin', Americans are overall in shiatty-ass health because U.S. corporations sell unhealthy choices because selling excess and instant gratification always makes more money than telling people NOT to eat tacos at 2 AM. And insurance companies certainly don't care if people are in bad health, as long as they're getting their fat premiums.
 
2013-07-02 06:56:40 PM  

Smelly Pirate Hooker: With the understanding that I'm not saying don't treat people or let gramma die because she's costing money.


No, I'm not saying that either. But what I am saying is that there comes a point when there is no hope for recovery, and no quality of life other than what's being pumped into you through a rubber straw, when maybe it's not as cruel, or as costly to let nature do what it wanted to.
 
2013-07-02 07:04:08 PM  

hardinparamedic: Smelly Pirate Hooker: With the understanding that I'm not saying don't treat people or let gramma die because she's costing money.

No, I'm not saying that either. But what I am saying is that there comes a point when there is no hope for recovery, and no quality of life other than what's being pumped into you through a rubber straw, when maybe it's not as cruel, or as costly to let nature do what it wanted to.


how monstrous!!!1!1!!1!
 
2013-07-02 07:04:36 PM  

hardinparamedic: Smelly Pirate Hooker: noitsnot: hardinparamedic:

noitsnot: Well, good luck trying to get medical costs that stem from poor choices eliminated from coverage.  Keep us up to speed on how that goes.

I equally wish you luck with your crippling lack of adult reading comprehension. There is no need to suffer in silence, and many community colleges offer free adult remedial reading classes. I'd personally start with learning the definition of the word "prevent", and going from there.

Well, spell out what your beef against medicare is then, because I can't understand what you mean.

He means most people in the hospital are there because of poor choices, like obesity, smoking and/or driving a car/motorcycle without seat belts/helmets.

And that America is not good about dealing with death. We keep people alive for months (using technologies that cause all kinds of additional health issues, like ventilators) instead of acknowledging that there is no more that can be done for them and just let them go in peace.

Just today I read a story about long-term care insurance. So many people have it and the costs of long-term care are so gigantic, insurance companies are now jacking up premiums astronomically (like 80%) on existing customers or telling them to accept less coverage in exchange for slightly less astronomical increases (45%).

Someone gets it. Thank you.


...  aaaannnnd that has what to do with Medicare?   Because your original puzzling outburst was against Medicare:

"Medicare is a 527 billion dollar a year sink-hole based on personal freedom to disregard experts and the consequences there of. "

So, I understand what Mr./Ms. Hooker apparently psychically read out of your brain, but I still don't understand what point you are trying to make about Medicare specifically.
 
2013-07-02 07:04:52 PM  
I could be wrong, but I don't think selling breast milk is legal in all states.
 
2013-07-02 07:28:41 PM  

fusillade762: I could be wrong, but I don't think selling breast milk is legal in all states.


That's why you got to get that Cambodian stuff.

/You make my day-ay!
 
2013-07-02 07:32:49 PM  
noitsnot:

So, I understand what Mr./Ms. Hooker apparently psychically read out of your brain, but I still don't understand what point you are trying to make about Medicare specifically.

That Medicare (and Medicaid too) costs so much because Americans are in bad shape. Not that hard to figure out. Not sure why it popped up in a breastfeeding thread, but it's more interesting than what usually happens in a breastfeeding thread, so I went with it.

And that's MISS Smelly Pirate Hooker to you.
 
2013-07-02 09:12:10 PM  

Jument: The idea of feeding a cat or dog vegan is stupid. So is the idea of feeding them a healthy diet. They are designed to eat whatever the hell they can get their teeth into. If you want to feed them "as nature intended", be prepared to be grossed out. Think whole live rodents and a fair bit of carrion. Yum!

Personally I feed pets whatever standard pet food agrees with them and is recommended by my vet and don't give it a second thought.


I don't think the idea of feeding a cat or dog a healthy diet is crazy. For cats and dogs, whole rats, whole rabbits, whole birds *are* a healthy diet. There are people who feed their cats whole rats and mice. I feed my dog all parts of chicken other than feathers, head, and guts (because that is how whole chickens are sold at the store...). I know people who go out of their way to buy green beef tripe (which would be the stomach of a cow with the contents, not cooked in any way) for their dog. Certainly not for everyone, which is why they make commercial dry/wet pet food.
 
2013-07-02 09:37:13 PM  
www.thedailyrage.com
 
2013-07-02 09:39:00 PM  
4.bp.blogspot.com
Opportunistic carnivore.
 
2013-07-02 11:57:33 PM  
Has no one told these vegan mothers about fenugreek?

http://www.breastfeedingonline.com/fenugreek.shtml#sthash.bau9bGIz.d pb s

The only downside is that your bodily fluids (sweat, urine, etc) end up smelling like maple syrup. You get tired of being asked who made pancakes.
 
