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(Huffington Post)   Landmark immigration reform bill passes the Senate by a wide margin. Now it's off to die in the House   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 486
    More: Interesting, humans, Reform Act, Senate, Ted Kennedy, John Hoeven, Bob Menendez, Judiciary Committee, lower house  
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3545 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Jun 2013 at 5:04 PM (41 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-28 07:59:36 AM
We can only hope subby
 
2013-06-28 08:03:27 AM

Alphax: JunkyJu: Condemn someone for telling the truth, but give a free pass to others for breaking the law.

Makes perfect sense.

This 'breaking the law' talking point is retarded.


How so? They broke the law when they came to the country illegally.
Giving them amnesty is rewarding that behavior.
What's the incentive for others to not break the law in the same way?

Seems fairly logical and reasonable to me.
 
2013-06-28 08:24:27 AM

ChaosStar: Alphax: JunkyJu: Condemn someone for telling the truth, but give a free pass to others for breaking the law.

Makes perfect sense.

This 'breaking the law' talking point is retarded.

How so? They broke the law when they came to the country illegally.
Giving them amnesty is rewarding that behavior.
What's the incentive for others to not break the law in the same way?

Seems fairly logical and reasonable to me.


It's like holding grudges against jaywalkers. They didn't commit felonies, or misdemeanors.
 
2013-06-28 08:33:47 AM

Evil High Priest: Biological Ali: seventypercent: Biological Ali: It has to pass though, right? I mean, doesn't it need only a simple majority in the House? Are there any procedural tricks in the House like the filibuster to prevent something like this from happening?

It could pass the House with the vast majority Democrats and a relatively small number of Republicans voting for it. And it probably would pass right now.

But in order for that to happen, Boehner would have to let it come up for a vote, and he's indicated that he won't do that.

He can just unilaterally keep a bill from coming up for a vote even if a majority would vote for it? That would be pretty silly.

Yes, that's pretty much his job as Speaker. If he says no vote, no vote.


I suppose it's step up from passing around tobacco bribe money on the House floor.
 
2013-06-28 08:52:29 AM

uselessgit: Bullshiat Alphax.  If the mass of illegals were all potential republicans, this bill wouldn't have been written.  Deny all you like, I'm used to liberals never saying what they really think.  You want a one party system.  As a liberal, anything it takes to make sure there is no opposition.  If anyone disagrees with you or other liberals, it automatically means they are wrong, stupid and should be marginalized?  What possible democrat party benefit can happen with an endless supply of democrat voters... that can't POSSIBLY be a factor. I'm sure. Not at all, out of the pure love and goodness in their saintly hearts, dems want to extend a hand to all those poor down-trodden.No other motive at all?Meanwhile evil businesses are looking to exploit cheap labor for their evil greedy greed greed money vaults? (which they are).I can admit there is an unspoken reason they want all the cheap labor, I can't understand why you don't think dems have a similar bent.


In the immortal words of Louis Black, "you tell me how we're going to catch 11 million people. Are you out of your farking mind?!"
 
2013-06-28 09:09:31 AM

Alphax: fartacus: WTF Indeed: It's a good thing Republicans learned their lesson from 2012 and are growing their base by supporting women's rights, gay rights and Hispanic and black outreach.

Yep, it's unfortunate that compromising principles and buying votes with handouts don't come as naturally to Republicans as they do to Democrats.

Do Republicans have any principles that aren't evil?


There's nothing evil about Republican principles, unless you think freedom, individual liberty, and civil rights are evil. Of course the Democrat spin machine is powerful and Democrat voters tend to be gullible, so it's understandable that you could view good principles as evil.
 
2013-06-28 09:14:53 AM

fartacus: Alphax: fartacus: WTF Indeed: It's a good thing Republicans learned their lesson from 2012 and are growing their base by supporting women's rights, gay rights and Hispanic and black outreach.

Yep, it's unfortunate that compromising principles and buying votes with handouts don't come as naturally to Republicans as they do to Democrats.

Do Republicans have any principles that aren't evil?

There's nothing evil about Republican principles, unless you think freedom, individual liberty, and civil rights are evil. Of course the Democrat spin machine is powerful and Democrat voters tend to be gullible, so it's understandable that you could view good principles as evil.


