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(Washington Post)   Not news: People calling Edward Snowden a traitor. Ultra FARK: It's one of the two newspapers he first leaked US intel to   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 91
    More: Interesting, United States, free trades, Putin  
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2657 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Jul 2013 at 9:05 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-02 09:02:41 AM  
It is an opinion piece, it's not the official position of the Washington Post Company.
 
2013-07-02 09:08:09 AM  
Edward Snowden reminds me of the type of guy who 'leaks' inside info to "Ain't it Cool News" like "I hear it from good authority Tom Cruise will appear in a movie this year.  If you print this, call me "Maverick""
 
2013-07-02 09:08:38 AM  
That's not Ultra Fark at all. There's no reason a paper can't have a staff that sees it both ways.
 
2013-07-02 09:11:48 AM  
He is a traitor. It's that simple. He stole classified materials and gave them to China and Russia in return for protection.
 
2013-07-02 09:13:30 AM  
Maybe if Russia or China won't allow him to stay DPRK or Iran will stand up for freedom of speech and give him asylum.
 
2013-07-02 09:13:52 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-02 09:15:16 AM  

Carth: Maybe if Russia or China won't allow him to stay DPRK or Iran will stand up for freedom of speech and give him asylum.


Christ on a cracker I think I'd rather be in an American jail than just wandering around in North Korea.
 
2013-07-02 09:16:03 AM  
Is there anyone who didn't see this coming?  Really, this is going to be the line used to keep Americans from being outraged and rallying around Snowden.  Just like Robert Novak was used by the Bush admin, Obama will find friendly op-ed columnist shills to get their opinion in the newspapers.

He let the people of the US know that the NSA has become the Stazi, and had the balls to do this.

In the process of not becoming insane after being thrown into a supermax prison he found himself in China and the Russia.  Probably helping they to defend themselves by making sure secure 0's and 1's don't cross US based servers.

Is this ideal for the US, no.  Is this good for the nation as a whole on this upcoming July fourth.  Hell yes.

/He could have gone to a secure non-player country but then would he have fallen in a CIA safehouse, maybe.  There is alot of second guessing that I or others here have no idea about.

/To the Republican shills out there, yes, Obama sucks on this issue, would Romney been any different if not worse?
 
2013-07-02 09:16:17 AM  

vpb: It is an opinion piece, it's not the official position of the Washington Post Company.


You concluded that because it says on the same page

"Editorials represent the views of The Washington Post as an institution, as determined through debate among members of the editorial board."
 
2013-07-02 09:18:35 AM  
He withdrew his asylum application from Russia after Putin said he wouldn't consider granting asylum unless Snowden stopped the leaks.

He took the Booz Allen Hamilton job with the intent to steal classified documents and expose the United States. He started leaking information about the information that we have from spying on other countries. He's exposing us to both our allies and our enemies. He's jeopardizing our security now.

He is, without a doubt, a traitor. He deserves to be brought back to the US and tried as such.
 
2013-07-02 09:21:05 AM  

Enemabag Jones: He let the people of the US know that the NSA has become the Stazi, and had the balls to do this


Problems with this statement:

1) The NSA spies on foreigners. The Stazi operated on East Germans
2) All US connections found by the NSA must go through the FISA court and are then handled by the FBI, as only the FBI has the legal authority to work on American soil. The Stazi was a secret police that kidnapped and tortured their own people.
 
2013-07-02 09:22:13 AM  
Is submitter Edward Snowden? One does not speak of Ultraf***CARRIER LOST***!
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-02 09:23:31 AM  

oryx: vpb: It is an opinion piece, it's not the official position of the Washington Post Company.

You concluded that because it says on the same page

"Editorials represent the views of The Washington Post as an institution, as determined through debate among members of the editorial board."


No, because it was clearly labeled "opinion" and it was in the opinion section.  These are the same editors that published the material in the first place, so they can't think he is all that treasonous.  Not to mention that there are plenty of pro-Snowden articles in the Post.

This isn't Fox where a single point of view is being pushed.
 
2013-07-02 09:24:53 AM  
WaPo's editorial board exists to fellate the military-industrial complex. Of course they're going to oppose someone trying to overturn that applecart.
 
2013-07-02 09:25:14 AM  
I can think of a few other American heroes that loved their country that found themselves in a position to give national security information to China.

They were flying around the edges of China collecting information.  Then this pilot ironically called Wong Way clipped them in the process of harassing them, probably on accident.  They had the choice of going down in the ocean or landing in China.  The pilots saved their own bacon and landed in China.

