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(ACLU)   Time for this year's Creationism Follies, where your great-grandpa had a pet dinosaur and all fossils came from the Great Flood   (aclu.org) divider line 130
    More: Unlikely, Creationism Follies, apologetics, Creation Museum, certified teacher, community schools, school year, private schools  
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6510 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jun 2013 at 1:57 PM (41 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-28 05:43:04 PM

Kali-Yuga: Vodka Zombie:

You do realize that you don't have to be an atheist to do real science or find creationism ridiculous, right?

But if you aren't, you get to deal with the cognitive dissonance of holding both irrational and rational beliefs, and have to compartmentalize your religious beliefs so the critical thinking skills you use to do "real science" don't ever get applied to your religious delusions.


No you don't. At least I don't.

It's just that you've decided I do, so you tell me I do to validate your own beliefs about the irrationality of religion.

However, I am entirely able to accept all tenets of science, and still believe there might be something greater than man. They're not as mutually exclusive as you seem to insist.
 
2013-06-28 05:44:21 PM

DubtodaIll: Which pub is this where everyone is happy and successful, I'm interested.


It's my local so if I told you where it was, you'd know almost exactly where I live, and fark has rules prohibiting that.  Suffice it to say it is in Seattle.
 
2013-06-28 05:46:05 PM
All of them pigfarker states.  Not really a surprise.

It's 2013.  How is it these fundamentalist shiatholes still exist in an allegedly first-world nation?
 
2013-06-28 05:47:18 PM
DubtodaIll:Slow down there Grumpy. There's plenty of bad things that happen with religion and plenty of bad things that happen without it.

You're right, in a sense, but for otherwise good people to do bad things, that takes religion.

Answer me an honest question. In America are christians responsible for the vast majority of the bigotry, misogyny, and anti-intellectualism that occurs in the present day and has throughout history?

Is it christians or atheists that want to deny civil rights to an entire group of people based on their sexual orientation?
Is it christians or atheists that want to treat women like children who are incapable of making decisions in regards to their own bodies?
Is it christians or atheists that want fairy tales taught as science?
Is it christians or atheists that actively try to revise American history to match with their myths?
Is it christians or atheists that try to pass laws forcing their bronze age morality upon society?
 
2013-06-28 05:55:20 PM
Mock26:  I wonder what all the carnivores ate for 40 days and 40 nights!

They didn't eat. In fact, nothing ate because nothing could survive. In order for it to rain enough to raise sea level ~5000 feet in 40 days, it would have to rain at a rate of 6 inches per hour for the entirety of those 40 days. That would saturate the atmosphere with so much moisture that all living creatures would suffocate/drown.
 
2013-06-28 05:56:45 PM

Gyrfalcon: It's just that you've decided I do, so you tell me I do to validate your own beliefs about the irrationality of religion.


No, because all religious faith is by definition irrational, see Kierkegaard among others. It may seem rational prima facie, but upon any sort of honest reflection any sense or rationality quickly disappears. If people were willing or capable of applying critical thought to their religious delusions, they wouldn't be religious.
 
2013-06-28 05:58:41 PM

kid_icarus: DubtodaIll: Kali-Yuga: DubtodaIll: I really have never understood why fundamentalists see science as a threat to their faith.


Because reason, logic, and critical thought are absolutely poisonous to religious faith.  At least people like Ken Ham are being honest when they claim that if any part of the bible is invalidated, it call into serious question if any of the rest is true.  Most other christians just ignore the obviously nonsense parts of the bible, and cherry pick the parts they agree with.

I don't see how the entire book gets invalidated because there's not exact detail about everything that's happened.  It's not a history book, it's a book to guide you on how to live your life.  And it's easy to take plenty of things out of context but the basic gist of the whole thing is to treat everyone fairly and don't give in to your base desires and instincts as they only satisfy you for that moment and usually bring you more pain in the future.  Use the capacity for reason that you were given to make wise and just decisions.   I don't see how that's not a more attractive and true doctrine than "do everything by the letter or you'll burn in hell for eternity."

