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(CNN)   Zimmerman defense lawyer apologizes to jury for telling knock-knock joke about them in his opening statement, asks them if they've heard the one about Trayvon Martin's favorite flavor of Skittles   (cnn.com) divider line 933
    More: Dumbass, George Zimmerman, Skittles, opening statement, Mark O'Mara, Angela Corey, next of kin, Benjamin Crump, Dean Martin  
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6581 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Jun 2013 at 8:15 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-25 03:59:40 PM

Abuse Liability: Phinn: That's your imagination again.

I'm going to say something that may cause you to fly into a rage, but you still need to hear it -- Your imagination is not the same as reality.

Cogitate on that for a while. Let it sink in.

Just so you know, your levelheadedness and familiarity with the law has you highlighted as nice green for me.  You've done an excellent job keeping your cool despite the rest of us (myself included) dipping into the ol' emotional well.

/puts your penis back in your pants and zips ya up.


Thanks, dude. I've made my fair share of offensive jokes, but the stuff I've said about the law is accurate, or at least it's my attempt to be.
 
2013-06-25 04:03:14 PM
Mid_mo_mad_man:

I will flat out say it. Martin deserved to die that night. He could have done countless things to stop the chain of events. He chose not and to further escalate them. Zimmerman is no saint but he didn't murder that boy.

Hindsight being 20/20, I'd say going to the store alone was his biggest mistake. I sincerely wish he'd just stayed home that evening and finished watching the game with his dad.
 
2013-06-25 04:07:08 PM

I Browse: Mid_mo_mad_man:

I will flat out say it. Martin deserved to die that night. He could have done countless things to stop the chain of events. He chose not and to further escalate them. Zimmerman is no saint but he didn't murder that boy.

Hindsight being 20/20, I'd say going to the store alone was his biggest mistake. I sincerely wish he'd just stayed home that evening and finished watching the game with his dad.


What's incredibly frustrating is that both could have done several things to diffuse the situation. I give more leniency to the teenager because of his age and inexperience. I expect more of Zimmerman.
 
2013-06-25 04:09:29 PM

Bontesla: I Browse: Mid_mo_mad_man:

I will flat out say it. Martin deserved to die that night. He could have done countless things to stop the chain of events. He chose not and to further escalate them. Zimmerman is no saint but he didn't murder that boy.

Hindsight being 20/20, I'd say going to the store alone was his biggest mistake. I sincerely wish he'd just stayed home that evening and finished watching the game with his dad.

What's incredibly frustrating is that both could have done several things to diffuse the situation. I give more leniency to the teenager because of his age and inexperience. I expect more of Zimmerman.


Yeah, the old debacle is a damn shame.  Its like when the stars align and you have a perfect game/trial/surgery/whatever.  Except its the exact opposite of that.  Too much stupid thrown together at one time and some kid dies.  Horrible.
 
2013-06-25 04:11:00 PM

ChaosStar: This blows holes in both of you saying Martin didn't confront Zimmerman, Zimmerman hunted him down, etc.
Martin walked up to him and asked him a question


How in the hell are so many of you people entirely unable to separate out any fact from your fantasy.

Somehow you take that if Martin spoke first, it somehow also proves that Martin 1)sought out Zimmerman 2) approached him, -and- 3) spoke first.
Only one of those things is even possibly known, the other two you made up from whole cloth. Can you even tell which one anymore? Holy crap some of you people have scary, volatile minds.
 
2013-06-25 04:11:17 PM

I Browse: I sincerely wish he'd just stayed home that evening and finished watching the game with his dad.


His dad wasn't home. He was playing video games when he left, not watching a game.
 
2013-06-25 04:13:51 PM

CliChe Guevara: unable to separate out any fact from your fantasy


Why remove supporting facts?
 
2013-06-25 04:15:12 PM

s2s2s2: Damn straight. This is all I've been saying. Hell. Maybe the reason Trayvon isn't alive today, is that no one caught him breaking into houses. We don't know that he wasn't casing houses. Alone in the rain, with nearly no one around is a good way to do it. If only Zimmerman's woman would have done the shopping like a good woman, George never would have crossed paths with Martin.

Speculation is easy, and often misleading.


Damn straight.  This is all I've been saying. Hell.  Maybe the reason more kids haven't been raped in that neighborhood is that Zimmerman had to move out and people know his face.  We don't know that he wasn't following Martin with plans to rape him.  Alone in the raid, with clearly no one around is a good way to do it.  If only Martin hadn't just laid there being raped like an alter boy, he would still be alive today.
 
