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(My Fox Phoenix)   18 Firefighters confirmed dead battling Arizona wildfire (article updated)   (myfoxphoenix.com) divider line 341
    More: News, Yarnell Hill, Tonto National Forest, Wildfires in Arizona  
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8453 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jun 2013 at 11:20 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-30 11:21:34 PM  
What the farking hell happened?
 
2013-06-30 11:22:40 PM  

thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?


I'm assuming the wildfire killed them
 
2013-06-30 11:22:43 PM  
heroesofchicago.com
 
2013-06-30 11:23:07 PM  
How the fark did that many people die? Jesus Christ.
 
2013-06-30 11:23:34 PM  
=(
 
2013-06-30 11:24:04 PM  
Go ahead Westboro, we dare you.
 
2013-06-30 11:24:05 PM  
Just saw that on the news. So sad. People like that are why there's a hero tag.

RIP
 
2013-06-30 11:25:14 PM  

Chinchillazilla: How the fark did that many people die? Jesus Christ.


From the news report I saw, they somehow got surrounded by the fire.
 
2013-06-30 11:25:45 PM  
That had to be about the worst article I have read lately - 18 firefighters dead, zero details or even mention of them past sentence one. Are these things now being crowdsourced to twitter for content creation?

Jesus Fuking Christ
 
2013-06-30 11:26:32 PM  

ThatDarkFellow: thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?

I'm assuming the wildfire killed them


Silly reiteration aside, I'm curious as to how they could have died, as well - the fire was moving at half a mile an hour, at least according to the article, so I'd kind of ruled out "being overtaken."
 
2013-06-30 11:27:09 PM  

Prometheus_Unbound: Chinchillazilla: How the fark did that many people die? Jesus Christ.

From the news report I saw, they somehow got surrounded by the fire.


Ah, that would explain it, sadly. Damn it.
 
2013-06-30 11:28:03 PM  

Elzar: That had to be about the worst article I have read lately - 18 firefighters dead, zero details or even mention of them past sentence one. Are these things now being crowdsourced to twitter for content creation?

Jesus Fuking Christ


Must have been a last-minute edit. I don't think there is much detail known yet but that was a pretty despicable way to handle it.
 
2013-06-30 11:28:07 PM  
100 degree temps and 20 mph winds.

this is one sad day.
 
2013-06-30 11:28:39 PM  

Elzar: That had to be about the worst article I have read lately - 18 firefighters dead, zero details or even mention of them past sentence one. Are these things now being crowdsourced to twitter for content creation?

Jesus Fuking Christ


None of the other articles I've read gave any more details than this one.
 
2013-06-30 11:29:19 PM  
Respect, and sadness.
 
2013-06-30 11:29:37 PM  

LessO2: Go ahead Westboro, we dare you.


Breaks out thepopcorn
 
2013-06-30 11:29:38 PM  

Elzar: That had to be about the worst article I have read lately - 18 firefighters dead, zero details or even mention of them past sentence one. Are these things now being crowdsourced to twitter for content creation?

Jesus Fuking Christ



In a wildfire details are always almost impossible.   They are unpredictable and highly dangerous.  It could have been something as simple as the wind shifting, or the heat causing a gust that drove the fire into their laps.  They can cover hundreds of feet in seconds.
 
2013-06-30 11:29:50 PM  
On and on and on about the granny and her four farking grandkids and their pets...and then, oh yeah, half the firefighters in Arizona died, too. What the fark?
 
2013-06-30 11:30:14 PM  
At what point do you just say, "fark it. Just let it burn."
 
2013-06-30 11:30:17 PM  
Someone is getting fired.
 
2013-06-30 11:31:31 PM  

LessO2: Go ahead Westboro, we dare you.


Pfft.  This wouldn't even make their top ten.
 
2013-06-30 11:31:35 PM  

Elzar: zero details


SOP in these circumstances until they get thier shiat in order.  You have 18 families that need to be told what happened correctly the first time.
 
2013-06-30 11:32:06 PM  

ThatDarkFellow: thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?

I'm assuming the wildfire killed them


lh5.googleusercontent.com
 
2013-06-30 11:32:24 PM  
AP just tweeted that nineteen firefighters died.
 
2013-06-30 11:32:32 PM  
Oh, that is bad. Bad, bad. =(


//also a smokey bear commercial is on WLS 890 AM right now =|
 
2013-06-30 11:32:40 PM  
I drove through Yarnell on Friday, just as the storm that sparked this fire was coming through. The last I had heard was that the fire was only up to 14 acres. I'm in complete shock that it got this bad this fast.
 
2013-06-30 11:33:00 PM  

LessO2: Go ahead Westboro, we dare you.


They will. Of course they will. They're sue-happy attention whores, after all.
 
2013-06-30 11:33:15 PM  
No joke, the next sound after the Smokey the Bear commercial was a news break about the deaths. WLS 890 AM is saying 19 dead. =(
 
2013-06-30 11:33:16 PM  
Goddammit.
 
2013-06-30 11:34:14 PM  
Correction, it seems the identity of the nineteenth victim is unknown and may not be a firefighter.
 
2013-06-30 11:34:32 PM  
Great song by Richard Shindell about firefighters surrounded by a blaze:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgQNeGPJdcQ
"Cry Cry Cry sings of the devastation of the Mann Gulch fire of 1949 through the point of view of Dodge, one of the remaining survivors. "
 
2013-06-30 11:35:10 PM  

thelunatick: Elzar: That had to be about the worst article I have read lately - 18 firefighters dead, zero details or even mention of them past sentence one. Are these things now being crowdsourced to twitter for content creation?

Jesus Fuking Christ


In a wildfire details are always almost impossible.   They are unpredictable and highly dangerous.  It could have been something as simple as the wind shifting, or the heat causing a gust that drove the fire into their laps.  They can cover hundreds of feet in seconds.


Do wildland firefighters not carry emergency shelters there? I know the fires move fast and all, but I'd like to think that we're learning from previous disasters. =/
Did the shelters not work?

IIRC, the fire shelters got better after the Payson (sp) Arizona fire in 1990.

I wonder what happened, but either way I feel terrible for the families of all the dead.
 
2013-06-30 11:35:22 PM  
CNN just breaking in and saying 19 firemen dead.

Damn.
 
2013-06-30 11:35:42 PM  
Good god that is horrible.
 
2013-06-30 11:35:56 PM  
Brought back memories of Storm King Mountain.  One of my son's high school friends is on firelines somewhere.  Know I'm going to be thinking of him all summer.  Gonna be a long fire season.
 
2013-06-30 11:36:09 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: At what point do you just say, "fark it. Just let it burn."


Typically, when it is dangerous to fight or when the resources are not important enough to just let burn. We had a monster 350,000 acre fire last year where I grew up and for many of the days, the firefighters turned into spectators.  However, when you have hundreds of homes threatened as in the case with this fire, agencies will probably tend to keep thier crews engaged longer than otherwise prudent.
 
2013-06-30 11:37:25 PM  
Ugh, I think it's time we have a real and serious discussion about allowing fires in this country.

/just a terrible thing, R.I.P.
 
2013-06-30 11:37:30 PM  

thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?


FIRE BAD
 
2013-06-30 11:37:45 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: At what point do you just say, "fark it. Just let it burn."


Probably decades ago. Those forests are supposed to burn periodically.
 
2013-06-30 11:37:49 PM  
Respect for everyone who is trained to run in when the rest of us would run out.
 
2013-06-30 11:38:49 PM  
Sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad, sad day.
 
2013-06-30 11:38:49 PM  
Awful
 
2013-06-30 11:39:50 PM  
fark...
 
2013-06-30 11:40:41 PM  
Somebody in the chain of command farked up bad.
 
2013-06-30 11:40:52 PM  

Somebody Else: Great song by Richard Shindell about firefighters surrounded by a blaze:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgQNeGPJdcQ
"Cry Cry Cry sings of the devastation of the Mann Gulch fire of 1949 through the point of view of Dodge, one of the remaining survivors. "


13 crosses high above, the cold Missouri waters

/not going to listen to that one tonight - much much to sad
 
2013-06-30 11:41:38 PM  
Damn, I live near Storm King Mountain in Colorado. Terrible news.
 
2013-06-30 11:42:05 PM  
farking awful.  Got home from having dinner at a friends house a bit ago (he is a firefighter)
 
2013-06-30 11:43:45 PM  
That is farking huge. That must have been an epic blaze or maybe something exploded. Anyone know if they are pros or volunteers? You never see that many die at once. Holy Fark.
 
2013-06-30 11:44:01 PM  

HeadLever: ecmoRandomNumbers: At what point do you just say, "fark it. Just let it burn."

Typically, when it is dangerous to fight or when the resources are not important enough to just let burn. We had a monster 350,000 acre fire last year where I grew up and for many of the days, the firefighters turned into spectators.  However, when you have hundreds of homes threatened as in the case with this fire, agencies will probably tend to keep thier crews engaged longer than otherwise prudent.


Two years ago we had our half-million acre fire. We stayed until the mandatory evacuations. Fire got to within 2 miles of my house. The whole time, though, I thought, "Well, at least we're insured."

They're just things. You can't bring people back.
 
2013-06-30 11:44:10 PM  

thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?


Wildfires aren't called "tamefires" for a reason.
 
2013-06-30 11:44:28 PM  
Wildfires are called that for a reason.  I was part of a controlled burn once, to help prevent wildfires like this from spreading, and to "restart" the prairie there.

The burn started out fine, but all it took was one gust of wind, and it blew our nice little fire into something terrifying.  This wasn't even dry conditions, and before I knew it our little party was surrounded by fire.  Fortunately for us, we had a pumper truck with us that had enough water in it for us to get out.  We only ended up burning a few acres of grasslands with that mishap.

I can't imagine what it is like fighting a real wildfire is like.  Losing these firefighters is terrible, and my heart goes out to their families.
 
2013-06-30 11:44:46 PM  

thisisyourbrainonFark: Damn, I live near Storm King Mountain in Colorado. Terrible news.


Have you hiked the memorial trail?  I've been thinking about a trip to Glenwood Springs just for that.
 
2013-06-30 11:46:12 PM  

ObnoxiousLonghorn: That is farking huge. That must have been an epic blaze or maybe something exploded. Anyone know if they are pros or volunteers? You never see that many die at once. Holy Fark.


At least one article I read said they were with the Prescott fire department.

Lightning is thought to be the cause of the fire. Add in high temperatures and wind and you've got a rapidly spreading fire.
 
2013-06-30 11:46:47 PM  

picturescrazy: ecmoRandomNumbers: At what point do you just say, "fark it. Just let it burn."

Probably decades ago. Those forests are supposed to burn periodically.


They do that with prescribed burns in certain areas.  The problem is that so may forest are ripe with fuels that have accumulated that this kind of fire is oftimes no longer healthy for the ecosystem. These kind of firest can burn so hot as to sterilize the ground.  It is never good practice to allow these types of fires if you can help it.
 
2013-06-30 11:46:50 PM  
firefly212:

Do wildland firefighters not carry emergency shelters there? I know the fires move fast and all, but I'd like to think that we're learning from previous disasters. =/
Did the shelters not work?

IIRC, the fire shelters got better after the Payson (sp) Arizona fire in 1990.

I wonder what happened, but either way I feel terrible for the families of all the dead.


I think sometimes the speed of the flames is simply too quick.
 
2013-06-30 11:47:10 PM  

doglover: thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?

Wildfires aren't called "tamefires" for a reason.


Nineteen lost at once is pretty farking extreme, even for a wildfire. The people in charge of those firefighters will have some very tough questions to answer.
 
2013-06-30 11:47:27 PM  

firefly212: thelunatick: Elzar: That had to be about the worst article I have read lately - 18 firefighters dead, zero details or even mention of them past sentence one. Are these things now being crowdsourced to twitter for content creation?

Jesus Fuking Christ


In a wildfire details are always almost impossible.   They are unpredictable and highly dangerous.  It could have been something as simple as the wind shifting, or the heat causing a gust that drove the fire into their laps.  They can cover hundreds of feet in seconds.

Do wildland firefighters not carry emergency shelters there? I know the fires move fast and all, but I'd like to think that we're learning from previous disasters. =/
Did the shelters not work?

IIRC, the fire shelters got better after the Payson (sp) Arizona fire in 1990.

I wonder what happened, but either way I feel terrible for the families of all the dead.


A firestorm is a thing of great power. Imagine a hurricane made of gasoline. Now light it on fire. Nothing a man can carry can really stop one.
 
2013-06-30 11:48:54 PM  

ramblinwreck: FireMEN.  I guess the fire took their gender from them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZAuqkqxk9A


I think three women died on Storm King Mountain fighting that fire.
 
2013-06-30 11:49:09 PM  
Someone made a mistake.

Someone made a BIG, goddamn mistake.

i1182.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-30 11:49:42 PM  

BiblioTech: thisisyourbrainonFark: Damn, I live near Storm King Mountain in Colorado. Terrible news.

Have you hiked the memorial trail?  I've been thinking about a trip to Glenwood Springs just for that.


I haven't. Hear that it's both strenuous and poignant.
 
2013-06-30 11:50:02 PM  

thisdaydreamer: doglover: thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?

Wildfires aren't called "tamefires" for a reason.

Nineteen lost at once is pretty farking extreme, even for a wildfire. The people in charge of those firefighters will have some very tough questions to answer.


Extreme?

Do you even Dresden?
 
2013-06-30 11:50:10 PM  
Well that was a fark up of epic proportions.  Whoever is incident commander of that better have a damned good excuse and lawyer.
 
2013-06-30 11:50:35 PM  
Clearly, these firemen needed more flamethrowers.

"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."

/marginally obscure
 
2013-06-30 11:50:39 PM  
looking at the area on Inciweb's map there are a LOT of natural chimenys to get caught in especially with the fire moving uphill.  The foil in those blankets start breaking down at about 500 degrees, and with 20' flames and 20 mph winds....damn... prayers for the families. A full hand crew, yeah someone is relieved of duty.
 
2013-06-30 11:50:44 PM  
We're up to 19 dead.

The entire Granite Ridge Hotshots team passed.

Live in downtown Phoenix..  we can see and smell the fire from here.
 
2013-06-30 11:51:20 PM  

doglover: firefly212: thelunatick: Elzar: That had to be about the worst article I have read lately - 18 firefighters dead, zero details or even mention of them past sentence one. Are these things now being crowdsourced to twitter for content creation?

Jesus Fuking Christ


In a wildfire details are always almost impossible.   They are unpredictable and highly dangerous.  It could have been something as simple as the wind shifting, or the heat causing a gust that drove the fire into their laps.  They can cover hundreds of feet in seconds.

Do wildland firefighters not carry emergency shelters there? I know the fires move fast and all, but I'd like to think that we're learning from previous disasters. =/
Did the shelters not work?

IIRC, the fire shelters got better after the Payson (sp) Arizona fire in 1990.

I wonder what happened, but either way I feel terrible for the families of all the dead.

A firestorm is a thing of great power. Imagine a hurricane made of gasoline. Now light it on fire. Nothing a man can carry can really stop one.


The shelters did save lives in the Storm King fire, IIRC.
 
2013-06-30 11:51:31 PM  
All the fire departments in the area (and many from out of state even) have been working nonstop since June 18 dealing with wildfires. I have no idea if fatigue might have played a role in this tragedy, but it wouldn't surprise me.

The Doce fire started on the 18th and grew to something like 7000 acres and took the better part of a week and a half to get contained. As soon as that was done we had dozens of lightning sparked fires sprout up all over the county, of which was this one.
 
2013-06-30 11:51:51 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: They're just things. You can't bring people back.


Very true and you can bet that every FMO repeats that every 20 seconds in thier mind.  Unfortunately, shiat happens sometimes.  For ths sake of all, I hope this was just an unfortuate circumstance that could not be forseen.
 
