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(Huffington Post)   Landmark immigration reform bill passes the Senate by a wide margin. Now it's off to die in the House   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 486
    More: Interesting, humans, Reform Act, Senate, Ted Kennedy, John Hoeven, Bob Menendez, Judiciary Committee, lower house  
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3546 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Jun 2013 at 5:04 PM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-27 06:03:34 PM

kendelrio: Anayalator: kendelrio: So this bill will let the current estimated eleven million (11,000,000) illegals bypass the law to become citizens.

"Landmark immigration reform bill passes the Senate by a wide margin. Now it's off to die in the House "

[img0.joyreactor.cc image 600x314]


/let them follow the law to get citizenship.

psssst...hey...a bill  becomeslaw, it doesn't bypass it. Just so you know.

Yes, I saw the cartoons as a kid too.... The point I'm making is why reward their breaking of the law????


Reward or punishment shouldn't be a the prime consideration. It can be a small consideration as part of the "moral hazard" calculation, but the most important consideration is what policy provides the best outcome for Americans in general, and is also affordable.
 
2013-06-27 06:06:04 PM

xaldin: Expel anyone here without proper papers.



farm5.staticflickr.com
 
2013-06-27 06:06:53 PM
Liberals essentially killed the 2005 and 2006 bills with poison pills. The one in 2006 being inserted by Obama breaking with the gang of 14 to sneak the poison pill in.

By my count liberals have killed 2, house gop will kill 1.

How about doing what americans want and put security BEFORE legalization. Only 70% of respondents want that.
 
2013-06-27 06:06:56 PM

Carousel Beast: FlashHarry: you just know the house republicans will kill it. it's in their nature.

and they'll lose the latino vote for another generation.

Ah, Fark liberals. It's amazing how much you venerate putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!"

This bill is truly an landmark. Nothing lie it's ever been done. It's not even a little like the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 . And it definately won't end up the same way, encouraging even more illegal immigration and the attendant social problems. Nope, not this time.


No one is denying this.

I've always said that all this reform is pointless unless you reform the immigration process. I believe that the amount of bureaucratic red-tape and inefficiencies is the #1 motivator for immigrants to arrive here illegally.
 
2013-06-27 06:08:13 PM

xaldin: Has anyone even looked at what Mexico's, or any central/south america country's policies are? We're a free for all in comparison.


I have lived on the Mexican border all my life. Most of the time I had to walk through a turn style fence (no passport or anything). Last time I crossed I just showed a passport.
 
2013-06-27 06:08:31 PM
If we are willing to let half of Mexico become American, then why don't we just merge the countries and call it Amerexico.   We could really use the arable land and fresh water as our population is growing at a rate that it is going to be a real issue in the not to distant future.   In under 30 years, the U.S. population is projected to be over 600 million.
 
2013-06-27 06:08:47 PM

vernonFL: I HATE LIBS: So you support a method which will put overpopulation into overdrive then? Uncontrolled influx of people into this country will have massive problems.

Well no because the border would be more secure. Obviously we might have to revisit the issue if we get cruise ships full of thousands of Hatianss or something swimming over.


Border security was the same song that was sung in 1986, 27 years later we have 11-20 million more illegals. Just wondering how long before we have another group clamoring for an amnesty
 
2013-06-27 06:08:56 PM

MyRandomName: Liberals essentially killed the 2005 and 2006 bills with poison pills. The one in 2006 being inserted by Obama breaking with the gang of 14 to sneak the poison pill in.

By my count liberals have killed 2, house gop will kill 1.

How about doing what americans want and put security BEFORE legalization. Only 70% of respondents want that.


So you are saying the GOP really are the ones who support "amnesty" not the Democrats?
 
2013-06-27 06:09:20 PM

Corvus: I HATE LIBS: theorellior: Okay, Mr. ALL CAPS LOGIN, you got thrown a bone or two, you can go away victorious now.

That's not the point.  Many users on this site kiss ass to the same trolls, its annoying as all get out.

Well why are you not answering any of my question or points to you? Instead you are just trying to argue about stupid stuff?


Because he is a self-admitted troll.
 
2013-06-27 06:10:27 PM

jst3p: Corvus: I HATE LIBS: theorellior: Okay, Mr. ALL CAPS LOGIN, you got thrown a bone or two, you can go away victorious now.

That's not the point.  Many users on this site kiss ass to the same trolls, its annoying as all get out.

Well why are you not answering any of my question or points to you? Instead you are just trying to argue about stupid stuff?

Because he is a self-admitted troll.


ding!! Ding!!!
 
