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(Huffington Post)   Landmark immigration reform bill passes the Senate by a wide margin. Now it's off to die in the House   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 486
    More: Interesting, humans, Reform Act, Senate, Ted Kennedy, John Hoeven, Bob Menendez, Judiciary Committee, lower house  
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3554 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Jun 2013 at 5:04 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-28 10:25:53 AM  
again, i'll wait.
 
2013-06-28 10:26:04 AM  

d23: fartacus: Alphax: fartacus: WTF Indeed: It's a good thing Republicans learned their lesson from 2012 and are growing their base by supporting women's rights, gay rights and Hispanic and black outreach.

Yep, it's unfortunate that compromising principles and buying votes with handouts don't come as naturally to Republicans as they do to Democrats.

Do Republicans have any principles that aren't evil?

There's nothing evil about Republican principles, unless you think freedom, individual liberty, and civil rights are evil. Of course the Democrat spin machine is powerful and Democrat voters tend to be gullible, so it's understandable that you could view good principles as evil.

[whatistheexcel.com image 624x354]

Freedom, liberty, and civil rights... for white straight males.  That's the GOP way!


It was the Democrats who drove the civil rights movement and the abolition of slavery, right? Liberals love to project a hateful image on conservatives and libertarians, and for the most part it works. That's the Democrat spin machine I was talking about. And you also demonstrated the simple mindedness and gullability I was talking about. Slogans work so well on simple minds like yours.

I'm a conservative who is pro gay rights, women's rights, and even pro-choice. The supreme court's recent decision about DOMA was exactly right, and very consistent with conservative principles - it should be up to the states (heck, if a state wants to outlaw marriage between a man and a woman but make gay marriage legal, go for it!). It's also where the SCOTUS got it wrong on Roe v. Wade - it failed to acknowledge that the unborn are individuals during some stage of development, and there may be gray area that states and localities can negotiate better (according to local values) than the federal government.
 
2013-06-28 10:27:45 AM  

FlashHarry: ChaosStar: I'm very serious.
Who is getting the paycheck? Pedro
Whose paycheck is having taxes withheld? John Doe
Who is actually paying taxes? John Doe

i'm still trying to wrap my head around this.

if it's pedro's paycheck - i.e. he's done the two week's work - and his paycheck is lower because he has taxes taken out... how the fark is john doe paying taxes?


Who's name is on the W4? Pedro or John Doe?
The W2? Pedro or John Doe?
If the IRS were to audit, who would they audit? Pedro or John Doe?

I'm not denying that the check Pedro is getting is smaller, I'm saying he is not paying the taxes.
 
2013-06-28 10:32:45 AM  

ChaosStar: Who's name is on the W4? Pedro or John Doe?
The W2? Pedro or John Doe?
If the IRS were to audit, who would they audit? Pedro or John Doe?

I'm not denying that the check Pedro is getting is smaller, I'm saying he is not paying the taxes.


• john doe is not doing any work.

• john doe is not receiving a paycheck.

• john doe is not paying any money to the government.

• pedro's money is going to the government, not john doe's.

therefore pedro is paying taxes, not john doe.

if your argument is that it is in fact john doe who is paying taxes simply because his SSN is attached to the actual money pedro is sending to the government, then you're just being disingenuous.
 
2013-06-28 10:33:59 AM  

ChaosStar: Who's name is on the W4? Pedro or John Doe?
The W2? Pedro or John Doe?


btw, it's likely pedro's name is on those documents but that he's using john doe's SSN (who is likely dead - as this is the most common form of SSN fraud).
 
2013-06-28 10:34:58 AM  

ChaosStar: I'm not denying that the check Pedro is getting is smaller, I'm saying he is not paying the taxes


answer this: whose money is going to the government?
 
2013-06-28 10:36:12 AM  

FlashHarry: ChaosStar: Who's name is on the W4? Pedro or John Doe?
The W2? Pedro or John Doe?
If the IRS were to audit, who would they audit? Pedro or John Doe?

I'm not denying that the check Pedro is getting is smaller, I'm saying he is not paying the taxes.

• john doe is not doing any work.

• john doe is not receiving a paycheck.