Fundamentalists believe the book is literally divine. It was written by God himself and they quote scripture the way a wizard would say an incantation. (pointing out that actual mortal men authored the various books will only get you a response of, "God  inspired their writing so it was actually God writing it".) They believe it's a history book and much, much more. They believe that taking each verse as anything less than absolutely literal is akin to blasphemy.


Yet, they manage to miss the line about how Jesus and his teachings invalidate the first half of the bible.  The whole "new contract" thing.  Guess which half of the bible Genesis is in?
 
2013-06-28 05:59:44 PM

DubtodaIll: It was that act that fulfilled the prophecies from the Old Testament.


Then why did almost all of the Jews of the day reject the idea? Things go so bad for the little death cult they had o open their doors to the gentiles and push almost all of the Jewish-y bits under the bus.
 
2013-06-28 05:59:49 PM

Kali-Yuga: DubtodaIll:Slow down there Grumpy. There's plenty of bad things that happen with religion and plenty of bad things that happen without it.

You're right, in a sense, but for otherwise good people to do bad things, that takes religion.

Answer me an honest question. In America are christians responsible for the vast majority of the bigotry, misogyny, and anti-intellectualism that occurs in the present day and has throughout history?

Is it christians or atheists that want to deny civil rights to an entire group of people based on their sexual orientation?
Is it christians or atheists that want to treat women like children who are incapable of making decisions in regards to their own bodies?
Is it christians or atheists that want fairy tales taught as science?
Is it christians or atheists that actively try to revise American history to match with their myths?
Is it christians or atheists that try to pass laws forcing their bronze age morality upon society?


All Christians, but it's not because of the tenants. If atheism had the numbers of Christianity and vice versa then I would wager the same number of atrocities would be incurred by atheists. Just a side though, asking questions you already have an answer too is awfully religious.
 
2013-06-28 06:09:56 PM

Mock26: FloydA: Mock26: Dear christians, if the story of Noah is true then please explain to me how he managed to get the opossums and groundhogs onto his dinghy?  And how did he get them back to North America?  And what about all the other animals that are not found in the middle east?

My favorite example is the koala.  Not only is there no land route from Mt. Ararat to Australia (and koalas are not good swimmers), they subsist almost entirely on eucalyptus leaves.  There would have to have been a continuous distribution of eucalyptus from the Middle East to Australia, all of which vanished without leaving a single fossil as soon as the koalas made it to Australia.

Only a fool would think the story of Noah's flood was an accurate historical account.

I wonder what all the carnivores ate for 40 days and 40 nights!


That was just the rain. The flood lasted 150 days.
 
2013-06-28 06:14:10 PM

StaleCoffee: DubtodaIll: Speaker2Animals: DubtodaIll: I don't see how the entire book gets invalidated because there's not exact detail about everything that's happened.  It's not a history book, it's a book to guide you on how to live your life.  And it's easy to take plenty of things out of context but the basic gist of the whole thing is to treat everyone fairly and don't give in to your base desires and instincts as they only satisfy you for that moment and usually bring you more pain in the future.

Ha.

[i.imgbox.com image 652x493]

That's all Old Testament, Noah's Covenant stuff.  The New Testament established a new covenant that overrules the orthodoxy of the old testament.

The argument has been thrown both ways but the problem is really with the idea that people pick and choose the hate items they want and conveniently ignore the rest. Chowing down on a Family Values Meal Bacon Platter at Chick Fil A is just jesused enough to not go to hell or something.


Not to mention that the worst of the bible-thumping fundies are all the time pointing to things in the Old Testament to justify their psychotic prejudices. I haven't been there, but I imagine there is very little New Testament in the Creationist Museum. And I posted this a few days ago in another thread, but it's worth repeating.

From Republican Gov. John Kasich, to the Republican House Speaker blocking expansion of Medicaid in Ohio:  "I said, 'I respect the fact that you believe in small government. I do, too. I also know that you're a person of faith. Now, when you die and get to the meeting with St. Peter, he's probably not going to ask you much about what you did about keeping government small. But he is going to ask you what you did for the poor. You better have a good answer.' "
 
2013-06-28 06:14:20 PM

LordJiro: If God had to specifically make humans, that means humans aren't insignificant specks in Earth's history. That allows people to believe that, even if they aren't rich, successful or powerful, they're at least somewhat special.


