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(CNN)   Zimmerman defense lawyer apologizes to jury for telling knock-knock joke about them in his opening statement, asks them if they've heard the one about Trayvon Martin's favorite flavor of Skittles   (cnn.com) divider line 933
    More: Dumbass, George Zimmerman, Skittles, opening statement, Mark O'Mara, Angela Corey, next of kin, Benjamin Crump, Dean Martin  
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6560 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Jun 2013 at 8:15 AM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-25 03:27:38 PM

ChaosStar: CliChe Guevara: PoochUMD: Who said anything about stand your ground? I've read for the past 16 months that Zimmerman stalked Martin through neighborhood, some even claim that he caught him and/or kept him from continuing on his way home. Explain how that is possible only to have the confrontation happen 4 minutes later, only 100 feet away.

 100 feet away from where the truck wound up you mean? Remember, in the truck driving was when Martin realized he was being followed. Zimmerman only stopped and exited the truck when Martin started running -away- from the road. The confrontation happened very close to where Zimmerman would have first lost sight of Martin rounding that corner into the alley.
 Martin probably went to ground there, attempting to hide. Statistically this is what many people do - what police are trained to look for when they lose sight of a suspect actually, because more often than not people hide as soon as they can - and Zimmerman has even directly stated Martin was hiding, and the phone call you can infer he thought it at the time, too.

 If Martin was hiding in the immediate area that Zimmerman looked for him, that would explain the timing and the location and why he didn't move from there. Zimmerman may have found him or not, Martin may have left his hiding spot to confront or not, it may have been a sheer accident of them meeting again (Zimmerman went past where Martin was likely hiding and kept going, then on the way back to the truck would have passed right by that spot again, at which point he could have found Martin, martin may have thought it was safe to head home and came out, or Martin came out to confront him).  We don't just know.

 What we do knowit that its not any big mystery why the confrontation happened where it did, and it didn't require either one to double back (intentionally anyway - Zimmerman did go by that spot twice, though it may have been still during his hunt, or may have just been going back to the truck after giving up the hunt).

 Th ...

Except Martin was on the phone with his girlfriend.
you don't exactly talk to someone on the phone if you're trying to hide your whereabouts from someone a few feet away.
As Zimmerman couldn't hear Martin on the phone, it's pretty safe to say he wasn't within ear shot so that would require coming back to Zimmerman.


Was he talking on the phone the entire time? At any point did he lower his voice or stop talking?
 
2013-06-25 03:28:25 PM

frepnog: MFAWG: What (and remember this phrase, because you're going to hear it in the prosecution's closing argument several times) was the 'sequence of events' that led up to this altercation?

here is what I think happened based on all available evidence, witness accounts and Zimmerman's own statements.

Zimmerman left his home.  He saw Trayvon acting "suspicious".  He calls the cops.  Trayvon notices that he has been seen, and tries to intimidate Zimmerman by acting tough and pretending to be armed.  Trayvon walks away.  Zimmerman exits his vehicle and tries to keep Trayvon in sight while speaking to cops.  Trayvon, realizing Zimmerman is on the phone, possibly with police, runs.  Zimmerman pursues until dispatch says "we don't need you to do that" and stops.  Trayvon, pissed that he has been watched, decides to loop back to teach Zimmerman a lesson about watching people.  Trayvon proceeds to Zimmerman's location and punches him in the face, breaking his nose and knocking him down.  Trayvon mounts Zimmerman and begins to beat the shiat out of him.  Zimmerman's jacket pulls up exposing a weapon.  Trayvon says something to the effect of "you are gonna die tonight" and goes for the weapon.  Zimmerman gets the weapon from its holster and fires one shot.  Trayvon dies.

Totally 100 percent accurate?  Possibly not, but I'd wager is very very close to what actually occurred and is a far cry from "Zimmerman stalked and murdered an innocent black child".  It is the sequence of events lined out by all of the available evidence.


Pretty much spot on
 
2013-06-25 03:28:51 PM

frepnog: Trayvon notices that he has been seen, and tries to intimidate Zimmerman by acting tough and pretending to be armed.


Who's that on the what now?
 
2013-06-25 03:29:43 PM

frepnog: MFAWG: What (and remember this phrase, because you're going to hear it in the prosecution's closing argument several times) was the 'sequence of events' that led up to this altercation?

here is what I think happened based on all available evidence, witness accounts and Zimmerman's own statements.

Zimmerman left his home.  He saw Trayvon acting "suspicious".  He calls the cops.  Trayvon notices that he has been seen, and tries to intimidate Zimmerman by acting tough and pretending to be armed.  Trayvon walks away.  Zimmerman exits his vehicle and tries to keep Trayvon in sight while speaking to cops.  Trayvon, realizing Zimmerman is on the phone, possibly with police, runs.  Zimmerman pursues until dispatch says "we don't need you to do that" and stops.  Trayvon, pissed that he has been watched, decides to loop back to teach Zimmerman a lesson about watching people.  Trayvon proceeds to Zimmerman's location and punches him in the face, breaking his nose and knocking him down.  Trayvon mounts Zimmerman and begins to beat the shiat out of him.  Zimmerman's jacket pulls up exposing a weapon.  Trayvon says something to the effect of "you are gonna die tonight" and goes for the weapon.  Zimmerman gets the weapon from its holster and fires one shot.  Trayvon dies.

Totally 100 percent accurate?  Possibly not, but I'd wager is very very close to what actually occurred and is a far cry from "Zimmerman stalked and murdered an innocent black child".  It is the sequence of events lined out by all of the available evidence.


The evidence doesn't actually convey anything conclusively. That's why the Prosecution is likely going to use it to offer an alternative story as to what happened.
 
2013-06-25 03:29:51 PM

Bontesla: ChaosStar: CliChe Guevara: PoochUMD: Who said anything about stand your ground? I've read for the past 16 months that Zimmerman stalked Martin through neighborhood, some even claim that he caught him and/or kept him from continuing on his way home. Explain how that is possible only to have the confrontation happen 4 minutes later, only 100 feet away.

