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(My Fox Phoenix)   18 Firefighters confirmed dead battling Arizona wildfire (article updated)   (myfoxphoenix.com) divider line 341
    More: News, Yarnell Hill, Tonto National Forest, Wildfires in Arizona  
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8421 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jun 2013 at 11:20 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-01 12:59:33 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: If these people were killed trying to save summer cabins that were surrounded by "decorative" scrub and trees, then fark the homeowners.

Nobody should die trying to save a cabin. Let it burn.

/high temp and high winds are a lethal combination.
/i wonder if these were prison crews.


Not many summer homes in Yarnell. Mostly retirees and ranch workers I think.

The crew was the Granite Mountain Hotshots - nothing like a prison crew.
 
2013-07-01 12:59:40 AM  

Daedalus27: There is the theory of letting smaller fires burn to help the natural cycle and prevent fuel build up that leads to major fires.  The problem is there is increasing building in fire prone areas and all it takes is a change of conditions for a small fire to blow up and threaten homes and other structures.  If you let things burn, it can easily grow into something you can't stop and it may threaten structures soon.  However if you stop every little fire immeidately, over the course of years, fuel loads increase and then any fire becomes much more severe quickly.  Given the past few major fire incidents, this season it appears more aggressive suppression efforts are being used with more air and ground assets called in earlier to stop things at least in California.  While this can control things fast, it means more fire personnel are at risk and if conditions change, we can have tragedies like this.

There will be an investigation on what went wrong here.  Sadly it is a dangerous job and these horrible incidents do happen from time to time and sometimes there is simply nothing that could have been done.  We don't know if they were placed in a bad position, missed a deployment order, bad weather forcast, or simply bad luck and conditions changed due to localized weather that couldn't be predicted.  We will have to wait to find out the tragic events that led to this horrible outcome. The thoughts and prayers of people should go out to those fighting to save lives and property and the loved ones who will have to endure the loss of these firefighters.


Well said. Wiki has a good history as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wildfire_suppression_in_the_ Un ited_States

Appears it wasn't until the '60s that people in charge started understanding that fire is part of the natural process.
 
2013-07-01 01:00:14 AM  
Unfortunately, we'll have to get used to this shiat. F*ckin' heroes.

imageshack.com
 
2013-07-01 01:00:19 AM  

Snapper Carr: thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?

FIRE BAD


tree pretty :(
 
2013-07-01 01:01:50 AM  

Ivo Shandor: WippitGuud: You could buy some 415 Superscoopers from Canada.

As long as there is a lake nearby, this thing takes in 1,620 gallon of water in literally 10 seconds.

Or one of these, which holds 7200 gallons:
[i.imgur.com image 638x493]


Actually, that one may have been retired. There is a phase out of those older 1940s-60s aircraft.  The Department of Interior has been pushing to modernize the firefighting aircraft after several horrible accidents including this one where the planes wings folded during manuvers, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n06WNSS4tFs.  This means many tankers are being replaced but there is lower capacity at present while new designs are being certified and built.

There is a push for larger tankers like the DC-10, but that has issues as stated above needing larger airfields, operating conditions are more specific due to manuverability issues, and longer turn around times.  The DC-10 was under CA contract exclusively but due to the costs there is a national contract so it moves around to major incidents as needed. The 747 tanker by evergreen is still being tested as far as I know and hasn't been contracted out yet.  There are a couple more large converted civilian and cargo aircraft being tested for firefighting duties.
 
2013-07-01 01:02:39 AM  

JesseL: TheShavingofOccam123: If these people were killed trying to save summer cabins that were surrounded by "decorative" scrub and trees, then fark the homeowners.

Nobody should die trying to save a cabin. Let it burn.

/high temp and high winds are a lethal combination.
/i wonder if these were prison crews.

Not many summer homes in Yarnell. Mostly retirees and ranch workers I think.

The crew was the Granite Mountain Hotshots - nothing like a prison crew.


Thank you for the info. I couldn't load the link.
 
