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(BBC)   Japanese man sues nation's largest broadcaster because of encroaching English loan words. Sounds like someone's in deep toraburu   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 85
    More: Strange, English Words, NHK, English, Japanese, Japan, mental distress  
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3441 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jun 2013 at 12:05 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-27 12:07:28 PM
To paraphrase Basil Fawlty: Who does he think won the war, anyway?
 
2013-06-27 12:09:11 PM
Get used to it. Just about every major language these days has been anglicized for the most part.
 
2013-06-27 12:12:14 PM
Interesting. I detest the use of loan words when there are perfectly good, explicit equivalents.

People all over the world replace their native words with english ones, to show separate themselves from the poor people.

It's all fun and games until someone has kids... and you should hear their kids speak.

Poor native language vocabulary and terrible english.

/joke's on them I guess
 
2013-06-27 12:12:36 PM
No worse than the people in the "Speak English" movement in America.

Japanese is a very limited language which is why they use more loan words and onomatopoeia, but a lot of the older generation don't like that younger people are using English and American loan words more frequently.
 
2013-06-27 12:13:31 PM
In Japan there are entire dictionaries full of English loan words targeted at older folks who aren't up to date on the hip lingo kids are using these days.
 
2013-06-27 12:18:38 PM
i406.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-27 12:19:03 PM
Welcome to the NHK./Too obscure?
 
2013-06-27 12:19:55 PM
Really Japan? Complaining about foreign influence when your cartoons are ALL about white people?

img1.ak.crunchyroll.com

/ so kawaii :3
 
2013-06-27 12:20:22 PM
From one of David Sedaris' books:

"shotokeke" - short-cake
 
2013-06-27 12:21:08 PM

Kozaru: In Japan there are entire dictionaries full of English loan words targeted at older folks who aren't up to date on the hip lingo kids are using these days.


Which, given that the Japanese, esepcially the older ones, have never REALLY renounced that whole "Ve are Ze Master Race" thing, at least in their hearts that's GOT to be killing them.  However if my linguistic studies via Saturday Night Live are correct, nearly any word can be "japanese-ified" simply by adding "Duhduh" to the end
 
2013-06-27 12:21:12 PM
What was annoying to me during my time in Japan was the use of borrowed words to make things sound racier or more sinister when perfectly good Japanese words existed. For example, when the bodies of a pair of murder victims were found wrapped in a blue tarp, the reported kept talking about  ブルー シツ  (buru shiatsu, or "blue sheets").
 
2013-06-27 12:25:43 PM
Half of the English language is borrowed from French,  way more than the handful of words they list.
 
2013-06-27 12:26:30 PM
Oh no, there goes Tokyo.
 
2013-06-27 12:26:38 PM
Chikubi wa kimochii.  Omanko wa suwatte onegai.

Soko, soko.  Ikku, ikku.

Ikku!
 
2013-06-27 12:27:06 PM

Kozaru: In Japan there are entire dictionaries full of English loan words targeted at older folks who aren't up to date on the hip lingo kids are using these days.


True.  'Elevator' and 'pink pen' are the devil's lingo.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-06-27 12:27:59 PM
i.animecrazy.net
Now shaddup, Baka
 
2013-06-27 12:30:13 PM
Da Fuq?  I am an American and I cant even understand these Americanized words...   I hope this guy wins the lawsuit!  This is like fighting against spanglish!
 
2013-06-27 12:31:29 PM
Maybe he's just ronery.
 
2013-06-27 12:33:06 PM
Japan: Asia's France.
 
2013-06-27 12:36:46 PM
at least they aren't being koi about how they feel, but if they don't like it, daikon go fark themselves
 
2013-06-27 12:39:33 PM

JonnyBGoode: Japan: Asia's France.


Well, except for the "surrender monkey" bit and the part where France is the only country to have lost two wars when fighting against Italians.

/granted, one of those two wars was when the Romans had their way with Gaul, but still....
 
2013-06-27 12:40:26 PM

Maul555: Da Fuq?  I am an American and I cant even understand these Americanized words...   I hope this guy wins the lawsuit!  This is like fighting against spanglish!


Japanese is hamstrung by their phonetic kanji, so they can't just take an English word as-is because they can't write it. So it gets changed to the extent they can write it phonetically.

So says my Japanese major of a son - native speakers can correct my ham-fisted explanation.
 
