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(Yahoo)   Lebron calls his shot with 27.9 seconds left in game 7 against the Spurs an "MJ moment." Too bad it's not really an MJ moment because Lebron didn't need to push off   (sports.yahoo.com) divider line 133
    More: Cool, LeBron James, spur, Michael Jordan, Sports Illustrated, Shane Battier, Larry O'Brien Trophy, jumper, clinching  
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1460 clicks; posted to Sports » on 26 Jun 2013 at 2:26 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-26 04:01:41 PM

Gunny Highway: Does this have anything to do with the addition of zone defense? (I still struggle with NBA defense and evaluation players as defenders)


That pretty much has everything to do with it, and when people wonder why LeBron can't dominate the offensive end like Jordan did, they're pretty much exposing the fact they know nothing about the game and the rule changes.
 
2013-06-26 04:02:29 PM

babysealclubber: Is this the thread where I come in and pretend that Michael Jordan is the greatest ever and in no way, shape, or form have we had 2 players since he retired who have been just as good if not better?


It's too late, you've been beat to it.
 
2013-06-26 04:03:16 PM

Mike_LowELL: CastorTroy: So did I. I never saw MJ play all 5 spots at an NBA level.
 

Um, ok.  Jordan played Olajuwon bucket for bucket at the center position when the Bulls beat the Rockets in the '94 and '95 Finals.  Even Hakeem was forced to admit that "Jordan's heart is just so big and he simply out-willed me."  But have fun with your revisionist history.  Dude wins twelve championships in ten years and people still doubt the dude.


Is his will to win as big as Tebow's?
 
2013-06-26 04:08:31 PM

CastorTroy: I never saw MJ play all 5 spots at an NBA level.


So if you're more versitile you're a better player?  And Magic "jumping center" for one game is totally over-rated.  Just look at their numbers, it's not close.

The Banana Thug: LBJ is posting better all-around numbers than MJ



Through to seasons

MJ: 32.2 ppg, 51% FG; 30% 3pt; 5.5 Ast; 5.9 Reb; 2.5 Stl; 29.6 Per
LBJ: 25.0 ppg; 49% FG; 33% 3pt; 6.9 ASt; 7.3 Rb; 1.7 Stl; 27.6 Per

You can say similar all-around numbers, but you can't argue better.
 
2013-06-26 04:09:24 PM
Dan LeBatard's post game 7 rant was as epic as I hoped.
 
2013-06-26 04:10:19 PM

Mike_LowELL: But have fun with your revisionist history.


I LOL'd at Bulls-Rockets in the Finals.
 
2013-06-26 04:10:29 PM

MugzyBrown: Through to seasons

MJ: 32.2 ppg, 51% FG; 30% 3pt; 5.5 Ast; 5.9 Reb; 2.5 Stl; 29.6 Per
LBJ: 25.0 ppg; 49% FG; 33% 3pt; 6.9 ASt; 7.3 Rb; 1.7 Stl; 27.6 Per


Where are the rebounds per game? Not to mention, MJ didn't have to play against zones.
 
2013-06-26 04:11:25 PM

Mike_LowELL: That pretty much has everything to do with it, and when people wonder why LeBron can't dominate the offensive end like Jordan did, they're pretty much exposing the fact they know nothing about the game and the rule changes.


I'm willing to bet maybe half the people who consider Jordan the best player ever by some ridiculously large metric are basically casual basketball fans who found Jordan's game palatable because of his ability to take a game over late (and their impressive championship runs meant they were on TV all the damn time), yet at the same time they'll deride most basketball players as "selfish" despite the fact we're playing in perhaps the least selfish era of professional basketball ever because of the rule changes and schemes now played on the defensive end.

So, "hero ball" is cool when MJ did it, but not for anyone else.

/I don't "disagree" with the proposition that MJ is the best ever; it's just a needless, fruitless argument I don't see the point spending time with.
 
2013-06-26 04:12:53 PM

babysealclubber: Where are the rebounds per game? Not to mention, MJ didn't have to play against zones.


They're listed under Rebs

And MJ had to play against teams with real centers and hand-checking.
 
2013-06-26 04:16:14 PM
25.media.tumblr.com

Everyone remembers Jordan as being the greatest ever because they were told to remember Jordan as being the greatest ever.
 
2013-06-26 04:16:40 PM
The turning point in LBJ's legacy: Link
 
2013-06-26 04:16:50 PM

This Looks Fun: skinink: Unlike LeBron, Jordan didn't feel the need to ditch Chicago to win a championship elsewhere. They built around him. And MJ had no problem being The Man on his team. LeBron had to run off and join the superfriends to get his trophies. Couldn't take the spotlight so much.

