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(Appleton Post Crescent)   Fifth year of high school would give kids opportunities to be lazy little shiats for another year   (postcrescent.com) divider line 134
    More: Asinine, fifth year, school colors, high schools  
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4689 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Jun 2013 at 5:21 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-26 05:22:23 PM
You can add 2 years to high school and it wouldn't make a difference. They're not really out to educate anyone. They're there to give standardization tests to ensure than everyone has the absolute bare minimum of what they need to know to pass whatever test of the year they need to pass.

The problem isn't how many years but what type of content is being learned. When you dumb down the curriculum to meet the lowest common student you're essentially wasting the time of the other 75%. As long as they pass those tests though the school leadership can get their bonuses!
 
2013-06-26 05:22:27 PM
Does Ontario still have Grade 13?
 
2013-06-26 05:22:43 PM
No thank you 4 was enough for me.
 
2013-06-26 05:23:02 PM
A lot of kids go to high school for 5 years.  They're called idiots.
 
2013-06-26 05:25:05 PM

AgentKGB: Does Ontario still have Grade 13?


No, not for many years now.

CSB: I was actually in the final year of Grade 13 in Ontario. I turned out ok. It was nice being able to legally drink the first day of university.
 
2013-06-26 05:26:22 PM
They already have a 5th year of high school. It's called the 1st year of college.
 
2013-06-26 05:26:25 PM

xynix: The problem isn't how many years but what type of content is being learned. When you dumb down the curriculum to meet the lowest common student you're essentially wasting the time of the other 75%.


So. Much. This.  High school (and most of my first two years of college) were such an exercise in trying to stay awake.
 
2013-06-26 05:29:51 PM

groppet: No thank you 4 was enough for me.


Pretty much what I was thinking
 
2013-06-26 05:29:55 PM
A lot of people take 7 years to graduate.
 
2013-06-26 05:30:40 PM
I wasn't bored in high school, but then I took as many AP and Honors classes as I felt I could stomach.  Not to mention creative writing and acting electives.

I liked college too.  Maybe I was a strange adolescent.
 
2013-06-26 05:31:19 PM

Launch Code: They already have a 5th year of high school. It's called the 1st year of college.


That's where it could come in handy. Having a standard core of subjects that would make a degree only take three years would make a college education far more affordable.

Not that universities want to make things more affordable....
 
2013-06-26 05:31:21 PM

Keeve: A lot of people take 7 years to graduate.


That would have made a little more sense with the Tommy Boy scene I tried to attach.
 
2013-06-26 05:31:41 PM
I took a fifth year of high school.  It was called "Junior College" and I had to earn money in order to do it.
 
2013-06-26 05:32:43 PM
Obvious tag held back a year?
 
2013-06-26 05:32:55 PM
Seriously?  Add a year?  I honestly think we could cut out a year and get roughly the same outcomes.  Pretty much everyone is either in college mode or checked out by senior year anyway.
 
2013-06-26 05:33:45 PM
Can we please stop pretending that we even care?
 
2013-06-26 05:34:17 PM
I strongly urge anyone that has a friend or family member starting high school to implore the kid to just skip high school. Seriously. Get the GED and just go to college.

Smartest guy I know was a 16 year old freshman when I was a 25 year old "retread" going back to school (I bailed out of engineering but was much happier in management information systems). Dude works for some sort of government agency that he doesn't talk about much and is into cryptocurrencies.

The first couple of years of college are something that any reasonably bright twelve year old could handle, academically.
 
2013-06-26 05:34:19 PM

Keeve: Keeve: A lot of people take 7 years to graduate.

That would have made a little more sense with the Tommy Boy scene I tried to attach.


No no.  In my head I went right there and was gonna finish it, but no need now.
 
2013-06-26 05:35:25 PM
"Fifth year of school would provide more money for graft and cronyism to local school official across the country"

That's what it's really about. The problems with public education in this country are caused by incompetent and corrupt school districts. Period. We don't need LESS federal control over education, we need MORE federal control. Right now, local school districts are "invisible", politically-speaking, and they get away with unbelievable bullshiat, because nobody really pays attention to what the school boards are up to. That kind of sneaking-around isn't as easy to do at the federal level. Too many people are watching what the feds are up to.
 
2013-06-26 05:36:09 PM

xynix: The problem isn't how many years but what type of content is being learned. When you dumb down the curriculum to meet the lowest common student you're essentially wasting the time of the other 75%. As long as they pass those tests though the school leadership can get their bonuses!


In many many western school systems they *kick out* the kids at 15, and only the smart 'half' get to take the last three years, ensuring that they go at a REAL speed and don't squander dollars. The lower half gets to go to trade and art schools, which does very well for many of them (Pink Floyd met at one such school, David Bowie attended one too).

I wonder what would happen if they had to 'remove' the bottom-performing 20% of students every year in June, starting at age 8th grade? at the start of ninth grade, you're have (instead of 100 inductees at 8th grade) 80 students. At the start of 10th grade, 64. At the start of 11th, you'd have 52 students.
 
2013-06-26 05:36:32 PM
High school is a waste of time on many levels. Get your GED or state approved high school proficiency exam by 15, then save yourself a load of money working and going to cheap junior/community college the first two years, then transfer to a four year university and graduate. That last part is all your employer will care about. Ta-da!
 
2013-06-26 05:37:51 PM
Reordering the school year so there is a shorter summer break but longer breaks during the school year might be a better way to do it.

Why we still base the school year on agrarian standards is beyond me.

The tourism industry will biatch and moan, but come on guys, the time between Thanksgiving and the New Year off as winter break, and two weeks during spring break, and 8 weeks in the summer.  You'll thank me for the boost in revenue later.
 
2013-06-26 05:38:36 PM
Oh, to be young and stupid again.... And also a robot.

I'm undeniably in support of giving high schoolers one more year to develop their skills, achieve more of their many goals and to discover the never-ending possibilities of their future.

You don't have to stop working towards your goals once you exit high school...

The reality is that four years is much too little time for many students to do all that they would like to.

That's what college is for, dipshiat.
 
2013-06-26 05:38:37 PM

blatz514: A lot of kids go to high school for 5 years.  They're called idiots.


Anymore, you need a act of congress to hold a kid back in school; most public schools choose to either pass the buck or "encourage" the student in question to drop out.

/ frankly, school isn't for everybody. If it were up to me, I'd allow 16 yearolds to drop out; get the kids that don't want to learn out of the classroom.
 
2013-06-26 05:38:47 PM

Witness99: High school is a waste of time on many levels. Get your GED or state approved high school proficiency exam by 15, then save yourself a load of money working and going to cheap junior/community college the first two years, then transfer to a four year university and graduate. That last part is all your employer will care about. Ta-da!


Or just print up your own diploma to carry with you to job interviews. :)
 
2013-06-26 05:39:36 PM
Just make the fifth year optional. Kinds who don't give a damn can just graduate their 4th year with a basic diploma. While the students who are actually there to learn, or want go on to college can stick around for that fifth year as sort of a 'college prep'.  Of course they'd have to maintain a certain GPA to be allowed to stay.
 
2013-06-26 05:40:46 PM

rubi_con_man: xynix: The problem isn't how many years but what type of content is being learned. When you dumb down the curriculum to meet the lowest common student you're essentially wasting the time of the other 75%. As long as they pass those tests though the school leadership can get their bonuses!

In many many western school systems they *kick out* the kids at 15, and only the smart 'half' get to take the last three years, ensuring that they go at a REAL speed and don't squander dollars. The lower half gets to go to trade and art schools, which does very well for many of them (Pink Floyd met at one such school, David Bowie attended one too).

I wonder what would happen if they had to 'remove' the bottom-performing 20% of students every year in June, starting at age 8th grade? at the start of ninth grade, you're have (instead of 100 inductees at 8th grade) 80 students. At the start of 10th grade, 64 60. At the start of 11th, you'd have 52 40 students.


FTFY

/Hey, why are there thugs here from the Board of Ed, saying something about "Adhesive Manufacturing Tech"?
 
2013-06-26 05:41:12 PM
I aced a couple of AP exams but failed the classes. Honestly I wish that the idiot teachers (in general) had just held me back a grade. I had no trouble learning the material but I was very lazy and it was obvious to me that they would bend over backwards to try and pass everyone so I just didn't try at all. It is frustrating to pass every test put in front of you but still receive failing grades overall.
 
2013-06-26 05:41:55 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who immediately thought "junior college"
/I went to high school there
//literally, there was a charter high school on campus
 
2013-06-26 05:42:18 PM
www.agencynewbusiness.com
approves
 
2013-06-26 05:44:20 PM

Goodluckfox: I strongly urge anyone that has a friend or family member starting high school to implore the kid to just skip high school. Seriously. Get the GED and just go to college.

