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(New York Magazine)   Tear-jerking video of dog burying dead puppy was not compassion... it was food preparation   (nymag.com) divider line 139
    More: Followup, cooking, dog burying, The Christian Post, Museum of Natural History, compassion, Daily Intelligencer, dogs  
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15590 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jun 2013 at 5:04 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-27 08:42:46 PM

J. Frank Parnell: Of course it has to be something like that. The idea animals aren't just meat robots god put here for us to exploit, and might have emotions just like us, is ridiculous.

And now here are a bunch of scientists.


Not sure if PETA, ALF, or Vegan.
 
2013-06-27 08:43:36 PM

FarkinNortherner: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: And when your dog snuggles up to you on the couch, it's because he loves you. It has nothing to do with the fact that you're a heat source.

I don't believe that my dogs are capable of love in any sense relating to the human emotion, but I strongly doubt that the one who up-ended a cooler full of ice water which he then lay in (he's a Spitz and a moron), with air temperatures in the 40s, snuggles me for warmth. Something to do with pack safety, maybe?


Maybe you're just a good snuggler :)
 
2013-06-27 08:46:33 PM

omeganuepsilon: Not sure if PETA, ALF, or Vegan.


Nope, but i must have touched a nerve there. Don't worry, man. You're more important to god than all those filthy animals. I didn't mean to upset your christian sensibilities.
 
2013-06-27 08:54:17 PM
I had a dog that used to do this with wildlife it caught.  We fed it fine so it never went back for some things that were a joy to come across.  Most looked like a grisly crime scene.  Fur and tenderized flesh sliding off of a mound of meat.  I'm sure that dog was hoping to come back in a week and find some ground stew.
 
2013-06-27 09:01:47 PM

Kejlina: When I was a child, my beagle had pups. One died after a fall. I remember watching the dog bury her pup.

I think a mama dog will bury her dead pup to avoid attracting predators to her live pups.


That's the other obvious answer.

Well, rather, it may be an instinct that helped them in the past, not that it's consciously done.

In fact, it's akin to why we do it.  We don't bury out of respect, we started burying and made it into a ritual.

Some tried to keep it in the house with them, but they get sick when the bloated corpse bursts...and learn, eventually "Oh...so  that's why everyone else buries them!"  Eventually wisdom is handed down and people stop  holding onto the dead in the literal sense.

It's simply more sanitary.  Kinda like not shiatting in your kitchen.

We don't even need to think about it, we just go as far away as possible, and poop.  Because poop stinks.
Some dogs do the same, and quite obviously, some will not.  Some will attempt to eat their own poop. So, like humans, some are smarter than others.

We bury our refuse for the same reasons.  We know it draws animals, is unpleasant to sight and smell.

Dogs cannot hand down that wisdom the way we can(well, we can in theory...), so they repeat mistakes, and on occasion when instinct gives them the impetus to bury something, people try to find meaning in it,  because, god.

/shakes head
 
2013-06-27 09:02:12 PM

trappedspirit: I had a dog that used to do this with wildlife it caught.  We fed it fine so it never went back for some things that were a joy to come across.  Most looked like a grisly crime scene.  Fur and tenderized flesh sliding off of a mound of meat.  I'm sure that dog was hoping to come back in a week and find some ground stew.


So you were digging up things the dog buried and never went back for, or are talking about things it killed and didn't bury?
 
2013-06-27 09:04:33 PM

J. Frank Parnell: omeganuepsilon: Not sure if PETA, ALF, or Vegan.

Nope, but i must have touched a nerve there. Don't worry, man. You're more important to god than all those filthy animals. I didn't mean to upset your christian sensibilities.


Because I don't irrationally humanize animals, I have christian sensibilities?

That is rich.

You may want to check my last post.  I did talk about god, but not quite in the way you're assuming.
 
2013-06-27 09:07:50 PM

J. Frank Parnell: trappedspirit: I had a dog that used to do this with wildlife it caught.  We fed it fine so it never went back for some things that were a joy to come across.  Most looked like a grisly crime scene.  Fur and tenderized flesh sliding off of a mound of meat.  I'm sure that dog was hoping to come back in a week and find some ground stew.

