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(Yahoo)   If you're a vegan mother who isn't producing enough milk to breast feed, you might consider: a) altering your diet b) switching to formula or c) using other mothers' milk. Wait a minute - trick question. Breast milk isn't vegan   (omg.yahoo.com) divider line 441
    More: Interesting, Alicia Silverstone, Mayim Bialik, other mother, parenting styles, Bialik, video sharing, milk, The Big Bang Theory  
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13114 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Jul 2013 at 11:30 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-02 12:06:51 PM

legion_of_doo: tuna fingers: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I do not agree with this sentiment at all.  Doctors and hospitals have their own agendas that may not coincide with the patient's needs.  For instance, did you try to have a natural (drug-free) birth?

We have a 1 year old, and every couple in our Bradley class that delivered in a hospital did not get the desired drug-free birth.  Zero for nine.

We had a home birth to avoid that.

You know what? We were all ra ra drug free, and then the first labor was HARD. Hard on he baby, hard on my wife, to the point where it was about to go c-section because both were exhausted. When you can see it on the fetal heart monitor due to the complications, it kind of matters to you.

The drugs helped a shiat ton at that point.

Yeah, it would be nice if the babby didn't get drugged out too, but modern medicine is a good thing.

I'm not saying everyone should be 100% pro-drug for delivery, but people also shouldn't rule it out. There's a reason why fewer mothers & children die during childbirth today than in years gone by.

/second child was so fast, he came out before the drug question even came up


My sister is a pediatrician and had epidurals, so that's a pretty good endorsement in my opinion. (IANAD)
 
2013-07-02 12:08:26 PM
What farking loon.  And pretty much what most of society thinks of vegans.
 
2013-07-02 12:08:47 PM

gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

*facepalm*


Does he live in a Big House?
 
2013-07-02 12:09:09 PM

YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: tuna fingers: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I do not agree with this sentiment at all.  Doctors and hospitals have their own agendas that may not coincide with the patient's needs.  For instance, did you try to have a natural (drug-free) birth?

We have a 1 year old, and every couple in our Bradley class that delivered in a hospital did not get the desired drug-free birth.  Zero for nine.

We had a home birth to avoid that.

You know what? We were all ra ra drug free, and then the first labor was HARD. Hard on he baby, hard on my wife, to the point where it was about to go c-section because both were exhausted. When you can see it on the fetal heart monitor due to the complications, it kind of matters to you.

The drugs helped a shiat ton at that point.

Yeah, it would be nice if the babby didn't get drugged out too, but modern medicine is a good thing.

I'm not saying everyone should be 100% pro-drug for delivery, but people also shouldn't rule it out. There's a reason why fewer mothers & children die during childbirth today than in years gone by.

/second child was so fast, he came out before the drug question even came up

My sister is a pediatrician and had epidurals, so that's a pretty good endorsement in my opinion. (IANAD)


My wife is a radiologist and had epidurals for all three of our kids. Our third was a couple of weeks early and she made me drive like Mario Andretti I the hospital so we didn't get there too late for her to start an epidural.
 
2013-07-02 12:10:43 PM

Dimensio: [www.aceshowbiz.com image 425x230]

Breast milk's not vegan?


He was tapping this
3.bp.blogspot.com

and this too
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-07-02 12:10:49 PM

Nabb1: Mikey1969: I'm fine with this except...

If you aren't able to produce enough milk to breast feed your kids, maybe being vegan isn't all that "natural" or "healthy"? Think about it for awhile, people.

Even many non-vegan mothers have milk-production issues, so it's not alway diet. But if your lifestyle leaves you unable to supplement low milk supply with formula, then you are making poor choices for your child.


If they're fine with consuming fluids produced by other humans then I have an excellent idea on how these vegan women can supplement their own diet with human produced protein fluid. They'll have no problems finding tens of thousands of donors.
 
2013-07-02 12:10:51 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: Mrbogey: The My Little Pony Killer: Wow, I was thinking of switching my cat over to raw food for the nutrition, but something more along the lines of meats, not the ingredients for my salad.