• john doe is not paying any money to the government.

• pedro's money is going to the government, not john doe's.

therefore pedro is paying taxes, not john doe.

if your argument is that it is in fact john doe who is paying taxes simply because his SSN is attached to the actual money pedro is sending to the government, then you're just being disingenuous.


I answer your questions, yet you don't answer mine.
You can try to spin it any way you like, John Doe is the one paying the taxes.
Pedro is getting less money.
John Doe's name is on the paycheck.
John Doe gets the W2.
John Doe gets the refund if filed.
John Doe gets the audit if the IRS so chooses.
John Doe is paying the taxes.
 
2013-06-28 10:36:32 AM  

fartacus: It was the Democrats who drove the civil rights movement and the abolition of slavery, right?


so you're saying that the GOP of 2013 is exactly like the GOP of 1965... or 1865?
 
2013-06-28 10:37:16 AM  

ChaosStar: I answer your questions, yet you don't answer mine.
You can try to spin it any way you like, John Doe is the one paying the taxes.
Pedro is getting less money.
John Doe's name is on the paycheck.
John Doe gets the W2.
John Doe gets the refund if filed.
John Doe gets the audit if the IRS so chooses.
John Doe is paying the taxes.


you are lying.

pedro's money is going to the government. pedro is therefore paying taxes.
 
2013-06-28 10:41:56 AM  

FlashHarry: ChaosStar: I answer your questions, yet you don't answer mine.
You can try to spin it any way you like, John Doe is the one paying the taxes.
Pedro is getting less money.
John Doe's name is on the paycheck.
John Doe gets the W2.
John Doe gets the refund if filed.
John Doe gets the audit if the IRS so chooses.
John Doe is paying the taxes.

you are lying.

pedro's money is going to the government. pedro is therefore paying taxes.


We'll just have to agree to disagree then.
Have the last word if you would like.
 
2013-06-28 10:44:32 AM  

ChaosStar: We'll just have to agree to disagree then.
Have the last word if you would like.


just answer one question: whose money is going to the government, pedro's or john doe's?
 
2013-06-28 10:48:33 AM  

Corvus: So you support a method which will put overpopulation into overdrive then?  Uncontrolled influx of people into this country will have massive problems.

A) All predictions show the US is going to have a worker shortage in the future and the US population will dwindle without immigration

B) No one wants an uncontrolled influx of people your argument is a strawman.


You sure about B ?  I've seen plenty of liberals that think it should be an open border.
 
2013-06-28 10:52:51 AM  

Corvus: RobertBruce: vernonFL: RobertBruce: It's  a jobs bill --- just not for Americans.

They're going to hire 20,000 more border patrol guards.

And that's great. But it's still vs 11-12 million illegals here.

You mean the one's who already live here and mostly already have jobs?


Good luck with that unemployment rate when a bunch of now legal workers compete for jobs.
Since Obamacare and all other benifits will not apply (at least at first), then
companies can choose between worker A, a citizen, and have to pay for all those benefits, or worker B, a working resident, without the nasty 20% tax

I wonder which worker companies will choose?
 
2013-06-28 10:54:37 AM  

Alphax: It's like holding grudges against jaywalkers. They didn't commit felonies, or misdemeanors.


No it's more like trespassing, and them giving them a license to trespass whenever they feel like it.
 
2013-06-28 11:06:50 AM  

FlashHarry: ChaosStar: I'm very serious.
Who is getting the paycheck? Pedro
Whose paycheck is having taxes withheld? John Doe
Who is actually paying taxes? John Doe

you... you are trolling me, right? you cannot be this dumb.


Yea, you better get that hook out.
 
2013-06-28 11:32:23 AM  

Smackledorfer: Yea, you better get that hook out.


he was good, though, wasn't he?
 
2013-06-28 11:49:11 AM  

FlashHarry: Smackledorfer: Yea, you better get that hook out.

he was good, though, wasn't he?


I already had him marked went he went full retard in a thread on gay marriage, so I can't objectively say.  Whatever you need to tell yourself :P
 
2013-06-28 11:51:35 AM  
Is there a Tea Party rhetoric bingo game out there? This seems like the perfect thread for it.
 
