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(Slate)   Some stats from a new, larger, study on gun use and misuse in the United States. Yes, Fark has already regurgitated these points ad nauseum. It won't stop the conversation to the right from happening again though   (slate.com) divider line 200
    More: Interesting, United States, ad nauseum, William Saletan, Fark, Sandy Hook Elementary School, gun violence, Vice President Joe Biden  
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2544 clicks; posted to Politics » on 26 Jun 2013 at 11:33 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-26 09:45:47 AM
False Flag. Aliens. Wil Wheaton. Agent Provocateur Space Pope. Just ask Alex Jones.
 
2013-06-26 09:46:32 AM
That is possibly one of the most non-partisan study in the history of gun violence research.

Finally we have something real that we can debate about without that sting of politics.
 
2013-06-26 10:12:31 AM

cman: That is possibly one of the most non-partisan study in the history of gun violence research.

Finally we have something real that we can debate about without that sting of politics.


where's the fun in that!  we need to be told that Obama is coming for our guns and guns are only used to murder people and should be abolished.
 
2013-06-26 10:36:43 AM
Handguns are used in 87% of violent crimes despite accounting only about one-third of the guns out there.

Ban handguns.  They're not going to protect you from tyranny, anyhow.
 
2013-06-26 10:49:52 AM

BarkingUnicorn: Handguns are used in 87% of violent crimes despite accounting only about one-third of the guns out there.

Ban handguns.  They're not going to protect you from tyranny, anyhow.


7. Guns are used for self-defense often and effectively. "Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year ... in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008," says the report. The three million figure is probably high, "based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys." But a much lower estimate of 108,000 also seems fishy, "because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use." Furthermore, "Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was 'used' by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies."
 
2013-06-26 11:15:50 AM

cman: That is possibly one of the most non-partisan study in the history of gun violence research.

Finally we have something real that we can debate about without that sting of politics.


You're adorable

*pats head*
 
2013-06-26 11:36:48 AM
i970.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-26 11:36:50 AM
Large electromagnets on the streets. Activated by gunfire. You fire, your gun is stolen, as are any others nearby.

Foolproof!
 
2013-06-26 11:40:21 AM
A good debate is hard to have when your opponent has a gun.
 
2013-06-26 11:40:39 AM

LasersHurt: Large electromagnets on the streets. Activated by gunfire. You fire, your gun is stolen, as are any others nearby.

Foolproof!


What about my... errr ummm piercings?
 
2013-06-26 11:42:55 AM
Regardless of Subby's dour disposition, I will say that this article seems overwhelmingly objective and  accurate, which is something that can't be said for a lot of gun articles. Bravo, Slate.
 
2013-06-26 11:43:46 AM
If it wasn't so damn difficult to get reliable data on defensive gun uses, it would be a much more compelling argument. You only really get news reports when a homeowner actually shoots someone, rather than someone just politely convincing a perp to seek a victim elsewhere by producing their weapon.

The big takeaways from this are:
1. Put/reinforce the teeth of removing firearms from those with OOPs and restraining orders against them.  This isn't new, but female murder victims are quite often killed by intimate/formerly intimate partners.
2. Efforts to combat gun violence should focus on cutting off supply to violent criminals.  Rampaging madmen grab our attention, but armed robbers and gangs rack up the body count.  Straw purchases are a part of that, as well as long chains of person-to-person sales.
 
2013-06-26 11:43:47 AM

Saiga410: LasersHurt: Large electromagnets on the streets. Activated by gunfire. You fire, your gun is stolen, as are any others nearby.

Foolproof!

What about my... errr ummm piercings?


Or grandma's hip?
 
2013-06-26 11:43:48 AM
I don't want gun, I want a Minuteman ICBM and silo in my backyard.
 
2013-06-26 11:44:47 AM

Fubini: Regardless of Subby's dour disposition, I will say that this article seems overwhelmingly objective and  accurate, which is something that can't be said for a lot of gun articles. Bravo, Slate.


Just like a capitalism debate, objectivity and accuracy mean nothing on this subject.
 
2013-06-26 11:45:18 AM

Cletus C.: A good debate is hard to have when your opponent has a gun.


True.

downunderdivas.files.wordpress.com

"You just shot an unarmed man!"
"He should have armed himself when he decided to decorate his bar with my friend."
 
2013-06-26 11:45:47 AM
Can you have a sea mine?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-06-26 11:49:44 AM

factoryconnection: The big takeaways from this are:
1. Put/reinforce the teeth of removing firearms from those with OOPs and restraining orders against them.  This isn't new, but female murder victims are quite often killed by intimate/formerly intimate partners.
2. Efforts to combat gun violence should focus on cutting off supply to violent criminals.  Rampaging madmen grab our attention, but armed robbers and gangs rack up the body count.  Straw purchases are a part of that, as well as long chains of person-to-person sales.