2013-06-30 11:52:24 PM  

MorrisBird: Respect, and sadness.


Yes
 
2013-06-30 11:52:44 PM  

darcsun: We're up to 19 dead.

The entire Granite Ridge Hotshots team passed.

Live in downtown Phoenix..  we can see and smell the fire from here.


Raise a glass. Damn.
 
2013-06-30 11:53:33 PM  
Wow, what miserable news to end the weekend with.

RIP, thanks & respect for running in when logic says to run out
 
2013-06-30 11:53:41 PM  
Christ, this says the Prescott Fire Department lost nearly its entire crew.

http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleI D= 120733&TM=85903.19
 
2013-06-30 11:53:53 PM  
Colorado's on fire and now Arizona? Damn
 
2013-06-30 11:54:19 PM  
Not that it brings back the dead parents/siblings/kids but I hope the families get insanely large insurance payouts and MORE. Likely a lawsuit(s) will come out of this, though I don't know what legal stipulations are on that sorta thing being that they "signed up for it."

/I has the sads
 
2013-06-30 11:56:09 PM  
This is just awful. I picked a bad night to have trouble sleeping.
 
2013-06-30 11:56:36 PM  
Sad. :(
 
2013-06-30 11:57:04 PM  
Relevant

Link
 
2013-06-30 11:57:45 PM  

thisisyourbrainonFark: doglover: firefly212: thelunatick: Elzar: That had to be about the worst article I have read lately - 18 firefighters dead, zero details or even mention of them past sentence one. Are these things now being crowdsourced to twitter for content creation?

Jesus Fuking Christ


In a wildfire details are always almost impossible.   They are unpredictable and highly dangerous.  It could have been something as simple as the wind shifting, or the heat causing a gust that drove the fire into their laps.  They can cover hundreds of feet in seconds.

Do wildland firefighters not carry emergency shelters there? I know the fires move fast and all, but I'd like to think that we're learning from previous disasters. =/
Did the shelters not work?

IIRC, the fire shelters got better after the Payson (sp) Arizona fire in 1990.

I wonder what happened, but either way I feel terrible for the families of all the dead.

A firestorm is a thing of great power. Imagine a hurricane made of gasoline. Now light it on fire. Nothing a man can carry can really stop one.

The shelters did save lives in the Storm King fire, IIRC.


To survive a firestorm, you'd need to be in an underground bunker with its own self contained oxygen supply and no ventilation.

If the heat, which can melt rock, doesn't get ya the lack of oxygen will. A foil shelter can only do so much.
 
2013-06-30 11:59:17 PM  
api.ning.com
 
2013-06-30 11:59:56 PM  
What is a "hotshot crew"
 
2013-07-01 12:00:18 AM  
Didn't read through the latest posts, but a buddy of mine is on the Yarnell fire.  Says a thundercell came through at the end of the day. The outflow caused a blow up.  There were 8 tankers and 3 Aircranes launched to help. Couldn't get there in time I guess.
 
2013-07-01 12:00:58 AM  

HeadLever: ecmoRandomNumbers: At what point do you just say, "fark it. Just let it burn."

Typically, when it is dangerous to fight or when the resources are not important enough to just let burn. We had a monster 350,000 acre fire last year where I grew up and for many of the days, the firefighters turned into spectators.  However, when you have hundreds of homes threatened as in the case with this fire, agencies will probably tend to keep thier crews engaged longer than otherwise prudent.




19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.
 
2013-07-01 12:01:03 AM  
Jeesus. That's terrible. Thanks guys for your tremendous efforts. :'(.
 
2013-07-01 12:02:03 AM  

WippitGuud: What is a "hotshot crew"

i2.listal.com
 
2013-07-01 12:02:24 AM  

cboppert: Jeesus. That's terrible. Thanks guys for your tremendous efforts. :'(.


Well I can't speak for all of Fark, but you're welcome
 
2013-07-01 12:02:32 AM  

WippitGuud: What is a "hotshot crew"


A clever team name for firefighters who deal with fires, which are hot, playing on the word "hotshot" which denotes a brave or daring person.
 
2013-07-01 12:02:42 AM  

doglover: thisdaydreamer: doglover: thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?

Wildfires aren't called "tamefires" for a reason.

Nineteen lost at once is pretty farking extreme, even for a wildfire. The people in charge of those firefighters will have some very tough questions to answer.

Extreme?

Do you even Dresden?


www.live4ever.uk.com
 
2013-07-01 12:02:43 AM  
HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.


So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?
 
2013-07-01 12:02:47 AM  
My grandparents live in one of the home evacuated in Peeple's Valley, AZ. They live there and are about five miles from Yarnell. I know the people there. I am seriously devestated and concerned right now. My grandmother is 78 and my grandfather is 80. She hasn't been doing too hot and now their home is in danger of being destroyed. They designed and built it themselves. They are safe in Prescott but I am still extremely concerned. I was wondering why they didn't call me back today after I left them a message. shiat. shiat. shiat.
 
2013-07-01 12:02:58 AM  

WippitGuud: What is a "hotshot crew"


Firefighters trained to work in rough and remote areas.
 
2013-07-01 12:03:07 AM  
Holy crap. This is horrible.
 
2013-07-01 12:03:39 AM  
Condolences to the families and friends of the firefighters.  :(

Much respect for the people who do this for a living.
 
2013-07-01 12:03:47 AM  

firepilot: Didn't read through the latest posts, but a buddy of mine is on the Yarnell fire.  Says a thundercell came through at the end of the day. The outflow caused a blow up.  There were 8 tankers and 3 Aircranes launched to help. Couldn't get there in time I guess.


Ye gods.
 
2013-07-01 12:03:55 AM  

WippitGuud: What is a "hotshot crew"


Firefighters specially trained in wildfire suppression. Crews generally average 20 firefighters.
 
2013-07-01 12:04:06 AM  

basemetal: [api.ning.com image 512x373]


Tribute.  I salute them too.
 
2013-07-01 12:05:22 AM  
media.oregonlive.com
Hotshot Memorial
 
2013-07-01 12:05:38 AM  
i3.ytimg.com

there wouldn't BE people dying in fires if you people would not go where the FIRE IS!
 
2013-07-01 12:06:05 AM  
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5186394.pdf 

doglover: thisisyourbrainonFark: doglover: firefly212: thelunatick: Elzar: That had to be about the worst article I have read lately - 18 firefighters dead, zero details or even mention of them past sentence one. Are these things now being crowdsourced to twitter for content creation?

Jesus Fuking Christ


In a wildfire details are always almost impossible.   They are unpredictable and highly dangerous.  It could have been something as simple as the wind shifting, or the heat causing a gust that drove the fire into their laps.  They can cover hundreds of feet in seconds.

Do wildland firefighters not carry emergency shelters there? I know the fires move fast and all, but I'd like to think that we're learning from previous disasters. =/
Did the shelters not work?

IIRC, the fire shelters got better after the Payson (sp) Arizona fire in 1990.

I wonder what happened, but either way I feel terrible for the families of all the dead.

A firestorm is a thing of great power. Imagine a hurricane made of gasoline. Now light it on fire. Nothing a man can carry can really stop one.

The shelters did save lives in the Storm King fire, IIRC.

To survive a firestorm, you'd need to be in an underground bunker with its own self contained oxygen supply and no ventilation.

If the heat, which can melt rock, doesn't get ya the lack of oxygen will. A foil shelter can only do so much.


I hear you. Couldn't find much on how they were used in Storm King except this:

"The remaining 35 firefighters survived by escaping out the east drainage or seeking a safety zone and deploying their fire shelters."

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5186394.pdf
 
2013-07-01 12:06:11 AM  

WippitGuud: What is a "hotshot crew"


Think the Special Ops teams of wildland fire fighters.
 
2013-07-01 12:06:46 AM  
This gives me nightmares since my boyfriend is about to head to fire school.
 
2013-07-01 12:07:06 AM  
Damn...

Half flags all over the place.
 
2013-07-01 12:07:30 AM  

HempHead: 19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.


No it is not and no one is saying that.
 
2013-07-01 12:07:54 AM  
f*ck
 
2013-07-01 12:08:00 AM  
I drove through Arizona once. What the hell is there to burn?

/i i am truley sorry for their lots
 
2013-07-01 12:09:00 AM  

JesseL: WippitGuud: What is a "hotshot crew"

Firefighters trained to work in rough and remote areas.


... humping 100+ pounds of gear up and down the worst terrain in the nation in the hottest weather our continent offers in the middle of a wildfire with only their boots for escape for crap pay.

Navy SEALS of firefighting.
 
2013-07-01 12:09:01 AM  
Did one summer as Forest Service volunteer crew. My hat's off.
 
2013-07-01 12:09:11 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: I drove through Arizona once. What the hell is there to burn?

/i i am truley sorry for their lots


Has it been like 125 degrees in Arizona?
I'm pretty sure atmosphere burns at that temp.
 
2013-07-01 12:10:04 AM  

doglover:

Wildfires aren't called "tamefires" for a reason.

Famous Thamas: Wildfires are called that for a reason.



The stupid, it burns...wildfires are not called that because of their behavior but because of their location. They happen IN THE WILD. Believe it or not the word didn't originate with forest fires but had to do with the propagation of skin conditions by plants such as poison ivy. The rash burned and one got it while out in nature hence "wild fire"; it didn't take on its common meaning today until centuries later.
 
2013-07-01 12:10:15 AM  

WippitGuud: HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.

So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?




Yes. I believe Yellowstone National Park has adopted this policy. Stopping a natural fire merely creates the environment for huge fire after a few years.

Or, mandate 200 yard fire breaks around every house and stop them from being built from wood.
 
2013-07-01 12:10:47 AM  
Rest in peace, guys.
 
2013-07-01 12:10:51 AM  
It's been a pretty mild rainy season here in Japan. The rain hasn't been too bad, the humidity is relatively low, and there's a nice breeze today.

Austria is in the 40s and 50s. Only America seems to be burning so badly.

I've heard about the weather control machine the US government is working on. What with the Snowden leaks and plummeting polls, it wouldn't surprise me if someone in the government is going to try to use these tragic deaths as a means to bring Americans together (it's one of the things we really do best) to distract them from all the other terrible news about the government.
 
2013-07-01 12:11:50 AM  

LessO2: Go ahead Westboro, we dare you.


Their angle this time will probably be the SCOTUS overturning of DOMA/Prop 8.
 
2013-07-01 12:12:08 AM  
 
2013-07-01 12:12:10 AM  

HempHead: WippitGuud: HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.

So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?

Yes. I believe Yellowstone National Park has adopted this policy. Stopping a natural fire merely creates the environment for huge fire after a few years.

Or, mandate 200 yard fire breaks around every house and stop them from being built from wood.


OK.
What happens if the wildfire slams into Phoenix?
 
2013-07-01 12:12:32 AM  
Now I feel bad for making a "they moved to the desert, they knew what they were getting into, I say let them burn" joke earlier, in response to the crazy heat wave in the southwest in general.

/I didn't know there was an actual fire raging out there
 
2013-07-01 12:13:01 AM  
So. . . .

If this turns out to be started by someone, does he deserve better or worse treatment than the Boston Marathon bombers?

/just asking
//runs, ducks for cover
 
2013-07-01 12:13:02 AM  

HeadLever: HempHead: 19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

No it is not and no one is saying that.




Why were they risking their lives to put out a fire if not to save houses? People were evacuated long ago.
 
2013-07-01 12:13:38 AM  

HempHead: If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.


Adobe. Can you say a-doe-bay?

My grandparents built their house from adobe in the 30s here in AZ. It's still standing. Warm in winter, cool in summer. But that was before mass-manufactured stucco/styrofoam housing.
 
2013-07-01 12:14:23 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: I drove through Arizona once. What the hell is there to burn?


Arizona has a good number of forests.  It is not all Phoenix.

www.uygardergi.com
 
2013-07-01 12:14:29 AM  
Rattlesnake Fire in July 1953. They still do firefighter training in this brush filled ravine.

lh5.googleusercontent.com
 
2013-07-01 12:14:48 AM  

HeadLever: ArcadianRefugee: I drove through Arizona once. What the hell is there to burn?

Arizona has a good number of forests.  It is not all Phoenix.

[www.uygardergi.com image 456x374]


I just see a bunch of trees.
 
2013-07-01 12:15:08 AM  
That's hot.
 
2013-07-01 12:15:55 AM  

thisdaydreamer: Elzar: That had to be about the worst article I have read lately - 18 firefighters dead, zero details or even mention of them past sentence one. Are these things now being crowdsourced to twitter for content creation?

Jesus Fuking Christ

Must have been a last-minute edit. I don't think there is much detail known yet but that was a pretty despicable way to handle it.


Exactly what did you want the reporters to do; sit on the story until something new was learned? We may not get deets on the deaths until morning.
 
2013-07-01 12:16:22 AM  
doglover:

we are both liters? is is weird out here.
 
2013-07-01 12:16:58 AM  
I just wish we hade more aerial assets for these types of fires. RIP
 
2013-07-01 12:17:03 AM  

WippitGuud: HempHead: WippitGuud: HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.

So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?

Yes. I believe Yellowstone National Park has adopted this policy. Stopping a natural fire merely creates the environment for huge fire after a few years.

Or, mandate 200 yard fire breaks around every house and stop them from being built from wood.

OK.
What happens if the wildfire slams into Phoenix?


Cant happen. No forests in downtown Phoenix.

Fires happen in Phoenix every year believe it or not, and yet the city still stands.



By the 1940s, ecologists recognized that fire was a primary agent of change in many ecosystems, including the arid mountainous western United States. In the 1950s and 1960s, national parks and forests began to experiment with controlled burns, and by the 1970s Yellowstone and other parks had instituted a natural fire management plan to allow the process of lightning-caused fire to continue influencing wildland succession.

Many of Yellowstone's plant species are fire-adapted. Some (not all) of the lodgepole pines (Pinus contorta), which make up nearly 80% of the park's extensive forests, have cones that are serotinous sealed by resin until the intense heat of fire cracks the bonds and releases the seeds inside. Fires may stimulate regeneration of sagebrush, aspen, and willows, but the interactions between these plants and fire is complicated by other influences such as grazing levels and climate. Though above-ground parts of grasses and forbs are consumed by flames, the below-ground root systems typically remain unharmed, and for a few years after fire these plants commonly increase in productivity.
http://www.nps.gov/yell/naturescience/wildlandfire.htm
 
2013-07-01 12:17:35 AM  

pissedoffmick: doglover:

we are both liters? is is weird out here.


I'm scared. Hold me.
 
2013-07-01 12:17:40 AM  
I am looking at the photos and I know these places. I am praying that one of the houses that is burning in the photos is not my grandparent's house. It's going to be a rough couple of days. They are safe but the town may be gone. It is full of ranches and elderly people. This is going to devestate everyone there. I just can't type anymore right now because I am hurting so much inside. Fark away, I know this is Fark but... yeah...
 
2013-07-01 12:17:47 AM  
Was out hiking near Truckee just before a storm. Headed back to the car early because of lightning. Sure, one or two strikes, meh, what are the odds? Five to ten in a few minutes, huh, maaaybeee it's better to be safe. Day-umm lightning strike less than a football field away with fire. Fortunately it was lightly raining. I still called it in and the forest guys came to check it out.
lh4.googleusercontent.com
 
2013-07-01 12:18:08 AM  

HempHead: Why were they risking their lives to put out a fire if not to save houses?


The same reason they would be fighting the fire to save the forest.  Keep resource damage to a minimum.

Forest resouces < Human built resouces < Human lives
 
2013-07-01 12:20:20 AM  

alienated: I just wish we hade more aerial assets for these types of fires. RIP


I just wish I was qualified to help. Fire is one of the things I'm good at.
 