 100 feet away from where the truck wound up you mean? Remember, in the truck driving was when Martin realized he was being followed. Zimmerman only stopped and exited the truck when Martin started running -away- from the road. The confrontation happened very close to where Zimmerman would have first lost sight of Martin rounding that corner into the alley.
 Martin probably went to ground there, attempting to hide. Statistically this is what many people do - what police are trained to look for when they lose sight of a suspect actually, because more often than not people hide as soon as they can - and Zimmerman has even directly stated Martin was hiding, and the phone call you can infer he thought it at the time, too.

 If Martin was hiding in the immediate area that Zimmerman looked for him, that would explain the timing and the location and why he didn't move from there. Zimmerman may have found him or not, Martin may have left his hiding spot to confront or not, it may have been a sheer accident of them meeting again (Zimmerman went past where Martin was likely hiding and kept going, then on the way back to the truck would have passed right by that spot again, at which point he could have found Martin, martin may have thought it was safe to head home and came out, or Martin came out to confront him).  We don't just know.

 What we do knowit that its not any big mystery why the confrontation happened where it did, and it didn't require either one to double back (intentionally anyway - Zimmerman did go by that spot twice, though it may have been still during his hunt, or may have just been going back to the truck afte ...


According to testimony he was on the phone right up to the point he confronted Zimmerman, talking with her.
 
2013-06-25 03:30:03 PM
gimmegimme:
The overall theme in these threads is the astounding lack of empathy some have for Martin and their inability to acknowledge--even if they think the shooting is 100% justified--how Zimmerman could have made bad choices that led to the death of a kid. (Or a "thug," depending on who you talk to.)

Of course he did!  Most people here are arguing points of law, statutes, etc.  Very few (though there are some) have a complete lack of empathy and hatred for the kid.  A 17 year old kid is dead who didn't deserve to die.  That's farked up and it sucks.  Zimmerman made poor decisions in following him for no reason, Martin probably made the poor decision of deciding to be tough, and decided to prove his point to the wrong person.  Did he deserve to die for it?  NO!  But it's a mistake in judgment for sure, just as Zimmerman made the mistake of getting involved with him in the first place.  Plenty of blame to go around, and there aren't any winners here, regardless of what happens at trial.  It's just a bad deal all around.
 
2013-06-25 03:32:58 PM
gimmegimme

The overall theme in these threads is the astounding lack of empathy some have for Martin and their inability to acknowledge--even if they think the shooting is 100% justified--how Zimmerman could have made bad choices that led to the death of a kid. (Or a "thug," depending on who you talk to.)

Mistakes were made. I don't know why anyone would deny this.

Some folks won't even acknowledge that Zimmy was in armed pursuit, even though both terms are completely accurate.

Sure, it's accurate. It's just irrelevant and, honestly, seems somewhat emotional and prejudicial. I sometimes go on armed grocery shopping expeditions; it doesn't mean that if someone attacks me, I have to let myself be killed. It doesn't mean anything save that I was shopping for groceries, and happened to have a weapon for whatever reason. If it means anything else to another person, they have some psychological issues regarding weapons they need to work out.

To think otherwise is to literally prove my point that one has a personal issue with weapons and those who carry them, which are personal issues that have no bearing on other peoples' conduct or guilt thereby in any manner.

That being said, I don't know why some people just can't believe he ended his coincidentally-armed pursuit when he said he did. Surely it's possible, right?
 
2013-06-25 03:33:13 PM

nekom: gimmegimme:
The overall theme in these threads is the astounding lack of empathy some have for Martin and their inability to acknowledge--even if they think the shooting is 100% justified--how Zimmerman could have made bad choices that led to the death of a kid. (Or a "thug," depending on who you talk to.)

Of course he did!  Most people here are arguing points of law, statutes, etc.  Very few (though there are some) have a complete lack of empathy and hatred for the kid.  A 17 year old kid is dead who didn't deserve to die.  That's farked up and it sucks.  Zimmerman made poor decisions in following him for no reason, Martin probably made the poor decision of deciding to be tough, and decided to prove his point to the wrong person.  Did he deserve to die for it?  NO!  But it's a mistake in judgment for sure, just as Zimmerman made the mistake of getting involved with him in the first place.  Plenty of blame to go around, and there aren't any winners here, regardless of what happens at trial.  It's just a bad deal all around.


This is actually what most of us are saying.  We have empathy, but we believe that looking at the evidence, Zimmerman should be considered not guilty for second degree murder.  The kid shouldn't have died and the whole situation sucks.  That doesn't mean you get to be emotional and demand mob justice.
 
2013-06-25 03:33:41 PM
I think the man who was "tired of those a-holes getting away" was probably the aggressor.. So I'm assuming he tried to apprehend the "effin punk" ? Isn't that right GZ?
 
2013-06-25 03:33:50 PM

ChaosStar: Bontesla: ChaosStar: CliChe Guevara: PoochUMD: Who said anything about stand your ground? I've read for the past 16 months that Zimmerman stalked Martin through neighborhood, some even claim that he caught him and/or kept him from continuing on his way home. Explain how that is possible only to have the confrontation happen 4 minutes later, only 100 feet away.

 100 feet away from where the truck wound up you mean? Remember, in the truck driving was when Martin realized he was being followed. Zimmerman only stopped and exited the truck when Martin started running -away- from the road. The confrontation happened very close to where Zimmerman would have first lost sight of Martin rounding that corner into the alley.
 Martin probably went to ground there, attempting to hide. Statistically this is what many people do - what police are trained to look for when they lose sight of a suspect actually, because more often than not people hide as soon as they can - and Zimmerman has even directly stated Martin was hiding, and the phone call you can infer he thought it at the time, too.

 If Martin was hiding in the immediate area that Zimmerman looked for him, that would explain the timing and the location and why he didn't move from there. Zimmerman may have found him or not, Martin may have left his hiding spot to confront or not, it may have been a sheer accident of them meeting again (Zimmerman went past where Martin was likely hiding and kept going, then on the way back to the truck would have passed right by that spot again, at which point he could have found Martin, martin may have thought it was safe to head home and came out, or Martin came out to confront him).  We don't just know.

