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(SeattlePI)   Seattle Transgender community holds Trans Pride march and celebration, leaves onlookers confused and strangely aroused   (seattlepi.com) divider line 422
    More: Interesting, Trans Pride, Seattle Transgender  
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8068 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Jun 2013 at 6:26 PM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-29 12:09:51 PM
And no frogs fell from the sky, no plague of locusts, society didn't collapse....it's almost as if tolerance and acceptance are a good thing, crazy I know.
 
2013-06-29 12:29:13 PM

Voiceofreason01: And no frogs fell from the sky, no plague of locusts, society didn't collapse....it's almost as if tolerance and acceptance are a good thing, crazy I know.


In fact, it was quite a nice day.
 
2013-06-29 12:32:17 PM

FloydA: Voiceofreason01: And no frogs fell from the sky, no plague of locusts, society didn't collapse....it's almost as if tolerance and acceptance are a good thing, crazy I know.

In fact, it was quite a nice day.


isn't the weather always nice in Seattle?
 
2013-06-29 01:14:34 PM

Voiceofreason01: FloydA: Voiceofreason01: And no frogs fell from the sky, no plague of locusts, society didn't collapse....it's almost as if tolerance and acceptance are a good thing, crazy I know.

In fact, it was quite a nice day.

isn't the weather always nice in Seattle?



For certain values of "nice."
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2013-06-29 04:23:20 PM
seninf.files.wordpress.com

www.thedroop.com

24.media.tumblr.com

lh6.googleusercontent.com


A Google image search for transgender came up with these.
Hmmmm apparently not the same people at the march.
 
2013-06-29 04:41:37 PM
In before transphobes being worthless haters.
 
2013-06-29 04:58:05 PM
I like to think of myself as a worthwhile hater, so in before the same things as you
 
2013-06-29 05:36:04 PM
For some reason, I thought the headline said Seattle Transponder community...
 
2013-06-29 06:06:31 PM

Voiceofreason01: FloydA: Voiceofreason01: And no frogs fell from the sky, no plague of locusts, society didn't collapse....it's almost as if tolerance and acceptance are a good thing, crazy I know.

In fact, it was quite a nice day.

isn't the weather always nice in Seattle?


The bluest skies I've ever seen are in Seattle.

Trans Pride parade, eh?

Wow, I know Seattlites were proud of their mass transit system what with their fancy monorail and all but I never thought they'd go so far as to throw a parade for it.

*reads article*

Ohhhh. That kind of trans. Well, yeah, that makes more sense actually.

Good on 'em.

/Can't believe I made it in before the haters.
 
2013-06-29 06:22:25 PM

Paris1127: For some reason, I thought the headline said Seattle Transponder community...


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a farking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a three-piece suit on hire purchase in a range of farking fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the fark you are on Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing farking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, farked up brats you spawned to replace yourselves. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?

Oh, sorry.  I thought you said Seattle Trainspotting community
 
2013-06-29 06:30:02 PM
This thread has potential. Popcorn?

derpicdn.net
 
2013-06-29 06:31:50 PM
I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!" so I guess I'll just say...

Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?
 
2013-06-29 06:32:17 PM
As the gay marriage battle winds down, this will be the new fight for rights and tolerance.
And I don't mean that in a bad way or anything, this country and much of the world still has a burning hatred for the transgendered.

Fark especially is a good example. People have begrudgingly accepted gays, but these threads are full of shiatheads.
 
2013-06-29 06:32:17 PM

FloydA: Paris1127: For some reason, I thought the headline said Seattle Transponder community...

Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a farking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a three-piece suit on hire purchase in a range of farking fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the fark you are on Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing farking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, farked up brats you spawned to replace yourselves. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?

Oh, sorry.  I thought you said Seattle Trainspotting community


s24.postimg.org
"No reason."

/Rubber
 
2013-06-29 06:33:59 PM
I may be worthless, but I'm not a hater. Worthless lover doesn't sound any better though.:b
 
2013-06-29 06:34:07 PM

NFA: [seninf.files.wordpress.com image 850x566]

[www.thedroop.com image 266x400]

[24.media.tumblr.com image 687x1024]

[lh6.googleusercontent.com image 506x337]


A Google image search for transgender came up with these.
Hmmmm apparently not the same people at the march.


You just had to be that guy.
/Feel free to post more, my tranny folder is not complete
 
2013-06-29 06:35:45 PM

Saborlas: In before transphobes being worthless haters.


I think you can be accepting of trannies and still point out that 99% of them look terrible.
 
2013-06-29 06:36:24 PM

God-is-a-Taco: As the gay marriage battle winds down, this will be the new fight for rights and tolerance.
And I don't mean that in a bad way or anything, this country and much of the world still has a burning hatred for the transgendered.

Fark especially is a good example. People have begrudgingly accepted gays, but these threads are full of shiatheads.


I think this is the issue where the gay community can circle the wagon and say "goat marriage is acceptable, but goat polygamy? I HAVE NO SON!"
 
2013-06-29 06:37:32 PM

NFA: A Google image search for transgender came up with these.
Hmmmm apparently not the same people at the march.


Somebody went overboard on the Photoshop with those pictures; they look like mannequins. Especially the fourth one.

Not to threadjack, but good on them for being proud and marching. From my understanding, trans* people get a lot of flak (possibly more than any other non-heterosexual groups) so it's nice to see them unashamedly celebrating who they are.
 
2013-06-29 06:38:45 PM
Oh, I didn't know when groups of people play pretend that they needed to march, most of the time with a bunch of mentally ill lonely men play pretend and dress up its called a comic convention.
 
2013-06-29 06:39:08 PM
This all sounds ghastly. Wait no it doesn't, where is Ghastly? I'm certainly not trolling for pics on a Saturday night at home.
 
2013-06-29 06:39:48 PM

FloydA: Paris1127: For some reason, I thought the headline said Seattle Transponder community...

Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a farking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose a three-piece suit on hire purchase in a range of farking fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the fark you are on Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing farking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, farked up brats you spawned to replace yourselves. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?

Oh, sorry.  I thought you said Seattle Trainspotting community


Hey, we like the movie "Trainspotting", so I guess Transgender fans that like "Trainspotting" are members of both communities, lol?
 
2013-06-29 06:39:58 PM
Because you can't spell lgbtqq without a 't'.
 
2013-06-29 06:40:06 PM

atomicmask: Oh, I didn't know when groups of people play pretend that they needed to march, most of the time with a bunch of mentally ill lonely men play pretend and dress up its called a comic convention.


  Atomicmask hates his own identity, you see, and he thinks that makes him a troll. But his pathology is a thousand times more savage and more terrifying.
 
2013-06-29 06:40:38 PM
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2013-06-29 06:41:01 PM

Voiceofreason01: And no frogs fell from the sky, no plague of locusts, society didn't collapse....it's almost as if tolerance and acceptance are a good thing, crazy I know.


Still, at some point we will have to separate the legitimately transgendered from the mentally ill. One side is being helped (those who need acceptance and support in their correct transition), but those who are actually just crazy are being severely neglected.
 
2013-06-29 06:41:11 PM
I forgot the Pride thingy was today and was surprised at how congested my neighborhood was. One end of Broadway is closed for 6 blocks for Pride - and at the other end the Pike Street corridor is blocked from Broadway to 12th for the Cap Hill Block Party. My 'hood is packed with people! And it is a gorgeous 87 degrees too. Gotta love Seattle on days like this!
 
2013-06-29 06:41:33 PM

Fano: atomicmask: Oh, I didn't know when groups of people play pretend that they needed to march, most of the time with a bunch of mentally ill lonely men play pretend and dress up its called a comic convention.

  Atomicmask hates his own identity, you see, and he thinks that makes him a troll. But his pathology is a thousand times more savage and more terrifying.


What the fark are you babbling about?
 
2013-06-29 06:41:58 PM

NFA: [seninf.files.wordpress.com image 850x566]

[www.thedroop.com image 266x400]

[24.media.tumblr.com image 687x1024]

[lh6.googleusercontent.com image 506x337]


A Google image search for transgender came up with these.
Hmmmm apparently not the same people at the march.


false advertising
 
2013-06-29 06:42:05 PM

FreetardoRivera: Saborlas: In before transphobes being worthless haters.

I think you can be accepting of trannies and still point out that 99% of them look terrible.


wow, since when did you become the expert by saying that 99% of us look "Terrible"?  I take it you haven't met more than a couple of trans persons before and the one's you've seen are "ugly". Get out more, some of us DO look good ;)

/Transgender
//and enough with the term, "Trannie"/"Tranny". It's offensive. Stop it!
 
2013-06-29 06:42:50 PM

atomicmask: Oh, I didn't know when groups of people play pretend that they needed to march,


I was wondering when you'd show up. It's never a laugh riot without having to get your clever insight into topics which defies all logic, science, and common sense.

atomicmask: most of the time with a bunch of mentally ill lonely men play pretend and dress up its called a comic convention.


What mentally ill men look like:

foodandthecity.com
thevsky.com
www.generalgeneral.com

farm1.static.flickr.com

Actually. No. I can understand why you rage against things so much.
 
2013-06-29 06:43:53 PM

hardinparamedic: atomicmask: Oh, I didn't know when groups of people play pretend that they needed to march,

I was wondering when you'd show up. It's never a laugh riot without having to get your clever insight into topics which defies all logic, science, and common sense.

atomicmask: most of the time with a bunch of mentally ill lonely men play pretend and dress up its called a comic convention.

What mentally ill men look like:

[foodandthecity.com image 450x363]
[thevsky.com image 850x620]
[www.generalgeneral.com image 800x600]

[farm1.static.flickr.com image 333x500]

Actually. No. I can understand why you rage against things so much.


I can see that my comment to him was spot on, I was worried for a moment I decided to whip it out prematurely in the thread.
 
2013-06-29 06:44:18 PM

atomicmask: Oh, I didn't know when groups of people play pretend that they needed to march, most of the time with a bunch of mentally ill lonely men play pretend and dress up its called a comic convention.




"You know, you're too stupid to even be a good bigot!"

allelbows.com
 
2013-06-29 06:45:21 PM

FreetardoRivera: Saborlas: In before transphobes being worthless haters.

I think you can be accepting of trannies and still point out that 99% of them look terrible.


How dare you not recognize the beauty of this I dunno what the fark this person is going for honestly.
i.imgur.com
 
2013-06-29 06:45:31 PM

Fano: I can see that my comment to him was spot on, I was worried for a moment I decided to whip it out prematurely in the thread.


No. I honestly think he lays it on hard for a reason. I'm pretty sure it's some sick, sexual thrill of his.
 
2013-06-29 06:47:19 PM

hardinparamedic: atomicmask: Oh, I didn't know when groups of people play pretend that they needed to march,

I was wondering when you'd show up. It's never a laugh riot without having to get your clever insight into topics which defies all logic, science, and common sense.

atomicmask: most of the time with a bunch of mentally ill lonely men play pretend and dress up its called a comic convention.

What mentally ill men look like:

[foodandthecity.com image 450x363]
[thevsky.com image 850x620]
[www.generalgeneral.com image 800x600]

[farm1.static.flickr.com image 333x500]

Actually. No. I can understand why you rage against things so much.


LOOK, I CAN FIND PICTURES TOO!
2.bp.blogspot.com

cdn.uproxx.com


PS, what you posted was attention whores.
 
2013-06-29 06:49:39 PM

RKade: I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!"


Well, I'm not an authority on this (lowest difficulty setting and an admittedly incomplete understanding of the subject), but I don't think all trans* people view the surgery the same way. Some trans* people are happy to just identify as the other gender without wanting to go through the surgery at all, and they're okay with being a man that happens to have a vagina or a woman who happens to have a penis. For those that want the surgery, I think it's more to do with wanting a body that physically matches their mental gender, so they choose to go through the counselling, hormones, surgery and all that.

So I guess it's more down to the individual trans* person; some are okay with how they are, others would appreciate the correction - asking the dealer for replacement cards instead of trying to use the hand they have, to clumsily continue the poker analogy.

/I welcome additions/corrections/slaps upside the head from actual trans* people that happen to read this.
 
2013-06-29 06:49:47 PM

FloydA: Voiceofreason01: FloydA: Voiceofreason01: And no frogs fell from the sky, no plague of locusts, society didn't collapse....it's almost as if tolerance and acceptance are a good thing, crazy I know.

In fact, it was quite a nice day.

isn't the weather always nice in Seattle?

For certain values of "nice."


Well stated, but today is especially stunning. Sunny, warm, lots of folks out and about - simply a great day.
 
2013-06-29 06:50:16 PM
atomicmask: ...most of the time when a bunch of mentally ill lonely men play pretend and dress up its called a comic GOP National convention.

FTFY.
 
2013-06-29 06:50:34 PM
OMG, it's people!
 
2013-06-29 06:51:01 PM

mutterfark: I may be worthless, but I'm not a hater. Worthless lover doesn't sound any better though.:b


That made me laugh.
 
2013-06-29 06:52:10 PM

mafiageek1980: /Transgender


You must love these threads.
 
2013-06-29 06:52:39 PM

God-is-a-Taco: As the gay marriage battle winds down, this will be the new fight for rights and tolerance.
And I don't mean that in a bad way or anything, this country and much of the world still has a burning hatred for the transgendered.

Fark especially is a good example. People have begrudgingly accepted gays, but these threads are full of shiatheads.


Well homosexuality and transsexuality are two wildly different things, so makes sense why there seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the support of them.
 
2013-06-29 06:53:05 PM

Shedim: RKade: I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!"

Well, I'm not an authority on this (lowest difficulty setting and an admittedly incomplete understanding of the subject), but I don't think all trans* people view the surgery the same way. Some trans* people are happy to just identify as the other gender without wanting to go through the surgery at all, and they're okay with being a man that happens to have a vagina or a woman who happens to have a penis. For those that want the surgery, I think it's more to do with wanting a body that physically matches their mental gender, so they choose to go through the counselling, hormones, surgery and all that.

So I guess it's more down to the individual trans* person; some are okay with how they are, others would appreciate the correction - asking the dealer for replacement cards instead of trying to use the hand they have, to clumsily continue the poker analogy.

/I welcome additions/corrections/slaps upside the head from actual trans* people that happen to read this.


You did very well. I am in the catagory of "not wanting the surgery". I don't feel the NEED to have the surgery to feel like a dude even though I ID as a dude. and you are right: Each trans person is different. So yeah, you kick ass and all :) Thanks :)
 
2013-06-29 06:53:15 PM

atomicmask: PS, what you posted was attention whores.


I'm sorry. I can't hear your whining over the sound of how awesome these people are.

cdn.acidcow.com
img3.etsystatic.com
farm7.staticflickr.com

fc06.deviantart.net
4.bp.blogspot.com

Sorry. You're pretty much Abe at this point.
 
2013-06-29 06:53:43 PM
Today's Trans Am Pride event

greenwoodcarshow.com
 
2013-06-29 06:53:50 PM

mafiageek1980: FreetardoRivera: Saborlas: In before transphobes being worthless haters.

I think you can be accepting of trannies and still point out that 99% of them look terrible.

wow, since when did you become the expert by saying that 99% of us look "Terrible"?  I take it you haven't met more than a couple of trans persons before and the one's you've seen are "ugly". Get out more, some of us DO look good ;)


Saying they look terrible is actually an exercise in equal treatment.  Haven't you noticed the high physical standards the genetic women are held to around here (sharp knees and all)?

/Transgender
//and enough with the term, "Trannie"/"Tranny". It's offensive. Stop it!


T-Girl is still cool though, right?
 
2013-06-29 06:55:30 PM

Shedim: mafiageek1980: /Transgender

You must love these threads.


naw, I am more of a "Caturday" fan, but when threads like this appear, as a Trans person, I DO feel the need to leave my 2 cents and/or educate the curious. There have been people on Trans threads that have honest questions and don't just "bash", so, I am here to help, and if I have something to say, I will.
 
2013-06-29 06:56:40 PM

Foxxinnia: God-is-a-Taco: As the gay marriage battle winds down, this will be the new fight for rights and tolerance.
And I don't mean that in a bad way or anything, this country and much of the world still has a burning hatred for the transgendered.

Fark especially is a good example. People have begrudgingly accepted gays, but these threads are full of shiatheads.

Well homosexuality and transsexuality are two wildly different things, so makes sense why there seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the support of them.


You gotta remember that 47% of people's brains slam shut over any word with that ""sexuality" thing in it. No cognition, just shut the fark down.
 
2013-06-29 06:56:57 PM

SBinRR: mafiageek1980: FreetardoRivera: Saborlas: In before transphobes being worthless haters.

I think you can be accepting of trannies and still point out that 99% of them look terrible.

wow, since when did you become the expert by saying that 99% of us look "Terrible"?  I take it you haven't met more than a couple of trans persons before and the one's you've seen are "ugly". Get out more, some of us DO look good ;)

Saying they look terrible is actually an exercise in equal treatment.  Haven't you noticed the high physical standards the genetic women are held to around here (sharp knees and all)?

/Transgender
//and enough with the term, "Trannie"/"Tranny". It's offensive. Stop it!

T-Girl is still cool though, right?


sure :) I'm down for it. T-girl or T-guy, whichever is the case.
 
2013-06-29 06:56:59 PM

LordOfThePings: Today's Trans Am Pride event


Let's hope Joe Biden shows up to the right one for his gift.
 
2013-06-29 06:57:53 PM
Some people just try a little too hard to be a pretty freak.

img20.imageshack.us
 
2013-06-29 06:58:20 PM
CSB. One of the bridesmaids at the wedding I recently attended was pre-op. Ex-Marine and quite a character. She caught the bouquet; I caught the garter.

I'll post my honeymoon pictures if that pans out.
 
2013-06-29 06:58:44 PM
I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event?  Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

/Not being snarky, btw.  Be, do, find happiness with whomever & whatever you like; as long as it's legal & consenting, none of it bothers me.
 
2013-06-29 07:00:17 PM

mafiageek1980: You did very well. I am in the category of "not wanting the surgery". I don't feel the NEED to have the surgery to feel like a dude even though I ID as a dude. and you are right: Each trans person is different. So yeah, you kick ass and all :) Thanks :)


Thank you and you're welcome. I'm not a total stranger to trans* issues, though my wife is more focused on the LGBTQI rights than I am so I get a good chunk of information from sources she's found and friends she's made.

She's also been about my only source - it seems the only decent information about trans* people comes from trans* people themselves. Which is handy in terms of getting good quality, firsthand information, but there isn't exactly a wealth of it in mainstream media (TV, film, literature, video games etc.). If I may go a little off-topic, what do you think could be done about getting more information out there in helpful ways?

/am I even making sense
//amateur writer
 
2013-06-29 07:06:55 PM
i512.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-29 07:10:36 PM
Yay for assimilationism! Let's hear it for privilege for ALL middle-class white people!


Shedim
(possibly more than any other non-heterosexual groups)

Pretty sure that's technically incorrect, as gender != sexuality.

Oh yeah, this is that kind of thread.


A Terrible Human
I dunno what the fark this person is going for honestly.

That's probably the point.


Shedim
So I guess it's more down to the individual trans* person; some are okay with how they are, others would appreciate the correction

That and the thousands of dollars and many hours and stress, which is a matter of economic class. Privileged and trans? Great, have surgery. Poor and trans? fark you!
 
2013-06-29 07:11:21 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-06-29 07:14:09 PM
The event intended to increase the power of the transgender community and its allies

Now witness the power of this fully armed and operational transgender parade!
 
2013-06-29 07:14:29 PM
i1.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-06-29 07:16:44 PM
I was expecting something more like this:

i.imgur.com
 
2013-06-29 07:18:30 PM

NFA: [seninf.files.wordpress.com image 850x566]

[www.thedroop.com image 266x400]

[24.media.tumblr.com image 687x1024]

[lh6.googleusercontent.com image 506x337]


A Google image search for transgender came up with these.
Hmmmm apparently not the same people at the march.


I searched 'transgender' and the results came back with rainbow colors outside the box (standard web search).  Interesting....
 
2013-06-29 07:18:31 PM
www.libertymeadows.com
 
2013-06-29 07:22:39 PM

Voiceofreason01: And no frogs fell from the sky, no plague of locusts, society didn't collapse....it's almost as if tolerance and acceptance are a good thing, crazy I know.


The only thing I don't tolerate is the incessant splitting of the group. What ever happened to "Pervert"?
 
2013-06-29 07:30:49 PM
I respect everyone's right to do or be whatever they want. Have NO problem with it... But look at me!!! I need attention!!
 
2013-06-29 07:32:54 PM

NFA: A Google image search for transgender came up with these.
Hmmmm apparently not the same people at the march.


i haev the weirdest boner right now.jpg
 
2013-06-29 07:35:23 PM

FreetardoRivera: Saborlas: In before transphobes being worthless haters.

I think you can be accepting of trannies and still point out that 99% of them look terrible.


It's tricky for those who went through puberty as a male to gain feminine form due to testosterone's effects on bone growth. Surgeons may have to shave down facial bones, Adams apple, etc and it's basically impossible to alter shoulders and hands. These days, those that were identified before puberty hit and got to take hormones are lucky. They don't have to deal with 50 years as a man and trying to change things.

People accept a slight somewhat delicate man much easier than a solidly built masculine woman. Even non-trans women get grief for not looking "feminine" enough.
 
2013-06-29 07:38:31 PM

Shedim: RKade: I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!"

Well, I'm not an authority on this (lowest difficulty setting and an admittedly incomplete understanding of the subject), but I don't think all trans* people view the surgery the same way. Some trans* people are happy to just identify as the other gender without wanting to go through the surgery at all, and they're okay with being a man that happens to have a vagina or a woman who happens to have a penis. For those that want the surgery, I think it's more to do with wanting a body that physically matches their mental gender, so they choose to go through the counselling, hormones, surgery and all that.

So I guess it's more down to the individual trans* person; some are okay with how they are, others would appreciate the correction - asking the dealer for replacement cards instead of trying to use the hand they have, to clumsily continue the poker analogy.

/I welcome additions/corrections/slaps upside the head from actual trans* people that happen to read this.


Honest question: what's with the asterisk after trans?
 
2013-06-29 07:42:08 PM
Trap thread?
 
2013-06-29 07:42:21 PM

hardinparamedic: atomicmask: PS, what you posted was attention whores.

I'm sorry. I can't hear your whining over the sound of how awesome these people are.

[cdn.acidcow.com image 468x681]
[img3.etsystatic.com image 414x444]
[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x427]

[fc06.deviantart.net image 850x1269]
[4.bp.blogspot.com image 333x500]

Sorry. You're pretty much Abe at this point.


These kinds of pictures always strike me as sad whether it's a woman by birth or otherwise (please correct my phrasing if that's off, I'm not intending to be unpleasant). No matter what path you take to womanhood, it seems cruel to boil it down to appearances alone. Are they less womanly if you don't ogle them?
 
2013-06-29 07:42:24 PM

ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event?  Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

/Not being snarky, btw.  Be, do, find happiness with whomever & whatever you like; as long as it's legal & consenting, none of it bothers me.


Something like Trans/Gay pride I could understand. As someone who had to sit through an AA meeting for school (class assignment for a psych class), I can't think of anyplace more boring to go for a hookup. Never mind that they pretty much all have preexisting baggage (it's one thing if you hit it off with someone who has major baggage, but why preselect for it?).
 
2013-06-29 07:43:25 PM

Qellaqan: Honest question: what's with the asterisk after trans?


It's meant to cover all forms of "transitioning" people (transvestite, transgender/transexual, genderfluid etc.). Sort of a trans<fill in the gap here> sign. I've seen quite a few other trans* people use it, because just using "trans" doesn't necessarily cover everyone.

You could still get away without the asterisk (I think); it's just something I was told.
 
2013-06-29 07:44:16 PM
Shedim:
Somebody went overboard on the Photoshop with those pictures; they look like mannequins. Especially the fourth one.

FreetardoRivera:

I think you can be accepting of trannies and still point out that 99% of them look terrible.

This is because once upon a time most of them did look terrible, especially as they aged. Male puberty is a difficult thing to undo, chemically/hormonally speaking. In terms of physical appearance it is much easier to transition from female to male than male to female. However with more kids identifying as transgender earlier in life the "new crop" of adult male transsexuals have never gone through male puberty and as a consequence they look much more feminine as adults. No Photoshopping necessary.
 
2013-06-29 07:44:48 PM
Photobucket doesn't want to cooperate with my phone tonight, so I'm just going to say it: I'd totally hit the one in red, and the girl in green to her right is welcome to join in too.
 
2013-06-29 07:46:18 PM

mafiageek1980: Shedim: mafiageek1980: /Transgender

You must love these threads.

naw, I am more of a "Caturday" fan, but when threads like this appear, as a Trans person, I DO feel the need to leave my 2 cents and/or educate the curious. There have been people on Trans threads that have honest questions and don't just "bash", so, I am here to help, and if I have something to say, I will.


Yes, keep doing it. I don't know any transpeople in real life (to my knowledge), and reading these threads has been really enlightening. The alien is often naturally uncomfortable, so you help it less alien to to the rest of us. I know my own thinking has evolved substantially just through fark.
 
2013-06-29 07:46:55 PM
Meanwhile, back in reality, there is zero scientific evidence that sex reassignment surgery improves anyone's life or mental well-being.

But hey, how's that 41% suicide attempt rate working out for ya, trannies?
 
2013-06-29 07:48:43 PM

Utter Genius: Meanwhile, back in reality, there is zero scientific evidence that sex reassignment surgery improves anyone's life or mental well-being.


imgs.xkcd.com
 
2013-06-29 07:49:06 PM

atomicmask: hardinparamedic: atomicmask: Oh, I didn't know when groups of people play pretend that they needed to march,

I was wondering when you'd show up. It's never a laugh riot without having to get your clever insight into topics which defies all logic, science, and common sense.

atomicmask: most of the time with a bunch of mentally ill lonely men play pretend and dress up its called a comic convention.

What mentally ill men look like:

[foodandthecity.com image 450x363]
[thevsky.com image 850x620]
[www.generalgeneral.com image 800x600]

[farm1.static.flickr.com image 333x500]

Actually. No. I can understand why you rage against things so much.

LOOK, I CAN FIND PICTURES TOO!
[2.bp.blogspot.com image 618x420]

[cdn.uproxx.com image 640x427]


PS, what you posted was attention whores.


And yet here you are slagging on people who do you no harm. Whining for it's own sake is attention whoring at it's finest.
 
2013-06-29 07:50:25 PM
where's the obesity pride parade??

newsphilter.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-06-29 07:50:47 PM
atomicmask:

Posting people's profile pics in thread makes you look really, really creepy and stalkerish.  If I was a mod, you'd have earned a time out for that.
 
2013-06-29 07:52:06 PM
Wait, I thought it was a hate crime now not to put the asterisk after trans*.

/Nothing against trans folk, just been forced to deal with a bunch of the ones that make the entire movement look bad and jaded because of it.
 
2013-06-29 07:52:25 PM
We are living in an exciting time where academic and societal ideas of sex, gender, and orientation are getting broken further apart and redefined leading to better chances of personal discovery and finding tools to be happy. Some people don't like exciting times of personal discovery and happiness. Those people are threadshiatters.That is my new theory about these Fark threads.
 
2013-06-29 07:53:16 PM

big-southern: Ah yes, lets take our children and completely warp their minds by deceiving them into believing that this deviant behavior is normal. Good going liberal farking trash.


Brand new account, deliberately stereotypical name, straight from "never posted before" to "complete asshole" in a single post.

Seems legit.  Buh-bye.
 
2013-06-29 07:53:54 PM
It's quite exciting to see people around here not only supporting the lgbt community but also responding to the trolls and those who are uneducated about the subject or simply unable to understand. Kudos :)
 
2013-06-29 07:54:24 PM

Jon iz teh kewl: where's the obesity pride parade??

[newsphilter.files.wordpress.com image 410x308]



They are in all around the Paula  Deen restaurants, solidarity and  butter forever
 
2013-06-29 07:54:36 PM

JPINFV: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event?  Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

/Not being snarky, btw.  Be, do, find happiness with whomever & whatever you like; as long as it's legal & consenting, none of it bothers me.

Something like Trans/Gay pride I could understand. As someone who had to sit through an AA meeting for school (class assignment for a psych class), I can't think of anyplace more boring to go for a hookup. Never mind that they pretty much all have preexisting baggage (it's one thing if you hit it off with someone who has major baggage, but why preselect for it?).


Agreed.  And the AA analogy wasn't a good one.  But people's oddities never cease to amaze me, and I did wonder if in an atmosphere where "appearances" [for want of a better word] are fluid, would/could someone pretend?

Bad luck on having to attend a meeting - sounds ghastly - must confess my only perception comes from the t.v./movie cliche:)
 
2013-06-29 07:54:39 PM

Bane of Broone: Whining for it's own sake is attention whoring at it's finest.


it's means it is
it's means it is
 
2013-06-29 07:55:10 PM

bwilson27: I respect everyone's right to do or be whatever they want. Have NO problem with it... But look at me!!! I need attention!!


I'm mixed on this one. On one hand, I've always had a problem with people being "proud" of something they had no choice in. Skin color, gender, ethnic background, religion (for the vast majority of people), country of citizenship (unless you've seriously visited another 1st world country, and no Mexico doesn't count for the Americans, then you really haven't made a choice), sexuality, gender, and many other things falls into this category. If straight/gay, cisgender/transgender is considered a birth trait and not a choice, why is it anything to be proud of? Now, I'm not saying that someone should be ashamed, just that it is an "it is what it is" characteristic.

On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get, being open with their sexual/gender identity is something to be proud about. That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive. Public displays of affection (besides standard things like a peck) are disgusting regardless of whether it's a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place.
 
2013-06-29 07:55:35 PM

Quantum Apostrophe: Bane of Broone: Whining for it's own sake is attention whoring at it's finest.

it's means it is
it's means it is


Oh noes! There goes my validity!
 
2013-06-29 07:55:58 PM

FloydA: big-southern: Ah yes, lets take our children and completely warp their minds by deceiving them into believing that this deviant behavior is normal. Good going liberal farking trash.

Brand new account, deliberately stereotypical name, straight from "never posted before" to "complete asshole" in a single post.

Seems legit.  Buh-bye.


Who has all this time on their hands?
 
2013-06-29 07:57:00 PM

Shedim: mafiageek1980: You did very well. I am in the category of "not wanting the surgery". I don't feel the NEED to have the surgery to feel like a dude even though I ID as a dude. and you are right: Each trans person is different. So yeah, you kick ass and all :) Thanks :)

Thank you and you're welcome. I'm not a total stranger to trans* issues, though my wife is more focused on the LGBTQI rights than I am so I get a good chunk of information from sources she's found and friends she's made.

She's also been about my only source - it seems the only decent information about trans* people comes from trans* people themselves. Which is handy in terms of getting good quality, firsthand information, but there isn't exactly a wealth of it in mainstream media (TV, film, literature, video games etc.). If I may go a little off-topic, what do you think could be done about getting more information out there in helpful ways?

/am I even making sense
//amateur writer


well, the pride marches help, but as far as getting info out, I would suggest maybe Transfolk that are in college set up info booths (something like "ask a transperson), become more visible (in an positive and accurate way) in TV shows, perhaps maybe booths at local events (depending on the event, something like a health fair perhaps), etc.
 
2013-06-29 07:57:56 PM
haha...scent free zone
 
2013-06-29 07:58:44 PM

NFA: A Google image search for transgender came up with these.
Hmmmm apparently not the same people at the march.


I love you. Thank you.
 
2013-06-29 07:59:14 PM

A Terrible Human: FreetardoRivera: Saborlas: In before transphobes being worthless haters.

I think you can be accepting of trannies and still point out that 99% of them look terrible.

How dare you not recognize the beauty of this I dunno what the fark this person is going for honestly.
[i.imgur.com image 400x367]


It's German for 'The cis scum'. No one who speaks German could be a bad person.
 