2013-07-01 12:20:25 AM  

firefly212: thelunatick: Elzar: That had to be about the worst article I have read lately - 18 firefighters dead, zero details or even mention of them past sentence one. Are these things now being crowdsourced to twitter for content creation?

Jesus Fuking Christ


In a wildfire details are always almost impossible.   They are unpredictable and highly dangerous.  It could have been something as simple as the wind shifting, or the heat causing a gust that drove the fire into their laps.  They can cover hundreds of feet in seconds.

Do wildland firefighters not carry emergency shelters there? I know the fires move fast and all, but I'd like to think that we're learning from previous disasters. =/
Did the shelters not work?

IIRC, the fire shelters got better after the Payson (sp) Arizona fire in 1990.

I wonder what happened, but either way I feel terrible for the families of all the dead.


They work...but there's a reason those kinds of fires are called "widowmakers." The shelters are small and fire resistant, but if you run out of oxygen, there's not going to be much a shelter can do for you.
 
2013-07-01 12:21:13 AM  
This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?
 
2013-07-01 12:21:39 AM  

kombi: Im going to assume it was like the incident in California. Mex

-i-can, whoa-whoa, ra-di-o station blocked there radios and they did not get the pullout order. Tried to get out and burned up in there truck. But again just assuming. something like that.


ftfy
 
2013-07-01 12:22:10 AM  
Guys, I'm going to interrupt for a serious moment. For those who would like to help, please consider the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. They are sending a team out to assist in this grievous time, and they can use all the assistance they can get as they coordinate getting family members on planes, set up grief counseling, contribute toward funeral expenses, set up educational funds for the children, and so forth. At the very least, join the 52 Club.

I know you Farkers are awesome and generous in horrible times like this. Thank you.


//ex-hotshot
//my eyes have been teary all evening
 
2013-07-01 12:23:59 AM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: HeadLever: ecmoRandomNumbers: At what point do you just say, "fark it. Just let it burn."

Typically, when it is dangerous to fight or when the resources are not important enough to just let burn. We had a monster 350,000 acre fire last year where I grew up and for many of the days, the firefighters turned into spectators.  However, when you have hundreds of homes threatened as in the case with this fire, agencies will probably tend to keep thier crews engaged longer than otherwise prudent.

Two years ago we had our half-million acre fire. We stayed until the mandatory evacuations. Fire got to within 2 miles of my house. The whole time, though, I thought, "Well, at least we're insured."

They're just things. You can't bring people back.


Nicely put.
 
2013-07-01 12:24:49 AM  

WippitGuud: HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.

So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?


The implication was he'd prefer houses in fire-prone wilderness areas be designed to withstand wildfires, which is not as outlandish as you're characterizing it.

On the other hand, as senseless as these deaths seem, it's an anomaly; 21 firefighters died last year fighting fires in the entire country, which is around two deaths per 100,000 fire incidents. There are reasonable arguments to be made for letting more wildfires burn with less control, but our national policy shouldn't be shaped around a single unusual tragedy.
 
2013-07-01 12:25:17 AM  
I just saw this.

19 people at once.  Jesus.
 
2013-07-01 12:25:31 AM  
Very unfortunate.

Firefighters will always have my respect.

/because it takes balls of steel to be one
 
2013-07-01 12:25:47 AM  
I am sorry.

My uncle used to be a head forester for a major forestry company and would spend days on site supervising forest fire fighting units. This was not an office job--the bosses are close enough to the fire that if it turns they may be surrounded. Three days with no sleep under hellish conditions is not a picnic, and the front line fighters have it worse.

My father was Fire Chief in the village because the company had the only truck equpped to pump water. Not much you can do when a tinder-dry woodframe house goes up in the middle of the night except hose down the ashes and the roofs of nearby houses, make sure it doesn't spread.

I can feel for the families and friends of men and women fighting fires, although even my family experience with fires is tame compared to what the front lines face in Arizona.

To start with, Arizona starts out hot enough to open jack pine seeds. Last year was the second most extreme year in the USA and the hottest.

So much for claims that global warming has stopped and that scientists are renouncing their belief in anthropogenic climate change. Don't you believe it. Naomi Oreske's meta-study which showed that 97% of papers support ACC has been followed up. She read about 700 papers--the new study read the conclusiions of about ten times that--it is still 97% agreement. The other 3% are dyed in the wool contrarians.

Death Valley is close to breaking or has broken a 100-year-old record of 130F. It's been over 120F in Phoenix and records are falling before July 4th.

Here's food for thought from a Fortune article announcing the deaths of these 19 peacetime heroes:

Not including the 19 deaths reported in Arizona, there have been 43 firefighter fatalities reported so far in 2013, according to the U.S. Fire Administration. A total of 83 firefighters died last year while on duty.

So we're ten deaths short of last year, a year from Hell. And that Arizona hot spot is sitting over the South West, while a cool spot squats over the Great Lakes, locking the jet stream and thus the weather patterns into place. This is a phenomenon that we will probably see more of in the future: hot and cold spots held in place for weeks or months by a traffic jam in the sky.

Arizona is no place to fight fires. Over 100F, there is no possible respite without artificial cooling or beds of ice for the firefighters to nap on. They are exposed to such tremendous heat for so long, I would not be surprised if it was the heat alone that was killing them.

Last year, according to the graphics which accompanied Obama's "environmental" speech, one third of Americans experienced 100F heat for ten or more days. TEN OR MORE DAYS IN A ROW.

Global warming is real, we are the only species that can do anything about it, and this is the Hell it brings, first as isolated events, then continuously.

Baby, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

You can't blame forestry policy or even stupid rich people moving into ex-urbs for all of the rising cost of climate and extreme events. Even when those are factored out, there is a very expensve remnant which can only be blamed on human activities besides forestry and tourism and building in  flood plans, sand dunes and fire-deprived forests.

We can all move to the front lines pretty damn fast if the wind shifts. Bless those who run to them rather than folding their hands together or sitting on them.
 
2013-07-01 12:27:31 AM  
This isn't even remotely snarkable. It's just horrible.
 
2013-07-01 12:27:43 AM  

Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?


They have them. We use them out here in CA by the ocean. The problem is you need not only big planes, but big runways, and also big lakes with enough room for the big planes to fly down and scoop up a hold full of water without losing enough airspeed to take off again. There's room over an ocean; often not much over a lake. Also, big planes use a lot of expensive fuel--is your county wealthy enough to afford it? L.A. County almost couldn't.
 
2013-07-01 12:27:49 AM  

Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?


You could buy some 415 Superscoopers from Canada.

As long as there is a lake nearby, this thing takes in 1,620 gallon of water in literally 10 seconds.
 
2013-07-01 12:27:55 AM  

T Baggins: WippitGuud: HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.

So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?

The implication was he'd prefer houses in fire-prone wilderness areas be designed to withstand wildfires, which is not as outlandish as you're characterizing it.

On the other hand, as senseless as these deaths seem, it's an anomaly; 21 firefighters died last year fighting fires in the entire country, which is around two deaths per 100,000 fire incidents. There are reasonable arguments to be made for letting more wildfires burn with less control, but our national policy shouldn't be shaped around a single unusual tragedy.


Does someone have some data or studies on costs of firefightng vs. just evacuating and paying to replace what's burned?
 
2013-07-01 12:28:15 AM  

JesseL: There's almost zero doubt that this fire was started by lightning. I live in the area and we've had some huge thunderstorms in the last few days and tons of wildfires have been started all over the place by it.


Understood. I'm in SoCal. Most of ours are started by firebugs who come out whenever there's an alert out on the TV stations.

/will pass along info to friends for donations; this is all sorts of farked (and not in the good way!)
 
2013-07-01 12:30:24 AM  

brantgoose: So much for claims that global warming has stopped


Drink!
 
2013-07-01 12:30:25 AM  

BuckTurgidson: JesseL: WippitGuud: What is a "hotshot crew"

Firefighters trained to work in rough and remote areas.

... humping 100+ pounds of gear up and down the worst terrain in the nation in the hottest weather our continent offers in the middle of a wildfire with only their boots for escape for crap pay.

Navy SEALS of firefighting.


Well put, sir.
 
2013-07-01 12:31:10 AM  
AZcentral.com live video just showed pic of the 19 firefighters in a group photo. I thought next of kin had to be notified beforehand, and 19 families couldnt have been contacted that quick.

PS: 108 degrees!
 
2013-07-01 12:31:41 AM  
Honest question: why even fight wildfires? I mean, while they're in the wild. Obviously, I'm for preventing houses from burning, but couldn't they just hang out around the houses they thought were at risk and put the fire out only when it got too close? Forests are designed to burn periodically, so why even bother?
 
2013-07-01 12:32:05 AM  
Fighting big wildfires is a war.
 
2013-07-01 12:32:07 AM  

thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?


The Monsoon is beginning in a hellish-hot airmass.  Any convection (storms) that develop over the higher terrain will create awfully strong and localized outflows.  And little rain.  A very sad confluence of events.  jeez.
 
2013-07-01 12:32:11 AM  
fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net
 
2013-07-01 12:33:03 AM  

brantgoose: one third of Americans experienced 100F heat for ten or more days. TEN OR MORE DAYS IN A ROW.

Global warming is real


Summer is hot. Time to panic.
 
2013-07-01 12:33:22 AM  
Holy f•ck.

"Reichling said the 19 firefighters were found in an area that also had 19 fire shelters deployed. Some of those found were inside a shelter, which is typically used as a last resort to withstand the fire as it blows over. Some of the crew members were found outside the shelters.

Officials said 18 of the deceased were members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots team. It's unknown what fire crew the 19th firefighter was a member of. The firefighters are part of a team that is typically sent in first to help cut off the fire, Reichling said."


www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130630crews- fighting-small-fires-around-Arizona.html

That's a bad scene.

Firefighters. They went in when everyone else evacuated.
 
2013-07-01 12:33:44 AM  

T Baggins: WippitGuud: HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.

So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?

The implication was he'd prefer houses in fire-prone wilderness areas be designed to withstand wildfires, which is not as outlandish as you're characterizing it.


I'm not trying to be outlandish. Even if the construction is fire-proof, they would just be burnt-out shells.
And you get the same arguement in tornado areas, hurricane areas, flood-prone areas... so like most of the country.
 
2013-07-01 12:34:37 AM  

HempHead: HeadLever: HempHead: 19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

No it is not and no one is saying that.

Why were they risking their lives to put out a fire if not to save houses? People were evacuated long ago.

 When big fires get going, they generate their own winds, blasting embers and sparks miles from the actual fire. The more fuel you give it, the bigger it gets, the faster the winds, and so on. Should it get from a relatively rural area into a more heavily-populated one, the fire will go absolutely nuts.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_Firestorm_of_1991

Once a firestorm really gets going in a heavily-populated area, you get things like Chicago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

Little towns nearby were wiped off the map.

Also, keep in mind that after these huge fires, bodies are found in house remains. There are always confused people, kids, old or very ill people who, for whatever reason, don't get out.
 
2013-07-01 12:34:48 AM  

Chinchillazilla: Honest question: why even fight wildfires? I mean, while they're in the wild. Obviously, I'm for preventing houses from burning, but couldn't they just hang out around the houses they thought were at risk and put the fire out only when it got too close? Forests are designed to burn periodically, so why even bother?


That's pretty much what they do. They focus on containing the fire with a priority on threatened structures.
 
2013-07-01 12:35:18 AM  

JesseL: [fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net image 350x263]


Thanks, guys. Rest well.
 
2013-07-01 12:35:41 AM  

Chinchillazilla: Honest question: why even fight wildfires? I mean, while they're in the wild. Obviously, I'm for preventing houses from burning, but couldn't they just hang out around the houses they thought were at risk and put the fire out only when it got too close? Forests are designed to burn periodically, so why even bother?


If you go to google maps and look up Yarnell, Google has put a dotted line around where the fire is, compared to where the town is.

I don't think the town is there anymore.
 
2013-07-01 12:35:55 AM  
It's 19 now - the entire team is confirmed dead.


Oh, and fark you channel 12 news who decided to make an hour long show out of a breaking story with no details.  We've now had a demonstration of a fire shelter. And alame Q&A session with a senator about whether sequestration has anything to do with this.
 
2013-07-01 12:37:57 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?

They have them. We use them out here in CA by the ocean. The problem is you need not only big planes, but big runways, and also big lakes with enough room for the big planes to fly down and scoop up a hold full of water without losing enough airspeed to take off again. There's room over an ocean; often not much over a lake. Also, big planes use a lot of expensive fuel--is your county wealthy enough to afford it? L.A. County almost couldn't.


True. But, there is also at least one converted dc-10. Sky harbor , i am pretty sure, can handle that size of aircraft. As far as cost goes, I think we spent more leasing the damn super scoopers than buying one outright. The problem is- people have short attention spans, and time comes for a bill to buy the proper equipment- everyone all of a sudden forgets what happened just a few months ago, so it goes nowhere / gets voted down.
Humans are stupid.
 
2013-07-01 12:38:54 AM  
Very sad indeed.
 
2013-07-01 12:39:13 AM  

Chinchillazilla: Honest question: why even fight wildfires? I mean, while they're in the wild. Obviously, I'm for preventing houses from burning, but couldn't they just hang out around the houses they thought were at risk and put the fire out only when it got too close? Forests are designed to burn periodically, so why even bother?


see my response @ 2013-06-30 11:46:47 PM . One of many reasons.
 
2013-07-01 12:39:17 AM  

HeadLever: ArcadianRefugee: I drove through Arizona once. What the hell is there to burn?

Arizona has a good number of forests.  It is not all Phoenix.

[www.uygardergi.com image 456x374]


OK, I'll give you that possibility; they don't have too many roads through that kind of stuff that I went through.

What I did see? Dust devil, cactus, dust, dust, dust, sand, dust, dust, dust, sand, cactus, dust devil, another car...
 
2013-07-01 12:42:05 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: brantgoose: one third of Americans experienced 100F heat for ten or more days. TEN OR MORE DAYS IN A ROW.

Global warming is real

Summer is hot. Time to panic.


So's your wife?
 
2013-07-01 12:42:33 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: HeadLever: ArcadianRefugee: I drove through Arizona once. What the hell is there to burn?

Arizona has a good number of forests.  It is not all Phoenix.

[www.uygardergi.com image 456x374]

OK, I'll give you that possibility; they don't have too many roads through that kind of stuff that I went through.

What I did see? Dust devil, cactus, dust, dust, dust, sand, dust, dust, dust, sand, cactus, dust devil, another car...


Possibility? It's the reality. Learned to ski in Arizona.
 
2013-07-01 12:42:47 AM  
The men that fight those wildfires are among the best specimens humanity has to offer, both in strength of body and mind.
It's very sad to see them suffer such casualties.
RIP.
 
2013-07-01 12:42:54 AM  

alienated: Gyrfalcon: Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?

They have them. We use them out here in CA by the ocean. The problem is you need not only big planes, but big runways, and also big lakes with enough room for the big planes to fly down and scoop up a hold full of water without losing enough airspeed to take off again. There's room over an ocean; often not much over a lake. Also, big planes use a lot of expensive fuel--is your county wealthy enough to afford it? L.A. County almost couldn't.

True. But, there is also at least one converted dc-10. Sky harbor , i am pretty sure, can handle that size of aircraft. As far as cost goes, I think we spent more leasing the damn super scoopers than buying one outright. The problem is- people have short attention spans, and time comes for a bill to buy the proper equipment- everyone all of a sudden forgets what happened just a few months ago, so it goes nowhere / gets voted down.
Humans are stupid.


You need more than a big runway, you need the infrastructure to load the suppressant onto the aircraft. California has bases at a lot of airports (most for smaller aircraft than the DC-10) with that infrastructure already in place. I'm not sure about Arizona.
 
