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(Schneier on Security)   Remember way back in 1997 when the NSA thought it was un-American to spy on Americans? Neither do we   (schneier.com) divider line 67
    More: Sad, NSA, Americans  
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1517 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Jun 2013 at 11:31 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-27 08:32:31 PM  
You know, both of those quotes could be said with absolute conviction today. The NSA may have no interest in spying on American citizens, that does not mean they do not want the capability of intercepting intelligence even if it comes from a domestic, non-US citizen, source.
 
2013-06-27 09:43:08 PM  

nmrsnr: You know, both of those quotes could be said with absolute conviction today. The NSA may have no interest in spying on American citizens, that does not mean they do not want the capability of intercepting intelligence even if it comes from a domestic, non-US citizen, source.


Exactly

The DOD would prefer not to have a gigantic nuclear arsenal that would destroy the places the generals like to visit and planet on which they inhabit, but that won't stop them for having enough nukes to level the face of the entire planet.
 
2013-06-27 10:19:17 PM  
I always thought the NSA was forbidden from listening to any domestic communications, just like the CIA is expressly forbidden from conducting any operations on US soil (hence why the FBI and CIA clashed for decades.)

Amazing what one terrorist attack will do.

Scared little children. Willing to give up the core beliefs of America for absolutely no security.
 
2013-06-27 11:34:46 PM  
If they're listening in on me, I hope they like fart jokes.
 
2013-06-27 11:42:56 PM  
COINTELPRO

/look it up
 
2013-06-27 11:55:04 PM  
The NSA was *founded* to do intra-border surveillance. CIA did extra-border surveillance.

I'm gonna say someone was "saying the right thing" in 1997, not necessarily following through.
 
2013-06-28 12:00:16 AM  
9/11 changed everything.  EVERYTHING.
 
2013-06-28 12:02:29 AM  
Clinton let a lot of shiat happen on his watch.

I got sick of him. I voted Nader in '96.

And Clinton was nothing like Obama. Although both behaved cautiously in their politics, Obama actually accomplished things.
 
2013-06-28 12:11:47 AM  
Thinks they're slackers
www.biography.com
 
2013-06-28 12:15:05 AM  

dookdookdook: 9/11 changed everything.  EVERYTHING.


Pooping one's pants in fear tends to lead to a change of pants.

/was that deep or what?
 
2013-06-28 12:15:49 AM  
Cool blog.
 
2013-06-28 12:19:35 AM  

sendtodave: dookdookdook: 9/11 changed everything.  EVERYTHING.

Pooping one's pants in fear tends to lead to a change of pants.


Not for those who wish to wallow in it.
 
2013-06-28 12:21:37 AM  

bwilson27: sendtodave: dookdookdook: 9/11 changed everything.  EVERYTHING.

Pooping one's pants in fear tends to lead to a change of pants.

Not for those who wish to wallow in it.


But enough about draft dodging...
 
2013-06-28 12:22:55 AM  

nmrsnr: You know, both of those quotes could be said with absolute conviction today. The NSA may have no interest in spying on American citizens, that does not mean they do not want the capability of intercepting intelligence even if it comes from a domestic, non-US citizen, source.


Have you been on planet dumbass since 2001? It's been fairly extensively documented over the years that the U.S. has been spying on its own citizens.
 
2013-06-28 12:25:02 AM  
The problem with this whole thing is a lack of trust.  The NSA could say "We continue to value civil liberties, we don't spy on our own people, we have some standards," and no one would believe them.

Or, rather, those inclined to not believe them wouldn't believe them.  And those included to trust them would still trust them.  And so, the whole thing still boils down to those that trust the government, and those that don't.

Snowden gave ammo to those that don't trust the government.  Those that support the government aren't happy about this.
 
2013-06-28 12:37:09 AM  

1derful: nmrsnr: You know, both of those quotes could be said with absolute conviction today. The NSA may have no interest in spying on American citizens, that does not mean they do not want the capability of intercepting intelligence even if it comes from a domestic, non-US citizen, source.

Have you been on planet dumbass since 2001? It's been fairly extensively documented over the years that the U.S. has been spying on its own citizens.


Source?  I follow this issue pretty well, almost always the initial reporting is heavily sensationalized and misleading, then nobody reads the follow-up.