So you were digging up things the dog buried and never went back for, or are talking about things it killed and didn't bury?


The former.
 
2013-06-27 09:08:59 PM
It is instinctive behavior to bury for dogs.  The instinct is there like spinning before laying down,   My dogs will circle around extra long and slowly when told to lay down and they don't want to, complete with a loud sigh.  Circling before laying down may be an instinctive thing, but in the moment they can express themselves in ways that are not simply anthropomorphic projections.

It doesn't threaten anyone's "soul" or "superior intellect" to admit that our domesticated dogs are capable of communicating at about the level of a two or three year old.

What is it like to be a bat, er ... dog?  That is the question really being raised here.
 
2013-06-27 09:22:59 PM

J. Frank Parnell: Of course it has to be something like that. The idea animals aren't just meat robots god put here for us to exploit, and might have emotions just like us, is ridiculous.

And now here are a bunch of scientists.


The leap from "animals have emotions" to "animals engage in ritualistic grief rituals" is a mighty big one.
 
2013-06-27 09:26:05 PM

omeganuepsilon: Because I don't irrationally humanize animals, I have christian sensibilities?

That is rich.

You may want to check my last post. I did talk about god, but not quite in the way you're assuming.


it's not about humanizing anything. If i were to tell you a crab has legs, would you say that's impossible because humans have legs, and i'm attempting to humanize crabs?

Religious people are often those who treat animals with disrespect. And i guessed that's where you're coming from. But you could still just be a psycho who likes hurting living things, but doing it to humans might get you arrested, so you do it to animals.
 
2013-06-27 09:27:50 PM

Snapper Carr: J. Frank Parnell: Of course it has to be something like that. The idea animals aren't just meat robots god put here for us to exploit, and might have emotions just like us, is ridiculous.

And now here are a bunch of scientists.

The leap from "animals have emotions" to "animals engage in ritualistic grief rituals" is a mighty big one.


This message brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department
 
2013-06-27 09:39:50 PM
That don't look like no puppy to me.  Looks more like a Lamb!
3.bp.blogspot.com
When humans struggle they will eat whatever they can find. My dog is picky as a mother farker when it comes to eating because he's well fed. He might go bury left overs, but he rarely digs them back up.
 
2013-06-27 09:55:30 PM

Greylight: It doesn't threaten anyone's "soul" or "superior intellect" to admit that our domesticated dogs are capable of communicating at about the level of a two or three year old.


I wouldn't necessarily back that claim.  They're both smart and incredibly retarded in a variety of ways, and that varies dog to dog and child to child.   I don't think they are comparable.  They are similar, but still alien.  A lot of what we "know" is still conjecture, superstition, and flat out guessing.

Not calling the claim a lie, not meaning offense, just calling it misleading and/or not applicable....wrongly confident?  I hope the concept comesacross anyhow...
 
2013-06-27 09:59:50 PM

omeganuepsilon: Greylight: It doesn't threaten anyone's "soul" or "superior intellect" to admit that our domesticated dogs are capable of communicating at about the level of a two or three year old.

I wouldn't necessarily back that claim.  They're both smart and incredibly retarded in a variety of ways, and that varies dog to dog and child to child.   I don't think they are comparable.  They are similar, but still alien.  A lot of what we "know" is still conjecture, superstition, and flat out guessing.

Not calling the claim a lie, not meaning offense, just calling it misleading and/or not applicable....wrongly confident?  I hope the concept comesacross anyhow...


Man is everything a dog looks for in a pack leader: we like to eat meat and love to throw the OMG BALL!
 
2013-06-27 10:13:16 PM

nmemkha: Man is everything a dog looks for in a pack leader: we like to eat meat and love to throw the OMG BALL!


Then you have a child which becomes more important to you than the dog, and you think the dog will protect your child, but instead tears your child into pieces.

Because dogs are loyal to you. And stupid.
 
2013-06-27 10:24:13 PM

J. Frank Parnell: omeganuepsilon: Because I don't irrationally humanize animals, I have christian sensibilities?

That is rich.

