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(CNN)   Zimmerman defense lawyer apologizes to jury for telling knock-knock joke about them in his opening statement, asks them if they've heard the one about Trayvon Martin's favorite flavor of Skittles   (cnn.com) divider line 933
    More: Dumbass, George Zimmerman, Skittles, opening statement, Mark O'Mara, Angela Corey, next of kin, Benjamin Crump, Dean Martin  
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6575 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Jun 2013 at 8:15 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-25 01:22:21 PM

manimal2878: Phinn:

I draw your attention to F.S. s. 776.012 and s. 776.041.

I patiently await your retraction and apology for misleading people about the provisions of Florida law.


776.041Use of force by aggressor.-The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who...: 2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself .

Looks like Zimmerman is farked.

Wait is there hope?

unless:
(a)Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;

There is hope, but it will depend on whether a jury believes that Z. had a reosanably fear he was about to be beaten to death or given a crippling beating, and if they think he tried everything he could before pulling his gun.


Following someone does not qualify as provocation.
 
2013-06-25 01:22:21 PM

CliChe Guevara: BraveNewCheneyWorld: He's a neighborhood watch volunteer.

Um, you would think after a year of this you might get at least one tiny fragment of reality through your head;

NO. He wasn't.

NSA Executive Director Aaron D. Kennard, Sheriff (ret.); "The alleged action of a 'self-appointed neighborhood watchman' last month in Sanford, FL significantly contradicts the principles of the Neighborhood Watch Program", "NSA has no information indicating the community where the incident occurred has ever even registered with the NSA Neighborhood Watch program."


Director of Neighborhood Watch for the National Sheriffs' Association, Chris Tutko; "If Zimmerman had tried to join or start a registered group, he would have been stopped. The fact that Zimmerman was known to have made over 40 calls to police to report suspicious activities in recent months would have raised suspicions ofhim. If the police were called that many times, you look at what the end game was," he said. "Was there anything found? If nothing was found, that person needs to be counseled, or reeducated, or otherwise told you are not going to be allowed on the Neighborhood Watch."


Do yourself a favor and google "George Zimmerman Wendy Dorival"

It should be enlightening.
 
2013-06-25 01:23:09 PM
manimal2878

There is hope, but it will depend on whether a jury believes that Z. had a reosanably fear he was about to be beaten to death or given a crippling beating, and if they think he tried everything he could before pulling his gun.

Considering that witnesses place Martin on top of Zimmerman, beating him, it's hardly unlikely that at least one person in the jury could come to such a conclusion.
 
2013-06-25 01:23:29 PM

parasol: ChaosStar:
Lets look at it like this:
You're going from point A to point B
You notice someone behind you, you think they are following you and you don't want to lead them to point B.
You turn and are now heading to point C
The person you think is following you also turns to head to point C
You turn again and are now heading to point D
The person you think is following you also turns to head to point D

You freak out because now you're sure they're following you
You pepper spray the person you thought was following you
You turn and demand to know why they are following you

Turns out the person you thought was following you was going point D the entire time and just
Really IS following you

They already have called the police, you're arrested for battery and now have a police record.
but shoot you and now you are dead
Your attacker had have nothing to base their fear on but assumptions and self defense laws don't work like that except maybe in Florida


Oh! I see what you did there!
Not correctly, in any relevant way, or even with any appreciable wit
/but I see it
 
2013-06-25 01:23:45 PM

manimal2878: Phinn:

I draw your attention to F.S. s. 776.012 and s. 776.041.

I patiently await your retraction and apology for misleading people about the provisions of Florida law.


776.041Use of force by aggressor.-The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who...: 2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself .

Looks like Zimmerman is farked.

Wait is there hope?

unless:
(a)Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;

There is hope, but it will depend on whether a jury believes that Z. had a reosanably fear he was about to be beaten to death or given a crippling beating, and if they think he tried everything he could before pulling his gun.


There are eyewitnesses who put Martin on top of Zimmerman right before the shot was fired, so the ability to flee at least should not be in question.
 
2013-06-25 01:25:59 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: QueenMamaBee: If they're not following me when I duck away, then end of problem. They're not there anymore. However, if I'm minding my own business and some fool starts tailing me, then more than likely their motives aren't pure. I wouldn't at all mind explaining my reasoning to the police while they're washing the pepper spray from the dude's eyes. If I'm walking from the store to my house, and I feel like the person is following me, then I'd rather not lead creepy guy to my front door. So I change direction... if he's not really chasing me, then he's not going to change direction when I do, and no problem. If he is chasing me, then I don't have much to lose by spraying him in the face, am i?

If they haven't done anything to you, you're losing 3 years of your life in prison.  Please show us in the law where you are justified in using force to prevent someone from walking in the same place you're walking.