2013-06-27 12:42:06 PM
He sounds French.

In the long run, this kind of thing must fail. Loan words only shock because they are new, like changes in meaning or grammar. The school-marms of prescriptive grammar attempt to hold back the flood but they ultimately fail because the masses ignore their prescriptions or only adopt them in special contexts, such as when talking to school marms.

And because it is the novelty that is the crime, the school marms and prescrptive grammarians fail to recognize the many thousands or tens of thousands of cases that have been accepted in the past.

Take, for example, the tendancy to form nouns from verbs. When the jargon or slang is new, this shocks the monkey out of the old folks and those who have diligently followed the rules, but there are already thousands of old nouns made from verbs.

You may resist a new verb such as "to impact" and insist on "to have an impact on", but it is a losing game. Resistence is futile.

Some of the worst novelties will die out--slang is constantly changing because the in group that creates it abandons it for some newer, shinier thing or in disgust when other people adopt it. The song "My generation" contains the protest of one such young fool. Argot because useless once the cops catch on, and slang becomes outmoded when the old folks (anybody over 25) start using it.

The same is true of loan words.

There are more non-Anglo Saxon words in English than there are Anglo Saxon words. The Anglo-Saxon vocabulary is about 10,000 words perhaps. French gave English sever times that many.

Those innovations that are not so fugly that they continue to shock after more than a generation in use often go native and become invisible even to the prickliest of prescriptions. The most a prescriptionist can hope to do is explain why we should say one thing rather than another. We do lose a lot of valuable words and grammar if nobody fights back.

Personally, I am annoyed by the anglicized or americanized pronounciation of several foreign words which I think could easily and should be pronounced as in the original French. Mauve (German, IIRC) and clique are two of my pet peeves. There's no need to change their pronuncation. They are easy to say. We have the vowels we need for the job.

Then there is this BS abou coyote or coyoté. Three pronunciations, each stupider than the last. Not to mention pseudo-hispanic variants.

Mind you, it can be annoying to listen to someone who uses too many foreign borrowings, and even worse in the use of pseudo-foreign words that "sound" English or what have you.

All languages have these. In English we say things the French do not, such as cul de sac for impasse and nom de plume where a French person might use nom de guerre. The French recognize that the suffix "-ing" is peculiarly English, so they have invented a number of pseudo-English words such as le shampooing and le haut-standing. There are many of these fake words in France, fewer perhaps in Quebec where faux amis and cognates used in a foreign sense are more common among both Montreal English and Quebec French. Bienvenu(e) for you're welcome is an example. In French, bienvenu(e) literally means you are well come. It does not mean thank you.

The Quebec Office de la langue nationale has done some good work (and some foolishness) in creating French terms so Quebec francophones don't have to speak half-in-English, half-in-French. Many of these terms have been accepted in common usage and it's just as well.

On the other hand, I am fascinated and delighted by the verbal calesthentics that the actors on L'Acadie Man, a cartoon set in New Brunswick display. They can switch between French and English and several hybrids thereof at well. It adds a whole new level, or levels, to language.

Perfect bilingualism (native speakers of two or more languages at once) means you have what engineers call several degrees of freedom not available to unilingual speakers or even those who have learned a foreign language or two.

I. Am. Amazed. I love it.

Prescriptivism would kill all these wonderful linguistic freedoms by forcing us to speak one language, codified forever.

Instead we get to play freely and invent the language or languages we need as we go along.

There is something to say for rules, but as JHC said, "Man is not made for the Sabbath, but Sabbath for Man."

The question, as Humpty Dumpty said wisely, is who is to be master. That is all. One should be master of one's language, not slave to it.

Freedom and natural language are not cut and dried museum pieces. They change. Change is of their essence. The world changes and the language changes with it, changing it, and being changed by it, in a perpetual interaction beyond the control of control freaks and even governments.
 
2013-06-27 12:43:18 PM
 
2013-06-27 12:43:32 PM
The sheer amount of loan words in some anime is indeed downright appalling.
 
2013-06-27 12:44:28 PM

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: Maul555: Da Fuq?  I am an American and I cant even understand these Americanized words...   I hope this guy wins the lawsuit!  This is like fighting against spanglish!

Japanese is hamstrung by their phonetic kanji, so they can't just take an English word as-is because they can't write it. So it gets changed to the extent they can write it phonetically.