"Warrantless wiretapping" - the Bush administration decided it didn't need warrants to listen to the suspected terrorist's side of a suspected terrorist-to-American conversation.  It was invoked 17 times.

PRISM - not actually a datamining operation, actually a program that streamlined and standardized an information retrieval process for issuing FISA warrants and national security letters to select large tech companies.

Verizon metadata - Depersonalized metadata, which has been decided to be property of phone companies, not the customer, were given to the NSA for traffic analysis.  It cannot be linked to any American without a warrant to go about discovering that information.

The media and the internet like to shiat their pants and scream over the NSA violating their civil liberties, but to my mind they just end up looking like old people standing around DC with tea bags hanging off their tri-corn hats rambling about death panels and the Muslim brotherhood.
 
2013-06-28 12:37:35 AM  
side note
i would expect that the people at the level of NSA

cannot be spied upon themselves
 
2013-06-28 12:37:40 AM  

1derful: Have you been on planet dumbass since 2001? It's been fairly extensively documented over the years that the U.S. has been spying on its own citizens.


Intentionally? As in, their target was an American citizen?

The quotes didn't say that they couldn't spy on you or that they weren't spying on you in 1997, only that they weren't interested in spying on you. The director of the NSA could, with complete conviction, say the he isn't in the slightest bit interested in spying on you and knowing your porn viewing habits, that doesn't mean they can't and it doesn't mean they don't as part of their greater mission, it just means it's not part of the job he cares about.
 
2013-06-28 12:51:09 AM  
 
2013-06-28 01:03:06 AM  
What changed?

What's changed is us. People believe the government is spying. So some kid who releases some documents with "Top Secret" stamped on them and tells us the government is spying on everyone. Never mind that the documents don't actually support what he says. Never mind that the few details of his statement that can be confirmed turn out to be exaggerations at best, lies at worst. That doesn't matter. He told us what we want to hear, and that's all that matters.
 
2013-06-28 01:04:02 AM  
Clinton's fault! Drink!
 
2013-06-28 01:05:05 AM  
www.schneier.com
I luv long walks on the beach
and cuddling.
and Anal, not you, me.
torment my bungus with large heirloom
Squashes.

kthxbi
\dude looks like he needs to take a seat over there
 
2013-06-28 01:06:16 AM  

ZipSplat: 1derful: nmrsnr: You know, both of those quotes could be said with absolute conviction today. The NSA may have no interest in spying on American citizens, that does not mean they do not want the capability of intercepting intelligence even if it comes from a domestic, non-US citizen, source.

Have you been on planet dumbass since 2001? It's been fairly extensively documented over the years that the U.S. has been spying on its own citizens.

Source?  I follow this issue pretty well, almost always the initial reporting is heavily sensationalized and misleading, then nobody reads the follow-up.

"Warrantless wiretapping" - the Bush administration decided it didn't need warrants to listen to the suspected terrorist's side of a suspected terrorist-to-American conversation.  It was invoked 17 times.

PRISM - not actually a datamining operation, actually a program that streamlined and standardized an information retrieval process for issuing FISA warrants and national security letters to select large tech companies.

Verizon metadata - Depersonalized metadata, which has been decided to be property of phone companies, not the customer, were given to the NSA for traffic analysis.  It cannot be linked to any American without a warrant to go about discovering that information.

The media and the internet like to shiat their pants and scream over the NSA violating their civil liberties, but to my mind they just end up looking like old people standing around DC with tea bags hanging off their tri-corn hats rambling about death panels and the Muslim brotherhood.


I'm not sure you follow this issue pretty well if you think a FISA warrant is a product of meaningful judicial review of specific circumstances justifying a specific search. Fisa court oversight: a look inside a secret and empty process
 
2013-06-28 01:11:09 AM  

maniacbastard: \dude looks like he needs to take a seat over there


Bruce Schneier is a very prolific and respected cryptographer.  He also sometimes rambles on the internet about how he thinks the government might be reading his e-mail, and that since it's unlikely that someone would try to sneak a bomb, blade, etc  through a TSA checkpoint designed to detect such things, then TSA checkpoints must be entirely impotent because in their presence not a single attack has been thwarted.
 
