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(SeattlePI)   Seattle Transgender community holds Trans Pride march and celebration, leaves onlookers confused and strangely aroused   (seattlepi.com) divider line 422
    More: Interesting, Trans Pride, Seattle Transgender  
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8074 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Jun 2013 at 6:26 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-30 07:23:57 AM

RKade: Leishu: RKade: I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!" so I guess I'll just say...

Because, ultimately, the very diagnosis of transsexuality/transgender is that this mismatch between your body and gender is so distressing that the surgical modification to your body so that your outside comes that much closer to fitting what could be accurately called your residual self image (pulled from The Matrix, but operative and important here), in addition to hormone therapy, may be the only thing to alleviate that rather extreme distress. I don't know if it qualifies as "good enough" for you, but it happens to be true.

Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?

Strangely, it's still not considered a lesser crime in many states to kill somebody out of "cripple panic," and prosecution when people beat the shiat out of cripples on the streets isn't avoided by local conservative District Attorneys on grounds of their crippled status. As a matter of fact, in most cases, it's thought of as a more egregious crime, and "cripples" (which is an awful term) by law have many accommodations nearly universally to attempt to give them an equal shot at life. Whether those are adequate is a different discussion entirely. You will find that handicapable organizations and benefit societies often participate in other parades, including Pride, though, so in a way there is.

/Just had a friend come out to me as TG/about to start her transition.
//I have told her that I will be with her and support her every step of the way, because it is one hell of a hard process.

As a lifelong cripple, I find the word "handicapable" insulting and condescending. More to my original point though, being as disabled as I am is way worse then having gender identity issues and if you'd like to hash it out privately, I'd love to have a go because, as far as the "who got the worst lot in life" championship goes, me and mine are miles ahead of you and yours. Check my profile for my email.  I've got some fun stories about those organizations too and those who they "can't" help, too.


Until today, I thought "handicapible" was only a word George Carlin created in a bit mocking the stupidity of PC jargon.
 
2013-06-30 08:10:01 AM

RKade: As a lifelong cripple, I find the word "handicapable" insulting and condescending. More to my original point though, being as disabled as I am is way worse then having gender identity issues and if you'd like to hash it out privately, I'd love to have a go because, as far as the "who got the worst lot in life" championship goes, me and mine are miles ahead of you and yours.


I don't support your sinful lifestyle choice. You did not have to join the crips, you chose to be that way.
 
2013-06-30 08:45:32 AM
You asked a question. I provided an accurate answer. You obviously have issues which drive you to make it personal. I apologize for using a tern you find offensive. I have heard the same about 'cripple' so I will try to find a better word. it is a shame that your status as one such individual seems to have eliminated your ability to conduct a civil, logical discussion, though. You have my sympathy.
 
2013-06-30 08:57:10 AM
Furthermore, Rkade, you seem to be under the impression that your hardship somehow invalidates the claim that Transgendered folk also go through hardship. if you are such a repugnant individual that you feel the need to make the horrid things that happen to people some sort of competition, I think I'll let the opportunity to learn more about you pass. You have already made it plain that your only interest is in argument by your own refusal to address my post with anything shortbof vitriol. I prefer to learn more about interesting, lively people, not spiteful douchebags.
 
2013-06-30 09:12:17 AM
I love threads like this because it gives me a chance to weed out the obvious trolls and bigots.
 
2013-06-30 09:23:54 AM

RKade: I'd ask why they need to go so far (in regards to the surgery as opposed to just dealing with the hand they were dealt) but I did that in another thread and never got a good answer beyond "UR A BIGOT ND HOMOPHOBE LOLOLOL!" so I guess I'll just say...

Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?


You're looking at it.
 
2013-06-30 09:28:42 AM
Quantum Apostrophe:I think he's a "sound engineer" which is an engineer like an interior decorator is an architect.

What makes you say that?  Maybe I drive a train.
 
2013-06-30 09:50:08 AM

itazurakko: In a sense it's a theory of the mind problem.  You can't possibly know what it's like to be "the other sex" mentally or anything else. You know what it's like to be YOU.  I can completely buy that people have gender dysphoria and extreme discomfort with their own genitalia.  What I don't buy is that they "recognize" that they "think like" people who were born with female sex organs.  There's no possible way for them to know that.


itazurakko: As a born woman (with the usual female naughty bits), I'm curious.  Particularly given that I've not really matched any "you should do this and that because you're a girl" my entire life up to middle age, I'm very curious.  I've never "felt like" a woman per se, I'm told I'm a woman, end of story.



Precisely. For most people the body and mind are predominantly aligned, so they never have cause to seriously question their gender. You've never not "felt like" a woman. For trans people it's practically impossible to  not question their gender. As a result, those who are cisgender cannot understand what it's really like to be transgender, and those who are transgender cannot understand what it's really like to be cisgender.

