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(BBC)   United Kingdom to Pamela Geller; "Go be racist somewhere else"   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 122
    More: Cool, Pamela Geller, English Defence League, Woolwich, Jihad Watch, Magna Carta, select committees  
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3717 clicks; posted to Politics » on 26 Jun 2013 at 3:17 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-26 10:24:50 PM

Diogenes: Marcus Aurelius: If only we had a law in the US covering hateful bigotry.

I like our ways better, frankly.  It's messier, but in the end I think is more honest.

That said:  Their country, their rules.


I don't knowe about that. It is as if Americans are allowed to be critical thinkers, but critical thinking can't have any power. So white supremacy can maintain all the power it wants to, especially in government and media, and being passed from generation to generation, but critical thinking has no leverage at all to be passed along, and critical thinkers look weak because they have nothing to back themselves up with. Racism is a big pile of ad hominems and red herrings, but nobody can stand up to it. All Americans can do is talk, talk talk, while racists talk, pass it on, ingrain it in legislation, occupy sidewalks, scream at funerals, tie up courts, and always always always control the conversation - any conversation. Meanwhile, critical thinkers who want a rational, important and serious conversation on any topic, can't create that space when racists feel like talking OR, if somehow they do, they can't maintain it if a racist wants to happen upon the scene.

At least that is what it looks like most of the time.
 
2013-06-27 05:52:24 AM

Diogenes: Marcus Aurelius: If only we had a law in the US covering hateful bigotry.

I like our ways better, frankly.  It's messier, but in the end I think is more honest.


Tariq Ramadan facepalms.
 
2013-06-27 06:00:12 AM

Ow! That was my feelings!: A thread like this is great for differentiating between Liberals and Progressives. A true liberal type will uphold the rights of douchebags to speak their minds because they understand such tolerance is necessary to preserve their own free speech rights. Progressives don't give a fark, they just want the government to step on the neck of anyone that offends them, no matter the cost.


Nobody in this story is prevented from speaking their minds, and entering a foreign country is not a right.
 
2013-06-27 06:42:19 AM

Dancin_In_Anson: I also justify your desire to oppress these people in the same way.


Not getting to enter a foreign country is an oppression?

jjorsett: On both of their blogs the pair called their bans from entering the UK "a striking blow against freedom" and said the "the nation that gave the world the Magna Carta is dead".

It also gave us 1984 and the concept of Thought Crime. Looks like that part's in robust health.


Because they didn't let in a couple of bigots for a white power rally?
 
2013-06-27 07:58:06 AM
104 posts in and no "Who?!?" comment? You're slipping, Fark.

Oh, and Who?!?
 
2013-06-27 08:05:35 AM

Halli: Not getting to enter a foreign country is an oppression?


Absolutely.

Halli: Because they didn't let in a couple of bigots for a white power rally?


You need to click my take 20 link above as well.
 
2013-06-27 08:20:36 AM

Halli: Dancin_In_Anson: I also justify your desire to oppress these people in the same way.

Not getting to enter a foreign country is an oppression?

jjorsett: On both of their blogs the pair called their bans from entering the UK "a striking blow against freedom" and said the "the nation that gave the world the Magna Carta is dead".

It also gave us 1984 and the concept of Thought Crime. Looks like that part's in robust health.

Because they didn't let in a couple of bigots for a white power rally?


Exactly. When your opinions get you targeted by government, you've entered the realm of 1984. Long live Big Brother!
 
2013-06-27 08:40:46 AM

Dancin_In_Anson: Absolutely.


Haha no.

Dancin_In_Anson: You need to click my take 20 link above as well.


UK is under no obligation to let people enter freely. Free speech is good but letting foreign nationals in to speak at a white power rally is something a country should have some control over. The whole UK racism criminal offense thing is pretty bad though.

jjorsett: Exactly. When your opinions get you targeted by government, you've entered the realm of 1984. Long live Big Brother!


1984 ooga booga.
 
2013-06-27 08:41:14 AM

jjorsett: Halli: Dancin_In_Anson: I also justify your desire to oppress these people in the same way.

Not getting to enter a foreign country is an oppression?

jjorsett: On both of their blogs the pair called their bans from entering the UK "a striking blow against freedom" and said the "the nation that gave the world the Magna Carta is dead".

It also gave us 1984 and the concept of Thought Crime. Looks like that part's in robust health.

Because they didn't let in a couple of bigots for a white power rally?

Exactly. When your opinions get you targeted by government, you've entered the realm of 1984. Long live Big Brother!


So you are against any government action against people who believe and expressed that america is the great satan and the biggest evil in the world and God is against everything America stands for....let's let those guys in, jjorsett is all for it!
 
2013-06-27 09:40:50 AM

Halli: Haha no.


Haha yes. When authority refuses to allow the dissemination of ideas because those ideas are officially deemed "not conducive to the public good", they are oppressing not just the ideas but those who hold them.