2013-07-01 01:04:35 AM  
They're saying 250 homes lost. I didn't even know Yarnell had 250 homes.

http://goo.gl/maps/6Cdmj
 
2013-07-01 01:06:16 AM  

JesseL: They're saying 250 homes lost. I didn't even know Yarnell had 250 homes.

http://goo.gl/maps/6Cdmj


Yikes :(
 
2013-07-01 01:06:47 AM  

Knucklepopper: kombi: Knucklepopper: kombi: ElizaDoolittle: ongbok: ElizaDoolittle: kombi: Im going to assume it was like the incident in California. Mexican radio station blocked there radios and they did not get the pullout order. Tried to get out and burned up in there truck. But again just assuming. something like that.

So the Mexicans were to blame? Listen to me, you toad, if THEIR (yes, that's how you spell it correctly) radios could be blocked by any Mexican radio station, the fault lies with the FD, not any Mexican radio station.

Wow. People will find any way possible to throw the blame at Mexicans, or any minority, won't they?

Apparently some will, but forget them.  I shouldn't have gotten so angry. Respect the dead; respect their families, and the loss they are experiencing. Show compassion for the children who have lost a parent and the spouses who have lost a partner.

I love how nowadays you mention something that happened. And give the facts but all of a sudden,...RACIST. I tell something that is true. How some fire fighters died in San Diego County. But no RACIST. I did not blame Mexicans. The article said it was caused by lightning. Have no reason not to believe that.

I think the point in question is your claim that Mexican radio stations "blocked" their radios.

It did. See our biggest radio stations. Nicknamed flamethrower broadcast at 50,000 watts. They have no limit. Wolfgang Jack broadcasted on AM from TJ and covered the whole US and parts of Canada on 1,000,000 Watts. It just overloaded there radios and they did not get the pullout order. It happened.

Radio is a biatch sometimes. Atmospheric condition's, weather, You name it. It will effect it. And it does not have to be on the same freq. Think of it this way. Your driving down the road. Turn the radio to am and you hear a buzz or hum from the engine. Same concept.

Citation, please. And not to Wolfman Jack but to your claim about those firefighters' deaths.


Looking. It was October of 03. There where 2 huge fires in socal at the time. One from Big Bear to Ventura County and one from Mexico to north of Temecula. Oh and the one In SD county was caused by a hunter launching a signal flare after getting lost.
 
2013-07-01 01:07:21 AM  

thisdaydreamer: This is the largest [loss] of of firefighters since 9/11 and I'm a dumbass for wondering what could have gone so horribly wrong as to wipe out an entire fire department?


I might be able to make that statement stronger.

There's a small chance that this is the largest number of firefighters to perish in a single wildfire. I looked through the Wikipedia list of wildfires for "firefighter", and the highest number of deaths listed under that term was 18, in a 1971 Japan fire. It's totally possible Wikipedia is missing something or uses a different term or something, but... it's also possible that it isn't.

Actually, barring 9/11, I can't think of  anysingle event that had a higher firefighter toll. Not that I'd really expect to, but... yeah, this is bad.
 
2013-07-01 01:09:09 AM  
farking Christ. This isn't real, right? This is another FARK bad joke?
 
2013-07-01 01:09:46 AM  

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: It's 19 now - the entire team is confirmed dead.


Oh, and fark you channel 12 news who decided to make an hour long show out of a breaking story with no details.  We've now had a demonstration of a fire shelter. And alame Q&A session with a senator about whether sequestration has anything to do with this.


The media creates a monstrous clusterf*ck in times like this. The fiasco they caused with the Esperanza fatalities in October 2006... well, I'll just stop there. Let's just say they're no help 99.5% of the time.
 
2013-07-01 01:09:54 AM  

evaned: I can't think of anysingle event that had a higher firefighter toll.


The Big Burn did
 
2013-07-01 01:12:22 AM  

HeadLever: evaned: I can't think of anysingle event that had a higher firefighter toll.

The Big Burn did


I think PBS did a documentary on the big burn. Fascinating story.
 
2013-07-01 01:12:48 AM  

JesseL: TheShavingofOccam123: If these people were killed trying to save summer cabins that were surrounded by "decorative" scrub and trees, then fark the homeowners.

Nobody should die trying to save a cabin. Let it burn.

/high temp and high winds are a lethal combination.
/i wonder if these were prison crews.