 What we do knowit that its not any big mystery why the confrontation happened where it did, and it didn't require either one to double back (intentionally anyway - Zimmerman did go by that spot twice, though it may have been still during his hunt, or may have just been going back to the truck afte ...

According to testimony he was on the phone right up to the point he confronted Zimmerman, talking with her.


According to her deposition - did Martin pause or quiet at any point in time?
 
2013-06-25 03:33:59 PM

PoochUMD: gimmegimme:
And Zimmy chose to continue his armed pursuit on foot.

30 seconds ago you couldn't explain how there was a pursuit based on the evidence.


The fact that George Zimmerman says he's pursuing isn't enough for you?

Insanity. Complete insanity.
 
2013-06-25 03:34:15 PM

gimmegimme: frepnog: Trayvon notices that he has been seen, and tries to intimidate Zimmerman by acting tough and pretending to be armed.

Who's that on the what now?


If I had to guess, I'd imagine he's referring to the part in the 911 transcript where Zimmerman tells the dispatcher than Martin is looking at him and put his hand in his waistband.

i.imgur.com
 
2013-06-25 03:34:24 PM

manimal2878: Phinn: manimal2878: Phinn: manimal2878: Phinn: Neither the prosecution nor the court is following the law.

We should put the system on trial!!!

Phinn: In addition to having virtually zero comprehension of the rules of evidence and due process, do you also subscribe to the Statist Infallibility Principle?

Uh huh.  What's with your fetish for calling people statists.  Does it sound scarier than socialism in your mind?

Read the Montijo case, then retract and apologize for all of the errors you've made about the law of self-defense trials, and then I'll be glad to discuss these things with you.

I've already read it.  Too bad the jury instructions don't read the way you imagine them to.

So, you've made a complete ass of yourself, and couldn't look any sillier than if you'd put on clown shoes and worn your underwear on the outside of your pants, and have NOTHING to show where what I've SAID is incorrect.

But not satisfied with your reputation as a moron, you decide to IMAGINE that I "think" the Florida jury instructions are not what they really are.

First, the question of whether the standard jury instructions accurately reflect the law is a different issue.

But more importantly, it's not something I have ever discussed. So you have no idea what I "think."

If you're just going to imagine whatever pitiful facts about me you need to, in order to rescue your failing self-image, go ahead, but do it privately. No one wants to see your strawman abuse and mental masturbations.

Are you frothing at the mouth?  It sounds like it.


That's your imagination again.

I'm going to say something that may cause you to fly into a rage, but you still need to hear it -- Your imagination is not the same as reality.

Cogitate on that for a while. Let it sink in.
 
2013-06-25 03:34:56 PM
Bontesla:

From the girlfriend: "He said he lost the man. I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run."
"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for.' And the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

Trayvon himself backs up that Zimmerman lost him, Trayvon said he wasn't going to run, so he couldn't have been very scared like most people claim.
They key thing here is Trayvon speaking first, then Zimmerman replying. That is Martin starting the altercation that ended up with his death.
 
Ant
2013-06-25 03:35:20 PM

Misconduc: Not saying martin did, but everyone wants to show his 12 yr old baby face photos, how about the real photos of him - far cry different then the baby faced teenager.


You mean the tough guy face that every teenage boy has to put on in order to secure his standing in teenage boy culture? Is that the face you mean? If so, I think every teenage boy looks like that at some point.
 
2013-06-25 03:35:26 PM

gimmegimme: The overall theme in these threads is the astounding lack of empathy some have for Martin and their inability to acknowledge--even if they think the shooting is 100% justified--how Zimmerman could have made bad choices that led to the death of a kid. (Or a "thug," depending on who you talk to.)

Some folks won't even acknowledge that Zimmy was in armed pursuit, even though both terms are completely accurate.


ZImmerman made a poor choice in leaving his vehicle, but simply leaving his vehicle and being armed did not lead to Trayvon's death.  Zimmerman simply wanted the police to come and deal with the situation.  It is why he called them, after all.  Trayvon sealed his own fate when he decided that he would beat Zimmerman up.  I feel for Trayvon's family because losing a child, even a 17 year old gang banger wannabe like Trayvon HURTS.  However, if you go around beating people up, you kinda deserve it when one of your victims shows up to the fight armed.  Trayvon got his ticket punched because he chose the wrong man to beat.
 
2013-06-25 03:36:41 PM

nekom: gimmegimme:
The overall theme in these threads is the astounding lack of empathy some have for Martin and their inability to acknowledge--even if they think the shooting is 100% justified--how Zimmerman could have made bad choices that led to the death of a kid. (Or a "thug," depending on who you talk to.)

Of course he did!  Most people here are arguing points of law, statutes, etc.  Very few (though there are some) have a complete lack of empathy and hatred for the kid.  A 17 year old kid is dead who didn't deserve to die.  That's farked up and it sucks.  Zimmerman made poor decisions in following him for no reason, Martin probably made the poor decision of deciding to be tough, and decided to prove his point to the wrong person.  Did he deserve to die for it?  NO!  But it's a mistake in judgment for sure, just as Zimmerman made the mistake of getting involved with him in the first place.  Plenty of blame to go around, and there aren't any winners here, regardless of what happens at trial.  It's just a bad deal all around.




I will flat out say it. Martin deserved to die that night. He could have done countless things to stop the chain of events. He chose not and to further escalate them. Zimmerman is no saint but he didn't murder that boy.
 
2013-06-25 03:36:55 PM

nekom: Or a "thug," depending on who you talk to


Martin preferred to refer to himself as, "A gangsta"
 
2013-06-25 03:38:22 PM

frepnog: Trayvon notices that he has been seen, and tries to intimidate Zimmerman by acting tough and pretending to be armed.


0/10 oversold it right there. you were doing a pretty good job of playing the ignorant racist until you started to push the envelope. you had some good trolling before that, though, I must admit.
 