2013-06-28 11:52:40 AM  

DrewCurtisJr: El Morro: Sure, a few are sh*tbags, but they usually wind up getting themselves deported by doing stupid crap and getting arrested for it (which triggers an "ICE hold" and deportation) and don't last too long here.

Because our border is so secure once you get deported there's no way to get back.


Maybe you're confused.
- An immigrant jumps the border (note: we certainly have to increase border security- no objection there).
- Immigrant doesn't choose to behave like a constructive member of society, breaks a few laws, gets arrested.
- Police contact DHS/ICE, find out he has no status.
- Immigrant gets put into removal proceedings, winds up getting an order of removal/deportation
- Immigrant jumps back over the border into the States, after being removed to his native country.

So now we're talking about someone who violated his removal order by returning to the United States.  Because of this, if he ever gets caught again, he/she CANNOT contest an immediate removal from the country (unless he reopens his original case, which is very difficult and only available under particular circumstances), and may be subjected to jail time and a fine before his removal.

But what if he doesn't get caught again?  Well, if he's "lucky" enough to avoid getting arrested again, he can look forward to a lifetime of working crap jobs, constant fear of the police and ICE raids, the inability to get a drivers license or work authorization, no retirement nest egg outside of saving whatever is left over from his living expenses, and criminals knowing he's an easy target.

Boy, that sure is the life!
 
2013-06-28 12:05:56 PM  

El Morro: Maybe you're confused.


I'm confused? You just wrote a whole post that confirmed my comment.

But what if he doesn't get caught again?  Well, if he's "lucky" enough to avoid getting arrested again, he can look forward to a lifetime of working crap jobs, constant fear of the police and ICE raids, the inability to get a drivers license or work authorization, no retirement nest egg outside of saving whatever is left over from his living expenses, and criminals knowing he's an easy target.

Criminals are really concerned about those things.
 
2013-06-28 12:59:53 PM  

Bahleted: I'm pretty sure the point is that Mexico has more restrictions for non Mexican born citizens when it comes to property rights, healthcare, etc. Not that they don't let people in.


Ah so no one cares about?

So no one minds if we let as many Mexicans into the US  possible?
 
2013-06-28 01:40:23 PM  
If we can find Saddam in a gotdamned hidey-hole in the desert, I'm pretty sure we could round up 11mil illegals who aren't really hiding - if we really wanted to, that is. Plus, Job Creation™. win-win.

It's possible because we are Ameri-CANs!
 
2013-06-28 01:40:43 PM  

Corvus: Bahleted: I'm pretty sure the point is that Mexico has more restrictions for non Mexican born citizens when it comes to property rights, healthcare, etc. Not that they don't let people in.

Ah so no one cares about?

So no one minds if we let as many Mexicans into the US  possible?


Rephrase that? I feel like you might be missing some key words that would make your questions complete.

OR

maybe you're drunk
 
2013-06-28 02:03:26 PM  

Dwindle: Alphax: ChaosStar: What about the tax payer money spent on the people who are not citizens of the country? The crime they bring? The resources they consume? You could consider the tax payers of the country victims couldn't you?

Other way around, actually.  They pay taxes with little hope of getting anything back for it.  They're working hard, with little to show for it.

What are you talking about? They get paid in cash, the government never sees one dime of what they make.
When I managed resturants, I filled their pay envolopes myself.
$700 a week cash for a line cook, every week of his life.


Why aren't YOU the one in jail, dickhead?
 
2013-06-28 02:38:25 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: El Morro: Maybe you're confused.

I'm confused? You just wrote a whole post that confirmed my comment.

But what if he doesn't get caught again?  Well, if he's "lucky" enough to avoid getting arrested again, he can look forward to a lifetime of working crap jobs, constant fear of the police and ICE raids, the inability to get a drivers license or work authorization, no retirement nest egg outside of saving whatever is left over from his living expenses, and criminals knowing he's an easy target.

Criminals are really concerned about those things.


If by "criminals", you mean those who prey on the immigrant community, then yes.  They do care about those things, because immigrants who no longer need to fear the police because of their status are more willing to cooperate with police and the prosecution (there's the U-visa option, but not many immigrants know about that).