2013-07-03 08:27:28 AM  

StaleCoffee: YixilTesiphon: StaleCoffee: George Babbitt: StaleCoffee: You're the jerk... jerk: StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time

Stupid or troll?  It is obvious you did not investigate this issue by looking at pier reviewed journals

So did that ship sail or what?

Carry on troll.

How did his kids attend school? Mine were required to have all their vaccinations, for their age, before the first day.

My kids were the ones with vax exemptions. You sign a piece of paper that says "We wish to exempt our children from vaccines" and then you don't hear about it again unless a new nurse is hired and loses the paperwork.

You're ignorant and you're farking up the world for the rest of our children.

If your kids die because of Hep B that's not likely to be my fault, but doing some reading yourself is probably a little too much effort compared to throwing the word ignorant around I suppose.


Yes, but if my baby dies from whooping cough before s/he (finding out on Friday, hopefully) can be vaccinated, that IS a situation it sounds like you've contributed to.

I think it's your choice whether or not to vaccinate your kids. I just don't want my kids going to daycares, doctor's offices, or schools that your kids are at if you don't.
 
2013-07-03 12:48:47 PM  

Smelly Pirate Hooker: noitsnot:

So, I understand what Mr./Ms. Hooker apparently psychically read out of your brain, but I still don't understand what point you are trying to make about Medicare specifically.

That Medicare (and Medicaid too) costs so much because Americans are in bad shape. Not that hard to figure out. Not sure why it popped up in a breastfeeding thread, but it's more interesting than what usually happens in a breastfeeding thread, so I went with it.

And that's MISS Smelly Pirate Hooker to you.


You're putting words in Hardinparamedic's mouth.  Sure, he grabbed for the life preserver you threw him, but I would much rather hear his thoughts from him.

I'm not disputing the idea that people smoke and get fat and thereby cost the rest of us money when treated through public welfare programs (or by any other means).

What I wanted to know was - Why, in a thread about veganism, did Hardinparamedic suddenly throw in some rant about Medicare and emphysema and 527 billion dollars and euthanasia for old people and tobacco companies?

Was he trying to imply that people who live unhealthy lifestyles should get less benefit from Medicare?  I don't know - he won't tell me.
 
2013-07-03 02:44:23 PM  

tuna fingers: I do not agree with this sentiment at all. Doctors and hospitals have their own agendas that may not coincide with the patient's needs. For instance, did you try to have a natural (drug-free) birth?

We have a 1 year old, and every couple in our Bradley class that delivered in a hospital did not get the desired drug-free birth. Zero for nine.

We had a home birth to avoid that.


While I agree that doctors and hospitals have their own agenda, and that one has to use their own intelligence when being treated, I understand why most people want to go to a hospital for childbirth.

When my son was born, he had his fist up by his head.  My wife was becoming exhausted and finally relented to having an epidural.  With the epidural she relaxed and almost immediately my son moved a stage closer to birth.

I don't know about other places but there are plenty of hospitals in New England that have excellent maternity wards.  They'll be as drug free as you want but if there's an emergency you don't have to rush to the hospital or wait for an EMT or anything.  We found as with any situation that some professionals are more adept than others and you just have to keep your wits about you.
 
2013-07-03 02:52:20 PM  

StaleCoffee: We're in NJ and exempt from vax laws not because we don't believe in vaccines but we wanted to wait until our kids were older and their immune systems had more time to develop. Call me a nutter, fine, but I have farked up a lot of things in my life, I want to be careful not to fark up my kids too badly. I know all the arguments in both directions but I think immunizing our kids from 7 to 12 is a reasonable frame of time.


1. The whole point of the vaccination is because a child's immune system needs the help.
2. If you've farked up a lot of other things in your life, perhaps you should be listening to the advice of professionals instead of doing your own thinking about 7 - 12 being a reasonable time frame.
3. As far as knowing all the arguments in both directions there is only one direction valid arguments are coming from.  Vaccination does not cause autism.  Vaccination prevents (potentially) deadly diseases.  Yes, there is a very small risk of a negative reaction but there is a greater risk to your child, your other children if you have more than one, and to the children of others who have contact with your children.
 
2013-07-03 02:54:28 PM  

WeenerGord: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 467x400]
Opportunistic carnivore.


I read an article about someone doing a study on deer and they followed deer using night-vision cameras.  They found that some of the deer that they were following actively chased partridge or quail chicks and ate them.
 
2013-07-03 10:28:44 PM  

Alicious: Has no one told these vegan mothers about fenugreek?

http://www.breastfeedingonline.com/fenugreek.shtml#sthash.bau9bGIz.d pb s

The only downside is that your bodily fluids (sweat, urine, etc) end up smelling like maple syrup. You get tired of being asked who made pancakes.


Or Indian food. I had low supply and tried Fenugreek for a while (it did jack shiat) and my husband eventually forced me to stop taking it, because he said it was like sleeping next to an Indian restaurant.
 
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