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(Washington Post)   NSA head sends memo to employees, urging them not to be distracted from their vital and honorable work of spying on the American people   (washingtonpost.com ) divider line
    More: Misc, NSA, memoranda, personnel management, Government Accountability Project, secret documents, Office of Personnel Management  
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3941 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jun 2013 at 12:29 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-28 01:35:21 PM  
bipartisanship on this issue consists of Obama apologists and republican chicken hawks.
 
2013-06-28 01:43:45 PM  
Are there any Americans of "normal" intelligence that think any terrorist organization anywhere uses G-Mail, Twitter, or Skype for communication? Is this the wrong place to ask this?

Yes, some amateurs might use those services, amateurs like the Boston bombers. You see how they were stopped.
 
2013-06-28 01:45:05 PM  

Old_Fark: Are there any Americans of "normal" intelligence


No.  We're all f**king idiots.
 
2013-06-28 01:47:23 PM  

WhoopAssWayne: Skleenar: There IS a difference.

Keep telling yourself there's a difference, dumbass. You and the other liberal scumbags are whitewashing the very crimes you once protested against, you damn well know it, and it's eating you up inside to know you're a fraud, as it damn well should. Keep whitewashing these criminals you piece of sh*t.


There is a difference.  I am not saying that one is good and the other bad, but one is certainly better than the alternative.  If the executive declares itself above the law, then you are really throwing out any notion of democracy or the rule of law.  If, however, the government conducts itself in accordance with law and legal principles, then we have an opportunity to change or at least influence the behavior.

I don't really feel comfortable with the latitude that FISA grants to the NSA, nor to the level of intrusion codified into law under the Patriot Act.   And I think that the attention should be on reforming those aspects of the legal environment we've created.  That is until a violation of these laws and regulations is exposed, in which case the NSA would be seen to be acting extra-legally and should absolutely be brought to heel.
 
2013-06-28 01:51:35 PM  

lostcat: hasty ambush:
I have no problem with a government that spies on foreigners, other governments (even "allies"), external threats etc. . If fact I expect them to do that an would consider them negligent if they did not do so.
It is the domestic spying absent probable cause and warrants I have a problem with.


But you do acknowledge that some of the people who intend to do harm to the US are actually in the US, legally, and are regularly communicating with accomplices and handlers outside of the US, right?

How do you propose that the governement maintain awareness of those threats, which seem much more relavant than what some foreigner on another continent is doing?


Through the Constitution.  Establish probable cause, obtain a warrant, establish innocence or guilt through due process etc.  What exactly is the point of defending the Constitution  ( a document fark progressives are quick to point out was written by old, rich, slave owning, white guys) form these threats if you are going to ignore it?

I am willing to risk the miniscule (in terms of percentage of it happening to me) chance of being subject to a domestic attack in return for not having my rights trampled in the name of protecting them.  Heck I am even willing to risk you or even children be being attacked before doing damage to the Constitution.

Same thing applies to my second amendment rights etc, etc.

I even support the overturning of the DOMA not because I believe there is a right to marry but because I don't believe it is the role of the Federal Government to define marriage, it is not among its enumerated powers.  It is a state issue.
 
2013-06-28 01:56:26 PM  
I don't know the exact details of what this Snowden fellow leaked but from what I understand it basically amounted to "They have access to a database of call data and internet activity". Most people should know this already and any would be terrorist/criminal with half a brain should know this already. How exactly has this compromised national security? If he leaked details of ongoing investigations that might have tipped of the perps I could understand the outrage and would probably take part in it but if this drives any nefarious wrongdoers further underground they are too stupid to execute their plans or too stupid not to get caught anyway. In fact it might scare people who didn't know this crap considering doing something assholish to reconsider things and just stick to writing angry letters to the editor.

Seems to me this is all about people on both sides of the debate make the other side look bad. Look... you cheered as you were stripped of your rights to privacy. You signed those internet/phone service providers EULAs. You willingly post your personal data, pictures and every dumb assed thought that runs through your head onto these easily accessible databases. Don't get your knickers in a twist over it now. This has been going on for ages.

If you are that concerned about it read the privacy statements of EVERY communications service you sign up for and conduct yourself accordingly and/or push for the laws and corporate policies currently in place to be changed.

