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(Reuters)   EU confronts US over spying program like an alcoholic wife with a handful of incriminating pictures   (reuters.com) divider line 89
    More: Sad, United States, Brunei, ANI, High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, free trade agreements, Charles Schulz  
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5504 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Jul 2013 at 9:51 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-01 08:16:24 AM  
After the Russia and China thing the EU was just feeling left out. Kind of like "arnt we important enough to be spied on?!" thing.
 
2013-07-01 09:21:35 AM  
Great, now Europe is gonna get half out stuff.
 
2013-07-01 09:56:08 AM  
Do not forget that there is currently a round of negotations to improve commercial exchanges between the US and Europe at the moment. The Europeans are seizing everything they can to weaken the US position.

As they should.
 
2013-07-01 09:56:12 AM  
But mom, Jimmy and Billy were doing it too.
 
2013-07-01 09:56:44 AM  
Does anyone get the feeling the US is about to out a few Europeans spying on the US and ask what the problem is?
 
2013-07-01 09:58:15 AM  
Some EU policymakers said talks for a free trade agreement between Washington and the EU should be put on ice until further clarification from the United States.

Great. Obstructionism is spreading across the globe.
 
2013-07-01 09:58:53 AM  
They called it a cold war between the EU and the US.
 
2013-07-01 09:59:11 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: Does anyone get the feeling the US is about to out a few Europeans spying on the US and ask what the problem is?


It's fairly well understood that everyone is "spying" on everyone at that level. I'm not sure what all the public hullah-balloo is over, quite honest. Countries do it, corporations do it, everyone.  If you didn't, you'd be a fool.  It's information gathering.
 
2013-07-01 09:59:49 AM  
Just because we're friends, doesn't mean we trust you.
 
2013-07-01 10:00:03 AM  
I will say that every country in the world that is engaged in international affairs and national security undertakes lots of activities to protect its national security and all kinds of information contributes to that. All I know is that is not unusual for lots of nations," Kerry told a news conference.

Probably one of the few things Kerry has ever said about which I agree.  We spy, you spy, we all spy.  Now STFU and go spy on somebody.
 
2013-07-01 10:00:11 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: Does anyone get the feeling the US is about to out a few Europeans spying on the US and ask what the problem is?


I very much hope so, because it's very bad otherwise.
 
2013-07-01 10:00:16 AM  
Actually, the EU is behaving more like a cheating wife who finds lipstick on her husband's collar.  If there is any country out there who believes that every other country out there isn't spying on them or trying to, we have a new standard for adamant ignorance.
 
2013-07-01 10:02:37 AM  
As I have said before I would expect out government to be spying on them. Our government would be negligent if it were not. I am sure at least some of them (the UK, France and Germany at a minimum) to be spying on us.

The "spying" without a warrant on US citizens, the use of government agencies to attack political opponents and attempts to silence the media by the US government is when it gets to be a problem.
 
2013-07-01 10:02:49 AM  

BAMFinator: Just because we're friends, doesn't mean we trust you.


THIS

camelclub: I will say that every country in the world that is engaged in international affairs and national security undertakes lots of activities to protect its national security and all kinds of information contributes to that. All I know is that is not unusual for lots of nations," Kerry told a news conference.

Probably one of the few things Kerry has ever said about which I agree.  We spy, you spy, we all spy.  Now STFU and go spy on somebody.


THIS

neversubmit: Nana's Vibrator: Does anyone get the feeling the US is about to out a few Europeans spying on the US and ask what the problem is?

I very much hope so, because it's very bad otherwise.


NOT THIS

Mr. Right: Actually, the EU is behaving more like a cheating wife who finds lipstick on her husband's collar.  If there is any country out there who believes that every other country out there isn't spying on them or trying to, we have a new standard for adamant ignorance.


THIS
 
2013-07-01 10:03:15 AM  
upload.wikimedia.org

Shaddup ya' mout'. We's talking about our freedoms here woman! You wanna some moke ta come in here and take yer freedoms away? Do you think I wanna do this stuff? It burns me right here in the labanza when I gotta do this stuff. But I'm doin' it fer us! So's we kin enjoy our freedoms. Isn't dat what you want? Isn't it?
 
2013-07-01 10:04:24 AM  
you go letting everyone download The Bourne Trilogy and Mission: Impossible & you think there won't be repercussions?

meanwhile 'Burn Notice" is going off the air because they have Sam, Michael and Fiona. and they're looking for Michael's Mom! this has got to stop.
 
2013-07-01 10:04:45 AM  
The French president is writing angrily worded letters already. The NSA will know the content before it even arrives.
 
2013-07-01 10:06:50 AM  
Good job, Obama
 
2013-07-01 10:07:28 AM  
It's okay she will take US back. She loves US, even though she gets a smack once in awhile when US gets drunk.
 
