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(My Fox Phoenix)   18 Firefighters confirmed dead battling Arizona wildfire (article updated)   (myfoxphoenix.com) divider line 341
    More: News, Yarnell Hill, Tonto National Forest, Wildfires in Arizona  
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8400 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jun 2013 at 11:20 PM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-01 12:32:07 AM

thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?


The Monsoon is beginning in a hellish-hot airmass.  Any convection (storms) that develop over the higher terrain will create awfully strong and localized outflows.  And little rain.  A very sad confluence of events.  jeez.
 
2013-07-01 12:32:11 AM
fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net
 
2013-07-01 12:33:03 AM

brantgoose: one third of Americans experienced 100F heat for ten or more days. TEN OR MORE DAYS IN A ROW.

Global warming is real


Summer is hot. Time to panic.
 
2013-07-01 12:33:22 AM
Holy f•ck.

"Reichling said the 19 firefighters were found in an area that also had 19 fire shelters deployed. Some of those found were inside a shelter, which is typically used as a last resort to withstand the fire as it blows over. Some of the crew members were found outside the shelters.

Officials said 18 of the deceased were members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots team. It's unknown what fire crew the 19th firefighter was a member of. The firefighters are part of a team that is typically sent in first to help cut off the fire, Reichling said."


www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130630crews- fighting-small-fires-around-Arizona.html

That's a bad scene.

Firefighters. They went in when everyone else evacuated.
 
2013-07-01 12:33:44 AM

T Baggins: WippitGuud: HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.

So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?

The implication was he'd prefer houses in fire-prone wilderness areas be designed to withstand wildfires, which is not as outlandish as you're characterizing it.


I'm not trying to be outlandish. Even if the construction is fire-proof, they would just be burnt-out shells.
And you get the same arguement in tornado areas, hurricane areas, flood-prone areas... so like most of the country.
 
2013-07-01 12:34:37 AM

HempHead: HeadLever: HempHead: 19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

No it is not and no one is saying that.

Why were they risking their lives to put out a fire if not to save houses? People were evacuated long ago.

 When big fires get going, they generate their own winds, blasting embers and sparks miles from the actual fire. The more fuel you give it, the bigger it gets, the faster the winds, and so on. Should it get from a relatively rural area into a more heavily-populated one, the fire will go absolutely nuts.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_Firestorm_of_1991

Once a firestorm really gets going in a heavily-populated area, you get things like Chicago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

Little towns nearby were wiped off the map.

Also, keep in mind that after these huge fires, bodies are found in house remains. There are always confused people, kids, old or very ill people who, for whatever reason, don't get out.
 
2013-07-01 12:34:48 AM

Chinchillazilla: Honest question: why even fight wildfires? I mean, while they're in the wild. Obviously, I'm for preventing houses from burning, but couldn't they just hang out around the houses they thought were at risk and put the fire out only when it got too close? Forests are designed to burn periodically, so why even bother?


That's pretty much what they do. They focus on containing the fire with a priority on threatened structures.
 
2013-07-01 12:35:18 AM

JesseL: [fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net image 350x263]


Thanks, guys. Rest well.
 
2013-07-01 12:35:41 AM

Chinchillazilla: Honest question: why even fight wildfires? I mean, while they're in the wild. Obviously, I'm for preventing houses from burning, but couldn't they just hang out around the houses they thought were at risk and put the fire out only when it got too close? Forests are designed to burn periodically, so why even bother?


If you go to google maps and look up Yarnell, Google has put a dotted line around where the fire is, compared to where the town is.

I don't think the town is there anymore.
 
2013-07-01 12:35:55 AM
It's 19 now - the entire team is confirmed dead.


Oh, and fark you channel 12 news who decided to make an hour long show out of a breaking story with no details.  We've now had a demonstration of a fire shelter. And alame Q&A session with a senator about whether sequestration has anything to do with this.
 
2013-07-01 12:37:57 AM

Gyrfalcon: Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?

They have them. We use them out here in CA by the ocean. The problem is you need not only big planes, but big runways, and also big lakes with enough room for the big planes to fly down and scoop up a hold full of water without losing enough airspeed to take off again. There's room over an ocean; often not much over a lake. Also, big planes use a lot of expensive fuel--is your county wealthy enough to afford it? L.A. County almost couldn't.