2013-06-28 01:11:28 AM  

Nem Wan: I'm not sure you follow this issue pretty well if you think a FISA warrant is a product of meaningful judicial review of specific circumstances justifying a specific search. Fisa court oversight: a look inside a secret and empty process


It's completely opaque, and that's how we know exactly how it works.

Wait, what?
 
2013-06-28 01:13:44 AM  

ZipSplat: maniacbastard: \dude looks like he needs to take a seat over there

Bruce Schneier is a very prolific and respected cryptographer.  He also sometimes rambles on the internet about how he thinks the government might be reading his e-mail, and that since it's unlikely that someone would try to sneak a bomb, blade, etc  through a TSA checkpoint designed to detect such things, then TSA checkpoints must be entirely impotent because in their presence not a single attack has been thwarted.


That's really a counterfactual, isn't it? How many successful attacks have there been on aircraft in the U.S. since the TSA took over screening?

TSA is transportation security theater, but the assertion they've not thwarted a single attack is impossible to prove.
 
2013-06-28 01:15:35 AM  

Nem Wan: ZipSplat: 1derful: nmrsnr: You know, both of those quotes could be said with absolute conviction today. The NSA may have no interest in spying on American citizens, that does not mean they do not want the capability of intercepting intelligence even if it comes from a domestic, non-US citizen, source.

Have you been on planet dumbass since 2001? It's been fairly extensively documented over the years that the U.S. has been spying on its own citizens.

Source?  I follow this issue pretty well, almost always the initial reporting is heavily sensationalized and misleading, then nobody reads the follow-up.

"Warrantless wiretapping" - the Bush administration decided it didn't need warrants to listen to the suspected terrorist's side of a suspected terrorist-to-American conversation.  It was invoked 17 times.

PRISM - not actually a datamining operation, actually a program that streamlined and standardized an information retrieval process for issuing FISA warrants and national security letters to select large tech companies.

Verizon metadata - Depersonalized metadata, which has been decided to be property of phone companies, not the customer, were given to the NSA for traffic analysis.  It cannot be linked to any American without a warrant to go about discovering that information.

The media and the internet like to shiat their pants and scream over the NSA violating their civil liberties, but to my mind they just end up looking like old people standing around DC with tea bags hanging off their tri-corn hats rambling about death panels and the Muslim brotherhood.

I'm not sure you follow this issue pretty well if you think a FISA warrant is a product of meaningful judicial review of specific circumstances justifying a specific search. Fisa court oversight: a look inside a secret and empty process


Oh look, an article by Glenn Greenwald on the FISA court.  You know, Glenn Greenwald, the guy who farked up the Snowden reporting in the first place by reporting his opinion of what was going on as fact.  And lookie here, he's doing it again.
 
2013-06-28 01:18:58 AM  

Ricardo Klement: ZipSplat: maniacbastard: \dude looks like he needs to take a seat over there

Bruce Schneier is a very prolific and respected cryptographer.  He also sometimes rambles on the internet about how he thinks the government might be reading his e-mail, and that since it's unlikely that someone would try to sneak a bomb, blade, etc  through a TSA checkpoint designed to detect such things, then TSA checkpoints must be entirely impotent because in their presence not a single attack has been thwarted.

That's really a counterfactual, isn't it? How many successful attacks have there been on aircraft in the U.S. since the TSA took over screening?

TSA is transportation security theater, but the assertion they've not thwarted a single attack is impossible to prove.


Yes, it's a dumb argument.  I hate the TSA and the stupid checkpoints as well, but people make the dumbest arguments (as above) against them.  "Not a single prisoner has escaped that prison by climbing over the wall.  As such, we should stop wasting money on maintaining that wall."
 
2013-06-28 01:29:38 AM  

ZipSplat: Ricardo Klement: ZipSplat: maniacbastard: \dude looks like he needs to take a seat over there

Bruce Schneier is a very prolific and respected cryptographer.  He also sometimes rambles on the internet about how he thinks the government might be reading his e-mail, and that since it's unlikely that someone would try to sneak a bomb, blade, etc  through a TSA checkpoint designed to detect such things, then TSA checkpoints must be entirely impotent because in their presence not a single attack has been thwarted.

That's really a counterfactual, isn't it? How many successful attacks have there been on aircraft in the U.S. since the TSA took over screening?

TSA is transportation security theater, but the assertion they've not thwarted a single attack is impossible to prove.

