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(Washington Post)   Hopefully by Monday your shifts at the drive-up window will double, just like your student loan rate   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 49
    More: Followup, Debbie Stabenow, Stafford, loan rates, interest rates  
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2991 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jun 2013 at 1:36 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



49 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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Archived thread
 
2013-06-28 01:38:24 PM
Hopefully Hopefully by by Monday Monday the the mods mods will will sober sober up up and and stop stop posting posting duplicate duplicate threads threads..
 
2013-06-28 01:38:30 PM
Pfft, poor people problems.
 
2013-06-28 01:40:01 PM
Seriously, what the fark is wrong with this congress.  They can't agree on anything and they can't get anything done on time.  Its downright depressing.
 
2013-06-28 01:42:07 PM
In what year do you think the GOP will have alienated so many people to the point where they're no longer viable as a national political party?

I'm thinking sometime around 2025.
 
2013-06-28 01:45:04 PM

Scythed: In what year do you think the GOP will have alienated so many people to the point where they're no longer viable as a national political party?

I'm thinking sometime around 2025.


It's already happened.
 
2013-06-28 01:46:02 PM
Just because student loan rates are going to be higher than mortgages after this and still not dischargeable in bankruptcy, and that the generation paying them is the most underemployed, underpaid, and educated one in almost a century doesn't mean their not lazy whiners.  Do more to protect (wealthy) Baby Boomers' retirement accounts, and make these damned kids suffer.  I'm sure they're on someone's lawn.
 
2013-06-28 01:48:11 PM
Glad my loan is paid off. Not having to deal with it any more makes me happy. Now the wife is making noises about renovations... ugh.
 
2013-06-28 01:48:12 PM
Serves them right for taking out loans in the first place and not working in places that can pay for them.
 
2013-06-28 01:52:02 PM
This is so depressing. These stupid farking idiots.
 
2013-06-28 01:54:37 PM
This thread is like deja-vu all over again.
 
2013-06-28 01:54:40 PM
Please, please, please don't do this. Please.

NSA: Please send this to Congress. Thanks.
 
2013-06-28 02:00:25 PM
It will be necessary to double your income because your $103.40 loan payment for your education will skyrocket all the way up to $106.80.
 
2013-06-28 02:04:40 PM

farkstorm: It will be necessary to double your income because your $103.40 loan payment for your education will skyrocket all the way up to $106.80.


You must do great things with all that free money you get whenever you open up a new credit card.
 
2013-06-28 02:09:23 PM

farkstorm: It will be necessary to double your income because your $103.40 loan payment for your education will skyrocket all the way up to $106.80.


$100 student loan payments?
I WISH mine were going to be that low.
 
2013-06-28 02:10:09 PM
looks like its for new loans only?
 
2013-06-28 02:24:18 PM
6.8%?

Must be nice.

I've been paying 9.8% ever since Sallie Mae pulled that trickery in 2007 in which they offered to "consolidate" all your loan payments (which you made separate payments for each semesters loan, leading to missed/lost payments) as long as you agreed to the terms.

Little did anyone know, buried in the 100+ page document, you agreed to never be allowed to refinance or adjust the internet rate on your loan, and that it would be set at current private lending rates.

I was making 7-8 ~$40 payments every month, then suddenly started getting a bill for over $600.  6 years later, I've paid more in interest than the original principle of the loan.  Nice racket they've got going on.
 
2013-06-28 02:33:46 PM

farkstorm: It will be necessary to double your income because your $103.40 loan payment for your education will skyrocket all the way up to $106.80.


I'm facing $100K in debt in my future. If everything goes right, I'll be attendig University of Washington's PharmD program. It's about $25K per year, times four years. The doubled interest rate would mean my monthly payment would increase from $984 to $1150. And here's some cynicism: the website I used already had 6.8% as the default rate. It's like they expect Congress to fark this up.
 
2013-06-28 02:35:51 PM

Frank and Beans: Scythed: In what year do you think the GOP will have alienated so many people to the point where they're no longer viable as a national political party?

I'm thinking sometime around 2025.

It's already happened.


I don't know.

The national Republican party is currently being run by their True Believers who the other 60+% of the country (including some of the remaining Republicans) find to be crazy.  The Democratic Party is not quite being run by crazies to that extent (They're idealistic or corrupt (and Republicans are also corrupt), but not crazy).

