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(Daily Mail)   Stuff the Soviets did in the 1970s is causing big trouble today. Thanks, guys. Thanks a LOT   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 107
    More: Sad, anti-American, Soviet Union, United States, KGB, clandestine operations, Muslims, Ceausescu, Soviet Premier  
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26571 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Jun 2013 at 9:38 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-26 05:15:54 PM
The list of what the US did in the 60s and 70s to thwart communism is just as long. Including training the very leaders of organizations we're fighting against today. It's all waves from a stone dropped in the 50s and we'll be paying the price for a long time.
 
2013-06-26 05:25:48 PM
This all stems from the Bing Bang.  Without it, we wouldn't have any of the problems we suffer through today.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-06-26 05:48:51 PM
I think it was the Catholics.  All those Crusades did it.
 
2013-06-26 05:50:19 PM

Relatively Obscure: This all stems from the Bing Bang.  Without it, we wouldn't have any of the problems we suffer through today.


www.newspringchiropractic.com
 
2013-06-26 05:56:44 PM
"Well, blokes, looks like we're off the hook, cheerio!"
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-06-26 06:08:22 PM

JohnAnnArbor: Relatively Obscure: This all stems from the Bing Bang.  Without it, we wouldn't have any of the problems we suffer through today.

[www.newspringchiropractic.com image 120x120]


*facepalm*

Now I have to lobby to have the name changed to match my typo.
 
2013-06-26 07:23:35 PM
While I have no doubt the Soviets spread their share of anti-American propaganda, i have a hard time believing that is the main cause of the Muslims hatred of the US.

Certainly our own actions have not always been helpful, but I still believe the biggest problem is local dictators who need a "Satan" to distract their people. Otherwise they might notice that they are living in a totalitarian dictatorship, one step above starvation, while their leaders live in gilded palaces.
 
2013-06-26 07:38:57 PM

mr_a: While I have no doubt the Soviets spread their share of anti-American propaganda, i have a hard time believing that is the main cause of the Muslims hatred of the US.

Certainly our own actions have not always been helpful, but I still believe the biggest problem is local dictators who need a "Satan" to distract their people. Otherwise they might notice that they are living in a totalitarian dictatorship, one step above starvation, while their leaders live in gilded palaces.


We're doubly appealing as a villain because of our relationship with Israel as well.  They get to play off of the deep rooted Muslim suspicions about the Jewish people and America all at once.
 
2013-06-26 07:59:30 PM
In their book, titled Disinformation, Pacepa spills the secrets he kept for decades as head of Romania's spy apparatus and secret police, the DIE, before he secured political asylum in the U.S. in 1978.


that is one farking cool acronym for a secret police force.
 
2013-06-26 08:47:53 PM

kbronsito: In their book, titled Disinformation, Pacepa spills the secrets he kept for decades as head of Romania's spy apparatus and secret police, the DIE, before he secured political asylum in the U.S. in 1978.


that is one farking cool acronym for a secret police force.


Better than RIPD, which just makes most of us in the Providence area wonder when the RI State Police changed their name.
 
2013-06-26 09:30:44 PM
i.imgur.com

R.I.P.  PICKUP ANDROPOV

 
2013-06-26 09:32:37 PM

kbronsito: In their book, titled Disinformation, Pacepa spills the secrets he kept for decades as head of Romania's spy apparatus and secret police, the DIE, before he secured political asylum in the U.S. in 1978.


that is one farking cool acronym for a secret police force.




i.imgur.com

R.I.P. ROMANIAN SECRET POLICE

 
2013-06-26 09:41:07 PM
suuuure mailonline. excellent propaganda piece, right when the USrael/Russian positions are hardening in Syria.
 
2013-06-26 09:45:10 PM
I blame free will.
 
2013-06-26 09:46:28 PM
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we farked up the endgame.
 
2013-06-26 09:46:28 PM

mr_a: the biggest problem is local dictators who need a "Satan" to distract their people. Otherwise they might notice that they are living in a totalitarian dictatorship, one step above starvation, while their leaders live in gilded palaces.


But enough about Washington DC
 
2013-06-26 09:47:50 PM
I never did trust Joe Paterno

i.dailymail.co.uk
 
2013-06-26 09:48:47 PM

mr_a: While I have no doubt the Soviets spread their share of anti-American propaganda, i have a hard time believing that is the main cause of the Muslims hatred of the US.


But these places were such stalwart allies of the US and Israel before all this happened...
 
2013-06-26 09:48:52 PM
Propaganda is so cute. Go on and read your bedtime story America!
 
2013-06-26 09:49:13 PM
I blame Hitler!
 
2013-06-26 09:49:37 PM
The stuff they spread at American universities is causing bigger problems.
 
2013-06-26 09:52:13 PM

xynix: The list of what the US did in the 60s and 70s to thwart communism is just as long.


Operation Mongoose, for one.
 
2013-06-26 09:54:19 PM
News to me. I know that they tried to steal the  Type-99 EM Radiation Cannon, those sneaky Reds.
 
2013-06-26 09:58:11 PM
I'm guessing the Soviets were as effective with this as they were for anything else they tried under Brezhnev. But hey! Maybe Israel's policies are wholly blameless. And Mossadegh? Our bad. Do overs?
 
2013-06-26 09:58:27 PM
The important thing is that we don't let the commies win. No matter how many lives or treasure get lost, the commies must not win. Because commies are godless heathens.
 