Smartest guy I know was a 16 year old freshman when I was a 25 year old "retread" going back to school (I bailed out of engineering but was much happier in management information systems). Dude works for some sort of government agency that he doesn't talk about much and is into cryptocurrencies.

The first couple of years of college are something that any reasonably bright twelve year old could handle, academically.


It's not just about the level of challenge. Maturity is a major issue. The person in your anecdote is obviously well off normal. You can't design the system for outliers. As I noted above, I did 5 years of high school. It was normal at the time. We basically took first year university classes and grades were critical for admission in university. It was a good experience in hindsight.

Also keep in mind that education is not about learning specific usable skills. A lot of it is learning disciple and simply learning how to learn efficiently. People who say "I never apply my degree, it was pointless" really don't get that. I'm a perfect example: my degree is in computer engineering which back then was 90% electrical engineering and 10% comp sci. I went into software so I've applied maybe 5% of what I learned in my job but I'm very good at what I do. I am good learner: point me at a problem and I will learn the skills necessary to solve it very quickly. Eventually you get to the point where it's not about skills anymore, it's about the ability to almost immediately grasp the larger picture and the agility to be able to dive into any specific problem and solve it.
 
2013-06-26 05:45:36 PM
"I've been going to this high school for seven and a half years. I'm no dummy."

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-06-26 05:46:27 PM

iheartscotch: blatz514: A lot of kids go to high school for 5 years.  They're called idiots.

Anymore, you need a act of congress to hold a kid back in school; most public schools choose to either pass the buck or "encourage" the student in question to drop out.

/ frankly, school isn't for everybody. If it were up to me, I'd allow 16 yearolds to drop out; get the kids that don't want to learn out of the classroom.


If the education system would RECOGNIZE that some kids are going to be tradesmen, laborers, or equipment operators they could be taking wicked useful curriculum instead of stuff they are trying to ignore.

/there used to be shop classes. I saw a saw at school once.
 
2013-06-26 05:47:04 PM

rubi_con_man: xynix: The problem isn't how many years but what type of content is being learned. When you dumb down the curriculum to meet the lowest common student you're essentially wasting the time of the other 75%. As long as they pass those tests though the school leadership can get their bonuses!

In many many western school systems they *kick out* the kids at 15, and only the smart 'half' get to take the last three years, ensuring that they go at a REAL speed and don't squander dollars. The lower half gets to go to trade and art schools, which does very well for many of them (Pink Floyd met at one such school, David Bowie attended one too).

I wonder what would happen if they had to 'remove' the bottom-performing 20% of students every year in June, starting at age 8th grade? at the start of ninth grade, you're have (instead of 100 inductees at 8th grade) 80 students. At the start of 10th grade, 64. At the start of 11th, you'd have 52 students.


We don't need to kick them out. We just need to bring back the tard classes for the dumb kids. They can do crafts for participation ribbons while the smart kids actually learn.
 
2013-06-26 05:47:16 PM
When I went to high school you could legally drink at 18. That extra year would have been a blast.
 
2013-06-26 05:50:04 PM

baufan2005: Witness99: High school is a waste of time on many levels. Get your GED or state approved high school proficiency exam by 15, then save yourself a load of money working and going to cheap junior/community college the first two years, then transfer to a four year university and graduate. That last part is all your employer will care about. Ta-da!

Or just print up your own diploma to carry with you to job interviews. :)


Yeah except background checks, which any desirable job will perform. You made me think of what used to be referred to as "online diploma mills", as they were referred to 10-15 years ago. Now, just like Match.com, the stigma is gone. If I were 18 I'd go for online education now. I think the era of brick and mortar institutions will die out in my lifetime, so much that I cashed out my pension at the university I used to work at. Don't think the money will be there in 30 years from now.
 
2013-06-26 05:54:05 PM
The author of TFA just graduated from high school.  She's suffering separation anxiety, just like her  first day in kindergarten.

She'll get over it when she discovers frat parties.
 
2013-06-26 05:54:15 PM
This person's reasoning for wanting an extra year is to pack on more extracurricular activities to impress colleges because they didn't listen to what every teacher probably told them from Freshman year.
 
2013-06-26 05:54:41 PM

umad: rubi_con_man: xynix: The problem isn't how many years but what type of content is being learned. When you dumb down the curriculum to meet the lowest common student you're essentially wasting the time of the other 75%. As long as they pass those tests though the school leadership can get their bonuses!

In many many western school systems they *kick out* the kids at 15, and only the smart 'half' get to take the last three years, ensuring that they go at a REAL speed and don't squander dollars. The lower half gets to go to trade and art schools, which does very well for many of them (Pink Floyd met at one such school, David Bowie attended one too).

I wonder what would happen if they had to 'remove' the bottom-performing 20% of students every year in June, starting at age 8th grade? at the start of ninth grade, you're have (instead of 100 inductees at 8th grade) 80 students. At the start of 10th grade, 64. At the start of 11th, you'd have 52 students.

We don't need to kick them out. We just need to bring back the tard classes for the dumb kids. They can do crafts for participation ribbons while the smart kids actually learn.


Why not have two schools?  One for the college track kids, and one for trade track kids?  The tards can do their crafts at home.
 
2013-06-26 05:55:30 PM

Keeve: A lot of people take 7 years to graduate.


I know. They're called doctors..
 
2013-06-26 05:56:57 PM
Most of Europe does 13 years and they finish ahead of US students with a year of college and are ready to become productive members of society or go on to university.  It's work.

Here we pretend seat time will magically create little Einsteins.
 
2013-06-26 05:56:59 PM
Drop standardized tests, add mandatory classes of ethics, personal finance, Resume writing / job interview skills. Then you just might be able to squeeze in an extra year. Or better yet, keep it at four years, add those classes, and drop team sports all together.
 
2013-06-26 05:57:26 PM
www.local10.com
Sum ov us be nee'n sis yearz.
 
2013-06-26 05:58:21 PM

xynix: The problem isn't how many years but what type of content is being learned. When you dumb down the curriculum to meet the lowest common student you're essentially wasting the time of the other 75%. As long as they pass those tests though the school leadership can get their bonuses!


Standardized tests are no different than the professional liscensing tests of today.  You must have a basic minimum of knowledge to pass.  It's not a difficult concept.
 
2013-06-26 05:58:45 PM
Anecdote from a family we're friends with:

All three of their daughters were home schooled--technically they went to a fully accredited independent study charter school funded by the State of California. As soon as they were able, at age 14, they got their GEDs and started at the local community college. For two years those girls aced all their classes. Then, when they were 16 (!) each one of them transferred to Cal-Berkeley, the best public university in the world. The oldest finished at 19 years old with a dual degree in mathematics and linguistics. The middle one just finished with a degree in french and international business. The youngest is just starting there next year and will study dance and party a lot.

Anyway, point is: Take control of your education. It will serve you well.
 
2013-06-26 05:58:52 PM

Ego edo infantia cattus: Drop standardized tests, add mandatory classes of ethics, personal finance, Resume writing / job interview skills. Then you just might be able to squeeze in an extra year. Or better yet, keep it at four years, add those classes, and drop team sports all together.


You sound fat.
 
2013-06-26 05:59:05 PM
Not seen studies about additional years on standard academic tracks, groupings, etc., but I have seen a few where an additional academic year was included in vocational tracks abroad with no increase in likelihood to continue education nor additional earnings on average (any additional earnings over a lifetime were balanced by starting work a year earlier. While our current system is outdated, the primary issue is of total annual review based on date of manufacture birth with remediation being slower and reduced rather than as part of a supplementary program, trades and skills being replacements rather than add-ons, and with only a smattering of programs designed for the motivated and proficient in academics. Education should be far more dynamic, not simply far more time.
 
2013-06-26 06:00:02 PM
The author should spend his fifth year taking a logic class.   If you have another year to do more activities, etc. for college applications, so does everyone else.

Not to mention we have so much extra room in our schools, and extra teachers, etc.  But I especially like this part:    I would have returned to Japan for another year of studying there


So what you would do with your fifth year is not go to your school?  Genius.
 
2013-06-26 06:01:00 PM

Old enough to know better: Just make the fifth year optional. Kinds who don't give a damn can just graduate their 4th year with a basic diploma. While the students who are actually there to learn, or want go on to college can stick around for that fifth year as sort of a 'college prep'.  Of course they'd have to maintain a certain GPA to be allowed to stay.


Nobody has to be a rock star in high school to get into a good college. It's a waste of time. What you want is to get into a good career and gainful employment, and they don't care what you did in high school. Be a rock star in college, and the earlier you exit high school the better.
 
2013-06-26 06:01:06 PM

CruJones: The author should spend his fifth year taking a logic class.   If you have another year to do more activities, etc. for college applications, so does everyone else.