Not many summer homes in Yarnell. Mostly retirees and ranch workers I think.

The crew was the Granite Mountain Hotshots - nothing like a prison crew.


Don't knock the prison crews.  They are godsend and a very budget friendly resource that does difficult jobs freeing up the civilian firefighters for other tasks.  They are a valuable resource for many states that simply wouldn't be able to offer the same level of service to fight fires, do search and rescue work, and engage in flood relief.  They may be prisoners, but they work their butts off doing a very difficult and dangerous job.  All while they earn a dollar or so an hour and earn some good time credits to reduce their sentences which is a bargain.
 
2013-07-01 01:13:08 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?

They have them. We use them out here in CA by the ocean. The problem is you need not only big planes, but big runways, and also big lakes with enough room for the big planes to fly down and scoop up a hold full of water without losing enough airspeed to take off again. There's room over an ocean; often not much over a lake. Also, big planes use a lot of expensive fuel--is your county wealthy enough to afford it? L.A. County almost couldn't.


BiblioTech: Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?

For the Black Forest Fire here they had support from the National Guard, Peterson Air Force base, the Air Force Academy, Fort Carson, Buckley Air Force base, etc. with Chinook helicopters, C-130s, and the like.  The big DC-10 they brought in is privately owned IIRC.


WippitGuud: Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?

You could buy some 415 Superscoopers from Canada.

As long as there is a lake nearby, this thing takes in 1,620 gallon of water in literally 10 seconds.

Thanks for the info, gang. Still, the entire situation sucks...Sometimes logistics can only take you so far, I guess...
 
2013-07-01 01:13:09 AM  
Damn.
 
2013-07-01 01:14:41 AM  
This guy runs a site dedicated to wild land fire. Lots of information for you guys
http://wildfiretoday.com/
 
2013-07-01 01:15:27 AM  

Daedalus27: Actually, that one may have been retired. There is a phase out of those older 1940s-60s aircraft.


There's one still flying (based in Port Alberni BC), although the province recently announced that they are not renewing its contract.
 
2013-07-01 01:15:49 AM  

Daedalus27: JesseL: TheShavingofOccam123: If these people were killed trying to save summer cabins that were surrounded by "decorative" scrub and trees, then fark the homeowners.

Nobody should die trying to save a cabin. Let it burn.

/high temp and high winds are a lethal combination.
/i wonder if these were prison crews.

Not many summer homes in Yarnell. Mostly retirees and ranch workers I think.

The crew was the Granite Mountain Hotshots - nothing like a prison crew.

Don't knock the prison crews.  They are godsend and a very budget friendly resource that does difficult jobs freeing up the civilian firefighters for other tasks.  They are a valuable resource for many states that simply wouldn't be able to offer the same level of service to fight fires, do search and rescue work, and engage in flood relief.  They may be prisoners, but they work their butts off doing a very difficult and dangerous job.  All while they earn a dollar or so an hour and earn some good time credits to reduce their sentences which is a bargain.


No slight intended toward prison crews. Just clarifying that that's not what these guys were.
 
2013-07-01 01:18:33 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: I think PBS did a documentary on the big burn.


Not sure about PBS, but Outdoor Idaho did a show on it.  Of course, being from Idaho, Pulaski is one of our folk heros.
 
2013-07-01 01:19:04 AM  
Per Gawker: "deadliest wildfire in 80 years, and the worst loss of life for firefighters since 9/11"
 
2013-07-01 01:19:26 AM  
Holy crap. The Great Chicago Fire, the Peshtigo Fire and the Great Michigan Fire all happened on the same day.

1700 died in the Peshtigo, at minimum 500 in the Michigan fire and another 300 in the Chicago fire.

That was not a good day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wildfires#North_America
 
2013-07-01 01:20:30 AM  

HeadLever: evaned: I can't think of anysingle event that had a higher firefighter toll.

The Big Burn did


Thanks. I've added that to the list of firefighters page. :-) Like I said, I'm not even remotely surprised that I didn't know of something.

Actually there are probably a couple of others on that list (e.g. "a firestorm that caused the most deaths by fire in United States history, killing as many as 1,500, possibly as many as 2,500") that would count, but don't have explicit counts for firefighters, even in the actual article.
 