As for the theory of the mind aspect, it isn't so binary. Say you're very young, growing up: you and others recognize that your thoughts and behaviors are atypical "for your gender." There are a lot of possibilities at this point. It could be that you're transsexual, it could be that you're just exploring gender in the way that children experiment and incorporate data into their psyche, it may be that you're homosexual (although I'm not sure that kind of thing is evident so early on), et cetera. In my opinion, the best approach for parents, doctors, and others is to take a conservative tack and try not to interfere or influence overmuch. The true situation--and proper diagnosis--should become evident before too long, and I'd venture that most of the time things will resolve themselves and you, the child in question, will turn out not to be transgender (because it's less common than the others).

Add into the mix the confusion that socialization can, erm, engender as one grows up and experiences life. The longer a transsexual person is perceived as and urged to present and behave as the "incorrect" gender, the less "normal" socialization he or she gets, regardless of whatever inherent physical brain differences there are. In this sense, socialization parallels the more apparent physiological changes of puberty. How comfortable would you be, itazurakko, had you been strongly encouraged or even forced to dress and act as a boy, and everyone treated you as such, no matter what you did or said? I daresay you wouldn't grow up feeling quite as well-adjusted and "normal" as you are now, and would have difficulty relating to other women who were socialized in a more typical way.

Above, I suggested that it's practically impossible for someone who's transgender to understand what it's really like to be cisgender, but perhaps if transition were (responsibly) effected early enough, the fallout from "the wrong puberty" and prolonged "improper socialization" would nearly eliminate that seemingly vast gulf. It certainly would minimize it.
 
2013-06-30 09:52:20 AM

omeganuepsilon: Shedim: omeganuepsilon: [cutting large chunk of text to save space and not annoy everyone else]

 counteract the shame that society aims
So how would you go about it?

I understand the purpose.  I'm just saying, that for every 3 steps forward, there are two steps back because of the delivery and public reception.  It would be better to simply take one step forward.

How would I go about it?  I wouldn't even change much.  The campaign's intent is admirable but the execution can be self somewhat self defeating.  A shift in PR is all.  Retiring terms that are problematic based on how others will inevitably perceive them due to their actual definitions(as explained about pride)

Awareness, acceptance, confidence, etc.  instead of pride, things of that nature.

If you want the enemy to accept you, or at least for their less indoctrinated to believe that less, do not give that stereotypical example.

MLK taught this in a way.  He separated himself from violence and supremacy and such, held it in contempt himself.  He didn't dress "white", he dressed professional, which is in reality a popular neutral sense of style and manner.  While he did have an accent, he didn't give into reveling in the slang and style of popular culture. He taught similarities and wrote off the differences asnegligible.

That is the key to acceptance.  Find that common ground,removes focus from the outliers, the radically different.  Same concepts on making friends on an individual level.  Get to know them and find the common ground, and begin doing things together.

Don't celebrate the differences, that imprints as victory and is also a challenge to the psyche of bigots.
Don't go reveling in and flaunting the flamboyant, that conveys superiority. Use their language and remain calm and confident.


All you've proven is that you don't know what pride parades are about.

They're not for the people who march in them and they're not for convincing bigots.
 
2013-06-30 09:53:42 AM

Orgasmatron138: I love threads like this because it gives me a chance to weed out the obvious trolls and bigots.



After years, I've finally started IGNORING some people, but am starting slowly. My only criterion at this point is if someone posts the South Park dolphin fin image. Was moved to do so when it appeared so late in the thread, after some genuine discussion had taken place.
 
2013-06-30 09:55:56 AM

hardinparamedic: So, what field of engineering are you in?


The one thing that every engineering discipline has in common is that it requires the rigorous application of facts and logic.  There is no room for emotion because at the end of the day, you have to produce a result in the real world.  By the way, if you ever want to get out of jury duty, just say you're an engineer.  We never get picked because lawyers know we aren't swayed by their weak "appeal to emotion" arguments.  So if Gender Dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder, it's a farking mental disorder.  It doesn't matter that people are offended or that you FEEL like it's wrong.  It is what it is.
 
2013-06-30 10:06:12 AM

mike_the_engineer: The one thing that every engineering discipline has in common is that it requires the rigorous application of facts and logic.  There is no room for emotion because at the end of the day, you have to produce a result in the real world.  By the way, if you ever want to get out of jury duty, just say you're an engineer.  We never get picked because lawyers know we aren't swayed by their weak "appeal to emotion" arguments.  So if Gender Dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder, it's a farking mental disorder.  It doesn't matter that people are offended or that you FEEL like it's wrong.  It is what it is.


You don't even know the basic definition of a "mental disorder", or the the difference between Gender Dysphora and Transgenderism. Hint: the later is NOT a mental disorder.

i.imgur.com

So what we have here is an engineer who is arguing the "rigorous application of facts and logic", yet is going against the very "facts and logic" he claims to require rigorous application to. In reality, you're an astoundingly stunning example of Dunning-Kruger, and just like many other people who a part of the engineering profession, you're pontificating on things you have no idea or qualification to pontificate on. Like I said. Next time I want a blue print drawn, or some electrical wiring run, I'll call you.