So says my Japanese major of a son - native speakers can correct my ham-fisted explanation.


Not a speaker but you would be correct. They don't have adjacent consonants or phonemes that end in consonants other than N.
 
2013-06-27 12:45:12 PM

LewDux: Japan'2113


10/10
 
2013-06-27 12:46:03 PM
Why doesn't everyone just speak American so we can all understand each other?
 
2013-06-27 12:46:59 PM

gnosis301: The sheer amount of loan words in some anime is indeed downright appalling.


But hey, automatic English dub.
 
2013-06-27 12:47:05 PM
We should be suing them, since they're not making rent payments.
Or get them evicted from using our words...

// Now pardon me, I have to be at the sushi joint in 28 minutes...
 
2013-06-27 12:47:07 PM

brantgoose: He sounds French.

In the long run, this kind of thing must fail. Loan words only shock because they are new, like changes in meaning or grammar. The school-marms of prescriptive grammar attempt to hold back the flood but they ultimately fail because the masses ignore their prescriptions or only adopt them in special contexts, such as when talking to school marms.

And because it is the novelty that is the crime, the school marms and prescrptive grammarians fail to recognize the many thousands or tens of thousands of cases that have been accepted in the past.

Take, for example, the tendancy to form nouns from verbs. When the jargon or slang is new, this shocks the monkey out of the old folks and those who have diligently followed the rules, but there are already thousands of old nouns made from verbs.

You may resist a new verb such as "to impact" and insist on "to have an impact on", but it is a losing game. Resistence is futile.

Some of the worst novelties will die out--slang is constantly changing because the in group that creates it abandons it for some newer, shinier thing or in disgust when other people adopt it. The song "My generation" contains the protest of one such young fool. Argot because useless once the cops catch on, and slang becomes outmoded when the old folks (anybody over 25) start using it.

The same is true of loan words.

There are more non-Anglo Saxon words in English than there are Anglo Saxon words. The Anglo-Saxon vocabulary is about 10,000 words perhaps. French gave English sever times that many.

Those innovations that are not so fugly that they continue to shock after more than a generation in use often go native and become invisible even to the prickliest of prescriptions. The most a prescriptionist can hope to do is explain why we should say one thing rather than another. We do lose a lot of valuable words and grammar if nobody fights back.

Personally, I am annoyed by the anglicized or americanized pronounciation of several foreign ...



Research from just a bit back shows that for the most parts words don't last more than a few thousand years before they are replaced by a completely unrelated word.  Notably long lasting words: spit, bark, and worm.  Go figure.

/this is also why jurors should avoid 'going to the dictionary'.  Laws and speech are a product or their time and intent.
 
2013-06-27 12:47:10 PM
A disgruntled viewer is suing Japan's national broadcaster for "mental distress" caused by an excessive use of words borrowed from English.

Hoji Takahashi, 71, is seeking 1.4 million yen ($14,300; £9,300) in damages from NHK.


He may reject English loanwords, but he has clearly assimilated the greatest Americanism of them all - frivolous lawsuits.
 
2013-06-27 12:47:30 PM

MadMonk: [i406.photobucket.com image 400x400]


That's a wrap.
 
2013-06-27 12:47:39 PM

brantgoose: He sounds French.

In the long run, this kind of thing must fail. Loan words only shock because they are new, like changes in meaning or grammar. The school-marms of prescriptive grammar attempt to hold back the flood but they ultimately fail because the masses ignore their prescriptions or only adopt them in special contexts, such as when talking to school marms.

And because it is the novelty that is the crime, the school marms and prescrptive grammarians fail to recognize the many thousands or tens of thousands of cases that have been accepted in the past.

Take, for example, the tendancy to form nouns from verbs. When the jargon or slang is new, this shocks the monkey out of the old folks and those who have diligently followed the rules, but there are already thousands of old nouns made from verbs.

You may resist a new verb such as "to impact" and insist on "to have an impact on", but it is a losing game. Resistence is futile.

Some of the worst novelties will die out--slang is constantly changing because the in group that creates it abandons it for some newer, shinier thing or in disgust when other people adopt it. The song "My generation" contains the protest of one such young fool. Argot because useless once the cops catch on, and slang becomes outmoded when the old folks (anybody over 25) start using it.