2013-06-26 10:06:31 PM
Meh, call me when people start caring what the Soviets did to the Kara sea, they used it as their private nuclear waste dump, tossing in unprocessed waste, whole nuke cores, and as a coup de grâce they scuttled The sub K-27 complete with her reactor compartment which they now admit the decaying vessel may be reaching a critical level leading to an "uncontrolled chain reaction".
 
2013-06-26 10:08:25 PM
This reeks of disinformation
 
2013-06-26 10:09:17 PM
Well we probably didn't help the situation out much either.  Propping up dictators like the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein and others, helping Israel out every time something came up in U.N,etc...
 
2013-06-26 10:09:20 PM
Yeah because we most certainly didn't support or sponsor military coups in Syria, Iraq, Iran etc.  And Israel certainly hadn't fought multiple wars with its neighbors before the 1970s.  And we certainly haven't been invading or bombing Muslim countries non-stop for the past 25 years.  No sir.
 
2013-06-26 10:12:19 PM
We have always been at war with Eurasia (Russia).

The Cold War never ended, Russia only continued it with proxy wars in the Mideast.  Syria is the end-game.  The Grand Chessboard is about to be played.
 
2013-06-26 10:16:08 PM

Pribar: Meh, call me when people start caring what the Soviets did to the Kara sea, they used it as their private nuclear waste dump, tossing in unprocessed waste, whole nuke cores, and as a coup de grâce they scuttled The sub K-27 complete with her reactor compartment which they now admit the decaying vessel may be reaching a critical level leading to an "uncontrolled chain reaction".


I don't think anyone wants to open the can of worms that is 'extremely hazardous crap countries have dumped into the ocean'. You start getting on them about that and they have a long list of things to shoot back with.
 
2013-06-26 10:16:56 PM

badhatharry: The stuff they spread at American universities is causing bigger problems.


But enough about Liberty and Bob Jones.
 
2013-06-26 10:17:28 PM
scienceblogs.com
 
2013-06-26 10:18:22 PM

Uncle_Sam's_Titties: This reeks of disinformation


Maybe so. I pretty sure that Muslims hated Jews well before the 1970's.
 
2013-06-26 10:18:24 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: "Well, blokes, looks like we're off the hook, cheerio!"


Thanks for not listing a reference, asshole. Who are these people, asshole?
 
2013-06-26 10:21:00 PM
Reading this right now:

www.thefirearmblog.com

So you could easily change the headline to "the 40s".
 
2013-06-26 10:24:07 PM

mr_a: While I have no doubt the Soviets spread their share of anti-American propaganda, i have a hard time believing that is the main cause of the Muslims hatred of the US.

Certainly our own actions have not always been helpful, but I still believe the biggest problem is local dictators who need a "Satan" to distract their people. Otherwise they might notice that they are living in a totalitarian dictatorship, one step above starvation, while their leaders live in gilded palaces.

i235.photobucket.com

 
2013-06-26 10:25:40 PM
Follow the money.

/just wanted to say that
 
2013-06-26 10:26:03 PM

badhatharry: The stuff they spread at American universities is causing bigger problems.


 This.

/both are problematic though
//not saying the US didn't have their own stuff they were "spreading" either.
///the whole thing is a clusterfark of epic proportions
 
2013-06-26 10:27:34 PM
Call me crazy (because it's happened before) but I'd think things like Operation Ajax where Eisenhower (yeah, the guy who warned about the Military Industrial Complex) had the CIA overthrow the democratically elected government of Iran on the request of BP (then known at the Anglo-Persian Oil Company) has more to do with the general attitude of the US in the region than propaganda from the Soviets. While there is no way to know for sure if theocracy would have naturally risen in Iran had the US and UK not installed a brutal dictator, there's no good reason to think it would have. The Shah's treatment of the people of Iran was shocking and there was no way some sort of revolution wasn't going to happen.  Thanks BP!
 
2013-06-26 10:27:47 PM

Tyranicle: Ow! That was my feelings!: "Well, blokes, looks like we're off the hook, cheerio!"

Thanks for not listing a reference, asshole. Who are these people, asshole?


wtf? You're calling me an asshole because you didn't get the reference? How many times a day on Fark does that happen to you? Every damn time? Not my fault your an ignorant douchebag.
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-06-26 10:30:31 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: Tyranicle: Ow! That was my feelings!: "Well, blokes, looks like we're off the hook, cheerio!"

Thanks for not listing a reference, asshole. Who are these people, asshole?

wtf? You're calling me an asshole because you didn't get the reference? How many times a day on Fark does that happen to you? Every damn time? Not my fault your an ignorant douchebag.
[25.media.tumblr.com image 500x225]


Apparently it was...obscure?
 
2013-06-26 10:33:33 PM

badhatharry: Uncle_Sam's_Titties: This reeks of disinformation

Maybe so. I pretty sure that Muslims hated Jews well before the 1970's.


O.K.
You say this why?
 
2013-06-26 10:34:22 PM

J. Frank Parnell: Pribar: Meh, call me when people start caring what the Soviets did to the Kara sea, they used it as their private nuclear waste dump, tossing in unprocessed waste, whole nuke cores, and as a coup de grâce they scuttled The sub K-27 complete with her reactor compartment which they now admit the decaying vessel may be reaching a critical level leading to an "uncontrolled chain reaction".

I don't think anyone wants to open the can of worms that is 'extremely hazardous crap countries have dumped into the ocean'. You start getting on them about that and they have a long list of things to shoot back with.