Next time I want information on mental health, I'll go to people who actually know what they're talking about.

Hint: When every legitimate medical body states that you're full of shiat, the overwhelming chance is that you're full of shiat.
 
2013-06-30 10:19:56 AM

hardinparamedic: Hint: When every legitimate medical body states that you're full of shiat, the overwhelming chance is that you're full of shiat.


[citation needed]
 
2013-06-30 10:23:58 AM

jso2897: Is it me, or is the quality of Fark trolling shiat-poor lately?


It's pretty poor. So bad that the other day I said that Lesbians could beparents the same way subsitute teachers are college professors, just to summon Le Trolls to bring their a game. Alas.
 
2013-06-30 10:32:24 AM

mike_the_engineer: hardinparamedic: So, what field of engineering are you in?

The one thing that every engineering discipline has in common is that it requires the rigorous application of facts and logic.  There is no room for emotion because at the end of the day, you have to produce a result in the real world.  By the way, if you ever want to get out of jury duty, just say you're an engineer.  We never get picked because lawyers know we aren't swayed by their weak "appeal to emotion" arguments.  So if Gender Dysphoria is classified as a mental disorder, it's a farking mental disorder.  It doesn't matter that people are offended or that you FEEL like it's wrong.  It is what it is.




Is that the explanation for why, relative to their level of education, there are a disproportionate number of creationists who have engineering degrees?
 
2013-06-30 10:51:11 AM

hardinparamedic: When every legitimate medical body states that you're full of shiat, the overwhelming chance is that you're full of shiat.


I'm not sure that you understood what you just read.  It's says that being transgendered is not necessarily a mental disorder, because certain people who identify as transgender are not distressed by it.  This is because the definition of "transgendered" has been broadened to include people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual... mostly just people who don't like the conventional labels.  So for example, a drag queen might identify as transgender.  He likes to dress and act like a woman, but he understands that he is biologically male.  This guy could be perfectly sane, and he is not who I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the "woman trapped in a man's body" people who actually believe that they are the opposite gender, and want reassignment surgery.  This is absolutely a mental disorder.  Saying that this is not a disorder doesn't even make sense.  You're saying, "I don't have a disorder, but I need treatment.  There is nothing wrong with me, but I need major surgery to fix it."  Bullshiat.

The source you just linked to references gender identity disorder, and explains that a diagnosis is necessary in order to get treatment.
 
2013-06-30 11:22:22 AM
There are those who believe transgenderism must be a mental disorder because it challenges our previous understanding and assumptions about gender and human development. Those assumptions were based on an incomplete understanding of gender and the human brain and development. Scientists continue to learn more about the brain every day and those discoveries are changing our fundamental understanding of how it works.

There will be those who resist change, especially to such a fundamental pillar of society and there will be those who embrace it. As evidenced in this thread there are a great many people who do not want to see the status quo changed, who don't see the point of it, are upset by the idea of it, and still others who are upset with the direction it's taking. Clearly this is a sensitive topic.

I'm left to ask this question; in the absence of concrete, solid proof do we make sweeping changes to society based on a gut feeling and intuition? I'm hesitant to say yes despite having a vested interest in seeing those changes. I know it's asking a lot and people need a little more to go on before they're going to be ok making the kind of changes trans people are asking for. That being said, the status quo is clearly causing a great deal of harm to a certain segment of the population and that can't be allowed to continue. We as a people need to do better and do right by others in our society.
 
2013-06-30 11:40:29 AM

Orgasmatron138: I love threads like this because it gives me a chance to weed out the obvious trolls and bigots.


I know I shouldn't have fallen for one but he looked like he might initially be sincere. Too bad. I'd love to hear a rational discussion of this from the "other side" some time. Maybe it's just asking too much.
 
2013-06-30 11:44:57 AM
TransPride sounds like a brand of margarine spread...
 
2013-06-30 11:54:14 AM
Also, mike_the_engineer,

The entry for gender dysphoria in the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual of Mental Disorders has undergone a number of revisions over the decades and continues to evolve. At one point shock therapy(basically torture) was considered a viable form of treatment for gender dysphoria. The medical field is not always so...enlightened...in their methods and there are a number of bigots who happen to have fancy medical degrees and an active dislike of trans people. Sometimes what you read says more about the prejudicial beliefs of those who wrote it than it does about the subject it pertains to.

Truth is we really don't know what causes transgenderism or how it really works. What we have is anecdotal evidence and a lot of unproven theories. They're good theories, the research is promising, but it's not proof. Some take this lack of proof as evidence there is none to be found(an incorrect assumption). Anyways, if the current literature is contradictory it's because we're still fumbling our way towards understanding, prejudicial bias and outdated ideas not withstanding.
 