The same is true of loan words.

There are more non-Anglo Saxon words in English than there are Anglo Saxon words. The Anglo-Saxon vocabulary is about 10,000 words perhaps. French gave English sever times that many.

Those innovations that are not so fugly that they continue to shock after more than a generation in use often go native and become invisible even to the prickliest of prescriptions. The most a prescriptionist can hope to do is explain why we should say one thing rather than another. We do lose a lot of valuable words and grammar if nobody fights back.

Personally, I am annoyed by the anglicized or americanized pronounciation of several foreign ...


who are you? and why are you here?
 
2013-06-27 12:50:49 PM
Americanization of the Japanese language? Hah. Meanwhile, American English just ran around the world and came back with a cart full of foreign words that will be swallowed up by it and become part of the lexicon.

Language isn't static. The English we speak today is very different from the English spoken five hundred years ago. It's even different from the English spoken fifty years ago. You can't keep language in a bubble. It doesn't work that way. Even if you sue the begesus out everyone who talks slightly different from you what you think is standard. Language is going to change.
 
2013-06-27 12:53:01 PM
Dude needs to have a bieru or 3 and chill out.
 
2013-06-27 12:57:16 PM
www.theblindcard.com

Nuttin' like it ..
 
2013-06-27 12:58:11 PM
Wikipedia:
In 1990, in the Usenet group rec.arts.sf-lovers, Nicoll wrote the following epigram on the English language:

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their pockets for new vocabulary

A followup to the original post acknowledged that the spelling of 'riffle' was a misspelling of 'rifle'.
:end wiki quote

And wikipedia is wrong on the the previous sentence. Riffle is a perfectly cormulent word meaning to shuffle through items, perhaps looking for something. It's also canoeing jargon for a minor river current in shallow water just makes some small waves.
 
2013-06-27 01:00:06 PM
www.theblindcard.com
This should probably not be read by anyone.

OK. I'll stop now.
 
2013-06-27 01:01:06 PM

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: Maul555: Da Fuq?  I am an American and I cant even understand these Americanized words...   I hope this guy wins the lawsuit!  This is like fighting against spanglish!

Japanese is hamstrung by their phonetic kanji, so they can't just take an English word as-is because they can't write it. So it gets changed to the extent they can write it phonetically.

So says my Japanese major of a son - native speakers can correct my ham-fisted explanation.


They use katakana to transliterate foreign loan words and loan phrases, even in some cases where the individual words which make up the phrase already have proper kanji translations, since the context of the combination of words might not translate as easily; alternatively, the words or phrases may be transliterated instead of translated to emphasize the fact that the words or phrases were created and/or are primarily used by CAPITALIST AMERICAN PIG-DOGS or other foreigners.

It's roughly the equivalent of us typing loan words in italicized text instead of plain text.

/not a native Japanese speaker
//do not play one on TV
 
2013-06-27 01:07:57 PM

Agnes Gonxha's Confidant: Interesting. I detest the use of loan words when there are perfectly good, explicit equivalents.

People all over the world replace their native words with english ones, to show separate themselves from the poor people.

It's all fun and games until someone has kids... and you should hear their kids speak.

Poor native language vocabulary and terrible english.

/joke's on them I guess


No sure I follow you.

The use

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: Maul555: Da Fuq?  I am an American and I cant even understand these Americanized words...   I hope this guy wins the lawsuit!  This is like fighting against spanglish!

Japanese is hamstrung by their phonetic kanji, so they can't just take an English word as-is because they can't write it. So it gets changed to the extent they can write it phonetically.

So says my Japanese major of a son - native speakers can correct my ham-fisted explanation.


That's pretty much it.

Japanese syllabary (actually not "kanji" but "kana") nearly all end with a vowel sound. The only (natural) consonant syllable ending in Japanese is the "n/m" sound. Although, it's not uncommon for ending vowel sounds to be dropped from words (e.g. "desu" is pronounced "des") . Also there's the whole L/R thing, which is a real issue. Often you can be reading the (katakana) version of an English word and just not recognize it bacause you are reading the symbols as Rs and they are actually representing an English L sound.

Kanji are the 2,000 or so symbols borrowed from Chinese that are integral to the Japanese writing system.
 
2013-06-27 01:09:04 PM
That was weird...
 