2013-06-25 03:38:52 PM

MFAWG: Zimmerman says he's pursuing


Following, to observe and report, for the police. "Pursuing" is prejudicial. Overruled.
 
2013-06-25 03:40:21 PM

Abuse Liability: nekom: gimmegimme:
The overall theme in these threads is the astounding lack of empathy some have for Martin and their inability to acknowledge--even if they think the shooting is 100% justified--how Zimmerman could have made bad choices that led to the death of a kid. (Or a "thug," depending on who you talk to.)

Of course he did!  Most people here are arguing points of law, statutes, etc.  Very few (though there are some) have a complete lack of empathy and hatred for the kid.  A 17 year old kid is dead who didn't deserve to die.  That's farked up and it sucks.  Zimmerman made poor decisions in following him for no reason, Martin probably made the poor decision of deciding to be tough, and decided to prove his point to the wrong person.  Did he deserve to die for it?  NO!  But it's a mistake in judgment for sure, just as Zimmerman made the mistake of getting involved with him in the first place.  Plenty of blame to go around, and there aren't any winners here, regardless of what happens at trial.  It's just a bad deal all around.

This is actually what most of us are saying.  We have empathy, but we believe that looking at the evidence, Zimmerman should be considered not guilty for second degree murder.  The kid shouldn't have died and the whole situation sucks.  That doesn't mean you get to be emotional and demand mob justice.


If that's what happened then Corey should be dealt with accordingly. In many states - it's a criminal offense. Anyone know the Florida particulars?

Without hearing the Prosecution's full case - I'd rather reserve my judgment.

But again - I'd find it incredibly unusual if the charges had no merit. Corey has an impressive reputation and is very ambitious. This would ruin a career with a nearly perfect closing rate.
 
2013-06-25 03:40:27 PM

Mid_mo_mad_man: Two16: Mid_mo_mad_man: IamAwake: kendelrio: IamAwake: He deserved to get a little beat up for that,

So women who wear short skirts, lots of makeup and are out of their homes after dark unaccompanied deserve rape? Nice bit of logic you have there.......

nice bit of cutting out text you have there...

If a person attacks someone, then chases them down and attacks them again, then at some point "most would think" that the person being attacked is justified in keeping the attacker from attacking a third time.  If you think that has absolutely any comparison to raping someone based on what they are wearing, you're a complete and total idiot.  That, and just because "most would think" something doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with it.

How is following someone attacking them? If your walking down the street I have every right to ask you what your doing. You can choose to answer me, tell me to piss off, keep walking or god forbid call 911 It does not give you the right to punch me. Martin wasn'y scared that night. The gf statements prove this. He was pissed that he was followed. He confronted Zimmerman and ended up the loser. Could have just kept walking and would be alive today.


Yeah, he's the total source of all his ills.  Yup...

[i39.tinypic.com image 850x251]

He chose to confront Zimmerman. Zimmerman had lost track of him according to the 911 recording. Martin to double back and attack Zimmerman. Idiot got shot and deserved it.


Assuming that all went down just in that fashion, your solution sounds reasonable, well thought out, and adult. In fact it might just be the last solution of its kind needed!After all; something needs to curtail the chronic "uppity" problem we seem to be having lately, what with people of all stripes and colors demanding their rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness and all that. You should start a newsletter for people to subscribe too, there's a precedent for that sort of thing, you know.
 
2013-06-25 03:41:40 PM

Mid_mo_mad_man: nekom: gimmegimme:
The overall theme in these threads is the astounding lack of empathy some have for Martin and their inability to acknowledge--even if they think the shooting is 100% justified--how Zimmerman could have made bad choices that led to the death of a kid. (Or a "thug," depending on who you talk to.)

Of course he did!  Most people here are arguing points of law, statutes, etc.  Very few (though there are some) have a complete lack of empathy and hatred for the kid.  A 17 year old kid is dead who didn't deserve to die.  That's farked up and it sucks.  Zimmerman made poor decisions in following him for no reason, Martin probably made the poor decision of deciding to be tough, and decided to prove his point to the wrong person.  Did he deserve to die for it?  NO!  But it's a mistake in judgment for sure, just as Zimmerman made the mistake of getting involved with him in the first place.  Plenty of blame to go around, and there aren't any winners here, regardless of what happens at trial.  It's just a bad deal all around.

I will flat out say it. Martin deserved to die that night. He could have done countless things to stop the chain of events. He chose not and to further escalate them. Zimmerman is no saint but he didn't murder that boy.


Did he manslaughter that boy?

s2s2s2: nekom: Or a "thug," depending on who you talk to

Martin preferred to refer to himself as, "A gangsta"


Do the Icy Hot Stuntaz deserve to die?

boingboing.net

Throwin' gang signs!
 
2013-06-25 03:42:22 PM

Ant: You mean the tough guy face that every teenage boy has to put on in order to secure his standing in teenage boy culture? Is that the face you mean? If so, I think every teenage boy looks like that at some point.


But not every teenage boy tries to beat someone to death and gets shot for it.  All we know about Trayvon indicates he was on a troubled path.  That is how a person ends up shot to death while out on a "skittles run" - by being the kind of person that will walk up and punch someone in the face, and you don't get to that point simply by trying to secure standing in teenage boy culture - you get that way by being a gang banger wanna be thug.
 
2013-06-25 03:42:34 PM
Also: make sure when you write your newsletter you throw in a lot of "... blacks in the USA..." yadda yadda yadda.  People love that about you.
 
2013-06-25 03:42:47 PM

CliChe Guevara: frepnog: Trayvon notices that he has been seen, and tries to intimidate Zimmerman by acting tough and pretending to be armed.

0/10 oversold it right there. you were doing a pretty good job of playing the ignorant racist until you started to push the envelope. you had some good trolling before that, though, I must admit.


Zimmerman:

Yeah, now he's coming toward me. He's got his hands in his waist band.

And he's a black male.[1:03]

....


Zimmerman:

Uh, huh.

Something's wrong with him. Yep, he's coming to check me out.