2013-06-30 12:01:12 PM
*shrug*

This Navy Seal who now identifies as a woman seems pretty cool. And kind of hot. And pretty stable.

Sorry, on mobile device:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/03/navy-seal-team-6-soldier-come s -out-as-transgender-defying-stereotypes-of-gender-and-profession/
 
2013-06-30 12:15:10 PM

starsrift: All you've proven is that you don't know what pride parades are about.

They're not for the people who march in them and they're not for convincing bigots.


*sigh*

Another selective reader.

Z-clipped: Seriously?  THIS is a negative display of pride, in your opinion?


Seriously?  No.

The look exactly like what I was talking about.  I was discussing, from the beginning, the general problems society has with pride though.  If you would like to discuss those actual points I would love to hear your points on the topic.

This petty game of trading insults and defamation masked as pointed rhetorical questions though, I will not play.  I did not say or mean most of what was talked about in that last post by your or mr hardon.  I only gave what I got, and it was ultimately pointless I suppose, but that goes back to what I had posted earlier, the societal aspects of simply trading insults.

As point of interest that I want people to understand.

I fully support parades such as you pictured very family friendly looking people very obviously not looking to startle or upset the reactionary crowd.  This is exactly a sample of what I mean.

I was talking not necessarily about any given parade, but of theconcepts of public perception in general.

Ifully support people standing up for themselves. You can stand in the same spot and use the same loud voice, but when the words turn every bit as vehement or vitrolic(as per many in this thread) as all the other bigots, you convince as many for one side as you do for the other, it gets the typical John Stuart You'reNotHelping.jpg.

Maybe you need a different perspective to understand my point.
If all christians behaved as per the benevolent andcharitable priest able to hold a rational discussion, would you be more apt to listen to what they have to say, than if they were red faced bloated televisedevangelicals shouting and gesticulating and look as if they're about to burst a vein?

I'll grant you that many are taking that more benevolent path, but there are still those others in spades in any given movement.  This thread proves there are such people here on this website, that lash out and gesticulate and insult those they arbitrarily suspect are not genuine.  The tiniest question that even resembles criticism, not even an insult, but criticism, and it's like Pearl Harbor all over again.
 
2013-06-30 12:18:09 PM

omeganuepsilon: , the general problems society has with pride though.


I think I see what you are saying, but I respectfully disagree that society has a problem with these facets, in a general sense, any more. I believe it is more of a vocal minority that have problems with it. I do not have evidence to back this up. I may indeed be proven wrong, but it is my gut feeling.
 
2013-06-30 12:24:49 PM

megarian: *shrug*

This Navy Seal who now identifies as a woman seems pretty cool. And kind of hot. And pretty stable.

Sorry, on mobile device:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/03/navy-seal-team-6-soldier-com e s -out-as-transgender-defying-stereotypes-of-gender-and-profession/


De-gapped and linked for convenience
 
2013-06-30 12:29:04 PM

FloydA: megarian: *shrug*

This Navy Seal who now identifies as a woman seems pretty cool. And kind of hot. And pretty stable.

Sorry, on mobile device:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/03/navy-seal-team-6-soldier-com e s -out-as-transgender-defying-stereotypes-of-gender-and-profession/

De-gapped and linked for convenience


Why, thank you!
 
2013-06-30 12:30:23 PM

megarian: *shrug*

This Navy Seal who now identifies as a woman seems pretty cool. And kind of hot. And pretty stable.

Sorry, on mobile device:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/03/navy-seal-team-6-soldier-come s -out-as-transgender-defying-stereotypes-of-gender-and-profession/


They did an interview on CNN a month or so ago.  Pretty neat story iirc.  Polite, well spoken, good points, not inflammatory or outrageous, courageous even, on all aspects of character apparently.  CNN may be going down the shiatter in some ways(Piers Morgan replacing Larry King, the interviews turned into pulpits, and other party line toeing) I much prefer neutral news, cold and efficient delivery), but they're better in others.

There they sat, dressed like a woman and looking like a man dressed like a woman, and carried off more class than many of the people in these threads that are supposed allies.
 
2013-06-30 12:33:01 PM

Quantum Apostrophe: alienated: mike_the_engineer: Sure it is.  Do you feel an overwhelming urge to chop off your penis?

For an engineer, you sure sound like an idiot.

I think he's a "sound engineer" which is an engineer like an interior decorator is an architect.


As a sound engineer (among other things), I'd like to say you're wrong. You're wrong because those are too closely related.

A sound engineer is an engineer like a chef is an architect. They are simply unrelated in almost every way.