I am special. My mother told me so. Why is it no enough to be special to your friends and family? Why do they need to be special to the universe? What level of egotism demands that the universe loves them?
 
2013-06-28 06:19:10 PM

StaleCoffee: Chowing down on a Family Values Meal Bacon Platter at Chick Fil A is just jesused enough to not go to hell or something.


During the worst of the ChickFil A anti-gay marriage thing last year, a FB friend gleefully posted a picture from somewhere down South of a massive line of people waiting to get their chicken sandwiches. Another friend asked, "How many of them have ever worked at a food bank or church kitchen, which is something that Jesus actually said to do? I can't recall him ever talking about getting your chicken sandwiches in a certain place."
 
2013-06-28 06:19:47 PM
And it felt good to de-friend her after that.
 
2013-06-28 06:54:26 PM

King Something: 6 inches of rain per minute, worldwide, over a period of forty days. Sea level increasing by an inch every ten seconds.

Two of every creature -- including ants and anteaters; penguins, platypi and poison dart frogs; ocelots, panthers and possum; Iriomote cats, Komodo dragons and Monitor lizards; lions and tigers and bears (oh my!); African elephants, Asian elephants and South American three-toed sloths -- on board a ship built by an old guy and his three sons. A ship as tall, as long and half as wide as a small football stadium, made entirely out of wood. Plus 40 days' worth of food for everyone.

Those creatures were able to be herded onto the ship despite the general majority of them not living within walking distance of the old man's house or drydock.

The menagerie and the ship were maintained by the old guy, his wife, his sons and their wives for over a month and a half -- a team of eight people without a day of zoological, nautical or shipbuilding experience between them, living in a time when four of them could not even get any such experience in the first place.


Plus said ship floating around at an altitude roughly 20 meters higher than the peak of Mt. Everest, well into the death zone, without any kind of specialized gear and yet not suffering anoxia, pulmonary edema, cerebral edema, or hypoxic pulmonary vasoconstriction.
 
2013-06-28 06:59:39 PM

Diagonal: King Something: 6 inches of rain per minute, worldwide, over a period of forty days. Sea level increasing by an inch every ten seconds.

Two of every creature -- including ants and anteaters; penguins, platypi and poison dart frogs; ocelots, panthers and possum; Iriomote cats, Komodo dragons and Monitor lizards; lions and tigers and bears (oh my!); African elephants, Asian elephants and South American three-toed sloths -- on board a ship built by an old guy and his three sons. A ship as tall, as long and half as wide as a small football stadium, made entirely out of wood. Plus 40 days' worth of food for everyone.

Those creatures were able to be herded onto the ship despite the general majority of them not living within walking distance of the old man's house or drydock.

The menagerie and the ship were maintained by the old guy, his wife, his sons and their wives for over a month and a half -- a team of eight people without a day of zoological, nautical or shipbuilding experience between them, living in a time when four of them could not even get any such experience in the first place.

Plus said ship floating around at an altitude roughly 20 meters higher than the peak of Mt. Everest, well into the death zone, without any kind of specialized gear and yet not suffering anoxia, pulmonary edema, cerebral edema, or hypoxic pulmonary vasoconstriction.


Hypoxic pulmonary vasoconstriction isn't in the Bible so there's no way they could suffer from it. But if the water level rose, wouldn't the oxygen get pushed up as well? I mean they would have been at sea level the whole time.
 
2013-06-28 07:01:56 PM

Charlie Chingas: You're a funny lot. Looking forward to hearing all your screams in Hell from mine comfy chair up in Heaven.


Yeah...something tells me that your position in heaven isn't quite as assured as you think, Pharisee.
 
2013-06-28 08:20:34 PM

Summercat: Charlie Chingas: You're a funny lot. Looking forward to hearing all your screams in Hell from mine comfy chair up in Heaven.

Screams of pleasure, maybe :D


He's expressed strong criticism of organized religion in other threads.  He pretty much has to be trolling.
 