2013-06-29 08:00:45 PM

ACunningPlan: Bad luck on having to attend a meeting - sounds ghastly - must confess my only perception comes from the t.v./movie cliche:)


Meh, I've had to do worse things for medical school. I can see how it's useful for alcoholics. Not being an alcoholic nor being present in order to support any specific individual makes it more of an hour of my life I'd like to get back.
 
2013-06-29 08:00:48 PM
JPINFV:

On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get, being open with their sexual/gender identity is something to be proud about. That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive.

How inconvenienced were you by the Pride parades and celebrations in your city this weekend?  A lot?  Remember that there are 51 other weekends every year, so don't worry, it won't happen too frequently.

Public displays of affection (besides standard things like a peck) are disgusting regardless of whether it's a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place.


I guess we have different opinions about what is disgusting.  I consider genuine displays of affection to be pretty beautiful, even if I don't find the participants personally attractive.
 
2013-06-29 08:00:52 PM

Spaced Lion: Wait, I thought it was a hate crime now not to put the asterisk after trans*.

/Nothing against trans folk, just been forced to deal with a bunch of the ones that make the entire movement look bad and jaded because of it.


meh, it depends on the person. Frankly, I don't give a rat-ass about the asterisk whereas some transpeople do.
 
2013-06-29 08:02:26 PM

FreetardoRivera: Saborlas: In before transphobes being worthless haters.

I think you can be accepting of trannies and still point out that 99% of them look terrible.


O come on,,, It's somewhere around 80%. Don't be that "sharp knees" guy. But seriously,, Don't people realize that if you put make up, a garter belt, and a set of tits on an attractive dude,,, you wind up with an attractive dudett? It's not rocket science.
 
2013-06-29 08:03:36 PM
Is it me, or is the quality of Fark trolling shiat-poor lately?
 
2013-06-29 08:03:45 PM

atomicmask: hardinparamedic: atomicmask: PS, what you posted was attention whores.

I'm sorry. I can't hear your whining over the sound of how awesome these people are.

[cdn.acidcow.com image 468x681]
[img3.etsystatic.com image 414x444]
[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x427]

[fc06.deviantart.net image 850x1269]
[4.bp.blogspot.com image 333x500]

Sorry. You're pretty much Abe at this point.

Hey look, I found another picture of a huge delusional dork!


Also you trail me around like the tail I never wanted, god damn you have the biggest mancrush on me I have ever seen.


Hmmmm.....might yum. Depends on beer/movie selections. And as long as he's okay with me beer-drinking while WOWing.
 
2013-06-29 08:07:16 PM

A Terrible Human: FreetardoRivera: Saborlas: In before transphobes being worthless haters.

I think you can be accepting of trannies and still point out that 99% of them look terrible.

How dare you not recognize the beauty of this I dunno what the fark this person is going for honestly.
[i.imgur.com image 400x367]


Never put your dick in crazy tranny.
 
2013-06-29 08:07:58 PM

Qellaqan: mafiageek1980: Shedim: mafiageek1980: /Transgender

You must love these threads.

naw, I am more of a "Caturday" fan, but when threads like this appear, as a Trans person, I DO feel the need to leave my 2 cents and/or educate the curious. There have been people on Trans threads that have honest questions and don't just "bash", so, I am here to help, and if I have something to say, I will.

Yes, keep doing it. I don't know any transpeople in real life (to my knowledge), and reading these threads has been really enlightening. The alien is often naturally uncomfortable, so you help it less alien to to the rest of us. I know my own thinking has evolved substantially just through fark.


Yes. One of my best friends recently got extremely drunk and confided in me that he thinks he might be trans. I don't know a lot about it, but I really appreciate people taking the time to explain it to non-trans people. I support him no matter what, but it's easier to know how to support him if I know what he's dealing with.
 
2013-06-29 08:08:02 PM
snocone:
You gotta remember that 47% of people's brains slam shut over any word with that ""sexuality" thing in it. No cognition, just shut the fark down.

Not sure why you went with the insult, but I'll clarify:
They're two groups that are widely misunderstood and reviled due to the influence of religion in society. One group has recently made great strides in finding acceptance, although it is certainly not universal.  However, rather than disappearing, the animosity is aimed in a new direction.
Unfortunately, history repeats itself and similar to how they were blacks against gays, there are gays against trans.
 
2013-06-29 08:09:09 PM

JPINFV: bwilson27: I respect everyone's right to do or be whatever they want. Have NO problem with it... But look at me!!! I need attention!!

I'm mixed on this one. On one hand, I've always had a problem with people being "proud" of something they had no choice in. Skin color, gender, ethnic background, religion (for the vast majority of people), country of citizenship (unless you've seriously visited another 1st world country, and no Mexico doesn't count for the Americans, then you really haven't made a choice), sexuality, gender, and many other things falls into this category. If straight/gay, cisgender/transgender is considered a birth trait and not a choice, why is it anything to be proud of? Now, I'm not saying that someone should be ashamed, just that it is an "it is what it is" characteristic.

On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get, being open with their sexual/gender identity is something to be proud about. That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive. Public displays of affection (besides standard things like a peck) are disgusting regardless of whether it's a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place.


I don't see how PDA is nasty, but to each their own.

as far as being "out", we wouldn't have the NEED to be "out" if being Trans didn't lead to being bullied (or worse), and not accepted for who we are. So yeah, until we are seen as equals (aka: no one would think twice about seeing a Trans person in public/PDA, etc) then yeah, we have to "parade" and inform the public about us to promote understand and pride. There's a trans closet, and I am glad I am out of it. Why be ashamed?
 
2013-06-29 08:09:27 PM

jso2897: Is it me, or is the quality of Fark trolling shiat-poor lately?


No, it's not just you. They're probably getting ignored more so they get more desperate for attention.

That or they don't feel like trying right now.
 
2013-06-29 08:09:44 PM

FloydA: JPINFV:

On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get, being open with their sexual/gender identity is something to be proud about. That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive.

How inconvenienced were you by the Pride parades and celebrations in your city this weekend?  A lot?  Remember that there are 51 other weekends every year, so don't worry, it won't happen too frequently.

Public displays of affection (besides standard things like a peck) are disgusting regardless of whether it's a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place.


I guess we have different opinions about what is disgusting.  I consider genuine displays of affection to be pretty beautiful, even if I don't find the participants personally attractive.


Considering my goals this weekend is pretty much "stay the fark out of the heat," not that much. It doesn't change the fact that if I have to drive a mile or so out of my way because a parade of people saying "look at us, we're here!" than I'm going to be a little bit peeved. There's more than a slight difference between that and, say, a political protest (regardless of what they're arguing for and whether I support that argument) and a "look at us, we exist" parade.

As far as different opinions, awesome. Living in a world where everyone thinks exactly the same is rather boring. It doesn't change the fact that if I have a choice of watching people sucking face or not, I'd really rather not.
 
2013-06-29 08:10:14 PM
I'm glad to see folks exercising their relatively high-extreme normative class and race privileges to rally for trans issues. However, as a transethnic autistic pangender asexual demiromantic otherkin(cat), I'm afraid there's just not a lot of support out there for me and my kind, so I think a little recognition of my daily struggles with psychonormative, heteronormative, homonormative, transnormative, ethnonormative, ableist, racist, classist, sizest, speciest attitudes that can make my life a living hell is well deserved.
 
2013-06-29 08:14:10 PM

mafiageek1980: Why be ashamed?


So you missed the entire part about the difference between "not proud because I didn't make a choice" and " not proud = ashamed." I'm not "proud" to be white, male, Catholic (never explored other religions), or American (never explored other countries). I'm not ashamed of those things either. I just am those things.

Are you suggesting that sexual orientation and gender identity are choices and not birth traits?
 
2013-06-29 08:14:14 PM

A Terrible Human: FreetardoRivera: Saborlas: In before transphobes being worthless haters.

I think you can be accepting of trannies and still point out that 99% of them look terrible.

How dare you not recognize the beauty of this I dunno what the fark this person is going for honestly.
[i.imgur.com image 400x367]


Whatever that is, it probably was just as ugly before it became a transsomething. Is it MTF? FTM? Who knows? Someone will have to take one for the team and find out.
 
2013-06-29 08:14:40 PM

RKade: I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!" so I guess I'll just say...

Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?


Why should they accept the hand they were dealt when there's a perfectly viable solution? Why shouldn't any of us take advantage of modern medicine and technology to improve our lives when possible? Isn't that what it's there for? Bottom line it's their life, their body, their choice.

Also, it seems hypocritical to ask trans people to justify their choices but not the millions of others who elect to have cosmetic surgery. All those women out there getting boob jobs and vaginal beautification procedures? Just deal with it. All those guys who went for penile implants, etc? Deal with it. Hair restoration? Nope. You're going bald. Deal with it. Hair turning gray? Deal with it. Six fingers on your right hand? Deal with it.

Seriously, who gives a fark what someone else decides to do with their body. Unless you're sleeping with them it's really no one else's business.
 
2013-06-29 08:15:49 PM

JPINFV: FloydA: JPINFV:

On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get, being open with their sexual/gender identity is something to be proud about. That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive.

How inconvenienced were you by the Pride parades and celebrations in your city this weekend?  A lot?  Remember that there are 51 other weekends every year, so don't worry, it won't happen too frequently.

Public displays of affection (besides standard things like a peck) are disgusting regardless of whether it's a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place.


I guess we have different opinions about what is disgusting.  I consider genuine displays of affection to be pretty beautiful, even if I don't find the participants personally attractive.

Considering my goals this weekend is pretty much "stay the fark out of the heat," not that much. It doesn't change the fact that if I have to drive a mile or so out of my way because a parade of people saying "look at us, we're here!" than I'm going to be a little bit peeved. There's more than a slight difference between that and, say, a political protest (regardless of what they're arguing for and whether I support that argument) and a "look at us, we exist" parade.

As far as different opinions, awesome. Living in a world where everyone thinks exactly the same is rather boring. It doesn't change the fact that if I have a choice of watching people sucking face or not, I'd really rather not.


well, in that case, you might want to stay completely indoors if you don't want to see PDA, lol. And as far as the parade making your commute a LITTLE BIT LONGER, I suggest you never go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans, or any other type of "Event"/"March" in your own town. Just curious, would you complain if it were say a 4th of july parade that was making your trip home longer? Oh and what if you saw a couple engaging in some patriotic PDA? Oh my goodness, how nasty!
 
2013-06-29 08:17:25 PM

Foxxinnia: God-is-a-Taco: As the gay marriage battle winds down, this will be the new fight for rights and tolerance.
And I don't mean that in a bad way or anything, this country and much of the world still has a burning hatred for the transgendered.

Fark especially is a good example. People have begrudgingly accepted gays, but these threads are full of shiatheads.

Well homosexuality and transsexuality are two wildly different things, so makes sense why there seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the support of them.


I don't think they are really as "wildly different" as you think.  But even if they were, there would still be a very pragmatic reason why lesbians, gays, bisexuals, and transgender folks (and others as well) have common cause: a common enemy.  By and large the same people who hate gays and lesbians also hate the transgender, and vice-versa.  Of course there are exceptions, but the overlap between the homophobes and the transphobes is quite large.

"The enemy of my enemy" is a very good reason for two groups to try to work together.
 
2013-06-29 08:19:32 PM

snocone: Foxxinnia: God-is-a-Taco: As the gay marriage battle winds down, this will be the new fight for rights and tolerance.
And I don't mean that in a bad way or anything, this country and much of the world still has a burning hatred for the transgendered.

Fark especially is a good example. People have begrudgingly accepted gays, but these threads are full of shiatheads.

Well homosexuality and transsexuality are two wildly different things, so makes sense why there seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the support of them.

You gotta remember that 47% of people's brains slam shut over any word with that ""sexuality" thing in it. No cognition, just shut the fark down.


That's only true if it's legitimate sexuality.
 
2013-06-29 08:19:50 PM

JPINFV: I'm not "proud" to be white, male, Catholic (never explored other religions), or American (never explored other countries). I'm not ashamed of those things either.


I think the point of "pride marches" and the like is more to counter the shame that society at large attempts to force on those who identify as such. That's why you don't see any "hetero pride" marches and the like, because there aren't massive chunks of society dedicated to telling you that heterosexuality is unnatural and shameful and that you feel this way because there's something wrong with you.

So I think it's less about how they feel and more about countering how society wants them to feel.
 
2013-06-29 08:21:08 PM
JPINFV:

Considering my goals this weekend is pretty much "stay the fark out of the heat," not that much. It doesn't change the fact that if I have to drive a mile or so out of my way because a parade of people saying "look at us, we're here!" than I'm going to be a little bit peeved. There's more than a slight difference between that and, say, a political protest (regardless of what they're arguing for and whether I support that argument) and a "look at us, we exist" parade.


Fair enough, as long as you hold the Fourth of July, Memorial Day, St. Patrick's Day, etc. parades to the same standard.  Since you (wisely) stayed home out of the heat, I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that they were really "shoving it in your face" though (unless the parade route actually passes through your house, that would be excessive, and you'd have every right to complain!  I would too).

As far as different opinions, awesome. Living in a world where everyone thinks exactly the same is rather boring. It doesn't change the fact that if I have a choice of watching people sucking face or not, I'd really rather not.

Fair enough, as long as your solution is to just not look, and turn your head as you walk past, that's fine.  I'm sure we agree that nobody else is obligated to behave according to anyone's personal preferences but their own.  I can't stand Brussels sprouts, personally, but I wouldn't try to prevent other people from eating them, even if I had the power.
 
2013-06-29 08:22:28 PM
Gross.  Leave your weird ass fetishes in the bedroom where they belong.  Don't push this crap on normal people.
 
2013-06-29 08:23:33 PM

mafiageek1980: well, in that case, you might want to stay completely indoors if you don't want to see PDA, lol. And as far as the parade making your commute a LITTLE BIT LONGER, I suggest you never go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans, or any other type of "Event"/"March" in your own town. Just curious, would you complain if it were say a 4th of july parade that was making your trip home longer? Oh and what if you saw a couple engaging in some patriotic PDA? Oh my goodness, how nasty!



I'm sorry, I thought I was having an adult discussion here (I know.. it's Fark...), but the rather copious amounts of sarcasm in your post pretty much indicates that you have no inclination to having an adult conversation.
 
2013-06-29 08:23:42 PM

JPINFV: mafiageek1980: Why be ashamed?

So you missed the entire part about the difference between "not proud because I didn't make a choice" and " not proud = ashamed." I'm not "proud" to be white, male, Catholic (never explored other religions), or American (never explored other countries). I'm not ashamed of those things either. I just am those things.

Are you suggesting that sexual orientation and gender identity are choices and not birth traits?


Nope.They can be both, depending on who you ask. But do YOU get picked on because you are white/male/catholic? Do YOU get bullied because of who you are? Do YOU get strange looks when you walk down the street? Can YOU go into a bathroom without their being screams and biatching about you being in the "wrong" bathroom?
 
2013-06-29 08:24:25 PM
Isn't self confidence enough?

Why do we all need to be prideful as if we're better or special unique snowflakes?

pride  
/prīd/
Noun
A feeling of pleasure from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is associated, or from qualities or possessio...
Verb
Be especially proud of a particular quality or skill.
Synonyms
noun.      arrogance - haughtiness - vanity - conceit
verb.      glory - boast


Why do we, as a society value pride so much?  I think it's an un-needed route to self confidence that often causes even more strife.

Just as an example:
I'm not proud of my skin color or sex/sexual preference, I just am.  The sun is not proud it rises every day, it just does.  I am thankful that I don't have to go through what some others have, but not prideful. I am prideful of some of my skills(like the ability to masturbate furiously for SECONDS on end), but not of those things which were granted me.  I'm humbly prideful for having gone through some of what I have, but it's not a point of boasting. I don't call attention to myself for it(unless it's within a specific topical discussion IE "I have been through X, so I do know what it's like, I think you can do it")

I think that is part of the problem.  Simply calling it a "Pride" parade is self defeating if you're wishing to convince others you are equals, as it inherently comes off as arrogance.  Bigots will see it as a challenge, an insult, not as a demonstration of fact.  You shouldn't "challenge" them to accept you, you should "convince" them.

Granting confidence to those in the closet is more akin to a side-effect, than a goal achieved efficiently.

/but what do I know
//flame on accusing me of being gay or secretly lusting after them or whatever
///because more insults via intent and animosity are the very definition of "helping"....apparently
 
2013-06-29 08:25:55 PM

JPINFV: ACunningPlan: Bad luck on having to attend a meeting - sounds ghastly - must confess my only perception comes from the t.v./movie cliche:)

Meh, I've had to do worse things for medical school. I can see how it's useful for alcoholics. Not being an alcoholic nor being present in order to support any specific individual makes it more of an hour of my life I'd like to get back.


That doesn't surprise me at all!
 
2013-06-29 08:27:13 PM

ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event?  Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.


It may be worth pointing out the difference between transgender and transsexual.  A transsexual is the classic "woman trapped in a man's body" or vice-versa.  "Transgender" is an umbrella term which includes transsexual but also includes a number of other folk who aren't actually transsexual but who otherwise differ from what society sees as "normal" in terms of sexual identity.  To give one example, there are many people who regularly cross-dress but who are not transsexual.

So keep in mind that there are many people who are NOT transsexual but who ARE transgender.  If you meet such a person, please don't just assume that they are "pretending" or "faking it."
 
2013-06-29 08:28:34 PM

JPINFV: mafiageek1980: well, in that case, you might want to stay completely indoors if you don't want to see PDA, lol. And as far as the parade making your commute a LITTLE BIT LONGER, I suggest you never go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans, or any other type of "Event"/"March" in your own town. Just curious, would you complain if it were say a 4th of july parade that was making your trip home longer? Oh and what if you saw a couple engaging in some patriotic PDA? Oh my goodness, how nasty!


I'm sorry, I thought I was having an adult discussion here (I know.. it's Fark...), but the rather copious amounts of sarcasm in your post pretty much indicates that you have no inclination to having an adult conversation.


I wasn't being sarcastic and I am sooo sorry I had to use a holiday parade to make my point. You (IHMO) made a statement about OUR pride parade holding you up from getting home. I merely asked you if another type of parade would have you so upset about being in traffic and if you saw a couple kissing at THAT parade would you find it so gross. But, you can read it as me being a smartass if you want. It's your choice, but that's the tone I intended my reply to be.
 
2013-06-29 08:28:54 PM

kukukupo: Gross.  Leave your weird ass fetishes in the bedroom where they belong.  Don't push this crap on normal people.


So, I expect you'll be dressed in your government mandated attire the next time you're out? What's that? Oh right. There is no official dress code and people can wear whatever they like even if you personally find it obnoxious and silly.

Kind of like all those people that wear their pants halfway down(seriously pull yer g'damn pants up for crissakes).
 
2013-06-29 08:29:28 PM

megarian: Hmmmm.....might yum. Depends on beer/movie selections. And as long as he's okay with me beer-drinking while WOWing.


Indeed I am. Are you on Moon Guard, by any chance? I've got a Rogue I'd love to run ToT with you.

Although I'm rather confused at what  atomicmask thinks he's accomplished by posting a picture of me I publicly posted in my profile in the thread. Am I supposed to be insulted or something?
 
2013-06-29 08:29:40 PM
I don't get the transgender hate, period.

I mean, I like men, 100%.  Some people like women 100%.  But that's irrelevant.  Not everybody is 100% male or 100% female.  Some people have different bodies, chromosomes, sex organs than what society perceives.  What does it matter?  If you're not attracted to somebody, then so be it.  If you're attracted to someone that doesn't fit the stereotypical gender mold, then so be it.  What's the big deal?  How does it negatively impact your life?  If it does, then how is that impact anything but self inflicted or concocted from ignorance?

Let people be who and what they are and move on with it.  Stop being a bitter, hateful asshole.  Transgender concerns aside, you'll be a happier, healthier person for it.
 
2013-06-29 08:30:24 PM

omeganuepsilon: [cutting large chunk of text to save space and not annoy everyone else]


Like I mentioned a couple of posts back, my understanding is that "pride parades" are designed to counteract the shame that society aims at people just for existing the way they do. Granted, it may seem confrontational but it's a very easy way to raise awareness, which can also help to counter social shame. You don't get "straight parades" because you're not made to feel shameful, unwanted and generally less for it.

I think that is part of the problem.  Simply calling it a "Pride" parade is self defeating if you're wishing to convince others you are equals, as it inherently comes off as arrogance.  Bigots will see it as a challenge, an insult, not as a demonstration of fact.  You shouldn't "challenge" them to accept you, you should "convince" them.

So how would you go about it?
 
2013-06-29 08:30:34 PM

ciberido: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event?  Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

It may be worth pointing out the difference between transgender and transsexual.  A transsexual is the classic "woman trapped in a man's body" or vice-versa.  "Transgender" is an umbrella term which includes transsexual but also includes a number of other folk who aren't actually transsexual but who otherwise differ from what society sees as "normal" in terms of sexual identity.  To give one example, there are many people who regularly cross-dress but who are not transsexual.

So keep in mind that there are many people who are NOT transsexual but who ARE transgender.  If you meet such a person, please don't just assume that they are "pretending" or "faking it."


THIS
 
2013-06-29 08:31:27 PM

jso2897: Is it me, or is the quality of Fark trolling shiat-poor lately?


Well, it's Pride Weekend around these parts. They probably have a full schedule.
 
2013-06-29 08:31:38 PM

atomicmask: hardinparamedic: atomicmask: PS, what you posted was attention whores.

I'm sorry. I can't hear your whining over the sound of how awesome these people are.

[cdn.acidcow.com image 468x681]
[img3.etsystatic.com image 414x444]
[farm7.staticflickr.com image 640x427]

[fc06.deviantart.net image 850x1269]
[4.bp.blogspot.com image 333x500]

Sorry. You're pretty much Abe at this point.

Hey look, I found another picture of a huge delusional dork!
[img.fark.net image 453x604]

Also you trail me around like the tail I never wanted, god damn you have the biggest mancrush on me I have ever seen.


Oh gods no! You went into my profile and posted a picture I publicly posted for people to see anyway!

Oh the horror. Oh the shame you might have caught me in day two of Farm Rescue/Extraction training! Oh Gosh, How Will I ever live down a racist, homophobic old man who tells other countries the meaning of racial purity for their people making fun of me on the internet!
 
2013-06-29 08:31:42 PM
*Popcorn*

/next TG support group meeting next week
 
2013-06-29 08:33:05 PM

omeganuepsilon: Why do we all need to be prideful as if we're better or special unique snowflakes?


you're rather missing the point
 
2013-06-29 08:34:01 PM

FloydA: Fair enough, as long as you hold the Fourth of July, Memorial Day, St. Patrick's Day, etc. parades to the same standard. Since you (wisely) stayed home out of the heat, I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that they were really "shoving it in your face" though (unless the parade route actually passes through your house, that would be excessive, and you'd have every right to complain! I would too).



Pretty much. I'm honestly not much of a parade person anyways. Except Disneyland parades. I love those. More so because they tend to shorten the lines to the rides than for the actual content. Of course 6 Flags > Knotts > Disneyland, but now we're headed off on a tangent.

Fair enough, as long as your solution is to just not look, and turn your head as you walk past, that's fine. I'm sure we agree that nobody else is obligated to behave according to anyone's personal preferences but their own. I can't stand Brussels sprouts, personally, but I wouldn't try to prevent other people from eating them, even if I had the power.

...and I completely agree. My personal favorite retort to people fighting against gay marriage on religious grounds is to ask them when the fight against no-fault divorce is going to start? That hurts the "sanctity of marriage" infinitely more than gay marriage does. However considering most people can see themselves or someone they love getting a divorce easier than getting a gay marriage, it's not something they plan on fighting against.
 
2013-06-29 08:34:41 PM

mafiageek1980: JPINFV: bwilson27: I respect everyone's right to do or be whatever they want. Have NO problem with it... But look at me!!! I need attention!!

as far as being "out", we wouldn't have the NEED to be "out" if being Trans didn't lead to being bullied (or worse), and not accepted for who we are. So yeah, until we are seen as equals (aka: no one would think twice about seeing a Trans person in public/PDA, etc) then yeah, we have to "parade" and inform the public about us to promote understand and pride. There's a trans closet, and I am glad I am out of it. Why be ashamed?


I understand that. Thanks for saying it.
 
2013-06-29 08:35:33 PM
I'm just a boy in a dress!?

www.latinheat.com

/ Don't give a shiat
// Fly yer freak flag wherever it suits ya...
 
2013-06-29 08:36:43 PM

ciberido: It may be worth pointing out the difference between transgender and transsexual.  A transsexual is the classic "woman trapped in a man's body" or vice-versa.  "Transgender" is an umbrella term which includes transsexual but also includes a number of other folk who aren't actually transsexual but who otherwise differ from what society sees as "normal" in terms of sexual identity.  To give one example, there are many people who regularly cross-dress but who are not transsexual.

So keep in mind that there are many people who are NOT transsexual but who ARE transgender.  If you meet such a person, please don't just assume that they are "pretending" or "faking it."


I'm more confused at the people who can't seem to separate Gender from Sexual Fetishes (like Emassculation or Crossdressing), and seem to assume people who are either transsexual or transgendered are just trying to shove their "fetish" in other people's faces.

Come to think of it, inability to separate neurobiological or psychological concepts from sexual acts seems to be a running theme for the religious/social "conservatives"

/and I use that term as a farcical, mocking term.
 
2013-06-29 08:37:27 PM
Please everyone.  Mind your own business with regards to personal aspects of other people's lives.  Develop boundaries and maintain them.

/that is all
 
2013-06-29 08:38:35 PM

Shedim: She's also been about my only source - it seems the only decent information about trans* people comes from trans* people themselves. Which is handy in terms of getting good quality, firsthand information, but there isn't exactly a wealth of it in mainstream media (TV, film, literature, video games etc.). If I may go a little off-topic, what do you think could be done about getting more information out there in helpful ways?


Well, there are websites and books and the usual resources.  You might start with "True Selves" or "Just Add Hormones."  For a website, I guess I'd begin with glaad.org's transgender page.

Also keep in mind that, while firsthand information is great, no single person can speak for all transgender folk, just as no single woman can speak for all lesbians or single man can speak for all gay men.
 
2013-06-29 08:38:39 PM
what about a parade for fat trannies or trans fats
 
2013-06-29 08:38:53 PM

Jon iz teh kewl: where's the obesity pride parade??

[newsphilter.files.wordpress.com image 410x308]


This is the obesity pride parade - they don't like to walk much.
 
2013-06-29 08:40:35 PM
i1.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-06-29 08:41:07 PM

ciberido: Well, there are websites and books and the usual resources.  You might start with "True Selves" or "Just Add Hormones."  For a website, I guess I'd begin with glaad.org's transgender page.

Also keep in mind that, while firsthand information is great, no single person can speak for all transgender folk, just as no single woman can speak for all lesbians or single man can speak for all gay men.


The good resources currently to research are the psychiatric community groups, like the APA, who are currently leading the charge in treatment of TG/TS individuals. There is a huge push to identify and treat these patients as children and before puberty, as it is a lot safer and less invasive/painful and expensive to do so. Europe has been ahead of the curve for a while now.
 
2013-06-29 08:41:10 PM

ciberido: Shedim: She's also been about my only source - it seems the only decent information about trans* people comes from trans* people themselves. Which is handy in terms of getting good quality, firsthand information, but there isn't exactly a wealth of it in mainstream media (TV, film, literature, video games etc.). If I may go a little off-topic, what do you think could be done about getting more information out there in helpful ways?

Well, there are websites and books and the usual resources.  You might start with "True Selves" or "Just Add Hormones."  For a website, I guess I'd begin with glaad.org's transgender page.

Also keep in mind that, while firsthand information is great, no single person can speak for all transgender folk, just as no single woman can speak for all lesbians or single man can speak for all gay men.


THIS. It takes a combo of getting to know others and research.
 
2013-06-29 08:41:14 PM

willfullyobscure: I'm glad to see folks exercising their relatively high-extreme normative class and race privileges to rally for trans issues. However, as a transethnic autistic pangender asexual demiromantic otherkin(cat), I'm afraid there's just not a lot of support out there for me and my kind, so I think a little recognition of my daily struggles with psychonormative, heteronormative, homonormative, transnormative, ethnonormative, ableist, racist, classist, sizest, speciest attitudes that can make my life a living hell is well deserved.


Oh god, the Tumblr, it burns
 
2013-06-29 08:41:45 PM
:A lot of fuss for about 20 people (how many multiple photos of people did I see)?
 
2013-06-29 08:44:49 PM

hardinparamedic: I'm more confused at the people who can't seem to separate Gender from Sexual Fetishes (like Emassculation or Crossdressing), and seem to assume people who are either transsexual or transgendered are just trying to shove their "fetish" in other people's faces.

Come to think of it, inability to separate neurobiological or psychological concepts from sexual acts seems to be a running theme for the religious/social "conservatives"

/and I use that term as a farcical, mocking term.



You can only give people the benefit-of-the-doubt-rope for so long, before you have to let go.

By the way, transgendered is a bullshiat word, because transgender is already an adjective. The former makes it sound as if it's something that someone has been struck with, and that certainly isn't the case.
 
2013-06-29 08:45:14 PM

mafiageek1980: I wasn't being sarcastic and I am sooo sorry I had to use a holiday parade to make my point. You (IHMO) made a statement about OUR pride parade holding you up from getting home. I merely asked you if another type of parade would have you so upset about being in traffic and if you saw a couple kissing at THAT parade would you find it so gross. But, you can read it as me being a smartass if you want. It's your choice, but that's the tone I intended my reply to be.


Yes, because there's another way to interpret that final comment of "how nasty" and it continues in this post with word choices like "sooo sorry." The righteous indignation isn't called for and it's quite frankly coming off as a "OMG, like someone is so disagreeing with me. How dare they disagree with me."


In regards to PDA at pride parades vs elsewhere, as I already qualified, I don't care whether it's "a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place." No, seriously, that's pretty much an exact quote (I didn't copy-pasta it) that I used very early on in this thread, including the rather lame pop culture reference.

The "holiday parade" is a perfectly valid analogy, and I'm honestly not a parade person anyways.
 
2013-06-29 08:45:35 PM

Shedim: Utter Genius: Meanwhile, back in reality, there is zero scientific evidence that sex reassignment surgery improves anyone's life or mental well-being.

[imgs.xkcd.com image 500x271]


Citations do not work that way.
www.broodingdetective.com

I mean, I don't doubt that such evidence exists, but the proper move on your part is to post the evidence, thus proving him wrong.

/ Or, to paraphrase Dick Cheney: Absence of the evidence of the absence of evidence is not evidence of the absence of the absence of evidence
 
2013-06-29 08:45:45 PM

mafiageek1980: Shedim: RKade: I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!"

Well, I'm not an authority on this (lowest difficulty setting and an admittedly incomplete understanding of the subject), but I don't think all trans* people view the surgery the same way. Some trans* people are happy to just identify as the other gender without wanting to go through the surgery at all, and they're okay with being a man that happens to have a vagina or a woman who happens to have a penis. For those that want the surgery, I think it's more to do with wanting a body that physically matches their mental gender, so they choose to go through the counselling, hormones, surgery and all that.

So I guess it's more down to the individual trans* person; some are okay with how they are, others would appreciate the correction - asking the dealer for replacement cards instead of trying to use the hand they have, to clumsily continue the poker analogy.

/I welcome additions/corrections/slaps upside the head from actual trans* people that happen to read this.

You did very well. I am in the catagory of "not wanting the surgery". I don't feel the NEED to have the surgery to feel like a dude even though I ID as a dude. and you are right: Each trans person is different. So yeah, you kick ass and all :) Thanks :)


Well son of a biatch... a real honest to god answer from someone who wasn't a trans backed up by a trans... and the first answer to boot.