If you feed your cats raw meat, make sure you include taurine, vitamin E, and B vitamins supplements. Most muscle meat doesn't have enough of those in it to give them full nutrition.

You bet your butt I'll be working closely with her vet and with people who have successfully raised animals on that diet if I do take her that route.


A cat's natural diet involves chomping down the entire small critter. Consuming livers and bones are important to their health. Growing up on a farm, you frequently encountered mouse remains consistenting of nothing but heads and gall bladders. In the old days in England, many folks bought whole kippers and plopped them down for cats to feast upon.
 
2013-07-02 12:11:44 PM

the money is in the banana stand: YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.
Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.

Can't you not attend school without immunization records? Isn't that part of the enrollment process?


You can get exemptions in California. I think that applies to both public & private schools now... farking asshole helicopter conspiracy nutters.

/yay, junk science!
/looks like Pennsylvania also has religious/ethical exemptions from vaccination
 
2013-07-02 12:12:07 PM

Mrbogey: The My Little Pony Killer: Wow, I was thinking of switching my cat over to raw food for the nutrition, but something more along the lines of meats, not the ingredients for my salad.

If you feed your cats raw meat, make sure you include taurine, vitamin E, and B vitamins supplements. Most muscle meat doesn't have enough of those in it to give them full nutrition.


So, ground beef and Red Bull?  Sweet, I was already making that anyway...
 
2013-07-02 12:12:42 PM

legion_of_doo: tuna fingers: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I do not agree with this sentiment at all.  Doctors and hospitals have their own agendas that may not coincide with the patient's needs.  For instance, did you try to have a natural (drug-free) birth?

We have a 1 year old, and every couple in our Bradley class that delivered in a hospital did not get the desired drug-free birth.  Zero for nine.

We had a home birth to avoid that.

You know what? We were all ra ra drug free, and then the first labor was HARD. Hard on he baby, hard on my wife, to the point where it was about to go c-section because both were exhausted. When you can see it on the fetal heart monitor due to the complications, it kind of matters to you.

The drugs helped a shiat ton at that point.

Yeah, it would be nice if the babby didn't get drugged out too, but modern medicine is a good thing.

I'm not saying everyone should be 100% pro-drug for delivery, but people also shouldn't rule it out. There's a reason why fewer mothers & children die during childbirth today than in years gone by.

/second child was so fast, he came out before the drug question even came up


Here's a factoid for you.  The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies.  Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_r at e
 
2013-07-02 12:13:30 PM

legion_of_doo: the money is in the banana stand: YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.
Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.

Can't you not attend school without immunization records? Isn't that part of the enrollment process?

You can get exemptions in California. I think that applies to both public & private schools now... farking asshole helicopter conspiracy nutters.

/yay, junk science!
/looks like Pennsylvania also has religious/ethical exemptions from vaccination


Wow, there should be no exemptions.
 
2013-07-02 12:14:38 PM
Silverstone isn't the only celebrity to make headlines for her interesting parenting methods. "The Big Bang Theory" star Mayim Bialik

N-n-n-n-no. "Blossom star", or simply "Blossom".
 
2013-07-02 12:14:48 PM

tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.


Read the caveat:

Note that due to differences in reporting, these numbers may not be comparable across countries; while the WHO recommendation is that all children who show signs of life should be recorded as live births, in many countries this standard is not followed, artificially lowering their infant mortality rates relative to countries which follow those standards.
 
2013-07-02 12:15:13 PM
There have been breast milk banks for a long time now. Some medically fragile babies can not tolerate formula, and must drink breast milk. If Mom can't produce enough, they're screwed.

The only difference here is the whole vegan thing. And the fact that (I'm not 100% sure on this one, but I believe) babies who can drink formula but whose parents choose not to feed it to them would not have access to the limited supply of donated breast milk in the established breast milk bank. Although I'm sure there are women who will sell their milk to whomever will pay.
 
2013-07-02 12:15:18 PM

the money is in the banana stand: legion_of_doo: the money is in the banana stand: YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.
Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.

Can't you not attend school without immunization records? Isn't that part of the enrollment process?

You can get exemptions in California. I think that applies to both public & private schools now... farking asshole helicopter conspiracy nutters.