I would argue that Snowden did more for America by letting them know what was going on then those pilots did.  I do believe they were called Heroes upon return.  And if my memory is correct that plane was returned in a box just like the MIG foxbat landing in Japan was returned to the USSR.

Sometimes life is not pretty, but will I buy the opinion of the shills, hell no.
 
2013-07-02 09:25:27 AM  

generallyso: [i.imgur.com image 400x400]


  We never dealt with domestic. With us, it was always war. We won the war. Now we're fighting the peace. It's a lot more volatile. Now we've got ten million crackpots out there with sniper scopes, sarin gas and C-4. Ten-year-olds go on the Net, downloading encryption we can barely break, not to mention instructions on how to make a low-yield nuclear device. Privacy's been dead for years because we can't risk it. The only privacy that's left is the inside of your head. Maybe that's enough. You think we're the enemy of democracy, you and I? I think we're democracy's last hope.
 
2013-07-02 09:25:42 AM  
i17.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-02 09:27:01 AM  
The word traitor has such a stigma to it.  He defied his government, yes, but there are still questions as to whether he thought it was necessary to right a wrong, or whether he raked in a bunch of cash from Wiki Leaks or another country or organization
 
2013-07-02 09:28:44 AM  
WTF Indeed
Enemabag Jones: He let the people of the US know that the NSA has become the Stazi, and had the balls to do this
Problems with this statement:
1) The NSA spies on foreigners. The Stazi operated on East Germans
2) All US connections found by the NSA must go through the FISA court and are then handled by the FBI, as only the FBI has the legal authority to work on American soil. The Stazi was a secret police that kidnapped and tortured their own people.


You are telling me that FISA does not approve 99.9 percent of everything in front of it, and that with a straight face that the NSA does not spy on Americans too?

Show me the evidence otherwise.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-02 09:30:00 AM  

Derpes: He withdrew his asylum application from Russia after Putin said he wouldn't consider granting asylum unless Snowden stopped the leaks.

He took the Booz Allen Hamilton job with the intent to steal classified documents and expose the United States. He started leaking information about the information that we have from spying on other countries. He's exposing us to both our allies and our enemies. He's jeopardizing our security now.

He is, without a doubt, a traitor. He deserves to be brought back to the US and tried as such.



I don't think he is legally, but he did betray a position of trust and violate the law.

If he had actually exposed wrongdoing and not released anything else he would qualify as a whistle blower, but he didn't.

I think the real issue is the fact that the NSA is giving basement dwellers security clearances.
 
2013-07-02 09:31:13 AM  

Enemabag Jones: I can think of a few other American heroes that loved their country that found themselves in a position to give national security information to China.

They were flying around the edges of China collecting information.  Then this pilot ironically called Wong Way clipped them in the process of harassing them, probably on accident.  They had the choice of going down in the ocean or landing in China.  The pilots saved their own bacon and landed in China.

I would argue that Snowden did more for America by letting them know what was going on then those pilots did.  I do believe they were called Heroes upon return.  And if my memory is correct that plane was returned in a box just like the MIG foxbat landing in Japan was returned to the USSR.

Sometimes life is not pretty, but will I buy the opinion of the shills, hell no.


The EP-3 pilots were able to destroy, according to naval procedures, all the classified data and navigation equipment no board before it was taken by the PLA. They were then held hostage for nearly 2 weeks  by a foreign military and didn't revel any classified information during intense questioning.

They managed to do such a good job destroying the plane that the US estimates it would have taken them 12 months to make it flyable again. Instead china refused and chopped it up into little pieces and shipped it back in boxes.

The fact you're comparing them to Snowden, who intentionally leaked classified information to the press and foreign governments,  means you either know nothing about the incident, being disingenuous, an idiot, or all three.
 
2013-07-02 09:31:14 AM  
Russia says Snowden's withdrawn his application for asylum because they told him he'd have to stop publicizing secrets.

Oh, but maybe someone else will take him in. Oh wait. "Several countries, including Snowden's favored Ecuador, said on Tuesday they could not consider an asylum request from Snowden unless he was on their territory. Norway said he was unlikely to get asylum there, and Poland said it would not give a 'positive recommendation' to any request. Finland, Spain, Ireland and Austria say he has to be in their country to make a request. India said they 'see no reason' to accept his petition. Russia has made it clear that they want him to leave." (source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/02/us-usa-security-snowden-idU S BRE9610C520130702).