This is the way the world is now. If you want to participate in all the benefits of the digital information age then you kind of have to realize the implications of that participation. It'd be like walking around downtown in a busy city with a giant billboard screaming and ringing a bell except amplified by a gazillionty. YOU choose what you put on that billboard. Choose wisely.
And no... I don't like it one bit either. Tough titties for me.
 
2013-06-28 01:58:16 PM  

mahoggin: Wait a minute...

[i288.photobucket.com image 694x530]


yes! that guy
 
2013-06-28 01:59:50 PM  
WhoopAssWayne:  You and many others went to the streets to protest these crimes when someone else was in office, and now you're propping them up, you piece of sh*t scumbag.

But apparently you didn't go out and protest. Or do anything else but lie there take it in your poop chute. So that begs the question....Why do you support the government illegally spying on its citizens? Why didn't you stand up and defend the Constitution, you piece of sh*t scumbag?
 
2013-06-28 02:09:35 PM  

WhoopAssWayne: Skleenar: There IS a difference.

Keep telling yourself there's a difference, dumbass. You and the other liberal scumbags are whitewashing the very crimes you once protested against, you damn well know it, and it's eating you up inside to know you're a fraud, as it damn well should. Keep whitewashing these criminals you piece of sh*t.


WAW where you this angry when W did this ?

and was Skleenar this indifferent or unexcited by it it when W did it / initiated it all?

personally, I think Skleenar, you are a bit too trusting that the government won't / doesn't already abuse this and other powers.

WAW - you seem tense
 
2013-06-28 02:11:47 PM  

Pants full of macaroni!!: Old_Fark: Are there any Americans of "normal" intelligence

No.  We're all f**king idiots.


That's pretty much what it looks like from overseas.
 
2013-06-28 02:26:42 PM  

inner ted: personally, I think Skleenar, you are a bit too trusting that the government won't / doesn't already abuse this and other powers.


I'm actually pretty sure that the Gov't abuses this power.  I actually believe that the current function of the FISA court is an abuse.  One that, unfortunately, is really, REALLY tough to get an independent constitutional test applied to, given the nature of the secrecy involved.

But it's an abuse that existed long before Snowden decided he was outraged, and dates back to at least the previous administration but probably even before then.

It does little I think, to scream "TRAITOR" or "TYRANT", about these things, other than to blow off a little steam.  I think that specific revelations of concrete violations of law are needed to get direct action, or else we need to significantly change Congress's opinion on these matters.

And, of course, I believe little "a" abuses occur with some frequency--i.e. the odd agent tapping his ex-gf's e-mail or some such.  Human nature being what it is, there likely is some of this that goes around.  But I do believe that the institutional incentives of the NSA and other agencies are to discourage this sort of abuse, and that much of their internal auditing is done to target this sort of activity.
 
2013-06-28 03:15:22 PM  

Skleenar: inner ted: personally, I think Skleenar, you are a bit too trusting that the government won't / doesn't already abuse this and other powers.

I'm actually pretty sure that the Gov't abuses this power.  I actually believe that the current function of the FISA court is an abuse.  One that, unfortunately, is really, REALLY tough to get an independent constitutional test applied to, given the nature of the secrecy involved.

But it's an abuse that existed long before Snowden decided he was outraged, and dates back to at least the previous administration but probably even before then.

It does little I think, to scream "TRAITOR" or "TYRANT", about these things, other than to blow off a little steam.  I think that specific revelations of concrete violations of law are needed to get direct action, or else we need to significantly change Congress's opinion on these matters.

And, of course, I believe little "a" abuses occur with some frequency--i.e. the odd agent tapping his ex-gf's e-mail or some such.  Human nature being what it is, there likely is some of this that goes around.  But I do believe that the institutional incentives of the NSA and other agencies are to discourage this sort of abuse, and that much of their internal auditing is done to target this sort of activity.


I don't believe the issue of oversight has or ever will go away, but until such time as the various branches of government start to find some way through all the petty partisan politics stagnating Washington, an overhaul of the Patriot Act and oversight practices are a long ways from realization regardless of public pressure.
 