If by "criminals", you mean the immigrants who came over without authorization, you're entitled to that opinion.  But there is a massive number of immigrants who were brought here as children who are in the same boat as those who made an active decision to come over.  If you're cold hearted enough to want the same punishment for them as anyone else?  Well, there's no point in furthering the discussion.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
2013-06-28 02:43:52 PM  

FlashHarry: ChaosStar: We'll just have to agree to disagree then.
Have the last word if you would like.

just answer one question: whose money is going to the government, pedro's or john doe's?


If Pedro has a TIN number and files his taxes, the government is getting money.  The government would also be getting money via sales taxes, etc.
If Pedro doesn't have a TIN and doesn't file for taxes, then the only money going to the government is through sales taxes, etc.

Either way, Pedro doesn't get to enjoy the benefits of Social Security when he reaches retirement age.  John Doe does.
 
2013-06-28 02:55:34 PM  
Wouldn't it make sense instead of just rounding them up and deporting millions of illegals to just give them a reasonable up front fine then a following heftier fine they work to pay off?

If they can't or are unwilling to pay deport them.

Use the money from the upfront fines to the construction of a stronger boarder.

Then use the next fine monthly payments, whatever the amount might be for border patrol salaries.

We have millions that helped contribute to the problem why not utilize them to help solve it?

Go after the business who helped harbor them as well for that matter.

While I don't agree with kicking off your stay in a country by breaking their laws it's kind of crazy just to kick them all out without any regard as to how we could benefit from them.

Also, we could even contract the construction to a private company.

I think it sounds pretty solid at least for the time being but of course something like that would never happen. It's not like anyone in power to do that is reading any of this.
 
2013-06-28 03:17:50 PM  

El Morro: If by "criminals", you mean those who prey on the immigrant community, then yes. They do care about those things, because immigrants who no longer need to fear the police because of their status are more willing to cooperate with police and the prosecution (there's the U-visa option, but not many immigrants know about that).


You wrote yourself "Sure, a few are sh*tbags, but they usually wind up getting themselves deported by doing stupid crap and getting arrested for it".

Claiming they don't last too long because they get deported is not accurate. They can keep coming in over and over again.

 Deported illegal immigrants return repeatedly
 
2013-06-28 03:25:26 PM  

El Morro: If Pedro has a TIN number and files his taxes, the government is getting money.  The government would also be getting money via sales taxes, etc.
If Pedro doesn't have a TIN and doesn't file for taxes, then the only money going to the government is through sales taxes, etc.

Either way, Pedro doesn't get to enjoy the benefits of Social Security when he reaches retirement age.  John Doe does.


regardless of whether pedro files or not, he's still having taxes taken out of his wages - ergo he pays taxes.

but, yes, he won't reap the benefits.
 
2013-06-28 06:10:36 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: El Morro: If by "criminals", you mean those who prey on the immigrant community, then yes. They do care about those things, because immigrants who no longer need to fear the police because of their status are more willing to cooperate with police and the prosecution (there's the U-visa option, but not many immigrants know about that).

You wrote yourself "Sure, a few are sh*tbags, but they usually wind up getting themselves deported by doing stupid crap and getting arrested for it".

Claiming they don't last too long because they get deported is not accurate. They can keep coming in over and over again.

 Deported illegal immigrants return repeatedly


I was completely accurate.  "They don't last too long", as in, "They do stupid shiat, get caught and deported for it".  So they jump the border, get caught, and get sent back.

The problem of them repeatedly re-entering is an issue related to border security.  I already said I supported increased border security to prevent people from entering (or re-entering) in the first place.  Increased security at the border is probably our best bet to prevent the "sh*tbags" from getting into the country and causing problems, since they wouldn't be the type of individuals who would be granted a B1/B2 visitor's visa in the first place, nor be willing to go through the expense, effort, or background checks for the process.

I honestly think your views and mine are closer to agreement than disagreement on the issue than you might believe.
 