/yay, junk science!
/looks like Pennsylvania also has religious/ethical exemptions from vaccination

Wow, there should be no exemptions.


Well, if the Amish want to stay on their farms and fark around in their carriages, whatever, but the public schools shouldn't allow unvaccinated children.
 
2013-07-02 12:15:24 PM

Luse: The donor milk is almost certainly not from a strict vegan. We've already established they can't produce enough even for their own young.
Face it, you are a broken specimen due to your own decisions.


a la the Shakers.
 
2013-07-02 12:15:35 PM
If you're not producing enough breast milk, then there's something wrong with your diet.  If anything, this is an argument not to go vegan.
 
2013-07-02 12:15:41 PM

nocturnal001: My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?


I have a vegan friend who feeds her animals, I shiat you not, rotisserie chicken.  I should give her props for recognizing that dogs and cats are carnivores and require a meat diet, but damn.
 
2013-07-02 12:16:14 PM

Oldiron_79: Pocket Ninja: Using another woman's breast milk to feed your baby? This has never been done in the history of ever. We're breaking new ground here, people.

Guess people never heard of nursemaids back before formula was invented.


True, but typically these were women whose primary job was to feed babies and whom the parents usually met and saw on a regular basis.  Having some random person send body fluids in the mail  to give to an infant seems questionable at best.
 
2013-07-02 12:16:31 PM

Millennium: YixilTesiphon: Pray 4 Mojo: nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs? Do they feed them soyfood?

Had an acquaintance many moons ago that was a "Raw Foodist"... whatever the fark that is. He had two Dobermans that he fed oranges and avocados and shiat. Asshole. The dogs were always way too skinny and pretty listless.

/We snuck them cans of Alpo or Pedigree at every opportunity.

Beef isn't raw food?

Raw beef is raw food, but it doesn't play well with the human digestive and immune systems. Trying to apply that to dogs is just plain psychotic, though: canines are well-adapted for eating raw meat.


If that guy's dogs were anything like any of the dogs I've owned, if they got just a little piece of avocado it made them into a poop geyser for the next 12-24 hours. Maybe dobermans do better with that than my various mutts have, or that might explain why the dogs looked listless all the time.
 
2013-07-02 12:18:35 PM

tuna fingers: legion_of_doo:
You know what? We were all ra ra drug free, and then the first labor was HARD. Hard on he baby, hard on my wife, to the point where it was about to go c-section because both were exhausted. When you can see it on the fetal heart monitor due to the complications, it kind of matters to you.
The drugs helped a shiat ton at that point.
Yeah, it would be nice if the babby didn't get drugged out too, but modern medicine is a good thing.
I'm not saying everyone should be 100% pro-drug for delivery, but people also shouldn't rule it out. There's a reason why fewer mothers & children die during childbirth today than in years gone by.
/second child was so fast, he came out before the drug question even came up

Here's a factoid for you.  The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies.  Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_r at e


We're also more liberal in the definition of a live birth compared to other countries.

I'm not saying our system is perfect, but the infant mortality stats are known to be skewed due to differences in measurement.

/IMO I think it's more of a moral choice to say natural birth is better rather than scientific.
 
2013-07-02 12:18:46 PM

Mrbogey: tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

Read the caveat:

Note that due to differences in reporting, these numbers may not be comparable across countries; while the WHO recommendation is that all children who show signs of life should be recorded as live births, in many countries this standard is not followed, artificially lowering their infant mortality rates relative to countries which follow those standards.


We also have much better prenatal care. So pregnancies which might otherwise end in miscarriage can be carried to or nearly to term, to be ultimately unsuccessful.
 
2013-07-02 12:19:16 PM
If your life-style is damaging your health and/or that of your children, it might be time to re-evaluate your life-choices.
 
2013-07-02 12:20:15 PM

ciberido: mama2tnt: LordBeavis: theorellior: gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

I have an acquaintance who named her son "Bear". I don't quite get the logic, but whatevs. So far I've resisted the urge to say things like, "Feeling cranky and fussy? Better drink my own piss!"

The name "Bear" is fine and dandy in the ghey community.  Let's hope the kid doesn't turn out to be a twink, though, or it could get confusing.