Not to mention we have so much extra room in our schools, and extra teachers, etc.  But I especially like this part:    I would have returned to Japan for another year of studying there


So what you would do with your fifth year is not go to your school?  Genius.


Ahem, **her**
 
2013-06-26 06:02:44 PM

RatMaster999: Why not have two schools? One for the college track kids, and one for trade track kids? The tards can do their crafts at home.


That works too.
 
2013-06-26 06:02:46 PM
The big problem with high school is that classes don't move fast enough to be interesting, while simultaneously teaching just enough to make it nearly impossible to skip a year*.

I skipped a grade back in elementary school and as a result missed the first semester of Spanish.  Never got caught up.  Spent 2.5 years being frustrated before they hit the giant reset button in 7th grade.

Should they have been moving faster?  (And could the exceedingly pointless 3/4ths of a year spent on geometry that wasn't trig been skipped or shortened?)  Yep.  Could I have skipped a year, and popped right back into place without major, major pain?  Nope.

* This only applies to things like Math, and to a certain extent Science where Year N+1 builds on Year N.  My various history classes could have been in any order.
 
2013-06-26 06:03:47 PM
farking morons. Futurama got it right when they said highschool is basically daycare for young adults. It's because EVERYONE is supposed to go they have softened the standards. So you get people who don't want to be there and make trouble, and you have people who shouldn't be there and get bored and make trouble.

The average freshman could be run through a GED program in a few weeks. If you can't make four years of HS better then fark off.

If you have a smart but bored kid his behavioral problems are boredom. It took until years after HS for me to realize how badly my so called educators failed me. When the other kids were reading Boxcar Kids and I was reading Asimov's Foundation books THEY SHOULD have noticed the difference.

I had these as my first educators.

fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net

I was born in late 79 and learned touch typing on an Apple IIc from some bears. I played text adventures (at home) while in first grade.

I can only hope educators have learned to separate out the kids coming pre-educated from the unread masses. There's a lot of ADHD that's just a matter of accelerating the kids to beyond their zone of competence.
 
2013-06-26 06:05:19 PM
No.
 
2013-06-26 06:05:30 PM

RatMaster999: Why not have two schools?  One for the college track kids, and one for trade track kids?  The tards can do their crafts at home.


We have that already.. It's called private school (where my son goes) and public school. My son's school is college prep until 11th grade and part of 12th they start college courses. 100% college attendance rate since 2007. 98% of those grads were accepted into their first choice. Class size is around 10 with 40-50 students per grade level.

Smeggy Smurf: Standardized tests are no different than the professional liscensing tests of today.  You must have a basic minimum of knowledge to pass.  It's not a difficult concept.


Unfortunately when you're only job is to do the bare minimum to get people to pass those tests.. the vast majority are short changed.
 
2013-06-26 06:05:44 PM

Ego edo infantia cattus: drop team sports all together


Surely it would be good for our kids to get even less exercise than they do currently. What could possibly go wrong? We should cut P.E. and recess too.
 
2013-06-26 06:05:54 PM
Why not two more years or ten?!

My senior year and the senior slide was evident.  I had two teachers who's goal was to fail as many seniors as possible, I had some teachers who said "Your seniors, nothing I am teaching is going to matter in a few months and I get paid the same if I'm a hard teacher or an easy one."

The problem with high school is that it is so generalized that it does no good.  Me, I put in my 4 years, got that diploma and a minimum wage job.  A friend of mine dropped out, got a job the next day and as I was making minimum wage he was making $20/hr.  We need to change high school.  Put some who have the ability to do well in college into a college bound program.  Make them aware of every scholarship out there, get them doing college work early.  Even blend their jr. and senior years into college years.  Those that aren't college material, go for a trade.  Something so that when they graduate they don't have to settle for a minimum wage job, but rather, earn more money from the start, or even, earn money while in school doing some sort of co-op.
 
2013-06-26 06:08:00 PM

LeroyBourne: Keeve: Keeve: A lot of people take 7 years to graduate.

That would have made a little more sense with the Tommy Boy scene I tried to attach.

No no.  In my head I went right there and was gonna finish it, but no need now.


Yeah, THEY'RE CALLED DOCTORS!

//gah...  sorry... I couldn't hold it in any longer...
 
2013-06-26 06:09:15 PM
FTA: To many people, four years in one building can seem endless.

Just wait until those people hit the working world.
 
2013-06-26 06:09:34 PM
Articles like this are proof-positive that dipshiats like the author Mia Sato shouldn't be allowed to vote or breed.

Such inane meanderings and cluelessness are usually reserved for rehab facilities full of retarded monkeys.
 
2013-06-26 06:10:47 PM
I did Grade 13 in Toronto. Don't remember the details, but I seems to remember I picked a lot of courses (Calculus, Higher Algebra, etc.) relevant to what I planned to take (Chemistry and Electrical) in university. It did help quite a bit.
 
2013-06-26 06:11:51 PM

umad: Ego edo infantia cattus: drop team sports all together

Surely it would be good for our kids to get even less exercise than they do currently. What could possibly go wrong? We should cut P.E. and recess too.


Especially seeing as team sports don't really take away from any class time.   Over my high school career I played 6 different varsity sports.

And I could throw a football over those mountains.
 
2013-06-26 06:12:01 PM

rubi_con_man: xynix: The problem isn't how many years but what type of content is being learned. When you dumb down the curriculum to meet the lowest common student you're essentially wasting the time of the other 75%. As long as they pass those tests though the school leadership can get their bonuses!

In many many western school systems they *kick out* the kids at 15, and only the smart 'half' get to take the last three years, ensuring that they go at a REAL speed and don't squander dollars. The lower half gets to go to trade and art schools, which does very well for many of them (Pink Floyd met at one such school, David Bowie attended one too).

I wonder what would happen if they had to 'remove' the bottom-performing 20% of students every year in June, starting at age 8th grade? at the start of ninth grade, you're have (instead of 100 inductees at 8th grade) 80 students. At the start of 10th grade, 64. At the start of 11th, you'd have 52 students.


That would be a silly system. Set a few hard cut off points on grades. And none of that silly letter grading or on a curve. Just keep track of the percentages of the points students get for their exams. Every year drop people who score lower than 60% on the course.

As I have said before, we have a tiered education program in the Netherlands. Everyone follows the same curriculum from age 4 up to age 12 (8 years in one "basis"school) and after that you get to pick your level, with some guidance based on how well you did on a national exam and the opinion of your teacher. And once you pick the tier you feel best about, everyone can go his or her merry way.

This system ensures that people are being taught at their level. No being bored because other people don't understand how to calculate the surface as expressed in cats (20 cats by 25 cats makes the surface 500 square cats) or the physics behind the ideal beer bong (you get to drive at 16, we get to drink beer at 16. You get to drink alcohol at 21, we get to drink hard liquor, smoke weed and drive at 18). I know people who had subject matter in year four that was discussed in my first year. I'd be dead by now if I had to go at that speed.
 
2013-06-26 06:13:58 PM

xynix: RatMaster999: Why not have two schools?  One for the college track kids, and one for trade track kids?  The tards can do their crafts at home.

We have that already.. It's called private school (where my son goes) and public school. My son's school is college prep until 11th grade and part of 12th they start college courses. 100% college attendance rate since 2007. 98% of those grads were accepted into their first choice. Class size is around 10 with 40-50 students per grade level.

Smeggy Smurf: Standardized tests are no different than the professional liscensing tests of today.  You must have a basic minimum of knowledge to pass.  It's not a difficult concept.

Unfortunately when you're only job is to do the bare minimum to get people to pass those tests.. the vast majority are short changed.


Yes, because none of those unwashed masses at "public school" are college-bound, yes?
 
2013-06-26 06:14:01 PM

xynix: You can add 2 years to high school and it wouldn't make a difference. They're not really out to educate anyone. They're there to give standardization tests to ensure than everyone has the absolute bare minimum of what they need to know to pass whatever test of the year they need to pass.

The problem isn't how many years but what type of content is being learned. When you dumb down the curriculum to meet the lowest common student you're essentially wasting the time of the other 75%. As long as they pass those tests though the school leadership can get their bonuses!


That started way before standardized tests. It started woth the democrat theory of inclusion where seperating the gifted from the rest was seen as hurting lil Johnny s self esteem. This led to the inclusion of the mentally handicapped as well.

The problem, as you point out, is this leads to teaching to the lowest learning level. Yet you don't see liberals fighting to allow seperation of intelligence in schools.
 
2013-06-26 06:16:04 PM

JohnAnnArbor: "I've been going to this high school for seven and a half years. I'm no dummy."

[25.media.tumblr.com image 320x240]


Came for this; leaving satisfied.
Now I'm off to drink some of this awesome eggnog my brother makes with lighter fluid...
 