*shakes head* I don't understand this topsy-turvy world! It wasn't at ALL like this last time! :P

In all seriousness, thank you very much, both of you, for that very nice and easy to understand explanation. Now I just need to find a trans who did the surgery and pick their brain. Surely, that's for more private channels than a thread like this though.
 
2013-06-29 08:46:20 PM
JPINFV:

...and I completely agree. My personal favorite retort to people fighting against gay marriage on religious grounds is to ask them when the fight against no-fault divorce is going to start? That hurts the "sanctity of marriage" infinitely more than gay marriage does. However considering most people can see themselves or someone they love getting a divorce easier than getting a gay marriage, it's not something they plan on fighting against.

Good point.  My personal opinion is that the pride week block parties tend to be pretty fun, and the costumes can be funny, so I'm all in favor of this tradition.  Any excuse to celebrate is a good one, IMO.

 Speaking of which, the pub's just opened, so I'm outa here.  See ya.
 
2013-06-29 08:47:17 PM
Oh, and when in doubt, assume the person is a "he".  It might seem sexist, but generally those who identify as female will let it slide, and those who identify will as male will be happy.
 
2013-06-29 08:48:56 PM

MrHappyRotter: Oh, and when in doubt, assume the person is a "he".  It might seem sexist, but generally those who identify as female will let it slide, and those who identify will as male will be happy.



Uhm, no.
 
2013-06-29 08:50:30 PM

Jon iz teh kewl: where's the obesity pride parade??

It happens daily at your local Walmart.

 
2013-06-29 08:51:43 PM

hardinparamedic: megarian: Hmmmm.....might yum. Depends on beer/movie selections. And as long as he's okay with me beer-drinking while WOWing.

Indeed I am. Are you on Moon Guard, by any chance? I've got a Rogue I'd love to run ToT with you.

Although I'm rather confused at what  atomicmask thinks he's accomplished by posting a picture of me I publicly posted in my profile in the thread. Am I supposed to be insulted or something?


That was not my intention.

I said "yum" because yum. Aaa and that was the thought I put into it. He posted a picture. I looked at your profile associated with said picture. And after some "wtf" I got over it and moved to "yum".

So there's that. Atomicwhatever might be "yum" for all I know. But I have no idea. So now here we are.
 
2013-06-29 08:51:47 PM

ciberido: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event?  Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

It may be worth pointing out the difference between transgender and transsexual.  A transsexual is the classic "woman trapped in a man's body" or vice-versa.  "Transgender" is an umbrella term which includes transsexual but also includes a number of other folk who aren't actually transsexual but who otherwise differ from what society sees as "normal" in terms of sexual identity.  To give one example, there are many people who regularly cross-dress but who are not transsexual.

So keep in mind that there are many people who are NOT transsexual but who ARE transgender.  If you meet such a person, please don't just assume that they are "pretending" or "faking it."


I didn't say I would assume any such thing.  What I wondered was if someone would &/or could; and I have to say, given the almost infinite variations on how people behave, it's not unlikely.

As to the rest: I don't care.  Trans, gay, Asian, straight, religious, lesbian or whatever people etc., etc. are all afflicted and endowed with same vices and virtues as the rest of humanity.  One could be transgendered and still be the most hateful person on the planet; conversely one could be the nicest; it really is that simple.  I prefer to deal with individuals based on their conduct as members of the human race, not categorize them into "like me = good, or not like me = bad."
 
2013-06-29 08:53:31 PM

mafiageek1980: JPINFV: bwilson27: I respect everyone's right to do or be whatever they want. Have NO problem with it... But look at me!!! I need attention!!

I'm mixed on this one. On one hand, I've always had a problem with people being "proud" of something they had no choice in. Skin color, gender, ethnic background, religion (for the vast majority of people), country of citizenship (unless you've seriously visited another 1st world country, and no Mexico doesn't count for the Americans, then you really haven't made a choice), sexuality, gender, and many other things falls into this category. If straight/gay, cisgender/transgender is considered a birth trait and not a choice, why is it anything to be proud of? Now, I'm not saying that someone should be ashamed, just that it is an "it is what it is" characteristic.

On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get, being open with their sexual/gender identity is something to be proud about. That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive. Public displays of affection (besides standard things like a peck) are disgusting regardless of whether it's a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place.

I don't see how PDA is nasty, but to each their own.

as far as being "out", we wouldn't have the NEED to be "out" if being Trans didn't lead to being bullied (or worse), and not accepted for who we are. So yeah, until we are seen as equals (aka: no one would think twice about seeing a Trans person in public/PDA, etc) then yeah, we have to "parade" and inform the public about us to promote understand and pride. There's a trans closet, and I am glad I am out of it. Why be ashamed?


Oh, yea, one more thing. Do you want to know how you didn't read my entire post? No really, want to know? Go back and re-read the second paragraph. You know, the one that starts with "On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get."

So we've got righteous indignation, sarcasm, and now an inability to read an entire post before retorting with something that I already posted I agreed with.
 
2013-06-29 08:54:55 PM

JPINFV: I'm sorry, I thought I was having an adult discussion here (I know.. it's Fark...), but the rather copious amounts of sarcasm in your post pretty much indicates that you have no inclination to having an adult conversation.


Serious question here... when did sarcasm and adult conversation become mutually exclusive?
 
2013-06-29 08:56:42 PM

serial_crusher: JPINFV: I'm sorry, I thought I was having an adult discussion here (I know.. it's Fark...), but the rather copious amounts of sarcasm in your post pretty much indicates that you have no inclination to having an adult conversation.

Serious question here... when did sarcasm and adult conversation become mutually exclusive?


When it only serves to spite someone you disagree with.
 
2013-06-29 08:57:02 PM

ACunningPlan: JPINFV: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event?  Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

/Not being snarky, btw.  Be, do, find happiness with whomever & whatever you like; as long as it's legal & consenting, none of it bothers me.

Something like Trans/Gay pride I could understand. As someone who had to sit through an AA meeting for school (class assignment for a psych class), I can't think of anyplace more boring to go for a hookup. Never mind that they pretty much all have preexisting baggage (it's one thing if you hit it off with someone who has major baggage, but why preselect for it?).

Agreed.  And the AA analogy wasn't a good one.  But people's oddities never cease to amaze me, and I did wonder if in an atmosphere where "appearances" [for want of a better word] are fluid, would/could someone pretend?


Well, there are people who are specifically attracted to transgender folk.  From the few conversations I've had with transsexuals about the issue, I get the impression that many transsexuals find them highly annoying (though I obviously cannot speak for an entire group).  It is perhaps analogous to losing your leg in a care accident and then discovering that there was a whole world of amputee fetishists out there who want to date you BECAUSE you lost a leg.

I don't know.  It never really occurred to me that someone who wasn't transgender would pretend to be, but I suppose anything is possible.  It makes about as much sense as pretending to be a drug addict to meet other singles, I guess.
 
2013-06-29 08:58:03 PM

Shedim: omeganuepsilon: [cutting large chunk of text to save space and not annoy everyone else]

 counteract the shame that society aims 


So how would you go about it?


I understand the purpose.  I'm just saying, that for every 3 steps forward, there are two steps back because of the delivery and public reception.  It would be better to simply take one step forward.

How would I go about it?  I wouldn't even change much.  The campaign's intent is admirable but the execution can be self somewhat self defeating.  A shift in PR is all.  Retiring terms that are problematic based on how others will inevitably perceive them due to their actual definitions(as explained about pride)

Awareness, acceptance, confidence, etc.  instead of pride, things of that nature.

If you want the enemy to accept you, or at least for their less indoctrinated to believe that less, do not give that stereotypical example.

MLK taught this in a way.  He separated himself from violence and supremacy and such, held it in contempt himself.  He didn't dress "white", he dressed professional, which is in reality a popular neutral sense of style and manner.  While he did have an accent, he didn't give into reveling in the slang and style of popular culture. He taught similarities and wrote off the differences asnegligible.

That is the key to acceptance.  Find that common ground,removes focus from the outliers, the radically different.  Same concepts on making friends on an individual level.  Get to know them and find the common ground, and begin doing things together.

Don't celebrate the differences, that imprints as victory and is also a challenge to the psyche of bigots.
Don't go reveling in and flaunting the flamboyant, that conveys superiority. Use their language and remain calm and confident.

Just general guidelines, mind you, not instructions.

Remember, the conservatives have their decadences and pleasures as well.  They tend to keep them out of the public and professional side of things however, they care about their public image.  When they campaign, they do it in a suit, or to the local populace(ie casual wear).

It's like SLC punk.  It is not selling out, it is buying in.  If you want to win, you've got to fight them at home.

*shrugs*

At least you responded intelligently and rationally, more than I have come to expect on Fark.(and that goes for any given topic, not just LBGT threads)
 
2013-06-29 08:59:27 PM

MrHappyRotter: Oh, and when in doubt, assume the person is a "he".  It might seem sexist, but generally those who identify as female will let it slide, and those who identify will as male will be happy.


No. Pronouns don't work that way. If you must use pronouns at all, why not try these?

Or, better yet, why not ask the person concerned what pronouns you should use to refer to them?
 
2013-06-29 08:59:39 PM

MechaPyx: RKade: I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!" so I guess I'll just say...

Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?

Why should they accept the hand they were dealt when there's a perfectly viable solution? Why shouldn't any of us take advantage of modern medicine and technology to improve our lives when possible? Isn't that what it's there for? Bottom line it's their life, their body, their choice.

Also, it seems hypocritical to ask trans people to justify their choices but not the millions of others who elect to have cosmetic surgery. All those women out there getting boob jobs and vaginal beautification procedures? Just deal with it. All those guys who went for penile implants, etc? Deal with it. Hair restoration? Nope. You're going bald. Deal with it. Hair turning gray? Deal with it. Six fingers on your right hand? Deal with it.

Seriously, who gives a fark what someone else decides to do with their body. Unless you're sleeping with them it's really no one else's business.


Now, see, this is the kind of shiat I got last time. What's wrong with wanting to understand? I'm not castigating them. I don't really care about what they choose providing it's legal and doesn't infringe on my rights. I have an opinion overall on changing oneself but I'm not going to club people with it because, well, I'm not them. I will answer your points though because I'm bored.

Why should they accept the hand they were dealt when there's a perfectly viable solution? Perfectly isn't quite the right word. From what I've read, transition surgery is a big, bad, pain in the ass that you've got to want as much as, say, gastric bypass surgery. It majorly changes your body in a majorly imperfect way so, naturally, I'm curious why someone would want to subject themselves to, in my opinion, that particular brand of hell. As for the rest of that paragraph, my wife and I think those surgeries are ridiculous and unnecessary save for the under-1% who genuinely need something like that done (say some lady lost about 1000 pounds and needed the skin cut off or a girl who was born with wildly different sized breasts.)

Also, it seems hypocritical to ask trans people to justify their choices but not the millions of others who elect to have cosmetic surgery. All those women out there getting boob jobs and vaginal beautification procedures? Just deal with it. All those guys who went for penile implants, etc? Deal with it. Hair restoration? Nope. You're going bald. Deal with it. Hair turning gray? Deal with it. Six fingers on your right hand? Deal with it.  Yep, that's my opinion on it. Like I said though, that's MY opinion and they're free to do whatever they want. Who am I? Just some balding cripple-from-birth on the internets.

Seriously, who gives a fark what someone else decides to do with their body. Unless you're sleeping with them it's really no one else's business. I do because I'm curious. They don't have to answer if they don't want to. Thankfully, someone a lot nicer than you has cleared up the majority of my question though so thank god for that right?

Just putting it out there. I've been severely disabled my entire life. Eyes, ears, GI, back, joints, and especially my terrible lungs. I've worked with the cards I've been dealt. If a surgery came out THAT WAS SAFE, I'd take it in a heartbeat. If the trans surgery was safe, I'd have less of a curiosity about it, chalking it up to other, non-harmful cosmetic surgeries. Facts are facts though. Trans surgeries are big, life altering deals and I'm curious about those who would do them because... REASONS!!!

Thanks again, other two people who gave me a good answer. This is fun.
 
2013-06-29 08:59:46 PM

JPINFV: mafiageek1980: JPINFV: bwilson27: I respect everyone's right to do or be whatever they want. Have NO problem with it... But look at me!!! I need attention!!

I'm mixed on this one. On one hand, I've always had a problem with people being "proud" of something they had no choice in. Skin color, gender, ethnic background, religion (for the vast majority of people), country of citizenship (unless you've seriously visited another 1st world country, and no Mexico doesn't count for the Americans, then you really haven't made a choice), sexuality, gender, and many other things falls into this category. If straight/gay, cisgender/transgender is considered a birth trait and not a choice, why is it anything to be proud of? Now, I'm not saying that someone should be ashamed, just that it is an "it is what it is" characteristic.

On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transgendered folks get, being open with their sexual/gender identity is something to be proud about. That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive. Public displays of affection (besides standard things like a peck) are disgusting regardless of whether it's a guy and a girl, two girls, two guys, or two guys, a girl, and a pizza place.

I don't see how PDA is nasty, but to each their own.

as far as being "out", we wouldn't have the NEED to be "out" if being Trans didn't lead to being bullied (or worse), and not accepted for who we are. So yeah, until we are seen as equals (aka: no one would think twice about seeing a Trans person in public/PDA, etc) then yeah, we have to "parade" and inform the public about us to promote understand and pride. There's a trans closet, and I am glad I am out of it. Why be ashamed?

Oh, yea, one more thing. Do you want to know how you didn't read my entire post? No really, want to know? Go back and re-read the second paragraph. You know, the one that starts with "On the other hand, given the pure shiat that homosexuals and transg ...


Oh I read the whole damn thing, thank you very much, but your quote about us, does NOT make up for the fact in the very next sentence you state :"That said, shoving it into everyone's faces is generally a bit counterproductive".
 
2013-06-29 09:00:19 PM
It puts the lotion on the skin and does it whenever it's told


/Thread
 
2013-06-29 09:01:07 PM

kukukupo: Gross.  Leave your weird ass fetishes in the bedroom where they belong.  Don't push this crap on normal people.


Gross.  Leave your stupid-ass bigotry in your head where it belongs.  Don't push this crap on normal people.
 
2013-06-29 09:01:21 PM

ciberido: ACunningPlan: JPINFV: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event?  Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

/Not being snarky, btw.  Be, do, find happiness with whomever & whatever you like; as long as it's legal & consenting, none of it bothers me.

Something like Trans/Gay pride I could understand. As someone who had to sit through an AA meeting for school (class assignment for a psych class), I can't think of anyplace more boring to go for a hookup. Never mind that they pretty much all have preexisting baggage (it's one thing if you hit it off with someone who has major baggage, but why preselect for it?).

Agreed.  And the AA analogy wasn't a good one.  But people's oddities never cease to amaze me, and I did wonder if in an atmosphere where "appearances" [for want of a better word] are fluid, would/could someone pretend?

Well, there are people who are specifically attracted to transgender folk.  From the few conversations I've had with transsexuals about the issue, I get the impression that many transsexuals find them highly annoying (though I obviously cannot speak for an entire group).  It is perhaps analogous to losing your leg in a care accident and then discovering that there was a whole world of amputee fetishists out there who want to date you BECAUSE you lost a leg.

I don't know.  It never really occurred to me that someone who wasn't transgender would pretend to be, but I suppose anything is possible.  It makes about as much sense as pretending to be a drug addict to meet other singles, I guess.



Few decent people want to be attractive for what they are are rather than who they are.
 
2013-06-29 09:02:02 PM

RKade: Well son of a biatch... a real honest to god answer from someone who wasn't a trans backed up by a trans... and the first answer to boot.

*shakes head* I don't understand this topsy-turvy world! It wasn't at ALL like this last time! :P

In all seriousness, thank you very much, both of you, for that very nice and easy to understand explanation. Now I just need to find a trans who did the surgery and pick their brain. Surely, that's for more private channels than a thread like this though.


You're welcome. I prefer to answer sensibly because a) this is a subject I find interesting and b) there are enough people shiatting up the Internet as it is - I don't need to add to it.
 
2013-06-29 09:04:20 PM

ciberido: kukukupo: Gross.  Leave your weird ass fetishes in the bedroom where they belong.  Don't push this crap on normal people.

Gross.  Leave your stupid-ass bigotry in your head where it belongs.  Don't push this crap on normal people.


I have a question about this kind of mindset. Obviously, Ciberido, you think this guy's an idiot. Why respond to his idiocy in a way that makes your side look just as bigoted. Not everyone can be openminded about everything.

Just let the turds that lack air bubbles of rational thought sink to the bottom of the bowl, dig?
 
2013-06-29 09:04:33 PM
I don't understand the attraction. Do what ya wanna do but meh. I don't get it.

And the derisive "phobe" suffix on your favorite fetish is insinuating that there's a fear of it.

I just think it's funny.
 
2013-06-29 09:04:48 PM

ciberido: ACunningPlan: JPINFV: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event?  Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

/Not being snarky, btw.  Be, do, find happiness with whomever & whatever you like; as long as it's legal & consenting, none of it bothers me.

Something like Trans/Gay pride I could understand. As someone who had to sit through an AA meeting for school (class assignment for a psych class), I can't think of anyplace more boring to go for a hookup. Never mind that they pretty much all have preexisting baggage (it's one thing if you hit it off with someone who has major baggage, but why preselect for it?).

Agreed.  And the AA analogy wasn't a good one.  But people's oddities never cease to amaze me, and I did wonder if in an atmosphere where "appearances" [for want of a better word] are fluid, would/could someone pretend?

Well, there are people who are specifically attracted to transgender folk.  From the few conversations I've had with transsexuals about the issue, I get the impression that many transsexuals find them highly annoying (though I obviously cannot speak for an entire group).  It is perhaps analogous to losing your leg in a care accident and then discovering that there was a whole world of amputee fetishists out there who want to date you BECAUSE you lost a leg.

I don't know.  It never really occurred to me that someone who wasn't transgender would pretend to be, but I suppose anything is possible.  It makes about as much sense as pretending to be a drug addict to meet other singles, I guess.


Now I'm sitting here thinking to myself that if I was an attractive woman, it might be fun to troll the transsexual community by pretending I was one of them but pulling it off better than them.

/ Wait, wasn't there a King of the Hill episode like that?
 
2013-06-29 09:06:18 PM

RKade: If the trans surgery was safe, I'd have less of a curiosity about it, chalking it up to other, non-harmful cosmetic surgeries. Facts are facts though. Trans surgeries are big, life altering deals and I'm curious about those who would do them because... REASONS!!!



It is a fairly safe surgery. The primary (and still rare) dangers are secondary: loss of sensation, inability to achieve orgasm, possibly urinary tract complications. Weighing the minor possibilities of those outcomes versus a thoroughly unworkable existence is a non-contest.
 
2013-06-29 09:06:36 PM

runcible spork: By the way, transgendered is a bullshiat word, because transgender is already an adjective. The former makes it sound as if it's something that someone has been struck with, and that certainly isn't the case.


I'm not sure who or what is the authority on the topic, but GLAAD's page says you should never use "transgendered" and always use "transgender" as an adjective.

If there's some other guide out that which contradicts or supersedes this, I'd like to know.
 
2013-06-29 09:07:56 PM
serial_crusher: Now I'm sitting here thinking to myself that if I was an attractive woman, it might be fun to troll the transsexual community by pretending I was one of them but pulling it off better than them.


Why not pretend to be FtM? Surely you can pull that off?
 
2013-06-29 09:08:34 PM

megarian: That was not my intention.

I said "yum" because yum. Aaa and that was the thought I put into it. He posted a picture. I looked at your profile associated with said picture. And after some "wtf" I got over it and moved to "yum".

So there's that. Atomicwhatever might be "yum" for all I know. But I have no idea. So now here we are.


Oh no. I know it was not your intention. I was addressing two different musings. But I appreciate the complement. :)

You keep being awesome, though! Atomicmask doesn't like me because I get him whargarbling mad whenever he posts racist, bigoted, or stupid things.
 
2013-06-29 09:11:03 PM
ciberido:
Well, there are people who are specifically attracted to transgender folk. [wikipedia link]

oi40.tinypic.com

I'm sorry, but that is farking hilarious.
 
2013-06-29 09:11:43 PM

runcible spork: RKade: If the trans surgery was safe, I'd have less of a curiosity about it, chalking it up to other, non-harmful cosmetic surgeries. Facts are facts though. Trans surgeries are big, life altering deals and I'm curious about those who would do them because... REASONS!!!

It is a fairly safe surgery. The primary (and still rare) dangers are secondary: loss of sensation, inability to achieve orgasm, possibly urinary tract complications. Weighing the minor possibilities of those outcomes versus a thoroughly unworkable existence is a non-contest.


I was including all the hormone treatments in the surgery. I guess I should have called it "the procedure." Don't all the hormones with the surgery do a number on your body?

Oh god, has medical science finally evolved since last I looked? Not my fault. One eye. Didn't see it :P
 
2013-06-29 09:11:54 PM
FINE!!!!


It puts the lotion in the basket or it gets the hose again.

//Thread
 
2013-06-29 09:12:13 PM

ciberido: runcible spork: By the way, transgendered is a bullshiat word, because transgender is already an adjective. The former makes it sound as if it's something that someone has been struck with, and that certainly isn't the case.

I'm not sure who or what is the authority on the topic, but GLAAD's page says you should never use "transgendered" and always use "transgender" as an adjective.

If there's some other guide out that which contradicts or supersedes this, I'd like to know.



So GLAAD agrees with this amateur lexicographer. Good. When in doubt, think and use common sense.

/ I also agree with the transgender/transsexual-as-adjective stance. Would you think it's respectful to call someone "a homosexual" or "a black"? (*There are some notable exceptions to this view, principally "lesbian.")
 
2013-06-29 09:12:47 PM
first page had Sarina Valentina.. subsequent pages fail at having Sarina Valentina.  That is all.
 
2013-06-29 09:12:57 PM
Ah yes, lets take our children and completely warp their minds by deceiving them into believing that this deviant behavior is normal. Good going liberal farking trash.

Account created: 2013-06-22 19:04:34


Bane of Broone
Oh noes! There goes my validity!

It's okay. You weren't using it anyway.


JPINFV
I'm mixed on this one. On one hand, I've always had a problem with people being "proud" of something they had no choice in. Skin color, gender, ethnic background, religion (for the vast majority of people), country of citizenship (unless you've seriously visited another 1st world country, and no Mexico doesn't count for the Americans, then you really haven't made a choice), sexuality, gender, and many other things falls into this category. If straight/gay, cisgender/transgender is considered a birth trait and not a choice, why is it anything to be proud of? Now, I'm not saying that someone should be ashamed

It's to cancel out them being constantly told to be ashamed.


kukukupo
Gross. Leave your weird ass fetishes in the bedroom where they belong. Don't push this crap on normal people.

Gender-normative heterosexuality is just a fetish.


serial_crusher
Citations do not work that way.

It's reasonable to expect that there has been a medical study on the matter, and if Utter Genius is right then it should be possible to find a study which shows little or no change.

/which I suppose is "evidence of an absence"
//and that was Rumsfeld
 
2013-06-29 09:13:49 PM

serial_crusher: ciberido: ACunningPlan: JPINFV: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event?  Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

/Not being snarky, btw.  Be, do, find happiness with whomever & whatever you like; as long as it's legal & consenting, none of it bothers me.

Something like Trans/Gay pride I could understand. As someone who had to sit through an AA meeting for school (class assignment for a psych class), I can't think of anyplace more boring to go for a hookup. Never mind that they pretty much all have preexisting baggage (it's one thing if you hit it off with someone who has major baggage, but why preselect for it?).

Agreed.  And the AA analogy wasn't a good one.  But people's oddities never cease to amaze me, and I did wonder if in an atmosphere where "appearances" [for want of a better word] are fluid, would/could someone pretend?

Well, there are people who are specifically attracted to transgender folk.  From the few conversations I've had with transsexuals about the issue, I get the impression that many transsexuals find them highly annoying (though I obviously cannot speak for an entire group).  It is perhaps analogous to losing your leg in a care accident and then discovering that there was a whole world of amputee fetishists out there who want to date you BECAUSE you lost a leg.

I don't know.  It never really occurred to me that someone who wasn't transgender would pretend to be, but I suppose anything is possible.  It makes about as much sense as pretending to be a drug addict to meet other singles, I guess.

Now I'm sitting here thinking to myself that if I was an attractive woman, it might be fun to troll the transsexual community by pretending I was one of them but pulling it off better than them.

/ Wait, wasn't there a King of the Hill episode like that?


You mean the episode with Peggy Hill getting caught up with a drag show because she her feet are so big she can only shop at a store that caters to trans people? She didn't realize it until the end of the episode, she thought they were just women with large feet like her.
 
2013-06-29 09:14:50 PM

ACunningPlan: ciberido: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event?  Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

It may be worth pointing out the difference between transgender and transsexual.  A transsexual is the classic "woman trapped in a man's body" or vice-versa.  "Transgender" is an umbrella term which includes transsexual but also includes a number of other folk who aren't actually transsexual but who otherwise differ from what society sees as "normal" in terms of sexual identity.  To give one example, there are many people who regularly cross-dress but who are not transsexual.

So keep in mind that there are many people who are NOT transsexual but who ARE transgender.  If you meet such a person, please don't just assume that they are "pretending" or "faking it."

I didn't say I would assume any such thing.  What I wondered was if someone would &/or could; and I have to say, given the almost infinite variations on how people behave, it's not unlikely.



In general my posts are directed to everyone in the thread, so when I say "please don't do X" I'm not specifically calling one person out or accusing any one person of anything.  There are exceptions to this, but when such exceptions occur, I usually try to name the person specifically or otherwise make it very clear I'm talking about one specific person.

The fact that I am quoting you does not really mean that my post is aimed AT you.  It's more to provide the context of what prompted me to say what I am about to say.

A funny thing about English is that we use the pronoun "you" for at least 3 different things, and that does cause a fair bit of confusion sometimes.  My "yous" are often, but of course not always, generic.

That said (and now I AM addressing  ACunningPlan specifically), I believe I responded to what you did wonder in a later post.
 
2013-06-29 09:15:09 PM
meatsack_01
I don't understand the attraction. Do what ya wanna do but meh. I don't get it.

It's not about you.
 
2013-06-29 09:17:41 PM

ciberido: runcible spork: By the way, transgendered is a bullshiat word, because transgender is already an adjective. The former makes it sound as if it's something that someone has been struck with, and that certainly isn't the case.

I'm not sure who or what is the authority on the topic, but GLAAD's page says you should never use "transgendered" and always use "transgender" as an adjective.

If there's some other guide out that which contradicts or supersedes this, I'd like to know.


I wonder if it would be possible to quantify how much damage all these semantics do to the fight for equality.  After a while I just get exhausted trying to remember all the nuances of how to refer to particular sub-groups that all seem effectively the same to me.

It's like that guy who gets upset about the use of the word "heavy metal", because "heavy metal" is actually a particular type of metal, and there's totally a difference between thrash metal and speed metal, and rapmetal shouldn't even be categorized as metal and oh jesus shut the fark up dude.

Sure, within the "trans community" it makes sense to have that discussion, but the more you bleed it to outsiders the more annoyed we get.
 
2013-06-29 09:18:24 PM
Trans pride!  Yay!  I'm so proud of my severed penis!  I'm a girl now, right?

i.imgur.com
 
2013-06-29 09:18:40 PM

RKade: I was including all the hormone treatments in the surgery. I guess I should have called it "the procedure." Don't all the hormones with the surgery do a number on your body?

Oh god, has medical science finally evolved since last I looked? Not my fault. One eye. Didn't see it :P



The hormones, while undeniably helpful and influential, aren't particularly dangerous. That said, the effects of testosterone are much more dramatic than those of estrogens. As the well-informed hardinparamedic has mentioned, the best results occur when transition is effected prior to puberty, as it avoids the need to undo its ravages. Despite what uninformed knnejerks say, this isn't so controversial. Gender is a much more fundamental element than sexuality. Most transsexual people know their true gender by around age 5 or 6, while sexuality is typically contemporary with puberty, a so-called "sexual awakening."
 
2013-06-29 09:19:02 PM

Shedim: MrHappyRotter: Oh, and when in doubt, assume the person is a "he".  It might seem sexist, but generally those who identify as female will let it slide, and those who identify will as male will be happy.

No. Pronouns don't work that way. If you must use pronouns at all, why not try these?



"If you must use pronouns at all"?  Seriously?  Have you ever tried NOT using sex-specific pronouns for a day?   The Pronoun Game is not easy.

I challenge you to spend an otherwise normal day not using any pronouns which specify the sex of the people you're talking about.  Come back and tell us how that day went.
 
2013-06-29 09:19:46 PM

RanDomino: meatsack_01
I don't understand the attraction. Do what ya wanna do but meh. I don't get it.

It's not about you.


Exactly, which is one of the most perplexing things to me.

I'm going to a support group for my personal benefit, not anyone elses.
 
2013-06-29 09:20:32 PM
Now, people will be able to understand the real meaning of a tranny; which is an automatic transmission that doubles as a manual transmission.
 
2013-06-29 09:21:53 PM
It was a very, um... modern Pride march. Very polite and parade-oriented. Still, other than the SA idiots who wanted to turn it into a Vote Sawant rally by all accounts it went very well.
 
2013-06-29 09:22:28 PM

mike_the_engineer: Trans pride!  Yay!  I'm so proud of my severed penis!  I'm a girl now, right?

[i.imgur.com image 513x375]


Uh, that's not how MtF SRS works, and there is a huge controversy among providers, to the point of actively talking people out of undergoing genital reassignment currently, due to the risks of it. Even among infants who are born with sex-linked chromosomal gender disorders or ambiguous genitalia, doctors will hold off if possible (sometime's it's not) to assign a genital form until the concept of neurobiological gender is solidified.
 
2013-06-29 09:24:31 PM
......

Would you fark me? I'd fark me.

I'd fark me hard. I'd fark me so hard.

///Thread?
 
2013-06-29 09:26:00 PM

Shedim: Or, better yet, why not ask the person concerned what pronouns you should use to refer to them?


And call out the fact that they're very much not passing?
 
2013-06-29 09:26:04 PM

runcible spork: serial_crusher: Now I'm sitting here thinking to myself that if I was an attractive woman, it might be fun to troll the transsexual community by pretending I was one of them but pulling it off better than them.

Why not pretend to be FtM? Surely you can pull that off?


That just doesn't seem like as much fun.  I don't think I qualify as a particularly attractive male, but I certainly don't have that many feminine physical characteristics so I guess I could pull it off.  "Wow, I'd kill for back hair like that!  That hairline looks like it's actually receding on its own!  You must have spent years working on that beer gut!"

Even if I was an idealized perfectly fit manly man, I still don't think it would be as much fun.  Trolling MtFs would rely heavily on the female predisposition towards cattiness.  But now I'm wondering, how many FtMs retain their natural female cattiness?  Seems like that's one of the first things you'd want to lose in the FtM transition, one of the first things you'd want to gain in the MtF transition.
 
2013-06-29 09:26:47 PM

Utter Genius: Meanwhile, back in reality, there is zero scientific evidence that sex reassignment surgery improves anyone's life or mental well-being.

But hey, how's that 41% suicide attempt rate working out for ya, trannies?


Uh, two things. First, you're completely full of shiat.  SRS is not an all or nothing thing. Many people who are transgender do NOT go through with a full plastic reshaping of their genitals for the fact that it carries huge risks, like loss of urinary or sexual function, and inability to achieve orgasm. It also results in complete sterility. Secondly, there IS evidence - which is why the psychiatric community has been pushing to reclassify Gender Identity Disorder as a birth defect, rather than a mental health problem.

The other thing is that you have no farking clue why the suicide rate for transgenders is so high if you think it's because of SRS. You're probably the same caliber of person who says gays kill themselves because they're sinful.
 