2013-06-25 04:16:18 PM

s2s2s2: MFAWG: Zimmerman says he's pursuing

Following, to observe and report, for the police. "Pursuing" is prejudicial. Overruled.


Good luck with that.
 
2013-06-25 04:17:38 PM

kendelrio: Doesn't matter in this case. The question isn't "Who started the confrontation?". The question is "Did GZ fear for his life enough to use deadly force?"


If this is legally correct, how the fark is that supposed to work? The term self "defense" usually implies it's being done by the non-aggressor. If that's out the window, where does "defense" end?

Assuming things happened according to GZ's account, if the fight had gone the other way couldn't TM claim he had to beat GZ to death because he saw a gun and feared for his life?

In fact, couldn't you just start shooting at someone and if they fire back, kill them and claim self defense? I mean, they could have killed you with that deadly force they were using to defend themselves...
 
2013-06-25 04:18:29 PM

ChaosStar: frepnog: MFAWG: What (and remember this phrase, because you're going to hear it in the prosecution's closing argument several times) was the 'sequence of events' that led up to this altercation?

here is what I think happened based on all available evidence, witness accounts and Zimmerman's own statements.

Zimmerman left his home.  He saw Trayvon acting "suspicious".  He calls the cops.  Trayvon notices that he has been seen, and tries to intimidate Zimmerman by acting tough and pretending to be armed.  Trayvon walks away.  Zimmerman exits his vehicle and tries to keep Trayvon in sight while speaking to cops.  Trayvon, realizing Zimmerman is on the phone, possibly with police, runs.  Zimmerman pursues until dispatch says "we don't need you to do that" and stops.  Trayvon, pissed that he has been watched, decides to loop back to teach Zimmerman a lesson about watching people.  Trayvon proceeds to Zimmerman's location and punches him in the face, breaking his nose and knocking him down.  Trayvon mounts Zimmerman and begins to beat the shiat out of him.  Zimmerman's jacket pulls up exposing a weapon.  Trayvon says something to the effect of "you are gonna die tonight" and goes for the weapon.  Zimmerman gets the weapon from its holster and fires one shot.  Trayvon dies.

Totally 100 percent accurate?  Possibly not, but I'd wager is very very close to what actually occurred and is a far cry from "Zimmerman stalked and murdered an innocent black child".  It is the sequence of events lined out by all of the available evidence.

Pretty much spot on


I would like to add my $0.02 on that. From everything I have read, this is quite clear to me that GZ is a wannabe tough guy desperately in need of a pair. He got scared by the confrontation and pulled the gun way before average person would think about that doing that.

So, from my point of view: TM did nothing that he shouldn't have done. Anyone who gets chased and feel threaten by someone would want to hit back, if possible. It was possible for TM, and he did.

GZ made several bad calls.
- Assuming TM was up to something just because he is black.
- Didn't got back even after suggested by the operator.
- Created the whole situation that ended up a kid being dead.

So, lets recap, if GZ walks free, you can be a kid walking home, do absolutely nothing wrong, still be dead, and that would be no one's fault.

I do not propose any solution, but something is wrong with this scenario.
 
2013-06-25 04:20:38 PM

Satanic_Hamster: Maybe the reason more kids haven't been raped in that neighborhood is that Zimmerman had to move out and people know his face.  We don't know that he wasn't following Martin with plans to rape him.  Alone in the raid, with clearly no one around is a good way to do it.  If only Martin hadn't just laid there being raped like an alter boy, he would still be alive today.


Another good example. Thank's for participating in the exercise!
 
2013-06-25 04:22:04 PM

Garble: If this is legally correct, how the fark is that supposed to work? The term self "defense" usually implies it's being done by the non-aggressor. If that's out the window, where does "defense" end?

Assuming things happened according to GZ's account, if the fight had gone the other way couldn't TM claim he had to beat GZ to death because he saw a gun and feared for his life?

In fact, couldn't you just start shooting at someone and if they fire back, kill them and claim self defense? I mean, they could have killed you with that deadly force they were using to defend themselves...


Every Zimmerman thread you'll get a few people who make this claim.  A few of the more trolling cracker ones have claimed:
If you walk up to a black guy you don't know, start yelling "n*****" and start beating the crap out of him, you can then shoot him if pulls a knife and be guilty of no crimes what so ever.
 
