Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Telegraph)   Tchaikovsky concerto corrected after more than a century of almost everyone playing it wrong. It pays to look at the source, it seems   (blogs.telegraph.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Cool, Tchaikovsky Research, concertos  
•       •       •

4171 clicks; posted to Geek » on 26 Jun 2013 at 3:17 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



34 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2013-06-26 02:11:23 PM  
Having not studied music theory extensively, I had never given thought to the aesthetic quality of a song as it is written on the clefs.
 
2013-06-26 03:23:27 PM  
Incidentally, on a semi-related note, I was listening to Radiolab (from New York Public Radio) a while ago and they were doing a story on Beethoven.

Apparently, after the metronome was invented, Beethoven was so taken by the invention that he went back to his compositions and wrote down metronome notations to indicate the tempo.

As it turned out, Beethoven intended almost all of his compositions to be played at much faster (think 120 bpm, I think) than how they are usually played in all of the recordings you have heard of his work. Symphonies and musicians have been playing his works wrong for the last 200 years.
 
2013-06-26 03:25:14 PM  
HURRY UP WITH MY DAMN CROISANT.
 
2013-06-26 03:27:06 PM  
If this single note is the most exciting musical discovery of this guy's life, I think I'm going to feel a little sorry for him.
 
2013-06-26 03:27:34 PM  

RexTalionis: Incidentally, on a semi-related note, I was listening to Radiolab (from New York Public Radio) a while ago and they were doing a story on Beethoven.

Apparently, after the metronome was invented, Beethoven was so taken by the invention that he went back to his compositions and wrote down metronome notations to indicate the tempo.

As it turned out, Beethoven intended almost all of his compositions to be played at much faster (think 120 bpm, I think) than how they are usually played in all of the recordings you have heard of his work. Symphonies and musicians have been playing his works wrong for the last 200 years.


I have played a few Beethoven symphonies and he used metronome markings that are ridiculously fast. So fast that I have heard that perhaps he was using an off metronome. Still, though, it is funny to imagine his symphonies being played at the speed indicated by all of his markings.
 
2013-06-26 03:30:56 PM  
They've been playing it upside down the whole time?

/Victor Borge, a pioneer
 
2013-06-26 03:32:04 PM  
Who cares, all performances after the first are covers anyway
 
2013-06-26 03:42:28 PM  
Open source music FTW!
 
2013-06-26 03:45:41 PM  

Old_Chief_Scott: If this single note is the most exciting musical discovery of this guy's life, I think I'm going to feel a little sorry for him.


If you read the article, he's been trying to get people to realize he was right all along., And now, he is. Imagine how awesome that must be. This is his IN YOUR FACE! I AM THE BEST! USA! USA! moment.
 
2013-06-26 03:47:14 PM  
I heard that George Gershwin busted major ass during his recording session of Rhapsody in Blue.
To this day the 2nd clarinet is expected to crank-off a bum burp to duplicate this "unforeseen addition".
 
2013-06-26 03:51:52 PM  
Too many notes!
 
2013-06-26 03:54:19 PM  
Subby : "It pays to look at the source, it seems"

Unfortunatly next to no one does any more, for anything. Reading takes effort, and people do not want to make an effort.
 
2013-06-26 03:57:53 PM  
Interesting. The first 35 seconds of this has been my alarm for the last 5 years.
 
2013-06-26 03:59:57 PM  

Fano: They've been playing it upside down the whole time?

/Victor Borge, a pioneer


So great. Also, minute waltz. :)

And I found TFA actually pretty interesting. Everyone's got their little hobby. :)
 
2013-06-26 04:03:00 PM  

scallywaghotness: I have played a few Beethoven symphonies and he used metronome markings that are ridiculously fast. So fast that I have heard that perhaps he was using an off metronome. Still, though, it is funny to imagine his symphonies being played at the speed indicated by all of his markings.


CSS:
I started studying Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata on my own about 10 years ago. I'd taken one year of piano, and no other music lessons, so more or less self-taught. While learning how to play, I instinctively used the dampener pedal, instead of the sustain pedal that is usually indicated. It just flat out sounded better. I later found out that back in the day, the pedals on a piano used to be switched, so where Beethoven instructs the performer to use the right pedal, he is telling them to use the dampener, not the sustain. Another common error.

Also, I find the metronome story funny, because I love playing Moonlight Sonata at high speed. My mom used to complain, but the high notes on some of the parts suggested a female vocalist to me, and it didn't sound right to have it that slow.

/music is as much about the ears and the hands as it is what the eye sees on the page
//getting back into music since her fiance is a musician. Learning by osmosis if nothing else.
 
2013-06-26 04:08:33 PM  
It wasn't just any note- I've always wondered about this one myself. The second movement of the Concerto is based on this particular melody, and the first time through, at the very beginning of the movement, it is played on solo flute with the third note note different from the way the melody is heard throughout the rest of the movement. Nice to know it's been a typo all along, rather than Tchaikovsky being intentionally peevish.
 