What you linked is small potatoes next to the Kara sea, go read up on what they did, it makes Chernobyl look like Disneyland, we are talking whole cores dumped, liquid waste poured directly into the sea, the sub K-27 was scuttled in 33 meters of water with spent fuel stacked into her cores, the chance that the cores will reachieve criticality are extremely high, I would rather be living right next to the mustard gas dump in your linked article than be within a 100 miles of K-27 when her core goes critical again
 
2013-06-26 10:35:01 PM
His intelligence chief defected to the U.S. in 1978, and is spilling his Cold War-era secrets in a new book. He was executed, following a coup, on Christmas Day 1989

Romanian executed in 1989 and is writing a book today?  Vampire-like typing detected.
 
2013-06-26 10:35:42 PM

Somacandra: R.I.P.  PICKUP ANDROPOV


Those guys look exactly as I had pictured them in my mind.
 
2013-06-26 10:36:49 PM

cuzsis: Ow! That was my feelings!: Tyranicle: Ow! That was my feelings!: "Well, blokes, looks like we're off the hook, cheerio!"

Thanks for not listing a reference, asshole. Who are these people, asshole?

wtf? You're calling me an asshole because you didn't get the reference? How many times a day on Fark does that happen to you? Every damn time? Not my fault your an ignorant douchebag.
[25.media.tumblr.com image 500x225]

Apparently it was...obscure?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Haig,_1st_Earl_Haig

 
2013-06-26 10:39:28 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: "Well, blokes, looks like we're off the hook, cheerio!"
[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x262]


Yeah, if you want to track self-righteous evil over the last few centuries, the British Empire is a good starting point.  Attacking China to make them buy British opium. Jeez.
 
2013-06-26 10:41:38 PM

ArtosRC: News to me. I know that they tried to steal the  Type-99 EM Radiation Cannon, those sneaky Reds.


Yeah, but only thanks to the the Argos team.
 
2013-06-26 10:43:09 PM

Relatively Obscure: This all stems from the Bing Bang.  Without it, we wouldn't have any of the problems we suffer through today.


You left off the ding dang walla part. That was the most important part.
 
2013-06-26 10:45:59 PM
You know who else targeted the Middle East with anti-Semitic and anti-democratic propaganda?
 
2013-06-26 10:46:23 PM

Goetz: cuzsis: Ow! That was my feelings!: Tyranicle: Ow! That was my feelings!: "Well, blokes, looks like we're off the hook, cheerio!"

Thanks for not listing a reference, asshole. Who are these people, asshole?

wtf? You're calling me an asshole because you didn't get the reference? How many times a day on Fark does that happen to you? Every damn time? Not my fault your an ignorant douchebag.
[25.media.tumblr.com image 500x225]

Apparently it was...obscure?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Haig,_1st_Earl_Haig


Cool. Thanks!

 Actually I was just out to make a joke, but mighty nice of you to provide context. :)
 
2013-06-26 10:46:26 PM
Russia.  The culture that gave the world drinking beet soup out of leaking straw boots.

All of this anti-muslim BS began in the 1973 oil embargo which America never recovered from.
 
2013-06-26 10:48:39 PM
Nothing new here. Proxy wars are about as old as humanity itself. Some groups are just more easily manipulated
 
2013-06-26 10:52:13 PM
Thanks Nixon.
 
2013-06-26 10:53:13 PM
I suppose in retrospect that having the CIA training the Shah of Iran's torturers was probably a bad thing, but hey you live, you learn.
 
2013-06-26 10:54:58 PM
In the lead-up to the British and US Iranian coup d'etat in 1953 which overthrew the young Iranian democracy and installed the western friendly Shah to act as monarch who was sure to protect western oil interests, the CIA guided and participated in terrorist acts that were made to look like they were committed by communists in to help support the coup. The 25 year reign of the Shah was overthrown by young Islamic fundamentalists, perhaps with the aid of Communist propaganda, but I doubt they needed much coaxing since those young students grew up knowing the CIA had destroyed their democracy.

From wiki:

In early August, the C.I.A. stepped up the pressure. Iranian operatives pretending to be Communists threatened Muslim leaders withsavage punishment if they opposed Mossadegh, seeking to stir anti-Communist sentiment in the religious community. In addition, the secret history says, the house of at least one prominent Muslim was bombed by C.I.A. agents posing as Communists. It does not say whether anyone was hurt in this attack. The agency was also intensifying its propaganda campaign. A leading newspaper owner was granted a personal loan of about $45,000,in the belief that this would make his organ amenable to our purposes. But the shah remained intransigent. In an 1 August meeting with General, he refused to sign the C.I.A.-written decrees firing Mr. Mossadegh and appointing General Zahedi. He said he doubted that the army would support him in a showdown.
 
2013-06-26 10:58:39 PM
For years the Russians did try very hard to get a toe hold in the Muslim countries and spread anti-western stuff.  Ironically, they were kept out of many of the Arab nations because of the whole atheism deal; e.g. there was no Soviet presence in Saudi Arabia.  No embassy, consulate - nothing.  It was nearly impossible to get permission to enter the country with a Soviet/Eastern bloc stamp in your passport etc.  Ditto if you had an Israeli or apartheid-era South African stamp.

But the Soviets did target the more "liberal" Arab countries and large parts of Africa [Muslim or otherwise] in a similar fashion to the way China is doing now.  That's why many of the rebels & regimes of one type or another out there had a Marxist flavor and a lot of Soviet weaponry.
 
2013-06-26 11:01:16 PM

badhatharry: The stuff they spread at American universities is causing bigger problems.