2013-06-26 06:18:26 PM

CruJones: The author should spend his fifth year taking a logic class.   If you have another year to do more activities, etc. for college applications, so does everyone else.

Not to mention we have so much extra room in our schools, and extra teachers, etc.  But I especially like this part:    I would have returned to Japan for another year of studying there


So what you would do with your fifth year is not go to your school?  Genius.


She sounds like the people who didn't listen to the advisors and teachers told them from day 1 of highschool that good grades and test scores aren't the only thing that matters when getting into college.

It reminds me of these two guys that I graduated with. They both applied to Northwestern. They both had the same GPA and one guy's SAT scores were slightly higher than the other guy's. However the guy with the slightly lower SAT score also wrestled and played baseball, was a part of this peer help program at the school, volunteered with some other programs with his church and worked during the summers. The other guy didn't do any extracurriculars, just went to school and hung out with friends. Guess which one was excepted to Northwestern and which one wasn't?

I remember the guy that didn't get into Northwestern pitching a blue fit over it. When anybody would try to explain to him that it was because he didn't have any extracurriculars when other people were bringing the same grades and test scores to the table but they also were loaded with extracurriculars, he would always say that his job was to get good grades and that's it. He just didn't get it.
 
2013-06-26 06:21:20 PM
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that this would provide an additional year for teenage men to bang hot twenty something teachers. Fark, I am disappoint, or something...
 
2013-06-26 06:21:43 PM
I'd say most kids by the age of about 14 know whether they're in the "going to college/university" group or not... barring them changing their minds at the last minute or their parents telling them to go to university or no more allowance. (Sadly it happened to one of my classmates... straight C & D student... she chose Pharmacology and Christmas Graduated™).

I also agree with the posters above that some classes progress way too slowly. Maybe there's a way they can do different levels of certain classes. Such as the difference between, say, Algebra 20/30 and General Math 20/30. (Some of my fellow Canadian farkers will know those classes as Algebra 11/12). Our Alg 20 & 30 went by at a really good pace because the kids that struggled so badly with Alg 10 signed up for General Math 20. Could they make easier variants of certain classes and award the same number of credits? Kids that would struggle in the other class would be less frustrated, their classmates would be less frustrated, the teacher would be less frustrated etc.


Jument: AgentKGB: Does Ontario still have Grade 13?

No, not for many years now.

CSB: I was actually in the final year of Grade 13 in Ontario. I turned out ok. It was nice being able to legally drink the first day of university.


Ah okay. Thank you for the information.
 
2013-06-26 06:23:02 PM
fifth year would be great.  School all year long would be greater.

College isn't for the poor or even the middle class.  It was designed for the rich.  If you're not rich then it can be a full-on waste of time and money.
I'm not talking about 250k a year rich or even 500k a year rich.  College was designed for the children of the rich to meet other children of the rich.
Choate? Rich Harvard? rich UCONN? Trade school MIT? engineers - not necessarily rich

doesn't matter if it's five years or six - If you aren't in the top 20% of wage earners, college might just be a huge waste of time and money.
I teach at the university level - I work hardest and making it NOT a waste of time and money.
 
2013-06-26 06:24:49 PM
FIFTH YEAR?  By that point, you should do one of two things: If they're stupid and lazy, just hand them a McDonald's hat and say "Repeat after me: 'Would you like fries with that?" and leave it there.

If they're smart and just not cut out for academic-style school, train them in the wrenches, welding torches, and other power tools. They'll be owning their own businesses or managing a shift soon enough.
 
2013-06-26 06:25:24 PM

Jument: Goodluckfox: I strongly urge anyone that has a friend or family member starting high school to implore the kid to just skip high school. Seriously. Get the GED and just go to college.

Smartest guy I know was a 16 year old freshman when I was a 25 year old "retread" going back to school (I bailed out of engineering but was much happier in management information systems). Dude works for some sort of government agency that he doesn't talk about much and is into cryptocurrencies.

The first couple of years of college are something that any reasonably bright twelve year old could handle, academically.

It's not just about the level of challenge. Maturity is a major issue. The person in your anecdote is obviously well off normal. You can't design the system for outliers. As I noted above, I did 5 years of high school. It was normal at the time. We basically took first year university classes and grades were critical for admission in university. It was a good experience in hindsight.

Also keep in mind that education is not about learning specific usable skills. A lot of it is learning disciple and simply learning how to learn efficiently. People who say "I never apply my degree, it was pointless" really don't get that. I'm a perfect example: my degree is in computer engineering which back then was 90% electrical engineering and 10% comp sci. I went into software so I've applied maybe 5% of what I learned in my job but I'm very good at what I do. I am good learner: point me at a problem and I will learn the skills necessary to solve it very quickly. Eventually you get to the point where it's not about skills anymore, it's about the ability to almost immediately grasp the larger picture and the agility to be able to dive into any specific problem and solve it.


My concern is the high schools that do not teach this anymore. Much of my public schooling was rote, instead of useful knowledge skills such as these.
 
2013-06-26 06:25:36 PM
First repeal NCLB. No other solution matters until then.

After that, here's a bunch of other pipe dream education solutions I can think of or endorse:
- Open more schools. More schools means more teachers and fewer students per building. Thus smaller class sizes and more attention can be paid per student.

- Year round school. My 10-year old self would be aghast to hear that suggestion, but if it helps retention of knowledge and allows students to advance to higher learning it will be for the greater good in the long run.

- Start school later in the day. One of the worst parts about school was waking up so early when, as a kid and teenager, you need more sleep. School from 10-5 would probably have so much better attention on average.

- Integrate subjects. English and reading give a student the most basic skills to learn anything else. There is history to math and science. Sports (i.e. Gym class) have physical and mathematical underpinnings to them, not to mention history and statistics. When subjects are taught in isolation of each other, they make the world feel disjointed and lacking in context.

- Critical thinking and Logic should be more emphasized from as early as possible and throughout high school. They might not remember when Burr shot Hamilton or know the square root of 4, but if they can reason their way through their day in a rational, logical manner their education will not be in vain.

- More essays, less multiple choice. Essays allow a student to directly communicate their knowledge. Multiple choice is usually a matter of odds. If students are taught to articulate their thoughts in tests more than filling in blanks or circles, then as adults they will be better trained to articulate their thoughts to others on a general basis.
 
2013-06-26 06:27:23 PM

Marcintosh: fifth year would be great.  School all year long would be greater.

College isn't for the poor or even the middle class.  It was designed for the rich.  If you're not rich then it can be a full-on waste of time and money.
I'm not talking about 250k a year rich or even 500k a year rich.  College was designed for the children of the rich to meet other children of the rich.
Choate? Rich Harvard? rich UCONN? Trade school MIT? engineers - not necessarily rich

doesn't matter if it's five years or six - If you aren't in the top 20% of wage earners, college might just be a huge waste of time and money.
I teach at the university level - I work hardest and making it NOT a waste of time and money.


I went to Worcester State. Pretty sure that wasn't founded "for the rich". The Undergrad degree is worth what a HS diploma was a generation ago.
 
2013-06-26 06:27:31 PM
I guess it's brilliant idea. if the end game is to keep kids in school as long as possible, knowing full well there are no jobs for them. yet still feeling slightly guilty for saddling them with debt from college they can never hope to pay, since like I said there are no jobs
I say high school to age 67 whatever grade that might be! what the hell is that 55 grade? I don't i'm a dumbass.
 
2013-06-26 06:28:49 PM

Kuta: The oldest finished at 19 years old with a dual degree in mathematics and linguistics. The middle one just finished with a degree in french and international business. The youngest is just starting there next year and will study dance and party a lot.

Anyway, point is: Take control of your education. It will serve you well.


This is a pretty cool story and all, but are they happy? I can't imagine a home schooled 19 year old graduating college with a math and linguistics degree has enjoyed life very much or can even speak to other people (their peers or elders) very well.
 
2013-06-26 06:29:28 PM

Marcintosh: fifth year would be great.  School all year long would be greater.

College isn't for the poor or even the middle class.  It was designed for the rich.  If you're not rich then it can be a full-on waste of time and money.
I'm not talking about 250k a year rich or even 500k a year rich.  College was designed for the children of the rich to meet other children of the rich.
Choate? Rich Harvard? rich UCONN? Trade school MIT? engineers - not necessarily rich

doesn't matter if it's five years or six - If you aren't in the top 20% of wage earners, college might just be a huge waste of time and money.
I teach at the university level - I work hardest and making it NOT a waste of time and money.


Have you ever seen that study showing that after making $75K/yr, your "happiness level" doesn't really change? You don't need $250K, and college is a way to get a decent salary. Teaching, however...that's something you do because you supposedly love it, and never because you want a good salary. You could take your degree and make more money.
 