2013-06-28 08:37:18 PM

Kali-Yuga: DubtodaIll:Slow down there Grumpy. There's plenty of bad things that happen with religion and plenty of bad things that happen without it.

You're right, in a sense, but for otherwise good people to do bad things, that takes religion.

Answer me an honest question. In America are christians responsible for the vast majority of the bigotry, misogyny, and anti-intellectualism that occurs in the present day and has throughout history?

Is it christians or atheists that want to deny civil rights to an entire group of people based on their sexual orientation?
Is it christians or atheists that want to treat women like children who are incapable of making decisions in regards to their own bodies?
Is it christians or atheists that want fairy tales taught as science?
Is it christians or atheists that actively try to revise American history to match with their myths?
Is it christians or atheists that try to pass laws forcing their bronze age morality upon society?


Well, in America, Christians have only been able to do that for the time that there's been an America, so that would only be for the past 350 years or so. And "throughout history" Christians have only been able to do that since Christianity has been the ascendant religion; that would only be since Emperor Constantine made it the state religion of Rome in the 4th Century AD, or about 1700 years.

And even that period is overlapped with another religion, Islam, which does all the things you biatch about Christianity doing (except the Bronze Age thing; they were an Iron Age religion), but much more successfully, since the Mongols embraced Islam and took it all over Asia. Oh, and Islam wasn't any more accepting of science than Christianity, btw, except for a brief period in the 10th and 11th centuries when their medicine and mathematics were considerably more advanced than in the West; after that, they were just as bad as their Christian brethren.

At least be consistent about your hate for religion.
 
2013-06-28 08:50:58 PM

DubtodaIll: FloydA: DubtodaIll:

It's all about Blood.  The favor God showed to Cane over Able

You will probably want to re-read that part.

Yeah I saw that after I posted.  It's all about the favor God showed to Gable over Zane.


Anne of Green Gables has a whole new meaning for me now.
 
2013-06-28 08:54:13 PM

Speaker2Animals: DubtodaIll: I don't see how the entire book gets invalidated because there's not exact detail about everything that's happened.  It's not a history book, it's a book to guide you on how to live your life.  And it's easy to take plenty of things out of context but the basic gist of the whole thing is to treat everyone fairly and don't give in to your base desires and instincts as they only satisfy you for that moment and usually bring you more pain in the future.

Ha.

i.imgbox.com


Ok, while I don't think anything should be banned out right, most of these are just good ideas, many given a time when refrigeration didn't exist, staying clear of women on the rag is always a good idea
 
2013-06-28 09:15:17 PM
Gyrfalcon:

At least be consistent about your hate for religion.

Absolutely, christianity is just as ridiculous and dangerous to humanity as islam, hinduism, $cientology, or any other mythology people actually take seriously.  Christianity just happens to be the dominant religion in America so it is the one that affects most of the people posting here on a daily basis.

In fact, I'll go one step farther and say that all authoritarian and totalitarian philosophies and systems of government are bad. It just so happens that religion is one of the oldest and most authoritarian power structure there is.
 
2013-06-28 09:36:50 PM
mizchief: [blah blah blah]

i105.photobucket.com
Which point do you disagree with? Pick a number between 1 and 14.
 
2013-06-28 10:00:02 PM

Mock26: FloydA: Mock26: Dear christians, if the story of Noah is true then please explain to me how he managed to get the opossums and groundhogs onto his dinghy?  And how did he get them back to North America?  And what about all the other animals that are not found in the middle east?

My favorite example is the koala.  Not only is there no land route from Mt. Ararat to Australia (and koalas are not good swimmers), they subsist almost entirely on eucalyptus leaves.  There would have to have been a continuous distribution of eucalyptus from the Middle East to Australia, all of which vanished without leaving a single fossil as soon as the koalas made it to Australia.

Only a fool would think the story of Noah's flood was an accurate historical account.

I wonder what all the carnivores ate for 40 days and 40 nights!