In other words: gun control.
 
2013-06-26 11:50:00 AM

Jake Havechek: Can you have a sea mine?


As long as it has a trigger lock, and is stored in a sea mine safe.
 
2013-06-26 11:50:50 AM
NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO TALK GUN CONTROL.
 
2013-06-26 11:51:04 AM
6. Gun suicide is a bigger killer than gun homicide.

You have to discriminate between accidental self injury and intentional suicides, but people are going to find ways to kill themselves regardless of what you try to do.
 
2013-06-26 11:51:41 AM
Facts have never played a prominent role in the gun debate and it is beginning to seem like introducing them is just a waste of time.
 
2013-06-26 11:52:01 AM

Fubini: Or grandma's hip?


Those are actually made of Titanium most of the time, at least I think.
 
2013-06-26 11:52:44 AM
I just bought a pistol this morning from an individual and we checked driver's licenses, both signed papers that said we were both allowed to own guns legally and even went to the point of taking pictures of each others driver's license to make sure we were residents of the same state.
 
2013-06-26 11:53:07 AM
You know that scene in "Wild At Heart" when Bobby Peru blows his own head off with a shotgun?  Pretty freaky scene.
 
2013-06-26 11:53:53 AM
No stats on gun show purchases or sales? Inconceivable.
 
2013-06-26 11:54:02 AM
I'm too busy at work to do much on this today, but I do have access to the full report. If anyone wants to look up the references on Defensive Gun Use, they are:

Cook & Ludwig, 1996 and  Kleck, 2001give the 500K - 3M DGU numbers.
Cook et al. 1997 shows a much lower rate of 100K

The 100K has methodological problem that would underreport
The 3M number is based on sampling

Kleck 1988, Kleck & DeLone 1993, Southwick 2000, and Tark & Kleck 2004 show that defensive gun use show more positive outcomes for victims than for those who use other defense stratgies.

One open question raised/investigated by Kellerman et al. 1992, 1993, and 1995 is whether an increased risk of suicide, homicide, or home invasion would cancel out the beneficial effects of better defensive outcomes for gun owners.
 
2013-06-26 11:54:55 AM

physt: NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO TALK GUN CONTROL.


Unless there is a mass shooting in the news today.  Then we need to pencil it in for next week after the political grandstanding is over.
 
2013-06-26 11:55:53 AM

Britney Spear's Speculum: 6. Gun suicide is a bigger killer than gun homicide.

You have to discriminate between accidental self injury and intentional suicides, but people are going to find ways to kill themselves regardless of what you try to do.


Like my friend that twice drank antifreeze and then after surviving and having someone work their asses off and get him the proper treatment and help himself through his rough time, he went to his sister's intending to hang himself (he even had a new rope that he had bought for the occasion)  but instead found his nephew's shotgun and killed himself in the back yard.  He was bound and determined to kill himself and guns had NOTHING to do with it except be the actual instrument in his suicide.
 
2013-06-26 11:56:16 AM
106 million handguns, 105 million rifles, and 83 million shotguns

I have never seen this stat.  I never would have imagined that the split would have been 1,1,1.  I must be in a weird area because I would have expected 1,1,2 but thinking back my state does not really allow for rifle hunting which might make up for my personal experience.
 
2013-06-26 11:56:53 AM
can somebody do a statistic on the number of complete bullets (cartridges) sold to US Civilians versus gun-related injuries and homocides, per year? my guess is that it's like 0.1% or something.
 
2013-06-26 11:57:20 AM

Britney Spear's Speculum: 6. Gun suicide is a bigger killer than gun homicide.

You have to discriminate between accidental self injury and intentional suicides, but people are going to find ways to kill themselves regardless of what you try to do.


Accidental self injury: about 500-600 deaths, about 70,000 injuries.
Suicide: about 30K deaths, dunno how many injuries, but IIRC there is a 90-95% success rate.
 
2013-06-26 11:58:45 AM
Guns are okay, but people, man people are messed up.
 
2013-06-26 12:01:47 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Handguns are used in 87% of violent crimes despite accounting only about one-third of the guns out there.

Ban handguns.  They're not going to protect you from tyranny, anyhow.


"I don't know why any individual should have a right to have a revolver in his house," Nixon said in a taped conversation with aides. "The kids usually kill themselves with it and so forth." He asked why "can't we go after handguns, period?"

Nixon went on: "I know the rifle association will be against it, the gun makers will be against it." But "people should not have handguns."
 
2013-06-26 12:02:54 PM
Good lord, man. Y'all are really racking up the ad impressions today. Probably not clickthrough, but definitely impressions.
 