You mean freedom of thought and expression?  Democracy?  Yeah that shiat is dangerous.  Freedom is slavery.  Ignorance is strength.
 
2013-06-26 11:01:30 PM
Must be the easy job on the list, the shiat that US and Israel doing and has done, because of the NY JEW lobby
is amazing,  and looks to only get worse

Next ware will be about water
 
2013-06-26 11:08:51 PM

Ow! That was my feelings!: "Well, blokes, looks like we're off the hook, cheerio!"
[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x262]


No. No you're not.
 
2013-06-26 11:13:13 PM
And what is the secret message that the article is trying to send by using single quote to quote people and double quotes inside those, huh?
 
2013-06-26 11:15:16 PM
I'd rather be picked up by the KGB, hell, by the damned Stasi than i would by SAVAK, supported and trained with american tax dollars. well, not my dollars 'cause I was a kid.

see 1950s guatemala for further fun with cia skullduggery. or ask salvador allende.
 
TWX
2013-06-26 11:21:28 PM

vpb: I think it was the Catholics.  All those Crusades did it.


Well, simply from a historical point of view, the Crusades held territory East of the Mediterranean for 192 years. Modern Israel has existed for 65 years, or basically 1/3 of the time that the Kingdom of Israel existed during the European Dark Ages.

Assuming the article is true, if the Soviets wanted to force the West to spend its resources without doing more than attempting to maintain the status quo then they were really effective, especially since it's not a terribly large leap to go from Western Crusades to supposing a Western-backed modern crusade, regardless of the veracity of the belief.

Sometimes I wonder if the Allies had given over a portion of Germany as a Jewish homeland, as opposed to what became Israel, if things would have been different. Had a Jewish state been set up from a portion of the country that did them the most harm in modern times similar to how Russia received the Kaliningrad Oblast during the Potsdam Agreement, I suspect that the West wouldn't have had to spend so many resources. Obviously we can never know, but it's an interesting thought experiment.
 
2013-06-26 11:30:19 PM
Had a Jewish state been set up from a portion of the country that did them the most harm in modern times similar to how Russia received the Kaliningrad Oblast during the Potsdam Agreement, I suspect that the West wouldn't have had to spend so many resources. Obviously we can never know, but it's an interesting thought experiment.


How about if somebody just lost that jew card, and have them be part of world like others, allowing inviduals or groups of them to isolate them self from others looks to be the worst solution available,

In case you know any group has radicals Hindus, Muslims Jews ect.   just leave them alone for some time, it human nature to rally in groups,

" Some are more equal than others "
 
2013-06-26 11:33:06 PM

basemetal: I blame Hitler!


I blame the Romans.
 
2013-06-26 11:34:06 PM

badhatharry: Uncle_Sam's_Titties: This reeks of disinformation

Maybe so. I pretty sure that Muslims hated Jews well before the 1970's.


I wouldn't necessarily use "Muslims" and "Arabs" interchangeably in this case.  Just to recount a lesser known part of history and to provide an idea of how the key players in the region "operated". The British promised the same land to both the Jews and to the Arabs. This was done by two documents:

To the Arabs, the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence (July 14, 1915) - a treaty in which the British promised to recognize Arab independence in "Arab" areas IF the Arabs fought against the Ottoman Empire (German ally in the war after November 1914). The disagreement here is whether or not Palestine was included in this exchange of letters, and the Brits insisted it was purposefully omitted.

To the Jews, the Balfour Declaration (1917) was in essence the first formal recognition of the Jewish right to re-establish Palestine as the Jewish home, even though the document stated clearly that the rights of non-Jewish people there would be "protected".

But here's the kicker: The Sykes-Picot Agreement (1916) was a secret agreement between the British and the French (and Russia to a small extent) to divide Arab territories between themselves, despite having promised the Arabs the land so long as they fought the Ottomans. The Sykes-Picot Agreement "effectively handed over control of Syria, Lebanon and Turkish Cilicia to the French and Jordan and areas around the Persian Gulf and Baghdad to the British." Notice, this agreement was made one year after the Mc-Mahon-Hussein Correspondence and one year before the Balfour Declaration.

It was the Bolsheviks that uncovered this secret agreement following the Bolshoi Revolution and made it public. As Wikipedia states "the British were embarrassed, the Arabs dismayed and the Turks delighted."

This is just a small example of what may lead an entire people to overreact once they've been farked with as often as they have.
 
2013-06-26 11:36:32 PM

cuzsis: Ow! That was my feelings!: Tyranicle: Ow! That was my feelings!: "Well, blokes, looks like we're off the hook, cheerio!"

Thanks for not listing a reference, asshole. Who are these people, asshole?

wtf? You're calling me an asshole because you didn't get the reference? How many times a day on Fark does that happen to you? Every damn time? Not my fault your an ignorant douchebag.
[25.media.tumblr.com image 500x225]

Apparently it was...obscure?


I bet Tyranicle would shiat his pants if he ever saw that Leslie Nielsen movie about Macho Grande, TX.
 
2013-06-26 11:40:53 PM
So he says this all occurred in the 70's? Years after the 6 Day War?

graphics8.nytimes.com
 
2013-06-26 11:44:15 PM

rattchett: badhatharry: The stuff they spread at American universities is causing bigger problems.

You mean freedom of thought and expression?  Democracy?  Yeah that shiat is dangerous.  Freedom is slavery.  Ignorance is strength.


Student debt is my guess.
 
2013-06-26 11:44:25 PM

Omahawg: see 1950s guatemala for further fun with cia skullduggery. or ask salvador allende.