Of course, lying for their cause is another Republican principle.  Freedom, individual liberty, civil rights.. three things they're working hard to destroy in the last few years.
 
2013-06-28 09:20:02 AM

Alphax: ChaosStar: Alphax: JunkyJu: Condemn someone for telling the truth, but give a free pass to others for breaking the law.

Makes perfect sense.

This 'breaking the law' talking point is retarded.

How so? They broke the law when they came to the country illegally.
Giving them amnesty is rewarding that behavior.
What's the incentive for others to not break the law in the same way?

Seems fairly logical and reasonable to me.

It's like holding grudges against jaywalkers. They didn't commit felonies, or misdemeanors.


You're comparing someone entering a country illegally to someone illegally crossing a street at a place other than a crosswalk?
You feel that is a fair and equal comparison?
 
2013-06-28 09:20:47 AM

Thunderpipes: Infernalist: meyerkev: jjorsett: FlashHarry: you just know the house republicans will kill it. it's in their nature.

and they'll lose the latino vote for another generation.


I love how "The" Latinos are supposed to be this monolith that votes en bloc and who have only one issue. Do you assume Jews all vote alike? How about women?

To be totally fair, "the blacks" are incredibly monolithic (93% for Obama, where Latinos were 71%), and they're the only other large minority that hasn't managed to successfully integrate.  And since something like a fifth of the Latinos in the country are illegal and a bunch of the others are family/friends/etc of that fifth, I could see WHY latinos would be assumed to be monolithic on this issue.

/Asians don't count, since they're functionally culturally and economically white with different food at this point.

It's not monolithic so much as "We have zero reason to vote for the other guy who openly loathes us."

Al boils down to free stuff, period. Democrats promise free stuff in exchange for votes. Need more taxes to pay for that stuff, punish hard working Americans. Won't end, and country will collapse financially within the next couple decades. Simple math.

Immigration reform as it stands will cost us trillions of taxpayer dollars. Will further increase minority populations until they are the majority, somewhere around 2040. Then who will they blame when they control everything, nobody works, and crime is rampant?


I'm kind off actually enjoying the downfall at this point. I wait for the economics threads where all the same farkers practically brag at how poor they are.
 
2013-06-28 09:23:12 AM

ChaosStar: Alphax: ChaosStar: Alphax: JunkyJu: Condemn someone for telling the truth, but give a free pass to others for breaking the law.

Makes perfect sense.

This 'breaking the law' talking point is retarded.

How so? They broke the law when they came to the country illegally.
Giving them amnesty is rewarding that behavior.
What's the incentive for others to not break the law in the same way?

Seems fairly logical and reasonable to me.

It's like holding grudges against jaywalkers. They didn't commit felonies, or misdemeanors.

You're comparing someone entering a country illegally to someone illegally crossing a street at a place other than a crosswalk?
You feel that is a fair and equal comparison?


Yes.  Why not?
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-06-28 09:25:37 AM

fartacus: Alphax: fartacus: WTF Indeed: It's a good thing Republicans learned their lesson from 2012 and are growing their base by supporting women's rights, gay rights and Hispanic and black outreach.

Yep, it's unfortunate that compromising principles and buying votes with handouts don't come as naturally to Republicans as they do to Democrats.

Do Republicans have any principles that aren't evil?

There's nothing evil about Republican principles, unless you think freedom, individual liberty, and civil rights are evil. Of course the Democrat spin machine is powerful and Democrat voters tend to be gullible, so it's understandable that you could view good principles as evil.


whatistheexcel.com

Freedom, liberty, and civil rights... for white straight males.  That's the GOP way!
 
2013-06-28 09:26:29 AM

Alphax: ChaosStar: Alphax: ChaosStar: Alphax: JunkyJu: Condemn someone for telling the truth, but give a free pass to others for breaking the law.

Makes perfect sense.

This 'breaking the law' talking point is retarded.

How so? They broke the law when they came to the country illegally.
Giving them amnesty is rewarding that behavior.
What's the incentive for others to not break the law in the same way?

Seems fairly logical and reasonable to me.

It's like holding grudges against jaywalkers. They didn't commit felonies, or misdemeanors.

You're comparing someone entering a country illegally to someone illegally crossing a street at a place other than a crosswalk?
You feel that is a fair and equal comparison?

Yes.  Why not?