True. But, there is also at least one converted dc-10. Sky harbor , i am pretty sure, can handle that size of aircraft. As far as cost goes, I think we spent more leasing the damn super scoopers than buying one outright. The problem is- people have short attention spans, and time comes for a bill to buy the proper equipment- everyone all of a sudden forgets what happened just a few months ago, so it goes nowhere / gets voted down.
Humans are stupid.
 
2013-07-01 12:38:54 AM
Very sad indeed.
 
2013-07-01 12:39:13 AM

Chinchillazilla: Honest question: why even fight wildfires? I mean, while they're in the wild. Obviously, I'm for preventing houses from burning, but couldn't they just hang out around the houses they thought were at risk and put the fire out only when it got too close? Forests are designed to burn periodically, so why even bother?


see my response @ 2013-06-30 11:46:47 PM . One of many reasons.
 
2013-07-01 12:39:17 AM

HeadLever: ArcadianRefugee: I drove through Arizona once. What the hell is there to burn?

Arizona has a good number of forests.  It is not all Phoenix.

[www.uygardergi.com image 456x374]


OK, I'll give you that possibility; they don't have too many roads through that kind of stuff that I went through.

What I did see? Dust devil, cactus, dust, dust, dust, sand, dust, dust, dust, sand, cactus, dust devil, another car...
 
2013-07-01 12:42:05 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: brantgoose: one third of Americans experienced 100F heat for ten or more days. TEN OR MORE DAYS IN A ROW.

Global warming is real

Summer is hot. Time to panic.


So's your wife?
 
2013-07-01 12:42:33 AM

ArcadianRefugee: HeadLever: ArcadianRefugee: I drove through Arizona once. What the hell is there to burn?

Arizona has a good number of forests.  It is not all Phoenix.

[www.uygardergi.com image 456x374]

OK, I'll give you that possibility; they don't have too many roads through that kind of stuff that I went through.

What I did see? Dust devil, cactus, dust, dust, dust, sand, dust, dust, dust, sand, cactus, dust devil, another car...


Possibility? It's the reality. Learned to ski in Arizona.
 
2013-07-01 12:42:47 AM
The men that fight those wildfires are among the best specimens humanity has to offer, both in strength of body and mind.
It's very sad to see them suffer such casualties.
RIP.
 
2013-07-01 12:42:54 AM

alienated: Gyrfalcon: Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?

They have them. We use them out here in CA by the ocean. The problem is you need not only big planes, but big runways, and also big lakes with enough room for the big planes to fly down and scoop up a hold full of water without losing enough airspeed to take off again. There's room over an ocean; often not much over a lake. Also, big planes use a lot of expensive fuel--is your county wealthy enough to afford it? L.A. County almost couldn't.

True. But, there is also at least one converted dc-10. Sky harbor , i am pretty sure, can handle that size of aircraft. As far as cost goes, I think we spent more leasing the damn super scoopers than buying one outright. The problem is- people have short attention spans, and time comes for a bill to buy the proper equipment- everyone all of a sudden forgets what happened just a few months ago, so it goes nowhere / gets voted down.
Humans are stupid.


You need more than a big runway, you need the infrastructure to load the suppressant onto the aircraft. California has bases at a lot of airports (most for smaller aircraft than the DC-10) with that infrastructure already in place. I'm not sure about Arizona.
 
2013-07-01 12:43:27 AM

WippitGuud: You could buy some 415 Superscoopers from Canada.

As long as there is a lake nearby, this thing takes in 1,620 gallon of water in literally 10 seconds.


Or one of these, which holds 7200 gallons:
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-01 12:43:33 AM

doglover: JesseL: [fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net image 350x263]

Thanks, guys. Rest well.


Amen.
 
2013-07-01 12:43:49 AM

Redwing: AZcentral.com live video just showed pic of the 19 firefighters in a group photo. I thought next of kin had to be notified beforehand, and 19 families couldnt have been contacted that quick.

PS: 108 degrees!


Several sources have said that every single member of Prescott's wildfire team died. Once the number of dead and the fact that they were from Prescott became public, so did their identities.
 