He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. [01:20]

You are a terrible judge.
 
2013-06-25 03:42:47 PM

Phinn: That's your imagination again.

I'm going to say something that may cause you to fly into a rage, but you still need to hear it -- Your imagination is not the same as reality.

Cogitate on that for a while. Let it sink in.


Just so you know, your levelheadedness and familiarity with the law has you highlighted as nice green for me.  You've done an excellent job keeping your cool despite the rest of us (myself included) dipping into the ol' emotional well.

/puts your penis back in your pants and zips ya up.
 
2013-06-25 03:43:44 PM

ChaosStar: "Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for.' They key thing here is Trayvon speaking first, starting the altercation that ended up with his death.


 I see. Was that not a reasonable question? Was it illegal?

 After your justifying the act of running down someone at night trying to evade you as 'legally observing' and going on and on about how Zimmerman violated no laws in his pursuit, I would like you guys to explain what laws 'asking the stranger chasing you down for no apparent reason what they are doing' violated.
 
2013-06-25 03:44:02 PM

ChaosStar: They key thing here is Trayvon speaking first, then Zimmerman replying. That is Martin starting the altercation that ended up with his death.


Asking why someone is stalking you, while carrying TWO flash lights, is starting a confrontation?
 
2013-06-25 03:44:13 PM

CliChe Guevara: frepnog: Trayvon notices that he has been seen, and tries to intimidate Zimmerman by acting tough and pretending to be armed.

0/10 oversold it right there. you were doing a pretty good job of playing the ignorant racist until you started to push the envelope. you had some good trolling before that, though, I must admit.


I said nothing ignorant or racist.  It is all in the 911 transcript.  Stop crying racism where none exists.  I did not troll.  I lined out the most likely sequence of events based on all evidence available.  There is pretty much no other conclusion to be made.
 
2013-06-25 03:44:57 PM
Two16

...something needs to curtail the chronic "uppity" problem we seem to be having lately, what with people of all stripes and colors demanding their rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness and all that.

So you're saying if a criminal that assaults you happens to be of African descent, defending yourself is racist because he's of African descent, and his assault is just his attempt at attaining equal rights.

Oh, you.
 
2013-06-25 03:44:59 PM

s2s2s2: CliChe Guevara: frepnog: Trayvon notices that he has been seen, and tries to intimidate Zimmerman by acting tough and pretending to be armed.

0/10 oversold it right there. you were doing a pretty good job of playing the ignorant racist until you started to push the envelope. you had some good trolling before that, though, I must admit.

Zimmerman:

Yeah, now he's coming toward me. He's got his hands in his waist band.

And he's a black male.[1:03]

....


Zimmerman:

Uh, huh.

Something's wrong with him. Yep, he's coming to check me out.

He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. [01:20]

You are a terrible judge.


You do realize that Zimmerman was, in fact "checking Martin out" and, unlike Martin, had a gun.

s2s2s2: MFAWG: Zimmerman says he's pursuing

Following, to observe and report, for the police. "Pursuing" is prejudicial. Overruled.


Good point.  Instead of "gunshot wound to the chest," they should say, "boo boo in the ouchie-wouchie place."
 
2013-06-25 03:45:12 PM

gimmegimme: Mid_mo_mad_man: nekom: gimmegimme:
The overall theme in these threads is the astounding lack of empathy some have for Martin and their inability to acknowledge--even if they think the shooting is 100% justified--how Zimmerman could have made bad choices that led to the death of a kid. (Or a "thug," depending on who you talk to.)

Of course he did!  Most people here are arguing points of law, statutes, etc.  Very few (though there are some) have a complete lack of empathy and hatred for the kid.  A 17 year old kid is dead who didn't deserve to die.  That's farked up and it sucks.  Zimmerman made poor decisions in following him for no reason, Martin probably made the poor decision of deciding to be tough, and decided to prove his point to the wrong person.  Did he deserve to die for it?  NO!  But it's a mistake in judgment for sure, just as Zimmerman made the mistake of getting involved with him in the first place.  Plenty of blame to go around, and there aren't any winners here, regardless of what happens at trial.  It's just a bad deal all around.

I will flat out say it. Martin deserved to die that night. He could have done countless things to stop the chain of events. He chose not and to further escalate them. Zimmerman is no saint but he didn't murder that boy.

Did he manslaughter that boy?

s2s2s2: nekom: Or a "thug," depending on who you talk to

Martin preferred to refer to himself as, "A gangsta"

Do the Icy Hot Stuntaz deserve to die?

[boingboing.net image 600x450]

Throwin' gang signs!


yes.
 
2013-06-25 03:45:27 PM

Satanic_Hamster: frepnog: ChaosStar: What can I say man? I like having phallic objects around. I know it's an issue and I probably need help but I just can't get over it!

Do you draw dicks and keep them in a lunchbox?

They won't even let him eat dick-shaped foods any more.  No carrots, no Pop-sicles, no hot-dogs.  You know how many farking foods are shaped like dick?


37?
 
2013-06-25 03:45:46 PM

Two16: Mid_mo_mad_man: Two16: Mid_mo_mad_man: IamAwake: kendelrio: IamAwake: He deserved to get a little beat up for that,

So women who wear short skirts, lots of makeup and are out of their homes after dark unaccompanied deserve rape? Nice bit of logic you have there.......

nice bit of cutting out text you have there...

If a person attacks someone, then chases them down and attacks them again, then at some point "most would think" that the person being attacked is justified in keeping the attacker from attacking a third time.  If you think that has absolutely any comparison to raping someone based on what they are wearing, you're a complete and total idiot.  That, and just because "most would think" something doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with it.

How is following someone attacking them? If your walking down the street I have every right to ask you what your doing. You can choose to answer me, tell me to piss off, keep walking or god forbid call 911 It does not give you the right to punch me. Martin wasn'y scared that night. The gf statements prove this. He was pissed that he was followed. He confronted Zimmerman and ended up the loser. Could have just kept walking and would be alive today.


Yeah, he's the total source of all his ills.  Yup...