2013-06-29 09:27:05 PM

serial_crusher: I wonder if it would be possible to quantify how much damage all these semantics do to the fight for equality.  After a while I just get exhausted trying to remember all the nuances of how to refer to particular sub-groups that all seem effectively the same to me.

It's like that guy who gets upset about the use of the word "heavy metal", because "heavy metal" is actually a particular type of metal, and there's totally a difference between thrash metal and speed metal, and rapmetal shouldn't even be categorized as metal and oh jesus shut the fark up dude.

Sure, within the "trans community" it makes sense to have that discussion, but the more you bleed it to outsiders the more annoyed we get.


I don't feel that's a valid analogy. Sure, I'm biased, but I'll try to work through that, Even so, I think it can be worked with. Transgender = metal. Transgender--and metal-- encompasses the "subgenres": true transsexual, gender fluid, gender queer, transsexual-but-no-thanks-to-surgery, et al / black, death, speed, rap, et al. Using that simple structure as a foundation, you don't have to worry about specifics. See? it isn't so recondite.
 
2013-06-29 09:27:34 PM

ciberido: ACunningPlan: ciberido: ACunningPlan: I wonder if anyone whose tastes lie in this direction, ever pretends to be TG at this sort of an event?  Like people that attend AA meetings [and there are people that do] to socialize and pick up dates etc., but aren't actually alcoholics.

It may be worth pointing out the difference between transgender and transsexual.  A transsexual is the classic "woman trapped in a man's body" or vice-versa.  "Transgender" is an umbrella term which includes transsexual but also includes a number of other folk who aren't actually transsexual but who otherwise differ from what society sees as "normal" in terms of sexual identity.  To give one example, there are many people who regularly cross-dress but who are not transsexual.

So keep in mind that there are many people who are NOT transsexual but who ARE transgender.  If you meet such a person, please don't just assume that they are "pretending" or "faking it."

I didn't say I would assume any such thing.  What I wondered was if someone would &/or could; and I have to say, given the almost infinite variations on how people behave, it's not unlikely.


In general my posts are directed to everyone in the thread, so when I say "please don't do X" I'm not specifically calling one person out or accusing any one person of anything.  There are exceptions to this, but when such exceptions occur, I usually try to name the person specifically or otherwise make it very clear I'm talking about one specific person.

The fact that I am quoting you does not really mean that my post is aimed AT you.  It's more to provide the context of what prompted me to say what I am about to say.

A funny thing about English is that we use the pronoun "you" for at least 3 different things, and that does cause a fair bit of confusion sometimes.  My "yous" are often, but of course not always, generic.

That said (and now I AM addressing  ACunningPlan specifically), I believe I responded to what you did wonder in a later po ...


Yes you did address my ponderings in the other answer.  I think the amputees analogy is the best one yet, for the thought I was trying to express.

No worries on the "yous", that's the delicious complexity of language and communication at work [jimo].  Often words which start out as misunderstandings [civilized ones of course] produce very interesting conversations:)
 
2013-06-29 09:30:49 PM

Shedim: Or, better yet, why not ask the person concerned what pronouns you should use to refer to them?


Or, better yet, why not just use the gender-neutral pronoun our language already provides and refer to everyone as "it" unless they specifically request otherwise?

/really? ask people every time you wish to refer to them? you don't think that will slow communication down at all?
 
2013-06-29 09:30:56 PM

serial_crusher: runcible spork: serial_crusher: Now I'm sitting here thinking to myself that if I was an attractive woman, it might be fun to troll the transsexual community by pretending I was one of them but pulling it off better than them.

Why not pretend to be FtM? Surely you can pull that off?

That just doesn't seem like as much fun.  I don't think I qualify as a particularly attractive male, but I certainly don't have that many feminine physical characteristics so I guess I could pull it off.  "Wow, I'd kill for back hair like that!  That hairline looks like it's actually receding on its own!  You must have spent years working on that beer gut!"

Even if I was an idealized perfectly fit manly man, I still don't think it would be as much fun.  Trolling MtFs would rely heavily on the female predisposition towards cattiness.  But now I'm wondering, how many FtMs retain their natural female cattiness?  Seems like that's one of the first things you'd want to lose in the FtM transition, one of the first things you'd want to gain in the MtF transition.



I honestly think you mean well, but you are understandably ignorant here.
 
2013-06-29 09:31:46 PM

runcible spork: serial_crusher: I wonder if it would be possible to quantify how much damage all these semantics do to the fight for equality.  After a while I just get exhausted trying to remember all the nuances of how to refer to particular sub-groups that all seem effectively the same to me.

It's like that guy who gets upset about the use of the word "heavy metal", because "heavy metal" is actually a particular type of metal, and there's totally a difference between thrash metal and speed metal, and rapmetal shouldn't even be categorized as metal and oh jesus shut the fark up dude.

Sure, within the "trans community" it makes sense to have that discussion, but the more you bleed it to outsiders the more annoyed we get.

I don't feel that's a valid analogy. Sure, I'm biased, but I'll try to work through that, Even so, I think it can be worked with. Transgender = metal. Transgender--and metal-- encompasses the "subgenres": true transsexual, gender fluid, gender queer, transsexual-but-no-thanks-to-surgery, et al / black, death, speed, rap, et al. Using that simple structure as a foundation, you don't have to worry about specifics. See? it isn't so recondite.


Couldn't have said it better myself
 
2013-06-29 09:32:03 PM

ArcadianRefugee: Or, better yet, why not just use the gender-neutral pronoun our language already provides and refer to everyone as "it" unless they specifically request otherwise?



Oh, come now.
 
2013-06-29 09:32:57 PM

RKade: ciberido: kukukupo: Gross.  Leave your weird ass fetishes in the bedroom where they belong.  Don't push this crap on normal people.

Gross.  Leave your stupid-ass bigotry in your head where it belongs.  Don't push this crap on normal people.

I have a question about this kind of mindset. Obviously, Ciberido, you think this guy's an idiot. Why respond to his idiocy in a way that makes your side look just as bigoted. Not everyone can be openminded about everything.

Just let the turds that lack air bubbles of rational thought sink to the bottom of the bowl, dig?



The short answer is: it amused me to do so.  Copying-and-pasting his own post and then changing only three words to turn it around was easy and it seemed clever at the time.  And if it was neither amusing nor clever, it at least took little time.

The long answer is: There are two schools of thought on the issue.  One is summed up by the quotes "Silence is the voice of complicity" and "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" (often attributed to Edmund Burke although its exact origin is disputed).  In large part because of the false-consensus effect, it is very common for people (especially bigots) to overestimate how many agree with them, making it all the more important to make it clear that the bigot speaking does NOT represent as many as he thinks he does.

The second school of thought is yours, that bigots are best rendered powerless by ignoring them.  I respect your opinion, but I do not share it.

Additionally, I fail to see how describing bigotry as bigotry is itself bigotry, which is what you seem to be implying with "makes your side look just as bigoted."

So, while I appreciate that your advice is both well-intentioned and based on a well-established school of thought, I will probably continue to follow my pattern regardless.
 
2013-06-29 09:35:55 PM

God-is-a-Taco: ciberido:
Well, there are people who are specifically attracted to transgender folk. [wikipedia link]

[oi40.tinypic.com image 715x215]

I'm sorry, but that is farking hilarious.


I have to admit it holds promise as a short film in which someone holds a "Transfan Convention" and the two groups meet.
 
2013-06-29 09:36:52 PM

Shedim: Or, better yet, why not ask the person concerned what pronouns you should use to refer to them?


"Oh, just call me Pat."

s3-ec.buzzfed.com
 
2013-06-29 09:37:32 PM

hardinparamedic: Many people who are transgender do NOT go through with a full plastic reshaping of their genitals for the fact that it carries huge risks, like loss of urinary or sexual function, and inability to achieve orgasm. It also results in complete sterility.



Those may seem like huge risks, but when the alternative is to try to persist in an untenable, excruciating existence, those risks are dwarfed in significance. Currently, the GRS for MtF is much more satisfactory than the other direction (one of the reasons for the higher SRS rates), but I can't imagine there are many FtM people who would forgo mastectomies.
 
2013-06-29 09:38:15 PM

runcible spork: ArcadianRefugee: Or, better yet, why not just use the gender-neutral pronoun our language already provides and refer to everyone as "it" unless they specifically request otherwise?

Oh, come now.


I think I may have already.
 
2013-06-29 09:38:42 PM

ciberido: God-is-a-Taco: ciberido:
Well, there are people who are specifically attracted to transgender folk. [wikipedia link]

[oi40.tinypic.com image 715x215]

I'm sorry, but that is farking hilarious.

I have to admit it holds promise as a short film in which someone holds a "Transfan Convention" and the two groups meet.


Or, the inevitable Trans in Transams- a buddy film. 2 mtf 1 ftm travel the country, solving crimes ©
 
2013-06-29 09:39:16 PM

ciberido: Additionally, I fail to see how describing bigotry as bigotry is itself bigotry, which is what you seem to be implying with "makes your side look just as bigoted."


You're referring to the tactic commonly used by racists and bigots of saying "You're the real intolerant racist/bigot for not letting me say what I want!", right?

To have a tolerant society, you have to reserve the right to be intolerant of those who would seek to destroy it through the avocation and promotion of racist, sexist, bigoted, or discriminatory ideals, and refuse to accept people who hide behind the bastardization of religion to do so. Tolerance of intolerance is cowardice.
 
2013-06-29 09:43:40 PM

Jon iz teh kewl: where's the obesity pride parade??


Later. Their scooters are still charging.
 
2013-06-29 09:44:07 PM

runcible spork: Those may seem like huge risks, but when the alternative is to try to persist in an untenable, excruciating existence, those risks are dwarfed in significance. Currently, the GRS for MtF is much more satisfactory than the other direction (one of the reasons for the higher SRS rates), but I can't imagine there are many FtM people who would forgo mastectomies.


I can't either, but masectomy is a procedure that's been perfected over the past 80 or so years, and doesn't involve vascular or nerve grafts, or tissue shaping through the use of intraabdominal siloing and fixation.

The FtM person I am friends with seemed to tolerate his transition well. He's also one of the best paramedics I ever had the opportunity to work with.
 
2013-06-29 09:44:58 PM

Shedim: jso2897: Is it me, or is the quality of Fark trolling shiat-poor lately?

No, it's not just you. They're probably getting ignored more so they get more desperate for attention.

That or they don't feel like trying right now.


There hasn't been a new story on the Politics Tab for a few hours now. Maybe the b-list trolls are getting antsy?
 
2013-06-29 09:45:07 PM

ciberido: God-is-a-Taco: ciberido:
Well, there are people who are specifically attracted to transgender folk. [wikipedia link]

[oi40.tinypic.com image 715x215]

I'm sorry, but that is farking hilarious.

I have to admit it holds promise as a short film in which someone holds a "Transfan Convention" and the two groups meet.


More Than Meets They Eye applies equally to both Trans groups.
 
2013-06-29 09:46:52 PM

ciberido: I challenge you to spend an otherwise normal day not using any pronouns which specify the sex of the people you're talking about. Come back and tell us how that day went.


Challenge Accepted. I've got work tomorrow (retail) so I might try there and see how long I last.

itazurakko: And call out the fact that they're very much not passing?


That does depend on what they're "passing" as. Sometimes it's not clear; usually if I'm not sure I just try to avoid pronouns, but I haven't actually encountered that problem in my day-to-day life yet.

ArcadianRefugee: Or, better yet, why not just use the gender-neutral pronoun our language already provides and refer to everyone as "it" unless they specifically request otherwise?


What, the same one we use for inanimate objects? I don't think that's very nice.
 
2013-06-29 09:46:54 PM

ciberido: Additionally, I fail to see how describing bigotry as bigotry is itself bigotry, which is what you seem to be implying with "makes your side look just as bigoted."


A bigot is known for insulting and belittling others.  In carrying out your "eye for an eye" retribution tactic, you are doing the exact same social "wrong" that he just did you.

Since we cannot read minds, the only way to tell is to judge actions.  Your actions and his are identical.

You appear to be of the same hateful mindset, you "look just as bigoted"

Are you rationalizing with "It is ok OK, because I'm the minority"? If so, that also resembles the actions of a bigot.

It is this unproductive animosity and hypocrisy that is confusing to many onlookers that don't have a dog in either race.
 
2013-06-29 09:47:22 PM
RKade....You asked what would drive someone to seek out that kind of surgery and I'm not sure how to explain it adequately. Why does anyone do the things they do? It's complicated and the reasons why can vary from person to person.

Somewhere they came to the decision that it was the right choice for them. Like I said, it's their life, their body, their choice. They have to weigh the pros and cons and decide if this will provide them an overall quality of life improvement or not. Personally? I want the surgery but I don't feel current medical technique is up to the task even with the best surgeon. I have a friend who had surgery and seems thrilled with the results. She went to one of the best surgeons though. Unfortunately, they aren't all equal. There are a number of different techniques in use, some better than others(some are jealously guarded secrets) and the skill level of the surgeons varies. Some just aren't up to the task, in my opinion.

What you're asking gets to the root of what it means to be trans and I just don't have the words to explain that. I'm honestly not trying to be mean here. A little sarcastic I'll admit but not mean. If I'm defensive it's because I'm frequently asked to justify my life choices by people who have no right to ask. Sorry if I took that out on you.
 
2013-06-29 09:47:58 PM

hardinparamedic: runcible spork: Those may seem like huge risks, but when the alternative is to try to persist in an untenable, excruciating existence, those risks are dwarfed in significance. Currently, the GRS for MtF is much more satisfactory than the other direction (one of the reasons for the higher SRS rates), but I can't imagine there are many FtM people who would forgo mastectomies.

I can't either, but masectomy is a procedure that's been perfected over the past 80 or so years, and doesn't involve vascular or nerve grafts, or tissue shaping through the use of intraabdominal siloing and fixation.

The FtM person I am friends with seemed to tolerate his transition well. He's also one of the best paramedics I ever had the opportunity to work with.



We agree, but you didn't address the existential dimension I introduced (at least for MtF).
 
2013-06-29 09:48:08 PM
trannyshare.com

yes I would, and so would you.
 
2013-06-29 09:49:11 PM

hardinparamedic: runcible spork: Those may seem like huge risks, but when the alternative is to try to persist in an untenable, excruciating existence, those risks are dwarfed in significance. Currently, the GRS for MtF is much more satisfactory than the other direction (one of the reasons for the higher SRS rates), but I can't imagine there are many FtM people who would forgo mastectomies.

I can't either, but masectomy is a procedure that's been perfected over the past 80 or so years, and doesn't involve vascular or nerve grafts, or tissue shaping through the use of intraabdominal siloing and fixation.

The FtM person I am friends with seemed to tolerate his transition well. He's also one of the best paramedics I ever had the opportunity to work with.


If I were to get ANY surgical procedure done it would be that of a Mastectomy because it would be NICE to be able to walk around without a shirt on and I would prob pass more as a guy without 48DDD boobs that kill my back, lol!!!!
 
2013-06-29 09:51:30 PM

fusillade762: Shedim: jso2897: Is it me, or is the quality of Fark trolling shiat-poor lately?

No, it's not just you. They're probably getting ignored more so they get more desperate for attention.

That or they don't feel like trying right now.

There hasn't been a new story on the Politics Tab for a few hours now. Maybe the b-list trolls are getting antsy?


Well where are they all? I came here expecting to see achingly right-on Tumblr social justice warriors calling everyone who didn't agree with them racist transphobic nazis. Like, where's the pansexual genderqueer trans-korean multisouled otherkin with 5 fictive headmates ranting at a bunch of 15 year olds? Where's the entertainment?
 
2013-06-29 09:55:19 PM
NSFW

But have a look.

http://m.efukt.com/21059_Almost_Perfect.html
 
2013-06-29 09:56:06 PM
withfriendship.com
 
2013-06-29 09:59:06 PM

MechaPyx: RKade....You asked what would drive someone to seek out that kind of surgery and I'm not sure how to explain it adequately. Why does anyone do the things they do? It's complicated and the reasons why can vary from person to person.

Somewhere they came to the decision that it was the right choice for them. Like I said, it's their life, their body, their choice. They have to weigh the pros and cons and decide if this will provide them an overall quality of life improvement or not. Personally? I want the surgery but I don't feel current medical technique is up to the task even with the best surgeon. I have a friend who had surgery and seems thrilled with the results. She went to one of the best surgeons though. Unfortunately, they aren't all equal. There are a number of different techniques in use, some better than others(some are jealously guarded secrets) and the skill level of the surgeons varies. Some just aren't up to the task, in my opinion.

What you're asking gets to the root of what it means to be trans and I just don't have the words to explain that. I'm honestly not trying to be mean here. A little sarcastic I'll admit but not mean. If I'm defensive it's because I'm frequently asked to justify my life choices by people who have no right to ask. Sorry if I took that out on you.


southparkstudios-intl.mtvnimages.com
 
2013-06-29 09:59:38 PM

runcible spork: serial_crusher: I wonder if it would be possible to quantify how much damage all these semantics do to the fight for equality.  After a while I just get exhausted trying to remember all the nuances of how to refer to particular sub-groups that all seem effectively the same to me.

It's like that guy who gets upset about the use of the word "heavy metal", because "heavy metal" is actually a particular type of metal, and there's totally a difference between thrash metal and speed metal, and rapmetal shouldn't even be categorized as metal and oh jesus shut the fark up dude.

Sure, within the "trans community" it makes sense to have that discussion, but the more you bleed it to outsiders the more annoyed we get.

I don't feel that's a valid analogy. Sure, I'm biased, but I'll try to work through that, Even so, I think it can be worked with. Transgender = metal. Transgender--and metal-- encompasses the "subgenres": true transsexual, gender fluid, gender queer, transsexual-but-no-thanks-to-surgery, et al / black, death, speed, rap, et al. Using that simple structure as a foundation, you don't have to worry about specifics. See? it isn't so recondite.


Fair enough, I'll use transgender from now on, but I'm totally bookmarking this thread in case somebody has a problem with that.

My sentiment was also kind of a reflection on the larger LGBTQ rollup acronym, so not really fair for me to misdirect that towards the transgenders
 
2013-06-29 10:00:13 PM

hardinparamedic: ciberido: Additionally, I fail to see how describing bigotry as bigotry is itself bigotry, which is what you seem to be implying with "makes your side look just as bigoted."

You're referring to the tactic commonly used by racists and bigots of saying "You're the real intolerant racist/bigot for not letting me say what I want!", right?

To have a tolerant society, you have to reserve the right to be intolerant of those who would seek to destroy it through the avocation and promotion of racist, sexist, bigoted, or discriminatory ideals, and refuse to accept people who hide behind the bastardization of religion to do so. Tolerance of intolerance is cowardice.


It is possible to let people know that they are wrong without attacking them in the same manner in which you were just attacked.  Flinging hate right back at someone only adds fuel to the fire.

Ignoring them is not a form of "tolerating" them, it's a demonstration of taking the higher moral road by treating them as if they are inconsequential.  You rob the antagonist of the satisfaction which is normally obtained in making you react in kind with him.  It does, in a very real sense, deflate them, takes away some of their social inertia.

You can ridicule them, even shame them, but it must be done with some amount of tact to come off in a light that makes one look positive.  It's called being civilized and not stooping down to their level, you may have heard of it.

If you cannot do it with civilized tact, better to ignore them than to play right into their hands(on an intellectual level)  When you trade blows with him, in his mind, it legitimizes his behavior.

Christians have and still do fark up a lot, but they do have a great philosophy buried in the religious crap.  Sometimes it is the best route available to turn the other cheek.

You just will not convince some people, the true believer will never be swayed.  Your object, then, is to sway those observing the situation.  If you come off as benevolent or at least detatched, you always leave a positive print in that area.  If you come off as a squabbling equal, you afford them a flippant decision, "Well, since they're both assholes, I'll go with Joe, he's an ok guy otherwise, he bought me a beer the other night"
 
2013-06-29 10:00:54 PM
years ago at the place i was working we had a customer who was a tg and honestly looked pretty good. If she was in a club or dark bar it would be near impossible to tell she was a he. from time to time I would go into the waiting room to talk to her and the other customer and I always addressed her as her. Well it was interesting to try and spot the signs, She was wearing sandals and her feet were a give a way, hands also and of course the adams apple if you were close.

Any how. the work is complete and I go to bill her out and her cousin who i guess left for a bit came back to join her and she leaves but I notice the male customer who was talking to her in the waiting room has gotten up and is standing by the door.  He says goodbye and then comes up to me to tell me how sexy she was and how hot her body is and if it wasn't for that other person who joined her he was going to ask her out.

I stood there giving him this odd look and he goes "what" i said dude that dude is a dude..his jaw drops, "what" I said she is a he didn't you see her feet, hands and adams apple. I could see his eyes spinning as he is putting it all together in his mind a moment later.. Awe Fark they need to wear a sign.
 
2013-06-29 10:00:59 PM

EnglishMan: fusillade762: Shedim: jso2897: Is it me, or is the quality of Fark trolling shiat-poor lately?

No, it's not just you. They're probably getting ignored more so they get more desperate for attention.

That or they don't feel like trying right now.

There hasn't been a new story on the Politics Tab for a few hours now. Maybe the b-list trolls are getting antsy?

Well where are they all? I came here expecting to see achingly right-on Tumblr social justice warriors calling everyone who didn't agree with them racist transphobic nazis. Like, where's the pansexual genderqueer trans-korean multisouled otherkin with 5 fictive headmates ranting at a bunch of 15 year olds? Where's the entertainment?


utahsportsnet.com
 
2013-06-29 10:03:16 PM
RKade: ciberido: kukukupo: Gross.  Leave your weird ass fetishes in the bedroom where they belong.  Don't push this crap on normal people.

Gross.  Leave your stupid-ass bigotry in your head where it belongs.  Don't push this crap on normal people.

I have a question about this kind of mindset. Obviously, Ciberido, you think this guy's an idiot.

Why respond to his idiocy in a way that makes your side look just as bigoted. Not everyone can be open minded about everything.


Just let the turds that lack air bubbles of rational thought sink to the bottom of the bowl, dig?

Wait. You think someone being intolerant of someone else's irrational bigotry makes *them* look "just as bigoted"?

[quizzicaldog]

I thought Ciberdo's response was perfectly cromulent and more than a little lulzy.

Yes, one can just ignore ignorant trolls but where's the sport in that?

Mocking them by flipping the template of their own post on it's head in order to make a point may not change their minds but most responses to trolls on Fark are, as a rule, aimed over their heads at people who's opinions *are* able to be changed by rational argument.

I read Ciberdo's argument underneath the joke as "being a bigot in terms of the GBLT community used to be normal but the new normal is an acceptance of "equality for all" as meaning exactly that and in that new normal your stone-aged "Teh gheys and Transpeeps are teh ick! Get it out of my face. Ew!" ranting is the new abnormal ick factor."

Only, you know, funnier.

Seriously, I'll go to a party and meet someone who's gay or bi or trans or whatever and as long as they are cool, everyone is cool.

Interject an odious obvious bigot with a couple too many cups under his belt into the same situation and see how people react.

I would add to the above that in terms "pushing this crap on people" it's the gay/bi/lesbian/transgendered community who've put up with the lion's share of the crap to date and events like this Trans Pride Parade are them and their supporters pushing *back* against that crap.

It's an important distinction. These things don't happen in a vacuum. Context matters.

/Yeah, realize that question wasn't directed at me, just sayin'.
 
2013-06-29 10:06:11 PM

serial_crusher: Fair enough, I'll use transgender from now on, but I'm totally bookmarking this thread in case somebody has a problem with that.

My sentiment was also kind of a reflection on the larger LGBTQ rollup acronym, so not really fair for me to misdirect that towards the transgenders.



I'm hoping that last part ("the transgenders") was a careless lapse.

I have a big problem with that initialism as well, because in my opinion T so obviously doesn't belong there (gender vs sexuality) and perpetuates ignorance within and without. This rankles folks on both sides, makes for much contention and controversy. Don't feel like rehashing it all just now, but I've discussed it in previous Fark threads.
 
2013-06-29 10:12:53 PM
A transgender girl becoming a man sold my ex's house. He was about to get a hammer put on.

He was scared. I gave him some info on hammer management.

He seemed pretty impressed I was so willing to help out, I was just happy to be an authority on something.
 
2013-06-29 10:13:22 PM
I hated being small and Jewish.  I FEEL like a tall black man.

farm2.static.flickr.com
 
2013-06-29 10:13:49 PM

runcible spork: I'm hoping that last part ("the transgenders") was a careless lapse.


Yeah, there's a lot of "you know what I meant" going on there.  Just to be clear, the problem is that I nounified an adjective, and should have said "transgender people"?  If that's the case, y'all need to go out and get yourselves a noun.  The word people there seems redundant, but I guess there are some who need a reminder of that.
 
2013-06-29 10:14:42 PM

spentshells: A transgender girl becoming a man sold my ex's house. He was about to get a hammer put on.

He was scared. I gave him some info on hammer management.


I appear to be missing something... you're not talking about the tool you use to drive nails, are you...?
 
2013-06-29 10:16:44 PM

Shedim: spentshells: A transgender girl becoming a man sold my ex's house. He was about to get a hammer put on.

He was scared. I gave him some info on hammer management.

I appear to be missing something... you're not talking about the tool you use to drive nails, are you...?


Trolling real hard for replies in this thread is what he has been doing.
 
2013-06-29 10:17:06 PM

Shedim: spentshells: A transgender girl becoming a man sold my ex's house. He was about to get a hammer put on.

He was scared. I gave him some info on hammer management.

I appear to be missing something... you're not talking about the tool you use to drive nails, are you...?


All kinds of euphemisms and puns to be had in your response but take it all in context and you will figure it out
 
2013-06-29 10:17:33 PM

Shedim: What, the same one we use for inanimate objects? I don't think that's very nice.


Inanimate objects don't have a gender, so using a gender-neutral term for them is appropriate. And they won't be offended either way.
 
2013-06-29 10:18:09 PM
imageshack.us
Hooray! You're all Gay!
 
2013-06-29 10:19:08 PM

alienated: Shedim: spentshells: A transgender girl becoming a man sold my ex's house. He was about to get a hammer put on.

He was scared. I gave him some info on hammer management.

I appear to be missing something... you're not talking about the tool you use to drive nails, are you...?

Trolling real hard for replies in this thread is what he has been doing.


Yes, but still this is federally mandated after Shedim's post:

i.ytimg.com
 
2013-06-29 10:19:34 PM
No man/lady lady whatever the fark ever you choose to be, that was not a troll it happened.

All the other stuff you would be right I'm on nobodies side until I meet them.
 
2013-06-29 10:22:37 PM

ArcadianRefugee: And they won't be offended either way


And you would be wrong. Trans folks do not like to be called its. Period.
 
2013-06-29 10:23:04 PM
My x is gaying it up down at pride in Toronto as I read books about volcanos to my boy who's ignoring me for Mike the knight on t.v.

I was going to go check it out myself but my kids are more fun to hangout with
 
2013-06-29 10:24:36 PM

alienated: ArcadianRefugee: And they won't be offended either way

And you would be wrong. Trans folks do not like to be called its. Period.


Can I still call fat people blubberdons?
 
2013-06-29 10:27:05 PM

FreetardoRivera: Can I still call fat people blubberdons?


I dont represent fat folks, but I personally think thats kinda mean. Some larger folks have a rather hard punch- go ahead and try it and get back to us with your results
 
2013-06-29 10:29:12 PM

Shedim: spentshells: A transgender girl becoming a man sold my ex's house. He was about to get a hammer put on.

He was scared. I gave him some info on hammer management.

I appear to be missing something... you're not talking about the tool you use to drive nails, are you...?


STOP.
 
2013-06-29 10:29:28 PM

serial_crusher: Yeah, there's a lot of "you know what I meant" going on there.  Just to be clear, the problem is that I nounified an adjective, and should have said "transgender people"?  If that's the case, y'all need to go out and get yourselves a noun.  The word people there seems redundant, but I guess there are some who need a reminder of that.



Just take a moment to think about it. Transgender is an adjective all by itself. You can call someone "a transgender" but it's dehumanizing.* I think the main issue is that people think "transgendered" is legitimate, and work back from there, which is a big mistake. Would you call someone "homosexualed"?

* As stated earlier, I'm also of the opinion that calling someone "a homosexual" (and, by extension, saying "homosexuals") or "a black" or "a Chinese" is likewise insulting. But I'll admit it can be problematic.
 
2013-06-29 10:33:02 PM

alienated: FreetardoRivera: Can I still call fat people blubberdons?

I dont represent fat folks, but I personally think thats kinda mean. Some larger folks have a rather hard punch- go ahead and try it and get back to us with your results


The result would involve them being in jail with a black eye and still being fat.
 
2013-06-29 10:33:46 PM

Great clown Pagliacci's pick-me-up: alienated: Trolling real hard for replies in this thread is what he has been doing.

Yes, but still this is federally mandated after Shedim's post:

[i.ytimg.com image 480x360]


Those mandates have changed. This is the current image required under the Obama administration's guidelines;

i1.ytimg.com

spentshells: No man/lady lady whatever the fark ever you choose to be, that was not a troll it happened.


Maybe, but you did spend 4 or 5 posts trying to force an awkward Silence of the Lambs reference, so don't blame us if we treat your claims with suspicion.
 
2013-06-29 10:33:56 PM
This thread is a trap.
 
2013-06-29 10:35:01 PM

my lip balm addiction: I forgot the Pride thingy was today and was surprised at how congested my neighborhood was. One end of Broadway is closed for 6 blocks for Pride - and at the other end the Pike Street corridor is blocked from Broadway to 12th for the Cap Hill Block Party. My 'hood is packed with people! And it is a gorgeous 87 degrees too. Gotta love Seattle on days like this!


SIGH. I used to live above Tango. Miss that place lots...
 
2013-06-29 10:36:44 PM

FreetardoRivera: The result would involve them being in jail with a black eye and still being fat.


watchoutwegotabadassoverhere.jpg
 
2013-06-29 10:39:44 PM

Hickory-smoked: Great clown Pagliacci's pick-me-up: alienated: Trolling real hard for replies in this thread is what he has been doing.

Yes, but still this is federally mandated after Shedim's post:

[i.ytimg.com image 480x360]

Those mandates have changed. This is the current image required under the Obama administration's guidelines;



spentshells: No man/lady lady whatever the fark ever you choose to be, that was not a troll it happened.

Maybe, but you did spend 4 or 5 posts trying to force an awkward Silence of the Lambs reference, so don't blame us if we treat your claims with suspicion.


Yes as I did admit but you strangely omitted from your quote.

It was a matter of convenience for me as today I was able to use the quote today in context before I found this golden opportunity to use them again.

Even without responses it was incredibly fulfilling.
 
2013-06-29 10:42:04 PM

jso2897: Is it me, or is the quality of Fark trolling shiat-poor lately?


It is not you...
 
2013-06-29 10:43:47 PM

runcible spork: serial_crusher: Yeah, there's a lot of "you know what I meant" going on there.  Just to be clear, the problem is that I nounified an adjective, and should have said "transgender people"?  If that's the case, y'all need to go out and get yourselves a noun.  The word people there seems redundant, but I guess there are some who need a reminder of that.

Just take a moment to think about it. Transgender is an adjective all by itself. You can call someone "a transgender" but it's dehumanizing.* I think the main issue is that people think "transgendered" is legitimate, and work back from there, which is a big mistake. Would you call someone "homosexualed"?

* As stated earlier, I'm also of the opinion that calling someone "a homosexual" (and, by extension, saying "homosexuals") or "a black" or "a Chinese" is likewise insulting. But I'll admit it can be problematic.