2013-07-01 12:43:27 AM  

WippitGuud: You could buy some 415 Superscoopers from Canada.

As long as there is a lake nearby, this thing takes in 1,620 gallon of water in literally 10 seconds.


Or one of these, which holds 7200 gallons:
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-01 12:43:33 AM  

doglover: JesseL: [fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net image 350x263]

Thanks, guys. Rest well.


Amen.
 
2013-07-01 12:43:49 AM  

Redwing: AZcentral.com live video just showed pic of the 19 firefighters in a group photo. I thought next of kin had to be notified beforehand, and 19 families couldnt have been contacted that quick.

PS: 108 degrees!


Several sources have said that every single member of Prescott's wildfire team died. Once the number of dead and the fact that they were from Prescott became public, so did their identities.
 
2013-07-01 12:43:57 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: HeadLever: ArcadianRefugee: I drove through Arizona once. What the hell is there to burn?

Arizona has a good number of forests.  It is not all Phoenix.

[www.uygardergi.com image 456x374]

OK, I'll give you that possibility; they don't have too many roads through that kind of stuff that I went through.

What I did see? Dust devil, cactus, dust, dust, dust, sand, dust, dust, dust, sand, cactus, dust devil, another car...


You have to get pretty far off the interstates and away from Tucson and Phoenix to see the nicer sides of the state.
 
2013-07-01 12:44:02 AM  

Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?


For the Black Forest Fire here they had support from the National Guard, Peterson Air Force base, the Air Force Academy, Fort Carson, Buckley Air Force base, etc. with Chinook helicopters, C-130s, and the like.  The big DC-10 they brought in is privately owned IIRC.
 
2013-07-01 12:44:32 AM  

God-is-a-Taco: The men that fight those wildfires are among the best specimens humanity has to offer, both in strength of body and mind.
It's very sad to see them suffer such casualties.
RIP.


* wimmins, too :)
 
2013-07-01 12:46:00 AM  

thisdaydreamer: Redwing: AZcentral.com live video just showed pic of the 19 firefighters in a group photo. I thought next of kin had to be notified beforehand, and 19 families couldnt have been contacted that quick.

PS: 108 degrees!

Several sources have said that every single member of Prescott's wildfire team died. Once the number of dead and the fact that they were from Prescott became public, so did their identities.


Okay thanks.
 
2013-07-01 12:46:13 AM  

doglover: thisdaydreamer: doglover: thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?

Wildfires aren't called "tamefires" for a reason.

Nineteen lost at once is pretty farking extreme, even for a wildfire. The people in charge of those firefighters will have some very tough questions to answer.

Extreme?

Do you even Dresden?


And so it goes...
 
2013-07-01 12:46:47 AM  
Thaaaaat was supposed to be a sad face. Thanx phone I don't understand.
 
2013-07-01 12:46:47 AM  

thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?


Really?

Fire, dumbass.  Seriously - WTF?
 
2013-07-01 12:49:30 AM  
There is the theory of letting smaller fires burn to help the natural cycle and prevent fuel build up that leads to major fires.  The problem is there is increasing building in fire prone areas and all it takes is a change of conditions for a small fire to blow up and threaten homes and other structures.  If you let things burn, it can easily grow into something you can't stop and it may threaten structures soon.  However if you stop every little fire immeidately, over the course of years, fuel loads increase and then any fire becomes much more severe quickly.  Given the past few major fire incidents, this season it appears more aggressive suppression efforts are being used with more air and ground assets called in earlier to stop things at least in California.  While this can control things fast, it means more fire personnel are at risk and if conditions change, we can have tragedies like this.

There will be an investigation on what went wrong here.  Sadly it is a dangerous job and these horrible incidents do happen from time to time and sometimes there is simply nothing that could have been done.  We don't know if they were placed in a bad position, missed a deployment order, bad weather forcast, or simply bad luck and conditions changed due to localized weather that couldn't be predicted.  We will have to wait to find out the tragic events that led to this horrible outcome. The thoughts and prayers of people should go out to those fighting to save lives and property and the loved ones who will have to endure the loss of these firefighters.
 
2013-07-01 12:49:47 AM  

BiblioTech: Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?

For the Black Forest Fire here they had support from the National Guard, Peterson Air Force base, the Air Force Academy, Fort Carson, Buckley Air Force base, etc. with Chinook helicopters, C-130s, and the like.  The big DC-10 they brought in is privately owned IIRC.


They had all of that flying out of ABQ a couple of years back when there was a big fire up north of Santa Fe too.
IIRC, the DC-10 was working a fire up in northern NM again a couple of weeks ago (NM is on fire this year too, I think there are 4 or 5 going right now)

RIP to these guys.In years past I've done structural firefighting, ARFF, and HAZMAT, but wildland firefighting? Nope, even I'm too much of a chickenshiat for that.
 
2013-07-01 12:50:39 AM  
They were from Prescott.  During the Press Conference, the Fire Chief said that some of the families were notified of their firefighters deaths by email, accidentally. Wow.
 
2013-07-01 12:50:50 AM  
Spokeman at press conference just said that several families were notified inappropriately by media outlets before the officials were able to properly notify them.

Dick move, media!
 
2013-07-01 12:51:22 AM  
 Oh shiat. That is awful. All those guys, gone. I feel so bad for their families.
 
2013-07-01 12:51:28 AM  

BuckTurgidson: Yeah, right thread.


I'd give you a reasoned response but that side conversation is being deleted. And that's probably for the best, it isn't the right thread for that.

RIP firefighters.
 
2013-07-01 12:51:37 AM  

Knucklepopper: kombi: ElizaDoolittle: ongbok: ElizaDoolittle: kombi: Im going to assume it was like the incident in California. Mexican radio station blocked there radios and they did not get the pullout order. Tried to get out and burned up in there truck. But again just assuming. something like that.

So the Mexicans were to blame? Listen to me, you toad, if THEIR (yes, that's how you spell it correctly) radios could be blocked by any Mexican radio station, the fault lies with the FD, not any Mexican radio station.

Wow. People will find any way possible to throw the blame at Mexicans, or any minority, won't they?

Apparently some will, but forget them.  I shouldn't have gotten so angry. Respect the dead; respect their families, and the loss they are experiencing. Show compassion for the children who have lost a parent and the spouses who have lost a partner.

I love how nowadays you mention something that happened. And give the facts but all of a sudden,...RACIST. I tell something that is true. How some fire fighters died in San Diego County. But no RACIST. I did not blame Mexicans. The article said it was caused by lightning. Have no reason not to believe that.

I think the point in question is your claim that Mexican radio stations "blocked" their radios.


It did. See our biggest radio stations. Nicknamed flamethrower broadcast at 50,000 watts. They have no limit. Wolfgang Jack broadcasted on AM from TJ and covered the whole US and parts of Canada on 1,000,000 Watts. It just overloaded there radios and they did not get the pullout order. It happened.

Radio is a biatch sometimes. Atmospheric condition's, weather, You name it. It will effect it. And it does not have to be on the same freq. Think of it this way. Your driving down the road. Turn the radio to am and you hear a buzz or hum from the engine. Same concept.
 
2013-07-01 12:52:25 AM  

brantgoose: Not including the 19 deaths reported in Arizona, there have been 43 firefighter fatalities reported so far in 2013, according to the U.S. Fire Administration. A total of 83 firefighters died last year while on duty.


21 of last year's 83 deaths were from fighting fires. About a quarter died in traffic accidents, and half died of heart attacks or strokes...they were "on duty," but it's worth making a distinction between dying in the line of duty, and dying from eating too many donuts.
 
2013-07-01 12:52:41 AM  

Redwing: Spokeman at press conference just said that several families were notified inappropriately by media outlets before the officials were able to properly notify them.

Dick move, media!


Oh ffs. My earlier comment was not aimed at reporters contacting family members who hadn't been notified. Dick move, indeed.
 
2013-07-01 12:53:40 AM  
This is a forest fire

0:00 start of video showing arrival of radiant heat pulse from fire behind camera.
0:17 First flame appears on forest floor.  Area ignition, similar to flashover, begins.
0:40 Fire hits peak heat of 850 degrees C and begins to cool.
1:35 direct sunlight on the forest floor, the fire has passed through.

A minute and a half, start to finish.

A man would have been dead in fifteen seconds.
 
2013-07-01 12:54:34 AM  
i1.ytimg.com
 
2013-07-01 12:54:58 AM  
  Have many friends who work fighting forest fires here in BC, for both the government and private contractors. So sad to hear about this tragedy. Been to a few to many funerals for folks in this line of work. Much respect for all their efforts, condolences to their friends and families.
 
2013-07-01 12:54:59 AM  
If these people were killed trying to save summer cabins that were surrounded by "decorative" scrub and trees, then fark the homeowners.

Nobody should die trying to save a cabin. Let it burn.

/high temp and high winds are a lethal combination.
/i wonder if these were prison crews.
 
2013-07-01 12:55:02 AM  

gfid: thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?

Really?

Fire, dumbass.  Seriously - WTF?


This is the largest of of firefighters since 9/11 and I'm a dumbass for wondering what could have gone so horribly wrong as to wipe out an entire fire department?
 
2013-07-01 12:55:06 AM  
The Hawaii Mars was here for a few summers. We have a few videos up here. What a team that is. There is a whole ground crew that goes with it. They saved our ass a few times.

Hawaii Mars
 
2013-07-01 12:55:10 AM  

gfid: thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?

Really?

Fire, dumbass.  Seriously - WTF?


I think he meant tactic-wise.

Calm down. People say stupid shiat accidentally.

If he didn't mean that, then sorry, I'm a stupid.
 
2013-07-01 12:56:13 AM  
*largest loss

Maybe time to walk away from the internet for the night.
 
2013-07-01 12:56:42 AM  

kombi: Knucklepopper: kombi: ElizaDoolittle: ongbok: ElizaDoolittle: kombi: Im going to assume it was like the incident in California. Mexican radio station blocked there radios and they did not get the pullout order. Tried to get out and burned up in there truck. But again just assuming. something like that.

So the Mexicans were to blame? Listen to me, you toad, if THEIR (yes, that's how you spell it correctly) radios could be blocked by any Mexican radio station, the fault lies with the FD, not any Mexican radio station.

Wow. People will find any way possible to throw the blame at Mexicans, or any minority, won't they?

Apparently some will, but forget them.  I shouldn't have gotten so angry. Respect the dead; respect their families, and the loss they are experiencing. Show compassion for the children who have lost a parent and the spouses who have lost a partner.

I love how nowadays you mention something that happened. And give the facts but all of a sudden,...RACIST. I tell something that is true. How some fire fighters died in San Diego County. But no RACIST. I did not blame Mexicans. The article said it was caused by lightning. Have no reason not to believe that.

I think the point in question is your claim that Mexican radio stations "blocked" their radios.

It did. See our biggest radio stations. Nicknamed flamethrower broadcast at 50,000 watts. They have no limit. Wolfgang Jack broadcasted on AM from TJ and covered the whole US and parts of Canada on 1,000,000 Watts. It just overloaded there radios and they did not get the pullout order. It happened.

Radio is a biatch sometimes. Atmospheric condition's, weather, You name it. It will effect it. And it does not have to be on the same freq. Think of it this way. Your driving down the road. Turn the radio to am and you hear a buzz or hum from the engine. Same concept.


Citation, please. And not to Wolfman Jack but to your claim about those firefighters' deaths.
 
2013-07-01 12:57:21 AM  

megarian: gfid: thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?

Really?

Fire, dumbass.  Seriously - WTF?

I think he meant tactic-wise.

Calm down. People say stupid shiat accidentally.

If he didn't mean that, then sorry, I'm a stupid.


Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant.
 
2013-07-01 12:57:58 AM  

buzzcut73: RIP to these guys.In years past I've done structural firefighting, ARFF, and HAZMAT, but wildland firefighting? Nope, even I'm too much of a chickenshiat for that.


The ones I can't even begin to fathom are smokejumpers.  What kind of person do you have to be to jump out of a plane into a fire?
 
2013-07-01 12:58:26 AM  
GD, and we thought out here when 14 fire fighters died on Storm King mountain (1994) at the city limits of Glenwood Springs, CO that was bad as it got. But 18 in one Hotshot company? That's tough to swallow.

www.durangoherald.com

That fire ran up their ravine so fast and so hot Prineville Hotshots along with jumpers from Missoula, McCall and Helitack could not run quick enough to escape or move laterally quick enough. With hellish winds roaring up the ravine like a hurricane and temperatures hot enough to set the very ground on fire they made the decision to shelter in their last resort aluminum and glass fiber 'shake and bake' survival tents. Afterwards it was determined they were incinerated.

These men and women deserve every possible respect we can muster. There are none like them. Tough sons of biatches all. (get me a kleenex) Some give all. Do not forget.
 
2013-07-01 12:59:11 AM  
3.bp.blogspot.com

Metal roofs. Steel structures. No one died saving this house.

I guess it's just too expensive for some people.
 
2013-07-01 12:59:33 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: If these people were killed trying to save summer cabins that were surrounded by "decorative" scrub and trees, then fark the homeowners.

Nobody should die trying to save a cabin. Let it burn.

/high temp and high winds are a lethal combination.
/i wonder if these were prison crews.


Not many summer homes in Yarnell. Mostly retirees and ranch workers I think.

The crew was the Granite Mountain Hotshots - nothing like a prison crew.
 
2013-07-01 12:59:40 AM  

Daedalus27: There is the theory of letting smaller fires burn to help the natural cycle and prevent fuel build up that leads to major fires.  The problem is there is increasing building in fire prone areas and all it takes is a change of conditions for a small fire to blow up and threaten homes and other structures.  If you let things burn, it can easily grow into something you can't stop and it may threaten structures soon.  However if you stop every little fire immeidately, over the course of years, fuel loads increase and then any fire becomes much more severe quickly.  Given the past few major fire incidents, this season it appears more aggressive suppression efforts are being used with more air and ground assets called in earlier to stop things at least in California.  While this can control things fast, it means more fire personnel are at risk and if conditions change, we can have tragedies like this.

There will be an investigation on what went wrong here.  Sadly it is a dangerous job and these horrible incidents do happen from time to time and sometimes there is simply nothing that could have been done.  We don't know if they were placed in a bad position, missed a deployment order, bad weather forcast, or simply bad luck and conditions changed due to localized weather that couldn't be predicted.  We will have to wait to find out the tragic events that led to this horrible outcome. The thoughts and prayers of people should go out to those fighting to save lives and property and the loved ones who will have to endure the loss of these firefighters.


Well said. Wiki has a good history as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wildfire_suppression_in_the_ Un ited_States

Appears it wasn't until the '60s that people in charge started understanding that fire is part of the natural process.
 
2013-07-01 01:00:14 AM  
Unfortunately, we'll have to get used to this shiat. F*ckin' heroes.

imageshack.com
 
2013-07-01 01:00:19 AM  

Snapper Carr: thisdaydreamer: What the farking hell happened?

FIRE BAD


tree pretty :(
 
2013-07-01 01:01:50 AM  

Ivo Shandor: WippitGuud: You could buy some 415 Superscoopers from Canada.

As long as there is a lake nearby, this thing takes in 1,620 gallon of water in literally 10 seconds.

Or one of these, which holds 7200 gallons:
[i.imgur.com image 638x493]


Actually, that one may have been retired. There is a phase out of those older 1940s-60s aircraft.  The Department of Interior has been pushing to modernize the firefighting aircraft after several horrible accidents including this one where the planes wings folded during manuvers, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n06WNSS4tFs.  This means many tankers are being replaced but there is lower capacity at present while new designs are being certified and built.