I'd call both 'victimless crimes', but on the other hand, the illegal immigrants are often exploited when they get here.  Underpaid, poorly treated, with the threat of deportation if they try to stick up for themselves.
 
2013-06-28 09:32:00 AM

Alphax: Alphax: ChaosStar: Alphax: ChaosStar: Alphax: JunkyJu: Condemn someone for telling the truth, but give a free pass to others for breaking the law.

Makes perfect sense.

This 'breaking the law' talking point is retarded.

How so? They broke the law when they came to the country illegally.
Giving them amnesty is rewarding that behavior.
What's the incentive for others to not break the law in the same way?

Seems fairly logical and reasonable to me.

It's like holding grudges against jaywalkers. They didn't commit felonies, or misdemeanors.

You're comparing someone entering a country illegally to someone illegally crossing a street at a place other than a crosswalk?
You feel that is a fair and equal comparison?

Yes.  Why not?

I'd call both 'victimless crimes', but on the other hand, the illegal immigrants are often exploited when they get here.  Underpaid, poorly treated, with the threat of deportation if they try to stick up for themselves.


What about the tax payer money spent on the people who are not citizens of the country? The crime they bring? The resources they consume? You could consider the tax payers of the country victims couldn't you?
The opportunity, as you pointed out, to exploit them wouldn't exist if they didn't have the illegal activity to be held over their head could it?
Do you get these sort of issues with a jay walker? If not, how can you consider them equal crimes for comparison purposes?
 
2013-06-28 09:33:52 AM

ChaosStar: What about the tax payer money spent on the people who are not citizens of the country? The crime they bring? The resources they consume? You could consider the tax payers of the country victims couldn't you?


Other way around, actually.  They pay taxes with little hope of getting anything back for it.  They're working hard, with little to show for it.
 
2013-06-28 09:39:44 AM

Alphax: ChaosStar: What about the tax payer money spent on the people who are not citizens of the country? The crime they bring? The resources they consume? You could consider the tax payers of the country victims couldn't you?

Other way around, actually.  They pay taxes with little hope of getting anything back for it.  They're working hard, with little to show for it.


How do you figure?
They pay no income tax, because how can they if they don't have a SSN?
You could argue they pay sales tax when they purchase things, but I could counter with them receiving benefits like healthcare, roads, emergency services, etc to offset that payment
What other taxes would they pay where they get nothing back?
 
2013-06-28 09:42:20 AM

ChaosStar: Alphax: ChaosStar: What about the tax payer money spent on the people who are not citizens of the country? The crime they bring? The resources they consume? You could consider the tax payers of the country victims couldn't you?

Other way around, actually.  They pay taxes with little hope of getting anything back for it.  They're working hard, with little to show for it.

How do you figure?
They pay no income tax, because how can they if they don't have a SSN?
You could argue they pay sales tax when they purchase things, but I could counter with them receiving benefits like healthcare, roads, emergency services, etc to offset that payment
What other taxes would they pay where they get nothing back?


Yeah, they do pay withholding on their wages.  And while I usually get some back each April, I don't think they can file for that.
 
2013-06-28 09:42:22 AM

tennyson: FlashHarry: Are there any procedural tricks in the House like the filibuster to prevent something like this from happening?

Yes, there are. The Speaker can just outright refuse to consider it.

There are procedures under which a majority of the House can demand that it be considered without the Speaker's help (a "discharge petition") but it is almost never used since 1993, when they changed the rules so that you had to sign the petition publicly.

Which means that the Speaker can take retribution on you. It's been used a grand total of once since then (for McCain-Feingold). Even when there's a majority for the bill, many on the Speaker's side will be too afraid to use it.


If Boehner has a brain in his head he'll huff and puff and put on a show while secretly encouraging a discharge petition amongst his moderates. It will hurt him, but not as badly as allowing it to come to vote. An immigration bill with some spector of bipartisan support is his only dream of future Latino inroads.

/No, I don't really think he has either.
 
2013-06-28 09:43:59 AM

Alphax: ChaosStar: Alphax: ChaosStar: What about the tax payer money spent on the people who are not citizens of the country? The crime they bring? The resources they consume? You could consider the tax payers of the country victims couldn't you?

Other way around, actually.  They pay taxes with little hope of getting anything back for it.  They're working hard, with little to show for it.