But there are plenty of moderate-ish state and local Republicans who aren't True Believers (plus the True Believers from the more rural areas and the South, which is pretty much only True Believers at this point outside of the major cities) to provide them with a national presence (albeit on state and local levels).

So IF the Republicans can show up with these sane, pragmatic moderate candidates (ie: "Taxes are bad" vs. "Taxes are a necessary evil because I like having roads and schools, so let's figure out the least harm for the most gain") and squash the True Believers, then they can effectively compete on a national level again.  The problem is that the majority of Republicans are currently True Believers, which means that moderate Republicans get beat in the primaries.
 
2013-06-28 02:42:54 PM

jfivealive: Seriously, what the fark is wrong with this congress.  They can't agree on anything and they can't get anything done on time.  Its downright depressing.


This congress?  You mean just Congress in general right?
 
2013-06-28 02:47:35 PM

meyerkev: Frank and Beans: Scythed: In what year do you think the GOP will have alienated so many people to the point where they're no longer viable as a national political party?

I'm thinking sometime around 2025.

It's already happened.

I don't know.

The national Republican party is currently being run by their True Believers who the other 60+% of the country (including some of the remaining Republicans) find to be crazy.  The Democratic Party is not quite being run by crazies to that extent (They're idealistic or corrupt (and Republicans are also corrupt), but not crazy).

But there are plenty of moderate-ish state and local Republicans who aren't True Believers (plus the True Believers from the more rural areas and the South, which is pretty much only True Believers at this point outside of the major cities) to provide them with a national presence (albeit on state and local levels).

So IF the Republicans can show up with these sane, pragmatic moderate candidates (ie: "Taxes are bad" vs. "Taxes are a necessary evil because I like having roads and schools, so let's figure out the least harm for the most gain") and squash the True Believers, then they can effectively compete on a national level again.  The problem is that the majority of Republicans are currently True Believers, which means that moderate Republicans get beat in the primaries.


Its why I vote for "the most sensible republican" in the primaries.  In the blood red states, you aren't getting a democrat elected so you may as well go for the lesser of evils.  Plus, a moderate Republican Governor with a moderate Democratic state legislature is probably a pretty good setup.  (instead of the right wing nightmare we have in Texas right now)
 
2013-06-28 02:47:37 PM

jfivealive: Seriously, what the fark is wrong with this congress.  They can't agree on anything and they can't get anything done on time.  Its downright depressing.


Republicans

/really, congress was kinda designed that way, though lately it's been pretty extreme
 
2013-06-28 02:48:56 PM

ikanreed: Just because student loan rates are going to be higher than mortgages after this and still not dischargeable in bankruptcy, and that the generation paying them is the most underemployed, underpaid, and educated one in almost a century doesn't mean their not lazy whiners.  Do more to protect (wealthy) Baby Boomers' retirement accounts, and make these damned kids suffer.  I'm sure they're on someone's lawn.


I'm curious if you have a link that can support the bolded claim. I just saw something which claims underemployment is only 45% among new college grads today, and that it was 55% after the 91-92 recession, and that it never gets better than about 33%. The big difference today, it is claimed, is the loan burden, but that's orthogonal to the bolded statement in your phrasing. I don't believe Aaron Task any more than I believe you, but in the absence of any reputable measurements, I'm going to lean to thinking anyone who says "This sucks worse than any sucking in the history of ever" is, in fact, whining.
With respect to baby boomers, I notice you do qualify that, you do seem aware that most baby boomers are farked. The thing is, of the baby boomers with retirement accounts, the ones that aren't farked, most of them are "middle class", as the other peasants like to call it. They have retirement accounts because they lived prudently. Do you really think we should fark them as well, to alleviate the student loan problem?
 
2013-06-28 02:48:59 PM
How is it that banks STILL get free money, but student loan rate doubles? How is this even an option?
 
2013-06-28 02:53:09 PM

BetterMetalSnake: How is it that banks STILL get free money, but student loan rate doubles? How is this even an option?


It's called the Golden Rule...y'know, those with the Gold make the Rules.
 
2013-06-28 02:53:53 PM
 
2013-06-28 02:55:11 PM
A Stafford loan is a fixed rate loan.  The 6.8% applies to new loans.  And ONLY to subsidized Stafford loans.
 