The guy who made the lobster phone? I knew it wasn't the NSA who was messing with our communications.
 
2013-06-26 11:50:50 PM
And if we are going to involve the spread of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, there is someone else who is due for blame..

cs9845.vk.me

Published and distributed the first mass printing of the Protocols.
 
2013-06-27 12:13:42 AM

Relatively Obscure: This all stems from the Bing Bang.  Without it, we wouldn't have any of the problems we suffer through today.


this is what i'm going to name my bing-based porn search portal.
 
2013-06-27 12:48:07 AM

Uncle_Sam's_Titties: This reeks of disinformation


Wow. You must be six years old.
 
2013-06-27 01:11:11 AM

wantingout: suuuure mailonline. excellent propaganda piece, right when the USrael/Russian positions are hardening in Syria.



They're not getting hardened.

They're getting snowden.
 
2013-06-27 01:24:15 AM
There's no way any of today's millenials will believe this. Not just because it's much cooler to blame the U.S., but mostly because most people under the age of 30 don't know what a Soviet Union is.
 
2013-06-27 01:33:47 AM
You can go even farther back than World War I if you're so inclined. The British and Russians had been poking around in Ottoman affairs throughout the 19th century (this led to the Tanzimat Reforms, which were initially supported by the British so the Ottomans would serve as an effective counterweight to the Russians, and also the Crimean War), which left a lot of ill will throughout Muslim populations in the region. It didn't help that the Russians saw themselves as defenders of the Orthodox faith, regardless of which country the Orthodox happened to live in; this led the French to adopt similar attitudes regarding Catholics in the "Holy Lands" (now Israel), which basically led to French and Russian agents having proxy battles on Ottoman soil.

Imagine, say, Muslims and Hindus having turf battles in the middle of Boston for a couple of decades - you'd have a pretty dim view of Asians and brownish people in generally by the time they were through.

Meanwhile, the British got involved to protect their commercial interests in the region, which were initially served by a stronger Ottoman state, at least until the Crimean War and the Franco-Prussian War took care of the Russians and the French, respectively. Then it suddenly served the British commercial interests to dismember the Ottoman Empire as fast as humanly possible.

The real weird part, though, was what the United States was up to at this time. Since the British were our chief economic rivals at the time and relations were a bit frosty, we actually sent military advisers to Russia during the Crimean War so we could better observe our possible enemies-to-be in combat. The relationships between the Russian and American ruling classes developed during that period eventually led to the Alaska Purchase.

Anyway, the moral of the story is that life and geopolitics is bloody complicated, and if you look far enough back, you'll see some pretty strange stuff that supports somebody's half-baked assumptions about how the world works and why we should hate some group or another.

Back to the original story, it's no surprise the KGB and the Nazis pumped racist anti-Jew, anti-American (or anti-British, in the case of the Nazis) propaganda into the Middle East -  that's what the people in the Middle East wanted to hear in the first place. It wouldn't have picked up any traction if the people weren't halfway there already for some reason or another. Israel was basically the product of yet another European action forced upon the existing population - honestly, the country could be full of the most devout Muslim Albanians you could find and theArabs and Palestinians would  still be pissed about it. That Israel happened to be populated by a bunch of Jews was just icing on the cake. Meanwhile, the United States helped support this little European colony just tossed us in the same "people we're tired of getting pushed around by" category as the British and French.

If you really want to understand the Middle East, think of your average put-upon geek that's been bullied and kicked around for years. Some of them turn out okay, but a large portion of them turn out bitter and misanthropic. What happens if one of the bitter and misanthropic ones suddenly gets a bunch of money? They start doing really stupid things to prove something to the people that used to push them around, right? Now imagine if an entire culture was tossed into the garbage can during recess and hassled over lunch money every day for 150-200 years. Even if we stop bullying them, they're not going to be magically okay with us, "friend" us on Facebook, and reminisce about the good ol' days at international high school reunions - they're going to get even. Then they're going to raise their  kids to get even. And that's a problem because, well, we're already having terrorist versions of Columbine and Sandy Hook from these guys - if most of them are no longer intimidated by us, then what?

Our goal at this point is to find some way to get them to hate us a little less - less enough, hopefully, where instead of getting even, they'll focus on ignoring us and moving on with their lives like many bullied teens. But we have a lot of work to do before we can get to that point.

/What was I talking about originally?
//Wow, this went on a lot longer than I originally anticipated...
 
2013-06-27 02:05:56 AM

limboslam: There's no way any of today's millenials will believe this. Not just because it's much cooler to blame the U.S., but mostly because most people under the age of 30 don't know what a Soviet Union is.


OK, minor threadjack....

My BiL was watching "Stripes" the other day when I dropped by the house...my oldest nephew (17) came downstairs and watched part of the end, where the Winnebago from hell is bursting through the Soviet checkpoint in backwoods Czechoslovakia....and I realized that ENTIRE movie would make no sense at all to him, almost from beginning to end. Hell, Czechoslovakia isn't a country anymore, much less having to sneak across the border...plus, what's a "motor home"?
 
2013-06-27 03:04:09 AM

Livingroom: Relatively Obscure: This all stems from the Bing Bang.  Without it, we wouldn't have any of the problems we suffer through today.

this is what i'm going to name my bing-based porn search portal.


Snert*

=^D
/fun with typos
 
2013-06-27 03:57:28 AM
The latest wave of anti-American sentiment in the Arab world started with the first Gulf War and our subsequent building of military bases in Saudi Arabia. The hardcore Islamists wanted the infidel troops out of their holy land.
 