2013-06-26 06:30:27 PM

cabbyman: LeroyBourne: Keeve: Keeve: A lot of people take 7 years to graduate.

That would have made a little more sense with the Tommy Boy scene I tried to attach.

No no.  In my head I went right there and was gonna finish it, but no need now.

Yeah, THEY'RE CALLED DOCTORS!

//gah...  sorry... I couldn't hold it in any longer...


It's got a thin candy shell, it'll be fine.
Your head's a thin candy shell.
Yoooour a thin..candy...
Are you talking?
/such a classic movie.
 
2013-06-26 06:37:27 PM

DerAppie: Everyone follows the same curriculum from age 4 up to age 12 (8 years in one "basis"school) and after that you get to pick your level, with some guidance based on how well you did on a national exam and the opinion of your teacher. And once you pick the tier you feel best about, everyone can go his or her merry way.


So we sort of had this at my high school.  You had Honors X and you had X.  You weren't moving any faster, but you were doing harder problems, occasionally diverging onto fun little sidetracks (Think  http://xkcd.com/179/ (but local equivalents.  We didn't get THERE until freshman year of college).  Regular got the first exchange, but we got the second), had an assumed level of competence, no gang problem (too close to Detroit for comfort), and usually got to take and ace the AP tests.  \

So one kid might have gym; European History with some random idiot; Random English classes; normal Physics; and normal English, while the AP kid would have AP Physics with Finn; BC Calculus with Azeez; AP European History with K; Band, Orchestra, and Choir scheduled for the same period (not joking.  We'd send about 4-5 kids a year to college as music or voice majors); and AP English (and before Trimesters, they'd add AP Stats and AP Spanish.  I believe they ended trimesters a few years after I left because of this)
 
2013-06-26 06:39:28 PM

xynix: RatMaster999: Why not have two schools?  One for the college track kids, and one for trade track kids?  The tards can do their crafts at home.

We have that already.. It's called private school (where my son goes) and public school. My son's school is college prep until 11th grade and part of 12th they start college courses. 100% college attendance rate since 2007. 98% of those grads were accepted into their first choice. Class size is around 10 with 40-50 students per grade level.

Smeggy Smurf: Standardized tests are no different than the professional liscensing tests of today.  You must have a basic minimum of knowledge to pass.  It's not a difficult concept.

Unfortunately when you're only job is to do the bare minimum to get people to pass those tests.. the vast majority are short changed.


Then raise the standards.  But that means teachers will have to work and that's against union policy
 
2013-06-26 06:42:09 PM

Marcintosh: fifth year would be great.  School all year long would be greater.

College isn't for the poor or even the middle class.  It was designed for the rich.  If you're not rich then it can be a full-on waste of time and money.
I'm not talking about 250k a year rich or even 500k a year rich.  College was designed for the children of the rich to meet other children of the rich.
Choate? Rich Harvard? rich UCONN? Trade school MIT? engineers - not necessarily rich

doesn't matter if it's five years or six - If you aren't in the top 20% of wage earners, college might just be a huge waste of time and money.
I teach at the university level - I work hardest and making it NOT a waste of time and money.


Have you ever read Neil Stephenson's essay on the Midwestern American College Town?

Yale and Harvard and similar were totally designed for the rich to be rich.  Pretty much every other state college west of the Appalachians were designed to let the middle-class be middle-class.
 
2013-06-26 06:44:42 PM

Smeggy Smurf: Standardized tests are no different than the professional liscensing tests of today.  You must have a basic minimum of knowledge to pass.  It's not a difficult concept.


And so long as the tests measure what we think is important, that's fine.

But throughout human history we've been much more likely to make important the things we know how to measure than to learn to measure the things that are important.
 
2013-06-26 06:49:49 PM

profplump: Smeggy Smurf: Standardized tests are no different than the professional liscensing tests of today.  You must have a basic minimum of knowledge to pass.  It's not a difficult concept.

And so long as the tests measure what we think is important, that's fine.

But throughout human history we've been much more likely to make important the things we know how to measure than to learn to measure the things that are important.


The important stuff is pretty simple.  The fundamentals and practical application of the english language, math, biology, chemistry and physics.  Standardized tests on social studies and history need to be limited to the undeniable facts.  The rest should not be standardized tests.
 
2013-06-26 06:50:11 PM
profplump: But throughout human history we've been much more likely to make important the things we know how to measure than to learn to measure the things that are important.

EVERYONE SHUT UP AND READ THIS.

Thank you.
 
2013-06-26 06:51:02 PM

Smeggy Smurf: profplump: Smeggy Smurf: Standardized tests are no different than the professional liscensing tests of today.  You must have a basic minimum of knowledge to pass.  It's not a difficult concept.

And so long as the tests measure what we think is important, that's fine.

But throughout human history we've been much more likely to make important the things we know how to measure than to learn to measure the things that are important.

The important stuff is pretty simple.  The fundamentals and practical application of the english language, math, biology, chemistry and physics.  Standardized tests on social studies and history need to be limited to the undeniable facts.  The rest should not be standardized tests.


Please list a single historical fact that is undeniable.
 
2013-06-26 06:53:50 PM
The high school my kid is starting in the fall has a trimester program. The classes are more consensed, and for students who work hard enough, part of their junior year and all of their senior year could count towards college credit.

They also have a building trades and shop program for those less inclined towards a 4-year college program. This school system also has no problem having kids repeat a grade if they don't meet their academic standards. Several graduates have done an extra year (or even two) here.

I'm about ready to lobby for shorter summer vacation and later start times though. 7:30am is BS.
 
2013-06-26 06:54:10 PM

Witness99: High school is a waste of time on many levels. Get your GED or state approved high school proficiency exam by 15, then save yourself a load of money working and going to cheap junior/community college the first two years, then transfer to a four year university and graduate. That last part is all your employer will care about. Ta-da!


That approach would impress the shiat out of many employers.
 
2013-06-26 06:54:27 PM

AgentKGB: I'd say most kids by the age of about 14 know whether they're in the "going to college/university" group or not...


That's not true at all. There's such a huge push in high schools to tell everyone to go to college that more than 65% of graduating high school students immediately enroll in a degree-granting program (i.e. associate or bachelors program). But only about 40% of them will eventually earn a degree (and only about 30% a bachelor's). That's not an insignificant difference, and that's among 18-year-olds. I expect at 14-years-old the gap is even wider.

Now that's not to say we couldn't give kids more realistic expectations while still encouraging high educational attainment, but the system we've got today does no such thing.
 
2013-06-26 06:56:09 PM

profplump: But throughout human history we've been much more likely to make important the things we know how to measure than to learn to measure the things that are important.


application.denofgeek.com
 
2013-06-26 06:56:44 PM

rubi_con_man: xynix: The problem isn't how many years but what type of content is being learned. When you dumb down the curriculum to meet the lowest common student you're essentially wasting the time of the other 75%. As long as they pass those tests though the school leadership can get their bonuses!

In many many western school systems they *kick out* the kids at 15, and only the smart 'half' get to take the last three years, ensuring that they go at a REAL speed and don't squander dollars. The lower half gets to go to trade and art schools, which does very well for many of them (Pink Floyd met at one such school, David Bowie attended one too).

I wonder what would happen if they had to 'remove' the bottom-performing 20% of students every year in June, starting at age 8th grade? at the start of ninth grade, you're have (instead of 100 inductees at 8th grade) 80 students. At the start of 10th grade, 64. At the start of 11th, you'd have 52 students.


This is actually a really good idea, but here in the US we have everybody worshiping at the altar of the "Four Year Degree".  How many times do you hear people talking about making college educations available to everyone, how many parents and relatives told you that you can't amount to anything without a college degree.  We've embedded college into the American Dream myth as definitively as a tract home in the suburbs, a dog, and 2.5 children.

And yeah, that is bad.  The world needs ditch diggers, more importantly it needs plumbers, carpenters, machinists, and all sorts of skilled trades that don't require a Batchelor's.  It's made a mockery of what a proper college education used to be, an education that was *not* really needed by most people.  But you'll never get people to accept that learning a trade by apprenticeship or going to a vocational school is somehow not a failure, because it is "less" of an education than the fancy pants college kid with his degree on the wall.  And remember, in america, everyone deserves the best.
 
2013-06-26 06:58:28 PM

Keeve: A lot of people take 7 years to graduate.


CSB

I recently interviewed a candidate who wrote on his resume his start and end dates for his bachelors degree in basketweaving... It took him 7 years.

Then I cross referenced his LinkedIn profile and found out he had failed to mention he went to community college first for 2 years before going to this "university" (both while not working except at one student aid job for about 6 months) and lied about the dates, meaning he spent 8 years on that bachelors after community college.