Yeah there's a lot of gray areas and inconsistency there. You can generally get away with "blacks", but "a black" is going to piss people off.  "A Chinese" is bad, but "an American" isn't.  Or is it?
You're definitely in the minority about "a homosexual" and "homosexuals" though.  I hear those a lot, and not just at WBC meetings.
 / Reminding me of the Weeds episode where one of the neighbors refers to the kid as "a jewish"
 
2013-06-29 10:47:56 PM

atomicmask: hardinparamedic: atomicmask: Oh, I didn't know when groups of people play pretend that they needed to march,

I was wondering when you'd show up. It's never a laugh riot without having to get your clever insight into topics which defies all logic, science, and common sense.

atomicmask: most of the time with a bunch of mentally ill lonely men play pretend and dress up its called a comic convention.

What mentally ill men look like:

[foodandthecity.com image 450x363]
[thevsky.com image 850x620]
[www.generalgeneral.com image 800x600]

[farm1.static.flickr.com image 333x500]

Actually. No. I can understand why you rage against things so much.

LOOK, I CAN FIND PICTURES TOO!
[2.bp.blogspot.com image 618x420]

[cdn.uproxx.com image 640x427]


PS, what you posted was attention whores.


Aw, lookit that. Misogynist too. So you hate trans people 'n' women. Who's left, sunshine?
 
2013-06-29 10:53:35 PM

RevMercutio: Aw, lookit that. Misogynist too. So you hate trans people 'n' women. Who's left, sunshine?


interlignage.fr
 
2013-06-29 10:54:52 PM

NFA: [seninf.files.wordpress.com image 850x566]

[www.thedroop.com image 266x400]

[24.media.tumblr.com image 687x1024]

[lh6.googleusercontent.com image 506x337]


A Google image search for transgender came up with these.
Hmmmm apparently not the same people at the march.


/seriously. All i saw were middle aged men cross dressing with bad moobs.  Not that there are good moobs, just saying.  Quite the disturbing group of individuals.
 
2013-06-29 11:00:02 PM
encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com

If only it was a Trans Am Pride Parade, Sadly, it's a parade of mentally ill people instead.
 
2013-06-29 11:01:17 PM
Is there a sizable trans population in Seattle?
 
2013-06-29 11:07:54 PM
I have this crazy idea that, for a lot of these haters, it's a matter of them not really liking or respecting women in the first place.

Therefore, a trans* woman is a woman they have absolutely no use for - they don't think they're farkable, so to them they see no place whatsoever in society for them. You know, the "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, making me a sammich!" crowd.

Except for the somewhat rare (1 in 10 or so) who're secretly trans* admirers and can't admit it.

/just my opinion, based on observations as a trans* woman
 
2013-06-29 11:15:16 PM

Shedim: NFA: A Google image search for transgender came up with these.
Hmmmm apparently not the same people at the march.

Somebody went overboard on the Photoshop with those pictures; they look like mannequins. Especially the fourth one.


I've gone to events with gay friends for years. I usually enjoy the drag queen shows. There are often guys that look just like those pics, usually in the audience, not on stage. I never know if they're transgender or just transvestite, but some of them just look too beautiful to be real.
 
2013-06-29 11:18:42 PM

0z79: I have this crazy idea that, for a lot of these haters, it's a matter of them not really liking or respecting women in the first place.

Therefore, a trans* woman is a woman they have absolutely no use for - they don't think they're farkable, so to them they see no place whatsoever in society for them. You know, the "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, making me a sammich!" crowd.

Except for the somewhat rare (1 in 10 or so) who're secretly trans* admirers and can't admit it.

/just my opinion, based on observations as a trans* woman


That's kind of overthinking it.  The thread of truth behind the "war on women" and the "war on gays" roots back to a general problem with "non-traditional" behavior (the "war on women" is a war on women who eschew traditional gender roles, not all women).
The "war on transgender people" has some intersections with both of those, but "women" aren't the root cause.  "being different" is.
 
2013-06-29 11:19:11 PM

mike_the_engineer: I hated being small and Jewish.  I FEEL like a tall black man.


Make some popcorn (or crack a beer), head on over to Tumblr, and browse around "transethnic." Good times...
 
2013-06-29 11:23:10 PM
I don't think I'll ever truly understand transgenderism and why we, as a society, are supposed to "tolerate" its practice.  If I told everyone I "identified" as Napolean, does that make me Napolean?  As I've said before, our asylums are full of people who believe they're something they're not.  Maybe someone here will be able to explain it to me, but I doubt it.
 
2013-06-29 11:28:02 PM

0z79: I have this crazy idea that, for a lot of these haters, it's a matter of them not really liking or respecting women in the first place.

Therefore, a trans* woman is a woman they have absolutely no use for - they don't think they're farkable, so to them they see no place whatsoever in society for them. You know, the "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, making me a sammich!" crowd.

Except for the somewhat rare (1 in 10 or so) who're secretly trans* admirers and can't admit it.

/just my opinion, based on observations as a trans* woman


That's possible.  Although some gay men are deeply misogynistic & there are lesbians who fit the stereotypical "man-hater" image....  Maybe it's more likely to be human nature at work: some people genuinely don't understand, some people get freaked by that which is different, some people are just vile and so on.

I'm a straight woman. Would I be able to identify particularly with you as a trans*woman?  Probably not, because our experiences of being a woman are so utterly different.  And I think that's true, especially for the older generations e.g.  Jan Morris on the '53 Everest expedition [as James Morris] who was only there because she hadn't yet transitioned.  In 1953 a woman - any woman - would not have been selected for that ascent, so in effect Jan Morris got an opportunity not available to her contemporaries.  But, would I be able to identify with you as another human being, absolutely - and that's what really matters.

/hope that makes sense - not trying to be offensive in any way:)
 
2013-06-29 11:28:54 PM
There's a Trans March every year in San Francisco. It never seems well organized, but SFPD is usually pretty good about providing escorts.
 
2013-06-29 11:30:45 PM

MrEricSir: There's a Trans March every year in San Francisco. It never seems well organized, but SFPD is usually pretty good about providing escorts.


How many roses do they cost the city?
 
2013-06-29 11:30:47 PM
Reality is not nearly as hot as the refined, declarative works at my local movie arcade would lead me to believe.
 
2013-06-29 11:32:41 PM

nyrB: I don't think I'll ever truly understand transgenderism and why we, as a society, are supposed to "tolerate" its practice.  If I told everyone I "identified" as Napolean, does that make me Napolean?  As I've said before, our asylums are full of people who believe they're something they're not.  Maybe someone here will be able to explain it to me, but I doubt it.


That's not really analogous since Napoleon is a specific person. There aren't many things outside of gender where people are pigeonholed into two boxes.
 
2013-06-29 11:34:32 PM

FirstNationalBastard: MrEricSir: There's a Trans March every year in San Francisco. It never seems well organized, but SFPD is usually pretty good about providing escorts.

How many roses do they cost the city?


Since it's only once a year, about 1/12th the roses required for escorting Critical Mass.
 
2013-06-29 11:39:01 PM

serial_crusher: 0z79: I have this crazy idea that, for a lot of these haters, it's a matter of them not really liking or respecting women in the first place.

Therefore, a trans* woman is a woman they have absolutely no use for - they don't think they're farkable, so to them they see no place whatsoever in society for them. You know, the "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, making me a sammich!" crowd.

Except for the somewhat rare (1 in 10 or so) who're secretly trans* admirers and can't admit it.

/just my opinion, based on observations as a trans* woman

That's kind of overthinking it.  The thread of truth behind the "war on women" and the "war on gays" roots back to a general problem with "non-traditional" behavior (the "war on women" is a war on women who eschew traditional gender roles, not all women).
The "war on transgender people" has some intersections with both of those, but "women" aren't the root cause.  "being different" is.


THIS.  All of the assorted bigotry's, racism, sexism, fatty hating, dork hating, religious hating, etc.  They're all different manifestations of the evolved social bonding mechanism of man.

Dislike and mistrust of that which is different can strengthen the bond of any given group.

In group dynamics, say, a military troop of 25 members, a single odd man out can serve a role, the blacksheep, and all get along with each other better and more efficiently and more trustingly, because they funnel all the mistrust at the outsider.  Military trainers have known this forever, it's why each man gets ribbed and mocked so hard by the TI(training instructor).  He know's it's going to happen eventually, and he labels some of those with the biggest flaws(negative attitude, not physically fit, likely to buck authority anyway). Instead of 5 little close groups, there's a cohesive unit of 24 men, 25 if the other kid doesn't let it get to him and comes along far enough to gain approval from the others.

That's a common manipulation of the effect but it happens all of the time.  Occasionally it backfires in a non-manipulated environment, the animosity doesn't cease, and in fact grows.  the outlier revels in it's ostracism as a compensation for rejection and develops it's own animosity.

That is the level a lot of society is at.  That's why I made my previous posts, but it's obviously futile, imo.  True believers on either side won't be swayed or convinced that they could be wrong.
 
2013-06-29 11:39:36 PM

hundreddollarman: [i1.kym-cdn.com image 300x300]


came here for this, leaving strangely satisfied.
 
2013-06-29 11:40:29 PM

nyrB: I don't think I'll ever truly understand transgenderism and why we, as a society, are supposed to "tolerate" its practice.  If I told everyone I "identified" as Napolean, does that make me Napolean?  As I've said before, our asylums are full of people who believe they're something they're not.  Maybe someone here will be able to explain it to me, but I doubt it.


I look at it as a "mind your own business" thing.  We don't just lock people in asylums if they haven't hurt anybody.
If you think you're Napolean, so you spend your days bowling and eating Ziggy Piggies, I could care less.  It's when you try to conquer Europe that it becomes a problem.

That said, there's a couple areas where I think it becomes the rest of our business.  i.e. there was a big argument going on a while back about whether medicare should cover sex changes.  Government programs are every voter's business (of course, it's best to put qualified experts in the position to make that decision, not armchair internet psychologists like me.  I take a "play the hand you're dealt" attitude to most situations, but the mental health community seems to disagree (the cynic in me says it's because they make more money this way)).
 There's also the gray area of when "looking weird" crosses enough social boundaries to be considered harmful.  There is a certain point where people just say "oh come on".  I don't think a man in a dress qualifies as that big of a deal, but maybe you do?


Bathrooms are an interesting experiment in "tolerance".  We grant that there's a difference between men and women, and that they need separate bathrooms, but the second you get somebody who's not so easily characterized, you've got to do something with them.  I say just have one bathroom that we all share and get over ourselves.  Hearing a chick poop isn't going to kill you.
 
2013-06-29 11:40:33 PM

nyrB: I don't think I'll ever truly understand transgenderism and why we, as a society, are supposed to "tolerate" its practice.  If I told everyone I "identified" as Napolean, does that make me Napolean?  As I've said before, our asylums are full of people who believe they're something they're not.  Maybe someone here will be able to explain it to me, but I doubt it.


It would be one thing if a person simply "identified" as the opposite sex, and then behaved as a sane, rational, well-adjusted member of the opposite sex.

The reality is that these individuals typically exhibit symptoms of mental/emotional pathologies that may suggest that their sexual identification is part of a larger mental health concern.

If a man wants to be a woman or vice versa, who gives a shiat? But often they want I also be assholes, and have their assholishness protected under the guise of transgender rights.
 
2013-06-29 11:42:05 PM

EmmaLou: Is there a sizable trans population in Seattle?


"I don't understand this big ruckus about this so called sizable tan population in Seattle!  It's not their fault it rains so much! Just because there's less tan people in Seattle,,, doesn't mean there's no sizable,,,, "

"Umm,, Emma? That's sizable "Trans" population. Not tan". Trans.

"Oh,,,, well,,,  ummm,,,,, that's very different. Never mind"
 
2013-06-29 11:46:11 PM
Trans folks face a fair amount of discrimination, even among the LGB community. It's not just about homophobes, but about folks who are uncomfortable with trans folks who break a lot of stereotypes, and challenge a lot of folks notions about gender.

And that is what is at the heart of it.

Gender identity is at times mutable. It challenges folks' notions about who someone is, who they can be, and it makes some folks uncomfortable. In many cases, LGB folks who are fighting for recognition, it can seem to be a distraction, and it plays into stereotypes, as well as challenges some notions that folks have been trying to mainstream for some time. It derails some feminist and gay dogma that has been around for years. Trans folks challenge expectations and notions of what gender is, and to some, they feel they muddy the waters and makes the ground to defend so wide, that it is difficult to get a single message across.


And it's not hard. Folks want their own dignity. They define themselves. Folks deserve their own dignity, to live their lives, to love who they love, and not be judged on others' expectations. Be they gay and like to dress in drag for fun. Be they lesbian and have a butch bend. Be they a man who feels trapped in his own body by a quirk of brain chemistry. Be they a woman who is the same boat. Be they a man who has been traumatized to the point of hating his own gender, and looking for a respite and an escape, a place to feel safe and who needs the time to come to grips with things. For a woman in the same boat. Gender is less about polar opposites, as opposed to a scale that rings with many notes. And accepting folks who are different, isn't that hard. Is it something that challenges you? Quite possibly. Is it going to hurt you to call someone who you knew as a man at first, and then wants to transition? Not really. If they are important to you, their relationship is important to you, then you support them. Support people. Support them, and help them, and sometimes that does mean digging a bit to get to know them better. To understand what's going on.

Had a good friend who really hated being a man. Yes, there was a lot of trauma in his background. He hated the whole mess, and for him, he wanted to be shut of the whole shebang, and live as a woman. We supported her as she wanted to be, but likewise, we wanted her to get some more than cursory counseling. She met a woman who loved her. Who accepted her. And in that relationship, our friend had the realization that while the gender didn't matter to her lover, she really wanted her to be well. To be happy. To shed a lot of weight that she'd been carrying. And that halted her from going the full transition. In the end, he accepted who he was, that the damage that he carried was his own, and that it had made him a stronger human, and it was in that cocoon of safety that he'd retreated into, for a time, that helped him see that the gender wasn't the issue at all. But the process, the steps, were important for him to come full circle.

Not everyone is that case though. Some folks have brain chemistry quirks that aren't the result of trauma or damage. Some folks are born different. And supporting folks in their journey, that's up to us. To help our brothers and sisters, or at least not actively be douchebags to them on their journey. There is a difference between helping folks figure their sh*t out, and questioning their motives, and just being an asshat.

In the end, well, Mal sums it up pretty well...

lh6.googleusercontent.com
 
2013-06-29 11:46:12 PM

ArcadianRefugee: Shedim: What, the same one we use for inanimate objects? I don't think that's very nice.

Inanimate objects don't have a gender, so using a gender-neutral term for them is appropriate. And they won't be offended either way.


They have gender if you're Spanish or French (and some other languages).
 
2013-06-29 11:47:20 PM
Glad to see things are getting normalized. Got no problem with straights/gays/transes/aliens, whatever at all, just so long as said person is truthful in their personal relationships and upfront about what they are to the other.

When you throw parades that make you seem/look like the normal folk you can be, you get acceptance. So pleased to not see the idiots who used to walk down the street 75% naked, wearing a strap-on, and pantomiming sucking cock in plain view of the public in broad daylight we used to see. That shiat ruins the movement for everyone.
 
2013-06-29 11:56:26 PM
Studies have shown that transgender individuals have differences in their brain physiology.

You can disagree with how they choose to act upon their internal, biological conflict. But hating on them simply for existing and thinking that they're just a bunch of social deviants is incredibly ignorant and cruel.
 
2013-06-29 11:58:35 PM

serial_crusher: nyrB: I don't think I'll ever truly understand transgenderism and why we, as a society, are supposed to "tolerate" its practice.  If I told everyone I "identified" as Napolean, does that make me Napolean?  As I've said before, our asylums are full of people who believe they're something they're not.  Maybe someone here will be able to explain it to me, but I doubt it.

I look at it as a "mind your own business" thing.  We don't just lock people in asylums if they haven't hurt anybody.
If you think you're Napolean, so you spend your days bowling and eating Ziggy Piggies, I could care less.  It's when you try to conquer Europe that it becomes a problem.


My biggest problem is that we, as a society are expected to "play along" and if we don't, we're somehow "intolerant".  If you want to pretend you're something you're not that's fine.  That's totally you're business.  Pretend you're a tree for all I care.  But don't expect me to call you a tree.
 
2013-06-30 12:03:48 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: nyrB: I don't think I'll ever truly understand transgenderism and why we, as a society, are supposed to "tolerate" its practice.  If I told everyone I "identified" as Napolean, does that make me Napolean?  As I've said before, our asylums are full of people who believe they're something they're not.  Maybe someone here will be able to explain it to me, but I doubt it.

It would be one thing if a person simply "identified" as the opposite sex, and then behaved as a sane, rational, well-adjusted member of the opposite sex.

The reality is that these individuals typically exhibit symptoms of mental/emotional pathologies that may suggest that their sexual identification is part of a larger mental health concern.

If a man wants to be a woman or vice versa, who gives a shiat? But often they want I also be assholes, and have their assholishness protected under the guise of transgender rights.


The American Psychological Association, in one of their pamphlets about transgenderism, attempts to claim that it is not a psychological disorder.  It defines a psychological disorder as a state which causes one "significant distress".  I should think if you are in a position where you are so uncomfortable with the way you were born that you feel compelled to undergo surgical operations to transform your body into something else, then you're probably under significant distress.  But what do I know?
 
2013-06-30 12:05:22 AM

GhostFish: Studies have shown that transgender individuals have differences in their brain physiology.

You can disagree with how they choose to act upon their internal, biological conflict. But hating on them simply for existing and thinking that they're just a bunch of social deviants is incredibly ignorant and cruel.


That's the thing. These people do NOT care that there is hard science identifying that this is a biological issue. They do not care that gender is influenced by more than the Sex Chromosomes someone has. Because that would go against their very doctrine by which they attack these people.

 It's the reason people who have such disdain and hatred for those with gender or sexual variations want to label it as a "behavioral choice" or "lifestyle", or even go so far as to vilify it as nothing more than a "sexual fetish". Because by doing so, they can paint the individual as an evil, sinful person - or call into question their morality. The idea of these issues being hard wired into the human body, something they did not "choose" to become is unacceptable because it would put them on the same level as those who persecute others for their national origins, racial ethnicity, or because they have an illness or disorder they were born with.

They WANT this to be seen as a behavioral or moral choice. Because that way, they can vilify the person who doesn't "choose" to be as they are.
 
2013-06-30 12:08:15 AM

nyrB: I don't think I'll ever truly understand transgenderism and why we, as a society, are supposed to "tolerate" its practice.  If I told everyone I "identified" as Napolean, does that make me Napolean?  As I've said before, our asylums are full of people who believe they're something they're not.  Maybe someone here will be able to explain it to me, but I doubt it.


I really doubt it, too, so I'm not going to try.
 
2013-06-30 12:09:06 AM
www.american-buddha.com

/And I liked it
//But I'm not really interested in that
///Which doesn't matter at all, I can't touch
 
2013-06-30 12:14:44 AM

nyrB: The American Psychological Association, in one of their pamphlets about transgenderism, attempts to claim that it is not a psychological disorder.  It defines a psychological disorder as a state which causes one "significant distress".  I should think if you are in a position where you are so uncomfortable with the way you were born that you feel compelled to undergo surgical operations to transform your body into something else, then you're probably under significant distress.  But what do I know?


Not a lot about the topic, because diagnosing someone with a mental health disorder is NOT as cut and dry as you make it sound. You cannot diagnose one like you do a MI or infection. The actual definition of a psychiatric disorder is complex, and involves the level of distress it causes in a person's life, as well as the harm it causes to that person and others around them. Transgenderism is not something that can be treated through behavioral modification or medication - it cannot be eliminated because it is a very part of that person's neurological structure. Their brain is female, even though their external sex organs are male; or vice versa.

So the option becomes - do you do serious harm to someone by forcing them to conform to the gender they are not, or do you treat and eliminate the issue in the best manner for all involved.
 
2013-06-30 12:15:01 AM

nyrB: serial_crusher: nyrB: I don't think I'll ever truly understand transgenderism and why we, as a society, are supposed to "tolerate" its practice.  If I told everyone I "identified" as Napolean, does that make me Napolean?  As I've said before, our asylums are full of people who believe they're something they're not.  Maybe someone here will be able to explain it to me, but I doubt it.

I look at it as a "mind your own business" thing.  We don't just lock people in asylums if they haven't hurt anybody.
If you think you're Napolean, so you spend your days bowling and eating Ziggy Piggies, I could care less.  It's when you try to conquer Europe that it becomes a problem.

My biggest problem is that we, as a society are expected to "play along" and if we don't, we're somehow "intolerant".  If you want to pretend you're something you're not that's fine.  That's totally you're business.  Pretend you're a tree for all I care.  But don't expect me to call you a tree.


So what's your stance on people with androgen insensitivity syndrome? How do you want to classify those people into your nice, clean binary definitions?
 
2013-06-30 12:16:05 AM
Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom:
It would be one thing if a person simply "identified" as the opposite sex, and then behaved as a sane, rational, well-adjusted member of the opposite sex.

That's how you know MtF qualify for it. If they're sane and rational they don't actually identify as women.
 
2013-06-30 12:21:38 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: It would be one thing if a person simply "identified" as the opposite sex, and then behaved as a sane, rational, well-adjusted member of the opposite sex.

The reality is that these individuals typically exhibit symptoms of mental/emotional pathologies that may suggest that their sexual identification is part of a larger mental health concern.


Is this reality you speak of anecdotal, or was there some kind of objective study I don't know about?

I admit I've only met a handful of trans people, but in my experience they aren't particularly damaged, and certainly not more than one could fairly expect for a person who's had to wade though those issues their entire lives.
 
2013-06-30 12:24:04 AM

Hickory-smoked: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: It would be one thing if a person simply "identified" as the opposite sex, and then behaved as a sane, rational, well-adjusted member of the opposite sex.

The reality is that these individuals typically exhibit symptoms of mental/emotional pathologies that may suggest that their sexual identification is part of a larger mental health concern.

Is this reality you speak of anecdotal, or was there some kind of objective study I don't know about?

I admit I've only met a handful of trans people, but in my experience they aren't particularly damaged, and certainly not more than one could fairly expect for a person who's had to wade though those issues their entire lives.


Yeah, I can't help but feel inclined to say bullshiat. It sounds similar to how some evangelicals cite emotional distress and suicide rates among homosexuals as evidence that being gay is unhealthy.
 
2013-06-30 12:28:32 AM

nyrB: serial_crusher: nyrB: I don't think I'll ever truly understand transgenderism and why we, as a society, are supposed to "tolerate" its practice.  If I told everyone I "identified" as Napolean, does that make me Napolean?  As I've said before, our asylums are full of people who believe they're something they're not.  Maybe someone here will be able to explain it to me, but I doubt it.

I look at it as a "mind your own business" thing.  We don't just lock people in asylums if they haven't hurt anybody.
If you think you're Napolean, so you spend your days bowling and eating Ziggy Piggies, I could care less.  It's when you try to conquer Europe that it becomes a problem.

My biggest problem is that we, as a society are expected to "play along" and if we don't, we're somehow "intolerant".  If you want to pretend you're something you're not that's fine.  That's totally you're business.  Pretend you're a tree for all I care.  But don't expect me to call you a tree.


Then how about this:

www.rexkang.com

or, if that doesn't grab you, how about simply this:

www.topdan.com

You don't have to understand, you don't have to particularly even care about someone, but in the end, it's helpful to simply not be a douche. Be, kind, babies. Be kind. That's the only hard and fast rule.
 
2013-06-30 12:31:52 AM

Hickory-smoked: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: It would be one thing if a person simply "identified" as the opposite sex, and then behaved as a sane, rational, well-adjusted member of the opposite sex.

The reality is that these individuals typically exhibit symptoms of mental/emotional pathologies that may suggest that their sexual identification is part of a larger mental health concern.

Is this reality you speak of anecdotal, or was there some kind of objective study I don't know about?

I admit I've only met a handful of trans people, but in my experience they aren't particularly damaged, and certainly not more than one could fairly expect for a person who's had to wade though those issues their entire lives.


Anecdotal, though I've never researched the subject so there may be "studies" out there.

And I have nothing against trans people, they should have all rights and abilities of non-trans people. I just wish the ones I met would stop trying to excuse their personality disorders with their sexual identification. Good for you, you were born a woman but are "a man in the inside." That doesn't give you an excuse to be a douchebag.
 
2013-06-30 12:33:02 AM

GhostFish: So what's your stance on people with androgen insensitivity syndrome? How do you want to classify those people into your nice, clean binary definitions?


I don't have "nice clean binary definitions".  I willingly recognize that there are a small percentage of people who don't fall into either the "male" or "female" category for various biological reasons.  But this isn't really about them -- it's about the vast majority of those that consider themselves transgendered for purely psychological reasons.  For me it's simple: if you're biologically a man, then you're a man.  It reminds me of that Monty Python skit where the guy wanted a cat so the pet shop owner offered to take a dog, file his legs down, remove its snout, put some wires through its cheeks, and voila: a dog!
 
2013-06-30 12:36:20 AM

nyrB: GhostFish: So what's your stance on people with androgen insensitivity syndrome? How do you want to classify those people into your nice, clean binary definitions?

I don't have "nice clean binary definitions".  I willingly recognize that there are a small percentage of people who don't fall into either the "male" or "female" category for various biological reasons.  But this isn't really about them -- it's about the vast majority of those that consider themselves transgendered for purely psychological reasons.  For me it's simple: if you're biologically a man, then you're a man.  It reminds me of that Monty Python skit where the guy wanted a cat so the pet shop owner offered to take a dog, file his legs down, remove its snout, put some wires through its cheeks, and voila: a dog!


It's not like there are a lot of transgendered people out there. Who are you to say that the majority of them are acting out psychological conflicts rather than biological ones?
 
2013-06-30 12:42:26 AM

GhostFish: It's not like there are a lot of transgendered people out there. Who are you to say that the majority of them are acting out psychological conflicts rather than biological ones?


Everything I've read about transgenderism suggests that it is largely an identity issue as opposed to a biological one.  You're welcome to provide research material that says otherwise.
 
2013-06-30 12:47:06 AM
GhostFish, nyrB:

imgs.xkcd.com

I'm going to wear this picture out at this rate.
 
2013-06-30 12:49:45 AM

RKade: I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!" so I guess I'll just say...


Because, ultimately, the very diagnosis of transsexuality/transgender is that this mismatch between your body and gender is so distressing that the surgical modification to your body so that your outside comes that much closer to fitting what could be accurately called your residual self image (pulled from The Matrix, but operative and important here), in addition to hormone therapy, may be the only thing to alleviate that rather extreme distress. I don't know if it qualifies as "good enough" for you, but it happens to be true.

Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?

Strangely, it's still not considered a lesser crime in many states to kill somebody out of "cripple panic," and prosecution when people beat the shiat out of cripples on the streets isn't avoided by local conservative District Attorneys on grounds of their crippled status. As a matter of fact, in most cases, it's thought of as a more egregious crime, and "cripples" (which is an awful term) by law have many accommodations nearly universally to attempt to give them an equal shot at life. Whether those are adequate is a different discussion entirely. You will find that handicapable organizations and benefit societies often participate in other parades, including Pride, though, so in a way there is.

/Just had a friend come out to me as TG/about to start her transition.
//I have told her that I will be with her and support her every step of the way, because it is one hell of a hard process.
 
2013-06-30 12:50:35 AM

nyrB: GhostFish: It's not like there are a lot of transgendered people out there. Who are you to say that the majority of them are acting out psychological conflicts rather than biological ones?

Everything I've read about transgenderism suggests that it is largely an identity issue as opposed to a biological one.  You're welcome to provide research material that says otherwise.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7689007.stm

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/cont ent/full/85/5/2034

http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/ content/full/18/8/1900
 
2013-06-30 12:59:56 AM

nyrB: Everything I've read about transgenderism suggests that it is largely an identity issue as opposed to a biological one.  You're welcome to provide research material that says otherwise.


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences- ca ught-on-brain-scan.html

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2011/11/09/the-transs ex ual-brain/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23724358

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19751389

These are just imaging studies from a five second google search.
 
2013-06-30 01:05:59 AM

serial_crusher: There's also the gray area of when "looking weird" crosses enough social boundaries to be considered harmful. There is a certain point where people just say "oh come on". I don't think a man in a dress qualifies as that big of a deal, but maybe you do?


Slightly off your point, I think it largely depends on not just dress vs no dress (or the closely related skirt... I meant kilt), but the actual fashion value. A year or so ago there was a story on Fark about a cross dressing high school student and pretty much 99% of the negative comments on Fark weren't "OMG, boy dressing in girls clothes" but "um, dude... that outfit doesn't go together, regardless of your sex." To note, shorts with tights almost never go well together anyways.
 
2013-06-30 01:22:16 AM

MrEricSir: That's not really analogous since Napoleon is a specific person. There aren't many things outside of gender where people are pigeonholed into two boxes.


But why should we accept pigeonholing into two boxes?

The whole trans* thing reifies the "gender binary" like nothing else.  Heaven forbid we all gender bend, we all just be ourselves and admit that the shape of our junk doesn't need to have fark all to do with how we think or feel or how our personalities are.

No, no! We must have the two boxes, as commonly constructed, but you must put me in the OTHER box!!!
 
2013-06-30 01:23:12 AM

nyrB: serial_crusher: nyrB: I don't think I'll ever truly understand transgenderism and why we, as a society, are supposed to "tolerate" its practice.  If I told everyone I "identified" as Napolean, does that make me Napolean?  As I've said before, our asylums are full of people who believe they're something they're not.  Maybe someone here will be able to explain it to me, but I doubt it.

I look at it as a "mind your own business" thing.  We don't just lock people in asylums if they haven't hurt anybody. If you think you're Napolean, so you spend your days bowling and eating Ziggy Piggies, I could care less.  It's when you try to conquer Europe that it becomes a problem.

My biggest problem is that we, as a society are expected to "play along" and if we don't, we're somehow "intolerant".  If you want to pretend you're something you're not that's fine.  That's totally you're business.  Pretend you're a tree for all I care.  But don't expect me to call you a tree.


Intersexism is better understood because we can measure things like the chromosomal and hormonal and physical differences. Transgenderism it seems is more subtle and most likely rooted in the genes and brain structure and chemistry. Those are things we don't understand quite so well and are harder to measure.

People like to equate being trans to pretending to be something you're not and give examples like Napoleon or being a dolphin. Except, I can't be Napoleon. He was a specific individual and unless you believe in reincarnation it's not possible to be him. Likewise, one can't be a dolphin because we are not that species. What we are is human. Human genetics and DNA and within those blueprints is the sum total of what we are capable of being. There's still a lot we don't understand about how the human body/brain work but we do know things don't always go according to plan. So, being a dolphin? Not without a lot of genetic engineering and maybe not even then. Some trigger causing a person to develop characteristics/brain structure and chemistry, etc of the other gender? Possible.

No, there is no definitive proof. Yet. The research is starting to pile up though. So yeah, by all means remain skeptical but it's not as farfetched as you might think.
 
2013-06-30 01:24:48 AM

Shedim: GhostFish, nyrB:

[imgs.xkcd.com image 500x271]

I'm going to wear this picture out at this rate.


esp in this thread, lol! I mean, it's amazing how many "experts" we have in this thread who THINK they seem to know all about Transgender people when they don't know the first thing and it's just their opinion.
 
2013-06-30 01:27:31 AM

ACunningPlan: Jan Morris on the '53 Everest expedition [as James Morris] who was only there because she hadn't yet transitioned.  In 1953 a woman - any woman - would not have been selected for that ascent, so in effect Jan Morris got an opportunity not available to her contemporaries.


Now imagine - if Jan Morris is retroactively written up as a woman in records and is used to say that's the first woman to climb Everest, and so that proves that women complaining about discrimination have no cause to complain.

You wouldn't find that... problematic?

A more recent example, people go on and on about wow, Lana Wachowski shows just what amazing things women can do in the movies, etc etc.  As if those various accomplishments would have necessarily happened the same (or with the same PRIVILEGE working!) if Lana hadn't been a man (as outwardly judged by all and sundry) at the time.