2013-06-25 04:22:57 PM
mayIFark

He got scared by the confrontation and pulled the gun way before average person would think about that doing that.

We have no evidence of that whatsoever.
 
2013-06-25 04:27:06 PM
Little off topic, but the defense attorney with the paisley tie reminds me of a tall, flamboyant Martin Short.
 
2013-06-25 04:28:46 PM

CliChe Guevara: ChaosStar: This blows holes in both of you saying Martin didn't confront Zimmerman, Zimmerman hunted him down, etc.
Martin walked up to him and asked him a question

How in the hell are so many of you people entirely unable to separate out any fact from your fantasy.

Somehow you take that if Martin spoke first, it somehow also proves that Martin 1)sought out Zimmerman 2) approached him, -and- 3) spoke first.
Only one of those things is even possibly known, the other two you made up from whole cloth. Can you even tell which one anymore? Holy crap some of you people have scary, volatile minds.


So Martin just screamed at the top of his lungs "hey why are you following me" to thin air, from a hundred yards away? Then she somehow just left out dialog that happened prior to that?
She says pretty much the exact same thing Zimmerman says happened, just with bias to Martin which is to be expected.
I know, facts that refute you can be really hard to accept.
 
2013-06-25 04:29:10 PM

mayIFark: something is wrong with this scenario.


Allow me to help.

mayIFark: From everything I have read, this is quite clear to me


That's a bad start.

mayIFark: He got scared by the confrontation and pulled the gun


This is an assertion, not a fact.

mayIFark: So, from my point of view:


I'm guessing that is not "in full view of what unfolded".

mayIFark: TM did nothing that he shouldn't have done


Really?

mayIFark: Anyone who gets chased and feel threaten by someone would want to hit back, if possible. It was possible for TM, and he did.


Hit back? Well, let's just say that initiating a physical confrontation with a person following you could lead to your being injured or killed, and by initiating it, you have given them permission to "hit back".

mayIFark: Assuming TM was up to something just because he


George gave the reason he called. "Because black" isn't one of them.

mayIFark: Didn't got back even after suggested by the operator.


Another non-factual assertion.

mayIFark: So, lets recap, if GZ walks free, you can be a kid walking home, do absolutely nothing wrong, still be dead, and that would be no one's fault.


Inaccurate talking points lead to an inaccurate conclusion.
 
2013-06-25 04:29:41 PM
Bontesla:

What's incredibly frustrating is that both could have done several things to diffuse the situation. I give more leniency to the teenager because of his age and inexperience. I expect more of Zimmerman.


My hope is that this incident, if nothing else, will serve as a teachable moment. We teach our daughters to avoid strangers, but we don't always do the same with our sons. I was a cocky 17 year old at one time myself. And like many other guys that age, I never gave much thought to my own safety when I was out alone at night. I figured I could take care of myself. But this incident should underscore the point that you just never know who you might run up against.

Avoiding confrontation might seem like a punk move, but hell...I'd rather be a punk than a corpse.
 
2013-06-25 04:31:02 PM

mayIFark: ChaosStar: frepnog: MFAWG: What (and remember this phrase, because you're going to hear it in the prosecution's closing argument several times) was the 'sequence of events' that led up to this altercation?

here is what I think happened based on all available evidence, witness accounts and Zimmerman's own statements.

Zimmerman left his home.  He saw Trayvon acting "suspicious".  He calls the cops.  Trayvon notices that he has been seen, and tries to intimidate Zimmerman by acting tough and pretending to be armed.  Trayvon walks away.  Zimmerman exits his vehicle and tries to keep Trayvon in sight while speaking to cops.  Trayvon, realizing Zimmerman is on the phone, possibly with police, runs.  Zimmerman pursues until dispatch says "we don't need you to do that" and stops.  Trayvon, pissed that he has been watched, decides to loop back to teach Zimmerman a lesson about watching people.  Trayvon proceeds to Zimmerman's location and punches him in the face, breaking his nose and knocking him down.  Trayvon mounts Zimmerman and begins to beat the shiat out of him.  Zimmerman's jacket pulls up exposing a weapon.  Trayvon says something to the effect of "you are gonna die tonight" and goes for the weapon.  Zimmerman gets the weapon from its holster and fires one shot.  Trayvon dies.

Totally 100 percent accurate?  Possibly not, but I'd wager is very very close to what actually occurred and is a far cry from "Zimmerman stalked and murdered an innocent black child".  It is the sequence of events lined out by all of the available evidence.