Exactly. Cleveland did not, so they lost LeBron. Minnesota did not, so they lost KG. Orlando did not so they lost Shaq. Shaq wasn't good because he went to a team that wanted to win? KG had no talent because he wasn't the only guy on the team with talent? Some play for money, other play for legacy. Ask Barkley and Marino how good it feels to have been loyal... This is a silly argument.


Cleveland had the best regular season record in the NBA during LeBron's last year there. Then he got his ass handed to him in the playoffs. Instead of getting angrier and say to himself, "not only is Cleveland going to have the best regular season record again next year, I will lead us to a championship", he went ahead and took the easier way out to get his rings with the help of two other future hall of famers.

There is no way Bird would have joined the Lakers if Boston kept losing to the Lakers (same thing with Magic). There is no way Jordan would have joined the Piston if Detroit kept beating Chicago in the Eastern finals. I truly don't think those guys would be proud of winning a ring that way.
 
2013-06-26 04:17:45 PM

skinink: Unlike LeBron, Jordan didn't feel the need to ditch Chicago to win a championship elsewhere. They built around him. And MJ had no problem being The Man on his team. LeBron had to run off and join the superfriends to get his trophies. Couldn't take the spotlight so much.


THIS

And I don't have as much of a problem with him going to Miami (he did take less money to do so, showing his desire to win,) but he had to do it with an hourlong special devoted to himself ("The Decision.")

And what kind of arrogant prick gets a three inch high tattoo of "CHOSEN 1" across his back?

And what kind of douchebag stops wearing #23 out of deference to Michael but has to add "if I'm not going to wear it, I don't think anyone else should either."

And what kind of asshole says after a Finals loss "All the people that were rooting for me to fail, at the end of the day, tomorrow they have to wake up and have the same life that (they had) before they woke up today?"

Anyway, my earlier post was that MJ never failed in the Finals.  Lebron already has...twice.  And both times, it was largely because he shrank from the pressure when it counted.

Not dismissing his basketball skills in today's game, just don't like him.
 
2013-06-26 04:18:36 PM

Killer Cars: So, "hero ball" is cool when MJ did it, but not for anyone else.


You can't compare LeBron to MJ because they aren't the same player, mentally.  Jordan was a killer who would have shoved his mother down a flight of stairs to win.  LeBron isn't quite wired that way.  His game is a bit of a Magic/MJ combo, which isn't so bad really.
 
2013-06-26 04:20:30 PM

chimp_ninja: hugram: I grew up in LA in the 80's... and even I agree that MJ > Magic... in fact, Bird > Magic.

However, I saw a documentary which proved that Dr. J. regularly beat Larry Bird one on one.

[cdn2-b.examiner.com image 571x394]


I don't know about that... I think they both beat up each other equally...
dimemag.com
 
2013-06-26 04:23:01 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: skinink: Unlike LeBron, Jordan didn't feel the need to ditch Chicago to win a championship elsewhere. They built around him. And MJ had no problem being The Man on his team. LeBron had to run off and join the superfriends to get his trophies. Couldn't take the spotlight so much.

THIS

And I don't have as much of a problem with him going to Miami (he did take less money to do so, showing his desire to win,) but he had to do it with an hourlong special devoted to himself ("The Decision.")

And what kind of arrogant prick gets a three inch high tattoo of "CHOSEN 1" across his back?

And what kind of douchebag stops wearing #23 out of deference to Michael but has to add "if I'm not going to wear it, I don't think anyone else should either."

And what kind of asshole says after a Finals loss "All the people that were rooting for me to fail, at the end of the day, tomorrow they have to wake up and have the same life that (they had) before they woke up today?"

Anyway, my earlier post was that MJ never failed in the Finals.  Lebron already has...twice.  And both times, it was largely because he shrank from the pressure when it counted.

Not dismissing his basketball skills in today's game, just don't like him.


You could have saved time and just put "I don't like him because reasons".

/an arrogant professional athlete? Well I never, where is my fainting couch?
//The Decision: all about himself except that couple of million that went to the kids
///I'm going to say a truthful asshole says that? Unless your life drastically improved after he lost? Yeah, didn't think so.
 
2013-06-26 04:24:00 PM

hugram: chimp_ninja: hugram: I grew up in LA in the 80's... and even I agree that MJ > Magic... in fact, Bird > Magic.

However, I saw a documentary which proved that Dr. J. regularly beat Larry Bird one on one.