Russia has announced they'll allow a foreign embassy to pick him up in a diplomatic car, any old time anyone wants to. I'll let you translate what that means that from Diplomat to English.
 
2013-07-02 09:33:27 AM  
The government can do no wrong. The TV says so and the TV never lies.  Only people who don't work for billionaires lie.
 
2013-07-02 09:33:54 AM  
Keep attacking the messenger. In a few weeks everyone will forget why but know for a fact Snowden is evil.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-02 09:34:50 AM  

Enemabag Jones: You are telling me that FISA does not approve 99.9 percent of everything in front of it, and that with a straight face that the NSA does not spy on Americans too?

Show me the evidence otherwise.


"You can't prove it's not true!"  The same argument used by UFO believers.

Considering that the people requesting the warrants know what the criteria for approval are, they aren't going to submit requests that don't meet them.

Maybe they should make some intentionally make some bad requests that they know will be rejected just to make the numbers look better?
 
2013-07-02 09:38:23 AM  
Meanwhile, corporate America is just as competent, diligent, and transparent in the national security business as we are in any other business. Snowden worked for a private company, not a country.  If he is a traitor, so is his employer.
 
2013-07-02 09:41:05 AM  

Enemabag Jones: You are telling me that FISA does not approve 99.9 percent of everything in front of it, and that with a straight face that the NSA does not spy on Americans too?

Show me the evidence otherwise.


Again. The Stazi and other police state agencies that you masturbate too have no restrictions on where they can work and who they can work on.

In a real police state, there is no FISA court. There is no FBI to further the investigation with warrants so that charges can be filed in open court. You think that the government is coming for you because of vast conspiracy to take away your rights and re-educate you. You want to see what a real police state intel program looks like? Go to Ecuador, where the national police arrest you, torture you, and jail you for speaking out against the government. Or go to China where if you complain to loudly about the why tens of thousands of school children died in a poorly built building during an earthquake they through you in jail and threaten your family with violence. Or go to Russia, where if you speak out against the party in power they jail you for two years.

Your continued ignorance of how the 1)The real world, 2)How the US government operates, and 3)Basic laws shows that you're nothing more than a crazy nutter jerking off to anti-government fantasies while photocopying your manifesto to hand out on street corners.
 
2013-07-02 09:41:38 AM  
Carth,
The EP-3 pilots were able to destroy, according to naval procedures, all the classified data and navigation equipment no board before it was taken by the PLA. They were then held hostage for nearly 2 weeks by a foreign military and didn't revel any classified information during intense questioning.
They managed to do such a good job destroying the plane that the US estimates it would have taken them 12 months to make it flyable again. Instead china refused and chopped it up into little pieces and shipped it back in boxes.
The fact you're comparing them to Snowden, who intentionally leaked classified information to the press and foreign governments, means you either know nothing about the incident, being disingenuous, an idiot, or all three.


First the information may or may not have been completely destroyed. And no I don't believe the government would admit was classified information was compromised as an act of honesty if what you say is incorrect.

Second I am talking about heroes, people that are willing to do what is necessary that compromise their lives for the American public. If that is the case Snowden might have done more for America then those E3 pilots in terms of good for the American public and risks to their own personal asset.

And I wasn't talking about the plane itself, I was talking about what was inside that plane.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-02 09:44:18 AM  

macadamnut: Meanwhile, corporate America is just as competent, diligent, and transparent in the national security business as we are in any other business. Snowden worked for a private company, not a country.  If he is a traitor, so is his employer.


That's a good point.  He supposedly took that job specifically to get this data that he is releasing, even though his previous job was with the NSA.

Why would a contractor have access to all this stuff that a NSA employee didn't?  How lax is it's security?
 
2013-07-02 09:44:45 AM  
HAIL ANTS, EVERYONE! HAIL ANTS!

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-07-02 09:45:51 AM  

WTF Indeed: Enemabag Jones: He let the people of the US know that the NSA has become the Stazi, and had the balls to do this

Problems with this statement:

1) The NSA spies on foreigners. The Stazi operated on East Germans
2) All US connections found by the NSA must go through the FISA court and are then handled by the FBI, as only the FBI has the legal authority to work on American soil. The Stazi was a secret police that kidnapped and tortured their own people.


ohwaityoureseriousletmelaughharder.jpg
 
2013-07-02 09:46:00 AM  
WTF Indeed ,
Again. The Stazi and other police state agencies that you masturbate too have no restrictions on where they can work and who they can work on.

