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(My Fox Phoenix)   18 Firefighters confirmed dead battling Arizona wildfire (article updated)   (myfoxphoenix.com) divider line 341
    More: News, Yarnell Hill, Tonto National Forest, Wildfires in Arizona  
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8412 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jun 2013 at 11:20 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-01 12:07:06 AM
Damn...

Half flags all over the place.
 
2013-07-01 12:07:30 AM

HempHead: 19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.


No it is not and no one is saying that.
 
2013-07-01 12:07:54 AM
f*ck
 
2013-07-01 12:08:00 AM
I drove through Arizona once. What the hell is there to burn?

/i i am truley sorry for their lots
 
2013-07-01 12:09:00 AM

JesseL: WippitGuud: What is a "hotshot crew"

Firefighters trained to work in rough and remote areas.


... humping 100+ pounds of gear up and down the worst terrain in the nation in the hottest weather our continent offers in the middle of a wildfire with only their boots for escape for crap pay.

Navy SEALS of firefighting.
 
2013-07-01 12:09:01 AM
Did one summer as Forest Service volunteer crew. My hat's off.
 
2013-07-01 12:09:11 AM

ArcadianRefugee: I drove through Arizona once. What the hell is there to burn?

/i i am truley sorry for their lots


Has it been like 125 degrees in Arizona?
I'm pretty sure atmosphere burns at that temp.
 
2013-07-01 12:10:04 AM

doglover:

Wildfires aren't called "tamefires" for a reason.

Famous Thamas: Wildfires are called that for a reason.



The stupid, it burns...wildfires are not called that because of their behavior but because of their location. They happen IN THE WILD. Believe it or not the word didn't originate with forest fires but had to do with the propagation of skin conditions by plants such as poison ivy. The rash burned and one got it while out in nature hence "wild fire"; it didn't take on its common meaning today until centuries later.
 
2013-07-01 12:10:15 AM

WippitGuud: HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.

So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?




Yes. I believe Yellowstone National Park has adopted this policy. Stopping a natural fire merely creates the environment for huge fire after a few years.

Or, mandate 200 yard fire breaks around every house and stop them from being built from wood.
 
2013-07-01 12:10:47 AM
Rest in peace, guys.
 
2013-07-01 12:10:51 AM
It's been a pretty mild rainy season here in Japan. The rain hasn't been too bad, the humidity is relatively low, and there's a nice breeze today.

Austria is in the 40s and 50s. Only America seems to be burning so badly.

I've heard about the weather control machine the US government is working on. What with the Snowden leaks and plummeting polls, it wouldn't surprise me if someone in the government is going to try to use these tragic deaths as a means to bring Americans together (it's one of the things we really do best) to distract them from all the other terrible news about the government.
 
2013-07-01 12:11:50 AM

LessO2: Go ahead Westboro, we dare you.


Their angle this time will probably be the SCOTUS overturning of DOMA/Prop 8.
 
2013-07-01 12:12:08 AM
 
2013-07-01 12:12:10 AM

HempHead: WippitGuud: HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.

So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?

Yes. I believe Yellowstone National Park has adopted this policy. Stopping a natural fire merely creates the environment for huge fire after a few years.

Or, mandate 200 yard fire breaks around every house and stop them from being built from wood.


OK.
What happens if the wildfire slams into Phoenix?
 
2013-07-01 12:12:32 AM
Now I feel bad for making a "they moved to the desert, they knew what they were getting into, I say let them burn" joke earlier, in response to the crazy heat wave in the southwest in general.

/I didn't know there was an actual fire raging out there
 
2013-07-01 12:13:01 AM
So. . . .

If this turns out to be started by someone, does he deserve better or worse treatment than the Boston Marathon bombers?

/just asking
//runs, ducks for cover
 
2013-07-01 12:13:02 AM

HeadLever: HempHead: 19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

No it is not and no one is saying that.




Why were they risking their lives to put out a fire if not to save houses? People were evacuated long ago.
 
2013-07-01 12:13:38 AM

HempHead: If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.


Adobe. Can you say a-doe-bay?

My grandparents built their house from adobe in the 30s here in AZ. It's still standing. Warm in winter, cool in summer. But that was before mass-manufactured stucco/styrofoam housing.
 
2013-07-01 12:14:23 AM

ArcadianRefugee: I drove through Arizona once. What the hell is there to burn?