How do you figure?
They pay no income tax, because how can they if they don't have a SSN?
You could argue they pay sales tax when they purchase things, but I could counter with them receiving benefits like healthcare, roads, emergency services, etc to offset that payment
What other taxes would they pay where they get nothing back?

Yeah, they do pay withholding on their wages.  And while I usually get some back each April, I don't think they can file for that.


Can you provide some sort of documentation to back that up? Again, I can't see how they are paying withholding if they don't have a SSN.
 
2013-06-28 09:46:15 AM
Really? All the politicians who stand to gain 11 million free votes every year voted in favor of the bill? And only some of the ones who did not?
 
2013-06-28 09:46:28 AM

ChaosStar: Alphax: ChaosStar: Alphax: ChaosStar: What about the tax payer money spent on the people who are not citizens of the country? The crime they bring? The resources they consume? You could consider the tax payers of the country victims couldn't you?

Other way around, actually.  They pay taxes with little hope of getting anything back for it.  They're working hard, with little to show for it.

How do you figure?
They pay no income tax, because how can they if they don't have a SSN?
You could argue they pay sales tax when they purchase things, but I could counter with them receiving benefits like healthcare, roads, emergency services, etc to offset that payment
What other taxes would they pay where they get nothing back?

Yeah, they do pay withholding on their wages.  And while I usually get some back each April, I don't think they can file for that.

Can you provide some sort of documentation to back that up? Again, I can't see how they are paying withholding if they don't have a SSN.


My knowledge isn't firsthand, but I assumed that they have SOMEONE'S Social Security number.  Probably someone no longer with us.
 
2013-06-28 09:48:57 AM

Alphax: ChaosStar: What about the tax payer money spent on the people who are not citizens of the country? The crime they bring? The resources they consume? You could consider the tax payers of the country victims couldn't you?

Other way around, actually.  They pay taxes with little hope of getting anything back for it.  They're working hard, with little to show for it.


What are you talking about? They get paid in cash, the government never sees one dime of what they make.
When I managed resturants, I filled their pay envolopes myself.
$700 a week cash for a line cook, every week of his life.
 
2013-06-28 09:49:10 AM

Dwindle: Really? All the politicians who stand to gain 11 million free votes every year voted in favor of the bill? And only some of the ones who did not?


Perhaps you can translate that from Derp to English?
 
2013-06-28 09:49:24 AM

ChaosStar: Can you provide some sort of documentation to back that up? Again, I can't see how they are paying withholding if they don't have a SSN.


many use fake SSNs, meaning they have tax withheld but they can't get a refund.

now, those working on a purely cash basis won't pay tax, obviously. but those hired by companies who require you to fill out a W2 will.
 
2013-06-28 09:50:36 AM

Alphax: ChaosStar: Alphax: ChaosStar: Alphax: ChaosStar: What about the tax payer money spent on the people who are not citizens of the country? The crime they bring? The resources they consume? You could consider the tax payers of the country victims couldn't you?

Other way around, actually.  They pay taxes with little hope of getting anything back for it.  They're working hard, with little to show for it.

How do you figure?
They pay no income tax, because how can they if they don't have a SSN?
You could argue they pay sales tax when they purchase things, but I could counter with them receiving benefits like healthcare, roads, emergency services, etc to offset that payment
What other taxes would they pay where they get nothing back?

Yeah, they do pay withholding on their wages.  And while I usually get some back each April, I don't think they can file for that.

Can you provide some sort of documentation to back that up? Again, I can't see how they are paying withholding if they don't have a SSN.

My knowledge isn't firsthand, but I assumed that they have SOMEONE'S Social Security number.  Probably someone no longer with us.


Sorry, I was just wondering if you had seen a study or something done about how their wages are done. It would be an interesting read.
That would be another crime though right? With a victim that could or could not be deceased?
Again I ask, do you get this issue with jaywalking and if not do you still feel that it's a fair comparison?
 
2013-06-28 09:50:39 AM
Are the current Immigration laws that "draconian".  More people become citizens of the US than any other country in the world on an annual basis. So what am I am missing here? This new Senate bill reinforces the fact that the eVerification system and border security (the wall)? Those measures have already been passed - just not enforced with current law. Again - what am I missing? Ilegals will now raise their hands and pay a fine? Really? What am I missing here?  I see a Pork filled bill trumped up with feigned altruism. We gotta pass it to find out what's in it - right?
 