Pretty much spot on

I would like to add my $0.02 on that. From everything I have read, this is quite clear to me that GZ is a wannabe tough guy desperately in need of a pair. He got scared by the confrontation and pulled the gun way before average person would think about that doing that.

So, from my point of view: TM did nothing that he shouldn't have done. Anyone who gets chased and feel threaten by someone would want to hit back, i ...





Read the damn gf's statements to the cops. Martin WASN'T scared. It's well established. And another thing calling a 6 foot seventeen year old a kid is bs.
 
2013-06-25 04:32:16 PM

mayIFark: I would like to add my $0.02 on that. From everything I have read, this is quite clear to me that GZ is a wannabe tough guy desperately in need of a pair. He got scared by the confrontation and pulled the gun way before average person would think about that doing that.

So, from my point of view: TM did nothing that he shouldn't have done. Anyone who gets chased and feel threaten by someone would want to hit back, if possible. It was possible for TM, and he did.

GZ made several bad calls.
- Assuming TM was up to something just because he is black.
- Didn't got back even after suggested by the operator.
- Created the whole situation that ended up a kid being dead.

So, lets recap, if GZ walks free, you can be a kid walking home, do absolutely nothing wrong, still be dead, and that would be no one's fault.

I do not propose any solution, but something is wrong with this scenario.


What in the hell are you talking about?
You gotta be trollin right?
 
2013-06-25 04:32:49 PM

Garble: kendelrio: Doesn't matter in this case. The question isn't "Who started the confrontation?". The question is "Did GZ fear for his life enough to use deadly force?"

If this is legally correct, how the fark is that supposed to work? The term self "defense" usually implies it's being done by the non-aggressor. If that's out the window, where does "defense" end?

Assuming things happened according to GZ's account, if the fight had gone the other way couldn't TM claim he had to beat GZ to death because he saw a gun and feared for his life?

In fact, couldn't you just start shooting at someone and if they fire back, kill them and claim self defense? I mean, they could have killed you with that deadly force they were using to defend themselves...



Again, the law states:  "A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

I'm going to try to put this in simple terms for you:

So if you shoot at someone, that is a felony and the defense law does not apply to you.. If you are merely following someone, that is not a felony and the law DOES apply to you.

If things went according to GZ's account, then when young TM hit him, then according to the law he (and I'll quote directly so there is no ambiguity):

"has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself.


Please note the law makes no distinction between aggressor and agressee(?). Even if it did, young TM confronting GZ after GZ "lost him" (to quote the call), makes young TM the aggressor....

Please print the law out and put it somewhere conspicuous so you can refer to it before posting out of your ass please.

/I know.... Let's have a spellin' contest
 
2013-06-25 04:32:51 PM

Bontesla: ChaosStar: Bontesla:

From the girlfriend: "He said he lost the man. I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run."
"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for.' And the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

Trayvon himself backs up that Zimmerman lost him, Trayvon said he wasn't going to run, so he couldn't have been very scared like most people claim.
They key thing here is Trayvon speaking first, then Zimmerman replying. That is Martin starting the altercation that ended up with his death.

Actually, that's quite inconsistent with what you're saying. You claimed that Martin likely jumped Zimmerman and to support your argument you're referencing statements that seem to suggest Martin was briskly walking to get away.

I think it's entirely possible that Martin ducked into the shadows until he thought he lost Zimmerman. Then he informed the girl. She suggested he run now and he says he'll try walking away quickly.

Zimmerman reappears and the dialogue takes place.


Personally I think he took of running and once he got around the corner he looked back and thought he lost him and started to walk again. We know he initially ran because Zimmerman said he was running. And from what his girlfriend said he thought he lost him.
 
2013-06-25 04:33:50 PM

Facetious_Speciest: mayIFark

He got scared by the confrontation and pulled the gun way before average person would think about that doing that.

We have no evidence of that whatsoever.


Why conveniently skip out the line just before, where I clearly state that this is my opinion? Let's go past that, because it does not matter.

The fact to the matter is
- TM did nothing wrong. Anyone who gets followed, feel cornered/ feel threaten by someone would want to make the first hit (assuming he did, if he did not even better), as that would give him a better chance of survival.
- He is dead.

So, to repeat myself, a kid walking home, doing nothing wrong, is dead, and that's no ones fault. Makes no sense. Just to compare, if he was walking past your house, a branch of your tree fell on his head and he was dead, you would have been liable. This. makes. no. sense.
 