There is a push for larger tankers like the DC-10, but that has issues as stated above needing larger airfields, operating conditions are more specific due to manuverability issues, and longer turn around times.  The DC-10 was under CA contract exclusively but due to the costs there is a national contract so it moves around to major incidents as needed. The 747 tanker by evergreen is still being tested as far as I know and hasn't been contracted out yet.  There are a couple more large converted civilian and cargo aircraft being tested for firefighting duties.
 
2013-07-01 01:02:39 AM  

JesseL: TheShavingofOccam123: If these people were killed trying to save summer cabins that were surrounded by "decorative" scrub and trees, then fark the homeowners.

Nobody should die trying to save a cabin. Let it burn.

/high temp and high winds are a lethal combination.
/i wonder if these were prison crews.

Not many summer homes in Yarnell. Mostly retirees and ranch workers I think.

The crew was the Granite Mountain Hotshots - nothing like a prison crew.


Thank you for the info. I couldn't load the link.
 
2013-07-01 01:04:35 AM  
They're saying 250 homes lost. I didn't even know Yarnell had 250 homes.

http://goo.gl/maps/6Cdmj
 
2013-07-01 01:06:16 AM  

JesseL: They're saying 250 homes lost. I didn't even know Yarnell had 250 homes.

http://goo.gl/maps/6Cdmj


Yikes :(
 
2013-07-01 01:06:47 AM  

Knucklepopper: kombi: Knucklepopper: kombi: ElizaDoolittle: ongbok: ElizaDoolittle: kombi: Im going to assume it was like the incident in California. Mexican radio station blocked there radios and they did not get the pullout order. Tried to get out and burned up in there truck. But again just assuming. something like that.

So the Mexicans were to blame? Listen to me, you toad, if THEIR (yes, that's how you spell it correctly) radios could be blocked by any Mexican radio station, the fault lies with the FD, not any Mexican radio station.

Wow. People will find any way possible to throw the blame at Mexicans, or any minority, won't they?

Apparently some will, but forget them.  I shouldn't have gotten so angry. Respect the dead; respect their families, and the loss they are experiencing. Show compassion for the children who have lost a parent and the spouses who have lost a partner.

I love how nowadays you mention something that happened. And give the facts but all of a sudden,...RACIST. I tell something that is true. How some fire fighters died in San Diego County. But no RACIST. I did not blame Mexicans. The article said it was caused by lightning. Have no reason not to believe that.

I think the point in question is your claim that Mexican radio stations "blocked" their radios.

It did. See our biggest radio stations. Nicknamed flamethrower broadcast at 50,000 watts. They have no limit. Wolfgang Jack broadcasted on AM from TJ and covered the whole US and parts of Canada on 1,000,000 Watts. It just overloaded there radios and they did not get the pullout order. It happened.

Radio is a biatch sometimes. Atmospheric condition's, weather, You name it. It will effect it. And it does not have to be on the same freq. Think of it this way. Your driving down the road. Turn the radio to am and you hear a buzz or hum from the engine. Same concept.

Citation, please. And not to Wolfman Jack but to your claim about those firefighters' deaths.


Looking. It was October of 03. There where 2 huge fires in socal at the time. One from Big Bear to Ventura County and one from Mexico to north of Temecula. Oh and the one In SD county was caused by a hunter launching a signal flare after getting lost.
 
2013-07-01 01:07:21 AM  

thisdaydreamer: This is the largest [loss] of of firefighters since 9/11 and I'm a dumbass for wondering what could have gone so horribly wrong as to wipe out an entire fire department?


I might be able to make that statement stronger.

There's a small chance that this is the largest number of firefighters to perish in a single wildfire. I looked through the Wikipedia list of wildfires for "firefighter", and the highest number of deaths listed under that term was 18, in a 1971 Japan fire. It's totally possible Wikipedia is missing something or uses a different term or something, but... it's also possible that it isn't.

Actually, barring 9/11, I can't think of  anysingle event that had a higher firefighter toll. Not that I'd really expect to, but... yeah, this is bad.
 
2013-07-01 01:09:09 AM  
farking Christ. This isn't real, right? This is another FARK bad joke?
 
2013-07-01 01:09:46 AM  

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: It's 19 now - the entire team is confirmed dead.


Oh, and fark you channel 12 news who decided to make an hour long show out of a breaking story with no details.  We've now had a demonstration of a fire shelter. And alame Q&A session with a senator about whether sequestration has anything to do with this.


The media creates a monstrous clusterf*ck in times like this. The fiasco they caused with the Esperanza fatalities in October 2006... well, I'll just stop there. Let's just say they're no help 99.5% of the time.
 
2013-07-01 01:09:54 AM  

evaned: I can't think of anysingle event that had a higher firefighter toll.


The Big Burn did
 
2013-07-01 01:12:22 AM  

HeadLever: evaned: I can't think of anysingle event that had a higher firefighter toll.

The Big Burn did


I think PBS did a documentary on the big burn. Fascinating story.
 
2013-07-01 01:12:48 AM  

JesseL: TheShavingofOccam123: If these people were killed trying to save summer cabins that were surrounded by "decorative" scrub and trees, then fark the homeowners.

Nobody should die trying to save a cabin. Let it burn.

/high temp and high winds are a lethal combination.
/i wonder if these were prison crews.

Not many summer homes in Yarnell. Mostly retirees and ranch workers I think.

The crew was the Granite Mountain Hotshots - nothing like a prison crew.


Don't knock the prison crews.  They are godsend and a very budget friendly resource that does difficult jobs freeing up the civilian firefighters for other tasks.  They are a valuable resource for many states that simply wouldn't be able to offer the same level of service to fight fires, do search and rescue work, and engage in flood relief.  They may be prisoners, but they work their butts off doing a very difficult and dangerous job.  All while they earn a dollar or so an hour and earn some good time credits to reduce their sentences which is a bargain.
 
2013-07-01 01:13:08 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?

They have them. We use them out here in CA by the ocean. The problem is you need not only big planes, but big runways, and also big lakes with enough room for the big planes to fly down and scoop up a hold full of water without losing enough airspeed to take off again. There's room over an ocean; often not much over a lake. Also, big planes use a lot of expensive fuel--is your county wealthy enough to afford it? L.A. County almost couldn't.


BiblioTech: Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?

For the Black Forest Fire here they had support from the National Guard, Peterson Air Force base, the Air Force Academy, Fort Carson, Buckley Air Force base, etc. with Chinook helicopters, C-130s, and the like.  The big DC-10 they brought in is privately owned IIRC.


WippitGuud: Allen. The end.: This sucks. You know, I constantly have big military planes flying over my house...is there no way we could come up with a federal emergency plan that uses these giant planes to dump h20, suppressants, etc. on these fires?

You could buy some 415 Superscoopers from Canada.

As long as there is a lake nearby, this thing takes in 1,620 gallon of water in literally 10 seconds.

Thanks for the info, gang. Still, the entire situation sucks...Sometimes logistics can only take you so far, I guess...
 
2013-07-01 01:13:09 AM  
Damn.
 
2013-07-01 01:14:41 AM  
This guy runs a site dedicated to wild land fire. Lots of information for you guys
http://wildfiretoday.com/
 
2013-07-01 01:15:27 AM  

Daedalus27: Actually, that one may have been retired. There is a phase out of those older 1940s-60s aircraft.


There's one still flying (based in Port Alberni BC), although the province recently announced that they are not renewing its contract.
 
2013-07-01 01:15:49 AM  

Daedalus27: JesseL: TheShavingofOccam123: If these people were killed trying to save summer cabins that were surrounded by "decorative" scrub and trees, then fark the homeowners.

Nobody should die trying to save a cabin. Let it burn.

/high temp and high winds are a lethal combination.
/i wonder if these were prison crews.

Not many summer homes in Yarnell. Mostly retirees and ranch workers I think.

The crew was the Granite Mountain Hotshots - nothing like a prison crew.

Don't knock the prison crews.  They are godsend and a very budget friendly resource that does difficult jobs freeing up the civilian firefighters for other tasks.  They are a valuable resource for many states that simply wouldn't be able to offer the same level of service to fight fires, do search and rescue work, and engage in flood relief.  They may be prisoners, but they work their butts off doing a very difficult and dangerous job.  All while they earn a dollar or so an hour and earn some good time credits to reduce their sentences which is a bargain.


No slight intended toward prison crews. Just clarifying that that's not what these guys were.
 
2013-07-01 01:18:33 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: I think PBS did a documentary on the big burn.


Not sure about PBS, but Outdoor Idaho did a show on it.  Of course, being from Idaho, Pulaski is one of our folk heros.
 
2013-07-01 01:19:04 AM  
Per Gawker: "deadliest wildfire in 80 years, and the worst loss of life for firefighters since 9/11"
 
2013-07-01 01:19:26 AM  
Holy crap. The Great Chicago Fire, the Peshtigo Fire and the Great Michigan Fire all happened on the same day.

1700 died in the Peshtigo, at minimum 500 in the Michigan fire and another 300 in the Chicago fire.

That was not a good day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wildfires#North_America
 
2013-07-01 01:20:30 AM  

HeadLever: evaned: I can't think of anysingle event that had a higher firefighter toll.

The Big Burn did


Thanks. I've added that to the list of firefighters page. :-) Like I said, I'm not even remotely surprised that I didn't know of something.

Actually there are probably a couple of others on that list (e.g. "a firestorm that caused the most deaths by fire in United States history, killing as many as 1,500, possibly as many as 2,500") that would count, but don't have explicit counts for firefighters, even in the actual article.
 
2013-07-01 01:21:18 AM  
Hot shots have to be bad ass, here. I mean they are humping a lot of gear in really hot weather with little water and they are trying to create fire lines with what they have.

I hiked on Saturday when it was 118 and I only carried water. It was so damn hot I had a hard time breathing. These guys are in that shiat with their gear, digging and clearing brush, swinging axes AND near flames that are even hotter.

They will be missed.

This link shows the drought and how bad it is getting. Water is everything out here. The reason for south wilderness is because of lack of water.

http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/
 
2013-07-01 01:23:07 AM  
"So much wilderness"

Stupid autocorrect.
 
2013-07-01 01:24:14 AM  

SilentStrider: Damn.


Just watched a episode of Mighty Planes on Smithsonian channel. There are only 2 of thoughs planes left. The rest are being used for parts.
 
2013-07-01 01:25:39 AM  
Time to call in the big boys:

www.dannyclisham.com
 
2013-07-01 01:25:49 AM  
Ivo Shandor

WippitGuud: You could buy some 415 Superscoopers from Canada.

As long as there is a lake nearby, this thing takes in 1,620 gallon of water in literally 10 seconds.

Or one of these, which holds 7200 gallons:


Sometimes just one small helicopter is all you need.
 
2013-07-01 01:26:05 AM  
I live in Kingman, Arizona. I just went outside five minutes ago and watched a fire in the Hualapai Mountains crest the summit. Lots of houses up there, my sis-in-law's father's included. This is gonna be an ugly Summer.

/111 degrees today
 
2013-07-01 01:28:07 AM  
Went hiking in Mann Gulch a week ago:

drewblood.com

Very sad that the cycle has to continue.
 
2013-07-01 01:29:31 AM  
"These aren't the 2 firefighters who died."

Then why show them!
 
2013-07-01 01:30:41 AM  

T Baggins: brantgoose: Not including the 19 deaths reported in Arizona, there have been 43 firefighter fatalities reported so far in 2013, according to the U.S. Fire Administration. A total of 83 firefighters died last year while on duty.


Let's not forget the volunteers from West, TX.
 
2013-07-01 01:31:06 AM  
It too late now, but Yarnell needs Shields. It's like peanut butter with no jelly.
 
2013-07-01 01:31:18 AM  

eddievercetti: "These aren't the 2 firefighters who died."

Then why show them!


But how else would I know what a firefighter looks like? Do they have tentacles? Antlers? Gigantic balls?
 
2013-07-01 01:31:29 AM  

Nadie_AZ: Hot shots have to be bad ass, here. I mean they are humping a lot of gear in really hot weather with little water and they are trying to create fire lines with what they have.

I hiked on Saturday when it was 118 and I only carried water. It was so damn hot I had a hard time breathing. These guys are in that shiat with their gear, digging and clearing brush, swinging axes AND near flames that are even hotter.


I can't imagine doing that. Growing up in Tempe, I remember the blast furnace that is summer for: not being able to touch the seatbelt until the AC got going, the swimming pool being the temp of bath water, toddlers going to the hospital for burns after falling on sidewalks. Those tasks you described, yeah, absolutely hellish.
 
2013-07-01 01:32:42 AM  
"One of the last fail safe methods that a firefighter can do under those conditions is literally to dig as much as they can down and cover themselves with a protective - kinda looks like a foil type- fire-resistant material - with the desire, the hope at least, is that the fire will burn over the top of them and they can survive it," Fraijo said.
"Under certain conditions there's usually only sometimes a 50 percent chance that they survive," he said. "It's an extreme measure that's taken under the absolute worst conditions."
 
2013-07-01 01:33:06 AM  
This is an article about the Granite Mountain Hotshots from last year: http://cronkitenewsonline.com/2012/04/for-hotshot-fire-crews-training - can-be-a-matter-of-life-and-death/
 
2013-07-01 01:35:11 AM  

studebaker hoch: This is a forest fire

0:00 start of video showing arrival of radiant heat pulse from fire behind camera.
0:17 First flame appears on forest floor.  Area ignition, similar to flashover, begins.
0:40 Fire hits peak heat of 850 degrees C and begins to cool.
1:35 direct sunlight on the forest floor, the fire has passed through.

A minute and a half, start to finish.

A man would have been dead in fifteen seconds.


That is ... sobering.
 
2013-07-01 01:35:57 AM  
farm3.staticflickr.com

We have watched plenty of helicopters dipping into the lake - always a thrill - and have a great team of
Hot Shots up the hill...but watching the Coulson tanker was incredible. Loved having the Hawaii Mars on
Lake Elsinore in '07 - and such a feeling of security! She fought a lot of fires that year, and you always
knew when she was taking off. Awesome.

farm3.staticflickr.com
 
2013-07-01 01:36:40 AM  

Prometheus_Unbound: Just saw that on the news. So sad. People like that are why there's a hero tag.

RIP


Yet we gush with praise over our volunteer military but ignore the daily sacrifice of firefighters, EMTs, cops, etc. who put their life on the line every day of their entire careers which my span 30-40 years not just some 4-6 year period in their youth they signed up for to pay for school or to escape East Bumfark, Flyover State.
 
2013-07-01 01:36:46 AM  
Get used to it, boys and girls, it's only going to get worse as time rolls on.
 
2013-07-01 01:37:29 AM  

WippitGuud: HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.

So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?


No. he's just an MMQB douchebag that would be the first to criticize not fighting it over the death of a resident that didn't evacuate.  He's too stoopid to understand that not one firefighter died to save a tree or a house.  A despicable moron.
 
2013-07-01 01:38:32 AM  
lh4.googleusercontent.com

This one is from 2011, there are more hi-res pics here:
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/prescott/home/?cid=stelprdb5347883
 
2013-07-01 01:45:04 AM  

thisisyourbrainonFark: studebaker hoch: This is a forest fire

0:00 start of video showing arrival of radiant heat pulse from fire behind camera.
0:17 First flame appears on forest floor.  Area ignition, similar to flashover, begins.
0:40 Fire hits peak heat of 850 degrees C and begins to cool.
1:35 direct sunlight on the forest floor, the fire has passed through.

A minute and a half, start to finish.

A man would have been dead in fifteen seconds.

That is ... sobering.


Yeah.

All the assholes here saying "Who do we blame!?" really have to watch this on a loop until they get it.

18 guys can easily be incinerated or suffocated by a forest fire with a little gust of wind behind it, even if they do everything right. Fire's awesome, as in that it's worthy of awe, and terrible.
 