2013-06-27 04:19:40 AM
The US Government must be pitching these old stories about the Soviets to news organizations, since they're upset with Russia about Snowden.
 
2013-06-27 04:36:30 AM

Mad_Radhu: badhatharry: The stuff they spread at American universities is causing bigger problems.

But enough about Liberty and Bob Jones.


The communists were involved in Liberty and Bob Jones universities? Wow! Who knew?
 
2013-06-27 04:37:47 AM

rattchett: badhatharry: The stuff they spread at American universities is causing bigger problems.

You mean freedom of thought and expression?  Democracy?  Yeah that shiat is dangerous.  Freedom is slavery.  Ignorance is strength.


Communism = freedom of thought and expression?!?

LOL. Whatever, comrade.
 
2013-06-27 05:53:26 AM

Ow! That was my feelings!: "Well, blokes, looks like we're off the hook, cheerio!"
[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x262]


Debeo Summa Credo: rattchett: badhatharry: The stuff they spread at American universities is causing bigger problems.

You mean freedom of thought and expression?  Democracy?  Yeah that shiat is dangerous.  Freedom is slavery.  Ignorance is strength.

Communism = freedom of thought and expression?!?

LOL. Whatever, comrade.




Major powers have been using Arab and or Islamists as pawns for centuries. Tsarist Russia against Britain, Britain against Ottoman's/Turks, Nazis against Britain, USSR against US etc and the Arabs/Islamists have been more or less willing pawns for centuries.
 
2013-06-27 05:57:35 AM

hasty ambush: Ow! That was my feelings!: "Well, blokes, looks like we're off the hook, cheerio!"
[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x262]

Debeo Summa Credo: rattchett: badhatharry: The stuff they spread at American universities is causing bigger problems.

You mean freedom of thought and expression?  Democracy?  Yeah that shiat is dangerous.  Freedom is slavery.  Ignorance is strength.

Communism = freedom of thought and expression?!?

LOL. Whatever, comrade.

Major powers have been using Arab and or Islamists as pawns for centuries. Tsarist Russia against Britain, Britain against Ottoman's/Turks, Nazis against Britain, USSR against US etc and the Arabs/Islamists have been more or less willing pawns for centuries.


You forgot People's Republic of China against Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
 
2013-06-27 06:01:18 AM

limboslam: There's no way any of today's millenials will believe this. Not just because it's much cooler to blame the U.S., but mostly because most people under the age of 30 don't know what a Soviet Union is.


Say what you want, but In Soviet Union government didn't care what people talk
/or think
 
2013-06-27 06:12:55 AM

HotLonelyTeenageGirl: Propaganda is so cute. Go on and read your bedtime story America!


Uncle_Sam's_Titties: This reeks of disinformation


www.maniacworld.com
 
2013-06-27 06:15:10 AM

Livingroom: Relatively

Livingroom: Relatively Obscure: This all stems from the Bing Bang.  Without it, we wouldn't have any of the problems we suffer through today.

this is what i'm going to name my bing-based porn search portal.


Then my efforts were not for nothing.
 
2013-06-27 06:20:31 AM

LewDux: hasty ambush: Ow! That was my feelings!: "Well, blokes, looks like we're off the hook, cheerio!"
[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x262]

Debeo Summa Credo: rattchett: badhatharry: The stuff they spread at American universities is causing bigger problems.

You mean freedom of thought and expression?  Democracy?  Yeah that shiat is dangerous.  Freedom is slavery.  Ignorance is strength.

Communism = freedom of thought and expression?!?

LOL. Whatever, comrade.

Major powers have been using Arab and or Islamists as pawns for centuries. Tsarist Russia against Britain, Britain against Ottoman's/Turks, Nazis against Britain, USSR against US etc and the Arabs/Islamists have been more or less willing pawns for centuries.

You forgot People's Republic of China against Union of Soviet Socialist Republics


Which reminds me of

At the 1980 Olympics, Brezhnev begins his speech.
"O!" - applause. "O!" - more applause. "O!" - yet more applause. "O!" - an ovation. "O!!!" - the whole audience stands up and applauds.
An aide comes running to the podium and whispers, "Leonid Ilyich, that's the Olympic rings, you don't need to read it!/"was David Star, will be Leonid Star"
 
2013-06-27 06:51:13 AM

Pribar: they scuttled The sub K-27 complete with her reactor compartment which they now admit the decaying vessel may be reaching a critical level leading to an "uncontrolled chain reaction".


Googling suggests that monitoring shows nothing to worry about. The "uncontrolled chain reaction" stuff comes from a single small charity which may be (a) right or (b) a bunch of publicity seekers.
 
2013-06-27 06:57:45 AM

Oatworm: The British and Russians had been poking around in Ottoman affairs throughout the 19th century


I was ready to go off for ignoring that the British and Russians had just as uch a right to meddle as the ottoman empire, but

Oatworm: If you really want to understand the Middle East, think of your average put-upon geek that's been bullied and kicked around for years


You seem to be saying the same thing here.

The thing is you can say that about every group under the sun at some point.  And for all the "kicking around" they have gotten int he past 200+ years the last 50 have been for the most part beneficial because of outside influence (infant mortality, literacy, etc).  In short I don't think the bully analogy applies.
 
2013-06-27 07:18:19 AM

J. Frank Parnell: Pribar: Meh, call me when people start caring what the Soviets did to the Kara sea, they used it as their private nuclear waste dump, tossing in unprocessed waste, whole nuke cores, and as a coup de grâce they scuttled The sub K-27 complete with her reactor compartment which they now admit the decaying vessel may be reaching a critical level leading to an "uncontrolled chain reaction".