2013-06-25 04:34:03 PM

s2s2s2: I Browse: I sincerely wish he'd just stayed home that evening and finished watching the game with his dad.

His dad wasn't home. He was playing video games when he left, not watching a game.



Ah, didn't know that. Regardless...I wish the kid had stayed at home that night.
 
2013-06-25 04:36:00 PM

Mid_mo_mad_man: Read the damn gf's statements to the cops. Martin WASN'T scared. It's well established. And another thing calling a 6 foot seventeen year old a kid is bs.


If Martin had been in possession of a firearm, and simply shot GZ dead for following him, he'd already be serving a murder sentence after being tried as a man.


The special prosecutor charged a 12 year old as an adult, for murder.
 
2013-06-25 04:37:11 PM

mayIFark: Facetious_Speciest: mayIFark

He got scared by the confrontation and pulled the gun way before average person would think about that doing that.

We have no evidence of that whatsoever.

Why conveniently skip out the line just before, where I clearly state that this is my opinion? Let's go past that, because it does not matter.

The fact to the matter is
- TM did nothing wrong. Anyone who gets followed, feel cornered/ feel threaten by someone would want to make the first hit (assuming he did, if he did not even better), as that would give him a better chance of survival.
- He is dead.

So, to repeat myself, a kid walking home, doing nothing wrong, is dead, and that's no ones fault. Makes no sense. Just to compare, if he was walking past your house, a branch of your tree fell on his head and he was dead, you would have been liable. This. makes. no. sense.


It's BOTH of their faults.  You can determine which is MORE at fault, because that's a matter of opinion, but TM allegedly attacked a man who had been following him.  No, not ANYONE would want to get the first hit.  My response to someone following me would be either ignore them, or turn around and say something like "Something I can help you with, there, or are you just admiring my ass?  NTTAWWT"  GZ did wrong when he decided to play cops and robbers and did create this situation.  Is that not a reasonable takeaway from all this?
 
2013-06-25 04:37:38 PM
mayIFark

Why conveniently skip out the line just before, where I clearly state that this is my opinion? Let's go past that, because it does not matter.

It does. Watch:

The fact to the matter is
- TM did nothing wrong.


You don't know that. You're stating your opinions as fact. They're not.

So, to repeat myself, a kid walking home, doing nothing wrong, is dead, and that's no ones fault. Makes no sense.

Of course it makes no sense to you; you're imagining details and basing conclusions on them. We don't know who initiated the violence, period.

Do you get me? The things you're stating as facts are not facts; they're your conclusions, based on nothing.
 
2013-06-25 04:40:57 PM

I Browse: I wish the kid had stayed at home that night.


I wish that GZ hadn't had a gun on him. I wish Trayvon was still alive.

It's a bad situation, made worse by the evidence leaning toward a self defense acquittal, based on two people making the wrong decisions that they were both justified in making.

It's just messed up, and kinda shows life(and death) is just going to suck, sometimes.
 
2013-06-25 04:41:46 PM

ChaosStar:  do not propose any solution, but something is wrong with this scenario.

What in the hell are you talking about?
You gotta be trollin right?


If you call this trolling, then trolling. Whatever. But I am merely pointing out the fallacy of the law, if he walks free. Did TM deserved to die that day? No. Yet, he is dead. Who is responsible?

There always has to be someone responsible, be it tornado, diarrhea, a dog or a person or whatever.

And anytime a person is responsible for someone's death, there is always consequences. If GZ walks free, what is the consequence for him?
 
2013-06-25 04:41:55 PM

Facetious_Speciest: Two16

...something needs to curtail the chronic "uppity" problem we seem to be having lately, what with people of all stripes and colors demanding their rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness and all that.

So you're saying if a criminal that assaults you happens to be of African descent, defending yourself is racist because he's of African descent, and his assault is just his attempt at attaining equal rights.

Oh, you.



img.photobucket.com

The word you used was "blacks", specifically "American blacks".  Your footwork is impressive but I'm afraid even you can't backpeddle quick enough on this one.
 
2013-06-25 04:42:23 PM
s2s2s2:
It's a bad situation, made worse by the evidence leaning toward a self defense acquittal, based on two people making the wrong decisions that they were both justified in making.

Legally justified, that is.  Though I suppose it can be argued that TM would have been guilty of simple assault, but that's now a moot point.  Whether either of them were morally justified in their actions, that's a value judgment we all have to make on our own of course.
 