In general, it's why I actually dislike the term "Sound Engineer." "Audio Technician" (or "Audio Tech") for short, is more accurate. There are hard things we (the real ones) do, (and I'm really just an amateur. I barely scratch the surface) certainly, and they take work, practice, and education and are quite challenging, especially when you get into acoustic design, as I love to do, but my audio work has nothing to do with the practice of Engineering, in the specific sense, other than that there's a lot of math involved at any level and a decent amount of geometry, physics, and calculus involved at any level deserving of the title
 
2013-06-30 12:35:24 PM

runcible spork: How comfortable would you be, itazurakko, had you been strongly encouraged or even forced to dress and act as a boy, and everyone treated you as such, no matter what you did or said? I daresay you wouldn't grow up feeling quite as well-adjusted and "normal" as you are now, and would have difficulty relating to other women who were socialized in a more typical way.


What on earth are you on about?

I was distressed being told I had to "be a girl" and act like a girl.  I resisted that, caused me much strife in my younger life. I would have far rather been told to dress like a boy!  So no, I don't "feel like a woman" per se or "feel feminine" and neither do hordes of other women out there who are just as "lolwut?" about that whole thing as I am. We're just people.  Being told that "naturally" we will "want" to quit our jobs when we marry and have a baby is not something people were choosing or "identifying" with.  It was imposed (and people reject it all the time - I certainly did).

I haven't worn a dress since leaving the required school uniform behind, I get "misgendered" frequently, and yet... I'm a woman, because people tell me I am.  That's it, nothing more, to me.

My argument is that we should let people be themselves and act how they want, socialize with who they want, regardless of the shape of their bits, and stop being so obsessed about the two "matching" or not.

I get that people have gender dysphoria. If surgery to "fit in" better and make interactions in our imperfect world easier, party on. I have nothing against that.  I merely have a problem with the "born in the wrong body" rhetoric and the ways I see it being used around me.  I don't go around hating on the various trans people I have occasion to interact with - and yet I wouldn't go to them to vent or sympathize about various issues about growing up as a girl, either.

And obviously, it's the outliers who make news. But you've got kids now saying in 100% seriousness that "oh, today I'm a boy so you have to call me 'he' but sometimes I'm a girl, too - I'm genderfluid" or whatever it is, and I can't help but think what, really? You can't just have moods? If you're not the completely stereotype of what a woman is or feeling properly "submissive" or "nurturing" suddenly today you're a man?   They write long essays about it all over the internet and it's all ABOUT stereotypes, and matching them or not.  Quite frankly it's just depressing.  It's certainly not in any way transgressive.
 
2013-06-30 12:44:51 PM

omeganuepsilon: megarian: *shrug*

This Navy Seal who now identifies as a woman seems pretty cool. And kind of hot. And pretty stable.

Sorry, on mobile device:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/03/navy-seal-team-6-soldier-come s -out-as-transgender-defying-stereotypes-of-gender-and-profession/

They did an interview on CNN a month or so ago.  Pretty neat story iirc.  Polite, well spoken, good points, not inflammatory or outrageous, courageous even, on all aspects of character apparently.  CNN may be going down the shiatter in some ways(Piers Morgan replacing Larry King, the interviews turned into pulpits, and other party line toeing) I much prefer neutral news, cold and efficient delivery), but they're better in others.

There they sat, dressed like a woman and looking like a man dressed like a woman, and carried off more class than many of the people in these threads that are supposed allies.


I saw it, too. It was a pretty interesting interview and I think it offered a unique look at the issue. She was a freaking Navy Seal...that's about as manly as you can get. And she seemed well-adjusted, reasonable, and relatable. I really enjoyed the interview.

Except she did walk like a calf in those high heels. But so do I. :)
 
2013-06-30 12:45:25 PM

Leishu: omeganuepsilon: , the general problems society has with pride though.

I think I see what you are saying, but I respectfully disagree that society has a problem with these facets, in a general sense, any more. I believe it is more of a vocal minority that have problems with it. I do not have evidence to back this up. I may indeed be proven wrong, but it is my gut feeling.


Pride is what fuels groups like the Black Panthers and Westboro Baptists.  Vocal minorities, sure, but very much a detriment to society. In this case, pride begets animosity.

It also goes down to how we teach our children.  Most of them are taught that they are special and are turned into spoiled snowflakes because of it.  Rewarding existence and teaching entitlement based on that alone, is a detriment to society. In this case, pride begets complacency and unreasonable expectations of life in general.  The proverbial silver spoon.  It teaches that they don't need to earn anything, from goods to existence.

Yes, we have rights, and those that don't are still struggling for them, much the same way all of our rights were fought for, back to the origin of this country.  But because of vocal minorities, we're still struggling along sluggishly on some matters.  We not only have to earn, but maintain these rights, they are not without cost, just because we should have them.
 
2013-06-30 12:48:05 PM

itazurakko: runcible spork: How comfortable would you be, itazurakko, had you been strongly encouraged or even forced to dress and act as a boy, and everyone treated you as such, no matter what you did or said? I daresay you wouldn't grow up feeling quite as well-adjusted and "normal" as you are now, and would have difficulty relating to other women who were socialized in a more typical way.

What on earth are you on about?