In a real police state, there is no FISA court. There is no FBI to further the investigation with warrants so that charges can be filed in open court. You think that the government is coming for you because of vast conspiracy to take away your rights and re-educate you. You want to see what a real police state intel program looks like? Go to Ecuador, where the national police arrest you, torture you, and jail you for speaking out against the government. Or go to China where if you complain to loudly about the why tens of thousands of school children died in a poorly built building during an earthquake they through you in jail and threaten your family with violence. Or go to Russia, where if you speak out against the party in power they jail you for two years.
Your continued ignorance of how the 1)The real world, 2)How the US government operates, and 3)Basic laws shows that you're nothing more than a crazy nutter jerking off to anti-government fantasies while photocopying your manifesto to hand out on street corners.


I am going to invoke Poe's law and honestly say I don't know if you are for real or not. If you are for real we are so far apart their is not point in further discussion.

However I do admire your writing. If I was a less rational personal I would be foaming at the mouth right now. However your writing is incredible and you are a wordsmith and great at inciting people.

/My hat off to you sir.
 
2013-07-02 09:47:29 AM  
We live in a world where the criminals who snoop on us are rewarded, and the heroes who try to expose that crime become homeless criminals.

Now I see why we live the kind of awful lives that we do. Most people seem to LIKE their slave collars and have learned to love the whip.
 
2013-07-02 09:49:05 AM  

Enemabag Jones: I am going to invoke Poe's law and honestly say I don't know if you are for real or not. If you are for real we are so far apart their is not point in further discussion.

However I do admire your writing. If I was a less rational personal I would be foaming at the mouth right now. However your writing is incredible and you are a wordsmith and great at inciting people.


I can't argue with you because I know I'm wrong, so instead I'm going to make fun of your spelling and grammar mistakes.

/My hat off to you sir.


FTFY
 
2013-07-02 09:49:30 AM  

Enemabag Jones: If that is the case Snowden might have done more for America then those E3 pilots in terms of good for the American public and risks to their own personal asset.


You mean exposing the secrets we've collected on our allies and enemies? Do you know the damage that can do for our relations? Sure, all countries spy on each other but as long as the information isn't exposed, we don't do anything about it. Now that he's said "Hey world, here's what America knows about you!", we're at risk of losing some of our allies, trade agreements, financial help, etc.

This is more than the warranted cell phone data collection now. He is NOT a hero.
 
2013-07-02 09:50:32 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: WTF Indeed: Enemabag Jones: He let the people of the US know that the NSA has become the Stazi, and had the balls to do this

Problems with this statement:

1) The NSA spies on foreigners.

EVERYONE.

In fact, this post is now sitting in an NSA server no doubt, waiting to be processed for terrorist intent (dirty bomb pressure cooker jihad jihad Rachel Maddow for President) and then cataloged.
 
2013-07-02 09:50:39 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: The word traitor has such a stigma to it.  He defied his government, yes, but there are still questions as to whether he thought it was necessary to right a wrong, or whether he raked in a bunch of cash from Wiki Leaks or another country or organization


More than that, there's legal implications for extradition.
Treason carries a max of the death penalty and raises the sticky question of which "enemy(ies)" he aided if it goes to trial. It can become a sticky situation for whoever turns him over.

As it is he's likely to get lost in the system if they return him to allied soil. The information that Assange, the Russians, and the Chinese have grifted off him is probably enough to get us nailed with sanctions (or the threat of them, anyway) over our international spying.  We still don't know what the backlash for spying on US citizens will end up being. There is plenty of political embarrassment to go around.

Its a situation where we can't afford to ignore him but we also can't make a case for them to send him home.
He's likely to win political asylum or end up residing in a loophole for a few years, assuming he doesn't do something stupid.
 
2013-07-02 09:50:59 AM  
WTF Indeed ,
Enemabag Jones: I am going to invoke Poe's law and honestly say I don't know if you are for real or not. If you are for real we are so far apart their is not point in further discussion.
However I do admire your writing. If I was a less rational personal I would be foaming at the mouth right now. However your writing is incredible and you are a wordsmith and great at inciting people.
I can't argue with you because I know I'm wrong, so instead I'm going to make fun of your spelling and grammar mistakes.
/My hat off to you sir.
FTFY


Thank you sir may I please have another!
Thank you sir may I please have another!
Thank you sir may I please have another!
 