A.W.
/Gave my kids names AND instructions: "You don't like your name? That's the worst thing I've ever done to you? Well, first of all, that makes me the greatest mother the planet has ever known. Second, the minute you turn 18 you can change it, so go ahead. It's just a name"

In many places you can change your name before you turn 18, though the rules are someone different and I think parental approval is required.  The rules vary from state to state within the USA, and I have no idea how it works outside the USA.  But assuming your child expresses a real desire to change her name before she turns 18, you might want to look into it.


Should've added, "So far the monsters LOVE their names and I've had to dissuade only one of them from changing - but it's only because he wanted to add an exclamation point, and I feared that since every person entering data into computers enters it differently, his records from school, doctor's offices, etc. would be hard to find."

/And I still feel Silverstone is an attention whore. It seems that whenever the spotlight turns away from a former star, they kill themselves - and/or their children and/or their spouses and/or their landladies - to get it turned back onto them.
 
2013-07-02 12:20:35 PM
Am I reading this right:  They're vegan because that's supposedly what we are supposed to be by nature or whatever but in being vegan they can't produce enough milk to keep their babies alive?
 
2013-07-02 12:20:52 PM

Mrbogey: tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

Read the caveat:

Note that due to differences in reporting, these numbers may not be comparable across countries; while the WHO recommendation is that all children who show signs of life should be recorded as live births, in many countries this standard is not followed, artificially lowering their infant mortality rates relative to countries which follow those standards.


Fair enough.  Let's dope them all.
 
2013-07-02 12:21:03 PM

tuna fingers: legion_of_doo: tuna fingers: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I do not agree with this sentiment at all.  Doctors and hospitals have their own agendas that may not coincide with the patient's needs.  For instance, did you try to have a natural (drug-free) birth?

We have a 1 year old, and every couple in our Bradley class that delivered in a hospital did not get the desired drug-free birth.  Zero for nine.

We had a home birth to avoid that.

You know what? We were all ra ra drug free, and then the first labor was HARD. Hard on he baby, hard on my wife, to the point where it was about to go c-section because both were exhausted. When you can see it on the fetal heart monitor due to the complications, it kind of matters to you.

The drugs helped a shiat ton at that point.

Yeah, it would be nice if the babby didn't get drugged out too, but modern medicine is a good thing.

I'm not saying everyone should be 100% pro-drug for delivery, but people also shouldn't rule it out. There's a reason why fewer mothers & children die during childbirth today than in years gone by.

/second child was so fast, he came out before the drug question even came up

Here's a factoid for you.  The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies.  Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_r at e


How many children born at 24 weeks survive in Cuba?
 
2013-07-02 12:21:13 PM
Ah, so it's only a matter of time before these vegan moms try and force schools to ban meat, cheese, most bread, etc. since their kids are now allergic to anything that isn't a vitamin shot.
 
2013-07-02 12:22:51 PM
cdn.hark.com
Greg : "Oh, you can milk just about anything with nipples."


Jack : Oh?....I have nipples, Greg, ... can you milk me?
 
2013-07-02 12:23:26 PM

tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.


Our hospitals are exceedingly poor at supporting women in labor without resorting to drugs.  They push the "lie on the bed on your back" position, the MOST PAINFUL position possible and least supportive for the baby coming out.  They impose artificial time tables.  They create nightmare-scenario warnings about "baby is too big based on the ultrasound" that has a quite-large error band.  They're slaves to due dates, even though they're educated guesses.  They impose needless restrictions on food and drink, so that the mother becomes completely exhausted just due to the tiny chance that she's rushed into surgery, while unconscious, and vomits but noone in the surgical suite notices and she aspirates.  They share nothing about body positioning or sacral pressure to relieve back labor, to adjust baby's position, or to help labor progress.  None of this is hippy-dippy, spirit-crystal nonsense... it mostly comes down to biomechanics.

They do push pitocin, which raises the need for an epidural, which raises the need for surgery.  That's what they do, because their specialties are crisis management, and unfortunately they end up creating crises.  We pay a lot more for all these interventions and they do provide worse outcomes.
 