Arizona has a good number of forests.  It is not all Phoenix.

www.uygardergi.com
 
2013-07-01 12:14:29 AM
Rattlesnake Fire in July 1953. They still do firefighter training in this brush filled ravine.

lh5.googleusercontent.com
 
2013-07-01 12:14:48 AM

HeadLever: ArcadianRefugee: I drove through Arizona once. What the hell is there to burn?

Arizona has a good number of forests.  It is not all Phoenix.

[www.uygardergi.com image 456x374]


I just see a bunch of trees.
 
2013-07-01 12:15:08 AM
That's hot.
 
2013-07-01 12:15:55 AM

thisdaydreamer: Elzar: That had to be about the worst article I have read lately - 18 firefighters dead, zero details or even mention of them past sentence one. Are these things now being crowdsourced to twitter for content creation?

Jesus Fuking Christ

Must have been a last-minute edit. I don't think there is much detail known yet but that was a pretty despicable way to handle it.


Exactly what did you want the reporters to do; sit on the story until something new was learned? We may not get deets on the deaths until morning.
 
2013-07-01 12:16:22 AM
doglover:

we are both liters? is is weird out here.
 
2013-07-01 12:16:58 AM
I just wish we hade more aerial assets for these types of fires. RIP
 
2013-07-01 12:17:03 AM

WippitGuud: HempHead: WippitGuud: HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.

So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?

Yes. I believe Yellowstone National Park has adopted this policy. Stopping a natural fire merely creates the environment for huge fire after a few years.

Or, mandate 200 yard fire breaks around every house and stop them from being built from wood.

OK.
What happens if the wildfire slams into Phoenix?


Cant happen. No forests in downtown Phoenix.

Fires happen in Phoenix every year believe it or not, and yet the city still stands.



By the 1940s, ecologists recognized that fire was a primary agent of change in many ecosystems, including the arid mountainous western United States. In the 1950s and 1960s, national parks and forests began to experiment with controlled burns, and by the 1970s Yellowstone and other parks had instituted a natural fire management plan to allow the process of lightning-caused fire to continue influencing wildland succession.

Many of Yellowstone's plant species are fire-adapted. Some (not all) of the lodgepole pines (Pinus contorta), which make up nearly 80% of the park's extensive forests, have cones that are serotinous sealed by resin until the intense heat of fire cracks the bonds and releases the seeds inside. Fires may stimulate regeneration of sagebrush, aspen, and willows, but the interactions between these plants and fire is complicated by other influences such as grazing levels and climate. Though above-ground parts of grasses and forbs are consumed by flames, the below-ground root systems typically remain unharmed, and for a few years after fire these plants commonly increase in productivity.
http://www.nps.gov/yell/naturescience/wildlandfire.htm
 
2013-07-01 12:17:35 AM

pissedoffmick: doglover:

we are both liters? is is weird out here.


I'm scared. Hold me.
 
2013-07-01 12:17:40 AM
I am looking at the photos and I know these places. I am praying that one of the houses that is burning in the photos is not my grandparent's house. It's going to be a rough couple of days. They are safe but the town may be gone. It is full of ranches and elderly people. This is going to devestate everyone there. I just can't type anymore right now because I am hurting so much inside. Fark away, I know this is Fark but... yeah...
 
2013-07-01 12:17:47 AM
Was out hiking near Truckee just before a storm. Headed back to the car early because of lightning. Sure, one or two strikes, meh, what are the odds? Five to ten in a few minutes, huh, maaaybeee it's better to be safe. Day-umm lightning strike less than a football field away with fire. Fortunately it was lightly raining. I still called it in and the forest guys came to check it out.
lh4.googleusercontent.com
 
2013-07-01 12:18:08 AM

HempHead: Why were they risking their lives to put out a fire if not to save houses?


The same reason they would be fighting the fire to save the forest.  Keep resource damage to a minimum.

Forest resouces < Human built resouces < Human lives
 
2013-07-01 12:20:20 AM

alienated: I just wish we hade more aerial assets for these types of fires. RIP


I just wish I was qualified to help. Fire is one of the things I'm good at.
 
2013-07-01 12:20:25 AM

firefly212: thelunatick: Elzar: That had to be about the worst article I have read lately - 18 firefighters dead, zero details or even mention of them past sentence one. Are these things now being crowdsourced to twitter for content creation?

