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(Hardball Talk)   Andy Pettitte tops Yankees all-time strikeouts list, Whitey Ford sings the blues   (hardballtalk.nbcsports.com) divider line 28
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263 clicks; posted to Sports » on 02 Jul 2013 at 9:56 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-02 08:48:22 AM  
30daysout.files.wordpress.com

/sees what subby did
 
2013-07-02 10:03:15 AM  
Reminds me of what Robert Parrish said when he started passing Celtics milestones: (paraphrasing:)  It doesn't mean I'm the greatest.  It just means I've been around a loonnggg time.
/which is a feat in itself.  And yes, perhaps there's an asterisk.  But Pettitte belongs.
 
2013-07-02 10:04:15 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: It doesn't mean I'm the greatest. It just means I've taken a lot of roids

 
2013-07-02 10:05:12 AM  
Still won't be sniffed at for the hall
 
2013-07-02 10:09:01 AM  
I'm sure Whitey could have asked Roger Maris What It's Like to have a major record passed like that.
 
2013-07-02 10:14:46 AM  

Lost Thought 00: Still won't be sniffed at for the hall


He will get sniffed at, because Yankees get that treatment.  People will cite all sorts of postseason facts, and Andy Pettite (19 postseason wins!  All-time record!) holds a lot of them because he played in the wild-card era on a team that made the playoffs more or less every year.  Heck, Pettitte is 5th all-time in postseason appearances, and he's a damn starter.

The usual suspects will also point out the 250 Wins.  It's more than Juan Marichal!  (Juan Marichal also did not pitch for the 1990s-2000s Yankees.)  More than Whitey Ford!  (Missed two years to military service, part-time reliever, drank himself out of baseball by age 36.)  Heck, he will probably pass Jack Morris by the end of the year, and people keep mistaking Jack Morris for a great pitcher.

Eventually, people will realize that his stats are Hall of Very Good, and he won't get in.  But there will be sniffing, I assure you.
 
2013-07-02 10:15:03 AM  
In 1961, the season in which Ford recorded his personal best in strikeouts (209), the average team in the AL struck out 833 times. In 2012, the average AL team struck out 1187 time. So call me when Pettitte has 42% more K's than Ford.
 
2013-07-02 10:18:13 AM  

chimp_ninja: Lost Thought 00: Still won't be sniffed at for the hall

He will get sniffed at, because Yankees get that treatment.  People will cite all sorts of postseason facts, and Andy Pettite (19 postseason wins!  All-time record!) holds a lot of them because he played in the wild-card era on a team that made the playoffs more or less every year.  Heck, Pettitte is 5th all-time in postseason appearances, and he's a damn starter.

The usual suspects will also point out the 250 Wins.  It's more than Juan Marichal!  (Juan Marichal also did not pitch for the 1990s-2000s Yankees.)  More than Whitey Ford!  (Missed two years to military service, part-time reliever, drank himself out of baseball by age 36.)  Heck, he will probably pass Jack Morris by the end of the year, and people keep mistaking Jack Morris for a great pitcher.

Eventually, people will realize that his stats are Hall of Very Good, and he won't get in.  But there will be sniffing, I assure you.


I was thinking more along the lines of being a proven steroid user during the period in which he accumulated most of those stats. Right or wrong, the voters haven't shown a willingness to cross that line yet
 
2013-07-02 10:29:47 AM  
Honestly don't feel like wading into the steroid thing again; he's only ever admitted to HGH use for injury recovery and there isn't any evidence out there to suggest otherwise.

Now, is it possible he's not being truthful? Absolutely. Thing is, -I don't care-. Performance enhancers are a two way street. Batters were using them too. I view the whole performance enhancer issue as an era thing as opposed to an individual player thing. The only individual players I have issue with are the ones who are dicks and chronic liars about it.

If you wanna discuss whether or not he's Hall-worthy, do it for the reasons chimp_ninja mentioned.

I'm just happy this snapped the 5 game losing streak. Yankees are still in 4th coming into today though, but at least they're not any closer to falling to last.
 
2013-07-02 10:56:01 AM  

The Bestest: Honestly don't feel like wading into the steroid thing again; he's only ever admitted to HGH use for injury recovery and there isn't any evidence out there to suggest otherwise.