I don't think anyone wants to open the can of worms that is 'extremely hazardous crap countries have dumped into the ocean'. You start getting on them about that and they have a long list of things to shoot back with.


Fine.

How about this:  The reason why whale populations dived during the 20th Century is largely because the Soviets were massively cheating, taking many more whales than they were allowed by international treaty, illegally taking protected species and lying about it, and also altering the data on whales they did take so that it looked like they weren't taking undersized animals, which they commonly did.

It wasn't Japan, it wasn't Norway, it was the Soviet Union.
 
2013-06-27 08:44:58 AM
Ceausescu died twice!  1989 AND 1990.  Who knew?
 
2013-06-27 08:56:27 AM

SithLord: We have always been at war with Eurasia (Russia).

The Cold War never ended, Russia only continued it with proxy wars in the Mideast.  Syria is the end-game.  The Grand Chessboard is about to be played.


ooh, chills!
 
2013-06-27 09:08:52 AM

Befuddled: The latest wave of anti-American sentiment in the Arab world started with the first Gulf War and our subsequent building of military bases in Saudi Arabia. The hardcore Islamists wanted the infidel troops out of their holy land.


This. When I was in Desert Storm, some Saudi newspaper published a big story about it on the front page with headline that asked "Are foreign troops defiling our country?" It was illustrated with a photo of an American soldier using a crude latrine in some desert base camp. Very tacky, but certainly made it obvious that the answer should be "yes."
 
2013-06-27 09:14:50 AM

TWX: vpb: I think it was the Catholics.  All those Crusades did it.

Well, simply from a historical point of view, the Crusades held territory East of the Mediterranean for 192 years. Modern Israel has existed for 65 years, or basically 1/3 of the time that the Kingdom of Israel existed during the European Dark Ages.

Assuming the article is true, if the Soviets wanted to force the West to spend its resources without doing more than attempting to maintain the status quo then they were really effective, especially since it's not a terribly large leap to go from Western Crusades to supposing a Western-backed modern crusade, regardless of the veracity of the belief.

Sometimes I wonder if the Allies had given over a portion of Germany as a Jewish homeland, as opposed to what became Israel, if things would have been different. Had a Jewish state been set up from a portion of the country that did them the most harm in modern times similar to how Russia received the Kaliningrad Oblast during the Potsdam Agreement, I suspect that the West wouldn't have had to spend so many resources. Obviously we can never know, but it's an interesting thought experiment.


Yeah.
An interesting thought experiment... here's another one for you... since Lincoln himself knew that the African Americans would never be accepted as US citizens or equals, he was in favor of mass deportation back to Africa.  Liberia is in fact a country setup by free US slaves looking to go back to Africa.

Now, since I am assuming you are neither Jewish or Black... please try out your thought experiment in regards to forcing ALL of the black people who were already in America OUT to a place they did not want to go to.

Go ahead... see if it sounds at all bigoted or racist.

/Jews have been living in Israel of thousands of years
//That's where Jews wanted a homelands, that's where they DIED defending / creating a homeland.
///Unless you are practicing Jewish, I'd suggest you avoid your disturbing thought experiments.  Unless you're one of those whites (Paula Deen) who uses the N-word without a wince.
 
2013-06-27 09:19:54 AM
Yeah, it's not like we deposed the democratically elected leader of Iran to install our own puppet monarch in the 50s....
 
2013-06-27 09:23:50 AM

lumiere: To the Jews, the Balfour Declaration (1917) was in essence the first formal recognition of the Jewish right to re-establish Palestine as the Jewish home, even though the document stated clearly that the rights of non-Jewish people there would be "protected".


If you're a foreign Muslim you can enter Jerusalem, same for a Christian, same for anyone who wishes to visit the holy sites.

Please tell me what's Saudi Arabia's policy on allowing Israeli Muslims to visit Mecca and other holy sites in that country?

/Hint:  The country does not recognize Israel or its people as people... hence anyone with an Israeli passport is not allowed to visit those holy sites or enter the country.  Their religious rights are NOT protected.

//As your own historical references show.  The land where Israel sits was a site of imperialist infighting.  Now that the Jews have their own homeland - why not leave them alone?

///Israel is NOT an empire.  They have a tiny slit of land and the cries over settler expansion can be measured in ACRES PER YEAR... that's hardly an invasion... especially with borders set at Jordan -it's obvious to any rational observer that they are merely trying to exist.
 
2013-06-27 09:29:29 AM
NostroZ:
and the cries over settler expansion can be measured in ACRES PER YEAR...

it's not even that, considering that there haven't been any new settlements constructed since 1993 - everything we hear about (bar the occasional illegal outpost, which are usually quickly cleared by the IDF), is construction in existing settlements
 
2013-06-27 09:31:10 AM
As if islam needed any help in hating the US and Jews
 
2013-06-27 09:32:59 AM

NostroZ: TWX: vpb: I think it was the Catholics.  All those Crusades did it.

Well, simply from a historical point of view, the Crusades held territory East of the Mediterranean for 192 years. Modern Israel has existed for 65 years, or basically 1/3 of the time that the Kingdom of Israel existed during the European Dark Ages.

Assuming the article is true, if the Soviets wanted to force the West to spend its resources without doing more than attempting to maintain the status quo then they were really effective, especially since it's not a terribly large leap to go from Western Crusades to supposing a Western-backed modern crusade, regardless of the veracity of the belief.