2013-07-01 12:43:57 AM

ArcadianRefugee: HeadLever: ArcadianRefugee: I drove through Arizona once. What the hell is there to burn?

Arizona has a good number of forests.  It is not all Phoenix.

[www.uygardergi.com image 456x374]

OK, I'll give you that possibility; they don't have too many roads through that kind of stuff that I went through.

What I did see? Dust devil, cactus, dust, dust, dust, sand, dust, dust, dust, sand, cactus, dust devil, another car...


You have to get pretty far off the interstates and away from Tucson and Phoenix to see the nicer sides of the state.
 
2013-07-01 12:44:02 AM

Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?


For the Black Forest Fire here they had support from the National Guard, Peterson Air Force base, the Air Force Academy, Fort Carson, Buckley Air Force base, etc. with Chinook helicopters, C-130s, and the like.  The big DC-10 they brought in is privately owned IIRC.
 
2013-07-01 12:44:32 AM

God-is-a-Taco: The men that fight those wildfires are among the best specimens humanity has to offer, both in strength of body and mind.
It's very sad to see them suffer such casualties.
RIP.


* wimmins, too :)
 
2013-07-01 12:46:00 AM

thisdaydreamer: Redwing: AZcentral.com live video just showed pic of the 19 firefighters in a group photo. I thought next of kin had to be notified beforehand, and 19 families couldnt have been contacted that quick.

PS: 108 degrees!

Several sources have said that every single member of Prescott's wildfire team died. Once the number of dead and the fact that they were from Prescott became public, so did their identities.


Okay thanks.
 
2013-07-01 12:46:13 AM

doglover: thisdaydreamer: doglover: thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?

Wildfires aren't called "tamefires" for a reason.

Nineteen lost at once is pretty farking extreme, even for a wildfire. The people in charge of those firefighters will have some very tough questions to answer.

Extreme?

Do you even Dresden?


And so it goes...
 
2013-07-01 12:46:47 AM
Thaaaaat was supposed to be a sad face. Thanx phone I don't understand.
 
2013-07-01 12:46:47 AM

thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?


Really?

Fire, dumbass.  Seriously - WTF?
 
2013-07-01 12:49:30 AM
There is the theory of letting smaller fires burn to help the natural cycle and prevent fuel build up that leads to major fires.  The problem is there is increasing building in fire prone areas and all it takes is a change of conditions for a small fire to blow up and threaten homes and other structures.  If you let things burn, it can easily grow into something you can't stop and it may threaten structures soon.  However if you stop every little fire immeidately, over the course of years, fuel loads increase and then any fire becomes much more severe quickly.  Given the past few major fire incidents, this season it appears more aggressive suppression efforts are being used with more air and ground assets called in earlier to stop things at least in California.  While this can control things fast, it means more fire personnel are at risk and if conditions change, we can have tragedies like this.

There will be an investigation on what went wrong here.  Sadly it is a dangerous job and these horrible incidents do happen from time to time and sometimes there is simply nothing that could have been done.  We don't know if they were placed in a bad position, missed a deployment order, bad weather forcast, or simply bad luck and conditions changed due to localized weather that couldn't be predicted.  We will have to wait to find out the tragic events that led to this horrible outcome. The thoughts and prayers of people should go out to those fighting to save lives and property and the loved ones who will have to endure the loss of these firefighters.
 
2013-07-01 12:49:47 AM

BiblioTech: Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?

For the Black Forest Fire here they had support from the National Guard, Peterson Air Force base, the Air Force Academy, Fort Carson, Buckley Air Force base, etc. with Chinook helicopters, C-130s, and the like.  The big DC-10 they brought in is privately owned IIRC.


They had all of that flying out of ABQ a couple of years back when there was a big fire up north of Santa Fe too.
IIRC, the DC-10 was working a fire up in northern NM again a couple of weeks ago (NM is on fire this year too, I think there are 4 or 5 going right now)

RIP to these guys.In years past I've done structural firefighting, ARFF, and HAZMAT, but wildland firefighting? Nope, even I'm too much of a chickenshiat for that.
 