2013-06-26 12:02:57 PM

utah dude: can somebody do a statistic on the number of complete bullets (cartridges) sold to US Civilians versus gun-related injuries and homocides, per year? my guess is that it's like 0.1% or something.


A better stat might be something like percentage of injury/fatality per hours of gun use, or something, because it relates actual *use* to *risk*. This is how most other risks are quantified, e.g. chance of fatal car accident per miles/hours driven, chance of fatal airplane crash per miles/hours flown, etc.

I once tried to calculate the risk of firearms injury per hour of gun use and found that even under very conservative assumptions you're more at risk from driving in a car for an hour than you are using a gun (carrying/shooting) for an hour. I attribute this to people recognizing guns as very dangerous and treating them as such, but I'm just a jerkwad on the internet, so who knows?
 
2013-06-26 12:04:48 PM

doglover: Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year


This sentence is absurd on its face. It would mean that for every crime committed or attempted with a gun, there are one or more examples of someone defending him- or herself with a gun.
 
2013-06-26 12:07:50 PM
I thought this was about buns, delicious, buttery buns.

What a disappointment.
 
2013-06-26 12:07:54 PM

Britney Spear's Speculum: 6. Gun suicide is a bigger killer than gun homicide.

You have to discriminate between accidental self injury and intentional suicides, but people are going to find ways to kill themselves regardless of what you try to do.


Some will, but not all. There is research on this. Gun owners have an elevated risk of suicide. It is a fact that restricting access to guns would reduce suicide.
 
2013-06-26 12:08:24 PM
FTFA:  Why do criminals prefer handguns? One reason, according to surveys of felons, is that they're "easily concealable."

images2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-06-26 12:09:49 PM
That was surprisingly....

rational....from Slate...on guns...

Did I take the blue pill this morning?
 
2013-06-26 12:10:13 PM
If the emotion surrounding a bunch of dead, upper-middle class white children can't do anything, what makes you think statistics can?
 
2013-06-26 12:12:27 PM

BMulligan: doglover: Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year

This sentence is absurd on its face. It would mean that for every crime committed or attempted with a gun, there are one or more examples of someone defending him- or herself with a gun.


Except that not all criminals and not all defenders use guns. You could be mugged by a guy with a knife, or you could defend yourself with a tire iron.

The majority of criminals do not use guns due to strict mandatory sentencing laws if you commit a crime with a gun in your possession (even if it never leaves your holster/pocket/waistband). Mere possession of a gun during a crime is enough to make it a felony in most places.
 
2013-06-26 12:12:31 PM

BMulligan: doglover: Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year

This sentence is absurd on its face. It would mean that for every crime committed or attempted with a gun, there are one or more examples of someone defending him- or herself with a gun.


That's potentially true. If we remove the caveat of "crime" and just include all manner of defense, it's almost certainly true. Very little real estate in America is not rural.
 
2013-06-26 12:14:08 PM

AngryDragon: That was surprisingly....

rational....from Slate...on guns...

Did I take the blue pill this morning?


Do you still have a boner?
 
2013-06-26 12:15:15 PM

LasersHurt: Large electromagnets on the streets. Activated by gunfire. You fire, your gun is stolen, as are any others nearby.


I prefer large phased arrays of acoustic transducers. After they pinpoint a gunshot location they can go into transmit mode and create a standing wave in the shooters head that makes him pass out.
 
2013-06-26 12:16:05 PM

monoski: Do you still have a boner?


texas just executed it's 500th prisoner so yeah he probably does
 
2013-06-26 12:16:26 PM
How this plays out:

1. We have a gun homicide rate 19.5 times worse than any other industrialized nation.

But...

2.  GUN CRIME RATES ARE COMING DOWN IN THE PAST DECADE!

Well, obviously we should just sit on our hands, Congresscritter from the Great State of "Never Visited But I Flew Over Many Times".
 
2013-06-26 12:17:51 PM

BMulligan: doglover: Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year

This sentence is absurd on its face. It would mean that for every crime committed or attempted with a gun, there are one or more examples of someone defending him- or herself with a gun.


Also, consider the following: There are about 300 million guns in the US, 100 million handguns. If you say there are 300,000 gun offenses in a year, and each one of those guns is unique (probably a bad assumption), then that means that  0.1% of all guns in the US are used in crime each year. Even if you only consider those to be handguns, then 0.3% of all handguns in the US are used in crime each year.

Either way, the number of law-abiding gun owners and legally used guns far, far outstrips illegally held guns and illegal use of guns.
 
2013-06-26 12:18:44 PM

coeyagi: 1. We have a gun homicide rate 19.5 times worse than any other industrialized nation.


they hate us for our freedumbs
 
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