Well, Isaiah 11:6 says, "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them" (which is often misquoted as "the lion shall lie down with the lamb"), so presumably God has the power to make carnivores vegetarian.  Plus there was the whole loaves and fishes miracle.  I'd say if you're willing to believe the rest of the Bible, how Noah fed all the animals doesn't provide any real difficulty.
 
2013-06-28 10:14:52 PM
How can someone be so farking stupid!? Honestly every time I read about creationism I just cannot believe that people (who aren't very young child or retarded) actually believe that God magically created all life about six thousand years ago, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. To paraphrase Louis Black, yeah I have a counter argument against creationism, FOSSILS, FOSSILS, FOSSILS, I WIN!

It makes me sick whenever I hear about idiots teaching kids this garbage and passing it off as science. We're in the 21st century for god sakes, not the dark ages, turn on the freaking lights!
 
2013-06-28 11:28:30 PM

sandbar67: You'd think that they would have mentioned dinosaurs somewhere in the Bible.

[i4.ytimg.com image 480x360]


Pfft...clearly, you've never read the Bible, heathen. Job (40:15-24), for one, talks about the "behemoth":

15Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
19He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
20Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
21He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
22The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
23Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
24He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.


/seriously, tho, that's considered a reference to dinosaurs among creationists, if you wondered. There's another passage in Job about the "leviathan"
 
2013-06-29 09:30:18 AM
Here in TN, they have taken steps though new legislation to allow creationism back into the classroom.  This law turns the clock back nearly 100 years here in the seemingly unprogressive South and is simply embarrassing. There is no argument against the Theory of Evolution other than that of religious doctrine. The Monkey Law only opens the door for fanatic Christianity to creep its way back into our classrooms. You can see my visual response as a Tennessean to this absurd law on my artist's blog at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2012/04/pulpit-in-classroom-biblic a l-agenda-in.html with some evolutionary art and a little bit of simple logic.
 
2013-06-29 10:58:02 AM

dregstudios: Here in TN, they have taken steps though new legislation to allow creationism back into the classroom.  This law turns the clock back nearly 100 years here in the seemingly unprogressive South and is simply embarrassing. There is no argument against the Theory of Evolution other than that of religious doctrine. The Monkey Law only opens the door for fanatic Christianity to creep its way back into our classrooms. You can see my visual response as a Tennessean to this absurd law on my artist's blog at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2012/04/pulpit-in-classroom-biblic a l-agenda-in.html with some evolutionary art and a little bit of simple logic.


Inherit the Wind II: Electric Boogaloo
 
2013-06-29 12:54:59 PM

Kali-Yuga: DubtodaIll: I really have never understood why fundamentalists see science as a threat to their faith.


Because reason, logic, and critical thought are absolutely poisonous to religious faith.  At least people like Ken Ham are being honest when they claim that if any part of the bible is invalidated, it call into serious question if any of the rest is true.  Most other christians just ignore the obviously nonsense parts of the bible, and cherry pick the parts they agree with.


That's retarded. Who would've thought that a book of parables starts with, you guessed it, a parable.
 
2013-06-29 11:02:30 PM

DubtodaIll: The further down that philosophcial rabbit hole you go the more you realize that there's no way to prove anything with 100% certainly so that's always a mind-fark.


While absolute certainty is impossible outside abstract mathematics, assessing relative probabilities is possible... at least, once you have enough abstract language for talking basic arithmatic.

DubtodaIll: I really have never understood why fundamentalists see science as a threat to their faith. Is it really that hard to accept the stories of Creation as a "rough guess" kind of thing?


If you're interested in the psychology, there's some Ken Ham lectures on-line which discuss one apparently popular (or at least widely marketed with relatively high sales in the homeschooling market) sort of reasoning. Oversimplifying and possibly misconstruing his gist, the core of the Christian faith is salvation through Christ's sacrifice; but without the Fall, there wasn't a need; so, they require a literal interpretation of Genesis, which is inconsistent with the implications of various bits of science such as modern genetics (EG: no bottlenecks in human population narrower than 1000 people in the last 100000 years). Without that being literally true, the core of their religion is meaningless.

There's also some ties to the black-and-white attitude on "authority", which your "100% certainty" seems reminiscent of.
 
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