2013-07-01 10:18:49 AM  
alcoholic wife... or alcoholic's wife?
 
2013-07-01 10:21:03 AM  
Yeah, just keep acting like you don't spy on everyone yourself.
 
2013-07-01 10:22:36 AM  

Mr. Right: Actually, the EU is behaving more like a cheating wife who finds lipstick on her husband's collar.  If there is any country out there who believes that every other country out there isn't spying on them or trying to, we have a new standard for adamant ignorance.


Exactly, we know what the lipstick means but we're quietly ignoring it and just doing laundry with blind eyes
 
2013-07-01 10:22:56 AM  
FTFA - "If the media reports are correct, this brings to memory actions among enemies during the Cold War. It goes beyond any imagination that our friends in the United States view the Europeans as enemies," German Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger said.

Dude, we think our own fellow citizens are enemies... what makes you think you are gonna be treated any less?
 
2013-07-01 10:24:17 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: After the Russia and China thing the EU was just feeling left out. Kind of like "arnt we important enough to be spied on?!" thing.


well more to the point, most of the spying was on Germany's economic centers

the rest of Europe being outraged is dumb, but Germany has a legit reason to complain

like everything in the EU, only Germany has any legitimacy
 
2013-07-01 10:25:26 AM  

KrispyKritter: you go letting everyone download The Bourne Trilogy and Mission: Impossible & you think there won't be repercussions?

meanwhile 'Burn Notice" is going off the air because they have Sam, Michael and Fiona. and they're looking for Michael's Mom! this has got to stop.


Aww no! Burn Notice is getting cancelled?
 
2013-07-01 10:28:58 AM  

payattention: FTFA - "If the media reports are correct, this brings to memory actions among enemies during the Cold War. It goes beyond any imagination that our friends in the United States view the Europeans as enemies," German Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger said.

Dude, we think our own fellow citizens are enemies... what makes you think you are gonna be treated any less?



Because Germany has laws against this type of thing and, apparently, the US does not.
 
2013-07-01 10:38:58 AM  

AdamK: The Stealth Hippopotamus: After the Russia and China thing the EU was just feeling left out. Kind of like "arnt we important enough to be spied on?!" thing.

well more to the point, most of the spying was on Germany's economic centers

the rest of Europe being outraged is dumb, but Germany has a legit reason to complain

like everything in the EU, only Germany has any legitimacy


Weren't the Germans spying on the Cypriot banks right before they went kaput to discern the largest depositors?
 
2013-07-01 10:41:47 AM  

rikkitikkitavi: It's fairly well understood that everyone is "spying" on everyone at that level. I'm not sure what all the public hullah-balloo is over, quite honest. Countries do it, corporations do it, everyone.  If you didn't, you'd be a fool.  It's information gathering.


The EU gets to take some free shots at the US in public, and we cant put up any kind of a defense.  So they are.  Nothing will really change in the real world, I mean its not like we're going to stop bugging them or anything.  Its just passive aggressive behavior from people who dont have much real power in the world these days, to be frank.
 
2013-07-01 10:46:09 AM  

Mr. Right: Actually, the EU is behaving more like a cheating wife who finds lipstick on her husband's collar.  If there is any country out there who believes that every other country out there isn't spying on them or trying to, we have a new standard for adamant ignorance.


The problem is that a form of etiquette has been broken. By leaking the fact that spying happens the respective governments have to act surprised and offended. They'll never be re-elected if they go on television with the proclamation "WTF did you expect them to do? Did you actually suspect things didn't work this way? It isn't as if we aren't collecting information about them."
 
2013-07-01 10:49:35 AM  
Dudes, we've been spying on each other for like 100 years.

AND MORE
 
2013-07-01 10:50:48 AM  
The US got caught peeping in the proverbial restroom.

So far the defense of this seems to be akin to asserting said restroom resides in gay club where all the stalls have glory holes.
 
2013-07-01 10:52:37 AM  
Spy or no, can we at least drop the farking hypocrisy?

We have no qualms about disregarding the rights of others to suit of own ends. Its time to admit it.
 
2013-07-01 10:54:52 AM  
Blackmail has gotten so easy now it's plain boring.
 
2013-07-01 11:04:27 AM  
I keep seeing people defend the US's actions here by saying, "It's no big deal.  Everyone is doing it.", but are they really?  The EU members don't have an intelligence apparatus anywhere on the scale of what the US has.  The US's foreign policy dominance also allows it to essentially set the stage for diplomatic encounters, allowing it to create it's own opportunities for espionage.  It's kind of like the one rich neighbor on the block getting caught installing hidden HD cameras in everyone else's homes and then saying it's no big deal because the neighbors sometimes spy back from across the street with a pair of binoculars.