2013-06-28 02:55:45 PM

stryker4526: farkstorm: It will be necessary to double your income because your $103.40 loan payment for your education will skyrocket all the way up to $106.80.

$100 student loan payments?
I WISH mine were going to be that low.


My general rule of thumb (back on my interest rates, which averaged out to ~4.5%) is every thousand dollars you borrow means $13/month.

So for every $10K you borrow, you need to find $130/month.  Borrow $30K, and you're up to a new car payment.

/Started at $165.
//Down to $65 thanks to a crazy tax return and running around paycheck to paycheck for the last 6 months.
 
2013-06-28 02:57:36 PM

rumpelstiltskin: ikanreed: Just because student loan rates are going to be higher than mortgages after this and still not dischargeable in bankruptcy, and that the generation paying them is the most underemployed, underpaid, and educated one in almost a century doesn't mean their not lazy whiners.  Do more to protect (wealthy) Baby Boomers' retirement accounts, and make these damned kids suffer.  I'm sure they're on someone's lawn.

I'm curious if you have a link that can support the bolded claim. I just saw something which claims underemployment is only 45% among new college grads today, and that it was 55% after the 91-92 recession, and that it never gets better than about 33%. The big difference today, it is claimed, is the loan burden, but that's orthogonal to the bolded statement in your phrasing. I don't believe Aaron Task any more than I believe you, but in the absence of any reputable measurements, I'm going to lean to thinking anyone who says "This sucks worse than any sucking in the history of ever" is, in fact, whining.
With respect to baby boomers, I notice you do qualify that, you do seem aware that most baby boomers are farked. The thing is, of the baby boomers with retirement accounts, the ones that aren't farked, most of them are "middle class", as the other peasants like to call it. They have retirement accounts because they lived prudently. Do you really think we should fark them as well, to alleviate the student loan problem?


There is no underemployment among college grads.

Let me say that for you again so you get it:

There is no underemployment among college grads.

The mere act of getting a degree doesn't mean you should be working it. The field you've chosen may be saturated in the area you're in, or not in demand at all - or, I've seen jobs where the associated degree didn't really qualify you to work it. If I stopped being a DBA and was working at Best Buy as a repair dweeb, that may be underemployment  - and that depends on demand in my area; I know I could walk into a job in, say, Atlanta, but I have to be willing to make that move. Just staying put and bemoaning not having the same job grade doesn't (shouldn't) count.
 
2013-06-28 03:01:00 PM
Sucks to be you.
 
2013-06-28 03:08:24 PM

Carousel Beast: rumpelstiltskin: ikanreed: Just because student loan rates are going to be higher than mortgages after this and still not dischargeable in bankruptcy, and that the generation paying them is the most underemployed, underpaid, and educated one in almost a century doesn't mean their not lazy whiners.  Do more to protect (wealthy) Baby Boomers' retirement accounts, and make these damned kids suffer.  I'm sure they're on someone's lawn.

I'm curious if you have a link that can support the bolded claim. I just saw something which claims underemployment is only 45% among new college grads today, and that it was 55% after the 91-92 recession, and that it never gets better than about 33%. The big difference today, it is claimed, is the loan burden, but that's orthogonal to the bolded statement in your phrasing. I don't believe Aaron Task any more than I believe you, but in the absence of any reputable measurements, I'm going to lean to thinking anyone who says "This sucks worse than any sucking in the history of ever" is, in fact, whining.
With respect to baby boomers, I notice you do qualify that, you do seem aware that most baby boomers are farked. The thing is, of the baby boomers with retirement accounts, the ones that aren't farked, most of them are "middle class", as the other peasants like to call it. They have retirement accounts because they lived prudently. Do you really think we should fark them as well, to alleviate the student loan problem?

There is no underemployment among college grads.

Let me say that for you again so you get it:

There is no underemployment among college grads.

The mere act of getting a degree doesn't mean you should be working it. The field you've chosen may be saturated in the area you're in, or not in demand at all - or, I've seen jobs where the associated degree didn't really qualify you to work it. If I stopped being a DBA and was working at Best Buy as a repair dweeb, that may be underemployment  - and that depends on demand in my a ...