I think that's a legitimate criticism, personally.
 
2013-06-30 01:30:32 AM
Gay-Pride Parade Sets Mainstream Acceptance Of Gays Back 50 Years
media.theonion.com
 
2013-06-30 01:34:16 AM

MechaPyx: The research is starting to pile up though.


Well, it's skeptical too.  The studies are fairly small, don't take into account homosexuality, and the main thing - they are trying to predict individual behaviors based on bell curve averages, which is bad science no matter WHAT the field is.

I mean, forget trans* issues for a moment.

There's a related field out there trying to show that we need to have sex-segregated schooling for kids because there are slight differences in the means of various bell curves related to some mental tasks, hearing acuity, that sort of thing.  And the studies are already sketchy (small sample size is just the beginning - language log at upenn has more details), but it's the same problem - people trying to apply a bell curve difference to predict individuals.

I mean, if there are seriously differences between the sexes in kids, then if you left everyone to their own devices, they'd sort themselves out.  But that's never done, instead, policing is supposedly required. It's bullshiat.

How about just letting everyone be themselves and not requiring any particular "matching" between naughty bits and personality?

If someone feels more comfortable in 2013 social world (where sadly gender policing is a thing) by getting various plastic surgery than so be it, I'm happy to live and let live and all that.  But stop it with the "oh, there's a 'female brain'" thing already.
 
2013-06-30 01:34:55 AM

GhostFish: nyrB: GhostFish: So what's your stance on people with androgen insensitivity syndrome? How do you want to classify those people into your nice, clean binary definitions?

I don't have "nice clean binary definitions".  I willingly recognize that there are a small percentage of people who don't fall into either the "male" or "female" category for various biological reasons.  But this isn't really about them -- it's about the vast majority of those that consider themselves transgendered for purely psychological reasons.  For me it's simple: if you're biologically a man, then you're a man.  It reminds me of that Monty Python skit where the guy wanted a cat so the pet shop owner offered to take a dog, file his legs down, remove its snout, put some wires through its cheeks, and voila: a dog!

It's not like there are a lot of transgendered people out there. Who are you to say that the majority of them are acting out psychological conflicts rather than biological ones?


Psychological or biological?

They are the same despite the extensive theories to the contrary, it truly is nothing more than electric impulses and chemical reactions in the brain.

You want to change your appearance farking giver, expect everyone else to go along it likely wont go over so well.


Frankly expecting others to accept what they dont want is as unfair as them not accepting you.

There are no biggot parades are there? (Fark threads excluded)
 
2013-06-30 01:38:57 AM

mafiageek1980: Shedim: GhostFish, nyrB:

[imgs.xkcd.com image 500x271]

I'm going to wear this picture out at this rate.

esp in this thread, lol! I mean, it's amazing how many "experts" we have in this thread who THINK they seem to know all about Transgender people when they don't know the first thing and it's just their opinion.


Reality for you here chum... Opinion is all anyone has due to the world not being digital, it is caos friend at all times and everywhere.
 
2013-06-30 01:45:07 AM

spentshells: Reality for you here chum... Opinion is all anyone has due to the world not being digital, it is caos friend at all times and everywhere.

kongming.net  kongming.net
 
2013-06-30 01:48:57 AM

spentshells: GhostFish: nyrB: GhostFish: So what's your stance on people with androgen insensitivity syndrome? How do you want to classify those people into your nice, clean binary definitions?

I don't have "nice clean binary definitions".  I willingly recognize that there are a small percentage of people who don't fall into either the "male" or "female" category for various biological reasons.  But this isn't really about them -- it's about the vast majority of those that consider themselves transgendered for purely psychological reasons.  For me it's simple: if you're biologically a man, then you're a man.  It reminds me of that Monty Python skit where the guy wanted a cat so the pet shop owner offered to take a dog, file his legs down, remove its snout, put some wires through its cheeks, and voila: a dog!

It's not like there are a lot of transgendered people out there. Who are you to say that the majority of them are acting out psychological conflicts rather than biological ones?

Psychological or biological?

They are the same despite the extensive theories to the contrary, it truly is nothing more than electric impulses and chemical reactions in the brain.

You want to change your appearance farking giver, expect everyone else to go along it likely wont go over so well.


Frankly expecting others to accept what they dont want is as unfair as them not accepting you.

There are no biggot parades are there? (Fark threads excluded)


Resistance is and should be expected. We have a lot of instincts telling us to reject what's different. That's basic survival.

But if we don't want to be slaves to heuristics and the slow adaptability of evolution, we need to demand more from ourselves and others.

Life's not fair. But we will continue to work towards an approximation to fairness that fits with what we can know and agree upon.
 
2013-06-30 01:53:08 AM

hardinparamedic: diagnosing someone with a mental health disorder is NOT as cut and dry as you make it sound


Sure it is.  Do you feel an overwhelming urge to chop off your penis?

No = Sane
Yes = Mental Disorder

Done.
 
2013-06-30 01:56:25 AM

itazurakko: Well, it's skeptical too.  The studies are fairly small, don't take into account homosexuality, and the main thing - they are trying to predict individual behaviors based on bell curve averages, which is bad science no matter WHAT the field is.


Homosexuality has nothing to do with transgenderism. In fact, it's even more a complex (and headache-inducing) issue WHEN talking about someone who is transgender. A FtM transgender who has a "male" brain structure and is attracted to females is not homosexual. His brain is responding the same a male brain would to a female. A MtF transgender who is attracted to males is similarly  "straight", despite having a male chromosome and primary sexual features.

spentshells: Psychological or biological?

They are the same despite the extensive theories to the contrary, it truly is nothing more than electric impulses and chemical reactions in the brain.

You want to change your appearance farking giver, expect everyone else to go along it likely wont go over so well.


Frankly expecting others to accept what they dont want is as unfair as them not accepting you.

There are no biggot parades are there? (Fark threads excluded)


Uh, no, it's not, you delicate little flower. No one is driving people to suicide because they will not accept GLBT people. No one is beating people in the streets, leaving them for dead or outright murdering them because they won't be "accepting" of them. No one is trying to pass legislation which uses the force of state and federal law to not only stifle attempts to prevent discrimination, but actively encourages it.
 
2013-06-30 01:56:38 AM

mike_the_engineer: hardinparamedic: diagnosing someone with a mental health disorder is NOT as cut and dry as you make it sound

Sure it is.  Do you feel an overwhelming urge to chop off your penis?

No = Sane
Yes = Mental Disorder

Done.




"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure, while the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell
 
2013-06-30 02:01:43 AM
Aaaand now all the trolls come out to ragewank and ejaculate blood into the thread.
 
2013-06-30 02:05:29 AM

Shedim: Aaaand now all the trolls come out to ragewank and ejaculate blood into the thread.


Speaking of people with psychological afflictions...
 
2013-06-30 02:06:28 AM

hardinparamedic: itazurakko: Well, it's skeptical too.  The studies are fairly small, don't take into account homosexuality, and the main thing - they are trying to predict individual behaviors based on bell curve averages, which is bad science no matter WHAT the field is.

Homosexuality has nothing to do with transgenderism. In fact, it's even more a complex (and headache-inducing) issue WHEN talking about someone who is transgender. A FtM transgender who has a "male" brain structure and is attracted to females is not homosexual. His brain is responding the same a male brain would to a female. A MtF transgender who is attracted to males is similarly  "straight", despite having a male chromosome and primary sexual features.

spentshells: Psychological or biological?

They are the same despite the extensive theories to the contrary, it truly is nothing more than electric impulses and chemical reactions in the brain.

You want to change your appearance farking giver, expect everyone else to go along it likely wont go over so well.


Frankly expecting others to accept what they dont want is as unfair as them not accepting you.

There are no biggot parades are there? (Fark threads excluded)

Uh, no, it's not, you delicate little flower. No one is driving people to suicide because they will not accept GLBT people. No one is beating people in the streets, leaving them for dead or outright murdering them because they won't be "accepting" of them. No one is trying to pass legislation which uses the force of state and federal law to not only stifle attempts to prevent discrimination, but actively encourages it.


I like being called a delicate little flower, that's nice, thanks..... But if what you were saying was in effect completely true these people wouldn't be parading down the farking street.

Good for them but saying I have to like it or I have the problem is a step in the wrong direction.

I judge person by person and my standards are not terribly hard to fit into for what I deem acceptable.
 
2013-06-30 02:09:38 AM

hardinparamedic: itazurakko: Well, it's skeptical too.  The studies are fairly small, don't take into account homosexuality, and the main thing - they are trying to predict individual behaviors based on bell curve averages, which is bad science no matter WHAT the field is.

Homosexuality has nothing to do with transgenderism. In fact, it's even more a complex (and headache-inducing) issue WHEN talking about someone who is transgender. A FtM transgender who has a "male" brain structure and is attracted to females is not homosexual. His brain is responding the same a male brain would to a female. A MtF transgender who is attracted to males is similarly  "straight", despite having a male chromosome and primary sexual features.

spentshells: Psychological or biological?

They are the same despite the extensive theories to the contrary, it truly is nothing more than electric impulses and chemical reactions in the brain.

You want to change your appearance farking giver, expect everyone else to go along it likely wont go over so well.


Frankly expecting others to accept what they dont want is as unfair as them not accepting you.

There are no biggot parades are there? (Fark threads excluded)

Uh, no, it's not, you delicate little flower. No one is driving people to suicide because they will not accept GLBT people. No one is beating people in the streets, leaving them for dead or outright murdering them because they won't be "accepting" of them. No one is trying to pass legislation which uses the force of state and federal law to not only stifle attempts to prevent discrimination, but actively encourages it.


Read it again and liked it better this time. Should we have a parade?
 
2013-06-30 02:13:52 AM

hardinparamedic: Homosexuality has nothing to do with transgenderism.


But it absolutely does when you're doing a supposedly blind study, trying to find brain differences in people.  You need to rule out "they're just extra gay" or the like, so they should do a study that involves both heterosexual and homosexual people.  But they didn't.  Bottom line is the sample size for the main study that gets cited from here to forever by the main "brain sex" fans is very small.  FWIW they find that the majority of kids who questioned their gender, without treatment, they just grow up to be normal gay people. So, any studies looking for brain differences would need to take it into account.

Then on top of it they're trying to say that some difference in bell curves between "women" and "men" population on some characteristic can be used to say "well, you match the "woman" half so hey congratulations you're a woman in a man's body" or similar.

It's all just very hinky.

But the same studies are used by some to "show" that we should be sex-segregating students in elementary school and that it's "natural" that women don't go into STEM fields.  It's bullshiat.

In a sense it's a theory of the mind problem.  You can't possibly know what it's like to be "the other sex" mentally or anything else. You know what it's like to be YOU.  I can completely buy that people have gender dysphoria and extreme discomfort with their own genitalia.  What I don't buy is that they "recognize" that they "think like" people who were born with female sex organs.  There's no possible way for them to know that.

If they feel better to have surgery (in our gender policing 2013 world) so they can "pass" as the other sex and so be allowed (the allowing is the part that's a problem, I agree too) to socialize with the other sex, the fine, party on.  But the objectification of "this is how women think and I recognized it in myself so I must have a 'woman brain'" yeah that part I have a problem with.

The troll upthread asking about transethnicity brings a good question there, because let's be honest the arguments are 100% identical, except the transethnic people don't have the convenient out of "well, hormones, clearly my brain was transformed."
 
2013-06-30 02:14:57 AM

mike_the_engineer: Sure it is.  Do you feel an overwhelming urge to chop off your penis?

No = Sane
Yes = Mental Disorder

Done.


You need to contact the diploma mill you got your mail order degree in psychiatric medicine in and demand a refund. Because you suck at it. Stick to whatever engineering discipline you got your training in, and leave the actual science to the scientists, and the medicine to the doctors, okay?
 
2013-06-30 02:18:15 AM

itazurakko: MrEricSir: That's not really analogous since Napoleon is a specific person. There aren't many things outside of gender where people are pigeonholed into two boxes.

But why should we accept pigeonholing into two boxes?

The whole trans* thing reifies the "gender binary" like nothing else.  Heaven forbid we all gender bend, we all just be ourselves and admit that the shape of our junk doesn't need to have fark all to do with how we think or feel or how our personalities are.

No, no! We must have the two boxes, as commonly constructed, but you must put me in the OTHER box!!!


As has already been pointed out in this thread, there are  transgender folk and then there are  transsexual folk.  You are perhaps confusing the two.  Transsexuals generally do "reify" or "buy into" the gender binary; but that is not necessarily true of transgender folk in general.
 
2013-06-30 02:21:13 AM

itazurakko: But it absolutely does when you're doing a supposedly blind study, trying to find brain differences in people.  You need to rule out "they're just extra gay" or the like, so they should do a study that involves both heterosexual and homosexual people.


Sexual orientation is a DISTINCTLY separate concept than gender. You CANNOT force someone to adopt another gender. It does not work like that.

Identifying with being a female has nothing to do with "being extra gay". It has nothing to do with mannerisms, or just wanting to wear girly clothing, or having a sexual thrill from dressing up in women's clothing.
 
2013-06-30 02:21:44 AM
southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com

I was meant to be a dolphin
 
2013-06-30 02:22:29 AM

mike_the_engineer: Sure it is.  Do you feel an overwhelming urge to chop off your penis?


For an engineer, you sure sound like an idiot.
 
2013-06-30 02:30:51 AM
alienated:For an engineer, you sure sound like an idiot.

Engineers and woo go hand in hand in a lot of cases.
 
2013-06-30 02:33:20 AM

ciberido: Transsexuals generally do "reify" or "buy into" the gender binary; but that is not necessarily true of transgender folk in general.


Ah, but they want people to put them in one or the other box, yes? That's reifying as far as I'm concerned.

Be a man in a dress, that's what's actually transgressive.
 
2013-06-30 02:33:33 AM

itazurakko: If someone feels more comfortable in 2013 social world (where sadly gender policing is a thing) by getting various plastic surgery than so be it, I'm happy to live and let live and all that.  But stop it with the "oh, there's a 'female brain'" thing already.


First off, we're not going to "stop with" scientific research into how the brain works, no matter how annoying or inconvenient you may find it, any more than we're going to "stop with" research into evolution because creationists fit it annoying and inconvenient.  Scientific truth (or as close to truth as we can get) must be discovered and made generally known no matter how well or poorly it fits with any person's political agenda or sociopolitical views.

Secondly, while your heart is in the right place, you are unfortunately in your own way as much denying the reality of transsexualism as any "these transwomen are just mentally ill men who mutilate their bodies!" transphobe.  Like most human beings, transsexuals (generally speaking, there may be exceptions or caveats I'm overlooking) consider themselves to be completely male or completely female, not "both" or "neither" or "none of the above."  That's not to say that there's anything wrong with being "both" or "neither" or "none of the above," but trying to push that identity on transsexuals is, again, ultimately as demeaning as what the garden-variety transphobes say.

Third, why are you so arrogant as to presume that a society without any gender roles whatsoever is what all humans everywhere should strive for?  Maybe we WANT gender roles, or at least some of us do.  Maybe we, some of us, LIKE them.  There's a major difference between saying that an individual should have the freedom to deviate from the expected gender role of the society he or she lives in (on the one hand) and there shouldn't be any roles for anyone, whether they want them or not.  Frankly, your presumption is not so much liberating as insulting.
 
2013-06-30 02:37:25 AM

hardinparamedic: Identifying with being a female has nothing to do with "being extra gay". It has nothing to do with mannerisms, or just wanting to wear girly clothing, or having a sexual thrill from dressing up in women's clothing.


So what is it? No one ever has an answer.

As a born woman (with the usual female naughty bits), I'm curious.  Particularly given that I've not really matched any "you should do this and that because you're a girl" my entire life up to middle age, I'm very curious.  I've never "felt like" a woman per se, I'm told I'm a woman, end of story.

But what I meant by the gay stuff is... often one of the things that people self-reporting that they think they might be trans is, they are attracted to people of the same sex.  Assuming they're het (as the default) they jump to "okay maybe I'm a girl in a boy's body because I like boys and I want them to like me like I'm their girlfriend").
 
2013-06-30 02:51:42 AM
 
2013-06-30 02:57:50 AM

itazurakko: Assuming they're het (as the default) they jump to "okay maybe I'm a girl in a boy's body because I like boys and I want them to like me like I'm their girlfriend").


feelings of gender and sexuality are completely independent of each other, the two for me have never had anything to do with each other.
 
2013-06-30 03:06:33 AM

ciberido: itazurakko: If someone feels more comfortable in 2013 social world (where sadly gender policing is a thing) by getting various plastic surgery than so be it, I'm happy to live and let live and all that.  But stop it with the "oh, there's a 'female brain'" thing already.

First off, we're not going to "stop with" scientific research into how the brain works, no matter how annoying or inconvenient you may find it, any more than we're going to "stop with" research into evolution because creationists fit it annoying and inconvenient.  Scientific truth (or as close to truth as we can get) must be discovered and made generally known no matter how well or poorly it fits with any person's political agenda or sociopolitical views.

Secondly, while your heart is in the right place, you are unfortunately in your own way as much denying the reality of transsexualism as any "these transwomen are just mentally ill men who mutilate their bodies!" transphobe.  Like most human beings, transsexuals (generally speaking, there may be exceptions or caveats I'm overlooking) consider themselves to be completely male or completely female, not "both" or "neither" or "none of the above."  That's not to say that there's anything wrong with being "both" or "neither" or "none of the above," but trying to push that identity on transsexuals is, again, ultimately as demeaning as what the garden-variety transphobes say.

Third, why are you so arrogant as to presume that a society without any gender roles whatsoever is what all humans everywhere should strive for?  Maybe we WANT gender roles, or at least some of us do.  Maybe we, some of us, LIKE them.  There's a major difference between saying that an individual should have the freedom to deviate from the expected gender role of the society he or she lives in (on the one hand) and there shouldn't be any roles for anyone, whether they want them or not.  Frankly, your presumption is not so much liberating as insulting.


You do realize, that trans folks have been around for a while, right? In more than a few Native American cultures, as well as a few Asian societies, and they weren't just accepted, but in many cases, exalted.

The funny thing about nature is that one of the big rules seems to be variation. It's not about everyone being the same. Nature tends to throw us curves all the time. Myself, I've got a whole extra vertebrae. Weird stuff happens. All the time. Gender roles developed, and are often reinforced, but that doesn't mean that folks are looking to throw all of them away when they talk about not being hide bound to them, in all cases. Some of these roles are actually still working themselves out. Things change. Things don't always conform to expectations, and that isn't so much about "progress" as much as the general order of the Universe. Variation occurs. Variation is a fairly large rule. Deviance from expectations happen in all societies. Some of that deviation is on a positive note--like charity in the case of the US. Yes, we all say that we like to be giving, but then you look around you, and realize, that while the ideal is something to strive for, we don't all hit the mark. Likewise, we say being a backstabbing, lying weasel is a bad thing, and yet, we find ourselves sometimes doing it. Human behavior is not set into stone. It does fall into patterns, and many folks find themselves within statistical averages, but then again, folks likewise outside those patterns as well.

We have in this discussion, have folks who are adamant about what gender roles should be. The conforming to expectations is desirable. The problem is, humans don't always conform, and looking to "fix" folks who don't conform...well, that leads to some hinkey places. Like, say, "homosexual re-education" which I think that many of us might agree, leads to some bad places. There will be folks who pipe wise and say that it's fine, and Because Jeebus! and that is again, variation only confirming itself. People are often dicks, and would really like it if others could be dicks JUST like them, because when you're an outlier, it gets weird what with folks looking at you and pointing.

Variation happens. It will continue to happen, until we lock ourselves up in synthetic bodies, and only reproduce consciousness by programming algorithms, and even then, variation is still going to rear it's ugly head, because that is the only way to keep a society from becoming static.

Trans folks have served roles in many societies over the years. Some actually positive, and even revered. We are in the process of maybe learning a thing or two about not being dicks about gender issues, and looking to follow my mother's peoples' example, about the nail being hammered down--and even THEY found ways of accepting folks who had trans issues.

You don't have to like, or agree with folks' reasons for looking to transition. You don't have to seek out trans folks to be friends with. The only thing you might want to do, is maybe dial back a bit on being a dick about it. Less dickishness is all folks are looking for. Judge all you want in private, but maybe remember back in gradeschool, when you got undressed in the locker room and folks giggled at your wang or your bewbs--or lack of them--and realize that yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing that you didn't like, and it's pretty much the same thing again, only writ a bit more public. All folks are asking is for you to be less of a douche.
 
2013-06-30 03:06:47 AM

Bumblefark: hardinparamedic: Their brain is female, even though their external sex organs are male; or vice versa.

Eh...maybe you should read your own citations.

"The key finding was that on average, the MtF brains were not like the female ones. There were some significant differences from the male brains, but they weren't the same differences that distinguished the females from the males."


Yeah. I did read my own citation. It's a criticism of that study, as well as pointing out they released a seemingly contradictory study based on responses to steroid compounds that stimulate and evoke responses based on sex.

Thank you for trying to point that out, however.

itazurakko: So what is it? No one ever has an answer.


Because the issue itsself is NOT fully understood to begin with. You're wanting an easy answer when there is none. It doesn't boil down to environment or learning, it does not boil down to genetics, or epigenetic factors alone. It's only in the last 30 years we've even had tools to do so, and the investigation of transgendered individuals from a scientific and biological perspective does not rank very high on the research funding totem pole at the moment.  What we DO know, however, is that gender is something that cannot be changed once it's cemented - in fact, we have over a hundred years of horror stories of ambiguous genitalia and intersexed children who were forced to live as the gender they were not to base that from. Forcing someone to attempt to conform to a gender they cannot identify with causes immense psychological and psychiatric harm - to the point of a person actively trying to harm themselves because of it.  This is not even something that is debated among the psychiatric community - and the source of psychological harm and distress in transgendered individuals is not as a result of being transgendered, but rather the issues with access to adequate treatment for their condition.

itazurakko: But what I meant by the gay stuff is... often one of the things that people self-reporting that they think they might be trans is, they are attracted to people of the same sex.  Assuming they're het (as the default) they jump to "okay maybe I'm a girl in a boy's body because I like boys and I want them to like me like I'm their girlfriend").


Because it does not work like that. Being a transgender is NOT the same thing as being homosexual. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with this. It's not some offbeat defense mechanism the mind comes up with to justify liking the same sex, or to try to fit into a female role in their society.
 
2013-06-30 03:10:25 AM

BuckTurgidson: Gay-Pride Parade Sets Mainstream Acceptance Of Gays Back 50 Years
[media.theonion.com image 250x366]


You misspelled small-minded ignorance and repressed sexuality.
 
2013-06-30 03:11:06 AM
I love that people feel an animated cartoon which is primarily about fart jokes gives them all the philosophical justification they need to treat people they don't understand like shiat.
 
2013-06-30 03:17:00 AM

hardinparamedic: Bumblefark: hardinparamedic: Their brain is female, even though their external sex organs are male; or vice versa.

Eh...maybe you should read your own citations.

"The key finding was that on average, the MtF brains were not like the female ones. There were some significant differences from the male brains, but they weren't the same differences that distinguished the females from the males."

Yeah. I did read my own citation. It's a criticism of that study, as well as pointing out they released a seemingly contradictory study based on responses to steroid compounds that stimulate and evoke responses based on sex.

Thank you for trying to point that out, however.


Welcome.

Yeah, that's a pretty stunning critique, when it ends with the conclusion, "I have no idea how, or if, the brains of MtF transsexuals are 'feminized' but this study doesn't rule it out." And, certainly, a counter-point to be given equal weight as a peer-reviewed, scientific publication.
 
2013-06-30 03:19:30 AM

WhyteRaven74: itazurakko: Assuming they're het (as the default) they jump to "okay maybe I'm a girl in a boy's body because I like boys and I want them to like me like I'm their girlfriend").

feelings of gender and sexuality are completely independent of each other, the two for me have never had anything to do with each other.


This surprises me, and I'm very serious in saying so. I'm frankly baffled.
 
2013-06-30 03:21:47 AM

Ghastly: I love that people feel an animated cartoon which is primarily about fart jokes gives them all the philosophical justification they need to treat people they don't understand like shiat.


Me too, because I am exactly that but I do so on a person by person basis so I feel completely justified and above judgment for my decisions.
 
2013-06-30 03:23:37 AM

Bumblefark: Yeah, that's a pretty stunning critique, when it ends with the conclusion, "I have no idea how, or if, the brains of MtF transsexuals are 'feminized' but this study doesn't rule it out." And, certainly, a counter-point to be given equal weight as a peer-reviewed, scientific publication.


Yeah, because Discover Magazine is exactly the same as Natural News, and someone who is a well known skeptical blogger for neuroscience and psychiatry is the same thing as Mike Adams.

*eyeroll*

These findings provide new evidence that transsexualism is associated with distinct cerebral pattern, which supports the assumption that brain anatomy plays a role in gender identity.

These findings provide further evidence that brain anatomy is associated with gender identity, where measures in MTF transsexuals appear to be shifted away from gender-congruent men.
 
2013-06-30 03:25:58 AM

omeganuepsilon: Bigots will see it as a challenge, an insult, not as a demonstration of fact.  You shouldn't "challenge" them to accept you, you should "convince" them.


There are people who are bigots, and then there are people who are prejudiced for various reasons (they are uneducated, inexperienced, indoctrinated, etc). The bigots are not the target... nothing you do will ever convince a bigot to accept you.  But by standing up to the bigot instead of hiding in the closet, you have a shot at convincing the non-bigots that the bigots are wrong, and that you're worth just as much as any other person.  I'm not trans, but I'm pretty sure that's the point of Pride.

Threadjack: It's kind of like what we're always talking about in the atheism threads.  When your worldview is fundamentally based upon tribalism and conformity, no amount of civility or placating (short of complete silence) will ever be enough because the very existence of someone who is "other" is offensive.   Hence the The signs on buses that say "There's probably no god, stop worrying and live your life" aren't aimed at the theists... they're aimed at the people whose minds are still open.

typophile.com
 
2013-06-30 03:36:23 AM

hubiestubert: The only thing you might want to do, is maybe dial back a bit on being a dick about it. Less dickishness is all folks are looking for. Judge all you want in private, but maybe remember back in gradeschool, when you got undressed in the locker room and folks giggled at your wang or your bewbs--or lack of them--and realize that yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing that you didn't like, and it's pretty much the same thing again, only writ a bit more public. All folks are asking is for you to be less of a douche.


Bravo.

Easier said than done though. Too bad it runs counter for people to want to actually change eachother, and there are those on any side of the many fences out there.

hardinparamedic: Because it does not work like that. Being a transgender is NOT the same thing as being homosexual. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with this. It's not some offbeat defense mechanism the mind comes up with to justify liking the same sex, or to try to fit into a female role in their society.


There are some that do fall into that as a rough category though.  That's why a "genuine" trans goes through so much counseling before they're covered and allowed surgeries, to make sure it is what is needed and right for them.  It'd be terrible to come off of an acid bender and find your parts mixed around a bit.

 No, it's not just being gay that does it.  But as noted just up a couple posts, variation does come out, some people have some serious mental issues, and treatment for them won't work like it does for others.  People of all orientations can fall into traps in thinking, or obsessions, or mental/physical trauma that can lead them into some very disturbing places making them think in just such a similar fashion.

People can falsely self identify as trans, and some of them may be better off actually treated for it anyhow.  You hint at it yourself right above that.  People can become severely messed up, or get worse over time because of other factors.

There is no limit really to the things that can go wrong with the brain or what it can fool itself into believing is real.

ciberido: itazurakko: If someone feels more comfortable in 2013 social world (where sadly gender policing is a thing) by getting various plastic surgery than so be it, I'm happy to live and let live and all that.  But stop it with the "oh, there's a 'female brain'" thing already.

First off, we're not going to "stop with" scientific research into how the brain work


It sounded to me like "Please stop giving excuses that sound like nonesense"  and they do, when crunched down into layman's terms. It didn't sound like "Please stop science"

 Best to find a good link, and link it.

I've seen almost as much misinformation on this side of the fense as conservatives spout on the the other.  I too wish it would stop.
/very pro science
//just anti- ignorant explanation
 
2013-06-30 03:38:50 AM

hardinparamedic: Bumblefark: Yeah, that's a pretty stunning critique, when it ends with the conclusion, "I have no idea how, or if, the brains of MtF transsexuals are 'feminized' but this study doesn't rule it out." And, certainly, a counter-point to be given equal weight as a peer-reviewed, scientific publication.

Yeah, because Discover Magazine is exactly the same as Natural News, and someone who is a well known skeptical blogger for neuroscience and psychiatry is the same thing as Mike Adams.

*eyeroll*

These findings provide new evidence that transsexualism is associated with distinct cerebral pattern, which supports the assumption that brain anatomy plays a role in gender identity.

These findings provide further evidence that brain anatomy is associated with gender identity, where measures in MTF transsexuals appear to be shifted away from gender-congruent men.


Oh noes...the eyeroll. The protest of upset 15 year old girls, everywhere. Somehow, I think I just might be able to survive this.

Neither of those quotes supports the claim (that you explicitly made) that the transgendered individual is has a mind of one gender, and the body of another. Which was the exact same point in the study you seem to not want to talk about anymore.

As a matter of fact, one source (at least), seems to contradict it.

Results revealed that regional gray matter variation in MTF transsexuals is more similar to the pattern found in men than in women.
 
2013-06-30 03:43:06 AM

Bumblefark: As a matter of fact, one source (at least), seems to contradict it.


You left out the rest of that statement.

i.imgur.com
 
2013-06-30 03:51:13 AM

Z-clipped: But by standing up to the bigot instead of hiding in the closet


I don't recommend backing down and staying in the closet, just to be clear.

I recommend not meeting them toe to toe and trading equal blows.  I reccomend a different strategy, a different game. That specific tactic can't win, going toe to toe like oldschool boxers that take turns hitting each other in the head just to see who falls down first.

It's like fighting an army of superior numbers.  If you go 1v1, you will lose, may not even slow them down much.

Eat away at their supply lines, run a positive PR campaign.  If the undecideds like your message better, if they see that you're not specifically mean to individuals, if they see that you reach out to them and can identify with them, that there are more important things in life, that if they stay out of the war they'll not be impacted at all, you'll do far better that way, if they understand that they may even benefit, then you're sure to win them over.

Replaying out Hatfields & Mccoys doesn't work.

It may strengthen your bonds as a group itself, help form a united front, but it can make you look just as bad as the opposition.  That's what people from the outside commonly see.  2 assholes yelling at eachother.  That outsider shrugs and goes back to his TV or WoW or Angry Birds.
 
2013-06-30 03:55:18 AM

hardinparamedic: Bumblefark: As a matter of fact, one source (at least), seems to contradict it.

You left out the rest of that statement.

[i.imgur.com image 703x319]


Eh...which sentence would you like to parse?

Note that neither one supports the claim you made. Is "larger volume of regional gray matter in the right putamen" characteristic of female brains? I personally don't know, but "larger volume" is usually associated with males, not females. The second sentence has nothing to do with our exchange -- I never argued that brain anatomy isn't involved.
 
2013-06-30 04:14:35 AM

omeganuepsilon: I recommend not meeting them toe to toe and trading equal blows.


When packs of trans people regularly accost, beat, and kill bigots on the street. we can talk about "trading equal blows", ok?

omeganuepsilon: run a positive PR campaign


What do you think Pride is?

omeganuepsilon: It may strengthen your bonds as a group itself, help form a united front, but it can make you look just as bad as the opposition.  That's what people from the outside commonly see.  2 assholes yelling at eachother.  That outsider shrugs and goes back to his TV or WoW or Angry Birds.


I think that for a person to look at a group like transpeople, who have been marginalized, ostracized, and generally spit upon by a large chunk of American society, walking down the street in a parade proclaiming pride in their identity and think "those people are just as bad as the bigots"... well, I think that person would have to be a pretty enormous asshole for starters.

ww3.hdnux.com

Seriously?  THIS is a negative display of pride, in your opinion?
 