The other issue that hasn't been raised much, is that I think the EU is rightfully concerned that the US isn't using all this spying just to fight terrorism or engage in legitimate national security.  I think the bigger concern is that what's really being sought is information that gives the US a leg up in trade and economic matters, and that such information isn't being used for national security but instead being used for financial gain.  In the worst case, it's probably suspected that some of this information is also finding its way out of the government and into the hands of connected private US corporations, giving them a leg up in EU markets as well.
 
2013-07-01 11:06:33 AM  

AdamK: The Stealth Hippopotamus: After the Russia and China thing the EU was just feeling left out. Kind of like "arnt we important enough to be spied on?!" thing.

well more to the point, most of the spying was on Germany's economic centers

the rest of Europe being outraged is dumb, but Germany has a legit reason to complain



And if you take history into account; we should always keep a close eye on Germany.
 
2013-07-01 11:18:47 AM  
Snowdenman melting from the inside,
Falcon spirals to the ground
This could be the biggest sky
So bloody red, tomorrows clouds
A little piece of you,
A little piece in me will die
This could be a miracle
 
2013-07-01 11:19:17 AM  

Nana's Vibrator: Does anyone get the feeling the US is about to out a few Europeans spying on the US and ask what the problem is?


This.

The spying thing... well, everyone does it. I'm sure some of my info is at a data center in some other country.

That being said, the US government has done an insanely bad job at handling this whole mess.
 
2013-07-01 11:22:20 AM  
Europe, thank you.  I don't yet know how effective it will be, but thank you all the same.
 
2013-07-01 11:25:40 AM  
"I was always sure that dictatorships, some authoritarian systems, tried to listen ... but that measures like that are now practiced by an ally, by a friend, that is shocking, if it is true," Schulz said in an interview with France 2.

You shouldn't expect your friends to be any better than dictatorships or authoritarian regimes, I guess.

I mean, this is the US we're talking about.
 
2013-07-01 11:29:15 AM  

hasty ambush: I am sure at least some of them (the UK, France and Germany at a minimum) to be spying on us.


Do you think they have the same capacity for espionage as the US?

This is kinda like saying "Most everyone has a military, so it's cool if ours is the biggest, most obtrusive one on the planet, right?"
 
2013-07-01 11:31:56 AM  

DerAppie: Mr. Right: Actually, the EU is behaving more like a cheating wife who finds lipstick on her husband's collar.  If there is any country out there who believes that every other country out there isn't spying on them or trying to, we have a new standard for adamant ignorance.

The problem is that a form of etiquette has been broken. By leaking the fact that spying happens the respective governments have to act surprised and offended. They'll never be re-elected if they go on television with the proclamation "WTF did you expect them to do? Did you actually suspect things didn't work this way? It isn't as if we aren't collecting information about them."


Stupid rubes, not understanding how governance really works, thinking that they have some say in it.
 
2013-07-01 11:32:11 AM  

sendtodave: "I was always sure that dictatorships, some authoritarian systems, tried to listen ... but that measures like that are now practiced by an ally, by a friend, that is shocking, if it is true," Schulz said in an interview with France 2.

You shouldn't expect your friends to be any better than dictatorships or authoritarian regimes, I guess.

I mean, this is the US we're talking about.


Europeans are insanely naive if they honestly think like that.
 
2013-07-01 11:32:28 AM  

sendtodave: hasty ambush: I am sure at least some of them (the UK, France and Germany at a minimum) to be spying on us.

Do you think they have the same capacity for espionage as the US?

This is kinda like saying "Most everyone has a military, so it's cool if ours is the biggest, most obtrusive one on the planet, right?"


The Israelis do, yes.  Most of the EU as well - Germany, France, Italy, England all have very sophisticated intelligence/information gathering practices/capabilities.
 
2013-07-01 11:34:57 AM  
lh4.googleusercontent.com
 
2013-07-01 11:35:21 AM  

positronica: I keep seeing people defend the US's actions here by saying, "It's no big deal.  Everyone is doing it.", but are they really?  The EU members don't have an intelligence apparatus anywhere on the scale of what the US has.  The US's foreign policy dominance also allows it to essentially set the stage for diplomatic encounters, allowing it to create it's own opportunities for espionage.  It's kind of like the one rich neighbor on the block getting caught installing hidden HD cameras in everyone else's homes and then saying it's no big deal because the neighbors sometimes spy back from across the street with a pair of binoculars.

The other issue that hasn't been raised much, is that I think the EU is rightfully concerned that the US isn't using all this spying just to fight terrorism or engage in legitimate national security.  I think the bigger concern is that what's really being sought is information that gives the US a leg up in trade and economic matters, and that such information isn't being used for national security but instead being used for financial gain.  In the worst case, it's probably suspected that some of this information is also finding its way out of the government and into the hands of connected private US corporations, giving them a leg up in EU markets as well.