Now, is it possible he's not being truthful? Absolutely. Thing is, -I don't care-. Performance enhancers are a two way street. Batters were using them too. I view the whole performance enhancer issue as an era thing as opposed to an individual player thing. The only individual players I have issue with are the ones who are dicks and chronic liars about it.

If you wanna discuss whether or not he's Hall-worthy, do it for the reasons chimp_ninja mentioned.

I'm just happy this snapped the 5 game losing streak. Yankees are still in 4th coming into today though, but at least they're not any closer to falling to last.


Hey, we're all .500 or better AGAIN. (Hopefully all will be better if wang can outdo fister)

When will this madness end
 
2013-07-02 10:59:56 AM  
To be fair, Ford was never the same after the infamous pretzel incedent in Springfeild.
 
2013-07-02 11:04:37 AM  

Flappyhead: To be fair, Ford was never the same after the infamous pretzel incedent in Springfeild.


They're called Whitey Whackers, not pretzels.
 
2013-07-02 11:06:09 AM  

thecpt: (Hopefully all will be better if wang can outdo fister)


Whoa, whoa.  Can the NSFW talk.
 
2013-07-02 11:06:43 AM  
At least the Yankees have an excuse for crappy play.

/Looking at you, Tigers.
 
2013-07-02 11:11:40 AM  

chimp_ninja: thecpt: (Hopefully all will be better if wang can outdo fister)

Whoa, whoa.  Can the NSFW talk.


I didn't even mention how dickey stretched the zone yesterday...

Really hope Johnson pounds it tomorrow
 
2013-07-02 11:31:38 AM  
Is this the thread where we condemn Andy Pettitte for cheating but aw shucks at Whitey Ford for cheating
 
2013-07-02 11:42:05 AM  

thecpt: chimp_ninja: thecpt: (Hopefully all will be better if wang can outdo fister)

Whoa, whoa.  Can the NSFW talk.

I didn't even mention how dickey stretched the zone yesterday...

Really hope Johnson pounds it tomorrow


Johnson has been a bit flaccid lately, but he did record his 100th vs stiff competition, so there's still hope that he comes on strong in the second half.  If he makes it to the All Star Game, it might be best to have Fister go in hard followed by Johnson, that way the lineup will be loose and easily pummeled into submission.
 
2013-07-02 12:17:18 PM  
Pettite will end up in the HOF just my opinion.
 
2013-07-02 01:21:53 PM  
I didn't even know that asshole was still pitching.
 
2013-07-02 02:16:00 PM  

chimp_ninja: Lost Thought 00: Still won't be sniffed at for the hall

He will get sniffed at, because Yankees get that treatment.


Don Mattingly and Bernie Williams would like a word with you.

/Paul O'Neil didn't even make it to a 2nd year on the ballot
//None of those three are HOF worthy, Williams and Mattingly have better HOF resumes than Andy
 
2013-07-02 03:04:34 PM  

Willas Tyrell: chimp_ninja: Lost Thought 00: Still won't be sniffed at for the hall

He will get sniffed at, because Yankees get that treatment.

Don Mattingly and Bernie Williams would like a word with you.

/Paul O'Neil didn't even make it to a 2nd year on the ballot
//None of those three are HOF worthy, Williams and Mattingly have better HOF resumes than Andy


Williams will come a little closer than you'd think.  How many better CFs were there in the 90s / early 2000s?  Not that many.  Jim Edmonds, I guess.  Andruw Jones, easily, but somehow Andruw isn't getting into the HoF because voters don't know what defense is.

As to Pettitte, he's better than Jack Morris and Morris is probably going in this year.  But "better than Jack Morris" is like most of baseball.  David Cone and Kevin Brown are better than Jack Morris.  Neither are going in.

Pettitte's WAR of 58.8 is pretty respectable.  All the postseason stuff will count more than it should.  I bet he gets in.
 
2013-07-02 03:14:23 PM  

Willas Tyrell: chimp_ninja: Lost Thought 00: Still won't be sniffed at for the hall

He will get sniffed at, because Yankees get that treatment.

Don Mattingly and Bernie Williams would like a word with you.