2013-06-26 04:28:03 PM  
farm8.staticflickr.com
 
2013-06-26 04:47:03 PM  

RexTalionis: Incidentally, on a semi-related note, I was listening to Radiolab (from New York Public Radio) a while ago and they were doing a story on Beethoven.

Apparently, after the metronome was invented, Beethoven was so taken by the invention that he went back to his compositions and wrote down metronome notations to indicate the tempo.

As it turned out, Beethoven intended almost all of his compositions to be played at much faster (think 120 bpm, I think) than how they are usually played in all of the recordings you have heard of his work. Symphonies and musicians have been playing his works wrong for the last 200 years.


Pierre Boulez has said that "composers' metronome markings are always wrong". I embrace that motto.
Also you can find recordings of composers conducting their own works at tempos that have nothing to do with the metronome marking they specified on paper.
 
2013-06-26 05:45:07 PM  
Gershwin was mentioned above... If you can, find some of the earliest recordings of Rhapsody in Blue. Typically today, the theme/sounds of that era in the piece are played 'dressed up' - played in a classical style. But the early recordings are exactly opposite - they take the classical orchestra and have them play in the pace and style of the time - so the clarinets and trumpets 'bray' like a donkey.  Completely. Different.

/Probably because I heard the modern interpretation for the first several decades of my life, but hearing the early recordings... sounds like a musical caricature... which imho was the composer's intent.
//I watched an interview of Stuart Hamblen who - among other things - wrote 'This Ole House'. (Please follow the wiki link - very cool story). He wrote it as a slow, sad memorial - a house falling apart as a symbol of the fading life of a man. He then heard the upbeat, zippy, recording by Rosemary Clooney - a huge hit at the time - and he was really upset... until they gave him his first check. Then he decided she could sing it however the hell she wanted.
///Got a full twenty minute ass chewing from the conductor of a fairly large metropolitan orchestra. He happened to walk by the practice room where I was playing Bach inventions - but if it was written in major, I'd play it in minor instead. As a young lad, I thought it was awesome... He. did. not.  sigh.
 
2013-06-26 06:06:34 PM  

RexTalionis: Incidentally, on a semi-related note, I was listening to Radiolab (from New York Public Radio) a while ago and they were doing a story on Beethoven.

Apparently, after the metronome was invented, Beethoven was so taken by the invention that he went back to his compositions and wrote down metronome notations to indicate the tempo.

As it turned out, Beethoven intended almost all of his compositions to be played at much faster (think 120 bpm, I think) than how they are usually played in all of the recordings you have heard of his work. Symphonies and musicians have been playing his works wrong for the last 200 years.


from the way you worded your story it seems as though Beethoven is over 200 years old and the metronome wasnt invented until after 200 years of incorrect music playing.
 
2013-06-26 06:16:10 PM  

Peki: the pedals on a piano used to be switched


"Sustain(ing)" and "damper" are the same pedal in piano terminology. You're probably talking about the or "una corda" (or in typical modern pianos, "half-blow") pedal, which Beethoven specifically indicated in several scores. It's worth nothing that at Beethoven's time it was often hand stop or knee control, not a pedal, and the una corda mechanism that was common in pianos of his time is not available on most modern pianos (and is not quite the same even where it is available).

There's actually quite a history to piano pedals:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_pedals
 
2013-06-26 07:36:46 PM  

scallywaghotness: I have played a few Beethoven symphonies and he used metronome markings that are ridiculously fast. So fast that I have heard that perhaps he was using an off metronome. Still, though, it is funny to imagine his symphonies being played at the speed indicated by all of his markings.


They addressed that in the Radiolab segment - the museum that has Beethoven's metronome says that it works just fine.

They also got a 4 string quartet to do a few of his pieces at the speed he indicated. And then they tried to play it even faster to see how it sounds.
 
2013-06-26 07:44:42 PM  

RexTalionis: scallywaghotness: I have played a few Beethoven symphonies and he used metronome markings that are ridiculously fast. So fast that I have heard that perhaps he was using an off metronome. Still, though, it is funny to imagine his symphonies being played at the speed indicated by all of his markings.

They addressed that in the Radiolab segment - the museum that has Beethoven's metronome says that it works just fine.

They also got a 4 string quartet to do a few of his pieces at the speed he indicated. And then they tried to play it even faster to see how it sounds.


String quartet. I don't know why there was a 4 in there.
 
2013-06-26 08:03:02 PM  
When I was doing some research for a musical course I took as an elective, I came across an example of a rather amazing piece of music.   It was written in such a way that if you placed the sheet on a table between two people facing each other, they could both read from the sheet music as if it were facing them correctly.

It was much more than the clever 'palindrome' sheet music I've seen in which the notes are the same if read in reverse.  This one was actually written in such a way that two people could begin playing simultaneously and 'criss cross' in the middle.   To each person, the sheet music would appear correct, and the harmony/melody/rhythm would align.  Really fascinating.

Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the piece, it was rather complicated as well if I remember.   Does anyone know what it might have been called?
 