-Total of 10 years to get a BS in basketweaving from dipshiat "university".

My boss told me his "friend" gave him this resume, so he wanted to interview him anyway. Turns out his "friend" was one of our vendors, and this guy had worked for his "friend" at another company.

When confronted with this my boss's face went white and said, "I didn't know that, he just handed me his resume". -This is known as a conflict of interest.

So we go on to interview the guy. After an hour and a half of this guy rambling on about every thing under the sun *except* his qualifications (and drawing a picture of a PC when asked to describe how to create an LPAR), we were done. I asked my boss what he thought... He thought it went *well*.

I then mentioned to him... "You *do* realize he didn't answer a single technical question I gave him correctly right?"

"Oh."

FFS if you are in a position to hire someone in IT for a management position, please make sure they at least have a BS in Computer Science. No, you *can't* manage technical people if you can't understand the work. -Anyone who thinks they can is a colossal idiot and is going to cost you *mountains* of money and pain.
 
2013-06-26 07:03:38 PM
Do away with "No Student Left Behind" and start teaching the kids that want to learn.  Let the other be stupid somewhere else.  Life is about succeeding and failing.  Teach that.
 
2013-06-26 07:09:45 PM

Honest Bender: profplump: But throughout human history we've been much more likely to make important the things we know how to measure than to learn to measure the things that are important.

[application.denofgeek.com image 480x313]


However, this is rarely achieved owing to man's unique ability to be distracted from spiritual matters by everyday trivia.
 
2013-06-26 07:13:51 PM

CruJones: umad: Ego edo infantia cattus: drop team sports all together

Surely it would be good for our kids to get even less exercise than they do currently. What could possibly go wrong? We should cut P.E. and recess too.

Especially seeing as team sports don't really take away from any class time.   Over my high school career I played 6 different varsity sports.

And I could throw a football over those mountains.


Fist off, I said team sports, not physical education. Secondly, No, they don't take away from class time, they take away the budget. In some schools, they take priority over all other parts of the budget which is absolutely farking stupid.
 
2013-06-26 07:18:44 PM

meintx2001: Do away with "No Student Left Behind" and start teaching the kids that want to learn.  Let the other be stupid somewhere else.  Life is about succeeding and failing.  Teach that.


Hey HEY! Why don't you take your fancy logic and reasonable arguement and...

Yeah, I got nothin'.
 
2013-06-26 07:19:20 PM

Jument: AgentKGB: Does Ontario still have Grade 13?

No, not for many years now.

CSB: I was actually in the final year of Grade 13 in Ontario. I turned out ok. It was nice being able to legally drink the first day of university.


You can bet the farm that in the future some overpaid government "expert" will advise a "Minister of Education" that re-introducing "Grade 12" will be a good thing. And the morons with short memories will vote for them like trained seals.

Ontario has a really bad track record for Education Ministers. One was even a high school dropout. Another was a certified biatch.

And HS kids in Ontario are forced into "community service" to pass high school. Just like convicted criminals. Of course they call it "Volunteering" to make it sound better,
 
2013-06-26 07:24:31 PM

wildcardjack: farking morons. Futurama got it right when they said highschool is basically daycare for young adults.


Came to say this.
Public schools (all grades) are simply publicly funded daycare.  Once you accept this the failures of the system make perfect sense.
 
2013-06-26 07:24:54 PM

Old enough to know better: Just make the fifth year optional. Kinds who don't give a damn can just graduate their 4th year with a basic diploma. While the students who are actually there to learn, or want go on to college can stick around for that fifth year as sort of a 'college prep'.  Of course they'd have to maintain a certain GPA to be allowed to stay.


Yea I'd love seeing more flexibility put into the system. Some kids might be better suited for 2 years of college and 1-2 years of technical training. Maybe others want rigorous college prep in high school.

I want something in between cutting the "dumb" kids in 5th grade and forcing them all into manual labor or technical jobs and dragging everyone along for 12 years whether they benefit from it or not. Realize that it is crazy to expect everyone to learn at the same speed and in the same way, but don't just throw kids under the bus because their parents were busy smoking crack instead of teaching them to read.

Also, encourage kids to skip high school? I studied engineering in college and maybe 10-20% of the freshmen switched majors because the math was too hard or because they didn't have any study skills (or because they found something they liked more.), do you really think all 15 year old kids would do well in college?? I was moody, overly emotional, and extremely shy at that age- I could not have done college even if I was prepared academically. I'm sure some kids can, but encourage all your relative's kids to skip high school?
 
2013-06-26 07:32:37 PM

Gabrielmot: CSB

I recently interviewed a candidate

...

Sadly, it sounds like your story might still end with that dude getting the job. You have to remember that knowing people and also bullshiatting people are two of the best ways to get hired.
 
2013-06-26 07:33:13 PM

Smeggy Smurf: The fundamentals and practical application of the english language, math, biology, chemistry and physics.


It's easy to say the standard is "mastery of the fundamentals of language" but I suspect you'd have a much harder time devising a reliable measurement of that standard.

What constitutes "fundamentals"? Or "mastery"? Are you sure those aspects you've named are the ones that are and will continue to be important in terms of say, effective communication or vocational suitability? Are we measuring mastery in reading, speaking, listening, or writing? Are you sure your test can be consistently scored by different graders? Are you sure your test doesn't make assumptions about culture or dialect or any of 100 other things that might influence the scores independently of the intended measurement?

If you've really got a method to resolve those sorts of issues systematically there are a lot of people who would like to subscribe to your newsletter -- the inability to quickly and accurately measure things like this is a huge problem in many areas from education to hiring to elections, and even incremental improvements over the current process would be very useful.
 
2013-06-26 07:36:49 PM
An extra year of high school? My last three years of high school were a waste of time as it was.
 
2013-06-26 07:36:59 PM
static.tvguide.com
 
2013-06-26 07:48:54 PM
Jument - Eventually you get to the point where it's not about skills anymore, it's about the ability to almost immediately grasp the larger picture and the agility to be able to dive into any specific problem and solve it.

You are absolutely, 100% correct. However, since that reality canot be shown on a resume, nor does having that expensive piece of paper prove you can do that either, there is little chance that those of us who are like you can get any chance to show prospective employers this. And, since these same employers were trained in their MBA class to only accept what is written on the page, we are royally screwed. I suggest you kiss whatever ass you can to make sure you keep that job, because once you hit 40, you will be sitting on your porch wondering why people don't hire competent workers anymore. Take it from someone who is living it right this moment!
 
2013-06-26 07:57:30 PM
Forget that nonsense. I was done with my HS credits by the end of year three. Spent the 4th year just taking elective that i wanted to.
 
2013-06-26 08:01:48 PM

wildcardjack: If you have a smart but bored kid his behavioral problems are boredom. It took until years after HS for me to realize how badly my so called educators failed me. When the other kids were reading Boxcar Kids and I was reading Asimov's Foundation books THEY SHOULD have noticed the difference.


I was actively discouraged from reading above my grade level and had behavioral problems due to boredom.  Thanks, public education system!

// Got through undergrad in three years
// Even had a real major
 
2013-06-26 08:02:38 PM

spidermilk: Old enough to know better: Just make the fifth year optional. Kinds who don't give a damn can just graduate their 4th year with a basic diploma. While the students who are actually there to learn, or want go on to college can stick around for that fifth year as sort of a 'college prep'.  Of course they'd have to maintain a certain GPA to be allowed to stay.

Yea I'd love seeing more flexibility put into the system. Some kids might be better suited for 2 years of college and 1-2 years of technical training. Maybe others want rigorous college prep in high school.

I want something in between cutting the "dumb" kids in 5th grade and forcing them all into manual labor or technical jobs and dragging everyone along for 12 years whether they benefit from it or not. Realize that it is crazy to expect everyone to learn at the same speed and in the same way, but don't just throw kids under the bus because their parents were busy smoking crack instead of teaching them to read.

Also, encourage kids to skip high school? I studied engineering in college and maybe 10-20% of the freshmen switched majors because the math was too hard or because they didn't have any study skills (or because they found something they liked more.), do you really think all 15 year old kids would do well in college?? I was moody, overly emotional, and extremely shy at that age- I could not have done college even if I was prepared academically. I'm sure some kids can, but encourage all your relative's kids to skip high school?


High school moves very slow (lowest common denominator). Or, the faster kid can do AP classes. Either way, high schools (in my very humble opinion and experience) are run by nimrods. Four years of it is a waste of time. The ambitious kid is smarter and more ambitious than his or her alcoholic, loser, low paid teachers. Not all of course, just generalizing.
HS curriculum can easily be absorbed in two years. As far as maturity levels, I noticed very little difference between HS and college. Just my experience.
 