[cdn2-b.examiner.com image 571x394]

I don't know about that... I think they both beat up each other equally...
[dimemag.com image 400x318]


I remember seeing that picture in the paper the next day.  My two favorite players, it rocked my world.  Up was down, wet was dry.  I didn't know what to believe anymore.
 
2013-06-26 04:25:38 PM

Yanks_RSJ: Killer Cars: So, "hero ball" is cool when MJ did it, but not for anyone else.

You can't compare LeBron to MJ because they aren't the same player, mentally.  Jordan was a killer who would have shoved his mother down a flight of stairs to win.  LeBron isn't quite wired that way.  His game is a bit of a Magic/MJ combo, which isn't so bad really.


Correct. Which is why LeBron isn't like MJ. Kobe is like MJ.
 
2013-06-26 04:26:12 PM

CastorTroy: hugram: chimp_ninja: hugram: I grew up in LA in the 80's... and even I agree that MJ > Magic... in fact, Bird > Magic.

However, I saw a documentary which proved that Dr. J. regularly beat Larry Bird one on one.

[cdn2-b.examiner.com image 571x394]

I don't know about that... I think they both beat up each other equally...
[dimemag.com image 400x318]

I remember seeing that picture in the paper the next day.  My two favorite players, it rocked my world.  Up was down, wet was dry.  I didn't know what to believe anymore.


Yup... me too. I remember Bird's explanation on why the fight happened was classic Bird... "The score was 42 to 6 in my favor".
 
2013-06-26 04:28:12 PM

js34603: Kobe is like MJ


Kobe tries to be like MJ.  He fails though.
 
2013-06-26 04:28:33 PM

hugram: There is no way Bird would have joined the Lakers if Boston kept losing to the Lakers (same thing with Magic). There is no way Jordan would have joined the Piston if Detroit kept beating Chicago in the Eastern finals. I truly don't think those guys would be proud of winning a ring that way.


This stupid hypothetical keeps getting repeated by people who don't understand that free agency didn't even exist until Jordan was several years into his 2nd NBA contract and an NBA champion.

Bird wouldn't have joined the Lakers because the Celtics front office surrounded him with Hall of Famers through a variety of wise trade maneuvers.  He won a championship in his 2nd NBA season with Parish, McHale, Cedric Maxwell and Tiny Archibald as his supporting cast - all of whom were tremendous players.

Magic wouldn't have joined the Celtics because he was drafted #2 overall by a team that had a hall of fame center in his prime.  He won the NBA title his rookie year and 3rd season with Kareem and Jamaal Wilkes, then again in 1985, 87 and 88 with Kareem and James Worthy plus tons of quality depth.
 
2013-06-26 04:37:31 PM
Michael Jordan is the greatest and purest athlete of all time and anyone who says otherwise wasn't there to witness it. Jordan is one of the most humble players to ever touch a basketball. Jordan also won every game that mattered without any star power around him and never once, ONCE, choked.

My opinion has nothing to do with nostalgia.
 
2013-06-26 04:43:18 PM
Screw MJ.

I'm still waiting for Lebron to start at Center in a Finals game, score 42 points, pull down 15 rebounds and dish 7 rebounds.  Not saying he could never do it, but it's a tall order.

Oh, and do it at the age of 20 as a rookie
 
2013-06-26 04:46:38 PM

CastorTroy: [25.media.tumblr.com image 350x228]

Everyone remembers Jordan as being the greatest ever because they were told to remember Jordan as being the greatest ever.


That is mostly because basketball was a "B" grade sport until he arrived - without him it is highly unlikely the NBA would have risen so quickly - the sport owes him everything - that is why he should always be considered the best - all these younger players get the contracts and endorsements they do now because of him.

Magic and Larry was good - but did not turn on the world the way MJ did - they also both had small shoe contracts, but MJ got his own brand.
 
2013-06-26 04:48:06 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: Screw MJ.

I'm still waiting for Lebron to start at Center in a Finals game, score 42 points, pull down 15 rebounds and dish 7 rebound assists.  Not saying he could never do it, but it's a tall order.

Oh, and do it at the age of 20 as a rookie


FTFM

babysealclubber: Michael Jordan is the greatest and purest athlete of all time


No. Bo Jackson, Don Sanders and several others would argue.  Mentally, he may have been, although Kobe is as tough mentally but not as skilled athletically as MJ.
 
2013-06-26 04:49:11 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: AdolfOliverPanties: Screw MJ.

I'm still waiting for Lebron to start at Center in a Finals game, score 42 points, pull down 15 rebounds and dish 7 rebound assists.  Not saying he could never do it, but it's a tall order.