2013-06-28 06:16:32 PM  

El Morro: DrewCurtisJr: El Morro: If by "criminals", you mean those who prey on the immigrant community, then yes. They do care about those things, because immigrants who no longer need to fear the police because of their status are more willing to cooperate with police and the prosecution (there's the U-visa option, but not many immigrants know about that).

You wrote yourself "Sure, a few are sh*tbags, but they usually wind up getting themselves deported by doing stupid crap and getting arrested for it".

Claiming they don't last too long because they get deported is not accurate. They can keep coming in over and over again.

 Deported illegal immigrants return repeatedly

I was completely accurate.  "They don't last too long", as in, "They do stupid shiat, get caught and deported for it".  So they jump the border, get caught, and get sent back.

The problem of them repeatedly re-entering is an issue related to border security.  I already said I supported increased border security to prevent people from entering (or re-entering) in the first place.  Increased security at the border is probably our best bet to prevent the "sh*tbags" from getting into the country and causing problems, since they wouldn't be the type of individuals who would be granted a B1/B2 visitor's visa in the first place, nor be willing to go through the expense, effort, or background checks for the process.

I honestly think your views and mine are closer to agreement than disagreement on the issue than you might believe.


The chickenshiat politicians are letting these lawbreakers force their hand.  Deport, it can be done.  A certain country moved millions of people 70 years ago, we can sure as fark do it.  We do a better job protecting South Korea than we do our own borders.  I'd volunteer to plant landmines on our Southern border on the weekends.  Set up cameras, put it on PayPerView.
 
2013-06-28 06:35:11 PM  
armoredbulldozer:


The chickenshiat politicians are letting these lawbreakers force their hand.  Deport, it can be done.  A certain country moved millions of people 70 years ago, we can sure as fark do it.  We do a better job protecting South Korea than we do our own borders.  I'd volunteer to plant landmines on our Southern border on the weekends.  Set up cameras, put it on PayPerView.

I believe this is best Godwin I have ever seen.

Ole!! Two ears and a tail to the bulldozer.
 
2013-06-28 08:20:42 PM  
So, everyone who actually bothered to apply for a green card is going to be given one? Or are the people who tried to do things legally get shoved to the back of the line again.
 
2013-06-28 10:14:49 PM  

ChaosStar: They're not paying income taxes, John Doe is paying income taxes as they are using his identity.


Are you really that dense?  I mean... you know what, fark it.  Yeah, you really are that dense.
 
2013-06-28 10:28:59 PM  

Fano: shoved to the back of the line again.


If you actually read the article, you would know that the reform bill specifically states that those who are already here have to wait 10 years in a quasi-legal status before they can begin the process of applying for citizenship.
 
2013-06-29 01:52:26 AM  

armoredbulldozer: El Morro: DrewCurtisJr: El Morro: If by "criminals", you mean those who prey on the immigrant community, then yes. They do care about those things, because immigrants who no longer need to fear the police because of their status are more willing to cooperate with police and the prosecution (there's the U-visa option, but not many immigrants know about that).

You wrote yourself "Sure, a few are sh*tbags, but they usually wind up getting themselves deported by doing stupid crap and getting arrested for it".

Claiming they don't last too long because they get deported is not accurate. They can keep coming in over and over again.

 Deported illegal immigrants return repeatedly

I was completely accurate.  "They don't last too long", as in, "They do stupid shiat, get caught and deported for it".  So they jump the border, get caught, and get sent back.

The problem of them repeatedly re-entering is an issue related to border security.  I already said I supported increased border security to prevent people from entering (or re-entering) in the first place.  Increased security at the border is probably our best bet to prevent the "sh*tbags" from getting into the country and causing problems, since they wouldn't be the type of individuals who would be granted a B1/B2 visitor's visa in the first place, nor be willing to go through the expense, effort, or background checks for the process.

I honestly think your views and mine are closer to agreement than disagreement on the issue than you might believe.

The chickenshiat politicians are letting these lawbreakers force their hand.  Deport, it can be done.  A certain country moved millions of people 70 years ago, we can sure as fark do it.  We do a better job protecting South Korea than we do our own borders.  I'd volunteer to plant landmines on our Southern border on the weekends.  Set up cameras, put it on PayPerView.


Go get f*cked, troll.
 
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