2013-06-27 06:11:14 PM
It's the Dems fault this dies in the House.  Damn bill is so porked up, it should be used to make sausage.
 
2013-06-27 06:11:14 PM

Pumpernickel bread: If we are willing to let half of Mexico become American, then why don't we just merge the countries and call it Amerexico.   We could really use the arable land and fresh water as our population is growing at a rate that it is going to be a real issue in the not to distant future.   In under 30 years, the U.S. population is projected to be over 600 million.


Also: the drugs.
 
2013-06-27 06:12:46 PM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: It's the Dems fault this dies in the House.  Damn bill is so porked up, it should be used to make sausage.


They won't take the blame though. Hispanic voters will blame the GoP
 
2013-06-27 06:13:17 PM
 
2013-06-27 06:13:33 PM

MyRandomName: Liberals essentially killed the 2005 and 2006 bills with poison pills. The one in 2006 being inserted by Obama breaking with the gang of 14 to sneak the poison pill in.


And what poison pills are those?

/I know, in your eyes, the Republicans can do no wrong
 
2013-06-27 06:14:23 PM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Damn bill is so porked up, it should be used to make sausage.


Such as.....
 
2013-06-27 06:14:51 PM

kendelrio: /let them follow the law to get citizenship.


That's a great way to look at it.

Tell me again - what is the legal path for a farm laborer "to get citizenship?"
 
2013-06-27 06:16:25 PM
I'm really surprised that the GOP would object to locking down some cheap labor with promises of citizenship. As a bonus, they'll get an opportunity to feel even more threatened and fearful of the growing brown menace (great band name).
 
2013-06-27 06:17:08 PM
I see my worthless Senator Ron Johnson (R-WI) didn't bother to vote as usual. What does this worthless idiot do all day?

ronjohnsonforsenate.com

"I didn't bother to vote on historic immigration legislation because I'm a lazy leaching Tea Bagger that basically does nothing useful." -Ron Johnson (R-WI)
 
2013-06-27 06:17:42 PM
The way I see it we have many problems, in no particular order

1)People brought here as kids
2)People living off the radar
3)Exploitation of workers
4)Poorly metered influx of people who, by their own presence, depress wages.
5)Social support of those people

(Am I missing any issues?)

I don't know the full text of the bill.  How does this bill affect or address these issues?
 
2013-06-27 06:18:26 PM
If they can get rewarded for breaking the law then I should be able to rape, pillage and commit mopery for profit too.
 
2013-06-27 06:18:30 PM
WHY DONT THEY IMMIGRATE LEGALLY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

http://reason.org/files/a87d1550853898a9b306ef458f116079.pdf  (pdf warning)
 
2013-06-27 06:18:58 PM

Biological Ali: It has to pass though, right? I mean, doesn't it need only a simple majority in the House? Are there any procedural tricks in the House like the filibuster to prevent something like this from happening?


This would certainly pass the House.

BUT:

John Boehner has complete control of what comes up for a vote.

John Boehner has been told that he will no longer be speaker if he brings it up.

John Boehner cares more about his job than anything in the world.

Therefore, this will not be voted on.
 
2013-06-27 06:19:52 PM

Testiclaw: Conservatives don't like context or reasonable approaches to real-world problems.


This is simply not true.  But in every case like this, (Big political splash issue)  the democrats shove so much pork into it, or Obama poison pills, no reasonable person can vote for it.

Go find another strawman, yours is on fire.
 
2013-06-27 06:19:54 PM

Corvus: jst3p: Corvus: I HATE LIBS: theorellior: Okay, Mr. ALL CAPS LOGIN, you got thrown a bone or two, you can go away victorious now.

That's not the point.  Many users on this site kiss ass to the same trolls, its annoying as all get out.

Well why are you not answering any of my question or points to you? Instead you are just trying to argue about stupid stuff?

Because he is a self-admitted troll.

ding!! Ding!!!


That must be the sounds of the bats in your bell-free.

The other uses get it, obviously you didn't.
 
2013-06-27 06:20:26 PM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Testiclaw: Conservatives don't like context or reasonable approaches to real-world problems.

This is simply not true.  But in every case like this, (Big political splash issue)  the democrats shove so much pork into it, or Obama poison pills, no reasonable person can vote for it.

Go find another strawman, yours is on fire.


Like?
 
2013-06-27 06:21:06 PM

Testiclaw: vernonFL: Biological Ali: keep a bill from coming up for a vote even if a majority would vote for it?

Yeah but in this case, the majority from his party wouldn't vote for it - its a stupid thing called the "Hastert rule" which isn't even a rule.