2013-06-28 03:29:26 PM  

bindlestiff2600: well back when i was naive
i thought they spied on the "bad" people


How does one identify who is "bad" without observation?  A traffic cop, tasked with maintaining rule of law on the roads,  will sit at a speed trap measuring the speed of every car that passes by.  Is this illegal surveillance?
Now, an organization tasked with monitoring this nation's electronic communications gathers a list of what phone numbers connected to which other phone numbers, and the duration of the call.  This isn't personal, private information, much as you may wish it was.  The only entity this information belongs to is the phone company, and it is business data (how else can they keep track of your minutes used, or international calling charges accrued).  This isn't even targeted collection, it's aggregate data, so they aren't singling out any one number.
 
2013-06-28 04:09:51 PM  

vudukungfu: I highly encourage all American citizens to piss on the NSA, DHS, and TSA, literally, and figuratively at any chance.


*pumps fist*
 
2013-06-28 04:15:38 PM  
 
2013-06-28 04:20:28 PM  

inner ted: WAW where you this angry when W did this ?


When did W campaign on this being wrong and promise to end it?

W always said it was a good thing.

It was Obama who lied when he claimed to be opposed to it.
 
2013-06-28 04:32:34 PM  
There was a new charge on my Verizon bill last week. No explanation. Surveillance fee?
 
2013-06-28 04:40:09 PM  

BullBearMS: inner ted: WAW where you this angry when W did this ?

When did W campaign on this being wrong and promise to end it?

W always said it was a good thing.

It was Obama who lied when he claimed to be opposed to it.


i don't believe W thought it wrong in the slightest

but WAW sure seems to not care for it now, so i just wonder if he was as opposed to it back then
 
2013-06-28 04:40:50 PM  

BullBearMS: NY Times on why the NSA programs are illegal:

The two programs violate both the letter and the spirit of federal law. No statute explicitly authorizes mass surveillance. Through a series of legal contortions, the Obama administration has argued that Congress, since 9/11, intended to implicitly authorize mass surveillance. But this strategy mostly consists of wordplay, fear-mongering and a highly selective reading of the law. Americans deserve better from the White House - and from President Obama, who has seemingly forgotten the constitutional law he once taught.

The administration has defended each of the two secret programs. Let's examine them in turn.


Well put.
 
2013-06-28 04:42:07 PM  

BullBearMS: inner ted: WAW where you this angry when W did this ?

When did W campaign on this being wrong and promise to end it?

W always said it was a good thing.

It was Obama who lied when he claimed to be opposed to it.


So why isn't the GOP nailing his ass on this?
 
2013-06-28 05:00:29 PM  
You'll be fine. Just as long as you don't raise your voice/protest/get in a position of power that might endanger the status quo.

As long as you are a quiet little civilian, do as you are told, keep your voice down, and trust the Government, your google searches for that weird/vaguely legal stuff you looked for, or that someone did on your computer, will stay there, never truly bothering you.
 
2013-06-28 05:16:08 PM  

mrshowrules: BullBearMS: inner ted: WAW where you this angry when W did this ?

When did W campaign on this being wrong and promise to end it?

W always said it was a good thing.

It was Obama who lied when he claimed to be opposed to it.

So why isn't the GOP nailing his ass on this?


Because, unlike Obama, the GOP leadership wasn't lying about their position on this.

They wholeheartedly approve of warrantless spying on everybody and aren't going to pretend otherwise for political points when doing so might endanger the warrentless spying they desire.
 
2013-06-28 05:51:38 PM  

Skleenar: WhoopAssWayne: You damn right you'll get shouted down you government-paid traitor.

"That means no more illegal wire-tapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists. The FISA court works. The separation of powers works. Our Constitution works. We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary." - Senator Barack Obama, August, 2007

I highly doubt Corvus is a government paid traitor, if such a thing could exist.

The bolded stuff is what is important about what BO said.  He was specifically protesting the Bush-era abuses of putting the NSA beyond the purview of the FISA court.  There is nothing here that suggests that BO is saying that FISA supervised surveillance of US citizens is improper or illegal.

You can argue differently about FISA, and it's probably a good argument to have, but this really doesn't show any gross hypocrisy on BO's part.


Except of course, President Obama continued all of these so-called "abuses".  So which was he lying about--that they were actually abuses, or that he was sincere about ending them?
 
2013-06-28 06:11:36 PM  
pbs.twimg.com
 
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