You may want to check my last post. I did talk about god, but not quite in the way you're assuming.

it's not about humanizing anything. If i were to tell you a crab has legs, would you say that's impossible because humans have legs, and i'm attempting to humanize crabs?


Why even ask that?
I don't claim the dogs don't have emotions or even love.  I'm saying some do, some don't.  Some are smart bastards, some are lazy farkers you can hardly tell are alive.

Passing off a common burial as ritual(in the quasi-religious emotionally moving sense), though, is as preposterous as god is the answer to why the sun comes up.

 The digging is a mundane activity dogs do all the time.  To assume there's more because it resembles what humans do in this circumstance, is a non sequitur, does not follow.


Just for fun before I take off for a bit(dunno how long)
If I decide to drink tonite, and you decide to drink tonite, do we both do so for the same reasons?

Maybe, but without proof, asserting we now know fact is a falsehood.

I'll let you play the human:
Maybe you just broke up with your SO, maybe you want to have a good time with friends, maybe you want to get pleasantly tipsy and play video games or read, maybe you just wanted to go to bed earlier, or are satisfying a toothache.

I'll play the dog:
Maybe, being as my lineage dating back to the 1700s are all severe addicts, drinking is a chronic problem in my family.  Maybe I have gotten drunk for the last 176 days in a row.

But why do I drink tonite?

I can rationalize whatever I want, but when it comes down to it, because of my history and that of my ancestry, it is a pretty sure bet it is because I think I NEED to, and my body actively yearns for it, the very thought of it excites me, if I had a tail it'd be wagging. if my mouth were open I'd be drooling.  I could open wine bottles in my sleep with muscle memory and reflex.

Base principle of the modern usage of Occam's Razor.
 
2013-06-27 11:13:02 PM
During the first or second season of Big Cat Diary a wild buffalo or something killed a kitten of a lioness's litter.  The lioness promptly ate it, without sharing it with the rest of the litter.  It was her own offspring, but the minute it was dead, that "maternal protective instinct" was no longer there - it was just meat.  The mother did her best to protect them during the attack, but the minute it was over she went all Bobby Knight and "if you aren't performing, you aren't worth shiat."

Wild animals do not do things humans do for the same reasons.  It's just coincidence.  Period.  I don't believe for a minute that a human mother would eat her own baby if she was starving, much less if the baby just happened to be killed by happenstance and it was fresh meat.
 
2013-06-27 11:16:00 PM

kg2095: Ral: Well duh.  Dogs don't bury their dead.  That's ridiculous.

Do they eat their dead? I've never heard of dog cannibalism before.


Anything will eat anything if it's hungry enough usually. Even people.

As far as the dog goes. It may or may not have thought the puppy was a good snack. Or, not being quite that hungry, it may have just buried it because that's what you do with organics around your home/den site. Dogs even kick dirt to help cover their poo (although they're not as picky about it as cats usually are.)

 You don't leave organic matter hanging around where you do. At the very least it's generally not healthy/pleasant. At the worst it invites predators...bigger than you are.
 
2013-06-27 11:20:09 PM

omeganuepsilon: eraser8: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: And when your dog snuggles up to you on the couch, it's because he loves you. It has nothing to do with the fact that you're a heat source.

Studies have shown that dogs receive a "hit" of oxytocin when they come into affectionate contact with their human.  The human, by the way, also receives a hit..similar to the one a human mother gets when she breast feeds her baby.

JesseL: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: And when your dog snuggles up to you on the couch, it's because he loves you. It has nothing to do with the fact that you're a heat source.

It might have something to do with that, but it might also have something to do with the fact that dogs are a subspecies of the grey wolf which is a social animal that uses physical contact to establish and maintain familial bonds.

People humanize their pets all the time, I think, was what he was saying.

Yeah, dogs can love an individual...cuddle for closeness to that person.

But they also can do this with complete strangers, leaving the (humanizing)owner feeling abandoned and neglected.

It's a dog, not a person.  It is a pack animal, and outside normal human boundaries and concepts of love.

Most dogs treat ALL humans the same general way unless they feel threatened(bark at everyone, cuddle with everyone, playful with everyone, beg for attention to anyone that will give it).  Unless a reason comes along for them to treat that person differently.