I had no clue about the "Hastert Rule", so I did a quick Wiki and then slammed my head into the desk.

What a complete crock of shiat. If a bill has the votes, it should be voted on, period.

Figures it is named after a Reptilzican.


Party before country, always.
 
2013-06-27 06:21:25 PM

Biological Ali: qorkfiend: Indeed he can; from what I understand, the schedule is almost entirely at the Speaker's discretion.

Thanks (and to the others that replied as well) for the clarification. If I'm understanding it correctly, it would seem that under certain circumstances, a small number of people who oppose a bill could make its passage as difficult in the House as it already is in the Senate. This seems to me to be the opposite of what should be the case.


It is very different from the Senate filibuster.

The filibuster allows the minority party (assuming they can muster enough votes) to prevent any legislation from being voted on. I think this should be more difficult and limited at some point, but the idea is very good.
For the case being discussed, the speaker alone (a leader of the majority party) can prevent any legislation from being voted on. No matter how much support it has, theoretically even if every other member supports it (practically there is a limit as he would lose his job if it were popular enough).

Now, the logical thing a legislature would have is a periodic day (say, once a month) when the opposition can introduce whatever bills they want and have them voted on.

Now, it makes sense why he is doing this, similar to Christie wanting a referendum on gay marriage, Boehner can claim to the base that he stopped it while saying to moderates that it wasn't his fault, he was obligated to follow this unwritten rule (and conveniently ignore the times he didn't do so).
 
2013-06-27 06:21:42 PM

novalord2: WHY DONT THEY IMMIGRATE LEGALLY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

http://reason.org/files/a87d1550853898a9b306ef458f116079.pdf  (pdf warning)


Usually I think Reason goes off the derp end with some of their stuff but they are spot on when it comes to the bureaucratic clusterfark that is our immigration system.
 
2013-06-27 06:21:49 PM

Hollie Maea: Biological Ali: It has to pass though, right? I mean, doesn't it need only a simple majority in the House? Are there any procedural tricks in the House like the filibuster to prevent something like this from happening?

This would certainly pass the House.

BUT:

John Boehner has complete control of what comes up for a vote.

John Boehner has been told that he will no longer be speaker if he brings it up.

John Boehner cares more about his job scotch than anything in the world.

Therefore, this will not be voted on.


Agreed. But I did fix your sole error.
 
2013-06-27 06:23:23 PM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: But in every case like this, (Big political splash issue) the democrats shove so much pork into it, or Obama poison pills, no reasonable person can vote for it.


Such as?
 
2013-06-27 06:24:18 PM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: It's the Dems fault this dies in the House.  Damn bill is so porked up, it should be used to make sausage.


Actually, the GOP has stated that their opposition to the bill is based solely on the fact that it's an immigration reform bill, not pork included in the bill.

just an fyi
 
2013-06-27 06:26:32 PM

jst3p: Corvus: I HATE LIBS: theorellior: Okay, Mr. ALL CAPS LOGIN, you got thrown a bone or two, you can go away victorious now.

That's not the point.  Many users on this site kiss ass to the same trolls, its annoying as all get out.

Well why are you not answering any of my question or points to you? Instead you are just trying to argue about stupid stuff?

Because he is a self-admitted troll.


Exactly. Why reward it with any attention at all?
 
2013-06-27 06:26:59 PM
Goddamn cynical Republicans voting yes because they know they can count on their companions in the House to crush the bill, but they want to appear to support Hispanics. Vote how you really feel.
 
2013-06-27 06:27:37 PM
So the conservative side solutions I see here seem to be:

Build a 1950 mile long wall
Deploy troops along a 1950 mile border with orders to shoot to kill
Deport everyone in the country illegally

And y'all plan to pay for this... how?
 
2013-06-27 06:28:04 PM

make me some tea: Also, may I present the few reasonable Republicans left:

[fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net image 810x810]


They aren't reasonable. See my above post. This is cynical opportunism. I guarantee that if the Dems controlled the House, every single one of them would have filibustered this.
 
2013-06-27 06:28:38 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: So the conservative side solutions I see here seem to be:

Build a 1950 mile long wall
Deploy troops along a 1950 mile border with orders to shoot to kill
Deport everyone in the country illegally

And y'all plan to pay for this... how?


Tax cuts.
 
2013-06-27 06:29:16 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: MaudlinMutantMollusk: So the conservative side solutions I see here seem to be:

Build a 1950 mile long wall
Deploy troops along a 1950 mile border with orders to shoot to kill
Deport everyone in the country illegally

And y'all plan to pay for this... how?