2013-06-28 09:51:40 AM

Dwindle: What are you talking about? They get paid in cash, the government never sees one dime of what they make.
When I managed resturants, I filled their pay envolopes myself.
$700 a week cash for a line cook, every week of his life.


anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
 
2013-06-28 09:54:28 AM

ChaosStar: Can you provide some sort of documentation to back that up? Again, I can't see how they are paying withholding if they don't have a SSN.


Experts suggest that approximately 75 percent of working-age illegal aliens use fraudulent Social Security cards to obtain employment.
 
2013-06-28 09:57:44 AM

ChaosStar: That would be another crime though right? With a victim that could or could not be deceased?
Again I ask, do you get this issue with jaywalking and if not do you still feel that it's a fair comparison?


Yeah, I do.  They're people; perhaps their situation back home was unbearable, and they came out of desperation.  And because of the current crappy system, they may be badly exploited when they get here.  I'm not going to rage at them over it.
 
2013-06-28 09:58:11 AM

FlashHarry: ChaosStar: Can you provide some sort of documentation to back that up? Again, I can't see how they are paying withholding if they don't have a SSN.

Experts suggest that approximately 75 percent of working-age illegal aliens use fraudulent Social Security cards to obtain employment.


Ok, but that's identity theft. That just goes to the point that illegally coming into the country isn't a victimless crime, if 75% of those coming in are committing it.
 
2013-06-28 09:58:57 AM
In 2009, the last year for which figures are available, employers reported wages of $72.8 billion for 7.7 million workers who could not be matched to legal Social Security numbers.

"illegal" immigrants also pay tax in the form of property taxes and sales taxes. like it or not, they contribute massively to the economy.
 
2013-06-28 10:00:15 AM

ChaosStar: Ok, but that's identity theft. That just goes to the point that illegally coming into the country isn't a victimless crime, if 75% of those coming in are committing it.


that may be, but i was refuting your claim that they don't pay income taxes.
 
2013-06-28 10:01:48 AM

ChaosStar: Ok, but that's identity theft. That just goes to the point that illegally coming into the country isn't a victimless crime, if 75% of those coming in are committing it.


see my link above concerning the $72.8 billion that couldn't be matched to legal SSNs. that's not identity theft; that's likely the use of SSNs of dead people. otherwise it would match a live person.
 
2013-06-28 10:02:23 AM

Alphax: ChaosStar: That would be another crime though right? With a victim that could or could not be deceased?
Again I ask, do you get this issue with jaywalking and if not do you still feel that it's a fair comparison?

Yeah, I do.  They're people; perhaps their situation back home was unbearable, and they came out of desperation.  And because of the current crappy system, they may be badly exploited when they get here.  I'm not going to rage at them over it.


So you're pretty much just sticking to your position, not because of logic or reason, but because you're being stubborn and refusing to accept the contrary evidence presenting?
You're right, they're people, but so are the others trying to get in by going through the actual immigration system, possibly for the same reasons.
Having compassion for them is admirable, dismissing a legitimate cause for concern, i.e. the "breaking the law" point, is foolish.
 
2013-06-28 10:04:08 AM

FlashHarry: ChaosStar: Ok, but that's identity theft. That just goes to the point that illegally coming into the country isn't a victimless crime, if 75% of those coming in are committing it.

that may be, but i was refuting your claim that they don't pay income taxes.


They're not paying income taxes, John Doe is paying income taxes as they are using his identity.

FlashHarry: ChaosStar: Ok, but that's identity theft. That just goes to the point that illegally coming into the country isn't a victimless crime, if 75% of those coming in are committing it.

see my link above concerning the $72.8 billion that couldn't be matched to legal SSNs. that's not identity theft; that's likely the use of SSNs of dead people. otherwise it would match a live person.


Using the identity of the deceased is still identity theft.
 
2013-06-28 10:04:38 AM

ChaosStar: Alphax: ChaosStar: That would be another crime though right? With a victim that could or could not be deceased?
Again I ask, do you get this issue with jaywalking and if not do you still feel that it's a fair comparison?