2013-06-26 08:19:10 PM

payattention: Jument - Eventually you get to the point where it's not about skills anymore, it's about the ability to almost immediately grasp the larger picture and the agility to be able to dive into any specific problem and solve it.

You are absolutely, 100% correct. However, since that reality canot be shown on a resume, nor does having that expensive piece of paper prove you can do that either, there is little chance that those of us who are like you can get any chance to show prospective employers this. And, since these same employers were trained in their MBA class to only accept what is written on the page, we are royally screwed. I suggest you kiss whatever ass you can to make sure you keep that job, because once you hit 40, you will be sitting on your porch wondering why people don't hire competent workers anymore. Take it from someone who is living it right this moment!


Hmm, can this really not be shown to a prospective employer? Or could one think out of the box (resume) to solve the problem?
 
2013-06-26 08:26:37 PM

Witness99: Hmm, can this really not be shown to a prospective employer? Or could one think out of the box (resume) to solve the problem?


The problem is that hiring tends to go like this:

*Ship resume to HR.
*Lacks buzzwords and 10 years of experience in custom software made for the company 3 years ago.
*DENIED

or this:

* Call buddy at BigCorp and mention you need a job
* He tells his manager that you're good and available.  Manager says "Fark You" because manager is incompetent or powerless.
* DENIED

or this:

*  Call buddy at BigCorp and mention you need a job
* He tells his manager that you're good and available.  Manager says OK, we'll give him a try, and maybe gives a test interview.
* HR says "Fark you, all hiring goes through us"
* DENIED

or this:

* Get interview
* Ace interview
* DENIED
* Company hires H-1B saying "No qualified Americans"

/To fix the last, give the Visa to the employee.  Company can sponsor, but the worker shouldn't be forced to be tied to the company.
 
2013-06-26 08:33:05 PM

Honest Bender: profplump: But throughout human history we've been much more likely to make important the things we know how to measure than to learn to measure the things that are important.

[application.denofgeek.com image 480x313]


goddamnit i laffed my coffee out
 
2013-06-26 08:40:05 PM
Whatever. I finished high school, all AP courses, by the end of the first week. It was soooooooooooo easy. Then I took Morgan Fairchild to the prom after I hit the gym.
 
2013-06-26 08:44:56 PM

meyerkev: Witness99: Hmm, can this really not be shown to a prospective employer? Or could one think out of the box (resume) to solve the problem?

The problem is that hiring tends to go like this:

*Ship resume to HR.
*Lacks buzzwords and 10 years of experience in custom software made for the company 3 years ago.
*DENIED

or this:

* Call buddy at BigCorp and mention you need a job
* He tells his manager that you're good and available.  Manager says "Fark You" because manager is incompetent or powerless.
* DENIED

or this:

*  Call buddy at BigCorp and mention you need a job
* He tells his manager that you're good and available.  Manager says OK, we'll give him a try, and maybe gives a test interview.
* HR says "Fark you, all hiring goes through us"
* DENIED

or this:

* Get interview
* Ace interview
* DENIED
* Company hires H-1B saying "No qualified Americans"

/To fix the last, give the Visa to the employee.  Company can sponsor, but the worker shouldn't be forced to be tied to the company.


I work for a particular BigCorp, and I agree that HR is like the "Don" with the amount of power they have.

I first applied online through Monster, didn't hear back. Then talked to friend who got me in past hiring manager...HR probably accepted me because my boss was looking to move up the ladder and probably would've taken just about anyone.

BigCorp is hard to begin with, and if you're competing in an industry like IT/Engineering, even harder. Go in person. Eat at that cafeteria (or even nearby restaurant). Network, network, network. And if you have nothing left to lose, use your imagination to really have an impact. The people that are hiring are just that...people. Make yourself into more than a résumé.
 
2013-06-26 08:55:01 PM
But don't shiat on the boss' desk, advice I once saw here...not the imaginative impact I had in mind....
 
2013-06-26 09:07:20 PM
www.aceshowbiz.com
 
2013-06-26 09:08:02 PM
Well, that was the wrong farking thread.
 
2013-06-26 09:13:56 PM

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Well, that was the wrong farking thread.


Well, actually, horse face lady ties in, much like Madonna would. SJP plays the real life woman, in Sex and the City, who came to New York without much of a plan (like Madonna) and used her imagination, among other things, to make it big.
 
2013-06-26 09:13:57 PM

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Well, that was the wrong farking thread.


Not really...
 
2013-06-26 09:22:20 PM
Compulsory education should be completed before the age of 18 so that no one can make the boneheaded decision to drop out, and ruin their lives.
 
2013-06-26 09:23:30 PM

meyerkev: Witness99: Hmm, can this really not be shown to a prospective employer? Or could one think out of the box (resume) to solve the problem?

The problem is that hiring tends to go like this:

*Ship resume to HR.
*Lacks buzzwords and 10 years of experience in custom software made for the company 3 years ago.
*DENIED

or this:

* Call buddy at BigCorp and mention you need a job
* He tells his manager that you're good and available.  Manager says "Fark You" because manager is incompetent or powerless.
* DENIED

or this:

*  Call buddy at BigCorp and mention you need a job
* He tells his manager that you're good and available.  Manager says OK, we'll give him a try, and maybe gives a test interview.
* HR says "Fark you, all hiring goes through us"
* DENIED


or this:

* Get interview
* Ace interview
* DENIED
* Company hires H-1B saying "No qualified Americans"

/To fix the last, give the Visa to the employee.  Company can sponsor, but the worker shouldn't be forced to be tied to the company.


Had this one happen at Big Bank. When I worked for Big Bank I had a friend who was the manager of a department that supported this particular banking app. So we were talking one day at lunch and he mentioned that they were hiring 8 more people. So I mentioned to him that I had a friend who was just laid off and he told me to shoot his resume over to him, he would look it over and if he liked it he would send it up to the recruiter to set up an interview. So we go ahead and do this and he let me know that he sent the resume on to the recruiter to set up the interview. The next week he comes to me and says that the recruiter won't give him an interview because they claim he isn't qualified. It didn't matter that the manager wanted to get him in for a sit down to feel him out.
 
2013-06-26 09:31:00 PM

ongbok: meyerkev: Witness99: Hmm, can this really not be shown to a prospective employer? Or could one think out of the box (resume) to solve the problem?

The problem is that hiring tends to go like this:

*Ship resume to HR.
*Lacks buzzwords and 10 years of experience in custom software made for the company 3 years ago.
*DENIED

or this:

* Call buddy at BigCorp and mention you need a job
* He tells his manager that you're good and available.  Manager says "Fark You" because manager is incompetent or powerless.
* DENIED

or this:

*  Call buddy at BigCorp and mention you need a job
* He tells his manager that you're good and available.  Manager says OK, we'll give him a try, and maybe gives a test interview.
* HR says "Fark you, all hiring goes through us"
* DENIED

or this:

* Get interview
* Ace interview
* DENIED
* Company hires H-1B saying "No qualified Americans"

/To fix the last, give the Visa to the employee.  Company can sponsor, but the worker shouldn't be forced to be tied to the company.

Had this one happen at Big Bank. When I worked for Big Bank I had a friend who was the manager of a department that supported this particular banking app. So we were talking one day at lunch and he mentioned that they were hiring 8 more people. So I mentioned to him that I had a friend who was just laid off and he told me to shoot his resume over to him, he would look it over and if he liked it he would send it up to the recruiter to set up an interview. So we go ahead and do this and he let me know that he sent the resume on to the recruiter to set up the interview. The next week he comes to me and says that the recruiter won't give him an interview because they claim he isn't qualified. It didn't matter that the manager wanted to get him in for a sit down to feel him out.


This is what I'm trying to tell you. Resumes mean little in some corporate situations. You really have to stand out and TAKE that job. We get thousands of resumes. Recruiters, hiring managers and HR are looking for the rare person who gets this. Think of it as "the mouse who looks up." (My mom was a biochemist, and used to tell me that some mice in her care used to look up, wonder what was beyond the barrier, even try to escape). That is what BigCorp is looking for, and you have to prove yourself. It never stops
 
2013-06-26 09:43:34 PM

iheartscotch: blatz514: A lot of kids go to high school for 5 years.  They're called idiots.

Anymore, you need a act of congress to hold a kid back in school; most public schools choose to either pass the buck or "encourage" the student in question to drop out.

/ frankly, school isn't for everybody. If it were up to me, I'd allow 16 yearolds to drop out; get the kids that don't want to learn out of the classroom.


You should have been held back.
 
2013-06-26 10:10:08 PM
Once upon a time, if you chose to go to a public university, there was virtually no tuition (just room and board).  It was a good system.  As long as you made significant academic progress you could go to school without mortgaging your future.
 
2013-06-26 10:16:33 PM

Keeve: A lot of people take 7 years to graduate.