[i39.tinypic.com image 850x251]

He chose to confront Zimmerman. Zimmerman had lost track of him according to the 911 recording. Martin to double back and attack Zimmerman. Idiot got shot and deserved it.

Assuming that all went down just in that fashion, your solution sounds reasonable, well thought out, and adult. In fact it might just be the last solution of its kind needed!After all; something needs to curtail the chronic "uppity" problem we seem to be having lately, what with people of all stripes and colors demanding their rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness and all that. You should start a newsletter for people to subscribe too, there's a precedent for that sort of thing, you know.




If all you can do is race bait leave. Uppity made it very easy to spot your game
 
2013-06-25 03:45:54 PM

ChaosStar: Bontesla:

From the girlfriend: "He said he lost the man. I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run."
"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for.' And the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

Trayvon himself backs up that Zimmerman lost him, Trayvon said he wasn't going to run, so he couldn't have been very scared like most people claim.
They key thing here is Trayvon speaking first, then Zimmerman replying. That is Martin starting the altercation that ended up with his death.


Actually, that's quite inconsistent with what you're saying. You claimed that Martin likely jumped Zimmerman and to support your argument you're referencing statements that seem to suggest Martin was briskly walking to get away.

I think it's entirely possible that Martin ducked into the shadows until he thought he lost Zimmerman. Then he informed the girl. She suggested he run now and he says he'll try walking away quickly.

Zimmerman reappears and the dialogue takes place.
 
2013-06-25 03:48:05 PM

Satanic_Hamster: ChaosStar: They key thing here is Trayvon speaking first, then Zimmerman replying. That is Martin starting the altercation that ended up with his death.

Asking why someone is stalking you, while carrying TWO flash lights, is starting a confrontation?


It has amused me that some Zim fans get all ITG: "If I see someone walking down my street, I ask them what the hell they're doing with a shotgun leaning on my shoulder."

While at the same time claiming that it's 100% Martin's fault if he asked Zimmerman why the guy was following him.
 
2013-06-25 03:48:09 PM

CliChe Guevara: ChaosStar: "Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for.' They key thing here is Trayvon speaking first, starting the altercation that ended up with his death.

 I see. Was that not a reasonable question? Was it illegal?

 After your justifying the act of running down someone at night trying to evade you as 'legally observing' and going on and on about how Zimmerman violated no laws in his pursuit, I would like you guys to explain what laws 'asking the stranger chasing you down for no apparent reason what they are doing' violated.


Did I say it was illegal or an unreasonable question?

Satanic_Hamster: ChaosStar: They key thing here is Trayvon speaking first, then Zimmerman replying. That is Martin starting the altercation that ended up with his death.

Asking why someone is stalking you, while carrying TWO flash lights, is starting a confrontation?


I said altercation.
This blows holes in both of you saying Martin didn't confront Zimmerman, Zimmerman hunted him down, etc.
Martin walked up to him and asked him a question, hell Zimmerman even said that in his statement:
"Zimmerman said that Martin asked, "You got a farking problem, homie?" Zimmerman replied no, and then Martin said that he did now, and punched him."

So, we now have possible evidence of how the fight actually started backed up by people on both sides of the case. How do you explain it away this time?
 
2013-06-25 03:48:26 PM
Bontesla

I think it's entirely possible that Martin ducked into the shadows until he thought he lost Zimmerman. Then he informed the girl. She suggested he run now and he says he'll try walking away quickly.

Entirely possible. Equally as possible as Martin assaulting Zimmerman instead of leaving. But since none of us know which way it went, and nothing we do will bring Martin back to tell us, better to err on the side of that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing, IMO.
 
2013-06-25 03:49:51 PM

gimmegimme: Do the Icy Hot Stuntaz deserve to die?

boingboing.net

Throwin' gang signs!


You're not really helping your case.   I think even a Quaker would shoot that guy, given a chance.
 
2013-06-25 03:51:56 PM

Satanic_Hamster: gimmegimme: Do the Icy Hot Stuntaz deserve to die?

boingboing.net

Throwin' gang signs!

You're not really helping your case.   I think even a Quaker would shoot that guy, given a chance.


img594.imageshack.us
/couldn't resist.  thread needs some levity anyway.
 
2013-06-25 03:52:31 PM

Satanic_Hamster: gimmegimme: Do the Icy Hot Stuntaz deserve to die?

boingboing.net

Throwin' gang signs!

You're not really helping your case.   I think even a Quaker would shoot that guy, given a chance.


Better?

farm3.staticflickr.com

a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com

///Darn it, they always get away...
 
2013-06-25 03:52:55 PM

gimmegimme: Satanic_Hamster: ChaosStar: They key thing here is Trayvon speaking first, then Zimmerman replying. That is Martin starting the altercation that ended up with his death.

Asking why someone is stalking you, while carrying TWO flash lights, is starting a confrontation?

It has amused me that some Zim fans get all ITG: "If I see someone walking down my street, I ask them what the hell they're doing with a shotgun leaning on my shoulder."

While at the same time claiming that it's 100% Martin's fault if he asked Zimmerman why the guy was following him.


and so you're saying zimmerman started the confrontation with his response that was "what are you doing here?"  Neither person sounded that impolite to me.  At best none of us can say who initiated the confrontation.  Now some of us believe that because Zimm's nose was broken and he ended up on his back, that it may be likely that he was physically assaulted first by Martin (and I think a case could be made for that), but that can't be confirmed or denied.  He could have pushed the kid first.  But what evidence is there that Zim started the altercation?  There has to be some or zimmerman will walk because all the evidence point to self-defense
 
2013-06-25 03:52:56 PM

s2s2s2: CliChe Guevara: frepnog: Trayvon notices that he has been seen, and tries to intimidate Zimmerman by acting tough and pretending to be armed.

0/10 oversold it right there. you were doing a pretty good job of playing the ignorant racist until you started to push the envelope. you had some good trolling before that, though, I must admit.

Zimmerman:

Yeah, now he's coming toward me. He's got his hands in his waist band.

And he's a black male.[1:03]

....