So according to your logic there's no such thing as being underemployed.
Excuse me while I, and most of the rest of the world, laugh at you.
 
2013-06-28 03:28:50 PM

Carousel Beast: rumpelstiltskin: ikanreed: Just because student loan rates are going to be higher than mortgages after this and still not dischargeable in bankruptcy, and that the generation paying them is the most underemployed, underpaid, and educated one in almost a century doesn't mean their not lazy whiners.  Do more to protect (wealthy) Baby Boomers' retirement accounts, and make these damned kids suffer.  I'm sure they're on someone's lawn.

I'm curious if you have a link that can support the bolded claim. I just saw something which claims underemployment is only 45% among new college grads today, and that it was 55% after the 91-92 recession, and that it never gets better than about 33%. The big difference today, it is claimed, is the loan burden, but that's orthogonal to the bolded statement in your phrasing. I don't believe Aaron Task any more than I believe you, but in the absence of any reputable measurements, I'm going to lean to thinking anyone who says "This sucks worse than any sucking in the history of ever" is, in fact, whining.
With respect to baby boomers, I notice you do qualify that, you do seem aware that most baby boomers are farked. The thing is, of the baby boomers with retirement accounts, the ones that aren't farked, most of them are "middle class", as the other peasants like to call it. They have retirement accounts because they lived prudently. Do you really think we should fark them as well, to alleviate the student loan problem?

There is no underemployment among college grads.

Let me say that for you again so you get it:

There is no underemployment among college grads.


Whatever you think "underemployment" does or doesn't mean, it was well-defined in the study. That's the definition we're working with here. What you think it means is irrelevant, and you can say it thrice and it still won't mean anything.
 
2013-06-28 03:29:32 PM

Mike Chewbacca: farkstorm: It will be necessary to double your income because your $103.40 loan payment for your education will skyrocket all the way up to $106.80.

I'm facing $100K in debt in my future. If everything goes right, I'll be attendig University of Washington's PharmD program. It's about $25K per year, times four years. The doubled interest rate would mean my monthly payment would increase from $984 to $1150. And here's some cynicism: the website I used already had 6.8% as the default rate. It's like they expect Congress to fark this up.


You'll be in grad school so your rate is already 6.8%. The 3.4% is just for undergrads and its just for subsidized loans.
 
2013-06-28 03:37:38 PM
So... they'll go up to the rate I've been paying on mine.

You'll forgive me if I don't start weeping.  Your no-collateral loans for tens of thousands of dollars at a lower rate than pretty much anything else with no real penalty if you don't pay for years at a time will still have a lower rate than you will find for a long damn time.

I learned more about finances and the economy because of my student loans than I ever did in the school itself.
 
2013-06-28 03:37:53 PM

Scythed: In what year do you think the GOP will have alienated so many people to the point where they're no longer viable as a national political party?

I'm thinking sometime around 2025.


I feel alienated by both parties. I feel more alienated by democrats than republicans though.
 
2013-06-28 03:38:50 PM

meyerkev: The problem is that the majority of Republicans are currently True Believers, which means that moderate Republicans get beat in the primaries.


They aren't even the majority, they are just the most active, which is why they keep managing to push through morons in the primaries.  I'd venture a guess that the vast majority of true believers are either retired or unemployed, so they have all the time in the world to vote for everything.
 
2013-06-28 03:43:10 PM

ristst: BetterMetalSnake: How is it that banks STILL get free money, but student loan rate doubles? How is this even an option?

It's called the Golden Rule...y'know, those with the Gold make the Rules.


Notabunny: BetterMetalSnake: How is it that banks STILL get free money, but student loan rate doubles? How is this even an option?

"According to the Congressional Budget Office's latest projections, the federal government projects a record $50-billion profit on student loans this year."


Ugh, those were both so depressing. Factually correct, but depressing. Perhaps today I begin drinking early.
 
2013-06-28 03:50:38 PM

what_now: Mike Chewbacca: farkstorm: It will be necessary to double your income because your $103.40 loan payment for your education will skyrocket all the way up to $106.80.

I'm facing $100K in debt in my future. If everything goes right, I'll be attendig University of Washington's PharmD program. It's about $25K per year, times four years. The doubled interest rate would mean my monthly payment would increase from $984 to $1150. And here's some cynicism: the website I used already had 6.8% as the default rate. It's like they expect Congress to fark this up.