Yes, it's a dumb argument.  I hate the TSA and the stupid checkpoints as well, but people make the dumbest arguments (as above) against them.  "Not a single prisoner has escaped that prison by climbing over the wall.  As such, we should stop wasting money on maintaining that wall."


Non-white voters are no longer disenfranchised, we should get rid of laws to prevent disenfranchisement of non-white voters.

Seems the argument has legal merit.
 
2013-06-28 01:34:09 AM  

sendtodave: ZipSplat: Ricardo Klement: ZipSplat: maniacbastard: \dude looks like he needs to take a seat over there

Bruce Schneier is a very prolific and respected cryptographer.  He also sometimes rambles on the internet about how he thinks the government might be reading his e-mail, and that since it's unlikely that someone would try to sneak a bomb, blade, etc  through a TSA checkpoint designed to detect such things, then TSA checkpoints must be entirely impotent because in their presence not a single attack has been thwarted.

That's really a counterfactual, isn't it? How many successful attacks have there been on aircraft in the U.S. since the TSA took over screening?

TSA is transportation security theater, but the assertion they've not thwarted a single attack is impossible to prove.

Yes, it's a dumb argument.  I hate the TSA and the stupid checkpoints as well, but people make the dumbest arguments (as above) against them.  "Not a single prisoner has escaped that prison by climbing over the wall.  As such, we should stop wasting money on maintaining that wall."

Non-white voters are no longer disenfranchised, we should get rid of laws to prevent disenfranchisement of non-white voters.

Seems the argument has legal merit.


I am for photo-ID, but only if they're free and easy to obtain. Otherwise, any economist will tell you you're reducing participation, and you're doing it in a manner biased against lower incomes.
 
2013-06-28 01:34:49 AM  

sendtodave: dookdookdook: 9/11 changed everything.  EVERYTHING.

Pooping one's pants in fear tends to lead to a change of pants.


True. But most rational people would change into clean, fresh pants. America seems to have changed into even poopier more fear-stenched pants. :-/
 
2013-06-28 01:38:09 AM  

mamoru: sendtodave: dookdookdook: 9/11 changed everything.  EVERYTHING.

Pooping one's pants in fear tends to lead to a change of pants.

True. But most rational people would change into clean, fresh pants. America seems to have changed into even poopier more fear-stenched pants. :-/


No, America has decided that the real problem here is wearing pants.  If we weren't wearing pants, we would have no pants to poop, afterall.  And pants are so restrictive, no pants is very liberating.  If we want to stop pooping our pants, we must stop... wearing... pants.
 
2013-06-28 01:42:44 AM  
ZipSplat:

No, America has decided that the real problem here is wearing pants.  If we weren't wearing pants, we would have no pants to poop, afterall.  And pants are so restrictive, no pants is very liberating.  If we want to stop pooping our pants, we must stop... wearing... pants.

Nah, we still wear pants, but now the NSA has a mic in everyone's underwear.
 
2013-06-28 02:18:12 AM  

ZipSplat: Bruce Schneier is a very prolific and respected cryptographer.


He also looks like he likes to suck kiddie dick.

No one made him use that awful photo.
 
2013-06-28 02:22:38 AM  

maniacbastard: ZipSplat: Bruce Schneier is a very prolific and respected cryptographer.

He also looks like he likes to suck kiddie dick.


Why not both?
 
2013-06-28 02:35:22 AM  

maniacbastard: torment my bungus with large heirloom
Squashes.


I laughed way too hard. Still laughing.
 
2013-06-28 02:41:53 AM  

maniacbastard: [www.schneier.com image 150x194]
I luv long walks on the beach
and cuddling.
and Anal, not you, me.
torment my bungus with large heirloom
Squashes.

kthxbi
\dude looks like he needs to take a seat over there


grahamlynch.eu

WORST HAIKU
EVAR, DUDE.
WTF?
 
2013-06-28 02:53:52 AM  

AliceBToklasLives: COINTELPRO

/look it up


When I've been saying that for two f*cking weeks, everyone ignored me because it's different now. Because WE JUST FOUND OUT ABOUT THIS.
 