Oh, and do it at the age of 20 as a rookie

FTFM

babysealclubber: Michael Jordan is the greatest and purest athlete of all time

No. Bo Jackson, Deon Sanders and several others would argue.  Mentally, he may have been, although Kobe is as tough mentally but not as skilled athletically as MJ.


FTFM
 
2013-06-26 04:50:06 PM
AdolfOliverPanties:
Anyway, my earlier post was that MJ never failed in the Finals.  Lebron already has...twice.  And both times, it was largely because he shrank from the pressure when it counted.

Not dismissing his basketball skills in today's game, just don't like him.


To be fair, most athletes are douchebags. Michael Jordan is a LEGENDARY douche. Just go watch his hall of fame speech. I liken it to an article I read about Josh Beckett (who I've met, and is a douche)... athletes have to believe that they're the best in order to have that drive to succeed. They have to hurt when they fail, so they're motivated to do better.

As far as LeBron's "failings" go, I don't think you can pin 2007 on him entirely. His second best player on that team was probably Zydrunus Ilgauskus. That was a team paying money for Scot Pollard, David Wesley, Damon Jones and Eric Snow to occupy spots on the roster. All of them would retire after that season or after the next season. That team was not very good.

Unrelated... as awful as *that* team was, I do think that the team he left in 2010 was better than people suggest. While nobody was a second "star", I think that team had arguably the deepest bench in the league and could match up with just about everyone. It wasn't nearly as good of a team as he joined, and it would have gotten really bad really soon anyway (Shaq and Z leaving, Parker getting old, Jamison getting even worse, etc.) but it was *much* improved over the 2007 version.
 
2013-06-26 04:52:52 PM

downstairs: Actually, they were 77 seconds away from forcing a game 7. But yeah, heartbreaking still.


drat, you are right.  my bad.  game 7 would have resulted.
 
2013-06-26 04:55:08 PM

rickythepenguin: downstairs: Actually, they were 77 seconds away from forcing a game 7. But yeah, heartbreaking still.

drat, you are right.  my bad.  game 7 would have resulted.


That f*cking game caused them to play the highlights of my alma mater's epic fail in the college hockey championship a few years ago.  I didn't need to see that again.
 
2013-06-26 05:04:54 PM

hugram: Cleveland had the best regular season record in the NBA during LeBron's last year there. Then he got his ass handed to him in the playoffs. Instead of getting angrier and say to himself, "not only is Cleveland going to have the best regular season record again next year, I will lead us to a championship", he went ahead and took the easier way out to get his rings with the help of two other future hall of famers.

There is no way Bird would have joined the Lakers if Boston kept losing to the Lakers (same thing with Magic). There is no way Jordan would have joined the Piston if Detroit kept beating Chicago in the Eastern finals. I truly don't think those guys would be proud of winning a ring that way.


I guess those comparisons make a lot of sense given that Jordan and Bird were surrounded with talent equivalent to LeBron in Cleveland. I would definitely say that the Rogues Gallery of Ilgauskas, Gooden, West, Wallace,  Szczerbiak, Smith, and Varejao are every bit the supporting cast that Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, and Kerr or Parish, McHale, and Walton were... In fact I would say that Cleveland did exactly what the Celtics and Bulls did, which completely validates your comparison.

/Not.
 
2013-06-26 05:05:18 PM

Yanks_RSJ: hugram: There is no way Bird would have joined the Lakers if Boston kept losing to the Lakers (same thing with Magic). There is no way Jordan would have joined the Piston if Detroit kept beating Chicago in the Eastern finals. I truly don't think those guys would be proud of winning a ring that way.

This stupid hypothetical keeps getting repeated by people who don't understand that free agency didn't even exist until Jordan was several years into his 2nd NBA contract and an NBA champion.

Bird wouldn't have joined the Lakers because the Celtics front office surrounded him with Hall of Famers through a variety of wise trade maneuvers.  He won a championship in his 2nd NBA season with Parish, McHale, Cedric Maxwell and Tiny Archibald as his supporting cast - all of whom were tremendous players.

Magic wouldn't have joined the Celtics because he was drafted #2 overall by a team that had a hall of fame center in his prime.  He won the NBA title his rookie year and 3rd season with Kareem and Jamaal Wilkes, then again in 1985, 87 and 88 with Kareem and James Worthy plus tons of quality depth.