I was distressed being told I had to "be a girl" and act like a girl.  I resisted that, caused me much strife in my younger life. I would have far rather been told to dress like a boy!  So no, I don't "feel like a woman" per se or "feel feminine" and neither do hordes of other women out there who are just as "lolwut?" about that whole thing as I am. We're just people.  Being told that "naturally" we will "want" to quit our jobs when we marry and have a baby is not something people were choosing or "identifying" with.  It was imposed (and people reject it all the time - I certainly did).

I haven't worn a dress since leaving the required school uniform behind, I get "misgendered" frequently, and yet... I'm a woman, because people tell me I am.  That's it, nothing more, to me.

My argument is that we should let people be themselves and act how they want, socialize with who they want, regardless of the shape of their bits, and stop being so obsessed about the two "matching" or not.

I get that people have gender dysphoria. If surgery to "fit in" better and make interactions in our imperfect world easier, party on. I have nothing against that.  I merely have a problem with the "born in the wrong body" rhetoric and the ways I see it being used around me.  I don't go around hating on the various trans people I have occasion to interact with - and yet I wouldn't go to them to vent or sympathize about various issues about growing up as a girl, either.

And obviously, it's the outliers who make news. But you've got kids now saying in 100% seriousness that "oh, today ...



I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Almost completely.
 
2013-06-30 12:50:52 PM

megarian: Except she did walk like a calf in those high heels. But so do I. :)


Combat boots for years will lead to that.  I could hardly wear normal shoes once I left the military, nevermind heels. Had a tendency to high step because of the weight difference.

/still prefer heavy footwear
 
2013-06-30 12:52:04 PM

runcible spork: I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Almost completely.


Perhaps we're even, then.

I'm out, for now.
 
2013-06-30 12:56:19 PM
Me faping hand is confused...
 
2013-06-30 12:59:55 PM
fudge packers and carpet munchers are ruining this country.
 
2013-06-30 01:01:10 PM

nyrB: For me it's simple:


Yes, but nobody cares about what it's like for you.
 
2013-06-30 01:04:36 PM

itazurakko: I merely have a problem with the "born in the wrong body" rhetoric and the ways I see it being used around me.


FYI: It is a real condition with real science backing it, the mis-matching parts thing.

Granted, some of your individual experiences may be akin to something like aspergers or something, in that people wrongly self diagnose for the attention/status/impression of intelligence despite actions.  But it is not only rhetoric on scale, the problem is real as can be exampled in medical journals.

That is why people find you offensive.  You seem to be denying science based on your limited experiences.  And even when it comes to your limited anecdotal experience, if you're not trained / educated in the field, you really have no way of knowing if you have an accurate grasp of that individual's circumstances.  You seem to be making absolute(and and certainly wrong) claims in a field that you know relatively nothing about, based on your personal feelings of the topic and nothing else.
 
2013-06-30 01:12:44 PM

omeganuepsilon: megarian: Except she did walk like a calf in those high heels. But so do I. :)

Combat boots for years will lead to that.  I could hardly wear normal shoes once I left the military, nevermind heels. Had a tendency to high step because of the weight difference.

/still prefer heavy footwear


Well, that explains why my goth phase lead to me walking like a calf in stilettos. For some reason, if I drink a lot, I walk fine in heels.

/at least I think I do

Seriously, that actually kind of explains why she walks like that. Getting comfy in heels takes at least a decade of practice...especially transitioning from combat boots.
 
2013-06-30 01:22:17 PM

omeganuepsilon: itazurakko: I merely have a problem with the "born in the wrong body" rhetoric and the ways I see it being used around me.

FYI: It is a real condition with real science backing it, the mis-matching parts thing.

Granted, some of your individual experiences may be akin to something like aspergers or something, in that people wrongly self diagnose for the attention/status/impression of intelligence despite actions.  But it is not only rhetoric on scale, the problem is real as can be exampled in medical journals.

That is why people find you offensive.  You seem to be denying science based on your limited experiences.  And even when it comes to your limited anecdotal experience, if you're not trained / educated in the field, you really have no way of knowing if you have an accurate grasp of that individual's circumstances.  You seem to be making absolute(and and certainly wrong) claims in a field that you know relatively nothing about, based on your personal feelings of the topic and nothing else.


That is the thing isn't it? Trans folks aren't all the same. They don't come to it for the same reasons. It's hardly a black and white issue. For some it IS some psychological damage. For some it's chemical. For some it's a combination of issues. For some it is a matter of identity. Transvestites, transgender, it's a whole nest of things that aren't the same for everyone. And that is hard for some folks, who prefer easy answers, and black and white issues, that are clearly delineated, because thinking and considering is hard work, and people want convenience in issues, as opposed to taking the time to understand them, even a little.

A lot of folks just want pat answers. They want "they're just sick" to be the magic bullet, and then have another to "cure" folks. Easier than thinking, and America has long been hard on thinking...
 
2013-06-30 01:51:15 PM

hubiestubert: That is the thing isn't it?