Jesus Fuking Christ


In a wildfire details are always almost impossible.   They are unpredictable and highly dangerous.  It could have been something as simple as the wind shifting, or the heat causing a gust that drove the fire into their laps.  They can cover hundreds of feet in seconds.

Do wildland firefighters not carry emergency shelters there? I know the fires move fast and all, but I'd like to think that we're learning from previous disasters. =/
Did the shelters not work?

IIRC, the fire shelters got better after the Payson (sp) Arizona fire in 1990.

I wonder what happened, but either way I feel terrible for the families of all the dead.


They work...but there's a reason those kinds of fires are called "widowmakers." The shelters are small and fire resistant, but if you run out of oxygen, there's not going to be much a shelter can do for you.
 
2013-07-01 12:21:13 AM
This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?
 
2013-07-01 12:21:39 AM

kombi: Im going to assume it was like the incident in California. Mex

-i-can, whoa-whoa, ra-di-o station blocked there radios and they did not get the pullout order. Tried to get out and burned up in there truck. But again just assuming. something like that.


ftfy
 
2013-07-01 12:22:10 AM
Guys, I'm going to interrupt for a serious moment. For those who would like to help, please consider the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. They are sending a team out to assist in this grievous time, and they can use all the assistance they can get as they coordinate getting family members on planes, set up grief counseling, contribute toward funeral expenses, set up educational funds for the children, and so forth. At the very least, join the 52 Club.

I know you Farkers are awesome and generous in horrible times like this. Thank you.


//ex-hotshot
//my eyes have been teary all evening
 
2013-07-01 12:23:59 AM

ecmoRandomNumbers: HeadLever: ecmoRandomNumbers: At what point do you just say, "fark it. Just let it burn."

Typically, when it is dangerous to fight or when the resources are not important enough to just let burn. We had a monster 350,000 acre fire last year where I grew up and for many of the days, the firefighters turned into spectators.  However, when you have hundreds of homes threatened as in the case with this fire, agencies will probably tend to keep thier crews engaged longer than otherwise prudent.

Two years ago we had our half-million acre fire. We stayed until the mandatory evacuations. Fire got to within 2 miles of my house. The whole time, though, I thought, "Well, at least we're insured."

They're just things. You can't bring people back.


Nicely put.
 
2013-07-01 12:24:49 AM

WippitGuud: HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.

So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?


The implication was he'd prefer houses in fire-prone wilderness areas be designed to withstand wildfires, which is not as outlandish as you're characterizing it.

On the other hand, as senseless as these deaths seem, it's an anomaly; 21 firefighters died last year fighting fires in the entire country, which is around two deaths per 100,000 fire incidents. There are reasonable arguments to be made for letting more wildfires burn with less control, but our national policy shouldn't be shaped around a single unusual tragedy.
 
2013-07-01 12:25:17 AM
I just saw this.

19 people at once.  Jesus.
 
2013-07-01 12:25:31 AM
Very unfortunate.

Firefighters will always have my respect.

/because it takes balls of steel to be one
 
2013-07-01 12:25:47 AM
I am sorry.

My uncle used to be a head forester for a major forestry company and would spend days on site supervising forest fire fighting units. This was not an office job--the bosses are close enough to the fire that if it turns they may be surrounded. Three days with no sleep under hellish conditions is not a picnic, and the front line fighters have it worse.

My father was Fire Chief in the village because the company had the only truck equpped to pump water. Not much you can do when a tinder-dry woodframe house goes up in the middle of the night except hose down the ashes and the roofs of nearby houses, make sure it doesn't spread.

I can feel for the families and friends of men and women fighting fires, although even my family experience with fires is tame compared to what the front lines face in Arizona.

To start with, Arizona starts out hot enough to open jack pine seeds. Last year was the second most extreme year in the USA and the hottest.

So much for claims that global warming has stopped and that scientists are renouncing their belief in anthropogenic climate change. Don't you believe it. Naomi Oreske's meta-study which showed that 97% of papers support ACC has been followed up. She read about 700 papers--the new study read the conclusiions of about ten times that--it is still 97% agreement. The other 3% are dyed in the wool contrarians.

Death Valley is close to breaking or has broken a 100-year-old record of 130F. It's been over 120F in Phoenix and records are falling before July 4th.