Tax cuts.


D'oh!

/of course
//WTF was I thinking?
 
2013-06-27 06:29:33 PM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Testiclaw: Conservatives don't like context or reasonable approaches to real-world problems.

This is simply not true.  But in every case like this, (Big political splash issue)  the democrats shove so much pork into it, or Obama poison pills, no reasonable person can vote for it.

Go find another strawman, yours is on fire.


Obama poison pills?

I don't have the time or the crayons to try and explain things to you.
 
2013-06-27 06:29:37 PM
The moderate Republicans in the House could fix this at any time.  Agree with the Democrats to choose a new speaker--the most liberal (more or less) in the House.  They could easily bring down Boehner with a Dem/Moderate GOP coalition.  This would completely and utterly remove all power from the Tea Party, and would likely save the party, which otherwise will not survive this.
 
2013-06-27 06:30:02 PM

I HATE LIBS: Corvus: jst3p: Corvus: I HATE LIBS: theorellior: Okay, Mr. ALL CAPS LOGIN, you got thrown a bone or two, you can go away victorious now.

That's not the point.  Many users on this site kiss ass to the same trolls, its annoying as all get out.

Well why are you not answering any of my question or points to you? Instead you are just trying to argue about stupid stuff?

Because he is a self-admitted troll.

ding!! Ding!!!

That must be the sounds of the bats in your bell-free.

The other uses get it, obviously you didn't.


It's called a belfry. Just because you're terrible at trolling doesn't mean you have to be terrible at spelling, too.
 
2013-06-27 06:30:11 PM

Carousel Beast: This bill is truly an landmark.


a landmark
 
2013-06-27 06:30:37 PM

I HATE LIBS: vernonFL: I HATE LIBS: what is your solution for the illegals that don't go become citizens?

They get indefinite work permits and as long as they don't commit crimes and they pay taxes, they can stay.


Hallelujah. Finally someone can read.

So you support a method which will put overpopulation into overdrive then?  Uncontrolled influx of people into this country will have massive problems.


You do realize we can fit the entire population of the US into Texas and give them 2 square kilometers each to boot. Over population is not a major dager in the US. Having to live in Texas though...
 
2013-06-27 06:31:08 PM

Princess Ryans Knickers: Carousel Beast: This bill is truly an landmark.

a landmark


It's okay, the n is silent.
 
2013-06-27 06:31:11 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Lt. Cheese Weasel: Damn bill is so porked up, it should be used to make sausage.

Such as.....


Such as that part where they let the brown people stay!!!!
 
2013-06-27 06:32:08 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: So the conservative side solutions I see here seem to be:

Build a 1950 mile long wall
Deploy troops along a 1950 mile border with orders to shoot to kill
Deport everyone in the country illegally

And y'all plan to pay for this... how?


Jesus, tax cuts and Second Amendment Solutions™.
 
2013-06-27 06:32:09 PM

dywed88: Now, it makes sense why he is doing this, similar to Christie wanting a referendum on gay marriage, Boehner can claim to the base that he stopped it while saying to moderates that it wasn't his fault, he was obligated to follow this unwritten rule (and conveniently ignore the times he didn't do so).


See, I just don't see how it's possible to pull that off. At least when a bill can't break filibuster in the Senate, opponents can disingenuously claim that it "didn't have enough votes". The fact that he can do this may be apparent enough, but who exactly is going to buy his argument (assuming he makes it) that he's powerless to act otherwise? I mean, the base I guess, but surely moderates aren't going to be that stupid (hopefully not a majority of them anyway)?
 
2013-06-27 06:33:16 PM

Infernalist: Lt. Cheese Weasel: It's the Dems fault this dies in the House.  Damn bill is so porked up, it should be used to make sausage.

Actually, the GOP has stated that their opposition to the bill is based solely on the fact that it's an immigration reform bill, not pork included in the bill.

just an fyi


If what I read is accurate, they would like to see it carved up into 4 bills, with alot more clarity/verbage surrounding where the dollars come from.  Dems want to make the big political splash, money be damned. Business as usual. The bill is DOA.
 
2013-06-27 06:33:58 PM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: It's the Dems fault this dies in the House.  Damn bill is so porked up, it should be used to make sausage.


It was the Republicans who demanded that more amendments be added to it not the Democrats.

The "pork" is the added border security that Republicans demanded.
 
2013-06-27 06:34:58 PM

sufferpuppet: dear illegals,

[ct.fra.bz image 600x339]


I bet you drove over the speed limit to get to work today.
 
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