2013-06-30 04:20:34 AM

hubiestubert: Nature tends to throw us curves all the time. Myself, I've got a whole extra vertebrae.


This is the most interesting thing that has been said in this thread.
 
2013-06-30 04:32:52 AM

Z-clipped: I think that for a person to look at a group like transpeople, who have been marginalized, ostracized, and generally spit upon by a large chunk of American society, walking down the street in a parade proclaiming pride in their identity and think "those people are just as bad as the bigots"... well, I think that person would have to be a pretty enormous asshole for starters.


Well, just look at them, all happy and stuff...not even caring for a moment that they make me feel all icky (and vaguely aroused) on my inside parts.

Those dirty, hateful motherfarkers...
 
2013-06-30 04:45:27 AM

spentshells: This surprises me, and I'm very serious in saying so. I'm frankly baffled.


well in my case I kinda get to cheat the very premise since I'm bi, so there's no thinking of gender and being found attractive as was suggested. But I've never thought in terms of my own gender being tied to my sexuality. Or vice versa. Indeed I figured out the gender side of things well before puberty and thinking of sexuality at all.
 
2013-06-30 05:00:03 AM

Z-clipped: What do you think Pride is?


If you're going to jump in mid conversation and be indignant, fark it, I'm not responding to any points you think you've made, obvious re-directs and straw men that they are.  Read all of my posts in the thread, comprehend them, then repost.  At that point you'll have a clue, I know you're a reasonable sort( I know specifically you will understand, because when you Boobiesed you said a lot of the same things I already said), and I won't then have a desire to shiat on your inept trolling replies.
 
2013-06-30 05:17:29 AM
 

omeganuepsilon: If you're going to jump in mid conversation and be indignant, fark it, I'm not responding to any points you think you've made, obvious re-directs and straw men that they are.  Read all of my posts in the thread, comprehend them, then repost.  At that point you'll have a clue, I know you're a reasonable sort( I know specifically you will understand, because when you Boobiesed you said a lot of the same things I already said), and I won't then have a desire to shiat on your inept trolling replies.


The majority of your posts in this thread are how it's either "pointless" to stand up to bigots and bullies - but if you have to, you should be nice about it and "take the moral high ground" or ignore them - even though speaking out against it makes you the bad guy "like them". Ignoring  of course, the real-world costs of silence and the suffering it causes not just transgender, but anyone who is not part of the "normal" status quo.

There is no point in being proud and accepting who you are, that's just arrogance.
Find common ground with people who find your very existence to be wicked and evil. You know, like Martin Luther King found common ground with racists - anything else is a stereotype.
A bigot is someone who "insults others" - making fun of them makes you the real bigot.
It's futile to stand up to bigots. It's not going to change anything.
Despite the fact they're doing exactly what I claim they're not, transgender organizations need to run a better "pr" campaign!

Seriously. These are ALL your posts. You protest standing up against people who view TG/TS individuals as less than human beings far too much for someone who claims to have no dog in this hunt.

And then, a whole lot of trash about "redirects" and "strawmen" when people have called you out over this. These are your own words, omega, in this thread. Nothing but excuses for why people should be complacent little victims for those who would take advantage and harm them.

And you wonder why someone would get annoyed with you?
 
2013-06-30 05:39:12 AM

alienated: mike_the_engineer: Sure it is.  Do you feel an overwhelming urge to chop off your penis?

For an engineer, you sure sound like an idiot.


I think he's a "sound engineer" which is an engineer like an interior decorator is an architect.
 
2013-06-30 06:11:15 AM

hardinparamedic: The majority of your posts in this thread are how it's either "pointless" to stand up to bigots and bullies


Grossly oversimplified and intentionally twisted straw man is grossly oversimplified and intentionally twisted.

The rest is more of the same, only with a lot more fabrication and separation from what I actually said.  You seek to twist what I said into what you think you can easily show as wrong, and then ridicule.
[The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. ]
Coupled with an attempt to curry favor with an Appeal to Spite.

Typical tricks of one who will not be swayed, the group that zclipped and I both talked about.  The last straw for those that cannot argue intellectually.  And no, I am not insulting you, I'm demonstrating how flawed and broken your supposed points are.

hardinparamedic: And you wonder why someone would get annoyed with you?


Not in your case, because you're a stalker with a hardon trying to get revenge for this and other threads where you are either proven wrong or otherwise made to feel like you need to get even.
 
2013-06-30 06:25:16 AM
Sometimes I think that some of the hate comes from people being jealous that someone else has either a)something to be proud about | or | b) have a community to be a member of.

I feel, with no proof or even support, just this feeling that a lot of people that would be around the center of that bell curve, on ANY social issue, feel themselves empty, or insubstantial. I am a white hetereosexual Native born male. In our modern digital society of everything being categorized and put into a pulldown menu or a radial button, I feel, and it very well could just be me, being my only test subject, that increased personal isolation makes one feel less relevant and diminishes our individuality and sense of worth. So If I, who doesn't get to check any boxes or pull-down any menus am more predisposed to be a dick, which i am not, my own emptiness feeding feelings of envy could act as a catalyst and push me a little bit towards thinking those people belong to something, I don't. I wish I belonged to something. But even though that is what occuring, it is much easier for me to not address these issues and just say "I hate it when those [insert pejorative] are alway making a big scene. Who do they think they are?

I think is for any group that has congregated for some public reason. Not to mention the volatile issue of sexuality and gender. I think, as a man, you have to honestly face yourself and ask yourself, and accept the answer, Am I gay? If you say yes, your gay, if no your not. But if that self confrontation isn't done honestly and fully, heterosexual men will have that little seed of insecurity which can grow if not weeded. And can become something that polarizes them even more of the issues of sexuality and gender. Which, in truth, should should be nothing that concerns them. But if they don't know for sure that they aren't gay, and this is most men imho, exposure to people that are declaring, proudly, that they ARE gay or transgendered or whatever can be a big threat to themselves. Seeing the group the viewer's own insecurites could arise and think "I think I'm not gay. pretty sure. maybe. ugh. but those people, they know they ARE gay (realizing of course, in a hetrosexual's mind gay kinda gets used as a blanket term for a wide, range of sexuality and gender issues) The man we are speaking of can't even address his own sexuality on the surface, he doesnt want to even question if he is or isnt gay, because there is a chance he might answer with a yes. So all of that anxiety if not addressed, can become fear and his self defence turns it to hate. And I believe this is what is called homophobia. So ad hominem attacks against people that have these issues, you just them for hate they display, are in a way a lazy way to make your life easier.

I am not saying that people being hateful are right. They are the antithesis of right. But they are almost programmed to hate, they themselves need it badly to help shore up, or ignore their own issues.

I guess my point is that NO ONE, isn't a beautiful and unique snowflake, but they we all are equally mind boggling complex creatures. That Nuclear family of the 50's even though they did nothing of significance, still experienced and had to deal with every second of their lives, and as no one has any previous experience of things they have not yet experienced, each moment is continually added to all of the previous moments in their specific life, creating the person that they are right now.

Or in other words, Everyone is continuously struggling, but some peoples issues are more visible, and those people aren't allowed the comfort to suffer in private. Their struggle is a visible one. So they have to suffer publicly.  And no matter what you think, no one would put themselves through all of that public pain and discomfort voluntarily. that the know can be seen, and also know other people will notice.

SO I guess like I said, because I am confident that I am the orientation and gender I am, people of other orientations and gender IDs don't threaten me, I have never dwelled on the subject long enough for it to be something that I hold any strong view on. I am me and all that entails, and others are themselves with all of their own unique details. We all are suffering, we are all in our own unique pain, waiting for some speck of happiness to distract for a little bit from our condition. The universal human condition. Think this is really how everyone is equal and the same. This is our first time living now, and the uncomfortable future that is unknown, is a little scary. So don't be a dick. Everyone can just barely deal with all their own incredibly detailed life. Don't be a vampire and feed your emptyness by increasing someone elses pain.


OR not.. this is just what came out of my head, stream of consciousness style when I asked myself, "What do you honestly think about all of this?" (and sleep deprivation has contributed significantly, im sure)
 
2013-06-30 06:36:21 AM
two more things.

1. I need to use spell check more diligently
2. I am not high.

really i'm not. no lie.

what is C A T really spelled dog?
 
2013-06-30 07:03:06 AM

Leishu: RKade: I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!" so I guess I'll just say...

Because, ultimately, the very diagnosis of transsexuality/transgender is that this mismatch between your body and gender is so distressing that the surgical modification to your body so that your outside comes that much closer to fitting what could be accurately called your residual self image (pulled from The Matrix, but operative and important here), in addition to hormone therapy, may be the only thing to alleviate that rather extreme distress. I don't know if it qualifies as "good enough" for you, but it happens to be true.

Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?

Strangely, it's still not considered a lesser crime in many states to kill somebody out of "cripple panic," and prosecution when people beat the shiat out of cripples on the streets isn't avoided by local conservative District Attorneys on grounds of their crippled status. As a matter of fact, in most cases, it's thought of as a more egregious crime, and "cripples" (which is an awful term) by law have many accommodations nearly universally to attempt to give them an equal shot at life. Whether those are adequate is a different discussion entirely. You will find that handicapable organizations and benefit societies often participate in other parades, including Pride, though, so in a way there is.

/Just had a friend come out to me as TG/about to start her transition.
//I have told her that I will be with her and support her every step of the way, because it is one hell of a hard process.


As a lifelong cripple, I find the word "handicapable" insulting and condescending. More to my original point though, being as disabled as I am is way worse then having gender identity issues and if you'd like to hash it out privately, I'd love to have a go because, as far as the "who got the worst lot in life" championship goes, me and mine are miles ahead of you and yours. Check my profile for my email.  I've got some fun stories about those organizations too and those who they "can't" help, too.
 
2013-06-30 07:23:57 AM

RKade: Leishu: RKade: I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!" so I guess I'll just say...

Because, ultimately, the very diagnosis of transsexuality/transgender is that this mismatch between your body and gender is so distressing that the surgical modification to your body so that your outside comes that much closer to fitting what could be accurately called your residual self image (pulled from The Matrix, but operative and important here), in addition to hormone therapy, may be the only thing to alleviate that rather extreme distress. I don't know if it qualifies as "good enough" for you, but it happens to be true.

Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?

Strangely, it's still not considered a lesser crime in many states to kill somebody out of "cripple panic," and prosecution when people beat the shiat out of cripples on the streets isn't avoided by local conservative District Attorneys on grounds of their crippled status. As a matter of fact, in most cases, it's thought of as a more egregious crime, and "cripples" (which is an awful term) by law have many accommodations nearly universally to attempt to give them an equal shot at life. Whether those are adequate is a different discussion entirely. You will find that handicapable organizations and benefit societies often participate in other parades, including Pride, though, so in a way there is.

/Just had a friend come out to me as TG/about to start her transition.
//I have told her that I will be with her and support her every step of the way, because it is one hell of a hard process.

As a lifelong cripple, I find the word "handicapable" insulting and condescending. More to my original point though, being as disabled as I am is way worse then having gender identity issues and if you'd like to hash it out privately, I'd love to have a go because, as far as the "who got the worst lot in life" championship goes, me and mine are miles ahead of you and yours. Check my profile for my email.  I've got some fun stories about those organizations too and those who they "can't" help, too.


Until today, I thought "handicapible" was only a word George Carlin created in a bit mocking the stupidity of PC jargon.
 
2013-06-30 08:10:01 AM

RKade: As a lifelong cripple, I find the word "handicapable" insulting and condescending. More to my original point though, being as disabled as I am is way worse then having gender identity issues and if you'd like to hash it out privately, I'd love to have a go because, as far as the "who got the worst lot in life" championship goes, me and mine are miles ahead of you and yours.


I don't support your sinful lifestyle choice. You did not have to join the crips, you chose to be that way.
 
2013-06-30 08:45:32 AM
You asked a question. I provided an accurate answer. You obviously have issues which drive you to make it personal. I apologize for using a tern you find offensive. I have heard the same about 'cripple' so I will try to find a better word. it is a shame that your status as one such individual seems to have eliminated your ability to conduct a civil, logical discussion, though. You have my sympathy.
 
2013-06-30 08:57:10 AM
Furthermore, Rkade, you seem to be under the impression that your hardship somehow invalidates the claim that Transgendered folk also go through hardship. if you are such a repugnant individual that you feel the need to make the horrid things that happen to people some sort of competition, I think I'll let the opportunity to learn more about you pass. You have already made it plain that your only interest is in argument by your own refusal to address my post with anything shortbof vitriol. I prefer to learn more about interesting, lively people, not spiteful douchebags.
 
2013-06-30 09:12:17 AM
I love threads like this because it gives me a chance to weed out the obvious trolls and bigots.
 
2013-06-30 09:23:54 AM

RKade: I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!" so I guess I'll just say...

Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?


You're looking at it.
 
2013-06-30 09:28:42 AM
Quantum Apostrophe:I think he's a "sound engineer" which is an engineer like an interior decorator is an architect.

What makes you say that?  Maybe I drive a train.
 
2013-06-30 09:50:08 AM

itazurakko: In a sense it's a theory of the mind problem.  You can't possibly know what it's like to be "the other sex" mentally or anything else. You know what it's like to be YOU.  I can completely buy that people have gender dysphoria and extreme discomfort with their own genitalia.  What I don't buy is that they "recognize" that they "think like" people who were born with female sex organs.  There's no possible way for them to know that.


itazurakko: As a born woman (with the usual female naughty bits), I'm curious.  Particularly given that I've not really matched any "you should do this and that because you're a girl" my entire life up to middle age, I'm very curious.  I've never "felt like" a woman per se, I'm told I'm a woman, end of story.



Precisely. For most people the body and mind are predominantly aligned, so they never have cause to seriously question their gender. You've never not "felt like" a woman. For trans people it's practically impossible to  not question their gender. As a result, those who are cisgender cannot understand what it's really like to be transgender, and those who are transgender cannot understand what it's really like to be cisgender.

As for the theory of the mind aspect, it isn't so binary. Say you're very young, growing up: you and others recognize that your thoughts and behaviors are atypical "for your gender." There are a lot of possibilities at this point. It could be that you're transsexual, it could be that you're just exploring gender in the way that children experiment and incorporate data into their psyche, it may be that you're homosexual (although I'm not sure that kind of thing is evident so early on), et cetera. In my opinion, the best approach for parents, doctors, and others is to take a conservative tack and try not to interfere or influence overmuch. The true situation--and proper diagnosis--should become evident before too long, and I'd venture that most of the time things will resolve themselves and you, the child in question, will turn out not to be transgender (because it's less common than the others).

Add into the mix the confusion that socialization can, erm, engender as one grows up and experiences life. The longer a transsexual person is perceived as and urged to present and behave as the "incorrect" gender, the less "normal" socialization he or she gets, regardless of whatever inherent physical brain differences there are. In this sense, socialization parallels the more apparent physiological changes of puberty. How comfortable would you be, itazurakko, had you been strongly encouraged or even forced to dress and act as a boy, and everyone treated you as such, no matter what you did or said? I daresay you wouldn't grow up feeling quite as well-adjusted and "normal" as you are now, and would have difficulty relating to other women who were socialized in a more typical way.

Above, I suggested that it's practically impossible for someone who's transgender to understand what it's really like to be cisgender, but perhaps if transition were (responsibly) effected early enough, the fallout from "the wrong puberty" and prolonged "improper socialization" would nearly eliminate that seemingly vast gulf. It certainly would minimize it.
 
2013-06-30 09:52:20 AM

omeganuepsilon: Shedim: omeganuepsilon: [cutting large chunk of text to save space and not annoy everyone else]

 counteract the shame that society aims
So how would you go about it?

I understand the purpose.  I'm just saying, that for every 3 steps forward, there are two steps back because of the delivery and public reception.  It would be better to simply take one step forward.

How would I go about it?  I wouldn't even change much.  The campaign's intent is admirable but the execution can be self somewhat self defeating.  A shift in PR is all.  Retiring terms that are problematic based on how others will inevitably perceive them due to their actual definitions(as explained about pride)

Awareness, acceptance, confidence, etc.  instead of pride, things of that nature.

If you want the enemy to accept you, or at least for their less indoctrinated to believe that less, do not give that stereotypical example.

MLK taught this in a way.  He separated himself from violence and supremacy and such, held it in contempt himself.  He didn't dress "white", he dressed professional, which is in reality a popular neutral sense of style and manner.  While he did have an accent, he didn't give into reveling in the slang and style of popular culture. He taught similarities and wrote off the differences asnegligible.

That is the key to acceptance.  Find that common ground,removes focus from the outliers, the radically different.  Same concepts on making friends on an individual level.  Get to know them and find the common ground, and begin doing things together.

Don't celebrate the differences, that imprints as victory and is also a challenge to the psyche of bigots.
Don't go reveling in and flaunting the flamboyant, that conveys superiority. Use their language and remain calm and confident.


All you've proven is that you don't know what pride parades are about.

They're not for the people who march in them and they're not for convincing bigots.
 
2013-06-30 09:53:42 AM

Orgasmatron138: I love threads like this because it gives me a chance to weed out the obvious trolls and bigots.



After years, I've finally started IGNORING some people, but am starting slowly. My only criterion at this point is if someone posts the South Park dolphin fin image. Was moved to do so when it appeared so late in the thread, after some genuine discussion had taken place.
 
2013-06-30 09:55:56 AM

hardinparamedic: So, what field of engineering are you in?


The one thing that every engineering discipline has in common is that it requires the rigorous application of facts and logic.  There is no room for emotion because at the end of the day, you have to produce a result in the real world.  By the way, if you ever want to get out of jury duty, just say you're an engineer.  We never get picked because lawyers know we aren't swayed by their weak "appeal to emotion" arguments.  So if Gender Dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder, it's a farking mental disorder.  It doesn't matter that people are offended or that you FEEL like it's wrong.  It is what it is.
 
2013-06-30 10:06:12 AM

mike_the_engineer: The one thing that every engineering discipline has in common is that it requires the rigorous application of facts and logic.  There is no room for emotion because at the end of the day, you have to produce a result in the real world.  By the way, if you ever want to get out of jury duty, just say you're an engineer.  We never get picked because lawyers know we aren't swayed by their weak "appeal to emotion" arguments.  So if Gender Dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder, it's a farking mental disorder.  It doesn't matter that people are offended or that you FEEL like it's wrong.  It is what it is.


You don't even know the basic definition of a "mental disorder", or the the difference between Gender Dysphora and Transgenderism. Hint: the later is NOT a mental disorder.

i.imgur.com

So what we have here is an engineer who is arguing the "rigorous application of facts and logic", yet is going against the very "facts and logic" he claims to require rigorous application to. In reality, you're an astoundingly stunning example of Dunning-Kruger, and just like many other people who a part of the engineering profession, you're pontificating on things you have no idea or qualification to pontificate on. Like I said. Next time I want a blue print drawn, or some electrical wiring run, I'll call you.

Next time I want information on mental health, I'll go to people who actually know what they're talking about.

Hint: When every legitimate medical body states that you're full of shiat, the overwhelming chance is that you're full of shiat.
 
2013-06-30 10:19:56 AM

hardinparamedic: Hint: When every legitimate medical body states that you're full of shiat, the overwhelming chance is that you're full of shiat.


[citation needed]
 
2013-06-30 10:23:58 AM

jso2897: Is it me, or is the quality of Fark trolling shiat-poor lately?


It's pretty poor. So bad that the other day I said that Lesbians could beparents the same way subsitute teachers are college professors, just to summon Le Trolls to bring their a game. Alas.
 
2013-06-30 10:32:24 AM

mike_the_engineer: hardinparamedic: So, what field of engineering are you in?

The one thing that every engineering discipline has in common is that it requires the rigorous application of facts and logic.  There is no room for emotion because at the end of the day, you have to produce a result in the real world.  By the way, if you ever want to get out of jury duty, just say you're an engineer.  We never get picked because lawyers know we aren't swayed by their weak "appeal to emotion" arguments.  So if Gender Dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder, it's a farking mental disorder.  It doesn't matter that people are offended or that you FEEL like it's wrong.  It is what it is.




Is that the explanation for why, relative to their level of education, there are a disproportionate number of creationists who have engineering degrees?
 
2013-06-30 10:51:11 AM

hardinparamedic: When every legitimate medical body states that you're full of shiat, the overwhelming chance is that you're full of shiat.


I'm not sure that you understood what you just read.  It's says that being transgendered is not necessarily a mental disorder, because certain people who identify as transgender are not distressed by it.  This is because the definition of "transgendered" has been broadened to include people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual... mostly just people who don't like the conventional labels.  So for example, a drag queen might identify as transgender.  He likes to dress and act like a woman, but he understands that he is biologically male.  This guy could be perfectly sane, and he is not who I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the "woman trapped in a man's body" people who actually believe that they are the opposite gender, and want reassignment surgery.  This is absolutely a mental disorder.  Saying that this is not a disorder doesn't even make sense.  You're saying, "I don't have a disorder, but I need treatment.  There is nothing wrong with me, but I need major surgery to fix it."  Bullshiat.

The source you just linked to references gender identity disorder, and explains that a diagnosis is necessary in order to get treatment.
 
2013-06-30 11:22:22 AM
There are those who believe transgenderism must be a mental disorder because it challenges our previous understanding and assumptions about gender and human development. Those assumptions were based on an incomplete understanding of gender and the human brain and development. Scientists continue to learn more about the brain every day and those discoveries are changing our fundamental understanding of how it works.

There will be those who resist change, especially to such a fundamental pillar of society and there will be those who embrace it. As evidenced in this thread there are a great many people who do not want to see the status quo changed, who don't see the point of it, are upset by the idea of it, and still others who are upset with the direction it's taking. Clearly this is a sensitive topic.

I'm left to ask this question; in the absence of concrete, solid proof do we make sweeping changes to society based on a gut feeling and intuition? I'm hesitant to say yes despite having a vested interest in seeing those changes. I know it's asking a lot and people need a little more to go on before they're going to be ok making the kind of changes trans people are asking for. That being said, the status quo is clearly causing a great deal of harm to a certain segment of the population and that can't be allowed to continue. We as a people need to do better and do right by others in our society.
 
2013-06-30 11:40:29 AM

Orgasmatron138: I love threads like this because it gives me a chance to weed out the obvious trolls and bigots.


I know I shouldn't have fallen for one but he looked like he might initially be sincere. Too bad. I'd love to hear a rational discussion of this from the "other side" some time. Maybe it's just asking too much.
 
2013-06-30 11:44:57 AM
TransPride sounds like a brand of margarine spread...
 
2013-06-30 11:54:14 AM
Also, mike_the_engineer,

The entry for gender dysphoria in the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual of Mental Disorders has undergone a number of revisions over the decades and continues to evolve. At one point shock therapy(basically torture) was considered a viable form of treatment for gender dysphoria. The medical field is not always so...enlightened...in their methods and there are a number of bigots who happen to have fancy medical degrees and an active dislike of trans people. Sometimes what you read says more about the prejudicial beliefs of those who wrote it than it does about the subject it pertains to.

Truth is we really don't know what causes transgenderism or how it really works. What we have is anecdotal evidence and a lot of unproven theories. They're good theories, the research is promising, but it's not proof. Some take this lack of proof as evidence there is none to be found(an incorrect assumption). Anyways, if the current literature is contradictory it's because we're still fumbling our way towards understanding, prejudicial bias and outdated ideas not withstanding.
 
2013-06-30 12:01:12 PM
*shrug*

This Navy Seal who now identifies as a woman seems pretty cool. And kind of hot. And pretty stable.

Sorry, on mobile device:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/03/navy-seal-team-6-soldier-come s -out-as-transgender-defying-stereotypes-of-gender-and-profession/
 
2013-06-30 12:15:10 PM

starsrift: All you've proven is that you don't know what pride parades are about.

They're not for the people who march in them and they're not for convincing bigots.


*sigh*

Another selective reader.

Z-clipped: Seriously?  THIS is a negative display of pride, in your opinion?


Seriously?  No.

The look exactly like what I was talking about.  I was discussing, from the beginning, the general problems society has with pride though.  If you would like to discuss those actual points I would love to hear your points on the topic.

This petty game of trading insults and defamation masked as pointed rhetorical questions though, I will not play.  I did not say or mean most of what was talked about in that last post by your or mr hardon.  I only gave what I got, and it was ultimately pointless I suppose, but that goes back to what I had posted earlier, the societal aspects of simply trading insults.

As point of interest that I want people to understand.

I fully support parades such as you pictured very family friendly looking people very obviously not looking to startle or upset the reactionary crowd.  This is exactly a sample of what I mean.

I was talking not necessarily about any given parade, but of theconcepts of public perception in general.

Ifully support people standing up for themselves. You can stand in the same spot and use the same loud voice, but when the words turn every bit as vehement or vitrolic(as per many in this thread) as all the other bigots, you convince as many for one side as you do for the other, it gets the typical John Stuart You'reNotHelping.jpg.

Maybe you need a different perspective to understand my point.
If all christians behaved as per the benevolent andcharitable priest able to hold a rational discussion, would you be more apt to listen to what they have to say, than if they were red faced bloated televisedevangelicals shouting and gesticulating and look as if they're about to burst a vein?

I'll grant you that many are taking that more benevolent path, but there are still those others in spades in any given movement.  This thread proves there are such people here on this website, that lash out and gesticulate and insult those they arbitrarily suspect are not genuine.  The tiniest question that even resembles criticism, not even an insult, but criticism, and it's like Pearl Harbor all over again.
 
2013-06-30 12:18:09 PM

omeganuepsilon: , the general problems society has with pride though.


I think I see what you are saying, but I respectfully disagree that society has a problem with these facets, in a general sense, any more. I believe it is more of a vocal minority that have problems with it. I do not have evidence to back this up. I may indeed be proven wrong, but it is my gut feeling.
 
2013-06-30 12:24:49 PM

megarian: *shrug*

This Navy Seal who now identifies as a woman seems pretty cool. And kind of hot. And pretty stable.

Sorry, on mobile device:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/03/navy-seal-team-6-soldier-com e s -out-as-transgender-defying-stereotypes-of-gender-and-profession/


De-gapped and linked for convenience
 
2013-06-30 12:29:04 PM

FloydA: megarian: *shrug*

This Navy Seal who now identifies as a woman seems pretty cool. And kind of hot. And pretty stable.

Sorry, on mobile device:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/03/navy-seal-team-6-soldier-com e s -out-as-transgender-defying-stereotypes-of-gender-and-profession/

De-gapped and linked for convenience


Why, thank you!
 
2013-06-30 12:30:23 PM

megarian: *shrug*

This Navy Seal who now identifies as a woman seems pretty cool. And kind of hot. And pretty stable.

Sorry, on mobile device:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/03/navy-seal-team-6-soldier-come s -out-as-transgender-defying-stereotypes-of-gender-and-profession/


They did an interview on CNN a month or so ago.  Pretty neat story iirc.  Polite, well spoken, good points, not inflammatory or outrageous, courageous even, on all aspects of character apparently.  CNN may be going down the shiatter in some ways(Piers Morgan replacing Larry King, the interviews turned into pulpits, and other party line toeing) I much prefer neutral news, cold and efficient delivery), but they're better in others.

There they sat, dressed like a woman and looking like a man dressed like a woman, and carried off more class than many of the people in these threads that are supposed allies.
 
2013-06-30 12:33:01 PM

Quantum Apostrophe: alienated: mike_the_engineer: Sure it is.  Do you feel an overwhelming urge to chop off your penis?

For an engineer, you sure sound like an idiot.

I think he's a "sound engineer" which is an engineer like an interior decorator is an architect.


As a sound engineer (among other things), I'd like to say you're wrong. You're wrong because those are too closely related.

A sound engineer is an engineer like a chef is an architect. They are simply unrelated in almost every way.

In general, it's why I actually dislike the term "Sound Engineer." "Audio Technician" (or "Audio Tech") for short, is more accurate. There are hard things we (the real ones) do, (and I'm really just an amateur. I barely scratch the surface) certainly, and they take work, practice, and education and are quite challenging, especially when you get into acoustic design, as I love to do, but my audio work has nothing to do with the practice of Engineering, in the specific sense, other than that there's a lot of math involved at any level and a decent amount of geometry, physics, and calculus involved at any level deserving of the title
 
2013-06-30 12:35:24 PM

runcible spork: How comfortable would you be, itazurakko, had you been strongly encouraged or even forced to dress and act as a boy, and everyone treated you as such, no matter what you did or said? I daresay you wouldn't grow up feeling quite as well-adjusted and "normal" as you are now, and would have difficulty relating to other women who were socialized in a more typical way.


What on earth are you on about?

I was distressed being told I had to "be a girl" and act like a girl.  I resisted that, caused me much strife in my younger life. I would have far rather been told to dress like a boy!  So no, I don't "feel like a woman" per se or "feel feminine" and neither do hordes of other women out there who are just as "lolwut?" about that whole thing as I am. We're just people.  Being told that "naturally" we will "want" to quit our jobs when we marry and have a baby is not something people were choosing or "identifying" with.  It was imposed (and people reject it all the time - I certainly did).

I haven't worn a dress since leaving the required school uniform behind, I get "misgendered" frequently, and yet... I'm a woman, because people tell me I am.  That's it, nothing more, to me.

My argument is that we should let people be themselves and act how they want, socialize with who they want, regardless of the shape of their bits, and stop being so obsessed about the two "matching" or not.

I get that people have gender dysphoria. If surgery to "fit in" better and make interactions in our imperfect world easier, party on. I have nothing against that.  I merely have a problem with the "born in the wrong body" rhetoric and the ways I see it being used around me.  I don't go around hating on the various trans people I have occasion to interact with - and yet I wouldn't go to them to vent or sympathize about various issues about growing up as a girl, either.

And obviously, it's the outliers who make news. But you've got kids now saying in 100% seriousness that "oh, today I'm a boy so you have to call me 'he' but sometimes I'm a girl, too - I'm genderfluid" or whatever it is, and I can't help but think what, really? You can't just have moods? If you're not the completely stereotype of what a woman is or feeling properly "submissive" or "nurturing" suddenly today you're a man?   They write long essays about it all over the internet and it's all ABOUT stereotypes, and matching them or not.  Quite frankly it's just depressing.  It's certainly not in any way transgressive.
 
2013-06-30 12:44:51 PM

omeganuepsilon: megarian: *shrug*

This Navy Seal who now identifies as a woman seems pretty cool. And kind of hot. And pretty stable.

Sorry, on mobile device:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/03/navy-seal-team-6-soldier-come s -out-as-transgender-defying-stereotypes-of-gender-and-profession/

They did an interview on CNN a month or so ago.  Pretty neat story iirc.  Polite, well spoken, good points, not inflammatory or outrageous, courageous even, on all aspects of character apparently.  CNN may be going down the shiatter in some ways(Piers Morgan replacing Larry King, the interviews turned into pulpits, and other party line toeing) I much prefer neutral news, cold and efficient delivery), but they're better in others.

There they sat, dressed like a woman and looking like a man dressed like a woman, and carried off more class than many of the people in these threads that are supposed allies.


I saw it, too. It was a pretty interesting interview and I think it offered a unique look at the issue. She was a freaking Navy Seal...that's about as manly as you can get. And she seemed well-adjusted, reasonable, and relatable. I really enjoyed the interview.

Except she did walk like a calf in those high heels. But so do I. :)
 
2013-06-30 12:45:25 PM

Leishu: omeganuepsilon: , the general problems society has with pride though.

I think I see what you are saying, but I respectfully disagree that society has a problem with these facets, in a general sense, any more. I believe it is more of a vocal minority that have problems with it. I do not have evidence to back this up. I may indeed be proven wrong, but it is my gut feeling.