2013-06-27 01:09:32 PM
If there's anything more "American" than suing a TV station for "mental distress" I'd like to know what it is.

This may just be an elaborate Japanese joke, or perhaps suing for "mental distress" is part of Bushido or something, I dunno.
 
2013-06-27 01:15:53 PM
Ooooooooh...somebody's gonna kiss the donkey!
 
2013-06-27 01:19:22 PM
There's also the issue that Japanese doesn't just Japanize the pronunciation of English loanwords, they usually hack them to pieces, too.  Most commonly this is done by taking a two-word English phrase, Japanizing the spelling, then taking the first two syllables of the first word and mashing it together with the first two syllables of the second word, creating an entirely new piece of nonsense in both languages.

Pocket Monster = poketto monsutaa = pokemon (Pokemon)
Air Conditioner = eaa kondishonaa = eakon (Aircon)
Costume Play = kosuchuumu purei = kosupure (Cosplay)
Personal Computer = pasonaru konpyuuta = pasokon (Persocom)
 
2013-06-27 01:19:24 PM
imageshack.us
 
2013-06-27 01:20:17 PM

Agnes Gonxha's Confidant: Interesting. I detest the use of loan words when there are perfectly good, explicit equivalents...

So would it seem more appetizing to order squid in a restaurant, or

or calamari?

I like many foods that have tentacles, and calling something I'm about to eat squid doesn't offend my sensibilities, but I suspect many people in the US are more squeamish than this.
 
2013-06-27 01:20:45 PM

Doc Daneeka: A disgruntled viewer is suing Japan's national broadcaster for "mental distress" caused by an excessive use of words borrowed from English.

Hoji Takahashi, 71, is seeking 1.4 million yen ($14,300; £9,300) in damages from NHK.

He may reject English loanwords, but he has clearly assimilated the greatest Americanism of them all - frivolous lawsuits.


He was probably too busy yelling on his megaphone while parked outside a subway station in his black van.
/only slightly obscure but former/current expats in Japan will get it
 
2013-06-27 01:23:58 PM
They also use some words outright like "banana" or 'dynamic".
I married a Japanese girl, and when I went to visit her family, her mom saw the rather nice ring I got and said a bunch of stuff, but I picked out the word 'immitation'. I told her it wasn't an immitation and she was *shocked* I knew what she said. I was like "Yeah, that's an english word you used"
 
2013-06-27 01:36:58 PM

Fluid: Get used to it. Just about every major language these days has been anglicized for the most part.


Except for English, it would seem.
 
2013-06-27 01:38:16 PM

Fast Moon: they usually hack them to pieces, too. Most commonly this is done by

...

McDonald's = Macdo Naldo
 
2013-06-27 01:45:19 PM
Ágenspræc áwendednes gestungen.
 
2013-06-27 01:50:23 PM

lostcat: the whole L/R thing, which is a real issue. Often you can be reading the (katakana) version of an English word and just not recognize it bacause you are reading the symbols as Rs and they are actually representing an English L sound.


That's because you're confusing the Japanese らりるれろ consonant sound for the "R" sound.  It's neither "L" nor "R", but something different onto itself, even though it kind of resembles one or the other to English ears.
 
2013-06-27 01:52:22 PM

Precision Boobery: Fast Moon: they usually hack them to pieces, too. Most commonly this is done by...

McDonald's = Macdo Naldo


Take the 'elebeta' to the second floor to find the 'bankio'.
 
2013-06-27 02:13:47 PM
I like how English uses a bunch of random words from a bunch of random languages and nobody (even the "Freedom Fries" crowd) gives a fark or even really notices.
 
2013-06-27 02:19:39 PM

Doc Daneeka: A disgruntled viewer is suing Japan's national broadcaster for "mental distress" caused by an excessive use of words borrowed from English.

Hoji Takahashi, 71, is seeking 1.4 million yen ($14,300; £9,300) in damages from NHK.

He may reject English loanwords, but he has clearly assimilated the greatest Americanism of them all - frivolous lawsuits.


Yeah, and that's what what really surprises me.  In Japan, they laugh about our ridiculous lawsuits.  In fact, my Japanese coworker told me this story:

Her uncle was a smoker, and one time, when smoking one of his favorite brands, the cigarette tasted really nasty.  He put it out and opened it to find a dead bug inside.  So he called the cigarette company to ask them if smoking a bug was dangerous to his health.  They replied, "Well, sir, smoking is already bad for your heath."