2013-07-01 01:21:18 AM  
Hot shots have to be bad ass, here. I mean they are humping a lot of gear in really hot weather with little water and they are trying to create fire lines with what they have.

I hiked on Saturday when it was 118 and I only carried water. It was so damn hot I had a hard time breathing. These guys are in that shiat with their gear, digging and clearing brush, swinging axes AND near flames that are even hotter.

They will be missed.

This link shows the drought and how bad it is getting. Water is everything out here. The reason for south wilderness is because of lack of water.

http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/
 
2013-07-01 01:23:07 AM  
"So much wilderness"

Stupid autocorrect.
 
2013-07-01 01:24:14 AM  

SilentStrider: Damn.


Just watched a episode of Mighty Planes on Smithsonian channel. There are only 2 of thoughs planes left. The rest are being used for parts.
 
2013-07-01 01:25:39 AM  
Time to call in the big boys:

www.dannyclisham.com
 
2013-07-01 01:25:49 AM  
Ivo Shandor

WippitGuud: You could buy some 415 Superscoopers from Canada.

As long as there is a lake nearby, this thing takes in 1,620 gallon of water in literally 10 seconds.

Or one of these, which holds 7200 gallons:


Sometimes just one small helicopter is all you need.
 
2013-07-01 01:26:05 AM  
I live in Kingman, Arizona. I just went outside five minutes ago and watched a fire in the Hualapai Mountains crest the summit. Lots of houses up there, my sis-in-law's father's included. This is gonna be an ugly Summer.

/111 degrees today
 
2013-07-01 01:28:07 AM  
Went hiking in Mann Gulch a week ago:

drewblood.com

Very sad that the cycle has to continue.
 
2013-07-01 01:29:31 AM  
"These aren't the 2 firefighters who died."

Then why show them!
 
2013-07-01 01:30:41 AM  

T Baggins: brantgoose: Not including the 19 deaths reported in Arizona, there have been 43 firefighter fatalities reported so far in 2013, according to the U.S. Fire Administration. A total of 83 firefighters died last year while on duty.


Let's not forget the volunteers from West, TX.
 
2013-07-01 01:31:06 AM  
It too late now, but Yarnell needs Shields. It's like peanut butter with no jelly.
 
2013-07-01 01:31:18 AM  

eddievercetti: "These aren't the 2 firefighters who died."

Then why show them!


But how else would I know what a firefighter looks like? Do they have tentacles? Antlers? Gigantic balls?
 
2013-07-01 01:31:29 AM  

Nadie_AZ: Hot shots have to be bad ass, here. I mean they are humping a lot of gear in really hot weather with little water and they are trying to create fire lines with what they have.

I hiked on Saturday when it was 118 and I only carried water. It was so damn hot I had a hard time breathing. These guys are in that shiat with their gear, digging and clearing brush, swinging axes AND near flames that are even hotter.


I can't imagine doing that. Growing up in Tempe, I remember the blast furnace that is summer for: not being able to touch the seatbelt until the AC got going, the swimming pool being the temp of bath water, toddlers going to the hospital for burns after falling on sidewalks. Those tasks you described, yeah, absolutely hellish.
 
2013-07-01 01:32:42 AM  
"One of the last fail safe methods that a firefighter can do under those conditions is literally to dig as much as they can down and cover themselves with a protective - kinda looks like a foil type- fire-resistant material - with the desire, the hope at least, is that the fire will burn over the top of them and they can survive it," Fraijo said.
"Under certain conditions there's usually only sometimes a 50 percent chance that they survive," he said. "It's an extreme measure that's taken under the absolute worst conditions."
 
2013-07-01 01:33:06 AM  
This is an article about the Granite Mountain Hotshots from last year: http://cronkitenewsonline.com/2012/04/for-hotshot-fire-crews-training - can-be-a-matter-of-life-and-death/
 
2013-07-01 01:35:11 AM  

studebaker hoch: This is a forest fire

0:00 start of video showing arrival of radiant heat pulse from fire behind camera.
0:17 First flame appears on forest floor.  Area ignition, similar to flashover, begins.
0:40 Fire hits peak heat of 850 degrees C and begins to cool.
1:35 direct sunlight on the forest floor, the fire has passed through.