You'll be in grad school so your rate is already 6.8%.


Yes, that part I knew. I was just providing an example with actual numbers instead of letting farkstorm pull some out of his ass.


The 3.4% is just for undergrads and its just for subsidized loans.


I did not know it was just for subsidized loans.
 
2013-06-28 04:29:20 PM
Unsubsidized student loan rates are already at 6.8%.

Stop being pussies and pay your fair share.

/1/10?
 
2013-06-28 04:31:17 PM
The vaunted 13th Amendment does not say anything about voluntary slavery ...

/noose
//your neck
///volunteered
 
2013-06-28 05:03:22 PM
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com

Some students can work a drive-thru AND pay off their loans
 
2013-06-28 05:49:49 PM
Is there some reason the rate on these loans is not just linked to the TIPS rate (or some similar measure), so that we charge students the effective margin regardless of variations in economy?
 
2013-06-28 08:36:30 PM
Oh fark this. I'm just going to go to classes unregistered and get the knowledge and skills I need...uh-oh...
 
2013-06-28 11:34:35 PM
I cant getz affordz loanz becuz intahrest be too hi.

Oh boo hoo hoo.  So don't get a damn loan.  Its not a requirement that you do.  You could.....I don't know...work while going to school perhaps?  That is what I did.  I already had a full time job when I started college and worked 50 hours a week through college.  Sure it limited how many units I could take per semester (usually 12) but I got out not owing anybody anything.
 
2013-06-29 02:09:17 AM

Ima4nic8or: I cant getz affordz loanz becuz intahrest be too hi.

Oh boo hoo hoo.  So don't get a damn loan.  Its not a requirement that you do.  You could.....I don't know...work while going to school perhaps?  That is what I did.  I already had a full time job when I started college and worked 50 hours a week through college.  Sure it limited how many units I could take per semester (usually 12) but I got out not owing anybody anything.


I've had this discussion before.  A single 4 unit class can be 70 hours a week (It's an oddball exception.  Average is 20-30).  You CANNOT work full time at a job that pays $30-35K a year (for in-state college plus board) AND have a useful course schedule in anything that will actually pay on the other side.

/Parents: Here's the deal.  If at all possible, get your kid to government loans only.  If they can't pay for ~$30-35K in debt off that degree, that's a fairly good litmus test for if the degree is worth getting (and if something goes terribly wrong, the government is fairly good about deferrals and income-based repayment etc. while the private loans say "Fark you, I want my money").  If you're so poor as to honestly not be able to pay, your kid will get tons of financial aid and you don't care.  If not, you can afford to pay enough to get them to government loans (or they should be going to a cheaper school.  I couldn't go to Carnegie Mellon.  My sister couldn't afford to go to Northwestern.  We both went to UMich.  I'm doing fine(CS).  We'll see about my sister, because she's still at school for Poli Sci).
//It's just the height of dickery to screw your kid by making enough to fark them over (because financial aid is based on your income) while not actually helping them out some in exchange for screwing them.
 
2013-06-29 09:48:50 AM

Mike Chewbacca: farkstorm: It will be necessary to double your income because your $103.40 loan payment for your education will skyrocket all the way up to $106.80.

I'm facing $100K in debt in my future. If everything goes right, I'll be attendig University of Washington's PharmD program. It's about $25K per year, times four years. The doubled interest rate would mean my monthly payment would increase from $984 to $1150. And here's some cynicism: the website I used already had 6.8% as the default rate. It's like they expect Congress to fark this up.


Unsubsidized loans are already at 6.8%, and as of about a year ago subsidized loans are only available to Undergrad students.
 
2013-06-29 11:07:42 AM

meyerkev: Ima4nic8or: I cant getz affordz loanz becuz intahrest be too hi.

Oh boo hoo hoo.  So don't get a damn loan.  Its not a requirement that you do.  You could.....I don't know...work while going to school perhaps?  That is what I did.  I already had a full time job when I started college and worked 50 hours a week through college.  Sure it limited how many units I could take per semester (usually 12) but I got out not owing anybody anything.