QFT

I said this in a thread a few weeks back, I'll say it again. Jordan had the benefit of a front office in Chicago which was willing to expend the money/effort to win. The end result is that he was surrounded by talent (Pippen, Rodman, good role players like Kerr) and coached by one of the greatest (Jackson). Of course, the two seasons he took off for baseball show his importance to the team, but the Bulls were still a strong playoff contender without him. The front office in Cleveland showed a decided unwillingness to draft, trade for, or sign another good-to-great player to complement LeBron. His tenure in Cleveland was like MJ's tenure in Chicago before the pieces were in place (lose to the Bad Boy Pistons, lose to Bird's Celtics). Well, except for the '07 playoffs where through force of will on LeBron's part and a hot streak by a replacement level player (Gibson iirc) carried them to a Finals appearance (I actually had to look up the roster to even remember that guy's name). LeBron's free agency move (in conjunction with Bosh and Wade) was equivalent to the front office moves which Chicago made (and Cleveland consistently failed to make). So, all in all, it looks like LeBron might be "better" than MJ because he was able to get to an NBA Finals without the supporting cast whereas MJ only made it there after getting the supporting cast.
 
2013-06-26 05:05:39 PM

The Muthaship: That f*cking game caused them to play the highlights of my alma mater's epic fail in the college hockey championship a few years ago. I didn't need to see that again.



huh...what happened?  How many goals in how many seconds?
 
2013-06-26 05:07:23 PM

hugram: Cleveland had the best regular season record in the NBA during LeBron's last year there. Then he got his ass handed to him in the playoffs. Instead of getting angrier and say to himself, "not only is Cleveland going to have the best regular season record again next year, I will lead us to a championship", he went ahead and took the easier way out to get his rings with the help of two other future hall of famers.

There is no way Bird would have joined the Lakers if Boston kept losing to the Lakers (same thing with Magic). There is no way Jordan would have joined the Piston if Detroit kept beating Chicago in the Eastern finals. I truly don't think those guys would be proud of winning a ring that way.


I lived in Chicago during the Jordan years.  I very much remember talk of him leaving if he couldn't get a ring very soon.  Luckily, he did within 1-2 years of said rumors.

It could have been made up rumors, but knowing Jordan... I think he would have bolted.
 
2013-06-26 05:08:50 PM

This Looks Fun: hugram: Cleveland had the best regular season record in the NBA during LeBron's last year there. Then he got his ass handed to him in the playoffs. Instead of getting angrier and say to himself, "not only is Cleveland going to have the best regular season record again next year, I will lead us to a championship", he went ahead and took the easier way out to get his rings with the help of two other future hall of famers.

There is no way Bird would have joined the Lakers if Boston kept losing to the Lakers (same thing with Magic). There is no way Jordan would have joined the Piston if Detroit kept beating Chicago in the Eastern finals. I truly don't think those guys would be proud of winning a ring that way.

I guess those comparisons make a lot of sense given that Jordan and Bird were surrounded with talent equivalent to LeBron in Cleveland. I would definitely say that the Rogues Gallery of Ilgauskas, Gooden, West, Wallace,  Szczerbiak, Smith, and Varejao are every bit the supporting cast that Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, and Kerr or Parish, McHale, and Walton were... In fact I would say that Cleveland did exactly what the Celtics and Bulls did, which completely validates your comparison.

/Not.


I hate you. Beat me by a shot clock.
 
2013-06-26 05:09:18 PM
Or need a game 7.
 
2013-06-26 05:13:15 PM

hugram: This Looks Fun: skinink: Unlike LeBron, Jordan didn't feel the need to ditch Chicago to win a championship elsewhere. They built around him. And MJ had no problem being The Man on his team. LeBron had to run off and join the superfriends to get his trophies. Couldn't take the spotlight so much.

Exactly. Cleveland did not, so they lost LeBron. Minnesota did not, so they lost KG. Orlando did not so they lost Shaq. Shaq wasn't good because he went to a team that wanted to win? KG had no talent because he wasn't the only guy on the team with talent? Some play for money, other play for legacy. Ask Barkley and Marino how good it feels to have been loyal... This is a silly argument.

Cleveland had the best regular season record in the NBA during LeBron's last year there. Then he got his ass handed to him in the playoffs. Instead of getting angrier and say to himself, "not only is Cleveland going to have the best regular season record again next year, I will lead us to a championship", he went ahead and took the easier way out to get his rings with the help of two other future hall of famers.

There is no way Bird would have joined the Lakers if Boston kept losing to the Lakers (same thing with Magic). There is no way Jordan would have joined the Piston if Detroit kept beating Chicago in the Eastern finals. I truly don't think those guys would be proud of winning a ring that way.


You've got to be kidding me. Have we reached a Poe's law for LBJ?
 
2013-06-26 05:21:24 PM

Killer Cars: /I don't "disagree" with the proposition that MJ is the best ever; it's just a needless, fruitless argument I don't see the point spending time with.