Did he sue and get millions of dollars?  Nope.  He got a free carton and a very sincere apology letter.  That's it.

On another note, I'm assuming the reason for this lawsuit stems from the fact that Japanese youth prefer to use loan words even if there's a Japanese equivalent.  He probably can't understand his grandchildren, and he thinks TV is responsible.

I can understand this guy's frustration.  When you feel your language is threatened by outside influences, it can feel like your entire culture is being violated.  The ironic part is that Japan ranks as one of the lowest of all Asian countries in terms of spoken English proficiency.  They can't speak English, but they can borrow its words.

/esl teacher
//lived in Japan for about 6 years
 
2013-06-27 02:25:08 PM

Geotpf: I like how English uses a bunch of random words from a bunch of random languages and nobody (even the "Freedom Fries" crowd) gives a fark or even really notices.


I recall some idiots getting all bent out of shape last year or the year before when meteorologists used the word "haboob" to refer to dust storms in the American Southwest. One person even went so far as to claim that using an Arabic word would traumatize Iraq and Afghanistan vets.
 
2013-06-27 02:28:37 PM

Geotpf: I like how English uses a bunch of random words from a bunch of random languages and nobody (even the "Freedom Fries" crowd) gives a fark or even really notices.


I from Proto-Germanic*ekan
Like from Proto-Germanic*likjan
How from West Germanic*hwo-
English from Old English Englisc
Uses from  Old Latin oeti,via  Old Frenchuser
A from Old English an
Bunch (probably)  from Flemish boudje
Of from Proto-Germanic*af
Random from Frankish *rant, from Proto-Germanic*randa
Words from Proto-Germanic *wurdan

etc.

All languages evolve.  There is no such thing as a fixed, unchanging language, and attempts to stop linguistic evolution are futile.
 
2013-06-27 02:40:17 PM

FloydA: Geotpf: I like how English uses a bunch of random words from a bunch of random languages and nobody (even the "Freedom Fries" crowd) gives a fark or even really notices.

I from Proto-Germanic*ekan
Like from Proto-Germanic*likjan
How from West Germanic*hwo-
English from Old English Englisc
Uses from  Old Latin oeti,via  Old Frenchuser
A from Old English an
Bunch (probably)  from Flemish boudje
Of from Proto-Germanic*af
Random from Frankish *rant, from Proto-Germanic*randa
Words from Proto-Germanic *wurdan

etc.

All languages evolve.  There is no such thing as a fixed, unchanging language, and attempts to stop linguistic evolution are futile.


IKR?  totes cray-cray, bo.
 
2013-06-27 03:36:53 PM

brantgoose: He sounds French.

Personally, I am annoyed by the anglicized or americanized pronounciation of several foreign ...


Let's get this rodeo started.
 
2013-06-27 04:00:29 PM

BafflerMeal: FloydA: Geotpf: I like how English uses a bunch of random words from a bunch of random languages and nobody (even the "Freedom Fries" crowd) gives a fark or even really notices.

I from Proto-Germanic*ekan
Like from Proto-Germanic*likjan
How from West Germanic*hwo-
English from Old English Englisc
Uses from  Old Latin oeti,via  Old Frenchuser
A from Old English an
Bunch (probably)  from Flemish boudje
Of from Proto-Germanic*af
Random from Frankish *rant, from Proto-Germanic*randa
Words from Proto-Germanic *wurdan

etc.

All languages evolve.  There is no such thing as a fixed, unchanging language, and attempts to stop linguistic evolution are futile.

IKR?  totes cray-cray, bo.


Werd dawg.  Spect!
 
2013-06-27 04:01:31 PM
All languages evolve. There is no such thing as a fixed, unchanging language, and attempts to stop linguistic evolution are futile.

What about Latin?
 
2013-06-27 04:05:30 PM

HailRobonia: All languages evolve. There is no such thing as a fixed, unchanging language, and attempts to stop linguistic evolution are futile.

What about Latin?


Qu'est-ce que c'est?
¿Qué es eso?
O que é isso?
Ce este asta?
 
2013-06-27 04:07:03 PM
GRAMARU NAZIKE!
 
2013-06-27 04:10:54 PM

Agnes Gonxha's Confidant: I detest the use of loan words when there are perfectly good, explicit equivalents.