2013-06-25 04:42:58 PM

Mid_mo_mad_man: nekom: gimmegimme:
The overall theme in these threads is the astounding lack of empathy some have for Martin and their inability to acknowledge--even if they think the shooting is 100% justified--how Zimmerman could have made bad choices that led to the death of a kid. (Or a "thug," depending on who you talk to.)

Of course he did!  Most people here are arguing points of law, statutes, etc.  Very few (though there are some) have a complete lack of empathy and hatred for the kid.  A 17 year old kid is dead who didn't deserve to die.  That's farked up and it sucks.  Zimmerman made poor decisions in following him for no reason, Martin probably made the poor decision of deciding to be tough, and decided to prove his point to the wrong person.  Did he deserve to die for it?  NO!  But it's a mistake in judgment for sure, just as Zimmerman made the mistake of getting involved with him in the first place.  Plenty of blame to go around, and there aren't any winners here, regardless of what happens at trial.  It's just a bad deal all around.

I will flat out say it. Martin deserved to die that night. He could have done countless things to stop the chain of events. He chose not and to further escalate them. Zimmerman is no saint but he didn't murder that boy.


Well played, sir.
 
2013-06-25 04:43:14 PM

s2s2s2: Mid_mo_mad_man: Read the damn gf's statements to the cops. Martin WASN'T scared. It's well established. And another thing calling a 6 foot seventeen year old a kid is bs.


If Martin had been in possession of a firearm, and simply shot GZ dead for following him, he'd already be serving a murder sentence after being tried as a man.


Because in that situation, deadly force is not required to prevent death or great bodily harm


The special prosecutor charged a 12 year old as an adult, for murder.


You mean this angel that abused and killed his two year old brother?


Find better straw men and come back.

 
2013-06-25 04:44:39 PM

Mid_mo_mad_man: Read the damn gf's statements to the cops. Martin WASN'T scared. It's well established. And another thing calling a 6 foot seventeen year old a kid is bs.


He might be physically intimidating, but mentally he's a kid. How many 17 year olds do you know with decent reasoning skills? Hell, with boys, it's past college before they get past the "hey y'all watch this" phase (if they ever do...)
 
2013-06-25 04:44:48 PM

mayIFark: Facetious_Speciest: mayIFark

He got scared by the confrontation and pulled the gun way before average person would think about that doing that.

We have no evidence of that whatsoever.

Why conveniently skip out the line just before, where I clearly state that this is my opinion? Let's go past that, because it does not matter.

The fact to the matter is
- TM did nothing wrong. Anyone who gets followed, feel cornered/ feel threaten by someone would want to make the first hit (assuming he did, if he did not even better), as that would give him a better chance of survival.
- He is dead.

So, to repeat myself, a kid walking home, doing nothing wrong, is dead, and that's no ones fault. Makes no sense. Just to compare, if he was walking past your house, a branch of your tree fell on his head and he was dead, you would have been liable. This. makes. no. sense.


The issue is not proving whether Martin did "something wrong." It's whether the State can prove GZ did not act in self-defense.

It's entirely possible for two men to reasonably (but mistakenly) believe the other poses an imminent threat of harm. There is no rule that says that whenever someone dies in an intentional shooting, one of them must have committed a crime. The law requires that you act based on reasonable belief, not act perfectly, or wait to act until you have perfect information.

It's also possible (as is the case here) that the State could have insufficient evidence either way. That means GZ, who is presumed innocent, should walk.
 
2013-06-25 04:45:08 PM
Two16

The word you used was "blacks", specifically "American blacks". Your footwork is impressive but I'm afraid even you can't backpeddle quick enough on this one.

Are you retarded? Do a quick search of the thread for "American blacks."
 
2013-06-25 04:46:42 PM

mayIFark: Facetious_Speciest: mayIFark

He got scared by the confrontation and pulled the gun way before average person would think about that doing that.

We have no evidence of that whatsoever.

Why conveniently skip out the line just before, where I clearly state that this is my opinion? Let's go past that, because it does not matter.

The fact to the matter is
- TM did nothing wrong. Anyone who gets followed, feel cornered/ feel threaten by someone would want to make the first hit (assuming he did, if he did not even better), as that would give him a better chance of survival.
- He is dead.