/Paul O'Neil didn't even make it to a 2nd year on the ballot
//None of those three are HOF worthy, Williams and Mattingly have better HOF resumes than Andy


WAR isn't perfect, but Pettitte is way ahead of that field (bWAR/fWAR):
Pettitte: +58.8/+66.5
Bernie: +49.5/+44.4
Mattingly: +42.2/+40.9
O'Neill: +38.8/+41.1

You're probably not mentally adjusting Pettitte's ERA for where and when he pitched.  His prime years were in Yankee Stadium, in the DH league, in the heart of the Steroid Era.  Consistently putting up 4.00-ish ERAs in that environment is hard work, and he won the Yankees a lot of games by giving them 7 IP, 3 ER kinds of lines.  The Yankees and their rivals were scoring ~6 runs per game then.
 
2013-07-02 03:16:56 PM  

Dafatone: Williams will come a little closer than you'd think. How many better CFs were there in the 90s / early 2000s? Not that many. Jim Edmonds, I guess. Andruw Jones, easily, but somehow Andruw isn't getting into the HoF because voters don't know what defense is.


There was this other guy.  Griffendor?  Griffon?  Not Fred McGriff.  Griff-something.  Definitely played CF.

I'd vote for Andruw, but I agree his prospects look grim.  Edmonds, no.  Bernie (and this pains me), no.
 
2013-07-02 03:24:22 PM  

Dafatone: As to Pettitte, he's better than Jack Morris and Morris is probably going in this year. But "better than Jack Morris" is like most of baseball. David Cone and Kevin Brown are better than Jack Morris. Neither are going in.


Compare Jack Morris and Frank Tanana some time.  Both AL-exclusive guys (though Tanana had one partial year with the Mets before retiring) in roughly the same era.

Player A: 4188 IP, 3.66 ERA, 2773 K, 1255 BB, 1.27 WHIP, 106 ERA+, retired in 1993.
Player B: 3824 IP, 3.90 ERA, 2478 K, 1390 BB, 1.30 WHIP, 105 ERA+, retired in 1994.

Without looking, who's the HOF pitcher?  You can argue about the size of the Hall, but it's either both or neither, right?
 
2013-07-02 04:27:13 PM  

chimp_ninja: Dafatone: Williams will come a little closer than you'd think. How many better CFs were there in the 90s / early 2000s? Not that many. Jim Edmonds, I guess. Andruw Jones, easily, but somehow Andruw isn't getting into the HoF because voters don't know what defense is.

There was this other guy.  Griffendor?  Griffon?  Not Fred McGriff.  Griff-something.  Definitely played CF.

I'd vote for Andruw, but I agree his prospects look grim.  Edmonds, no.  Bernie (and this pains me), no.


You know, I always think that he only played about 7 or 8 years in CF and then moved to the corner.  Not true.
 
2013-07-02 06:25:15 PM  

ElwoodCuse: Is this the thread where we condemn Andy Pettitte for cheating but aw shucks at Whitey Ford for cheating


Whitey was the master of ripping stitches and scuffing or cutting baseballs. They busted him cutting the ball with his wedding ring, so Elston Howard his catcher sharpened a buckle on his shinguards. They stopped that, so his first baseman sharpened a rivet on his glove. He threw a mudball, a shineball and a spitter. They used to say that he could throw it around the batter's head if the Commissioner's name was stamped on the ball crooked.
 
2013-07-03 09:16:28 AM  

Dafatone: Willas Tyrell: chimp_ninja: Lost Thought 00: Still won't be sniffed at for the hall

He will get sniffed at, because Yankees get that treatment.

Don Mattingly and Bernie Williams would like a word with you.

/Paul O'Neil didn't even make it to a 2nd year on the ballot
//None of those three are HOF worthy, Williams and Mattingly have better HOF resumes than Andy

Williams will come a little closer than you'd think.  How many better CFs were there in the 90s / early 2000s?  Not that many.  Jim Edmonds, I guess.  Andruw Jones, easily, but somehow Andruw isn't getting into the HoF because voters don't know what defense is.


I loved Bernie when he was active, and considered him a consistently underrated player who was often overlooked in favor of flashier but less talented teammates.

But he's garnered virtually no HOF support and his 3.3% this last round of voting means he is off the ballot after only two years.
 
2013-07-03 11:02:07 AM  

Willas Tyrell: But he's garnered virtually no HOF support and his 3.3% this last round of voting means he is off the ballot after only two years.


If it's any consolation, the Yankees will probably retire 51
 
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