2013-06-26 08:13:29 PM  
Ahh here you go.  I'm not sure that this was the literal piece, but it helps illustrate how interesting these things could be:

http://www2.nau.edu/tas3/MOcancrizans.pdf
 
2013-06-26 08:58:37 PM  

jaylectricity: Having not studied music theory extensively, I had never given thought to the aesthetic quality of a song as it is written on the clefs.

i.imgur.com
 
2013-06-26 09:43:11 PM  
Now it sounds gay.
 
2013-06-27 12:53:41 AM  

RexTalionis: Apparently, after the metronome was invented, Beethoven was so taken by the invention that he went back to his compositions and wrote down metronome notations to indicate the tempo.

As it turned out, Beethoven intended almost all of his compositions to be played at much faster (think 120 bpm, I think) than how they are usually played in all of the recordings you have heard of his work. Symphonies and musicians have been playing his works wrong for the last 200 years.


scallywaghotness: I have played a few Beethoven symphonies and he used metronome markings that are ridiculously fast. So fast that I have heard that perhaps he was using an off metronome. Still, though, it is funny to imagine his symphonies being played at the speed indicated by all of his markings.


The speed of the metronome markings has long been grossly overstated. In fact, some of the movements have always been played faster than marked, such as the 4th movement of the 7th symphony.

Starting in the 1980s conductors like Gardiner, Mackerras and Norrington began conducting the symphonies following the metronome markings. Since then the metronome markings have been widely accepted -- everyone from Abbado/Berlin Philharmonic to Chailly/Gewandhaus have followed them pretty faithfully in their cycles.
 
2013-06-27 01:00:07 AM  

jaylectricity: Having not studied music theory extensively, I had never given thought to the aesthetic quality of a song as it is written on the clefs.


That's not what they are talking about.  There are certain intervals that sound 'good' together and others that don't.  Two notes right next to each other, for instance, sound terrible if played together (although you can get away with it as a passing tone to create tension.)
 
2013-06-27 01:05:51 AM  

Tired_of_the_BS: Gershwin was mentioned above... If you can, find some of the earliest recordings of Rhapsody in Blue. Typically today, the theme/sounds of that era in the piece are played 'dressed up' - played in a classical style. But the early recordings are exactly opposite - they take the classical orchestra and have them play in the pace and style of the time - so the clarinets and trumpets 'bray' like a donkey.  Completely. Different.


"Rhapsody," as well as most of Gershwin's orchestral music, was composed for the Paul Whiteman Orchestra -- a jazz band (about 25 musicians) consisting of about 10 strings (in fact, the band's configuration for "Rhapsody" was 8 violins and 1 bass -- no cellos or violas) -- so the balance was heavily tilted to the winds and brass. The works were reorchestrated to utilize all of the instruments in a symphonic orchestra, and those reorchestrations are what's typically performed. That being said, in the last two decades the original jazz band versions have come back into favor and most new recordings are done in that manner.
 
2013-06-27 02:05:55 AM  
I have come across literally hundreds of errors in various scores. I don't know how they get the way they do, however.

But just in the guitar score for Rodrigo's Concerto Aranjuez I count something like 30 errors. Some of them are as obvious as the score indicating 7 simultaneous notes. That's a neat trick for a 6-stringed instrument. Another place requests an open "A" while giving a full barre on the 5th fret. Another neat trick. Another place shows a series of notes as 16th notes that should be 32nd notes, etc.

In Bolling's Concerto for Classical Guitar and Jazz Piano, they put the dal segno one measure off.

I could go on like this more or less forever.

All these mistakes were confusing to me as a learning guitar player, but now I realize that these people are just lazy and don't pay attention to detail.
 
2013-06-27 02:18:09 AM  

thornhill: Tired_of_the_BS: Gershwin was mentioned above... If you can, find some of the earliest recordings of Rhapsody in Blue. Typically today, the theme/sounds of that era in the piece are played 'dressed up' - played in a classical style. But the early recordings are exactly opposite - they take the classical orchestra and have them play in the pace and style of the time - so the clarinets and trumpets 'bray' like a donkey.  Completely. Different.

"Rhapsody," as well as most of Gershwin's orchestral music, was composed for the Paul Whiteman Orchestra -- a jazz band (about 25 musicians) consisting of about 10 strings (in fact, the band's configuration for "Rhapsody" was 8 violins and 1 bass -- no cellos or violas) -- so the balance was heavily tilted to the winds and brass. The works were reorchestrated to utilize all of the instruments in a symphonic orchestra, and those reorchestrations are what's typically performed. That being said, in the last two decades the original jazz band versions have come back into favor and most new recordings are done in that manner.



This many posts about Rhapsody in Blue and no one's posted the original recording? Bonus: Gershwin himself playing the piano.
 
2013-06-27 03:47:15 AM  
"Before electrical recordings and microphones, instrumentation was limited to what could be recorded.  String bass was often too low of a frequency to be picked up well.  There are virtually no drums on pre-1920s recordings because the vibration would cause the recording needle to jump on the lathe and wreck the recording process"
 
2013-06-28 12:49:20 AM  
 
Displayed 34 of 34 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter






In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report