I've had this discussion before.  A single 4 unit class can be 70 hours a week (It's an oddball exception.  Average is 20-30).  You CANNOT work full time at a job that pays $30-35K a year (for in-state college plus board) AND have a useful course schedule in anything that will actually pay on the other side.


I just don't buy the above analysis.  I cant exactly tell you where it is wrong but I can say that I did work through college and managed to schedule classes that paid off on the other side.  While I did drink a fair amount of beer I still remember that much.

Actually I can tell you one place you are wrong. 70 hrs week/unit is a claim that could only be made by a crack smoker. Even 20-30 seems quite high.  I think I put in more like 5 hrs/unit.  While I wasn't a star student I did manage a 3.3 GPA at a state university while taking engineering courses.  The 30-35k number also seems off.  I was making 45-50k when I was in college (no-skill union job - dept supervisor in a bakery) and that was back in the late 90s.  No doubt a similar job would pay more now.  I had a mortgage (2 bed/1ba condo in San Jose) and a car payment and still managed to pay for all of my classes in cash.  Taking in $400/month for renting out the extra room didn't hurt.

While I actually did take a hit in pay upon changing careers post-graduation it was minimal and more than paid off long term.  My pay dropped to 44k/year as an R&D tech but I only stayed there a short time.  Within 6m I switched to a manufacturing engineer position at 55k.  Within 3 years I was at around 75k.

I am not saying getting through college without going into debt is easy but it can be done.  If you don't want to owe, figure out how get through without taking a loan.

By the way 6.8% seems like a pretty reasonable rate.  My first car loan, back in 1988, was 8% and my first home loan was 10.5% in 1989.
 
2013-06-29 12:54:26 PM

Ima4nic8or: meyerkev: Ima4nic8or: I cant getz affordz loanz becuz intahrest be too hi.

Oh boo hoo hoo.  So don't get a damn loan.  Its not a requirement that you do.  You could.....I don't know...work while going to school perhaps?  That is what I did.  I already had a full time job when I started college and worked 50 hours a week through college.  Sure it limited how many units I could take per semester (usually 12) but I got out not owing anybody anything.

I've had this discussion before.  A single 4 unit class can be 70 hours a week (It's an oddball exception.  Average is 20-30).  You CANNOT work full time at a job that pays $30-35K a year (for in-state college plus board) AND have a useful course schedule in anything that will actually pay on the other side.

I just don't buy the above analysis.  I cant exactly tell you where it is wrong but I can say that I did work through college and managed to schedule classes that paid off on the other side.  While I did drink a fair amount of beer I still remember that much.

Actually I can tell you one place you are wrong. 70 hrs week/unit is a claim that could only be made by a crack smoker. Even 20-30 seems quite high.  I think I put in more like 5 hrs/unit.  While I wasn't a star student I did manage a 3.3 GPA at a state university while taking engineering courses.  The 30-35k number also seems off.  I was making 45-50k when I was in college (no-skill union job - dept supervisor in a bakery) and that was back in the late 90s.  No doubt a similar job would pay more now.  I had a mortgage (2 bed/1ba condo in San Jose) and a car payment and still managed to pay for all of my classes in cash.  Taking in $400/month for renting out the extra room didn't hurt.

While I actually did take a hit in pay upon changing careers post-graduation it was minimal and more than paid off long term.  My pay dropped to 44k/year as an R&D tech but I only stayed there a short time.  Within 6m I switched to a manufacturing engineer position at 55k.  Within 3 years I was at around 75k.

I am not saying getting through college without going into debt is easy but it can be done.  If you don't want to owe, figure out how get through without taking a loan.

By the way 6.8% seems like a pretty reasonable rate.  My first car loan, back in 1988, was 8% and my first home loan was 10.5% in 1989.


I take about 15 hours of engineering courses per semester. Those keep me pretty busy. Work through it may have been an acceptable answer when fees were under the average yearly part time earnings but now theyre a lot higher. Good luck saving up 12k a year with bills to pay on minimum wage. The system is set up such that the vast majority have to get loans. Thats a really shiatty system especially when theyre special undischargable loans and the rates keep going up.
 
2013-06-29 01:14:04 PM

Ima4nic8or: meyerkev: Ima4nic8or: I cant getz affordz loanz becuz intahrest be too hi.