2013-07-01 01:46:01 AM  

BiblioTech: buzzcut73: RIP to these guys.In years past I've done structural firefighting, ARFF, and HAZMAT, but wildland firefighting? Nope, even I'm too much of a chickenshiat for that.

The ones I can't even begin to fathom are smokejumpers.  What kind of person do you have to be to jump out of a plane into a fire?


Heroes.
 
2013-07-01 01:46:52 AM  

the801: here wouldn't BE people dying in fires if you people would not go where the FIRE IS!


I have some friends that have been living in Colorado for the last few years.  After seeing them bug out each and every year during fire season, I wondering if maybe building thinly spread out suburbs in the 'country' is such a good idea.
 
2013-07-01 01:49:36 AM  
From my admittedly limited understanding, forest fires are both natural and important to the environment in that part of the country, and yet they're actively suppressed?

And then when fires do happen due to drought, bad things happen due to an abundance of old wood and brush that normally would have been burned off in a small fire every other year or so...

Or am I reading the situation wrong?
 
2013-07-01 01:50:39 AM  
I'm on a fire northwest of there. There's no report out yet, but I'm guessing that the same thunderstorm downdrafts that drove our guys off the hill are what killed them.

Situational awareness and LCES should have saved them, though. This is a shiatty day for the fire community.
 
2013-07-01 01:50:55 AM  

gibbon1: the801: here wouldn't BE people dying in fires if you people would not go where the FIRE IS!

I have some friends that have been living in Colorado for the last few years.  After seeing them bug out each and every year during fire season, I wondering if maybe building thinly spread out suburbs in the 'country' is such a good idea.


Do live somewhere completely protected from natural disasters? Honest question. I live in the mountains of Colorado and worry about wildfire, but it still beats city life.
 
2013-07-01 01:51:09 AM  

wakitu: [farm3.staticflickr.com image 640x480]

We have watched plenty of helicopters dipping into the lake - always a thrill - and have a great team of
Hot Shots up the hill...but watching the Coulson tanker was incredible. Loved having the Hawaii Mars on
Lake Elsinore in '07 - and such a feeling of security! She fought a lot of fires that year, and you always
knew when she was taking off. Awesome.

[farm3.staticflickr.com image 640x480]


Great documentary on them. Mighty Planes on Smithsonian. They where flying to the Texas/Mexico boarder. Lake Elsinore Was the only lake they could land at on the way. There are only 2 planes left. The rest are used for parts.
 
2013-07-01 01:52:49 AM  

Whistling Kitty Chaser: I'm on a fire northwest of there. There's no report out yet, but I'm guessing that the same thunderstorm downdrafts that drove our guys off the hill are what killed them.

Situational awareness and LCES should have saved them, though. This is a shiatty day for the fire community.


Are you on the Hualapai Mountain fire? If so, let me know if you need anything, I'm about 10 minutes drive away. EIP.
 
2013-07-01 01:52:58 AM  
*you
 
2013-07-01 01:54:30 AM  

Infernalist: From my admittedly limited understanding, forest fires are both natural and important to the environment in that part of the country, and yet they're actively suppressed?

And then when fires do happen due to drought, bad things happen due to an abundance of old wood and brush that normally would have been burned off in a small fire every other year or so...

Or am I reading the situation wrong?


Up until 10 years ago or so, that was the case.

Now they try to just contain the fires as best they can while keeping structures safe and avoiding letting them become unmanageable. They do controlled burns when conditions aren't so explosive in order to keep too much fuel from accumulating on the forest floor, and there's an effort to thin the trees back to their natural density of a couple dozen per acre instead of the hundreds per acre we see as a result of decades of absolute suppression.
 
2013-07-01 01:55:23 AM  
Reichling said the 19 firefighters were found in an area that also had 19 fire shelters deployed. Some of the firefighters were inside a shelter, which is typically used as a last resort to withstand the fire as it blows over. Some of the crew members were found outside the shelters.

Well that answers the shelter question.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130630crews-fightin g- small-fires-around-Arizona.html?nclick_check=1
 
2013-07-01 01:59:05 AM  

doglover: thisisyourbrainonFark: studebaker hoch: This is a forest fire

0:00 start of video showing arrival of radiant heat pulse from fire behind camera.
0:17 First flame appears on forest floor.  Area ignition, similar to flashover, begins.
0:40 Fire hits peak heat of 850 degrees C and begins to cool.
1:35 direct sunlight on the forest floor, the fire has passed through.

A minute and a half, start to finish.

A man would have been dead in fifteen seconds.

That is ... sobering.

Yeah.

All the assholes here saying "Who do we blame!?" really have to watch this on a loop until they get it.

18 guys can easily be incinerated or suffocated by a forest fire with a little gust of wind behind it, even if they do everything right. Fire's awesome, as in that it's worthy of awe, and terrible.


The most amazing thing is when the fires get into the canopy. The tops of the trees explode and burning pitch and wood just flies everywhere, setting another set of trees on fire. And on and on. The fires get so big they have their own weather system. Just amazing.
 
2013-07-01 01:59:32 AM  
I have friends on the department.  The fire suddenly backtracked on them.  They didn't have time to run, so they tried to get in their fire shelters and it overtook them.  Fark folks, this is NOT the time to be criticizing how these brave men and women did their jobs.  I went to school with many of them, and taught EMT classes.  Good people died today doing their jobs.  Praise them for their bravery, and pray for the ones left behind.
 
2013-07-01 02:00:22 AM  

WippitGuud: What is a "hotshot crew"


They are considered elite among wildland fire crews, they're kind of like the special forces of fighting a wildfire.  They have some of the highest physical standards and training because they go to where it might take some very quick and dangerous work to halt a fires progress.
 
2013-07-01 02:00:55 AM  

nullptr: //also a smokey bear commercial is on WLS 890 AM right now =|


late night WLS, once caught it about 250 miles from Chicago, and I know it can reach further.
 
2013-07-01 02:01:55 AM  
The valley of the shadow of death
 
2013-07-01 02:06:36 AM  

JesseL: Infernalist: From my admittedly limited understanding, forest fires are both natural and important to the environment in that part of the country, and yet they're actively suppressed?

And then when fires do happen due to drought, bad things happen due to an abundance of old wood and brush that normally would have been burned off in a small fire every other year or so...

Or am I reading the situation wrong?

Up until 10 years ago or so, that was the case.

Now they try to just contain the fires as best they can while keeping structures safe and avoiding letting them become unmanageable. They do controlled burns when conditions aren't so explosive in order to keep too much fuel from accumulating on the forest floor, and there's an effort to thin the trees back to their natural density of a couple dozen per acre instead of the hundreds per acre we see as a result of decades of absolute suppression.


Well, good on them, then.  I'm guessing the new system works better, so what exactly went wrong here?

Wrong place, wrong time?
 
2013-07-01 02:08:46 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: doglover: thisisyourbrainonFark: studebaker hoch: This is a forest fire

0:00 start of video showing arrival of radiant heat pulse from fire behind camera.
0:17 First flame appears on forest floor.  Area ignition, similar to flashover, begins.
0:40 Fire hits peak heat of 850 degrees C and begins to cool.
1:35 direct sunlight on the forest floor, the fire has passed through.

A minute and a half, start to finish.

A man would have been dead in fifteen seconds.

That is ... sobering.

Yeah.

All the assholes here saying "Who do we blame!?" really have to watch this on a loop until they get it.

18 guys can easily be incinerated or suffocated by a forest fire with a little gust of wind behind it, even if they do everything right. Fire's awesome, as in that it's worthy of awe, and terrible.

The most amazing thing is when the fires get into the canopy. The tops of the trees explode and burning pitch and wood just flies everywhere, setting another set of trees on fire. And on and on. The fires get so big they have their own weather system. Just amazing.


Call it "crowning" we really didn't see too much of that from my position reporting on Black Forest, didn't realize how bad that got until the sheriff gave the first estimate of homes lost.  People really don't realize that these things aren't grass fires, Waldo Canyon swept into Colorado Springs moving 60 mph at one point with flames 60 feet in the air.
 
2013-07-01 02:09:48 AM  

Infernalist: JesseL: Infernalist: From my admittedly limited understanding, forest fires are both natural and important to the environment in that part of the country, and yet they're actively suppressed?

And then when fires do happen due to drought, bad things happen due to an abundance of old wood and brush that normally would have been burned off in a small fire every other year or so...

Or am I reading the situation wrong?

Up until 10 years ago or so, that was the case.

Now they try to just contain the fires as best they can while keeping structures safe and avoiding letting them become unmanageable. They do controlled burns when conditions aren't so explosive in order to keep too much fuel from accumulating on the forest floor, and there's an effort to thin the trees back to their natural density of a couple dozen per acre instead of the hundreds per acre we see as a result of decades of absolute suppression.

Well, good on them, then.  I'm guessing the new system works better, so what exactly went wrong here?

Wrong place, wrong time?


The wind suddenly picked up and changed direction due to a thunderstorm that popped up to the north east of the fire, so the fire flared up hugely and moved in on the hotshots from a new direction.

I live about 30 miles east of the fire and the wind around that time was gusting 30-40 mph.
 
2013-07-01 02:10:54 AM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Whistling Kitty Chaser: I'm on a fire northwest of there. There's no report out yet, but I'm guessing that the same thunderstorm downdrafts that drove our guys off the hill are what killed them.

Situational awareness and LCES should have saved them, though. This is a shiatty day for the fire community.

Are you on the Hualapai Mountain fire? If so, let me know if you need anything, I'm about 10 minutes drive away. EIP.


Yeah, that's the fire I'm on. Dean Peak. I'm pretty set, but I owe you a beer for the sponsorship a couple of months back.
 
2013-07-01 02:11:57 AM  

Infernalist: JesseL: Infernalist: From my admittedly limited understanding, forest fires are both natural and important to the environment in that part of the country, and yet they're actively suppressed?

And then when fires do happen due to drought, bad things happen due to an abundance of old wood and brush that normally would have been burned off in a small fire every other year or so...

Or am I reading the situation wrong?

Up until 10 years ago or so, that was the case.

Now they try to just contain the fires as best they can while keeping structures safe and avoiding letting them become unmanageable. They do controlled burns when conditions aren't so explosive in order to keep too much fuel from accumulating on the forest floor, and there's an effort to thin the trees back to their natural density of a couple dozen per acre instead of the hundreds per acre we see as a result of decades of absolute suppression.

Well, good on them, then.  I'm guessing the new system works better, so what exactly went wrong here?

Wrong place, wrong time?


Man vs. Nature. Man sometimes loses.
 
2013-07-01 02:23:18 AM  

JesseL: Infernalist: From my admittedly limited understanding, forest fires are both natural and important to the environment in that part of the country, and yet they're actively suppressed?

And then when fires do happen due to drought, bad things happen due to an abundance of old wood and brush that normally would have been burned off in a small fire every other year or so...

Or am I reading the situation wrong?

Up until 10 years ago or so, that was the case.

Now they try to just contain the fires as best they can while keeping structures safe and avoiding letting them become unmanageable. They do controlled burns when conditions aren't so explosive in order to keep too much fuel from accumulating on the forest floor, and there's an effort to thin the trees back to their natural density of a couple dozen per acre instead of the hundreds per acre we see as a result of decades of absolute suppression.


There is the added wrinkle from invasive species destruction of trees.  Bark beattles from China invaded the US years ago and have been fairly quickly killing numerous trees of various types.  This extra tree death leaves large strands of ready tinder so any fires that do break out in these ares have massive growth potential.  Live trees can resist smaller fires but dead trees are just a large fuel source to make a small fire blow up.  The costs involved with preemptively removing these dead trees means only the ones closest to structures or particularly dangerous are removed and the problem continues to grow as the beattles eat their way through forest after forest.
 
2013-07-01 02:23:25 AM  

Whistling Kitty Chaser: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Whistling Kitty Chaser: I'm on a fire northwest of there. There's no report out yet, but I'm guessing that the same thunderstorm downdrafts that drove our guys off the hill are what killed them.

Situational awareness and LCES should have saved them, though. This is a shiatty day for the fire community.

Are you on the Hualapai Mountain fire? If so, let me know if you need anything, I'm about 10 minutes drive away. EIP.

Yeah, that's the fire I'm on. Dean Peak. I'm pretty set, but I owe you a beer for the sponsorship a couple of months back.


I've been watching it from my front yard. Stay safe, and I'll consider us even. Shout out if you need anything.
 
2013-07-01 02:23:50 AM  

Infernalist: From my admittedly limited understanding, forest fires are both natural and important to the environment in that part of the country, and yet they're actively suppressed?

And then when fires do happen due to drought, bad things happen due to an abundance of old wood and brush that normally would have been burned off in a small fire every other year or so...

Or am I reading the situation wrong?


Arizona wildfires have never been shown to have been caused by illegal immigrants, despite the Arizona political leadership's best efforts to convince us that Mexicans, not years of hot dry weather and lightning strikes, incinerate our fair nation.

I don't like to imagine the last moments of these firefighters' lives. Last month, when my own state burned and half a thousand homes reduced to ashes I tried to think of my neighbors whose homes and stuff were capriciously incinerated while some of their neighbors were spared.

But mostly I thought about the miserable days of the volunteers in full firefighting gear hauling ass along the one-lane roads and driveways of the prestigious ultra-libertarian Black Forest suburb of anti-tax Colorado Springs fighting tooth-and-nail for the idiotically cedar-shake-shingled homes of their well-to-do entitled yet unquestioned charges, in 100-degree heat and shifting hot high winds.

But these people in Arizona deserve our highest national honors, like the fourteen young heroes who suffocated under their fire-shelters on Storm King Mountain

Or the fifteen trained and experienced firefighters who perished running for their lives at the Rattlesnake Fire.
 
TWX
2013-07-01 02:26:34 AM  
And to think that the state legislature legalized fireworks a couple of years ago...

I know, it's unlikely fireworks started this particular fire, but launching flaming things designed to burn brightly in the open air in a tinderbox of a state is a stupid idea.
 
2013-07-01 02:29:32 AM  

BuckTurgidson: Infernalist: From my admittedly limited understanding, forest fires are both natural and important to the environment in that part of the country, and yet they're actively suppressed?

And then when fires do happen due to drought, bad things happen due to an abundance of old wood and brush that normally would have been burned off in a small fire every other year or so...

Or am I reading the situation wrong?

Arizona wildfires have never been shown to have been caused by illegal immigrants, despite the Arizona political leadership's best efforts to convince us that Mexicans, not years of hot dry weather and lightning strikes, incinerate our fair nation.

I don't like to imagine the last moments of these firefighters' lives. Last month, when my own state burned and half a thousand homes reduced to ashes I tried to think of my neighbors whose homes and stuff were capriciously incinerated while some of their neighbors were spared.

But mostly I thought about the miserable days of the volunteers in full firefighting gear hauling ass along the one-lane roads and driveways of the prestigious ultra-libertarian Black Forest suburb of anti-tax Colorado Springs fighting tooth-and-nail for the idiotically cedar-shake-shingled homes of their well-to-do entitled yet unquestioned charges, in 100-degree heat and shifting hot high winds.

But these people in Arizona deserve our highest national honors, like the fourteen young heroes who suffocated under their fire-shelters on Storm King Mountain

Or the fifteen trained and experienced firefighters who perished running for their lives at the Rattlesnake Fire.


I sent you an e-mail about an hour ago. You're absolutely right.
 
2013-07-01 02:30:32 AM  

TWX: And to think that the state legislature legalized fireworks a couple of years ago...

I know, it's unlikely fireworks started this particular fire, but launching flaming things designed to burn brightly in the open air in a tinderbox of a state is a stupid idea.


It's very unlikely that fireworks had anything to do with this fire. The article stated the fire was caused by lightning.
 