Except the periodic dog that pines himself to death after his long time master shuffles off this mortal coil.

/dogs cover a wide range of behavior and thought, just like people.
 
2013-06-27 11:26:27 PM

o'really: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom:


"And when your dog snuggles up to you on the couch, it's because he loves you. It has nothing to do with the fact that you're a heat source."

Add to that it licks your mouth because it is "kissing" you. Not because you have food particles lingering in your teeth.


(annoyed sigh)

 No, it licks your mouth because that's an inborn trait from wolves when they ask older pack members for food as puppies (older wolves then puke it up for them).

 It's also a submissive trait due to that.

/it's one thing to anthropomorphize animals.
//it's equally wrong to subscribe zero behavior reasoning to their actions.
///dogs are not robots with a binary "like" and "dislike" programmed for every action they take.
 
2013-06-27 11:28:35 PM

cuzsis: At the worst it invites predators...bigger than you are.


Here on the farm is the usual progression:  something big dies, like a deer that got hit by a car and made it onto the property.  If you leave it, the crows come first, then the turkey vultures.  Those attract the bobcats and the errant hunting dog that has been lost since last year.  Eventually the field mice and rats show up, and those attract the owls, eagles, snakes, and any feral cat within a 200 mile radius.

If any of this is done within earshot or a visible view of our dog, she barks.  And barks.  And barks.  It can take three weeks for a full size deer carcass to eventually get to the level I can run over it with the tractor and turn it into mulch for the yard, and as long as there is another animal around still investigating it, the dog barks.

I can easily see why a dog would bury a dead anything.  Wild dogs do not like other wildlife invading their territory.  A dead animal is like a giant batman light for all other wild animals.
 
2013-06-27 11:34:21 PM

Lsherm: During the first or second season of Big Cat Diary a wild buffalo or something killed a kitten of a lioness's litter.  The lioness promptly ate it, without sharing it with the rest of the litter.  It was her own offspring, but the minute it was dead, that "maternal protective instinct" was no longer there - it was just meat.  The mother did her best to protect them during the attack, but the minute it was over she went all Bobby Knight and "if you aren't performing, you aren't worth shiat."

Wild animals do not do things humans do for the same reasons.  It's just coincidence.  Period.  I don't believe for a minute that a human mother would eat her own baby if she was starving, much less if the baby just happened to be killed by happenstance and it was fresh meat.


Yeah, lions are kind of known for that. I haven't seen it documented regularly in wolves yet. I would be curious to see if they shared the same trait or not. I know they will eat newborn puppies if they are stillborn, or sometimes bury them. That's more of a "keeping the den clean" action though.

 Dogs will sometimes howl when other dogs (pack members) die. I'm pretty sure I've heard of this in wolves too. It's been a long time though, I'd need to go back and do some re-reading.
 
2013-06-27 11:51:37 PM

Voiceofreason01: I grok that

/obscure?


Not at all, Mr. Smith.
 
2013-06-28 12:00:48 AM
cuzsis-
Why the
(annoyed sigh)?

I was basically saying the same thing as you.
 
2013-06-28 02:08:07 AM
That's exactly what I told my wife when she made me watch that.I thought it was amazing that so many people would be watching that thinking "Awww. How cute"
 
2013-06-28 03:03:47 AM
i.qkme.me
 
2013-06-28 03:19:17 AM

cuzsis: Except the periodic dog that pines himself to death after his long time master shuffles off this mortal coil.

/dogs cover a wide range of behavior and thought, just like people.


That's rare if not outright mythical.

Hyper attached dogs will tend to wait in doorways for the master to return, or sleep on their bed every night, or even on the graves of their former owners though, sometimes for a really really long time.(days weeks months, maybe more).

Not sure even that's love though.  Can be explained with dependancy on the alpha and regular anxiety of knowing something is wrong but not knowing what exactly, only that the leader is gone.

The vigilance could have served through evolution as a an alertness.  "The big guy is gone, I'd better keep a lookout now that he's not around to protect us."  Many dogs sit at windows and doorways the whole day the owner is at work, for example. When the alpha leaves, and is gone long enough, they may try to find him.  I think the "mourning" is just the common separation anxiety not being resolved.