Oh boo hoo hoo.  So don't get a damn loan.  Its not a requirement that you do.  You could.....I don't know...work while going to school perhaps?  That is what I did.  I already had a full time job when I started college and worked 50 hours a week through college.  Sure it limited how many units I could take per semester (usually 12) but I got out not owing anybody anything.

I've had this discussion before.  A single 4 unit class can be 70 hours a week (It's an oddball exception.  Average is 20-30).  You CANNOT work full time at a job that pays $30-35K a year (for in-state college plus board) AND have a useful course schedule in anything that will actually pay on the other side.

I just don't buy the above analysis.  I cant exactly tell you where it is wrong but I can say that I did work through college and managed to schedule classes that paid off on the other side.  While I did drink a fair amount of beer I still remember that much.

Actually I can tell you one place you are wrong. 70 hrs week/unit is a claim that could only be made by a crack smoker. Even 20-30 seems quite high.  I think I put in more like 5 hrs/unit.  While I wasn't a star student I did manage a 3.3 GPA at a state university while taking engineering courses.  The 30-35k number also seems off.  I was making 45-50k when I was in college (no-skill union job - dept supervisor in a bakery) and that was back in the late 90s.  No doubt a similar job would pay more now.  I had a mortgage (2 bed/1ba condo in San Jose) and a car payment and still managed to pay for all of my classes in cash.  Taking in $400/month for renting out the extra room didn't hurt.

While I actually did take a hit in pay upon changing careers post-graduation it was minimal and more than paid off long term.  My pay dropped to 44k/year as an R&D tech but I only stayed there a short time.  Within 6m I switched to a manufacturing engineer position at 55k.  Wit ...


Cost: 

So I went and looked it up.  I was off by about 5K.

Umich tuition:  http://www.ro.umich.edu/tuition/tuition-fees.php
Umich room:  http://www.housing.umich.edu/billing/undergrad-rates
Umich board:  http://www.housing.umich.edu/meal-plans

A freshman student in Engineering is on the hook for ~$7K a semester, plus ~$10K in board (plus anywhere from a couple hundred to about a thousand in textbooks depending on just how aboveboard they stay in their acquisition, and any additional cost of living stuff like getting home for Christmas when they lock the dorms or eating outside the official meal plans (and since the official meal plan is only 9 meals/week, you WILL be eating outside the meal plans or getting a more expensive one)).  So lets call it $14K for tuition, $10K for room/board and $2K for everything else college-required, or $26K

An upperclassman Engineering student (defined as 55 credits or more, which I hit after 1 semester because of AP's) is stuck for ~$9K/semester plus ~$10K for dorm plus other cost of living stuff plus not a farking dime in textbooks since an $80 textbook is not worth either skipping or acquiring, while a $400 textbook is and the professors realize that, so they don't assign textbooks unless they gotta or they're industry standards (and as such, they don't count towards college tuition).  So using the same math, but dropping COL to $1K = $29K.

Keep in mind that that doesn't cover "Oh hey, I need a suit for interviewing, and that's gonna start at about $600 once I add in the shoes (because 6'4" people don't buy suits off the rack, and to be fair, I did wear it 27 weekdays in a row my final semester)" or "Oh hey, my computer broke, and now I'm out the next 4 hours hoofing it to the mall and back via the (actually quite good for a bus system) bus system and a few hundred to a couple thousand bucks repairing it" or "Oh hey, I need to buy my own plane ticket to go to this interview and that's $400 I don't have"

/Also, you CAN live off-campus to lower costs, but that implies either spending an hour plus each day hoofing it to North Campus and being at the mercy of the (bad) late-night bus schedule OR owning a car (which requires gas/maintenance/etc) and getting a $400/semester parking pass somewhere near your actual classes.  So I lived in the dorms for 3.5 years because it made sense since my time was more valuable than the colleges money (Unemployed parents.  Milked that into a nearly free ride).
//And I admit that this is somewhat over the top.  Almost any student can get some financial aid, even if it's all loans, and the ones who get screwed by their parents don't go to $28K/year colleges.  They go to Oakland CC.

Time:

So I freely admit that the CE 70-hour class (where you built an entire simulated processor), my CS 60-hour class (C -> C++ -> Awesome stuff I'd never heard of in C++ -> Architecture), and my other CS 40-hour class (because fark PHP with a rusty spoon) were all oddball exceptions.  They were known to be screwed up, but they were screwed up because they taught an astonishing amount of stuff in a short period of time (or as mentioned fark PHP) and were basically required courses to get the really good jobs after leaving college.