Pride is what fuels groups like the Black Panthers and Westboro Baptists.  Vocal minorities, sure, but very much a detriment to society. In this case, pride begets animosity.

It also goes down to how we teach our children.  Most of them are taught that they are special and are turned into spoiled snowflakes because of it.  Rewarding existence and teaching entitlement based on that alone, is a detriment to society. In this case, pride begets complacency and unreasonable expectations of life in general.  The proverbial silver spoon.  It teaches that they don't need to earn anything, from goods to existence.

Yes, we have rights, and those that don't are still struggling for them, much the same way all of our rights were fought for, back to the origin of this country.  But because of vocal minorities, we're still struggling along sluggishly on some matters.  We not only have to earn, but maintain these rights, they are not without cost, just because we should have them.
 
2013-06-30 12:48:05 PM

itazurakko: runcible spork: How comfortable would you be, itazurakko, had you been strongly encouraged or even forced to dress and act as a boy, and everyone treated you as such, no matter what you did or said? I daresay you wouldn't grow up feeling quite as well-adjusted and "normal" as you are now, and would have difficulty relating to other women who were socialized in a more typical way.

What on earth are you on about?

I was distressed being told I had to "be a girl" and act like a girl.  I resisted that, caused me much strife in my younger life. I would have far rather been told to dress like a boy!  So no, I don't "feel like a woman" per se or "feel feminine" and neither do hordes of other women out there who are just as "lolwut?" about that whole thing as I am. We're just people.  Being told that "naturally" we will "want" to quit our jobs when we marry and have a baby is not something people were choosing or "identifying" with.  It was imposed (and people reject it all the time - I certainly did).

I haven't worn a dress since leaving the required school uniform behind, I get "misgendered" frequently, and yet... I'm a woman, because people tell me I am.  That's it, nothing more, to me.

My argument is that we should let people be themselves and act how they want, socialize with who they want, regardless of the shape of their bits, and stop being so obsessed about the two "matching" or not.

I get that people have gender dysphoria. If surgery to "fit in" better and make interactions in our imperfect world easier, party on. I have nothing against that.  I merely have a problem with the "born in the wrong body" rhetoric and the ways I see it being used around me.  I don't go around hating on the various trans people I have occasion to interact with - and yet I wouldn't go to them to vent or sympathize about various issues about growing up as a girl, either.

And obviously, it's the outliers who make news. But you've got kids now saying in 100% seriousness that "oh, today ...



I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Almost completely.
 
2013-06-30 12:50:52 PM

megarian: Except she did walk like a calf in those high heels. But so do I. :)


Combat boots for years will lead to that.  I could hardly wear normal shoes once I left the military, nevermind heels. Had a tendency to high step because of the weight difference.

/still prefer heavy footwear
 
2013-06-30 12:52:04 PM

runcible spork: I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Almost completely.


Perhaps we're even, then.

I'm out, for now.
 
2013-06-30 12:56:19 PM
Me faping hand is confused...
 
2013-06-30 12:59:55 PM
fudge packers and carpet munchers are ruining this country.
 
2013-06-30 01:01:10 PM

nyrB: For me it's simple:


Yes, but nobody cares about what it's like for you.
 
2013-06-30 01:04:36 PM

itazurakko: I merely have a problem with the "born in the wrong body" rhetoric and the ways I see it being used around me.


FYI: It is a real condition with real science backing it, the mis-matching parts thing.

Granted, some of your individual experiences may be akin to something like aspergers or something, in that people wrongly self diagnose for the attention/status/impression of intelligence despite actions.  But it is not only rhetoric on scale, the problem is real as can be exampled in medical journals.

That is why people find you offensive.  You seem to be denying science based on your limited experiences.  And even when it comes to your limited anecdotal experience, if you're not trained / educated in the field, you really have no way of knowing if you have an accurate grasp of that individual's circumstances.  You seem to be making absolute(and and certainly wrong) claims in a field that you know relatively nothing about, based on your personal feelings of the topic and nothing else.
 
2013-06-30 01:12:44 PM

omeganuepsilon: megarian: Except she did walk like a calf in those high heels. But so do I. :)

Combat boots for years will lead to that.  I could hardly wear normal shoes once I left the military, nevermind heels. Had a tendency to high step because of the weight difference.

/still prefer heavy footwear


Well, that explains why my goth phase lead to me walking like a calf in stilettos. For some reason, if I drink a lot, I walk fine in heels.

/at least I think I do

Seriously, that actually kind of explains why she walks like that. Getting comfy in heels takes at least a decade of practice...especially transitioning from combat boots.
 
2013-06-30 01:22:17 PM

omeganuepsilon: itazurakko: I merely have a problem with the "born in the wrong body" rhetoric and the ways I see it being used around me.

FYI: It is a real condition with real science backing it, the mis-matching parts thing.

Granted, some of your individual experiences may be akin to something like aspergers or something, in that people wrongly self diagnose for the attention/status/impression of intelligence despite actions.  But it is not only rhetoric on scale, the problem is real as can be exampled in medical journals.

That is why people find you offensive.  You seem to be denying science based on your limited experiences.  And even when it comes to your limited anecdotal experience, if you're not trained / educated in the field, you really have no way of knowing if you have an accurate grasp of that individual's circumstances.  You seem to be making absolute(and and certainly wrong) claims in a field that you know relatively nothing about, based on your personal feelings of the topic and nothing else.


That is the thing isn't it? Trans folks aren't all the same. They don't come to it for the same reasons. It's hardly a black and white issue. For some it IS some psychological damage. For some it's chemical. For some it's a combination of issues. For some it is a matter of identity. Transvestites, transgender, it's a whole nest of things that aren't the same for everyone. And that is hard for some folks, who prefer easy answers, and black and white issues, that are clearly delineated, because thinking and considering is hard work, and people want convenience in issues, as opposed to taking the time to understand them, even a little.

A lot of folks just want pat answers. They want "they're just sick" to be the magic bullet, and then have another to "cure" folks. Easier than thinking, and America has long been hard on thinking...
 
2013-06-30 01:51:15 PM

hubiestubert: That is the thing isn't it?


Ayup.  That's why I try to explain, where I can, to at least deliver the concept of a thing if not the details.  I'm as faulty as anyone for having a preconceived notion, and have asked questions in the past, and have come across some very neat and well thought out answers.

The problem, more and more on fark, is sifting through the BS.  Rational conversation used to be much easier to come by.
 
2013-06-30 01:58:34 PM

omeganuepsilon: You can stand in the same spot and use the same loud voice, but when the words turn every bit as vehement or vitrolic(as per many in this thread) as all the other bigots


You've thoroughly confused me.  All I was doing was trying to explain the purpose and positive value of Pride to you, since you seemed not to understand it, and were obviously trying to paint it as a negative.

I don't see any part of the LGBTQ movement as crossing into the territory you're describing, and moreover, I think the assumptions you're making about "people in general", and their feelings about Pride are unsupported.  Where are all of these legions of people who are open-minded, but are put off of supporting gays or trans people by the Pride movement?  I've certainly never seen them.

omeganuepsilon: Pride is what fuels groups like the Black Panthers and Westboro Baptists.


It absolutely is not.  Those groups act upon their own volition.  Pride is very simply a statement of existence.  "We're here.  Get used to it".  If you want to deem the stance "I exist" as "too aggressive for some people", I think you should reconsider the rationality of the position you're advancing.

omeganuepsilon: It also goes down to how we teach our children.  Most of them are taught that they are special and are turned into spoiled snowflakes because of it.  Rewarding existence and teaching entitlement based on that alone, is a detriment to society. In this case, pride begets complacency and unreasonable expectations of life in general.  The proverbial silver spoon.  It teaches that they don't need to earn anything, from goods to existence.


Look, I'm as annoyed by some of the recent trends in parenting as anybody, but with all due respect, applying this to the concept embodied by Pride is completely preposterous.  This may seem like a reasonable philosophical comparison to you, but it's childish and belies a complete misunderstanding of everything the people in that picture I posted are marching for.

omeganuepsilon: But because of vocal minorities, we're still struggling along sluggishly on some matters.


I also disagree with this idea.  Stonewall happened just before I was born.  Up until just 10 years ago having sex was still a crime for gays in some places. In my lifetime, I've seen gays face incredible social opposition, come out of the closet in the grand sense, become mainstream cultural icons, and make enormous strides toward acceptance and equality.  I'm actually continually amazed and delighted at how far and how quickly their movement has carried them, especially if you look at history with any kind of perspective.

omeganuepsilon: We not only have to earn, but maintain these rights, they are not without cost, just because we should have them.


We earn privileges.

Listen, I'm not trying to troll you, or insult you, or score little debate points here.  I know you're making a nuanced argument, but I'm trying to tell you that the foundational ideas you're starting from are flawed.  LGBTQ Pride is not about "I'm special".  It's not about "You bigots suck for not accepting me."  Are some LGBTQ people mad about what society has put them through?  Of course.  But Pride is about reaffirming positive self-worth, and doing it in the faces of people who hate you, so that you can't be ignored, and so that others like you can see that they don't have to hide.  It's working out pretty darn well for gays and lesbians, so I don't think trans people are amiss if they follow the same plan of action.
 
2013-06-30 02:14:40 PM

itazurakko: But what I meant by the gay stuff is... often one of the things that people self-reporting that they think they might be trans is, they are attracted to people of the same sex.  Assuming they're het (as the default) they jump to "okay maybe I'm a girl in a boy's body because I like boys and I want them to like me like I'm their girlfriend").


Tell that to my coworker who married a woman, then became a woman. She's still happily married.
 
2013-06-30 02:14:54 PM

RKade: Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?


Chicago has one, started a few years back.
 
2013-06-30 02:23:29 PM

WhyteRaven74: RKade: Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?

Chicago has one, started a few years back.


Hey, the Shriners are more than just that...

/Hell
//One plz
 
2013-06-30 02:26:05 PM

hubiestubert: Hey, the Shriners are more than just that...


*golf clap*
 
2013-06-30 02:41:04 PM

Z-clipped: omeganuepsilon: Pride is what fuels groups like the Black Panthers and Westboro Baptists.

It absolutely is not.  Those groups act upon their own volition.  Pride is very simply a statement of existence.  "We're here.  Get used to it".  If you want to deem the stance "I exist" as "too aggressive for some people", I think you should reconsider the rationality of the position you're advancing.


Pride, as a word, has many negative connotations and synonyms that people will inevitably tie to it.

Z-clipped: LGBTQ Pride is not about "I'm special".


I know, but it's commonly perceived that way.  People at large are bound to equivocated it with things like arrogance and conceit. It is not even conscious on their part, they just see it as "uppiity" because that's the common word association.

You could, by simply substituting the word, circumvent that inevitable reaction in some.  If you chose the right terminology you could gain all the positive aspects of pride, the reinforced confidence and all the other things that you want to attribute to pride, but without all of the negative aspects.

To illustrate the point, here are the synonyms for pride from thesaurus.com(truncated as it is). I will highlight(bold) the obviously negative connotations that are commonly tied with it, or that share similar aspects of being highly equivocated by the populace at large(underline).

Pride(self esteem)
amour-propre, delight, dignity, ego, ego trip, egoism, egotism, face, gratification, happiness, honor, joy, pleasure, pridefulness, repletion, satisfaction, self-admiration, self-confidence, self-glorification, self-love, self-regard, self-respect, self-satisfaction, self-sufficiency, self-trust, self-worth, sufficiency

Also commonly understood as(off the top of my head) arrogance, conceit, etc.

Now, some other word alternatives:

Self confidence:
     aplomb, inner strength, positive self-image, self-assuranceCourage:adventuresomeness, adventurousness, audacity, backbone, bravery, bravura, daring, dash, dauntlessness, determination, endurance, enterprise, fearlessness, firmness, fortitude, gallantry, gameness, grit, guts, hardihood, heroism, intrepidity, lion-heartedness, mettle, nerve, pluck, power, prowess, pugnacity, rashness, recklessness, resolution, spirit, spunk, stoutheartedness, temerity, tenacity, valor, venturesomeness,

Z-clipped: Listen, I'm not trying to troll you, or insult you, or score little debate points here.  I know you're making a nuanced argument


Much appreciated.  It is just a quibbling point, we're only on fark after all, but there is some merit in the idea of presenting an image that lacks a handhold for those that would argue against it.  This is why politicians have PR people and advisors, to mitigate or nullify what the opponent has to work with.

Z-clipped: omeganuepsilon: We not only have to earn, but maintain these rights, they are not without cost, just because we should have them.

We earn privileges.


We earn everything. The rights we currently have, and are fighting for(ie gay marriage), may be granted in part today, but they were paid for dearly in the past.Even now, some in the government and politics in general, there is an effort to countermand some of the very large ones.  Gun control, unreasonable search and seizure, freedom of and from religion, etc.  There is constant back and forth to keep these things as protected and valid as they ever were, as some are always trying to limit or put restrictions on them.People have to fight and keep the powers that be in check or those go away eventually, history has proven that time and time again.
 
2013-06-30 02:43:44 PM
wow, fark ate a few of my line brakes
I'd fix but it'd take a lot more room, sorry
 
2013-06-30 02:47:22 PM

omeganuepsilon: wow, fark ate a few of my line brakes


Fark cut your brake lines? Give me a break!
 
2013-06-30 03:06:24 PM

Quantum Apostrophe: omeganuepsilon: wow, fark ate a few of my line brakes

Fark cut your brake lines? Give me a break!


Yeah, I had my doubts for a microsecond but the laptop battery warning was threatening to cut me off.
/beautiful day out, its a shame I had to step inside to plug it in
 
2013-06-30 03:13:12 PM

omeganuepsilon: Pride, as a word, has many negative connotations and synonyms that people will inevitably tie to it.


The kind of people who will jump to paint Pride as negative because of its name are pretty irrelevant to its purpose.  They're of the same ilk who complain that there's no White History Month.

omeganuepsilon: You could, by simply substituting the word, circumvent that inevitable reaction in some.


You might perhapsin some tiny number, but you'd also lose the vast internal positivism that the name engenders in its participants, which is integral to the goal of Pride.  There's absolutely nothing wrong or negative about a group of people taking pride in who they are when they've been systematically told by a society that who they are makes them less than other people.  I would hazard that this is ESPECIALLY pertinent for trans people who suffer from gender dysphoria, as they face such an overwhelming internal struggle with self-worth as it is.  If a few feathers get ruffled because the word "Pride" is a little uppity, I think the movement can probably live with that, since those are feathers that get ruffled by mosquito farts.

I get the feeling that your argument boils down to "if trans people were all perfectly positively aligned in their actions, and their movement were perfectly unified in its messaging, they'd get to their goal faster."  This is, of course, true.  But I don't think I need to point out the obvious problem with it.

omeganuepsilon: We earn everything. The rights we currently have, and are fighting for(ie gay marriage), may be granted in part today, but they were paid for dearly in the past.Even now, some in the government and politics in general, there is an effort to countermand some of the very large ones.  Gun control, unreasonable search and seizure, freedom of and from religion, etc.  There is constant back and forth to keep these things as protected and valid as they ever were, as some are always trying to limit or put restrictions on them.People have to fight and keep the powers that be in check or those go away eventually, history has proven that time and time again.


Fair enough.  But I'll reiterate that if Gay Pride had any hand in the progress of gay equality, trans people have chosen the best path to their goal that history has to offer, as far as I'm aware.  If you think you can meaningfully improve their tactics- and I mean this with no snark implied whatsoever- perhaps you should write them a letter.  Just be sure- ok, a little snark here- to post the reply you get so we can all read it.
 
2013-06-30 03:39:50 PM

Z-clipped: omeganuepsilon: Pride, as a word, has many negative connotations and synonyms that people will inevitably tie to it.

The kind of people who will jump to paint Pride as negative because of its name are pretty irrelevant to its purpose.  They're of the same ilk who complain that there's no White History Month.


Pride marches are to show that folks value themselves, and their community. Especially when for a long while, folks have tried to make their very identity, their sexuality, their very existence something to be ashamed of.

omeganuepsilon: We earn everything. The rights we currently have, and are fighting for(ie gay marriage), may be granted in part today, but they were paid for dearly in the past.Even now, some in the government and politics in general, there is an effort to countermand some of the very large ones.  Gun control, unreasonable search and seizure, freedom of and from religion, etc.  There is constant back and forth to keep these things as protected and valid as they ever were, as some are always trying to limit or put restrictions on them.People have to fight and keep the powers that be in check or those go away eventually, history has proven that time and time again.

This IS part of that struggle. If anything, it's an affirmation that folks are organized, that they have supporters who AREN'T LGB as well. Pride marches show not just that folks are proud of their identity, but that their families, their friends are likewise proud to know them. To acknowledge their struggle, and make it a positive. I'm a straight male, and I attend Pride Marches, because I have LGBT friends. Folks who might as well be family. I am proud that they are standing up for the radical notion, that they are people. Different perhaps than some, but then again, I'm Irish-German and Japanese--how many Kraut-Mick-Nips you find at a mixer? I'm proud of them not hiding, to say, "Hey, I'm here, and I'm OK with you not understanding, but I'm not going to pretend that I'm different." And different ain't always a bad thing.

Pride Parades are more than just about the folks in the streets, but the pride of the folks who stand with them. Who are their chosen family. Pride Parades assert the radical notion that being ashamed of who you are is not the default position if you are different. Does it confuse some folks? Good. Then let them be confused for a bit, because silence and hiding doesn't educate. Pretending to be a stereotype doesn't educate. It doesn't lead to any good places. Is there some outrageousness at some events? Yup. Because for so many years, folks wanted folks to keep quiet, sit down, shut up, and keep their sh*t behind closed doors. Doors are opening. Folks are out, they're not hiding, and that is good thing. Trans folks still see violence. They still see confusion and discrimination, but little by little it's getting better. Because folks are beginning to see them NOT as just drag queens or men in dresses, or very butch women, but as people. Varied. Different. Coming from all walks of life, and with myriad stories behind them.

You know what LGBT folks want? Most of all? To live, to be normal, to love who they want, to be themselves. That is the radical notion behind Pride Parades. To just be themselves. And if some folks have issue with that, then that is their issue.
 
2013-06-30 03:46:13 PM
cdn.buzznet.com
 
2013-06-30 03:50:00 PM

toyotaboy:


Alright, kinda hot and confusing.

Well, not that confusing. Getting the right shoes would be confusing.
 
2013-06-30 04:08:21 PM

Z-clipped: If a few feathers get ruffled because the word "Pride" is a little uppity, I think the movement can probably live with that, since those are feathers that get ruffled by mosquito farts.


Obviously, as we are still making progress.

However, the offshoot groups still get their people from means other than indoctrination.  The less they have to gravitate towards, the better.

Z-clipped: If you think you can meaningfully improve their tactics


Oh, I don't.  There are plenty of politically involved activists that do follow a lot of the idea's I put forth here already.  I just wanted to bring the idea's up as thinking material.

I've heard it stated on fark that wearing a suit and tie or other business attire as "dressing straight", as well as in other threads as "dressing white".  There are obviously people about that do think that way, and I felt like stirring the discussion a little bit with the concepts and reasoning.

How we represent ourselves is crucial to our success, and a little nuance here and there can have a phenomenal impact. Like any job interview, you don't want to go in with a certain appearance(shaved, showered, clean clothes, no ICP t-shirts, etc) about you and use poop jokes to impress them.

The tiniest thing can turn people off from you.  We're bred, evolutionarily speaking, to be prejudice, keep our numbers low but tightly knit.  In a society this large and diverse, any opportunity to examine ourselves and the way we may be perceived by others, is a good thing, imo.  The more we examine why we do X, and why someone may do Y, the better off we'll be.  It allows empathy to grow, it helps find common ground and write off those differences that we dwell upon.

Not sure if you commented above, but someone called me out by suggesting that was a heineous suggestion, that we attempt to identify with them.

Of course, it was a terrible misswording.  The goal is to get them to identify with us, to alleviate some of that suspicion.  Studies show that children raised with racial variety are less racist.  Same principle.

If we want to be accepted, we need to acclimate them.  To acclimate them, we need to be able to get close and be around them in a way they are comfortable with.  To make them comfortable we need to nullify some of the inherent and misguided prejudice. We do that by showing them that we're not so different, that what they're focusing on isn't all that important, but negligible.

If you want to teach, you don't actively attempt to berate and fail the children.  You nurture and explain.  with children with anger issues, you do it as gently as possible, you ease them into it, and not in a way that makes them feel stupid.  You effectively need to teach them to think, to use reason and logic.

Sure, some obviously are not worth the time, but many are.  I was not suggesting we not stand up for ourselves, but that some can be reasoned with.  Often, some of these people become some of the most rabid defenders.

I'd wager a bit of money that some people in this very thread used to hold prejudices.  They may have still been that way today if people hadn't reasoned with them on a more individual level, taken the time to explain something, instead of just insulting them and stirring the pot of anger and prejudice.

I should know what it's like, I'm one of those people.  Over the years I have learned a LOT from other farkers.  Viewpoints and perspectives that I would never have known had it not been for them.  This is a unique forum in that it goes beyond a melting pot, a very cerebral mix of not just people, but of idea's.  The varying topics, the multitude of personalities within each topic, the life stories shared and the information exchanged in a very casual and often lighthearted manner.

I often complain that it's worse now than ever, the price of popularity, but I do like to attempt to pay it forward, to answer people who may have genuine questions or confusion.  I've been written off and insulted myself as a troll for asking such a question, when all I wanted was to try to wrap my head around it.  It's a shiatty thing to do, in my opinion. And that's part of why I have explained to some above what I could, where others were certainly more inflamatory.

*shrugs*

As I said, its a beautiful day out, and I've got some things to go do.  You don't need to reply, just trying to explain myself a bit further so you understand where I'm coming from. I'm not in here to troll or to split hairs or to insult other people. I simply want to share ideas and concepts that often sadly fall by the wayside in favor of the current flavor of outrage.
 
2013-06-30 04:11:08 PM

toyotaboy: [cdn.buzznet.com image 580x383]


i105.photobucket.com
I have the weirdest boner right now.
 
2013-06-30 05:50:50 PM
Its funny how 3 people in this thread, all of whom I already had marked as "pro-Israeli bullies and shills" are all coming out hard against Transgendered people. Its almost as though a bully in one context remains a bully in another. Remarkable find.
 
2013-06-30 06:16:49 PM

Generation_D: Its funny how 3 people in this thread, all of whom I already had marked as "pro-Israeli bullies and shills" are all coming out hard against Transgendered people. Its almost as though a bully in one context remains a bully in another. Remarkable find.


You don't say?
 
2013-06-30 06:29:31 PM

hardinparamedic: RKade: As a lifelong cripple, I find the word "handicapable" insulting and condescending. More to my original point though, being as disabled as I am is way worse then having gender identity issues and if you'd like to hash it out privately, I'd love to have a go because, as far as the "who got the worst lot in life" championship goes, me and mine are miles ahead of you and yours.

I don't support your sinful lifestyle choice. You did not have to join the crips, you chose to be that way.


Hey! Even I saw what you did there!
 
2013-06-30 07:01:20 PM

Generation_D: Its funny how 3 people in this thread, all of whom I already had marked as "pro-Israeli bullies and shills" are all coming out hard against Transgendered people. Its almost as though a bully in one context remains a bully in another. Remarkable find.


I know.  It's as if all rational people are naturally coming to the same conclusions about things... like... "blowing up jews is bad"... or... "people with penises are male".  It's crazy!  Almost as crazy as the left's subconscious decision to always support the out group.
 
2013-06-30 07:10:44 PM

Generation_D: Its funny how 3 people in this thread, all of whom I already had marked as "pro-Israeli bullies and shills" are all coming out hard against Transgendered people. Its almost as though a bully in one context remains a bully in another. Remarkable find.


thisismyshockedface.jpg
 
2013-06-30 07:26:07 PM
I have no clue if TG's are "natural" or whatever but it does seem to me that maybe what some consider to be normal are really just issues they should fight to overcome.  Okay so it seems studies of their brains so this is natural behavior and everyone must embrace and accept their lifestyle.

okay but what do we do when we find out the pedo's brain is wired to naturally like kids, the sadistic animal abuser brain is different and abusing animals is normal or well you feel free to come up with your own
 
2013-06-30 07:58:04 PM

Waldo Pepper: everyone must embrace and accept their lifestyle.


Not a fan of that sentiment, though it does go around.  I'll tolerate any number of things and still be civil/courteous to people, but I will not embrace or accept those which I don't like.  You can't legislate how people feel, only how they act.

As for the rest of the post, you'll have to figure out how treating people based on actions and not feeling applies.  I do not have the patience to explain it to you.
 
2013-06-30 08:41:13 PM

Waldo Pepper: I have no clue if TG's are "natural" or whatever



I assure you, they weren't created in a lab.

Obviously, since God is omnipotent and can do, or avoid doing, anything He wishes, and since trans people exist, God wants them to exists.  Or do you figure that maybe God is incompetent and didn't know what he was doing when he made them? I'd really like to hear that explanation.  Please tell me how and why did God fark up and accidentally make people who make you feel uncomfortable.  Where, exactly, did God go wrong?

Your only options at this point are to
A) agree that God made trans people on purpose, in which case, they're OK
B) Agree that God made trans people on purpose, but He shouldn't have, in which case God is a fark-up who doesn't live up to your standards
C) Admit that God made trans people by accident, in which case God is a fark-up who doesn't live up to your standards, or
D) Admit that "God" is make believe and it's all in your head.

Trans people exist, so which of those four options is correct?

I recommend that you think before replying.
 
2013-06-30 09:06:21 PM

FloydA: Waldo Pepper: I have no clue if TG's are "natural" or whatever


I assure you, they weren't created in a lab.

Obviously, since God is omnipotent and can do, or avoid doing, anything He wishes, and since trans people exist, God wants them to exists.  Or do you figure that maybe God is incompetent and didn't know what he was doing when he made them? I'd really like to hear that explanation.  Please tell me how and why did God fark up and accidentally make people who make you feel uncomfortable.  Where, exactly, did God go wrong?

Your only options at this point are to
A) agree that God made trans people on purpose, in which case, they're OK
B) Agree that God made trans people on purpose, but He shouldn't have, in which case God is a fark-up who doesn't live up to your standards
C) Admit that God made trans people by accident, in which case God is a fark-up who doesn't live up to your standards, or
D) Admit that "God" is make believe and it's all in your head.

Trans people exist, so which of those four options is correct?

I recommend that you think before replying.


I never claimed that TG don't exist. I simply stated that I don't know if TG's are natural or something else is going on with them, I feel this is a fair assessment and one that quite a lot of people share regardless of their religious belief or non belief.

my point is what if we find out that a lot of anti social or wrong behaviors show up as differences in the brain from birth, do we then start to allow these behaviors as the person is born to be that way.

This is a valid concern.

I honestly have no issues with TG's and when ive had customers that are TG I've treated them with the utmost respect as i do all customers.  Try that with a TG who wears a men's size 12 and wants to try on a ladies size 10 running shoe (converts to a men's 8 1/2), couldn't make it fit but I did find a men's running shoe that was fem enough for her.

I won't address your silly questions about God as God is not limited to the what you are capable of understanding
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2013-06-30 09:23:03 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: /Feel free to post more, my tranny folder is not complete


forums.aaca.org

What a tranny might look like.  : )
 
2013-06-30 09:28:55 PM
RKade:Hey! Even I saw what you did there!

I salute your sense of humor, sir. I'll also wear blue in honor!

mike_the_engineer:I know.  It's as if all rational people are naturally coming to the same conclusions about things... like... "blowing up jews is bad"... or... "people with penises are male".  It's crazy!  Almost as crazy as the left's subconscious decision to always support the out group.

You use that word "rational". I don't think you know what it means.

I also know you never took any kind of biological science other than "Earth Science" if you think that primary sexual characteristics define gender.

You might start with all the horror stories of intersexed and ambiguous genitalia infants who were assigned the wrong gender based on what the chromosomal analysis came back as. There's a reason that they wait until age two or three, provided there are no urogenital abnormalities which endanger an infant's life, to assign a gender in these patients.

But given your cry of "I'm an engineer, I KNOW WITHOUT EMOTION!" through this thread, despite basing arguments on absolutely no science or even being able to grasp the plainly posted diagnostic caveats of "Mental Disorders" on the DSM-IV-TR/DSM-V - but rather emotion and your own personal, irrational felings, I highly doubt you'll even research it beyond your narrow and shallow grasp of human psychology and mental health.
 
2013-06-30 09:38:47 PM
so TG males is just a matter of them wanting their cock and be Edith too?

sorry i know very lame attempt at a joke lol
 
2013-07-01 01:02:57 AM
hardinparamedic: I also know you never took any kind of biological science other than "Earth Science" if you think that primary sexual characteristics define gender.

Biological science only cares about gender in the context of reproduction.  And for that purpose, gender is defined SOLELY by your reproductive characteristics.

You might start with all the horror stories of intersexed and ambiguous genitalia infants who were assigned the wrong gender based on what the chromosomal analysis came back as.

That's a birth defect, not a mental disorder.  Those people have an extra chromosome.

despite basing arguments on absolutely no science or even being able to grasp the plainly posted diagnostic caveats of "Mental Disorders" on the DSM-IV-TR/DSM-V

No science?  Are you farking kidding me?  DSM-4 and DSM-5 are pretty clear that this is a mental disorder.  In fact, the current definition,  according to DSM-5, is...  "strong desires to be treated as the other gender or to be rid of one's sex characteristics, or a strong conviction that one has feelings and reactions typical of the other gender"... which is exactly what the fark I've been telling you.  If you want to cut your penis off, YOU HAVE A MENTAL DISORDER.


i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-01 01:14:42 AM

mike_the_engineer: If you want to cut your penis off, YOU HAVE A MENTAL DISORDER.


What I find entertaining, is that so many want it to not be classified as a disorder.

But if it is classified as a disorder, many qualify through insurance, to get the help that they need, so campaigning to get it removed from the DSM would be a direct detriment to some that need it.

Some people I will just never understand.
 
2013-07-01 01:56:53 AM

Waldo Pepper: okay but what do we do when we find out the pedo's brain is wired to naturally like kids, the sadistic animal abuser brain is different and abusing animals is normal or well you feel free to come up with your own


Many of them specifically request pharmacological drugs that inhibit the sex drive, also referred to as "chemical castration."

Until science invents a pre-pubesent sex robot, pedophilia is not a parasexuality that can engaged in consensually, something that most people with the condition recognize themselves.
 
2013-07-01 01:58:55 AM

mike_the_engineer: hardinparamedic: I also know you never took any kind of biological science other than "Earth Science" if you think that primary sexual characteristics define gender.

Biological science only cares about gender in the context of reproduction.  And for that purpose, gender is defined SOLELY by your reproductive characteristics.

You might start with all the horror stories of intersexed and ambiguous genitalia infants who were assigned the wrong gender based on what the chromosomal analysis came back as.

That's a birth defect, not a mental disorder.  Those people have an extra chromosome.

despite basing arguments on absolutely no science or even being able to grasp the plainly posted diagnostic caveats of "Mental Disorders" on the DSM-IV-TR/DSM-V

No science?  Are you farking kidding me?  DSM-4 and DSM-5 are pretty clear that this is a mental disorder.  In fact, the current definition,  according to DSM-5, is...  "strong desires to be treated as the other gender or to be rid of one's sex characteristics, or a strong conviction that one has feelings and reactions typical of the other gender"... which is exactly what the fark I've been telling you.  If you want to cut your penis off, YOU HAVE A MENTAL DISORDER.


[i.imgur.com image 549x362]


Sir, there are literally entire libraries written about the things you don't know.
 
2013-07-01 03:34:05 AM

mike_the_engineer: If you want to cut your penis off, YOU HAVE A MENTAL DISORDER


Except of course, they dont do that. I know- facts are not your strong suit, but you could read a bit about grs/ srs before opening your mouth ( or typing, in this case )
 
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