2013-06-28 03:08:06 AM  

ZipSplat: maniacbastard: \dude looks like he needs to take a seat over there

Bruce Schneier is a very prolific and respected cryptographer.  He also sometimes rambles on the internet about how he thinks the government might be reading his e-mail, and that since it's unlikely that someone would try to sneak a bomb, blade, etc  through a TSA checkpoint designed to detect such things, then TSA checkpoints must be entirely impotent because in their presence not a single attack has been thwarted.


Or, you know, you could reference an actual argument that he made, that airport security measures are too costly for minimal benefit and easily bypassed.
 
2013-06-28 03:33:30 AM  

NewportBarGuy: (hence why the FBI and CIA clashed for decades.)


That clash was more about the FBI being absolutely riddled with security issues, and yet insisting on being given access to intelligence gathered by the CIA. Plus, the FBI has in the past, and continues to, operate outside the US, both for intelligence gathering and hunting fugitives. They don't respect turf boundaries any more than the NSA does.
 
2013-06-28 03:46:30 AM  

maniacbastard: [www.schneier.com image 150x194]
I luv long walks on the beach
and cuddling.
and Anal, not you, me.
torment my bungus with large heirloom
Squashes.

kthxbi
\dude looks like he needs to take a seat over there


I bet this guy has lots of opinions on contrails.
 
2013-06-28 04:08:23 AM  

dookdookdook: 9/11 changed everything.  EVERYTHING.


It didn't change my socks.  They're pretty rank now.
 
2013-06-28 04:15:32 AM  

sendtodave: The problem with this whole thing is a lack of trust.  The NSA could say "We continue to value civil liberties, we don't spy on our own people, we have some standards," and no one would believe them.

Or, rather, those inclined to not believe them wouldn't believe them.  And those included to trust them would still trust them.  And so, the whole thing still boils down to those that trust the government, and those that don't.

Snowden gave ammo to those that don't trust the government.  Those that support the government aren't happy about this.


Trust is the belief that you can predict another's behavior with an acceptable degree of confidence.   Some people accept a lower degree of confidence than others.  Discovery of behavior that you did not predict lowers one's confidence.

Note that it's entirely possible to trust someone to screw you every chance he gets. The most paranoid people are exhibiting the greatest trust.
 
2013-06-28 05:16:40 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: sendtodave: The problem with this whole thing is a lack of trust.  The NSA could say "We continue to value civil liberties, we don't spy on our own people, we have some standards," and no one would believe them.

Or, rather, those inclined to not believe them wouldn't believe them.  And those included to trust them would still trust them.  And so, the whole thing still boils down to those that trust the government, and those that don't.

Snowden gave ammo to those that don't trust the government.  Those that support the government aren't happy about this.

Trust is the belief that you can predict another's behavior with an acceptable degree of confidence.   Some people accept a lower degree of confidence than others.  Discovery of behavior that you did not predict lowers one's confidence.

Note that it's entirely possible to trust someone to screw you every chance he gets. The most paranoid people are exhibiting the greatest trust.


That's... pretty deep, actually.
 
2013-06-28 06:14:06 AM  
Don't worry, teatards, one day you'll see another Republican back in office, and then you won't care about the NSA any more.
 
2013-06-28 06:22:33 AM  

NewportBarGuy: I always thought the NSA was forbidden from listening to any domestic communications, just like the CIA is expressly forbidden from conducting any operations on US soil


Oh my god, you're adorable!
 
2013-06-28 06:22:47 AM  

KeatingFive: Don't worry, teatards, one day you'll see another Republican back in office, and then you won't care about the NSA any more.


They'll probably demand that he uses the power to crack down on fornicators.  Like Gov. Bob McDonnell's master thesis said should be done.
 
2013-06-28 06:43:15 AM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: NewportBarGuy: I always thought the NSA was forbidden from listening to any domestic communications, just like the CIA is expressly forbidden from conducting any operations on US soil

Oh my god, you're adorable!


That is the way the law is written. If you have evidence the law is being broken, please, let someone know, mkay?
 
2013-06-28 06:57:23 AM  
safr.kingfeatures.com
 
2013-06-28 07:03:41 AM  

KeatingFive: Don't worry, teatards, one day you'll see another Republican back in office, and then you won't care about the NSA any more.


I can't wait when the Republicans get back in. They will crush you vermin like the insects you are.  No one will be spared!  Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha!  AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHAHAHA!!!
 
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