So you're filled with schadenfreude? Or is it ennui?
 
2013-06-27 04:24:39 PM

Nall-ohki: lostcat: the whole L/R thing, which is a real issue. Often you can be reading the (katakana) version of an English word and just not recognize it bacause you are reading the symbols as Rs and they are actually representing an English L sound.

That's because you're confusing the Japanese らりるれろ consonant sound for the "R" sound.  It's neither "L" nor "R", but something different onto itself, even though it kind of resembles one or the other to English ears.


Nope. See I'm specifically talking about Katakana renderings of English words. You're referring to (and showing) Hiragana.

If you are trying to identify an English loanword written in Katakana, you first have to figure out whether the kana represents the English R or L sound.
 
2013-06-27 04:28:59 PM

HailRobonia: All languages evolve. There is no such thing as a fixed, unchanging language, and attempts to stop linguistic evolution are futile.

What about Latin?


Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French, and Romanian (among several others) are descendants of Latin, so yes.
 
2013-06-27 04:29:39 PM

Nall-ohki: lostcat: the whole L/R thing, which is a real issue. Often you can be reading the (katakana) version of an English word and just not recognize it bacause you are reading the symbols as Rs and they are actually representing an English L sound.

That's because you're confusing the Japanese らりるれろ consonant sound for the "R" sound.  It's neither "L" nor "R", but something different onto itself, even though it kind of resembles one or the other to English ears.


I just realized that you are also in Berkeley. I kind of imagine I know who you are.
 
mjl
2013-06-27 04:39:03 PM

AirGee: Half of the English language is borrowed from French,  way more than the handful of words they list.



English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.
-- James Nicoll
 
2013-06-27 04:42:25 PM

FloydA: HailRobonia: All languages evolve. There is no such thing as a fixed, unchanging language, and attempts to stop linguistic evolution are futile.

What about Latin?

Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French, and Romanian (among several others) are descendants of Latin, so yes.


Portuguese is Latin like a chicken is a dinosaur.  But there is also Old Latin versus Classical Latin if you want examples that are both "true" latin.
 
2013-06-27 05:23:26 PM
furuki yu.
 
2013-06-27 05:35:36 PM

ciberido: FloydA: HailRobonia: All languages evolve. There is no such thing as a fixed, unchanging language, and attempts to stop linguistic evolution are futile.

What about Latin?

Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French, and Romanian (among several others) are descendants of Latin, so yes.

Portuguese is Latin like a chicken is a dinosaur.  But there is also Old Latin versus Classical Latin if you want examples that are both "true" latin.


A chicken is truly a dinosaur.  Aves is a crown group of the dinosauria.  If T. rex is a dinosaur, and Edmontosaurus is a dinosaur, then logically, anything that is more closely related to T. rex than Edmontosaurus is related to T. rex must also be a dinosaur.    T. rex are more closely related to chickens than they are to Edmontosaurus, so chickens are dinosaurs, Q.E.D.

Portuguese is Latin in a very similar way.

Consider Old Latin analogous to the basal theropod, and Church Latin analogous to Coelophysis.  Then Classical Latin would be analogous to the basal  Tetanuran, and the pair Ornithomymus/Tyranosaurus would be analogous to Italian/Sicilian, while Deinonychus/Aves would be analogous to Spanish/Portuguese, and French would be Acrocanthosaurus.

To say that Aves is not part of Dinosaura is to create a paraphyletic clade.  The precise same logic tells us that Portuguese is Latin, just a highly derived version of it.
 
2013-06-27 07:42:55 PM

FloydA: ciberido: FloydA: HailRobonia: All languages evolve. There is no such thing as a fixed, unchanging language, and attempts to stop linguistic evolution are futile.

What about Latin?

Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French, and Romanian (among several others) are descendants of Latin, so yes.

Portuguese is Latin like a chicken is a dinosaur.  But there is also Old Latin versus Classical Latin if you want examples that are both "true" latin.

A chicken is truly a dinosaur.

i2.kym-cdn.com

I was humorously (well, it was supposed to be humorous, anyway) referring to thread #7808499, in which we had a similar exchange.
 
2013-06-27 07:51:56 PM
I feel like a racist when pronouncing those words.
 