They're called doctors
 
2013-06-26 10:16:59 PM

Old enough to know better: Just make the fifth year optional. Kinds who don't give a damn can just graduate their 4th year with a basic diploma. While the students who are actually there to learn, or want go on to college can stick around for that fifth year as sort of a 'college prep'.  Of course they'd have to maintain a certain GPA to be allowed to stay.


You're talking about junior college, just free.

You're not going to sell anyone on paying for extra classes for the subset of kids who want to go to college but can't swing it after four years of access to college prep.
 
2013-06-26 10:55:48 PM

Witness99: baufan2005: Witness99: High school is a waste of time on many levels. Get your GED or state approved high school proficiency exam by 15, then save yourself a load of money working and going to cheap junior/community college the first two years, then transfer to a four year university and graduate. That last part is all your employer will care about. Ta-da!

Or just print up your own diploma to carry with you to job interviews. :)

Yeah except background checks, which any desirable job will perform. You made me think of what used to be referred to as "online diploma mills", as they were referred to 10-15 years ago. Now, just like Match.com, the stigma is gone. If I were 18 I'd go for online education now. I think the era of brick and mortar institutions will die out in my lifetime, so much that I cashed out my pension at the university I used to work at. Don't think the money will be there in 30 years from now.


Actually you would be surprised.  The whole thing is to blanket companies with your application and fake diploma.  Do like 50 of them and I guarantee you will find one that doesn't do a background check.  You won't be a millionaire but you still can beat the system.
 
2013-06-26 11:16:15 PM

baufan2005: Witness99: baufan2005: Witness99: High school is a waste of time on many levels. Get your GED or state approved high school proficiency exam by 15, then save yourself a load of money working and going to cheap junior/community college the first two years, then transfer to a four year university and graduate. That last part is all your employer will care about. Ta-da!

Or just print up your own diploma to carry with you to job interviews. :)

Yeah except background checks, which any desirable job will perform. You made me think of what used to be referred to as "online diploma mills", as they were referred to 10-15 years ago. Now, just like Match.com, the stigma is gone. If I were 18 I'd go for online education now. I think the era of brick and mortar institutions will die out in my lifetime, so much that I cashed out my pension at the university I used to work at. Don't think the money will be there in 30 years from now.

Actually you would be surprised.  The whole thing is to blanket companies with your application and fake diploma.  Do like 50 of them and I guarantee you will find one that doesn't do a background check.  You won't be a millionaire but you still can beat the system.


I have a relative who pulled that off 40 years ago, very successfully. I bet you're right that even today, there might be some that don't check. Think of the learning in a field you could do on your own, on the free Internet. Damn, I should have thought of that.
 
2013-06-26 11:41:32 PM

Jaymark108: I wasn't bored in high school, but then I took as many AP and Honors classes as I felt I could stomach.  Not to mention creative writing and acting electives.

I liked college too.  Maybe I was a strange adolescent.


I'm thinking you were an AW
 
2013-06-27 12:19:37 AM
Batshiat crazy.  An idea that only the helicopter generation could love.
 
2013-06-27 11:57:20 AM

Witness99: baufan2005: Witness99: baufan2005: Witness99: High school is a waste of time on many levels. Get your GED or state approved high school proficiency exam by 15, then save yourself a load of money working and going to cheap junior/community college the first two years, then transfer to a four year university and graduate. That last part is all your employer will care about. Ta-da!

Or just print up your own diploma to carry with you to job interviews. :)

Yeah except background checks, which any desirable job will perform. You made me think of what used to be referred to as "online diploma mills", as they were referred to 10-15 years ago. Now, just like Match.com, the stigma is gone. If I were 18 I'd go for online education now. I think the era of brick and mortar institutions will die out in my lifetime, so much that I cashed out my pension at the university I used to work at. Don't think the money will be there in 30 years from now.

Actually you would be surprised.  The whole thing is to blanket companies with your application and fake diploma.  Do like 50 of them and I guarantee you will find one that doesn't do a background check.  You won't be a millionaire but you still can beat the system.

I have a relative who pulled that off 40 years ago, very successfully. I bet you're right that even today, there might be some that don't check. Think of the learning in a field you could do on your own, on the free Internet. Damn, I should have thought of that.


I just found out my company never checks resumes.  They ran into so many problems with liars they gave up.

/Works in advertising.
 
2013-06-27 01:22:40 PM
I think it would be better to have them go 2 years, spend 2 years doing manual labor, and then finish up their last two.  Might give them some motivation and make them think about where they really want to end up.
 
2013-06-27 01:26:07 PM

Jument: AgentKGB: Does Ontario still have Grade 13?

No, not for many years now.

CSB: I was actually in the final year of Grade 13 in Ontario. I turned out ok. It was nice being able to legally drink the first day of university.


CSB:  I was in the double cohort with you, as a Grade 12.  On my last day of high school calculus, the teacher says to us "of course, the Grade 13s who wind up in math, science, engineering don't thank me for teaching them differentiation, they thank me for teaching them integration... which isn't in your curriculum anymore.  Good luck."

Of course, all that meant was the first half of 1st year calculus was review instead of the whole thing.
 
2013-06-27 03:17:48 PM
We need a three track school system, one for university bound students, one for trade school, and one for the "special needs" kids some who are window lickers and some just waiting to get into the prision system.
 
2013-06-27 04:08:56 PM

Gabrielmot: Keeve: A lot of people take 7 years to graduate.

CSB

I recently interviewed a candidate who wrote on his resume his start and end dates for his bachelors degree in basketweaving... It took him 7 years.

Then I cross referenced his LinkedIn profile and found out he had failed to mention he went to community college first for 2 years before going to this "university" (both while not working except at one student aid job for about 6 months) and lied about the dates, meaning he spent 8 years on that bachelors after community college.

-Total of 10 years to get a BS in basketweaving from dipshiat "university".

My boss told me his "friend" gave him this resume, so he wanted to interview him anyway. Turns out his "friend" was one of our vendors, and this guy had worked for his "friend" at another company.

When confronted with this my boss's face went white and said, "I didn't know that, he just handed me his resume". -This is known as a conflict of interest.

So we go on to interview the guy. After an hour and a half of this guy rambling on about every thing under the sun *except* his qualifications (and drawing a picture of a PC when asked to describe how to create an LPAR), we were done. I asked my boss what he thought... He thought it went *well*.

I then mentioned to him... "You *do* realize he didn't answer a single technical question I gave him correctly right?"

"Oh."

FFS if you are in a position to hire someone in IT for a management position, please make sure they at least have a BS in Computer Science. No, you *can't* manage technical people if you can't understand the work. -Anyone who thinks they can is a colossal idiot and is going to cost you *mountains* of money and pain.


keep pointing out to the boss what a colossal idiot  he is. you'll go far! he's the boss for a reason, good or bad. and your something he'll scrape off his shoe.
/shut you mouth and know your role.
 
2013-06-27 04:23:41 PM

one-in-the-chamber: keep pointing out to the boss what a colossal idiot  he is. you'll go far! he's the boss for a reason, good or bad. and your something he'll scrape off his shoe.
/shut you mouth and know your role.


+1
 
2013-06-27 10:44:33 PM

Witness99: meyerkev: Witness99: Hmm, can this really not be shown to a prospective employer? Or could one think out of the box (resume) to solve the problem?

The problem is that hiring tends to go like this:

*Ship resume to HR.
*Lacks buzzwords and 10 years of experience in custom software made for the company 3 years ago.
*DENIED

or this:

* Call buddy at BigCorp and mention you need a job
* He tells his manager that you're good and available.  Manager says "Fark You" because manager is incompetent or powerless.
* DENIED

or this:

*  Call buddy at BigCorp and mention you need a job
* He tells his manager that you're good and available.  Manager says OK, we'll give him a try, and maybe gives a test interview.
* HR says "Fark you, all hiring goes through us"
* DENIED

or this:

* Get interview
* Ace interview
* DENIED
* Company hires H-1B saying "No qualified Americans"

/To fix the last, give the Visa to the employee.  Company can sponsor, but the worker shouldn't be forced to be tied to the company.

I work for a particular BigCorp, and I agree that HR is like the "Don" with the amount of power they have.

I first applied online through Monster, didn't hear back. Then talked to friend who got me in past hiring manager...HR probably accepted me because my boss was looking to move up the ladder and probably would've taken just about anyone.

BigCorp is hard to begin with, and if you're competing in an industry like IT/Engineering, even harder. Go in person. Eat at that cafeteria (or even nearby restaurant). Network, network, network. And if you have nothing left to lose, use your imagination to really have an impact. The people that are hiring are just that...people. Make yourself into more than a résumé.


To those that don't get it bigcorp is HP
 
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