2013-07-01 12:50:39 AM
They were from Prescott.  During the Press Conference, the Fire Chief said that some of the families were notified of their firefighters deaths by email, accidentally. Wow.
 
2013-07-01 12:50:50 AM
Spokeman at press conference just said that several families were notified inappropriately by media outlets before the officials were able to properly notify them.

Dick move, media!
 
2013-07-01 12:51:22 AM
 Oh shiat. That is awful. All those guys, gone. I feel so bad for their families.
 
2013-07-01 12:51:28 AM

BuckTurgidson: Yeah, right thread.


I'd give you a reasoned response but that side conversation is being deleted. And that's probably for the best, it isn't the right thread for that.

RIP firefighters.
 
2013-07-01 12:51:37 AM

Knucklepopper: kombi: ElizaDoolittle: ongbok: ElizaDoolittle: kombi: Im going to assume it was like the incident in California. Mexican radio station blocked there radios and they did not get the pullout order. Tried to get out and burned up in there truck. But again just assuming. something like that.

So the Mexicans were to blame? Listen to me, you toad, if THEIR (yes, that's how you spell it correctly) radios could be blocked by any Mexican radio station, the fault lies with the FD, not any Mexican radio station.

Wow. People will find any way possible to throw the blame at Mexicans, or any minority, won't they?

Apparently some will, but forget them.  I shouldn't have gotten so angry. Respect the dead; respect their families, and the loss they are experiencing. Show compassion for the children who have lost a parent and the spouses who have lost a partner.

I love how nowadays you mention something that happened. And give the facts but all of a sudden,...RACIST. I tell something that is true. How some fire fighters died in San Diego County. But no RACIST. I did not blame Mexicans. The article said it was caused by lightning. Have no reason not to believe that.

I think the point in question is your claim that Mexican radio stations "blocked" their radios.


It did. See our biggest radio stations. Nicknamed flamethrower broadcast at 50,000 watts. They have no limit. Wolfgang Jack broadcasted on AM from TJ and covered the whole US and parts of Canada on 1,000,000 Watts. It just overloaded there radios and they did not get the pullout order. It happened.

Radio is a biatch sometimes. Atmospheric condition's, weather, You name it. It will effect it. And it does not have to be on the same freq. Think of it this way. Your driving down the road. Turn the radio to am and you hear a buzz or hum from the engine. Same concept.
 
2013-07-01 12:52:25 AM

brantgoose: Not including the 19 deaths reported in Arizona, there have been 43 firefighter fatalities reported so far in 2013, according to the U.S. Fire Administration. A total of 83 firefighters died last year while on duty.


21 of last year's 83 deaths were from fighting fires. About a quarter died in traffic accidents, and half died of heart attacks or strokes...they were "on duty," but it's worth making a distinction between dying in the line of duty, and dying from eating too many donuts.
 
2013-07-01 12:52:41 AM

Redwing: Spokeman at press conference just said that several families were notified inappropriately by media outlets before the officials were able to properly notify them.

Dick move, media!


Oh ffs. My earlier comment was not aimed at reporters contacting family members who hadn't been notified. Dick move, indeed.
 
2013-07-01 12:53:40 AM
This is a forest fire

0:00 start of video showing arrival of radiant heat pulse from fire behind camera.
0:17 First flame appears on forest floor.  Area ignition, similar to flashover, begins.
0:40 Fire hits peak heat of 850 degrees C and begins to cool.
1:35 direct sunlight on the forest floor, the fire has passed through.

A minute and a half, start to finish.

A man would have been dead in fifteen seconds.
 
2013-07-01 12:54:34 AM
i1.ytimg.com
 
2013-07-01 12:54:58 AM
  Have many friends who work fighting forest fires here in BC, for both the government and private contractors. So sad to hear about this tragedy. Been to a few to many funerals for folks in this line of work. Much respect for all their efforts, condolences to their friends and families.
 
2013-07-01 12:54:59 AM
If these people were killed trying to save summer cabins that were surrounded by "decorative" scrub and trees, then fark the homeowners.

Nobody should die trying to save a cabin. Let it burn.

/high temp and high winds are a lethal combination.
/i wonder if these were prison crews.
 
2013-07-01 12:55:02 AM

gfid: thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?