You can make a case that any one of the elite-tier players--Jordan, Chamberlain, Magic, Bird, Russell, Kareem--is the GoaT.  And that's perfectly okay.  But it's much, much different to take your meager understanding of the game of basketball, combine it with the greatest marketing of any single athlete in American sports history, and conclude Jordan is the best, without exception.

bertor_vidas: Of course, the two seasons he took off for baseball show his importance to the team, but the Bulls were still a strong playoff contender without him.


Obligatory.

Jordan retired in October of 1993.  The critics predicted gloom and doom for the Bulls.  (I was one of these critics).  Some even declared that without Jordan, the Bulls wouldn't even make the playoffs.  After all, Jordan supposedly carried those stiffs to three titles, right?  Because Jordan waited so late to retire, the Bulls were not able to pick up an adequate starter in free agency.  They settled with Pete Myers from the CBA.   They were set up to fail.  Myers had a defensive reputation, but no where near that of Jordan, who had been named first-team all-defense 6 times and won the defensive player of the year award.  Furthermore, Myeres hadn't even played in the NBA for the last two years, and he never averaged more than 5 points per game.  How can you replace Jordan's 32 ppg and all-world defense with this guy?  The Bulls were set up to fail.

...

The first assumption was declared by nearly everybody.  Even Bulls coach Phil Jackson predicted a 15-game slip in his autobiography, Sacred Hoops.  He based this upon the retirement of superstars from the past.  Replacing Jordan with Myers should have been detrimental.  However, the Bulls only slipped 2 games: from 57-25 with Jordan in 1993 to 55-27 in 1994.  How could this be?  They should have fallen apart.  The answer is that Jordan simply wasn't as instrumental in taking the Bulls to another level as thought.  I'm not saying they could win a title without him.  He did make them marginally better, but not significantly better.


If the Bulls didn't get hosed on the Game 5 call against the Knicks, the Bulls probably made the '94 Finals anyway.
 
2013-06-26 05:25:39 PM

MugzyBrown: Ya know what made MJ more awesome than Kobe and LBJ (more than being a better player) ?

He wasn't trying to make 'Magic Moments' or "Dr J Moments" or trying to convince people he was just as good as Wilt.

He was too busy making MJ moments


Blame the media and social media for that constant BS
 
2013-06-26 05:25:45 PM

JerseyTim: "I know it wasn't the magnitude of MJ hitting that shot in '98, but I definitely thought about him,'' James said. ''It was an MJ moment.''

I've got no problem with this.



I've also got no problem with this.

"I know it wasn't the magnitude of MJ hitting that shot in '98, but I definitely thought about him,'' James said. ''It was an MJ moment.''

I do have a problem with this.  Stop it.
 
2013-06-26 05:32:36 PM

LarryDan43: Or need a game 7.


I don't get why it matters that Jordan never played a Game 7 in the Finals.

He lost to the Pistons in Game 7 of the ECF the year before he finally made it to and won in the finals - does that somehow tarnish his legacy?

He'd also have played in a couple Game 7s if Kerr and Paxson hadn't hit big shots.
 
2013-06-26 05:39:00 PM
bertor_vidas:
I said this in a thread a few weeks back, I'll say it again. Jordan had the benefit of a front office in Chicago which was willing to expend the money/effort to win.

The Cavs spent *plenty* of money to win. IIRC, they had the highest payroll in 2010, and this was coming off of Gilbert spending a huge pile of money to make the lockerrooms and player facilities into the nicest in the league. The problem is they never spent it *wisely*. Of course, they tried. They didn't want to spend all that money on Larry Hughes, but the guys they actually wanted (Michael Redd being the biggest name), spurned them. The Redd story is interesting, because allegedly he would have signed if LeBron actually met with him, but LeBron refused. That story gets repeated a lot around Cleveland... not sure if it's entirely accurate.

They also were idiots in letting Carlos Boozer out of his rookie contract to sign an extension, only to watch him sign elsewhere (that might be the stupidest GM move since Stepien had a rule created in his "honor"). They tried to trade for Amare Stoudemire, but the Suns wouldn't give him up (JOKES ON YOU NOW!), forcing them to go with Antawn Jamison instead. They were willing to take on Shaq's contract just so they could have a guy to match up with Dwight Howard. Money was not the problem. Convincing people to come to Cleveland was the problem.
 