Ayup.  That's why I try to explain, where I can, to at least deliver the concept of a thing if not the details.  I'm as faulty as anyone for having a preconceived notion, and have asked questions in the past, and have come across some very neat and well thought out answers.

The problem, more and more on fark, is sifting through the BS.  Rational conversation used to be much easier to come by.
 
2013-06-30 01:58:34 PM

omeganuepsilon: You can stand in the same spot and use the same loud voice, but when the words turn every bit as vehement or vitrolic(as per many in this thread) as all the other bigots


You've thoroughly confused me.  All I was doing was trying to explain the purpose and positive value of Pride to you, since you seemed not to understand it, and were obviously trying to paint it as a negative.

I don't see any part of the LGBTQ movement as crossing into the territory you're describing, and moreover, I think the assumptions you're making about "people in general", and their feelings about Pride are unsupported.  Where are all of these legions of people who are open-minded, but are put off of supporting gays or trans people by the Pride movement?  I've certainly never seen them.

omeganuepsilon: Pride is what fuels groups like the Black Panthers and Westboro Baptists.


It absolutely is not.  Those groups act upon their own volition.  Pride is very simply a statement of existence.  "We're here.  Get used to it".  If you want to deem the stance "I exist" as "too aggressive for some people", I think you should reconsider the rationality of the position you're advancing.

omeganuepsilon: It also goes down to how we teach our children.  Most of them are taught that they are special and are turned into spoiled snowflakes because of it.  Rewarding existence and teaching entitlement based on that alone, is a detriment to society. In this case, pride begets complacency and unreasonable expectations of life in general.  The proverbial silver spoon.  It teaches that they don't need to earn anything, from goods to existence.


Look, I'm as annoyed by some of the recent trends in parenting as anybody, but with all due respect, applying this to the concept embodied by Pride is completely preposterous.  This may seem like a reasonable philosophical comparison to you, but it's childish and belies a complete misunderstanding of everything the people in that picture I posted are marching for.

omeganuepsilon: But because of vocal minorities, we're still struggling along sluggishly on some matters.


I also disagree with this idea.  Stonewall happened just before I was born.  Up until just 10 years ago having sex was still a crime for gays in some places. In my lifetime, I've seen gays face incredible social opposition, come out of the closet in the grand sense, become mainstream cultural icons, and make enormous strides toward acceptance and equality.  I'm actually continually amazed and delighted at how far and how quickly their movement has carried them, especially if you look at history with any kind of perspective.

omeganuepsilon: We not only have to earn, but maintain these rights, they are not without cost, just because we should have them.


We earn privileges.

Listen, I'm not trying to troll you, or insult you, or score little debate points here.  I know you're making a nuanced argument, but I'm trying to tell you that the foundational ideas you're starting from are flawed.  LGBTQ Pride is not about "I'm special".  It's not about "You bigots suck for not accepting me."  Are some LGBTQ people mad about what society has put them through?  Of course.  But Pride is about reaffirming positive self-worth, and doing it in the faces of people who hate you, so that you can't be ignored, and so that others like you can see that they don't have to hide.  It's working out pretty darn well for gays and lesbians, so I don't think trans people are amiss if they follow the same plan of action.
 
2013-06-30 02:14:40 PM

itazurakko: But what I meant by the gay stuff is... often one of the things that people self-reporting that they think they might be trans is, they are attracted to people of the same sex.  Assuming they're het (as the default) they jump to "okay maybe I'm a girl in a boy's body because I like boys and I want them to like me like I'm their girlfriend").


Tell that to my coworker who married a woman, then became a woman. She's still happily married.
 
2013-06-30 02:14:54 PM

RKade: Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?


Chicago has one, started a few years back.
 
2013-06-30 02:23:29 PM

WhyteRaven74: RKade: Good for them. Where's my cripple march/roll?

Chicago has one, started a few years back.


Hey, the Shriners are more than just that...

/Hell
//One plz
 
2013-06-30 02:26:05 PM

hubiestubert: Hey, the Shriners are more than just that...


*golf clap*
 
2013-06-30 02:41:04 PM

Z-clipped: omeganuepsilon: Pride is what fuels groups like the Black Panthers and Westboro Baptists.

It absolutely is not.  Those groups act upon their own volition.  Pride is very simply a statement of existence.  "We're here.  Get used to it".  If you want to deem the stance "I exist" as "too aggressive for some people", I think you should reconsider the rationality of the position you're advancing.


Pride, as a word, has many negative connotations and synonyms that people will inevitably tie to it.

Z-clipped: LGBTQ Pride is not about "I'm special".


I know, but it's commonly perceived that way.  People at large are bound to equivocated it with things like arrogance and conceit. It is not even conscious on their part, they just see it as "uppiity" because that's the common word association.

You could, by simply substituting the word, circumvent that inevitable reaction in some.  If you chose the right terminology you could gain all the positive aspects of pride, the reinforced confidence and all the other things that you want to attribute to pride, but without all of the negative aspects.