2013-06-27 09:54:12 PM
My wife thinks he just doesn't want to pay the NHK fee anymore.
 
2013-06-27 10:13:51 PM
lostcat: Nope. See I'm specifically talking about Katakana renderings of English words. You're referring to (and showing) Hiragana.
If you are trying to identify an English loanword written in Katakana, you first have to figure out whether the kana represents the English R or L sound.


Ah, in that context, yes - the Japanese are attempting to identify R/L and translate it to the native sound.  If you're trying to do a 1:2 mapping from the original 2:1 mapping, then it definitely is difficult. :)

I just realized that you are also in Berkeley. I kind of imagine I know who you are.

Ah!  I haven't updated my profile in ages.  I live in Tokyo now. :)
 
2013-06-27 10:16:33 PM
ciberido:
I was humorously (well, it was supposed to be humorous, anyway) referring to thread #7808499, in which we had a similar exchange.

This link explains everything I think about you.  If that's not enough, maybe this link will convince you to keep on doin' what you're doin.

i105.photobucket.com
Most 'Spect.

/Out.
 
2013-06-27 10:16:49 PM

super_grass: Really Japan? Complaining about foreign influence when your cartoons are ALL about white people?



So I've heard, anime was originally influenced heavily by Western animation.

Then you get Western animation influenced by anime.

Then you get South Park lampooning anime, and then FLCL does random bits of one episode South Park style, and it's about this point where I go cross-eyed.

/let's fighting love is my ringtone
/you don't want to know what the lyrics mean.  really.
 
2013-06-27 10:25:00 PM

gnosis301: The sheer amount of loan words in some anime is indeed downright appalling.


Not really related, but funny

/pereperepereperepere
 
2013-06-27 10:34:25 PM

HailRobonia: Geotpf: I like how English uses a bunch of random words from a bunch of random languages and nobody (even the "Freedom Fries" crowd) gives a fark or even really notices.

I recall some idiots getting all bent out of shape last year or the year before when meteorologists used the word "haboob" to refer to dust storms in the American Southwest. One person even went so far as to claim that using an Arabic word would traumatize Iraq and Afghanistan vets.


Did they pull their kids out of Algebra class?

/al-jabr.  No, really.
 
2013-06-27 11:07:31 PM

Mister Peejay: gnosis301: The sheer amount of loan words in some anime is indeed downright appalling.

Not really related, but funny

/pereperepereperepere


You know, the parent comment got me thinking of Indian movies.  They are largely Hindi but they have an awful lot of English in them (for obvious reasons.)  But enough English that most Hindi sentences contain at least one loan word and many of the sentences are entirely English.  It's all subtitled though, which is good.
 
2013-06-28 12:14:40 AM
i85.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-28 04:35:24 AM
Mmm I think the main problem here is that loan words are used when there are perfectly serviceable Japanese equivalents, and that loan words are meaningless in themselves.  Putting a loan word up on the screen or speaking it, you might as well walk up to someone and go "mlephptmnop" for all the meaning it has.  NHK is the Japanese version of BBC and should be broadcasting news in language that is clear to everyone.

The benefit of kanji is that even if you have never encountered a word or phrase in your life you will almost always recognise the characters, allowing you to gather the meaning.  If a word was spoken to me, in context, and I had never heard it before, and could not see the characters, I still could usually tell what characters it would probably be made of and guess the meaning.  Occasionally I would have to ask the character, and then I would understand.  No explanation of meaning needed.

Essentially because of kanji Japan has a native inbuilt version of what it would take English speakers classes in Latin, Greek, Old Germanic, Gaelic, Old English, and medieval French to be able to do.
 
2013-06-28 12:21:25 PM

if_i_really_have_to: Essentially because of kanji Japan has a native inbuilt version of what it would take English speakers classes in Latin, Greek, Old Germanic, Gaelic, Old English, and medieval French to be able to do.


"Native, built in" if you mean "stolen from Chinese in the 7th century."
 
2013-06-28 06:33:08 PM

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: HailRobonia: All languages evolve. There is no such thing as a fixed, unchanging language, and attempts to stop linguistic evolution are futile.

What about Latin?

Qu'est-ce que c'est?
¿Qué es eso?
O que é isso?
Ce este asta?


Evolved versions are called "Italian", "French", "Spanish", and other mutated and cross-breeds, like "Engrish" and "English"
 
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