A minute and a half, start to finish.

A man would have been dead in fifteen seconds.


That is ... sobering.
 
2013-07-01 01:35:57 AM  
farm3.staticflickr.com

We have watched plenty of helicopters dipping into the lake - always a thrill - and have a great team of
Hot Shots up the hill...but watching the Coulson tanker was incredible. Loved having the Hawaii Mars on
Lake Elsinore in '07 - and such a feeling of security! She fought a lot of fires that year, and you always
knew when she was taking off. Awesome.

farm3.staticflickr.com
 
2013-07-01 01:36:40 AM  

Prometheus_Unbound: Just saw that on the news. So sad. People like that are why there's a hero tag.

RIP


Yet we gush with praise over our volunteer military but ignore the daily sacrifice of firefighters, EMTs, cops, etc. who put their life on the line every day of their entire careers which my span 30-40 years not just some 4-6 year period in their youth they signed up for to pay for school or to escape East Bumfark, Flyover State.
 
2013-07-01 01:36:46 AM  
Get used to it, boys and girls, it's only going to get worse as time rolls on.
 
2013-07-01 01:37:29 AM  

WippitGuud: HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.

So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?


No. he's just an MMQB douchebag that would be the first to criticize not fighting it over the death of a resident that didn't evacuate.  He's too stoopid to understand that not one firefighter died to save a tree or a house.  A despicable moron.
 
2013-07-01 01:38:32 AM  
lh4.googleusercontent.com

This one is from 2011, there are more hi-res pics here:
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/prescott/home/?cid=stelprdb5347883
 
2013-07-01 01:45:04 AM  

thisisyourbrainonFark: studebaker hoch: This is a forest fire

0:00 start of video showing arrival of radiant heat pulse from fire behind camera.
0:17 First flame appears on forest floor.  Area ignition, similar to flashover, begins.
0:40 Fire hits peak heat of 850 degrees C and begins to cool.
1:35 direct sunlight on the forest floor, the fire has passed through.

A minute and a half, start to finish.

A man would have been dead in fifteen seconds.

That is ... sobering.


Yeah.

All the assholes here saying "Who do we blame!?" really have to watch this on a loop until they get it.

18 guys can easily be incinerated or suffocated by a forest fire with a little gust of wind behind it, even if they do everything right. Fire's awesome, as in that it's worthy of awe, and terrible.
 
2013-07-01 01:46:01 AM  

BiblioTech: buzzcut73: RIP to these guys.In years past I've done structural firefighting, ARFF, and HAZMAT, but wildland firefighting? Nope, even I'm too much of a chickenshiat for that.

The ones I can't even begin to fathom are smokejumpers.  What kind of person do you have to be to jump out of a plane into a fire?


Heroes.
 
2013-07-01 01:46:52 AM  

the801: here wouldn't BE people dying in fires if you people would not go where the FIRE IS!


I have some friends that have been living in Colorado for the last few years.  After seeing them bug out each and every year during fire season, I wondering if maybe building thinly spread out suburbs in the 'country' is such a good idea.
 
2013-07-01 01:49:36 AM  
From my admittedly limited understanding, forest fires are both natural and important to the environment in that part of the country, and yet they're actively suppressed?

And then when fires do happen due to drought, bad things happen due to an abundance of old wood and brush that normally would have been burned off in a small fire every other year or so...

Or am I reading the situation wrong?
 
2013-07-01 01:50:39 AM  
I'm on a fire northwest of there. There's no report out yet, but I'm guessing that the same thunderstorm downdrafts that drove our guys off the hill are what killed them.

Situational awareness and LCES should have saved them, though. This is a shiatty day for the fire community.
 
2013-07-01 01:50:55 AM  

gibbon1: the801: here wouldn't BE people dying in fires if you people would not go where the FIRE IS!

I have some friends that have been living in Colorado for the last few years.  After seeing them bug out each and every year during fire season, I wondering if maybe building thinly spread out suburbs in the 'country' is such a good idea.


Do live somewhere completely protected from natural disasters? Honest question. I live in the mountains of Colorado and worry about wildfire, but it still beats city life.
 
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