2013-07-02 12:24:08 PM

Pray 4 Mojo: If your diet is causing your inability to properly feed your baby... maybe there's another, simpler solution.


Ditch the baby
 
2013-07-02 12:24:24 PM

tuna fingers: Cuba does a better job with delivering babies.



Cuba's patients/doctor ratio is about the lowest in the world.
 
2013-07-02 12:25:05 PM

nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?


Yes. At least one of them became a fark headline.
 
2013-07-02 12:25:22 PM

Luse: The donor milk is almost certainly not from a strict vegan. We've already established they can't produce enough even for their own young.
Face it, you are a broken specimen due to your own decisions.


How do I know that you didn't RTFA?  That they want vegan donor milk is the point, actually.  Some mothers have problems producing enough milk for whatever reason.  It might happen for reasons that have nothing to do with diet-- it happens to omnivorous mothers as well.  There already exist milk exchanges for donor milk, and as noted, it is also possible to supplement with formula.

The issue here is that if you are a vegan mother who happens to have an inadequate milk supply, you (apparently) might not want donor milk from a non-vegan who happens to have extra.  This project is to help vegan mothers who have an overabundance of milk connect with vegan mothers who don't.  It's kind of a non-story, really, unless you happen to be vegan and have an infant child.

Personally, I don't understand a diet that doesn't allow for tasty bacon, but to each his own.
 
2013-07-02 12:26:04 PM

tuna fingers: MattyFridays: My daughter spent 2 weeks in the hospital after being born.  Whatever the doctors said, we agreed with, because they were the best at what they do and obviously smarter than us when it came to the situation.

I do not agree with this sentiment at all.  Doctors and hospitals have their own agendas that may not coincide with the patient's needs.  For instance, did you try to have a natural (drug-free) birth?

We have a 1 year old, and every couple in our Bradley class that delivered in a hospital did not get the desired drug-free birth.  Zero for nine.

We had a home birth to avoid that.


I disagree with the sentiment based on the fact I can't always just bow to doctor authority and assume they will know more than me because they may not. They will be largely knowledgeable in their area of specialisation but usually not outside it. More issues with incorrect or incomplete information will be found with GPs.

I ended up in the er with a migraine a few weeks before I was due and the ob/gyn there tried to tell me it couldn't possibly be a migraine and it must be something else. The neurologist, on the other hand, agreed it was classic migraine and I was correct in what could have triggered it. He was surprised the ob/gyn was saying otherwise.
 
2013-07-02 12:26:09 PM

mama2tnt: Should've added, "So far the monsters LOVE their names and I've had to dissuade only one of them from changing - but it's only because he wanted to add an exclamation point, and I feared that since every person entering data into computers enters it differently, his records from school, doctor's offices, etc. would be hard to find."


Yep. I have a bunch of middle names, and I have a different name in almost every government database. So when I got a job where they required E-Verify, I had to show up with my birth certificate, selective service card, driver's license, social security card, AND passport.

/not looking forward to universal E-Verify
//dicks
 
2013-07-02 12:26:19 PM

YixilTesiphon: the money is in the banana stand: legion_of_doo: the money is in the banana stand: YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.
Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.

Can't you not attend school without immunization records? Isn't that part of the enrollment process?

You can get exemptions in California. I think that applies to both public & private schools now... farking asshole helicopter conspiracy nutters.
/yay, junk science!
/looks like Pennsylvania also has religious/ethical exemptions from vaccination

Wow, there should be no exemptions.

Well, if the Amish want to stay on their farms and fark around in their carriages, whatever, but the public schools shouldn't allow unvaccinated children.


Yeah, that's one of those things where religious & non-religious nutters must have equality in terms of the law.

/I don't know why the new California law forces private schools to deal with the same vac exemption nutters. The old law was public school only, as I recall That kind of pisses me off. farking government overreach. Must be farking Marin county again.
 
2013-07-02 12:27:24 PM

the money is in the banana stand: legion_of_doo: the money is in the banana stand: YixilTesiphon: legion_of_doo: You've got Vegans, immunization conspiracists, all sorts of highly educated wackos here.