2013-06-26 05:45:15 PM

lacydog: They also were idiots in letting Carlos Boozer out of his rookie contract to sign an extension, only to watch him sign elsewhere (that might be the stupidest GM move since Stepien had a rule created in his "honor"). They tried to trade for Amare Stoudemire, but the Suns wouldn't give him up (JOKES ON YOU NOW!)


no, boozer farked them.

the joke isn't on us.  go ask the most storied franchise in the NBA* New York Knicks how well Amare Stoudamire is working out for them.  also, the word here was that LeBron effectively vetoed the Amare trade, because the Suns wanted JJ Hickson, but the story was he had become one of LBJ's boys, and LBJ didn't wnat to part with him.  there was another player or two in the mix but apparently, the Suns wanted Hickson but LeBron 86'd that.
 
2013-06-26 05:50:36 PM

Mike_LowELL: Killer Cars: /I don't "disagree" with the proposition that MJ is the best ever; it's just a needless, fruitless argument I don't see the point spending time with.

You can make a case that any one of the elite-tier players--Jordan, Chamberlain, Magic, Bird, Russell, Kareem--is the GoaT.  And that's perfectly okay.  But it's much, much different to take your meager understanding of the game of basketball, combine it with the greatest marketing of any single athlete in American sports history, and conclude Jordan is the best, without exception.

bertor_vidas: Of course, the two seasons he took off for baseball show his importance to the team, but the Bulls were still a strong playoff contender without him.

Obligatory.

Jordan retired in October of 1993.  The critics predicted gloom and doom for the Bulls.  (I was one of these critics).  Some even declared that without Jordan, the Bulls wouldn't even make the playoffs.  After all, Jordan supposedly carried those stiffs to three titles, right?  Because Jordan waited so late to retire, the Bulls were not able to pick up an adequate starter in free agency.  They settled with Pete Myers from the CBA.   They were set up to fail.  Myers had a defensive reputation, but no where near that of Jordan, who had been named first-team all-defense 6 times and won the defensive player of the year award.  Furthermore, Myeres hadn't even played in the NBA for the last two years, and he never averaged more than 5 points per game.  How can you replace Jordan's 32 ppg and all-world defense with this guy?  The Bulls were set up to fail.

...

The first assumption was declared by nearly everybody.  Even Bulls coach Phil Jackson predicted a 15-game slip in his autobiography, Sacred Hoops.  He based this upon the retirement of superstars from the past.  Replacing Jordan with Myers should have been detrimental.  However, the Bulls only slipped 2 games: from 57-25 with Jordan in 1993 to 55-27 in 1994.  How could this be?  They should have falle ...


I agree with you on that point. My comment in the previous thread was something akin to "The Bulls were a great team without Jordan as evidenced by their record without him. Getting Jordan back put them over the top." It is, coincidentally, the exact same opinion that I have of Phil Jackson. Sure, he coached an absolute boatload of HoF players during those 11 championship runs. Sure, you could argue that any old scrub could have won championships with those teams, but I feel that Jackson put those teams over the top (i.e. other coaches would have won 7,8, or 9 but not 11 with the teams he coached). The myths that are Jordan and Jackson were created by an extraordinary confluence of great players, great coaches, and great organizations. It's very hard to pick out just how important any one part was to the whole.

/Except Hue Hollins
//Although I'm too young to remember that game
 
2013-06-26 05:50:47 PM
It was just a friggin figure of speech, like saying you had a blonde moment. The overreaction here is borderline tabloid journalism.
 
2013-06-26 05:52:24 PM

rickythepenguin: no, boozer farked them.


meaning, the Cavs couldn't give him a max deal under contract.  he could only get the max deal if he was a FA.  so the agreement the Cavs thought they had was, "ok dude, we'll make you a free agent, and then we can max you out.  but you can't go sign elsewhere, mmmmmmkay?"  so they released him frmo the contract, making him a free agent, Utah swoops him and makes him an offer he can't refuse, Cleveland refuses to match.
 
2013-06-26 05:52:26 PM
For all MJ's prowess on offense, he was also a pretty good defender.  I mean, if he didn't want you to score, you may as well stay on the bus.  His defending plus his leadership, athleticism, et al. is what makes him the best ever.
 
2013-06-26 05:57:59 PM

The Banana Thug: "Let's compare the two players at the age of 28, which is how old LeBron is now. LeBron has scored more than 2,400 more points (19,045 to Jordan's 16,596), has more than 1,700 more rebounds (4,943 to 3,180) and assists (4,751 to 3,081), almost 150 more double-doubles (268-121) and two times as many triple-triples (41-19). He also has more MVP awards, all-star appearances and all-star MVPs."

Link

This idea of whoever's the better player based on championships, which is more of a team accomplishment than an individual one, is dumb.  No way that Flacco's a better QB than Marino.