Yeah, I do.  They're people; perhaps their situation back home was unbearable, and they came out of desperation.  And because of the current crappy system, they may be badly exploited when they get here.  I'm not going to rage at them over it.

So you're pretty much just sticking to your position, not because of logic or reason, but because you're being stubborn and refusing to accept the contrary evidence presenting?
You're right, they're people, but so are the others trying to get in by going through the actual immigration system, possibly for the same reasons.
Having compassion for them is admirable, dismissing a legitimate cause for concern, i.e. the "breaking the law" point, is foolish.


Fixing the laws so they don't have to break them.. is that part bad to you?
 
2013-06-28 10:09:29 AM

Alphax: ChaosStar: Alphax: ChaosStar: That would be another crime though right? With a victim that could or could not be deceased?
Again I ask, do you get this issue with jaywalking and if not do you still feel that it's a fair comparison?

Yeah, I do.  They're people; perhaps their situation back home was unbearable, and they came out of desperation.  And because of the current crappy system, they may be badly exploited when they get here.  I'm not going to rage at them over it.

So you're pretty much just sticking to your position, not because of logic or reason, but because you're being stubborn and refusing to accept the contrary evidence presenting?
You're right, they're people, but so are the others trying to get in by going through the actual immigration system, possibly for the same reasons.
Having compassion for them is admirable, dismissing a legitimate cause for concern, i.e. the "breaking the law" point, is foolish.

Fixing the laws so they don't have to break them.. is that part bad to you?


In this context? Yes.
That's essentially saying that we're going to eliminate identity theft laws so that people stop getting arrested for identity theft.
Fixing the laws without allowing the ones who have already broken the law to have repercussions for their actions doesn't help.
 
2013-06-28 10:10:05 AM

ChaosStar: They're not paying income taxes, John Doe is paying income taxes as they are using his identity.


uh... john doe isn't getting the paycheck. you do know how taxes are paid, don't you - they're withheld.
 
2013-06-28 10:12:11 AM

FlashHarry: ChaosStar: They're not paying income taxes, John Doe is paying income taxes as they are using his identity.

uh... john doe isn't getting the paycheck. you do know how taxes are paid, don't you - they're withheld.


As they are using John Doe's identity, John Doe is paying the taxes, or having them withheld if you prefer.
Yes, they're doing the work, but the identity is paying the taxes.
If they were paying the taxes, they could apply for a refund, no?
 
2013-06-28 10:14:29 AM

ChaosStar: As they are using John Doe's identity, John Doe is paying the taxes, or having them withheld if you prefer.


you're joking, right?

if pedro is using john doe's SSN, pedro receives a paycheck LESS TAXES WITHHELD.  ergo PEDRO IS PAYING TAXES.
 
2013-06-28 10:14:57 AM

FlashHarry: you just know the house republicans will kill it. it's in their nature.

and they'll lose the latino vote for another generation.


Yes, because giving the Latinos amnesty in the 80's resulted in more Latinos voting for Republicans.

Fail.
 
2013-06-28 10:15:48 AM

FlashHarry: ChaosStar: As they are using John Doe's identity, John Doe is paying the taxes, or having them withheld if you prefer.

you're joking, right?

if pedro is using john doe's SSN, pedro receives a paycheck LESS TAXES WITHHELD.  ergo PEDRO IS PAYING TAXES.


No, pedro is doing the work, John Doe is paying the taxes.
If Pedro was paying the taxes, the taxes would be in Pedro's name.
Using caps doesn't make your argument any more valid.
 
2013-06-28 10:16:18 AM

Nutsac_Jim: Yes, because giving the Latinos amnesty in the 80's resulted in more Latinos voting for Republicans.

Fail.


so you're saying that they'll vote democratic no matter what republicans do? even though they tend to be religious and socially conservative?
 
2013-06-28 10:17:51 AM

ChaosStar: No, pedro is doing the work, John Doe is paying the taxes.
If Pedro was paying the taxes, the taxes would be in Pedro's name.
Using caps doesn't make your argument any more valid.


wait - are you serious?  you cannot be serious.

think about this for a second.

who is getting the paycheck every two weeks? pedro or john doe?

whose paycheck is having taxes withheld? pedro or john doe?

now, who is actually paying taxes? pedro or john doe?
 