Really?

Fire, dumbass.  Seriously - WTF?


This is the largest of of firefighters since 9/11 and I'm a dumbass for wondering what could have gone so horribly wrong as to wipe out an entire fire department?
 
2013-07-01 12:55:06 AM
The Hawaii Mars was here for a few summers. We have a few videos up here. What a team that is. There is a whole ground crew that goes with it. They saved our ass a few times.

Hawaii Mars
 
2013-07-01 12:55:10 AM

gfid: thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?

Really?

Fire, dumbass.  Seriously - WTF?


I think he meant tactic-wise.

Calm down. People say stupid shiat accidentally.

If he didn't mean that, then sorry, I'm a stupid.
 
2013-07-01 12:56:13 AM
*largest loss

Maybe time to walk away from the internet for the night.
 
2013-07-01 12:56:42 AM

kombi: Knucklepopper: kombi: ElizaDoolittle: ongbok: ElizaDoolittle: kombi: Im going to assume it was like the incident in California. Mexican radio station blocked there radios and they did not get the pullout order. Tried to get out and burned up in there truck. But again just assuming. something like that.

So the Mexicans were to blame? Listen to me, you toad, if THEIR (yes, that's how you spell it correctly) radios could be blocked by any Mexican radio station, the fault lies with the FD, not any Mexican radio station.

Wow. People will find any way possible to throw the blame at Mexicans, or any minority, won't they?

Apparently some will, but forget them.  I shouldn't have gotten so angry. Respect the dead; respect their families, and the loss they are experiencing. Show compassion for the children who have lost a parent and the spouses who have lost a partner.

I love how nowadays you mention something that happened. And give the facts but all of a sudden,...RACIST. I tell something that is true. How some fire fighters died in San Diego County. But no RACIST. I did not blame Mexicans. The article said it was caused by lightning. Have no reason not to believe that.

I think the point in question is your claim that Mexican radio stations "blocked" their radios.

It did. See our biggest radio stations. Nicknamed flamethrower broadcast at 50,000 watts. They have no limit. Wolfgang Jack broadcasted on AM from TJ and covered the whole US and parts of Canada on 1,000,000 Watts. It just overloaded there radios and they did not get the pullout order. It happened.

Radio is a biatch sometimes. Atmospheric condition's, weather, You name it. It will effect it. And it does not have to be on the same freq. Think of it this way. Your driving down the road. Turn the radio to am and you hear a buzz or hum from the engine. Same concept.


Citation, please. And not to Wolfman Jack but to your claim about those firefighters' deaths.
 
2013-07-01 12:57:21 AM

megarian: gfid: thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?

Really?

Fire, dumbass.  Seriously - WTF?

I think he meant tactic-wise.

Calm down. People say stupid shiat accidentally.

If he didn't mean that, then sorry, I'm a stupid.


Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant.
 
2013-07-01 12:57:58 AM

buzzcut73: RIP to these guys.In years past I've done structural firefighting, ARFF, and HAZMAT, but wildland firefighting? Nope, even I'm too much of a chickenshiat for that.


The ones I can't even begin to fathom are smokejumpers.  What kind of person do you have to be to jump out of a plane into a fire?
 
2013-07-01 12:58:26 AM
GD, and we thought out here when 14 fire fighters died on Storm King mountain (1994) at the city limits of Glenwood Springs, CO that was bad as it got. But 18 in one Hotshot company? That's tough to swallow.

www.durangoherald.com

That fire ran up their ravine so fast and so hot Prineville Hotshots along with jumpers from Missoula, McCall and Helitack could not run quick enough to escape or move laterally quick enough. With hellish winds roaring up the ravine like a hurricane and temperatures hot enough to set the very ground on fire they made the decision to shelter in their last resort aluminum and glass fiber 'shake and bake' survival tents. Afterwards it was determined they were incinerated.

These men and women deserve every possible respect we can muster. There are none like them. Tough sons of biatches all. (get me a kleenex) Some give all. Do not forget.
 
2013-07-01 12:59:11 AM
3.bp.blogspot.com

Metal roofs. Steel structures. No one died saving this house.

I guess it's just too expensive for some people.
 
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