I like you.  Or, at least, the cut of your jib.

From the responses I've been getting lately, I don't really know if that will help or hurt your argument.

But "Everybody violates the trust of others, we just can violate it more" isn't a winning argument.  Sorry Kerry, apologists.
 
2013-07-01 11:37:33 AM  

Alonjar: rikkitikkitavi: It's fairly well understood that everyone is "spying" on everyone at that level. I'm not sure what all the public hullah-balloo is over, quite honest. Countries do it, corporations do it, everyone.  If you didn't, you'd be a fool.  It's information gathering.

The EU gets to take some free shots at the US in public, and we cant put up any kind of a defense.  So they are.  Nothing will really change in the real world, I mean its not like we're going to stop bugging them or anything.  Its just passive aggressive behavior from people who dont have much real power in the world these days, to be frank.


Compared to who?

The EU is the worlds largest economy, is the worlds economic center, and has the shadow of the Soviet Union removed from it which it's also utilizing to act proactively millitary.

I just see yours, and others, posts as USA USA USA; AMERICA; fark YEAH. A circlejerk basicly to something that's not based in reality.
 
2013-07-01 11:38:37 AM  

sendtodave: positronica: I keep seeing people defend the US's actions here by saying, "It's no big deal.  Everyone is doing it.", but are they really?  The EU members don't have an intelligence apparatus anywhere on the scale of what the US has.  The US's foreign policy dominance also allows it to essentially set the stage for diplomatic encounters, allowing it to create it's own opportunities for espionage.  It's kind of like the one rich neighbor on the block getting caught installing hidden HD cameras in everyone else's homes and then saying it's no big deal because the neighbors sometimes spy back from across the street with a pair of binoculars.

The other issue that hasn't been raised much, is that I think the EU is rightfully concerned that the US isn't using all this spying just to fight terrorism or engage in legitimate national security.  I think the bigger concern is that what's really being sought is information that gives the US a leg up in trade and economic matters, and that such information isn't being used for national security but instead being used for financial gain.  In the worst case, it's probably suspected that some of this information is also finding its way out of the government and into the hands of connected private US corporations, giving them a leg up in EU markets as well.

I like you.  Or, at least, the cut of your jib.

From the responses I've been getting lately, I don't really know if that will help or hurt your argument.

But "Everybody violates the trust of others, we just can violate it more" isn't a winning argument.  Sorry Kerry, apologists.


Problem is, if you don't violate the trust of others at all, you're going to find yourself at a distinct disadvantage of those who do... and that's everyone.

While I'm sure that the Europeans don't have an intelligence infrastructure like that of the US (with the probable exception of the UK), I'm fairly sure they do spy on Americans to some extent. Not just for national security, either. Ultimately, if they want this whole game to stop, every country on the planet will have to air its espionage dirty laundry... and politicians everywhere don't want to look bad, so that won't happen.
 
2013-07-01 11:38:48 AM  

sendtodave: hasty ambush: I am sure at least some of them (the UK, France and Germany at a minimum) to be spying on us.

Do you think they have the same capacity for espionage as the US?


Ah, yes. We aren't talking about multi-billion dollar aircraft carriers here. Computers aren't that expensive any more and it's more about programming than the machine itself. If you have the right people with the right computer skills, you can spy on anyone.
 
2013-07-01 11:39:52 AM  

rikkitikkitavi: The Israelis do, yes. Most of the EU as well - Germany, France, Italy, England all have very sophisticated intelligence/information gathering practices/capabilities.


I don't think people -- allies -- would be particularly surprised to find out Mossad was spying on them.  Israel is just not a fark giving country.

England is 50/50.  They give a fark if they have to.

Continental Europe probably restrict themselves on this kind of thing, because they do tend to give a fark.

Shouldn't we be more of a fark giving country?
 
2013-07-01 11:40:57 AM  

spawn73: Alonjar: rikkitikkitavi: It's fairly well understood that everyone is "spying" on everyone at that level. I'm not sure what all the public hullah-balloo is over, quite honest. Countries do it, corporations do it, everyone.  If you didn't, you'd be a fool.  It's information gathering.

The EU gets to take some free shots at the US in public, and we cant put up any kind of a defense.  So they are.  Nothing will really change in the real world, I mean its not like we're going to stop bugging them or anything.  Its just passive aggressive behavior from people who dont have much real power in the world these days, to be frank.

Compared to who?

The EU is the worlds largest economy, is the worlds economic center, and has the shadow of the Soviet Union removed from it which it's also utilizing to act proactively millitary.

I just see yours, and others, posts as USA USA USA; AMERICA; fark YEAH. A circlejerk basicly to something that's not based in reality.


My follow Americans just aren't getting it and I don't know how to help, so I'm just going to hold their beer and watch.
 
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