2013-06-28 10:19:50 AM
go ahead, i'll wait.
 
2013-06-28 10:20:14 AM

ChaosStar: Alphax: ChaosStar: Alphax: ChaosStar: That would be another crime though right? With a victim that could or could not be deceased?
Again I ask, do you get this issue with jaywalking and if not do you still feel that it's a fair comparison?

Yeah, I do.  They're people; perhaps their situation back home was unbearable, and they came out of desperation.  And because of the current crappy system, they may be badly exploited when they get here.  I'm not going to rage at them over it.

So you're pretty much just sticking to your position, not because of logic or reason, but because you're being stubborn and refusing to accept the contrary evidence presenting?
You're right, they're people, but so are the others trying to get in by going through the actual immigration system, possibly for the same reasons.
Having compassion for them is admirable, dismissing a legitimate cause for concern, i.e. the "breaking the law" point, is foolish.

Fixing the laws so they don't have to break them.. is that part bad to you?

In this context? Yes.
That's essentially saying that we're going to eliminate identity theft laws so that people stop getting arrested for identity theft.
Fixing the laws without allowing the ones who have already broken the law to have repercussions for their actions doesn't help.


I think we're done here.  Punishment is ill considered, and not aimed at the people responsible for our crappy immigration laws.
 
2013-06-28 10:20:17 AM

FlashHarry: ChaosStar: No, pedro is doing the work, John Doe is paying the taxes.
If Pedro was paying the taxes, the taxes would be in Pedro's name.
Using caps doesn't make your argument any more valid.

wait - are you serious?  you cannot be serious.

think about this for a second.

who is getting the paycheck every two weeks? pedro or john doe?

whose paycheck is having taxes withheld? pedro or john doe?

now, who is actually paying taxes? pedro or john doe?


I'm very serious.
Who is getting the paycheck? Pedro
Whose paycheck is having taxes withheld? John Doe
Who is actually paying taxes? John Doe
 
2013-06-28 10:22:02 AM

theorellior: seventypercent: But in order for that to happen, Boehner would have to let it come up for a vote, and he's indicated that he won't do that.

Boehner: bad Speaker of the House or Worst Speaker of the House?


I'm looking for your similar comments about Harry Reid not bringing bills up for a vote in the Senate.
I can't seem to find any.  Perhaps you can help me locate one.
 
2013-06-28 10:22:33 AM

ChaosStar: I'm very serious.
Who is getting the paycheck? Pedro
Whose paycheck is having taxes withheld? John Doe
Who is actually paying taxes? John Doe


you... you are trolling me, right? you cannot be this dumb.
 
2013-06-28 10:23:17 AM

Alphax: ChaosStar: Alphax: ChaosStar: Alphax: ChaosStar: That would be another crime though right? With a victim that could or could not be deceased?
Again I ask, do you get this issue with jaywalking and if not do you still feel that it's a fair comparison?

Yeah, I do.  They're people; perhaps their situation back home was unbearable, and they came out of desperation.  And because of the current crappy system, they may be badly exploited when they get here.  I'm not going to rage at them over it.

So you're pretty much just sticking to your position, not because of logic or reason, but because you're being stubborn and refusing to accept the contrary evidence presenting?
You're right, they're people, but so are the others trying to get in by going through the actual immigration system, possibly for the same reasons.
Having compassion for them is admirable, dismissing a legitimate cause for concern, i.e. the "breaking the law" point, is foolish.

Fixing the laws so they don't have to break them.. is that part bad to you?

In this context? Yes.
That's essentially saying that we're going to eliminate identity theft laws so that people stop getting arrested for identity theft.
Fixing the laws without allowing the ones who have already broken the law to have repercussions for their actions doesn't help.

I think we're done here.  Punishment is ill considered, and not aimed at the people responsible for our crappy immigration laws.


I see, so based on your opinion that our laws are crappy, they should be freely ignored?
Interesting.
 
2013-06-28 10:24:13 AM

ChaosStar: I'm very serious.
Who is getting the paycheck? Pedro
Whose paycheck is having taxes withheld? John Doe
Who is actually paying taxes? John Doe


i'm still trying to wrap my head around this.

if it's pedro's paycheck - i.e. he's done the two week's work - and his paycheck is lower because he has taxes taken out... how the fark is john doe paying taxes?
 
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