Here's food for thought from a Fortune article announcing the deaths of these 19 peacetime heroes:

Not including the 19 deaths reported in Arizona, there have been 43 firefighter fatalities reported so far in 2013, according to the U.S. Fire Administration. A total of 83 firefighters died last year while on duty.

So we're ten deaths short of last year, a year from Hell. And that Arizona hot spot is sitting over the South West, while a cool spot squats over the Great Lakes, locking the jet stream and thus the weather patterns into place. This is a phenomenon that we will probably see more of in the future: hot and cold spots held in place for weeks or months by a traffic jam in the sky.

Arizona is no place to fight fires. Over 100F, there is no possible respite without artificial cooling or beds of ice for the firefighters to nap on. They are exposed to such tremendous heat for so long, I would not be surprised if it was the heat alone that was killing them.

Last year, according to the graphics which accompanied Obama's "environmental" speech, one third of Americans experienced 100F heat for ten or more days. TEN OR MORE DAYS IN A ROW.

Global warming is real, we are the only species that can do anything about it, and this is the Hell it brings, first as isolated events, then continuously.

Baby, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

You can't blame forestry policy or even stupid rich people moving into ex-urbs for all of the rising cost of climate and extreme events. Even when those are factored out, there is a very expensve remnant which can only be blamed on human activities besides forestry and tourism and building in  flood plans, sand dunes and fire-deprived forests.

We can all move to the front lines pretty damn fast if the wind shifts. Bless those who run to them rather than folding their hands together or sitting on them.
 
2013-07-01 12:27:31 AM
This isn't even remotely snarkable. It's just horrible.
 
2013-07-01 12:27:43 AM

Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?


They have them. We use them out here in CA by the ocean. The problem is you need not only big planes, but big runways, and also big lakes with enough room for the big planes to fly down and scoop up a hold full of water without losing enough airspeed to take off again. There's room over an ocean; often not much over a lake. Also, big planes use a lot of expensive fuel--is your county wealthy enough to afford it? L.A. County almost couldn't.
 
2013-07-01 12:27:49 AM

Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?


You could buy some 415 Superscoopers from Canada.

As long as there is a lake nearby, this thing takes in 1,620 gallon of water in literally 10 seconds.
 
2013-07-01 12:27:55 AM

T Baggins: WippitGuud: HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.

So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?

The implication was he'd prefer houses in fire-prone wilderness areas be designed to withstand wildfires, which is not as outlandish as you're characterizing it.

On the other hand, as senseless as these deaths seem, it's an anomaly; 21 firefighters died last year fighting fires in the entire country, which is around two deaths per 100,000 fire incidents. There are reasonable arguments to be made for letting more wildfires burn with less control, but our national policy shouldn't be shaped around a single unusual tragedy.


Does someone have some data or studies on costs of firefightng vs. just evacuating and paying to replace what's burned?
 
2013-07-01 12:28:15 AM

JesseL: There's almost zero doubt that this fire was started by lightning. I live in the area and we've had some huge thunderstorms in the last few days and tons of wildfires have been started all over the place by it.


Understood. I'm in SoCal. Most of ours are started by firebugs who come out whenever there's an alert out on the TV stations.

/will pass along info to friends for donations; this is all sorts of farked (and not in the good way!)
 
2013-07-01 12:30:24 AM

brantgoose: So much for claims that global warming has stopped


Drink!
 
2013-07-01 12:30:25 AM

BuckTurgidson: JesseL: WippitGuud: What is a "hotshot crew"

Firefighters trained to work in rough and remote areas.

... humping 100+ pounds of gear up and down the worst terrain in the nation in the hottest weather our continent offers in the middle of a wildfire with only their boots for escape for crap pay.

Navy SEALS of firefighting.


Well put, sir.
 
2013-07-01 12:31:10 AM
AZcentral.com live video just showed pic of the 19 firefighters in a group photo. I thought next of kin had to be notified beforehand, and 19 families couldnt have been contacted that quick.

PS: 108 degrees!
 
2013-07-01 12:31:41 AM
Honest question: why even fight wildfires? I mean, while they're in the wild. Obviously, I'm for preventing houses from burning, but couldn't they just hang out around the houses they thought were at risk and put the fire out only when it got too close? Forests are designed to burn periodically, so why even bother?
 
2013-07-01 12:32:05 AM
Fighting big wildfires is a war.
 
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