Zimmerman:

Uh, huh.

Something's wrong with him. Yep, he's coming to check me out.

He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. [01:20]

You are a terrible judge.


Yeah, a guy who assumed a young black man walking in the rain was "on drugs or something" and "up to no good" is almost assuredly a fantastic judge of facts.

"He has something in his hands." Yeah, a farking bag of Skittles. I know I feel safer having a guy like that patrolling neighborhoods.

Zimmerman is likely going to avoid conviction simply for lack of evidence, not because he actually is innocent; there's a difference.
 
2013-06-25 03:53:22 PM

gimmegimme: ou do realize that Zimmerman was, in fact "checking Martin out" and, unlike Martin, had a gun.


Yup.

gimmegimme: Instead of "gunshot wound to the chest," they should say, "boo boo in the ouchie-wouchie place."


No that would be as inaccurate as referring to following as "pursuing, hunting, chasing, stalking..."

gimmegimme: Do the Icy Hot Stuntaz deserve to die?


Trayvon didn't either. GZ can be justified, under the law, for shooting him dead, and that doesn't mean Trayvon deserved it.
 
2013-06-25 03:54:15 PM
Bontesla:
Actually, that's quite inconsistent with what you're saying. You claimed that Martin likely jumped Zimmerman and to support your argument you're referencing statements that seem to suggest Martin was briskly walking to get away.

I think it's entirely possible that Martin ducked into the shadows until he thought he lost Zimmerman. Then he informed the girl. She suggested he run now and he says he'll try walking away quickly.

Zimmerman reappears and the dialogue takes place.


This is the actual dialog between her and the prosecutor. Take from it what you will, but remember she has been caught lying already to the authorities over this so there's no telling how accurate this is.
PROSECUTOR: He, Trayvon, put his hoodie on?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah, 'cause, he said, it was still a little bit dripping water so he put his hoodie on. So I said, 'What's going on?' He said, this man is still watching from a car. So he about to run from the back. I told him, go to his dad's house. Run to his dad's house.
PROSECUTOR: Go to what?
GIRLFRIEND: Run to his dad's house.
PROSECUTOR: To his dad's house?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah. So he said he was about to run from the back, so the next that I hear, he just run. I can hear that the wind blowing.
PROSECUTOR: So you could tell he was running at that time? OK. And then what happened?
GIRLFRIEND: Then he said, he lost him.
PROSECUTOR: He lost what, the man?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: So was Trayvon, at that time, you could tell he was, like, out of breath, like excited?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: OK. Take your time, I know this is difficult for you.
GIRLFRIEND: So he lost him. He was breathing hard. And by the sound of his voice, his voice kind of changed.
PROSECUTOR: Who, Trayvon's?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: OK. What do you mean by that? His voice changed?
GIRLFRIEND: [inaudible]
PROSECUTOR: I'm sorry?
GIRLFRIEND: I know he was scared.
PROSECUTOR: I know what you are trying to tell me but if you could describe to me how you could tell he was scared.
GIRLFRIEND: His voice was getting kind of low.
PROSECUTOR: So you could tell he was emotional, like somebody who was in fear?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: He was breathing hard?
GIRLFRIEND: He said he had lost him and he was breathing hard and I told him 'Keep running.'
PROSECUTOR: So Trayvon said he started walking because he thought he had lost the guy?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: OK.
GIRLFRIEND: I said, 'Keep running.' He said he ain't gonna run. 'Cause he said he is right by his father's house. And then in a couple minutes he said the man is following him again. He's behind him. I said, 'Run!' He said he was not going to run. I knew he was not going to run because he was out of breath. And then he was getting excited, the guy's getting close to him. I told him, 'Run!' And I told him, 'Keep running!' He not going to run. I tell him, 'Why are you not running?' He said 'I'm not gonna.' He was tired. I know he was tired.
PROSECUTOR: I am sorry, Trayvon said he was not running because--he's not going to run he said because you could tell he was tired? How could you tell he was tired?
GIRLFRIEND: He was breathing hard.
PROSECUTOR: Real hard?
GIRLFRIEND: Real hard. And then he told me this guy was getting close! He told me the guy was getting real close to him. And the next I hear is, 'Why are you following me for?'
PROSECUTOR: OK. Let me make sure I understand this so, Trayvon tells you the guy is getting closer to him and then you hear Trayvon saying something.
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: And what do you hear Trayvon saying?
GIRLFRIEND: 'Why are you following me for?'
PROSECUTOR: 'Why are you following me for?'
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: And then what happened?
GIRLFRIEND: I heard this man, like an old man say, 'What are you doing around here?'
PROSECUTOR: OK, so you definitely could tell another voice that was not Trayvon and you heard this other voice say what?
GIRLFRIEND: 'What are you doing around here?'
PROSECUTOR: 'What are you doing around here?' OK.
GIRLFRIEND: And I call Trayvon, 'Trayon, what's going on? What's going on?'
PROSECUTOR: This is you saying that?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah. Then, I am calling him and he didn't answer.
PROSECUTOR: No answer from Trayvon?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah. I hear some like 'bump.' You could hear someone had bumped Trayvon. I could hear the grass.
PROSECUTOR: OK. So you could hear there was something going on, like something hitting something?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah. I could hear the grass thing.
PROSECUTOR: Out of the...?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: OK, and then what happened?
GIRLFRIEND: And then, I was still screaming, I was saying, 'Trayvon! Trayvon!'
PROSECUTOR: And there was no response?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah and then the next thing the phone just shut off.
PROSECUTOR: The phone shut off?
GIRLFRIEND: It just shut off.
 
2013-06-25 03:55:07 PM

ChaosStar: I said altercation.
This blows holes in both of you saying Martin didn't confront Zimmerman, Zimmerman hunted him down, etc.
Martin walked up to him and asked him a question, hell Zimmerman even said that in his statement:
"Zimmerman said that Martin asked, "You got a farking problem, homie?" Zimmerman replied no, and then Martin said that he did now, and punched him."