We're expecting in November and the thing I am most worried about is immunization nutters transmitting disease to my child. SCIENCE IS REAL. Damn.
Luckily I don't think there are too many of those in Pennsylvania, but still.

Can't you not attend school without immunization records? Isn't that part of the enrollment process?

You can get exemptions in California. I think that applies to both public & private schools now... farking asshole helicopter conspiracy nutters.

/yay, junk science!
/looks like Pennsylvania also has religious/ethical exemptions from vaccination

Wow, there should be no exemptions.


The exemptions aren't supposed to be for conspiracy nutters. The exemptions are supposed to be for kids who had a bad reaction to one or two courses of vaccines but got all the rest, or for the relatively small number of folks who object for religious reasons. Those are fair enough reasons to get an exception: it's not the kid's fault he had a bad reaction to one vaccine, and church/state issues aside, there aren't enough of the religious objectors to do any real harm.

The conspiracy nutters have managed to abuse the system to the point where it's starting to affect the disease statistics, and that's a real problem. But getting rid of exceptions entirely is going to throw a lot of babies out with the bathwater: enough, perhaps, to prevent that path from being viable at all.

/had a bad reaction to one vaccine. Still got all the rest.
//glad there's an exception process.
 
2013-07-02 12:27:52 PM

factoryconnection: tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

Our hospitals are exceedingly poor at supporting women in labor without resorting to drugs.  They push the "lie on the bed on your back" position, the MOST PAINFUL position possible and least supportive for the baby coming out.  They impose artificial time tables.  They create nightmare-scenario warnings about "baby is too big based on the ultrasound" that has a quite-large error band.  They're slaves to due dates, even though they're educated guesses.  They impose needless restrictions on food and drink, so that the mother becomes completely exhausted just due to the tiny chance that she's rushed into surgery, while unconscious, and vomits but noone in the surgical suite notices and she aspirates.  They share nothing about body positioning or sacral pressure to relieve back labor, to adjust baby's position, or to help labor progress.  None of this is hippy-dippy, spirit-crystal nonsense... it mostly comes down to biomechanics.

They do push pitocin, which raises the need for an epidural, which raises the need for surgery.  That's what they do, because their specialties are crisis management, and unfortunately they end up creating crises.  We pay a lot more for all these interventions and they do provide worse outcomes.


My poor sister-in-law spent THREE DAYS in the hospital in labor, going back and forth between painkillers and epidurals, to the point where it had been going on for so long that they just decided to go for the c-section. What a counter-productive way of wasting money.
 
2013-07-02 12:30:20 PM

Mrbogey: tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you. The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies. Very few countries dope up mom/baby like we do, and no other country has C-sections like we do.

Read the caveat:

Note that due to differences in reporting, these numbers may not be comparable across countries; while the WHO recommendation is that all children who show signs of life should be recorded as live births, in many countries this standard is not followed, artificially lowering their infant mortality rates relative to countries which follow those standards.


THIS. Those comparable mortality rates are incredibly unreliable. Also, I know some doctors who have been down to Cuba and I wouldn't trust anything they tell you. While there are some great doctors down there, most facilities have grossly inadequate supplies.
 
2013-07-02 12:30:39 PM

likefunbutnot: One of my cousins is raising her three kids on a life-long vegan diet. The oldest is 12 and he's physically smaller than seven and eight year old kids from other relatives.


Smaller people consume less and love Earth more.  Except hobbits--they dig into mother Earth and eat tremendous amounts.  Filthy, nasty hobbitses.
 
2013-07-02 12:30:47 PM

Diogenes: theorellior: gopher321: Silverstone has been rather vocal about her unique parenting style since the birth of her son, Bear Blu

I have an acquaintance who named her son "Bear". I don't quite get the logic, but whatevs. So far I've resisted the urge to say things like, "Feeling cranky and fussy? Better drink my own piss!"

Reminds me of a punchline for a joke.  I forget the full flow of the joke narrative but it essentially had to do with Indian women competing to have the strongest son with the chief by conceiving on rugs made of animal hides.  Bear was the best because, "The son of the squa on the one hide is equal to the sons of the squas on the other two hides."