So, to repeat myself, a kid walking home, doing nothing wrong, is dead, and that's no ones fault. Makes no sense. Just to compare, if he was walking past your house, a branch of your tree fell on his head and he was dead, you would have been liable. This. makes. no. sense.




There's a lot wrong with your thinking. Let me set you straight. 6' and 17 doesn't equal a kid. Following someone is neither a threat nor a reason to hit. It's within my rights to ask you what your doing. It's with in your rights to run, tell me to piss off etc. It's not in his rights to strike someone.
 
2013-06-25 04:46:56 PM

I Browse: Bontesla:

What's incredibly frustrating is that both could have done several things to diffuse the situation. I give more leniency to the teenager because of his age and inexperience. I expect more of Zimmerman.


My hope is that this incident, if nothing else, will serve as a teachable moment. We teach our daughters to avoid strangers, but we don't always do the same with our sons. I was a cocky 17 year old at one time myself. And like many other guys that age, I never gave much thought to my own safety when I was out alone at night. I figured I could take care of myself. But this incident should underscore the point that you just never know who you might run up against.

Avoiding confrontation might seem like a punk move, but hell...I'd rather be a punk than a corpse.


But, to be honest, I'm not black. I know that many black parents teach their children to leave their wallets out in the open while in the car so as to avoid reaching near their belts.

I know that many black parents teach their children that running can raise suspicion so avoid running.

When I hear that Martin said he won't run but that he'll walk very fast, I'm reminded of that he could have been taught that.

I think Martin could have behaved differently to avoid his death. But I place a larger blame on Zimmerman.
 
2013-06-25 04:48:37 PM
nekom:
It's BOTH of their faults.  You can determine which is MORE at fault, because that's a matter of opinion, but TM allegedly attacked a man who had been following him.  No, not ANYONE would want to get the first hit.  My response to someone following me would be either ignore them, or turn around and say something like "Something I can help you with, there, or are you just admiring my ass?  NTTAWWT"  GZ did wrong when he decided to play cops and robbers and did create this situation.  Is that not a reasonable takeaway from all this?

You would ask about admiring your ass ONLY if you did not feel threaten. If a girl feels she would be raped, if a kid feels he would be kidnapped, or if an adult felt he would be murdered, it would be wise to through a punch and run as soon as the follower is down. TM didn't run, but there is nothing wrong with making sure the follower would not be able to keep chasing, for TM's own safety. He is still not at fault for any of his action. Yet, he is dead. Who is responsible for this death?
 
2013-06-25 04:51:03 PM

ChaosStar: This is the actual dialog between her and the prosecutor. Take from it what you will, but remember she has been caught lying already to the authorities over this so there's no telling how accurate this is.


That is not 100% accurate. At one point in the interview, she asks "you want that too?" in a manner that makes it clear that she's spinning a story she believes will best help the case. Listen to the audio recording of her interview and you'll see. It's a little disturbing that you were able to find a transcript with that omitted.
 
2013-06-25 04:51:06 PM
s2s2s2:

I wish that GZ hadn't had a gun on him. I wish Trayvon was still alive.

It's a bad situation, made worse by the evidence leaning toward a self defense acquittal, based on two people making the wrong decisions that they were both justified in making.

It's just messed up, and kinda shows life(and death) is just going to suck, sometimes.



Well, as I said above, my hope is that a good lesson might come out of all this. Young men need to start taking their safety as seriously as young women do, especially when they're out alone at night. Avoid strangers. Stay in well lit areas. And if you have the opportunity to flee, do so.

Confrontation, even if you feel justified, is simply not worth it. You never know who you might encounter or what they're capable of. Don't underestimate anyone.
 
2013-06-25 04:52:09 PM

mayIFark: ChaosStar:  do not propose any solution, but something is wrong with this scenario.

What in the hell are you talking about?
You gotta be trollin right?

If you call this trolling, then trolling. Whatever. But I am merely pointing out the fallacy of the law, if he walks free. Did TM deserved to die that day? No. Yet, he is dead. Who is responsible?

There always has to be someone responsible, be it tornado, diarrhea, a dog or a person or whatever.

And anytime a person is responsible for someone's death, there is always consequences. If GZ walks free, what is the consequence for him?


No. It is not true that someone must be responsible. Even in cases of an intentional shooting and death, the law does NOT require that someone be blamed.

It can be a case of mutual mistake, or simply a lack of sufficient evidence to assign blame.
 