So, we now have possible evidence of how the fight actually started backed up by people on both sides of the case. How do you explain it away this time?


A man with a gun and two flashlights is stalking you.  You're not allowed to ask him why?  To stand your ground when he attacks you?
 
2013-06-25 03:55:32 PM

Facetious_Speciest: Bontesla

I think it's entirely possible that Martin ducked into the shadows until he thought he lost Zimmerman. Then he informed the girl. She suggested he run now and he says he'll try walking away quickly.

Entirely possible. Equally as possible as Martin assaulting Zimmerman instead of leaving. But since none of us know which way it went, and nothing we do will bring Martin back to tell us, better to err on the side of that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing, IMO.


I agree that both stories are certainly plausible and unfortunately there isn't sufficient evidence (of which I'm aware) that conclusively prove one version of events over the other.

I'll wait to reserve my judgment until both sides rest.
 
2013-06-25 03:58:01 PM

ChaosStar: Bontesla:
Actually, that's quite inconsistent with what you're saying. You claimed that Martin likely jumped Zimmerman and to support your argument you're referencing statements that seem to suggest Martin was briskly walking to get away.

I think it's entirely possible that Martin ducked into the shadows until he thought he lost Zimmerman. Then he informed the girl. She suggested he run now and he says he'll try walking away quickly.

Zimmerman reappears and the dialogue takes place.

This is the actual dialog between her and the prosecutor. Take from it what you will, but remember she has been caught lying already to the authorities over this so there's no telling how accurate this is.
PROSECUTOR: He, Trayvon, put his hoodie on?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah, 'cause, he said, it was still a little bit dripping water so he put his hoodie on. So I said, 'What's going on?' He said, this man is still watching from a car. So he about to run from the back. I told him, go to his dad's house. Run to his dad's house.
PROSECUTOR: Go to what?
GIRLFRIEND: Run to his dad's house.
PROSECUTOR: To his dad's house?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah. So he said he was about to run from the back, so the next that I hear, he just run. I can hear that the wind blowing.
PROSECUTOR: So you could tell he was running at that time? OK. And then what happened?
GIRLFRIEND: Then he said, he lost him.
PROSECUTOR: He lost what, the man?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: So was Trayvon, at that time, you could tell he was, like, out of breath, like excited?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: OK. Take your time, I know this is difficult for you.
GIRLFRIEND: So he lost him. He was breathing hard. And by the sound of his voice, his voice kind of changed.
PROSECUTOR: Who, Trayvon's?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: OK. What do you mean by that? His voice changed?
GIRLFRIEND: [inaudible]
PROSECUTOR: I'm sorry?
GIRLFRIEND: I know he was scared.
PROSECUTOR: I know what you are trying to tell me but if you could describe to me how you could tell he was scared.
GIRLFRIEND: His voice was getting kind of low.
PROSECUTOR: So you could tell he was emotional, like somebody who was in fear?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: He was breathing hard?
GIRLFRIEND: He said he had lost him and he was breathing hard and I told him 'Keep running.'
PROSECUTOR: So Trayvon said he started walking because he thought he had lost the guy?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: OK.
GIRLFRIEND: I said, 'Keep running.' He said he ain't gonna run. 'Cause he said he is right by his father's house. And then in a couple minutes he said the man is following him again. He's behind him. I said, 'Run!' He said he was not going to run. I knew he was not going to run because he was out of breath. And then he was getting excited, the guy's getting close to him. I told him, 'Run!' And I told him, 'Keep running!' He not going to run. I tell him, 'Why are you not running?' He said 'I'm not gonna.' He was tired. I know he was tired.
PROSECUTOR: I am sorry, Trayvon said he was not running because--he's not going to run he said because you could tell he was tired? How could you tell he was tired?
GIRLFRIEND: He was breathing hard.
PROSECUTOR: Real hard?
GIRLFRIEND: Real hard. And then he told me this guy was getting close! He told me the guy was getting real close to him. And the next I hear is, 'Why are you following me for?'
PROSECUTOR: OK. Let me make sure I understand this so, Trayvon tells you the guy is getting closer to him and then you hear Trayvon saying something.
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: And what do you hear Trayvon saying?
GIRLFRIEND: 'Why are you following me for?'
PROSECUTOR: 'Why are you following me for?'
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: And then what happened?
GIRLFRIEND: I heard this man, like an old man say, 'What are you doing around here?'
PROSECUTOR: OK, so you definitely could tell another voice that was not Trayvon and you heard this other voice say what?
GIRLFRIEND: 'What are you doing around here?'
PROSECUTOR: 'What are you doing around here?' OK.
GIRLFRIEND: And I call Trayvon, 'Trayon, what's going on? What's going on?'
PROSECUTOR: This is you saying that?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah. Then, I am calling him and he didn't answer.
PROSECUTOR: No answer from Trayvon?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah. I hear some like 'bump.' You could hear someone had bumped Trayvon. I could hear the grass.
PROSECUTOR: OK. So you could hear there was something going on, like something hitting something?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah. I could hear the grass thing.
PROSECUTOR: Out of the...?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.
PROSECUTOR: OK, and then what happened?
GIRLFRIEND: And then, I was still screaming, I was saying, 'Trayvon! Trayvon!'
PROSECUTOR: And there was no response?
GIRLFRIEND: Yeah and then the next thing the phone just shut off.
PROSECUTOR: The phone shut off?
GIRLFRIEND: It just shut off.


Thank you for posting that. I'm on my phone and at work. Multitasking is a bit tricky.
 
2013-06-25 03:58:06 PM

Perpetuous Procrastination: Zimmerman is likely going to avoid conviction simply for lack of evidence, not because he actually is innocent; there's a difference.


Damn straight. This is all I've been saying. Hell. Maybe the reason Trayvon isn't alive today, is that no one caught him breaking into houses. We don't know that he wasn't casing houses. Alone in the rain, with nearly no one around is a good way to do it. If only Zimmerman's woman would have done the shopping like a good woman, George never would have crossed paths with Martin.

Speculation is easy, and often misleading.
 
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