My current dog does it.  he know's part of the pack is gone and is not completely whole till they come back. But when we take him to my sister's to dogsit if we need to go somewhere for a few days, and then leave, he settles right in, no anxiety(except for pissing on things in new territory and such conflict with their dog).

Sure, it's bonding, maybe even love, but I'd just about bet that if another alpha(proper) came around the "mourning" would be over fairly quick.  IIRC, when an alpha position in an actual group of pack animals, loyalties shift pretty fast, and no signs are really seen about loss to the exiled one.(when it goes that way). During the fight they're all on edge "omg omg omg omg" the new guy wins, and the plop back down or run the weak one out if he didn't already go.

I don't think it's love as we understand it, so using the term is disingenuous or misleading, imo.
Unwavering loyalty, until dethroned, and then unwavering loyalty again to the new guy.

As I said, alien, different.  sure, they have oxytocin and all the same hormones, but they do slightly different things in the different brain, to the consciousness and the subconsciousness.

Trying to define all that in human terms is anthropomorphizing, maybe even a kind of conceited projection, but not so much any real empathy.
 
2013-06-28 03:27:50 AM

omeganuepsilon: Trying to define all that in human terms is anthropomorphizing,


Worded that wrong, blech, past my bedtime.

Trying to shoehorn them into human proprieties is anthromorphizing.
They evolved in packs completely independant from us from a branch pretty far removed from our own.

Define in human terms where you can, but words like alpha had to be loaned out to describe the hierarchy, because we didn't quite have the term needed.  THAT was a leap in understanding pack animals.  Sure, we can pretend human's had it a very very long time ago, but it's been so long we have no memories of it. We had to generate new information by observation and are winging it even today.

If we ever meet an actual intelligent alien, we're hosed.
 
2013-06-28 04:46:01 AM
What I want to know is how the animal instinct to bury food for later use relates to our burial practices. Sure, today no one is thinking of food, but do we know how long burials have been going on for? Was it even our Homo Sapiens Sapiens ancestors who started it? How far back in the lineage of man does the practice of burial go? At what point did it go from an instinctive thing to a conscious, ritualistic and solemn act?

Or is it completely unrelated?
 
2013-06-28 05:59:30 AM
It's worth remembering that burial of the dead isn't universal among humans. Other cultures do everything from burning the dead to laying them out in open-air towers to be eaten by scavenger birds.
 
2013-06-28 07:11:12 AM
Well, if the surviving dog needs food, what's the problem with that?
 
2013-06-28 07:24:15 AM

eraser8: burning_bridge: You think this stupid animal is capable of performing some symbolic act of mourning?

I have absolutely no idea.  But, I'm not willing to disregard the hypothesis before it's actually tested.

burning_bridge: Elephants, which are clearly far more intelligent, will mourn for other elephants but even they don't express it in abstract means.

And, chimpanzees, quite intelligent and our closest genetic relative, are not able to understand human thinking as well as dogs are.


That is an excellent video, especially as you were able to start it at its starting point as it pertains to this thread.  Kudos.
 
2013-06-28 08:59:07 AM

Voiceofreason01: I grok that

/obscure?


Shoot yourself.
 
2013-06-28 09:20:07 AM
i211.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-28 09:52:24 AM
Can't see how anyone at all familiar with dogs could've mistaken this for grieving.  The dog's just workmanlike about it, and using the sniff test to tell him what parts still need covering.  There's no social sniffing or even curiosity sniffing.  He's smelled carrion from a distance and is just burying it.
 
2013-06-28 03:25:17 PM

Rapmaster2000: Tumunga: Super Chronic: I hadn't seen this until just now, but my response is.... duh.  Did anyone really think a dog was engaging in a spontaneous grieving ritual?

Anyway, curious to know what kind of dog that is.  Looks sorta like a Brittany, though with darker spots.

The Libtards at HuffPo do.

2/10.  No one uses libtard in a non-ironic fashion.


It was ironically non-ironic.
 
2013-06-28 11:13:58 PM
Ironically, this is the last post.
 
2013-06-28 11:28:25 PM

WTFDYW: Ironically, this is the last post.


Wut?
 
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