Sometimes I wonder if the Allies had given over a portion of Germany as a Jewish homeland, as opposed to what became Israel, if things would have been different. Had a Jewish state been set up from a portion of the country that did them the most harm in modern times similar to how Russia received the Kaliningrad Oblast during the Potsdam Agreement, I suspect that the West wouldn't have had to spend so many resources. Obviously we can never know, but it's an interesting thought experiment.

Yeah.
An interesting thought experiment... here's another one for you... since Lincoln himself knew that the African Americans would never be accepted as US citizens or equals, he was in favor of mass deportation back to Africa.  Liberia is in fact a country setup by free US slaves looking to go back to Africa.

Now, since I am assuming you are neither Jewish or Black... please try out your thought experiment in regards to forcing ALL of the black people who were already in America OUT to a place they did not want to go to.

Go ahead... see if it sounds at all bigoted or racist.

/Jews have been living in Israel of thousands of years
//That's where Jews wanted a homelands, that's where they DIED defending / creating a homeland.
///Unless you are practicing Jewish, I'd suggest you avoid your disturbing thought experiments ...


Well put indeed. Kudos.
 
2013-06-27 09:33:12 AM

Oatworm: If you really want to understand the Middle East, think of your average put-upon geek that's been bullied and kicked around for years. Some of them turn out okay, but a large portion of them turn out bitter and misanthropic. What happens if one of the bitter and misanthropic ones suddenly gets a bunch of money? They start doing really stupid things to prove something to the people that used to push them around, right? Now imagine if an entire culture was tossed into the garbage can during recess and hassled over lunch money every day for 150-200 years. Even if we stop bullying them, they're not going to be magically okay with us, "friend" us on Facebook, and reminisce about the good ol' days at international high school reunions - they're going to get even. Then they're going to raise their  kids to get even. And that's a problem because, well, we're already having terrorist versions of Columbine and Sandy Hook from these guys - if most of them are no longer intimidated by us, then what?


You my Farker friend sound like a reasonable person who finally asked the question that most Israelis did after decades of terrorism.  The answer is simple, the same answer people have given to the question of what do we do against invaders who want to do us harm... kill our women, children, and elderly indiscriminately in a campaign of terror to prove that we should fear them?

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

You build a fence... since good fences make good neighbors.
The only solution to the Middle Eastern problems is to let people live and insert as little hatred as you can humanly possible into this volatile topic.  Then just wait for the old hate to die out and be replaced by more optimistic youth.  That's the only answer I've ever heard that makes sense.
 
2013-06-27 09:37:02 AM

Joe Blowme: As if islam needed any help in hating the US and Jews


I think that's the point of the article... they DID get help.

Perhaps why the US is referred to as BIG SATAN and Israel LITTLE SATAN in all the propaganda.

It's important to understand history if you are to undo the mistakes committed by our fathers.
 
2013-06-27 12:01:14 PM

Livingroom: Relatively Obscure: This all stems from the Bing Bang.  Without it, we wouldn't have any of the problems we suffer through today.

this is what i'm going to name my bing-based porn search portal.



I'd bing it.
 
2013-06-27 12:03:37 PM

sat1va: In the lead-up to the British and US Iranian coup d'etat in 1953 which overthrew the young Iranian democracy and installed the western friendly Shah to act as monarch who was sure to protect western oil interests, the CIA guided and participated in terrorist acts that were made to look like they were committed by communists in to help support the coup. The 25 year reign of the Shah was overthrown by young Islamic fundamentalists, perhaps with the aid of Communist propaganda, but I doubt they needed much coaxing since those young students grew up knowing the CIA had destroyed their democracy.

From wiki:

In early August, the C.I.A. stepped up the pressure. Iranian operatives pretending to be Communists threatened Muslim leaders withsavage punishment if they opposed Mossadegh, seeking to stir anti-Communist sentiment in the religious community. In addition, the secret history says, the house of at least one prominent Muslim was bombed by C.I.A. agents posing as Communists. It does not say whether anyone was hurt in this attack. The agency was also intensifying its propaganda campaign. A leading newspaper owner was granted a personal loan of about $45,000,in the belief that this would make his organ amenable to our purposes. But the shah remained intransigent. In an 1 August meeting with General, he refused to sign the C.I.A.-written decrees firing Mr. Mossadegh and appointing General Zahedi. He said he doubted that the army would support him in a showdown.


Umm. The Shah ruled for 38 years. Look up the Anglo-Soviet Invasion of Iran sometime. The Shah was neutral between the British and the Soviets when they divided the country amongst themselves for the duration of WWII, while his father was pro-Nazi. Given Iran's strategic location and proximity to the oil fields of Azerbaijan, Stalin was keen on keeping his half of the country when he was supposed to withdraw in 1946, and you can make the argument that the Soviet propaganda efforts started in Iran much earlier than the 1970s. I see no functional difference between the events of 1946, and the events of 1953 - The British had problems getting the Soviets to abide by their agreements, and had the US come in with the money/material to fix the problem for them. The talk about Mossadegh being a representative of a democratic government is cute though.
 
2013-06-27 06:33:42 PM

Relatively Obscure: This all stems from the Bing Bang.  Without it, we wouldn't have any of the problems we suffer through today.


Moments before the Bing Bang:

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-06-27 06:59:18 PM
There's been around 100,000 Syrians killed during their civil war the last couple years.  Muslims dead at the hands of other Muslims.

Are you sure the commies didn't do us a favor here?
 
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