2013-07-02 09:51:41 AM  
The Post is a neocon shiathole.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-02 09:52:36 AM  

Enemabag Jones: Second I am talking about heroes, people that are willing to do what is necessary that compromise their lives for the American public. If that is the case Snowden might have done more for America then those E3 pilots in terms of good for the American public and risks to their own personal asset.


He hasn't done anything for the American public.  He just revealed details of what we already new.

The FISA court was established in 1978 specifically to regulate this sort of thing.  It shouldn't be all that surprising that there is something to regulate.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-02 09:55:21 AM  

Enemabag Jones: I am going to invoke Poe's law and honestly say I don't know if you are for real or not. If you are for real we are so far apart their is not point in further discussion.

However I do admire your writing. If I was a less rational personal I would be foaming at the mouth right now. However your writing is incredible and you are a wordsmith and great at inciting people.


You don't even know that you are paranoid do you?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-02 09:56:26 AM  

punkhippie: The Post is a neocon shiathole.


They work for The Man.  It's a conspiracy.
 
2013-07-02 10:03:02 AM  
Saying bad things against George Bush = "dissent is the highest form of patriotism."

Saying bad things against Obama = treason.

I know which political party *I* want in charge!
 
2013-07-02 10:04:08 AM  
vpb
Enemabag Jones: I am going to invoke Poe's law and honestly say I don't know if you are for real or not. If you are for real we are so far apart their is not point in further discussion.
However I do admire your writing. If I was a less rational personal I would be foaming at the mouth right now. However your writing is incredible and you are a wordsmith and great at inciting people.
You don't even know that you are paranoid do you?


Does the above make me paranoid. I thought it was a sincere compliment to WTF indeed.
 
2013-07-02 10:04:54 AM  
The disingenuity of TFA's conclusion just slays me:

"The best solution for both Mr. Snowden and the Obama administration would be his surrender to U.S. authorities, followed by a plea negotiation. It's hard to believe that the results would leave the 30-year-old contractor worse off than living in permanent exile in an unfree country. Sadly, the supposed friends of this naive hacker are likely advising him otherwise. "
 
2013-07-02 10:05:08 AM  

WTF Indeed: Enemabag Jones: He let the people of the US know that the NSA has become the Stazi, and had the balls to do this

Problems with this statement:

1) The NSA spies on foreigners. The Stazi operated on East Germans
2) All US connections found by the NSA must go through the FISA court and are then handled by the FBI, as only the FBI has the legal authority to work on American soil. The Stazi was a secret police that kidnapped and tortured their own people.


No no no, both sides are equally bad therefore NSA  = Stazi. For Christ's sake, use logic
 
2013-07-02 10:09:51 AM  

vpb: macadamnut: Meanwhile, corporate America is just as competent, diligent, and transparent in the national security business as we are in any other business. Snowden worked for a private company, not a country.  If he is a traitor, so is his employer.

That's a good point.  He supposedly took that job specifically to get this data that he is releasing, even though his previous job was with the NSA.

Why would a contractor have access to all this stuff that a NSA employee didn't?  How lax is it's security?


That's what the link is about; the private company hired to do background checks on applicants for security clearance realised they could make a better profit if they just pretended to do the actual vetting, complete with made-up documentation of legwork they never did.
So of the more than five million people with security clearance, somewhere between zero and five million have actually been cleared through security, because capitalism.
 
2013-07-02 10:34:22 AM  
NSA != Stazi.  On one hand, the NSA data hasn't been used for any political prosecutions (that we know of).  On the other, it has capabilities the Stazi could only dream of.  Well, at least our incarceration rate isn't very high.  Oh, wait.

Not that I necessarily believe the data is being abused right now.  The most likely scenario would be that someone with physical access to the data is a vindictive prick that could illegally use the data to act out his revenge fantasy by putting him on some super secret terror watch list.  There are waaaay to many farking people like that in high government positions and/or the military to believe that sort of thing won't happen.

Snowden was a hero for exposing the spying on American citizens.  Not so much for the spying on other governments.  I really don't care what governments do to each other, as long as it's not harming innocent people, so that stuff is best kept secret.
 
2013-07-02 10:42:44 AM  
I just love the faux outrage of this administration.  Every time Snowden opens his mouth, the US loses even more credibility in the world and with its own citizens.  It's win win for big O. lol
 
2013-07-02 11:12:15 AM  
I'd really like to know why some call him a traitor.  How is it traitorous to let the people of the USA know that their government is violating the 5th amendment of the constitution?
 
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