To illustrate the point, here are the synonyms for pride from thesaurus.com(truncated as it is). I will highlight(bold) the obviously negative connotations that are commonly tied with it, or that share similar aspects of being highly equivocated by the populace at large(underline).

Pride(self esteem)
amour-propre, delight, dignity, ego, ego trip, egoism, egotism, face, gratification, happiness, honor, joy, pleasure, pridefulness, repletion, satisfaction, self-admiration, self-confidence, self-glorification, self-love, self-regard, self-respect, self-satisfaction, self-sufficiency, self-trust, self-worth, sufficiency

Also commonly understood as(off the top of my head) arrogance, conceit, etc.

Now, some other word alternatives:

Self confidence:
     aplomb, inner strength, positive self-image, self-assuranceCourage:adventuresomeness, adventurousness, audacity, backbone, bravery, bravura, daring, dash, dauntlessness, determination, endurance, enterprise, fearlessness, firmness, fortitude, gallantry, gameness, grit, guts, hardihood, heroism, intrepidity, lion-heartedness, mettle, nerve, pluck, power, prowess, pugnacity, rashness, recklessness, resolution, spirit, spunk, stoutheartedness, temerity, tenacity, valor, venturesomeness,

Z-clipped: Listen, I'm not trying to troll you, or insult you, or score little debate points here.  I know you're making a nuanced argument


Much appreciated.  It is just a quibbling point, we're only on fark after all, but there is some merit in the idea of presenting an image that lacks a handhold for those that would argue against it.  This is why politicians have PR people and advisors, to mitigate or nullify what the opponent has to work with.

Z-clipped: omeganuepsilon: We not only have to earn, but maintain these rights, they are not without cost, just because we should have them.

We earn privileges.


We earn everything. The rights we currently have, and are fighting for(ie gay marriage), may be granted in part today, but they were paid for dearly in the past.Even now, some in the government and politics in general, there is an effort to countermand some of the very large ones.  Gun control, unreasonable search and seizure, freedom of and from religion, etc.  There is constant back and forth to keep these things as protected and valid as they ever were, as some are always trying to limit or put restrictions on them.People have to fight and keep the powers that be in check or those go away eventually, history has proven that time and time again.
 
2013-06-30 02:43:44 PM
wow, fark ate a few of my line brakes
I'd fix but it'd take a lot more room, sorry
 
2013-06-30 02:47:22 PM

omeganuepsilon: wow, fark ate a few of my line brakes


Fark cut your brake lines? Give me a break!
 
2013-06-30 03:06:24 PM

Quantum Apostrophe: omeganuepsilon: wow, fark ate a few of my line brakes

Fark cut your brake lines? Give me a break!


Yeah, I had my doubts for a microsecond but the laptop battery warning was threatening to cut me off.
/beautiful day out, its a shame I had to step inside to plug it in
 
2013-06-30 03:13:12 PM

omeganuepsilon: Pride, as a word, has many negative connotations and synonyms that people will inevitably tie to it.


The kind of people who will jump to paint Pride as negative because of its name are pretty irrelevant to its purpose.  They're of the same ilk who complain that there's no White History Month.

omeganuepsilon: You could, by simply substituting the word, circumvent that inevitable reaction in some.


You might perhapsin some tiny number, but you'd also lose the vast internal positivism that the name engenders in its participants, which is integral to the goal of Pride.  There's absolutely nothing wrong or negative about a group of people taking pride in who they are when they've been systematically told by a society that who they are makes them less than other people.  I would hazard that this is ESPECIALLY pertinent for trans people who suffer from gender dysphoria, as they face such an overwhelming internal struggle with self-worth as it is.  If a few feathers get ruffled because the word "Pride" is a little uppity, I think the movement can probably live with that, since those are feathers that get ruffled by mosquito farts.

I get the feeling that your argument boils down to "if trans people were all perfectly positively aligned in their actions, and their movement were perfectly unified in its messaging, they'd get to their goal faster."  This is, of course, true.  But I don't think I need to point out the obvious problem with it.

omeganuepsilon: We earn everything. The rights we currently have, and are fighting for(ie gay marriage), may be granted in part today, but they were paid for dearly in the past.Even now, some in the government and politics in general, there is an effort to countermand some of the very large ones.  Gun control, unreasonable search and seizure, freedom of and from religion, etc.  There is constant back and forth to keep these things as protected and valid as they ever were, as some are always trying to limit or put restrictions on them.People have to fight and keep the powers that be in check or those go away eventually, history has proven that time and time again.


Fair enough.  But I'll reiterate that if Gay Pride had any hand in the progress of gay equality, trans people have chosen the best path to their goal that history has to offer, as far as I'm aware.  If you think you can meaningfully improve their tactics- and I mean this with no snark implied whatsoever- perhaps you should write them a letter.  Just be sure- ok, a little snark here- to post the reply you get so we can all read it.
 
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