I'm gonna have to try and track that one down - I love stories with a PUNch line. Here are a few of my favorites:

"Better Nate than lever"

"People who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones"

"If the foo shiats, wear it"

Of course, my favorite bad story joke isn't even a pun - it's the story of The 99 Steps, and on a good day, I can spend over 20 minutes telling the story... just to end with the punch line "Corn flakes are more popular than scrambled eggs."

/I usually start running shortly after that.
 
2013-07-02 12:31:57 PM
so, do Vegans swallow when giving BJ's?
 
2013-07-02 12:32:34 PM
Vegans suffer from dual mental challenges.  Firstly, they have a deluded sense of moral self-awareness, that has been heightened by peer pressure to the point where they rationalize an irraitonal belief structure in order to maintain the false self-esteem that comes with that feeling of moral superiority.  Declaring themselves "vegans" makes them feel like they are somehow a mor advanced segment of society.  They see those who do not follow their lifestyle as primitive and driven by instinct rather than intellect.

Secondly..and arguably CAUSED by the first problem...is that they are unable to normalize basic biological concepts with regards to the nature of omnivourous species.  Their ability to think analytically is impaired by the self-imposed moral compass.  A vegan is simply incapable of accurately understanding the anthropology of humans and the natural order of things because their self-imposed hyper-morality corrupts the thought process from the start.  They are convinced that "intelligence" by its very nature excluded us from the food chain, and so they dismiss out of hand the biological and physiological attributes that make us omnivores in the first place.

IOW, Vegans are basically 'tarded.
 
2013-07-02 12:32:54 PM

Nabb1: THIS. Those comparable mortality rates are incredibly unreliable. Also, I know some doctors who have been down to Cuba and I wouldn't trust anything they tell you. While there are some great doctors down there, most facilities have grossly inadequate supplies.


Nice!  That makes us 33rd!  USA!  USA!  USA!
 
2013-07-02 12:33:05 PM

tuna fingers: Here's a factoid for you.  The great U S of A ranks 34th in the world regarding infant mortality rate.
Cuba does a better job with delivering babies.


Meh. Highest infant mortality of the first world goes hand-in-hand with lowest literacy rates, poorest education and healthcare, and a spate of other stats that put us squarely at the very bottom of civilized countries.

We are still above average for most third world countries though. USA! USA! USA!
 
2013-07-02 12:33:08 PM

nocturnal001: Smeggy Smurf: Bathia_Mapes: Just for the record, vegans do not object to breastfeeding.

Blatent hipocracy.

Ehh, not sure about that one.

Isn't the whole Vegan thing about not imposing harm to other animals? Breastfeeding your own baby is voluntary, milking a cow isn't really voluntary.

My bigger question is how many Vegans have cats or dogs?  Do they feed them soyfood?


Lots, and very often yes.

/If I abuse a vegan mother, will the baby taste the hate?
 
2013-07-02 12:33:33 PM

namegoeshere: There have been breast milk banks for a long time now. Some medically fragile babies can not tolerate formula, and must drink breast milk. If Mom can't produce enough, they're screwed.

The only difference here is the whole vegan thing.


I've got it.  Use ninjas.  I mean, I have on good authority that ninjas are mammals, so surely ninja breast milk would do the trick.
 
2013-07-02 12:34:17 PM

factoryconnection: Our hospitals are exceedingly poor at supporting women in labor without resorting to drugs.  They push the "lie on the bed on your back" position, the MOST PAINFUL position possible and least supportive for the baby coming out.


Our pre-natal classes, required by our HMO & taught by midwives from the HMO, bashed all the "lay on your back and push" old school stuff.  I think many/most know not to do that now, although many/most also will assign delivery to nurse midwives rather than a full OB/GYN due to cost. (There's OB/GYN always on call, but only for the problems, like our first child)

We also knew the risks of pitocin & the escalation in interventions (also part of our pre-natal classes). In the end, we didn't need all the interventions, but we were getting close to that point with our first child.
 
2013-07-02 12:35:19 PM

borg: It's vegan if it's your own being used to feed your child(ren).


[cough] BULLSHIATE!
 
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