There was also a full set of senior design projects, where taking an 8-credit semester consisting of 1 4-credit project class and a couple of 2-hour BS companion courses (averaging maybe 15 hours a week) counted as full time because the classes were just that difficult.

I did a 4 class all-CS semester once after quitting both my jobs and all my extracurriculars and I survived (barely, taking my lowest GPA for a single semester, with multiple stretches of not sleeping for 2-3 days, and by abusing late day policies to start several projects after they were due, but I survived).  With that said, I wasn't terribly functional or maintaining a regular schedule (One of my professors made all of his projects due at 9AM, and another put his exam DURING the last week of projects when everyone was pulling all sorts of allnighters and NOT STUDYING because they HAD FOUR HUGE PROJECTS DUE ON THE SAME DAY. FARK THAT NOISE (Sorry, rage over.  That's the real purpose of exam week, to give you a couple days to utterly crash so you can be rested and focused)), so any actual job I worked at would have fired me for not showing up and/or sleeping on the job.

There's also the question of: "If I spend 30-40 hours coding this project up, but run 3 test cases overnight and the final class-required test case takes 3 days to run, does that runtime count towards this project?"  The people camping out in the computer labs so no one stole their computers and killed their test cases would probably lean towards "Yes".  The people like me who stuck thousands of dollars of hardware into their dorm rooms so that they didn't have to camp out would say "No".

There were also a couple of courses without defined end-states and as such they tended to expand to fill all available time.  So I might spend 100 hours on a project, but I could have been "done" after 40 or so.

/What was really killer for me honestly was juggling job interviews with projects.  A single on-site interview could kill 3 days of otherwise productive work time between flights, losing internet, and having to actually be "dressed up" and "awake before 3 PM".  I once did 5 onsite interviews in 4 cities in 5 days, and looking back at my calendar, I must have been crazy my final semester because it's nothing but wall-to-wall interviews for 2 solid months with 2 week-long breaks for "Everything stop.  Project time".

Jobs:

So assuming that you had a much easier time of college than me, you actually could get a job (and to be fair, I had 2 for a total of 15-20 hours a week before I started taking multiple engineering courses a semester, which paid me about $4K/year (14 weeks a semester * 17.5 hours * $8.50/hour)).  Where?  The places on campus were either unpaid research positions because you were angling for GSI when you went to grad school (full ride plus stipend), or $8.50/hour food service (or very, very few federal work-study funded research positions split 50/50 between the government and the university proper at $8.50/hour).  There were some places off campus, but there just aren't a lot of places that hire 17/18-year olds that are worth being employed at, much less paying the $30K/year after taxes you'd need to afford university.

Now internships are another deal, because starting sophomore year, it's totally possible to get super-awesome "go live in the student slums for 3 months and be boring and net $6K (plus another 3-4K on the tax returns)" internships.  Of course, the problem with that is that you have to make $16-20K to do so, which loses you something like $5K in financial aid*.  Whoops.  And before sophomore year, even crazy levels of OT at $8/hour only makes you like $8K over a summer, which after taxes and transportation pays for textbooks and some cheap beer.
 
2013-06-29 01:24:39 PM
And given that that definitely needs a TL:DR:

Cost: I screwed up by 5K. Mea Culpa.  18-years olds still can't afford 26-29K a year (and it was 23-26K when I started, so by 2018, I'll be correct)
Time: So I was mildly screwed through sophomore year (averaged 2 all-nighters a week, but I had 2 jobs and extracurriculars), and totally screwed junior year onwards when I actually started taking CS courses.
Jobs: Assuming you can overcome time, ain't no job in the midwest that pays 18-year olds $30K a year after taxes (Heck, my 56-year old father at the height of his career was barely getting paid $30K a year after taxes).  Now once you get some experience, you're probably pretty good to net about $8-10K after taxes and necessary expenses (like moving 1000 miles, spending $4000 renting the smallest, shiattiest, most rat-infested apartment you've ever seen for the summer, and then moving back 1000 miles), but that's still a drop in the extremely rat-infested bucket.
 
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