2013-06-25 04:52:44 PM

s2s2s2: Perpetuous Procrastination: Zimmerman is likely going to avoid conviction simply for lack of evidence, not because he actually is innocent; there's a difference.

Damn straight. This is all I've been saying. Hell. Maybe the reason Trayvon isn't alive today, is that no one caught him breaking into houses. We don't know that he wasn't casing houses. Alone in the rain, with nearly no one around is a good way to do it. If only Zimmerman's woman would have done the shopping like a good woman, George never would have crossed paths with Martin.

Speculation is easy, and often misleading.


I'm no criminal mastermind, but I would think 7pm would be a very poor time to be casing houses. People are usually home and awake around that time.
 
2013-06-25 04:53:44 PM
QueenMamaBee: Mid_mo_mad_man: Read the damn gf's statements to the cops. Martin WASN'T scared. It's well established. And another thing calling a 6 foot seventeen year old a kid is bs.

He might be physically intimidating, but mentally he's a kid. How many 17 year olds do you know with decent reasoning skills? Hell, with boys, it's past college before they get past the "hey y'all watch this" phase (if they ever do...)


Exactly, which is why it might make sense for him to decide he was going to beat up the strange man who was following him.  Not because he was black, or a "thug", or anything like that.  But because he was a 17 year old male.  And 17 year males make really bad decisions all the time regardless of race, color, or creed.
 
2013-06-25 04:55:50 PM
mayIFark:
You would ask about admiring your ass ONLY if you did not feel threaten. If a girl feels she would be raped, if a kid feels he would be kidnapped, or if an adult felt he would be murdered, it would be wise to through a punch and run as soon as the follower is down. TM didn't run, but there is nothing wrong with making sure the follower would not be able to keep chasing, for TM's own safety. He is still not at fault for any of his action. Yet, he is dead. Who is responsible for this death?

Well of course that would be situational, and the part about admiring my ass was just a joke.  More like a simple "Something I can do for you?" would be my default response.  Had TM said something like that, he'd be alive today.  I'm not saying he deserved to die, he absolutely did not, but he would have had a simple akward conversation with the town idiot, the cops would say "He's a kid whose dad lives here, Mr. Zimmerman, now would you PLEASE stop calling us every time you see a black guy?" and that would have been it.

Who is responsible for Trayvon's death?  A whole mess of farked up circumstances culminating in a perfect storm and involving two people who made a few key critical errors in judgment.
 
2013-06-25 04:57:04 PM

s2s2s2: I Browse: I wish the kid had stayed at home that night.

I wish that GZ hadn't had a gun on him. I wish Trayvon was still alive.

It's a bad situation, made worse by the evidence leaning toward a self defense acquittal, based on two people making the wrong decisions that they were both justified in making.

It's just messed up, and kinda shows life(and death) is just going to suck, sometimes.


Pretty much this.

Zimmerman is a grade-A farkwit who, I hope, will never wear a badge or hold any position of legal authority. Martin, while tragically dead, was too busy being proud/tough to avoid the aforementioned nincompoop who, in hindsight, was the most dangerous thing going bump in the night.
 
2013-06-25 04:57:34 PM

kendelrio: Find better straw men and come back.


I think you misunderstand me. Well, I know it, but I want to be polite.

Hi!
 
2013-06-25 04:58:13 PM
Perpetuous Procrastination

Zimmerman is a grade-A farkwit who, I hope, will never wear a badge or hold any position of legal authority.

Not much chance of that, I think.
 
2013-06-25 04:58:40 PM

MagSeven: I'm no criminal mastermind, but I would think 7pm would be a very poor time to be casing houses. People are usually home and awake around that time.


"speculation" "misleading"
 
2013-06-25 04:58:43 PM

Thoguh: QueenMamaBee: Mid_mo_mad_man: Read the damn gf's statements to the cops. Martin WASN'T scared. It's well established. And another thing calling a 6 foot seventeen year old a kid is bs.

He might be physically intimidating, but mentally he's a kid. How many 17 year olds do you know with decent reasoning skills? Hell, with boys, it's past college before they get past the "hey y'all watch this" phase (if they ever do...)

Exactly, which is why it might make sense for him to decide he was going to beat up the strange man who was following him.  Not because he was black, or a "thug", or anything like that.  But because he was a 17 year old male.  And 17 year males make really bad decisions all the time regardless of race, color, or creed.




Bullshait. Martin was only a few months away from being old enough to vote, marry, get drafted etc. Which is more then old enough to know not to hit people and start fights.
 
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