You smart bruh
 
2013-06-26 06:06:15 PM

lacydog: bertor_vidas:
I said this in a thread a few weeks back, I'll say it again. Jordan had the benefit of a front office in Chicago which was willing to expend the money/effort to win.

The Cavs spent *plenty* of money to win. IIRC, they had the highest payroll in 2010, and this was coming off of Gilbert spending a huge pile of money to make the lockerrooms and player facilities into the nicest in the league. The problem is they never spent it *wisely*. Of course, they tried. They didn't want to spend all that money on Larry Hughes, but the guys they actually wanted (Michael Redd being the biggest name), spurned them. The Redd story is interesting, because allegedly he would have signed if LeBron actually met with him, but LeBron refused. That story gets repeated a lot around Cleveland... not sure if it's entirely accurate.

They also were idiots in letting Carlos Boozer out of his rookie contract to sign an extension, only to watch him sign elsewhere (that might be the stupidest GM move since Stepien had a rule created in his "honor"). They tried to trade for Amare Stoudemire, but the Suns wouldn't give him up (JOKES ON YOU NOW!), forcing them to go with Antawn Jamison instead. They were willing to take on Shaq's contract just so they could have a guy to match up with Dwight Howard. Money was not the problem. Convincing people to come to Cleveland was the problem.


Which is why I included "effort" as a CYA, but fair enough. My personal view of all those free agent cash splash moves is that they were more to generate excitement than they were well-considered decisions to make the Cavs a better contender (as you point out, they didn't spend money wisely). Buying up Shaq on the downslope of his career to match up vs. Howard (which I feel typifies their spending, overpaying for guys on the downside of their career)? Not picking anyone worthwhile in the draft for years (their success/W-L record  did screw them over there)? Also, they had the fifth highest payroll according to one somewhat sketchy source I found. Remember, Isiah Thomas' decisions were still haunting the Knicks.  http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/misc/salaries10.txt
 
2013-06-26 06:09:50 PM

rickythepenguin: lacydog: They also were idiots in letting Carlos Boozer out of his rookie contract to sign an extension, only to watch him sign elsewhere (that might be the stupidest GM move since Stepien had a rule created in his "honor"). They tried to trade for Amare Stoudemire, but the Suns wouldn't give him up (JOKES ON YOU NOW!)

no, boozer farked them.

the joke isn't on us.  go ask the most storied franchise in the NBA* New York Knicks how well Amare Stoudamire is working out for them.  also, the word here was that LeBron effectively vetoed the Amare trade, because the Suns wanted JJ Hickson, but the story was he had become one of LBJ's boys, and LBJ didn't wnat to part with him.  there was another player or two in the mix but apparently, the Suns wanted Hickson but LeBron 86'd that.


I've heard many forms of that rumor before, but it's never been substantiated. Kerr did an interview where he said that the Suns were the one that didn't accept the deal with Hickson involved, they weren't going to deal him in 2010 no matter what (scroll to the bottom of that story where it starts talking about Steve Kerr's podcast interview with Bill Simmons).
 
2013-06-26 06:20:18 PM

bertor_vidas: lacydog: bertor_vidas:Which is why I included "effort" as a CYA, but fair enough. My personal view of all those free agent cash splash moves is that they were more to generate excitement than they were well-considered decisions to make the Cavs a better contender (as you point out, they didn't spend money wisely). Buying up Shaq on the downslope of his career to match up vs. Howard (which I feel typifies their spending, overpaying for guys on the downside of their career)? Not picking anyone worthwhile in the draft for years (their success/W-L record  did screw them over there)? Also, they had the fifth highest payroll...


The draft picks were really the big issue. While Shannon Brown and Daniel Gibson are okay, the period before Danny Ferry was hired was ABYSMAL as far as draft picks go. The 4 years leading up to James getting picked, the Cavs had top ten picks each year, as well as an additional #11 pick in the 99 draft. They took:

Andre Miller (good pick, but they traded him in order to tank for the LeBron draft)
Trajan Langdon (awful)
Jamal Crawford would have been good if they didn't just draft him to trade for... Chris Mihm (who was okay, but was also traded in order to tank for the LeBron draft)
DeSagna Diop (awful)
DaJuan Wagner (out of the league in two years... impressive for a #6 overall pick)

They also had the #10 pick the year after LeBron. They chose Luke Jackson.

Ferry was brought in after that, but at that point LeBron was good enough that the team wouldn't be drafting high again. He did make a few savvy picks (Hickson at 19, Danny Green in the second round), but they would not be enough.
 
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