2013-07-01 02:37:51 AM  
I was a volunteer firefighter in the early 80's in southern Yosemite.   One small pumper truck and one ambulance (~'72 Olds hearse-style).  That truck carried maybe 30-60 seconds of water.  All my life's work put together wouldn't amount to the total level of energy I had to put into just training for fighting a forest fire.  Making firelines and practicing fighting fires with just a shovel was hardest physical work ever.  And I never got to deal with a real fire, only little staged ones.  I can't imagine the long-term efforts anyone on those front lines in this weather have to endure.  Fires are a fast, tricky demon, and sadly we were reminded of that today.  RIP guys.  :(
 
2013-07-01 02:38:47 AM  
 
2013-07-01 03:06:29 AM  

Bathia_Mapes: TWX: And to think that the state legislature legalized fireworks a couple of years ago...

I know, it's unlikely fireworks started this particular fire, but launching flaming things designed to burn brightly in the open air in a tinderbox of a state is a stupid idea.

It's very unlikely that fireworks had anything to do with this fire. The article stated the fire was caused by lightning.


I just hope things get doused before the 4th.
 
2013-07-01 03:09:12 AM  

violentsalvation: Bathia_Mapes: TWX: And to think that the state legislature legalized fireworks a couple of years ago...

I know, it's unlikely fireworks started this particular fire, but launching flaming things designed to burn brightly in the open air in a tinderbox of a state is a stupid idea.

It's very unlikely that fireworks had anything to do with this fire. The article stated the fire was caused by lightning.

I just hope things get doused before the 4th.


Even if they do (please, gods, let this fire be extinguished quickly with no further loss of life!), this would likely be a good year to find some way other than fireworks to celebrate the 4th.
 
2013-07-01 03:15:21 AM  
thisdaydreamer:

...  this would likely be a good year to find some way other than fireworks to celebrate the 4th.

fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net
 
2013-07-01 03:19:03 AM  

violentsalvation: Bathia_Mapes: TWX: And to think that the state legislature legalized fireworks a couple of years ago...

I know, it's unlikely fireworks started this particular fire, but launching flaming things designed to burn brightly in the open air in a tinderbox of a state is a stupid idea.

It's very unlikely that fireworks had anything to do with this fire. The article stated the fire was caused by lightning.

I just hope things get doused before the 4th.


thisdaydreamer: violentsalvation: Bathia_Mapes: TWX: And to think that the state legislature legalized fireworks a couple of years ago...

I know, it's unlikely fireworks started this particular fire, but launching flaming things designed to burn brightly in the open air in a tinderbox of a state is a stupid idea.

It's very unlikely that fireworks had anything to do with this fire. The article stated the fire was caused by lightning.

I just hope things get doused before the 4th.

Even if they do (please, gods, let this fire be extinguished quickly with no further loss of life!), this would likely be a good year to find some way other than fireworks to celebrate the 4th.


Agreed to both.
 
2013-07-01 03:34:27 AM  
crm114

Call it "crowning" we really didn't see too much of that from my position reporting on Black Forest, didn't realize how bad that got until the sheriff gave the first estimate of homes lost. People really don't realize that these things aren't grass fires, Waldo Canyon swept into Colorado Springs moving 60 mph at one point with flames 60 feet in the air.

A running crown fire cannot be stopped by man

Nothing to do but get out of the way.
 
2013-07-01 03:38:23 AM  
 
2013-07-01 03:49:15 AM  

studebaker hoch: Fifteen hundred acres, zero percent contained


Reporter Katy is kinda hot, and not just from the fire.
 
2013-07-01 03:51:04 AM  
Shoot the fire with a cannon
 
2013-07-01 03:58:59 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: IDK if this has been posted already:


Who They Were: The 'Granite Mountain Hotshots' - 19 Brave Souls Who Perished in Arizona Fire [standwitharizona.com image 550x297]


I can't stop crying and this picture doesn't help.

RIP, Granite Mountain Hotshots. If you look up "hero" in the dictionary, this picture should be right there.
 
2013-07-01 04:22:12 AM  
I don't have many "heroes" in life, but the people who run towards a dangerous situation when everyone else is running away are amazing to me. I can't imagine having the courage to put myself at risk of such a horrifying end as these folks endured. If there's any justice in this life, we'll at least learn something in either technique or technology from this that will save some other crew's lives someday.
 
2013-07-01 04:42:14 AM  
fark fark fark fark.
Breaks my heart.
And all just kids
 
2013-07-01 04:50:00 AM  
We were on divert for flash fire victims tonight. Code triage, waiting for them to come.  Then news came of the deaths.  Kind of a solemn night all around as many of the techs are either firefighters or EMTs.  Not to many happy faces in the building this evening.  Not to mention spouses of firefighters that are on the nursing staff.  A shame is a shame, no matter what form it comes in.

Best wishes to the surviving families.
 
2013-07-01 04:57:09 AM  
Condolences, respect, and heart goes to the families.
 
2013-07-01 04:58:24 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: IDK if this has been posted already:


Who They Were: The 'Granite Mountain Hotshots' - 19 Brave Souls Who Perished in Arizona Fire [standwitharizona.com image 550x297]


Last year folks from my school profiled them, be warned that knowing what we know now this is farking hard to watch:

http://cronkitenewsonline.com/2012/04/for-hotshot-fire-crews-trainin g- can-be-a-matter-of-life-and-death/
 
2013-07-01 04:58:29 AM  
The firefighters were part of a specially trained "hotshot" unit who had battled other wildfires in New Mexico and Arizona in recent weeks, officials say.

They were forced to deploy emergency tent-like structures meant to shield them from flames after becoming trapped and "something drastic" happened, said Dan Fraijo, fire chief in the nearby city of Prescott.

"One of the last fail-safe methods a firefighter can do is literally to dig as much as they can down and cover themselves with a protective fire-resistant material, with the hope that the fire will burn over the top of them and they can survive it," he said.

"Under certain conditions there's usually only sometimes a 50% chance that they survive. It's an extreme measure that's taken under the absolute worst conditions."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23123817

Holy hell - this is the worst thing I have read in a very long time. They dug their own graves and waited in hope.

Rest in Peace brave men.
 
2013-07-01 05:31:57 AM  
There should be enough planes and helicopters in every state that has wildfires so they do not have to wait days for air support. Just another example of them not really caring. I'm sure if they were building a new sports complex they could find the money.
 
2013-07-01 06:07:15 AM  
Wow...that was news that I really didn't need to wake up to,
 
2013-07-01 06:10:13 AM  

Slappy McLongstockings: There should be enough planes and helicopters in every state that has wildfires so they do not have to wait days for air support. Just another example of them not really caring. I'm sure if they were building a new sports complex they could find the money.


I don't think it's the lack of PLANES that's the problem. Do you think you could fly one of these?
 
2013-07-01 06:23:47 AM  

doglover: Slappy McLongstockings: There should be enough planes and helicopters in every state that has wildfires so they do not have to wait days for air support. Just another example of them not really caring. I'm sure if they were building a new sports complex they could find the money.

I don't think it's the lack of PLANES that's the problem. Do you think you could fly one of these?


 The Forest Service had to ground 33 air tankers in 2004, leaving 11 available.  They're 50 years old and nearing the end.

http://www.thec2group.com/news/forest_service_releases_wish_list_for _n ew_firefighting_planes/
 
2013-07-01 06:33:20 AM  
I'm not one to get really choked up about first responders, but firefighters have especially large and well-polished brass balls.
 
2013-07-01 06:39:27 AM  
Shiat. I hate Mondays.
 
2013-07-01 06:39:36 AM  
My mother in law just moved into her house in Yarnell 11 days ago from Stockton CA. Last we heard she evacuated with just a box of photos. My thoughts go out to the heros and the ones left behind.
 
2013-07-01 06:40:36 AM  
Terrible news.

Condolences to their familes, colleagues and friends.

As an Aussie I'm well aware of what large bush fires can do.
 
2013-07-01 06:40:51 AM  
The nation was crushed for a week when 6 firefighters were killed in Worcester, MA in 1999. These numbers made me numb. They became a number and not lives lost as sons, fathers, brothers.
 
2013-07-01 07:13:19 AM  
This Is So sad.

Makes me kinda glad that california uses inmates to do a lot of The dirty work.
 
2013-07-01 07:22:42 AM  

Erinvaries: Makes me kinda glad that california uses inmates to do a lot of The dirty work.


Because America doesn't have the largest number of convicts in the prison system of any country in the world and there's not rampant evidence of false or dubious convictions based on politics being commonplace.
 
2013-07-01 07:56:20 AM  
That's just godawful.
 
2013-07-01 08:05:46 AM  
No other profession (or hobby) comes as close to true heroism than firefighting. None.

These brave men and women stare the raw fury of physics in the face and strive to work their will upon it. Most times, they succeed. Some times they fail, and the consequences are often catastrophic. Unlike LEO's, they don't militarize and treat everybody as potential firebugs. They don't make sudden, erratic maneuvers in traffic, then speed at 120 to write somebody a ticket for doing 70 in a 55. Some of them parachute into the middle of a forest fire with nothing more than they can carry. These are the bravest of the brave. Not even the Hellfighters, who extinguish oil well fires using nitroglycerine rise to this level. These 19 heroes will be sorely missed.
 
2013-07-01 08:10:01 AM  

HAMMERTOE: No other profession (or hobby) comes as close to true heroism than firefighting. None.

These brave men and women stare the raw fury of physics in the face and strive to work their will upon it. Most times, they succeed. Some times they fail, and the consequences are often catastrophic. Unlike LEO's, they don't militarize and treat everybody as potential firebugs. They don't make sudden, erratic maneuvers in traffic, then speed at 120 to write somebody a ticket for doing 70 in a 55. Some of them parachute into the middle of a forest fire with nothing more than they can carry. These are the bravest of the brave. Not even the Hellfighters, who extinguish oil well fires using nitroglycerine rise to this level. These 19 heroes will be sorely missed.


Very well put.  Not to give police TOO harsh a treatment, some of them are good guys, but generally speaking the police are not people I want to have around.  I've never said "DAMNIT, he comes a firefighter.  Why can't he just leave us alone!"  I think 9/11 told us everything we needed to know about firefighters.  The world is a worse place today without those 19 heroes indeed.
 
2013-07-01 09:14:10 AM  

brantgoose: I am sorry.

My uncle used to be a head forester for a major forestry company and would spend days on site supervising forest fire fighting units. This was not an office job--the bosses are close enough to the fire that if it turns they may be surrounded. Three days with no sleep under hellish conditions is not a picnic, and the front line fighters have it worse.

My father was Fire Chief in the village because the company had the only truck equpped to pump water. Not much you can do when a tinder-dry woodframe house goes up in the middle of the night except hose down the ashes and the roofs of nearby houses, make sure it doesn't spread.

I can feel for the families and friends of men and women fighting fires, although even my family experience with fires is tame compared to what the front lines face in Arizona.

To start with, Arizona starts out hot enough to open jack pine seeds. Last year was the second most extreme year in the USA and the hottest.

So much for claims that global warming has stopped and that scientists are renouncing their belief in anthropogenic climate change. Don't you believe it. Naomi Oreske's meta-study which showed that 97% of papers support ACC has been followed up. She read about 700 papers--the new study read the conclusiions of about ten times that--it is still 97% agreement. The other 3% are dyed in the wool contrarians.

Death Valley is close to breaking or has broken a 100-year-old record of 130F. It's been over 120F in Phoenix and records are falling before July 4th.

Here's food for thought from a Fortune article announcing the deaths of these 19 peacetime heroes:

Not including the 19 deaths reported in Arizona, there have been 43 firefighter fatalities reported so far in 2013, according to the U.S. Fire Administration. A total of 83 firefighters died last year while on duty.

So we're ten deaths short of last year, a year from Hell. And that Arizona hot spot is sitting over the South West, while a cool spot squats over the Great ...


While I don't disagree with your statements about Climate Change, IMHO:

1) The time for it isn't in the middle of a thread about a loss more tragic than events like the Mann Gulch fire.  They wrote songs and made movies about it that had grown men crying - and this is a worse loss than that by almost 50%.

2) I would caution you to not make the same mistake that the contrarians make every time it snows in April in Missouri or Nebraska.  Weather does not equal Climate.  Yes, it's hot now.  Yes, it will be cold in January.  It is the totality of these hot and cold days viewed in the whole that dictates climate.

But seriously - this is horrible.  I heard it is the worse single loss for American Firefighters since 9/11.  Thoughts and prayers.  Truly a wrenching event.
 
2013-07-01 09:23:08 AM  
I was ruminating over this sad incident as I was getting ready to start my day today. The investigation will determine how much LCES/the 10&18 (safety guidelines) were broken - as they always are in these situations. But even if they were followed essentially to a tee, there's just not much to be done if a blowout occurs, such as the initial reports are saying in this case. Wildland firefighting, whether someone's on the engines or the hotshots, is dangerous as hell.

Losing an entire hotshot crew is a bad way to start what is already an explosive fire season. :( ...and there are still many months to go.

MplsMedic: I have friends on the department.  The fire suddenly backtracked on them.  They didn't have time to run, so they tried to get in their fire shelters and it overtook them.  Fark folks, this is NOT the time to be criticizing how these brave men and women did their jobs.  I went to school with many of them, and taught EMT classes.  Good people died today doing their jobs.  Praise them for their bravery, and pray for the ones left behind.


Amen.

//experienced a couple of VERY close calls in my fire days
/there's nothing more terrifying
 
2013-07-01 09:41:44 AM  
 
2013-07-01 10:09:55 AM  
Shields inconsolable.

Can I get a grin in all this sorrow?

/PHX
//Shields might still be in Sedona?
 
2013-07-01 10:53:01 AM  

HempHead: WippitGuud: HempHead:
19 dead firemen is a small price to pay to save 50 empty houses built from combustible materials out in the wilderness.

If only there was a fire proof material houses could be built from.

So, you would choose to just let the fire burn uncontrolled?

Yes. I believe Yellowstone National Park has adopted this policy. Stopping a natural fire merely creates the environment for huge fire after a few years.

Or, mandate 200 yard fire breaks around every house and stop them from being built from wood.


Would changing building materials really help that much? Every house is full of flammable shiat even if you build it out of cinderblocks, and the problem is not that houses catch on fire, it's that the wilderness catches on fire and as a very minor side effect some houses get crisped. Crisp a house built from cinderblocks and it will probably still be a write-off.
 
2013-07-01 10:58:30 AM  
a few have mentioned the Mann Gulch fire of 1949.  i saw some pictures from earlier yesterday of what must've been Hot Shot team members, patrolling dry grassy areas, and i couldn't help but remember the climax of the Mann Gulch story:  when the Smokejumper foreman lit an escape fire and laid in the middle of the area he burnt out himself, and lived.  he tried to get others to come with him, but they didn't understand.

given that history, i was surprised to read today that the Hot Shot crew's training is to dig into the ground and shelter under heat shields.  i know the escape fire wouldn't work in a forest, but having lived in AZ and traveled to areas a lot like Yarnell, i guess i find it easiest to imagine that they were overtaken in an area like they're standing in in the photo below.  not that i know with any authority, of course.

i don't bring it up to cast blame; certainly the firefighters themselves seem to have done exactly what they were trained to do.  one of the legacies of Mann Gulch, though, is lessons learned and lessons forgotten; do we train these teams to use escape fires when appropriate today?  is there something about what was done at Mann Gulch that can't be applied to other grassy, hilly areas?  (as i already mentioned, i know an escape fire wouldn't be helpful in a forest.)

images.latinospost.com
(source:   http://www.latinospost.com/articles/22561/20130630/arizona-wildfires- 2 013-updates-maps-yarnell-hill-fire-spreads-800.htm)
 
2013-07-01 11:07:31 AM  

firefly212: thelunatick: Elzar: That had to be about the worst article I have read lately - 18 firefighters dead, zero details or even mention of them past sentence one. Are these things now being crowdsourced to twitter for content creation?