Halli: Free speech is good


You don't believe that for one second you farking fascist.
 
2013-06-27 10:16:08 AM

Dancin_In_Anson: Haha yes. When authority refuses to allow the dissemination of ideas because those ideas are officially deemed "not conducive to the public good", they are oppressing not just the ideas but those who hold them.


They aren't banning the EDL white power conference. They just aren't letting two foreign nationals in to speak there. Why exactly can't a sovereign nation control their borders like how they choose?

Dancin_In_Anson: You don't believe that for one second you farking fascist.


Well I believe people can have childish tantrum on the internet. So go right ahead.
 
2013-06-27 10:31:12 AM

Halli: They aren't banning the EDL white power conference. They just aren't letting two foreign nationals in to speak there. Why exactly can't a sovereign nation control their borders like how they choose?


They are more than welcome to close their borders...read the article again:

"We condemn all those whose behaviours and views run counter to our shared values and will not stand for extremism in any form."

"...The UK should never become a stage for inflammatory speakers who promote hate."


Oppression of ideas. What a smashing idea.
 
2013-06-27 10:33:25 AM

Dancin_In_Anson: Haha yes. When authority refuses to allow the dissemination of ideas because those ideas are officially deemed "not conducive to the public good", they are oppressing not just the ideas but those who hold them.


So, for example, it's oppression to disallow false advertising, or bogus nutritional labels?
 
2013-06-27 10:35:41 AM

Dancin_In_Anson: Halli: They aren't banning the EDL white power conference. They just aren't letting two foreign nationals in to speak there. Why exactly can't a sovereign nation control their borders like how they choose?

They are more than welcome to close their borders...read the article again:

"We condemn all those whose behaviours and views run counter to our shared values and will not stand for extremism in any form."

"...The UK should never become a stage for inflammatory speakers who promote hate."

Oppression of ideas. What a smashing idea.


Again this is about foreign nationals coming in. Have they banned the whole EDL thing?
 
2013-06-27 11:08:09 AM

jjorsett: Exactly. When your opinions get you targeted by government, you've entered the realm of 1984. Long live Big Brother!


"When you buy a canary, you've entered the realm of Jurassic Park."

"When you check into a hotel, you've entered the realm of The Shining."

Seriously, are we talking about 1984 the actual novel, or just the vague dippy impression of 1984 that everyone has from hearing other people say vague dippy things about 1984?  They won't print my letter to the editor?!  How Orwellian!  That's just like 1984, where everyone is continually monitored by cameras in their homes and the hero is arrested by secret police and has his face strapped to a rat cage before they electrocute him.

Pretty much every country has laws against selected modes of speech, like disinformation, incitement, or libel.   None of this is like 1984, because 1984 is not some dippy little novel about a government censoring disinformation, incitement, or libel.  This is like 1984 in the trivial sense that they both involve a government.

Nine times out of ten, invoking 1984 is an instant losing argument.  It just makes people think that you haven't actually read the book, and that you have a huge persecution complex.
 
2013-06-27 11:25:47 AM
I  haven't read the thread yet - but I'm pretty sure someone will complain here about her first amendment rights being trampled...

/don't disappoint me
//it's always good for a laugh
 
2013-06-27 12:01:14 PM
It's only words! Words don't hurt nobody!

/The words the UK are using are "stay," "the," "fark," and "away."
 
2013-06-27 02:50:08 PM

Dancin_In_Anson: Halli: Not getting to enter a foreign country is an oppression?

Absolutely.


It's worth pointing out that according the UN declaration of human rights, everyone has (or should have) the right to travel within a country (13-1) and to leave a country (13-2).  There is no recognized human right to enter a country, because countries obviously have the power to restrict entry.

So no, I'd have to say that restricting entry to foreigners is not by itself oppression, although there are circumstances where it can be pretty oppressive, for example blocking entry to someone with a career/residence/family within the country.  That's obviously not the case here, however.
 
2013-06-27 02:57:22 PM

Halli: Again this is about foreign nationals coming in.


Read it again:

"...The UK should never become a stage for inflammatory speakers who promote hate."

What do you suppose the end game is for this MP? Probably the same as yours.
 
2013-06-27 04:57:45 PM

Dancin_In_Anson: Halli: Again this is about foreign nationals coming in.

Read it again:

"...The UK should never become a stage for inflammatory speakers who promote hate."

What do you suppose the end game is for this MP? Probably the same as yours.


Oh do tell now.
 
2013-06-27 05:11:10 PM

Halli: Oh do tell now.


Oh you would do anything possible to keep these people from "spreading their hate" and you goddamn well know it.
 
2013-06-27 05:22:28 PM

Dancin_In_Anson: Halli: Oh do tell now.

Oh you would do anything possible to keep these people from "spreading their hate" and you goddamn well know it.


I would? I learn something new about myself on the internet every day. How far would I be willing to go?
 
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