Jesus Fuking Christ


In a wildfire details are always almost impossible.   They are unpredictable and highly dangerous.  It could have been something as simple as the wind shifting, or the heat causing a gust that drove the fire into their laps.  They can cover hundreds of feet in seconds.

Do wildland firefighters not carry emergency shelters there? I know the fires move fast and all, but I'd like to think that we're learning from previous disasters. =/
Did the shelters not work?

IIRC, the fire shelters got better after the Payson (sp) Arizona fire in 1990.

I wonder what happened, but either way I feel terrible for the families of all the dead.


Yes, wildland firefighters carry shelters.  Those shelters work to a certain extent but they aren't capable of protecting from everything.  For starters, you've got to have good terrain and time to deploy.  If you'ur caught in a really bad spot, a fire capable of exploding trees and spotting miles ahead of the flame front aren't going to be deterred by a foil wrap.

They're nicknamed shake-n-bakes or brown-and-serves for a reason.

As to how it happened, at 5:00 the wind was blowing from the southwest at 12 mph with gusts to 22.  At 6, the wind was blowing from the northeast at 25 mph with gusts to 40.  I don't know if the shift was predicted or not, but if it wasn't then a complete 180 with a doubling of velocity is going to fark you up.

As to the 'half mile an hour' advance speed, that's the front as a whole and is meaningless in this situation.  To trap a team, all it had to do was make a single 5 minute run behind one of those 40mph gusts and the game's up.

I've been through the training and had my red card, but never fought a significant wildfire and I've got no desire to start.   Wildland firefighters don't have big brass ones, theirs are made from titanium.

/Rest in peace brothers and sisters, we've got the watch.
 
2013-07-01 11:45:06 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: Holy crap. The Great Chicago Fire, the Peshtigo Fire and the Great Michigan Fire all happened on the same day.

1700 died in the Peshtigo, at minimum 500 in the Michigan fire and another 300 in the Chicago fire.

That was not a good day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wildfires#North_America

It was an especially awful day for William Ogden (former mayor of Chicago) who lost his home, saw the city he had built leveled by fire, and lost the lumber mill and most of the timber acreage he owned in Peshtigo.
 
2013-07-01 11:48:26 AM  
I live in Prescott.  This morning the region was coated in a thin layer of smoke.  We've lost our defenders.
 
2013-07-01 12:11:10 PM  
This is my son's second year on a fire crew in Idaho so I am definitely NOT getting a kick out of this shiat.
 
2013-07-01 12:43:03 PM  

Somebody Else: Great song by Richard Shindell about firefighters surrounded by a blaze:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgQNeGPJdcQ
"Cry Cry Cry sings of the devastation of the Mann Gulch fire of 1949 through the point of view of Dodge, one of the remaining survivors. "


Was quite surprised to see that the connection to this song was made so soon in the thread. It is one of the most powerful and moving examples of excellent songwriting out there, and really speaks to this incident.

/The Cry Cry Cry recording is haunting.
 
2013-07-01 12:57:17 PM  
Graduated from Prescott High School, my parents still live there, and I visited them a week ago (drive through Yarnell every trip).

Spoke to an ex who saw many of the Hot Shots at Lizzard's on Cortez very recently. They gave her a big hug.

Desperately trying to find names--Likely went to school with several of them.

/Incredibly sad
 
2013-07-01 01:47:37 PM  
And they were the elite firefighters.
Imagine if we'd sent amateur volunteers.

/Sorry, no property is worth this loss of life.
 
2013-07-01 01:53:35 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: And they were the elite firefighters.
Imagine if we'd sent amateur volunteers.

/Sorry, no property is worth this loss of life.


That's not why they were there. And "amateur" volunteers? You know nothing of the Volunteer Fire Service in the United States.

Do us a favor. Stop Monday Morning Quarterbacking.
 
2013-07-01 02:02:13 PM  

hardinparamedic: HotIgneous Intruder: And they were the elite firefighters.
Imagine if we'd sent amateur volunteers.

/Sorry, no property is worth this loss of life.

That's not why they were there. And "amateur" volunteers? You know nothing of the Volunteer Fire Service in the United States.

Do us a favor. Stop Monday Morning Quarterbacking.


There's no quarterbacking here.
People are idiots.

Pick your battles and don't die.
Heroes are the ones who stay alive.
Darwin always wins.
 
2013-07-01 02:05:48 PM  
HotIgneous Intruder:
/Sorry, no property is worth this loss of life.

I don't think they went in there intending to die, and I'm pretty sure you're aware of that too. So what point are you trying to make?
 
2013-07-01 02:20:38 PM  

JesseL: HotIgneous Intruder:
/Sorry, no property is worth this loss of life.

I don't think they went in there intending to die, and I'm pretty sure you're aware of that too. So what point are you trying to make?


If not to protect lives or property, why were they there?
I hope the property they died protecting was "worth" it.
Homes were already burning.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/hotshots-crew-killed-ariz-w il dfire-trained-fierce-conditions-article-1.1386993
"Most people had evacuated from the town, and no injuries or other deaths were reported."
 
2013-07-01 03:01:52 PM  
one of my oldest and best friends was one of the 19..... he was truly one of the best people anyones ever met. it makes me sick thinking how they died,but he was doing what he loved.

rest easy,zuppiger
 
2013-07-01 03:06:08 PM  

JesseL: I see the concern trolls have squatted on this thread, as always.
Let the maudlin crocodile tears flow, trolls.


And for this, fark you.

I was in Yarnell on Friday. I can smell the smoke. My town just lost their entire hotshots crew. These guys went to my high school. A couple weeks ago they were defending the threatened homes of friends of mine. I didn't know them personally, but a lot of people I know did. They were heroes in this town long before they died.
 
2013-07-01 03:08:32 PM  
Damn, quoted from my reply instead of HotIgneous Intruder.
 
2013-07-01 03:18:47 PM  
Does anybody know if the names have been released?
 
2013-07-01 03:37:12 PM  

violentsalvation: Does anybody know if the names have been released?


The family of one of the firefighters, Chris McKenzie, voluntarily released info to the media.
 
2013-07-01 03:40:26 PM  

violentsalvation: Does anybody know if the names have been released?


a lot of them can be found online, but they haven't yet been released.
 
2013-07-01 03:50:49 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: violentsalvation: Does anybody know if the names have been released?

The family of one of the firefighters, Chris McKenzie, voluntarily released info to the media.


Also Andrew Ashcroft:
sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2013-07-01 04:06:44 PM  

JesseL: ecmoRandomNumbers: violentsalvation: Does anybody know if the names have been released?

The family of one of the firefighters, Chris McKenzie, voluntarily released info to the media.

Also Andrew Ashcroft:
[sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net image 500x670]


That's heartbreaking.
 
2013-07-01 05:45:32 PM  

The Audacity Works: Graduated from Prescott High School, my parents still live there, and I visited them a week ago (drive through Yarnell every trip).

Spoke to an ex who saw many of the Hot Shots at Lizzard's on Cortez very recently. They gave her a big hug.

Desperately trying to find names--Likely went to school with several of them.

/Incredibly sad


The Prescott Hotshots are configured with one superintendent, two captains, two squad bosses, two lead crewmembers and thirteen seasonal employees.
Superintendent: Darin Fisher
Dan Matthews, Captain 1ATy Van Keuren, Squad BossBlake Shaw, Lead Crewmember7 Seasonal EmployeesAlanna English, Captain 1BJustin Baxter, Squad BossSean Henning, Lead Crewmember6 Seasonal EmployeesSend postal mail to:
USDA Forest Service
Prescott National Forest
Prescott Fire Center 
2400 Melville Road
Prescott, AZ 86301
 
2013-07-01 05:51:16 PM  
Corrected formatting:

The Prescott Hotshots are configured with one superintendent, two captains, two squad bosses, two lead crewmembers and thirteen seasonal employees.

Superintendent: Darin Fisher

Dan Matthews, Captain 1A
Van Keuren, Squad Boss
Blake Shaw, Lead Crewmember
7 Seasonal Employees


Alanna English, Captain 1B
Justin Baxter, Squad Boss
Sean Henning, Lead Crewmember
6 Seasonal Employees

Send postal mail to:
USDA Forest Service
Prescott National Forest
Prescott Fire Center
2400 Melville Road
Prescott, AZ 86301
 
2013-07-01 06:30:51 PM  
http://prescottaz.com/main.asp?FromHome=1&TypeID=1&ArticleID=120777&S e ctionID=1&SubSectionID=1
Those who lost their lives are:

• Ashcraft, Andrew - Age: 29

• Caldwell, Robert - Age: 23

• Carter, Travis - Age: 31

• Deford, Dustin - Age: 24

• MacKenzie, Christopher - Age: 30

• Marsh, Eric - Age: 43

• McKee, Grant - Age: 21

• Misner, Sean - Age: 26

• Norris, Scott - Age: 28

• Parker, Wade - Age: 22

• Percin, John - Age: 24

• Rose, Anthony - Age: 23

• Steed, Jesse - Age: 36

• Thurston, Joe - Age: 32

• Turbyfill, Travis - Age: 27

• Warneke, William - Age: 25

• Whitted, Clayton - Age: 28

• Woyjeck, Kevin - Age: 21

• Zuppiger, Garret - Age: 27
 
2013-07-01 07:43:58 PM  

JesseL: http://prescottaz.com/main.asp?FromHome=1&TypeID=1&ArticleID=120777&S e ctionID=1&SubSectionID=1
Those who lost their lives are:



Weird, none of them were on the list I got off the forestry service site.
 
2013-07-01 08:25:08 PM  

Lars The Canadian Viking: JesseL: http://prescottaz.com/main.asp?FromHome=1&TypeID=1&ArticleID=120777&S e ctionID=1&SubSectionID=1
Those who lost their lives are:


Weird, none of them were on the list I got off the forestry service site.


They weren't the Prescott Hotshots (which is a national forest crew), they were the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew, which is a municipal crew (the only municipal hotshot crew in the country I think). Both are based out of Prescott, but they are separate crews.
 
2013-07-01 08:55:17 PM  
From the In Memory of Prescott Firefighters Lost 6/30/2012 Facebook page:

"In Memory of my son Travis Turbyfill.
Ironically as Shari and I was doing some shop cleaning on Saturday,we found a kindergarten binder that was of Travis, he and the teachers had put together and this was one of the pages it contained. Even then he new what he wanted to do his whole life. I will continue to celebrate his and the others lives. I am sure most his brothers felt and lived the same.
Love
Dad "
sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2013-07-01 09:21:00 PM  
That's because you're confusing a Forest Service (federal) hotshot crew (Prescott IHC) with a city based crew (Granite Mountain IHC, city of Prescott). Capisce?
 
2013-07-01 09:44:20 PM  

JesseL: http://prescottaz.com/main.asp?FromHome=1&TypeID=1&ArticleID=120777&S e ctionID=1&SubSectionID=1
Those who lost their lives are:

• Ashcraft, Andrew - Age: 29

• Caldwell, Robert - Age: 23

• Carter, Travis - Age: 31

• Deford, Dustin - Age: 24

• MacKenzie, Christopher - Age: 30

• Marsh, Eric - Age: 43

• McKee, Grant - Age: 21

• Misner, Sean - Age: 26

• Norris, Scott - Age: 28

• Parker, Wade - Age: 22

• Percin, John - Age: 24

• Rose, Anthony - Age: 23

• Steed, Jesse - Age: 36

• Thurston, Joe - Age: 32

• Turbyfill, Travis - Age: 27

• Warneke, William - Age: 25

• Whitted, Clayton - Age: 28

• Woyjeck, Kevin - Age: 21

• Zuppiger, Garret - Age: 27


This list is way too long.

:(
 
2013-07-02 12:39:46 AM  
The investigation is going to reveal that fire ow ow ow.
 
2013-07-02 01:36:20 AM  
Just stepped outside. Our Hualapai Mountain fire (Kingman area) is flaring. No winds tonight, so that's good.
 
2013-07-02 01:56:23 AM  

JesseL: ecmoRandomNumbers: violentsalvation: Does anybody know if the names have been released?

The family of one of the firefighters, Chris McKenzie, voluntarily released info to the media.

Also Andrew Ashcroft:
[sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net image 500x670]


*sigh*

This is why I think as a "civilized society" we underpay taxes compared with other first-world countries in the sense of how well will we provide their families left behind: the lost wage-earner, support raising kids in a single-parent household, daycare, medical bills, education...
 
2013-07-02 02:34:35 AM  

JesseL: Lars The Canadian Viking: JesseL: http://prescottaz.com/main.asp?FromHome=1&TypeID=1&ArticleID=120777&S e ctionID=1&SubSectionID=1
Those who lost their lives are:


Weird, none of them were on the list I got off the forestry service site.

They weren't the Prescott Hotshots (which is a national forest crew), they were the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew, which is a municipal crew (the only municipal hotshot crew in the country I think). Both are based out of Prescott, but they are separate crews.


Correct. John Percin is from West Linn, Oregon.
 
2013-07-02 06:53:01 AM  

Nadie_AZ: JesseL: http://prescottaz.com/main.asp?FromHome=1&TypeID=1&ArticleID=120777&S e ctionID=1&SubSectionID=1
Those who lost their lives are:

• Ashcraft, Andrew - Age: 29

• Caldwell, Robert - Age: 23

• Carter, Travis - Age: 31

• Deford, Dustin - Age: 24

• MacKenzie, Christopher - Age: 30

• Marsh, Eric - Age: 43

• McKee, Grant - Age: 21

• Misner, Sean - Age: 26

• Norris, Scott - Age: 28

• Parker, Wade - Age: 22

• Percin, John - Age: 24

• Rose, Anthony - Age: 23

• Steed, Jesse - Age: 36

• Thurston, Joe - Age: 32

• Turbyfill, Travis - Age: 27

• Warneke, William - Age: 25

• Whitted, Clayton - Age: 28

• Woyjeck, Kevin - Age: 21

• Zuppiger, Garret - Age: 27

This list is way too long.

:(


It's way too young too. 21, 21, 22, 23, 24... Why were kids that age even sent to dangerous fires? What is this crazy stuff?  Even the name, Hotshot Crew, seems to have been designed to attract kids that age.  Who doesn't want to be a hotshot at that age?

I respect the dead men and their intentions.  I have so much sympathy for their families. However, it's fairly obvious that they died in agony - burned alive, to be blunt. Perhaps they shouldn't have been sent there?  Saving houses is not that important.
 
2013-07-02 11:05:50 AM  

ElizaDoolittle: It's way too young too. 21, 21, 22, 23, 24... Why were kids that age even sent to dangerous fires? What is this crazy stuff? Even the name, Hotshot Crew, seems to have been designed to attract kids that age. Who doesn't want to be a hotshot at that age?


It's the same reason front line soldiers are that age. They're some of the only ones who are physically capable of it, and maybe their own mortality just isn't too real for them yet.

ElizaDoolittle: I respect the dead men and their intentions. I have so much sympathy for their families. However, it's fairly obvious that they died in agony - burned alive, to be blunt. Perhaps they shouldn't have been sent there? Saving houses is not that important.


Getting killed in the line of duty is pretty unusual, even for hotshots. They don't go in expecting to die, and if they think conditions are too risky they'll obviously stay out.

When they started working the Yarnell Hill fire it seemed like a pretty minor thing. They had literally been working dozens of similar fires in just the past month (and they really were celebrated heroes in the community before they died). The sudden change of wind that trapped them and caused the fire to go from a few dozen acres to hundreds then thousands was something nobody foresaw. It's understood that there's always a risk, but it's unusual to lose the roll of the dice so badly.
 
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