3 years in prison for first time assault in a city where I know every single member of the police force? Not quite. I've been stalked. It's not fun. There's a HUGE difference in walking the same direction where someone else happens to be walking and actively hunting them down. You don't purposefully follow someone through several direction changes just for the heck of it. You have a motive and that motive isn't nice.
 
2013-06-25 01:26:59 PM

ChaosStar: Zimmerman didn't know the flashlight didn't work until he was out of the truck, you can hear him smacking it in the audio. Was presented to the jury yesterday by the defense with no objection from the prosecution. Move on friend.


Smacking it?  More like assaulting it.  He's clearly prone to violence, apparently even against inanimate objects.
 
2013-06-25 01:27:52 PM

Yes please: ChaosStar: Zimmerman didn't know the flashlight didn't work until he was out of the truck, you can hear him smacking it in the audio. Was presented to the jury yesterday by the defense with no objection from the prosecution. Move on friend.

Smacking it?  More like assaulting it.  He's clearly prone to violence, apparently even against inanimate objects.


Why, you're right!
This is clear evidence that should be brought to the prosecution!
 
2013-06-25 01:28:16 PM
The really interesting thing about these threads is that some people think deadly force is inappropriate even as someone sits on top of you punching your face into concrete, but if someone dares to walk the same path as you, there should be hell to pay.
 
2013-06-25 01:29:35 PM

youncasqua: I can't help but notice how Zimmerman's people keep resorting to ad hominem personal attacks, while the Martin people are mostly making good arguments. That makes me think Zimmerman's defense is pretty weak. I don't know much about this case, but reading this thread, it doesn't look good for Zimmerman.


actually, if you pay attention and read, people that go with what is actual evidence and reality tend to "side" with Zimmerman.  People that want this to be "a poor innocent black chile was murdered" are the ones that are really weak - because all of their arguments are fictional.  Facts are this - Zimmerman killed Trayvon in self-defense and the prosecution has no evidence to the contrary.  Zimmerman will walk because the law, the evidence, the witnesses and the facts are ALL on his side.  Period.
 
2013-06-25 01:30:15 PM

nekom: It also isn't evidence of a crime. It's not against the law to follow somebody, or even to confront them verbally in a non-threatening way. It's not against the law to carry a properly licensed concealed firearm while doing so. If you're trying to convince me that Zimmerman is an overzealous, confrontational, wanna-be cop, don't bother, I already firmly believe that. However, that isn't a crime.


You're right that chasing someone by itself isn't evidence of a crime. But we're not divorcing this from context. I'm not anyway. In conjunction with the other evidence of Zimmerman's attitude and course of conduct, his willingness to confront is probative to the crime.

Zimmerman is an overzealous, confrontational, wanna-be cop, don't bother, I already firmly believe that.

This is overzealous, confrontational, wanna-be-cop's story has evolved depending on the audience. He had a fight with someone he believed for no good reason was a criminal, who was minding his own business out to buy some snacks, wasn't committing any crimes or in possession of any contraband, and who had no credible motive whatsoever to start a fight...
 and you think there's a reasonable doubt who started it?


You don't need videotaped evidence to prove a crime. You have to make inferences informed by a heavy dose of common sense. Every killer is gonna kick up some dust to obfuscate the truth. That dust may give doubt. But that doesn't make that doubt reasonable.
 
2013-06-25 01:30:30 PM

QueenMamaBee: BraveNewCheneyWorld: QueenMamaBee: If they're not following me when I duck away, then end of problem. They're not there anymore. However, if I'm minding my own business and some fool starts tailing me, then more than likely their motives aren't pure. I wouldn't at all mind explaining my reasoning to the police while they're washing the pepper spray from the dude's eyes. If I'm walking from the store to my house, and I feel like the person is following me, then I'd rather not lead creepy guy to my front door. So I change direction... if he's not really chasing me, then he's not going to change direction when I do, and no problem. If he is chasing me, then I don't have much to lose by spraying him in the face, am i?

If they haven't done anything to you, you're losing 3 years of your life in prison.  Please show us in the law where you are justified in using force to prevent someone from walking in the same place you're walking.

3 years in prison for first time assault in a city where I know every single member of the police force? Not quite. I've been stalked. It's not fun. There's a HUGE difference in walking the same direction where someone else happens to be walking and actively hunting them down. You don't purposefully follow someone through several direction changes just for the heck of it. You have a motive and that motive isn't nice.


So you're saying you will be given special treatment by the police force?
There's a HUGE difference between following someone and stalking them too.
Motive may not be nice, but it's not grounds for you to attack them.
 
2013-06-25 01:30:37 PM
The prosecuting attorney sounds a lot like Kevin Costner.
 
2013-06-25 01:31:09 PM

QueenMamaBee: BraveNewCheneyWorld: QueenMamaBee: If they're not following me when I duck away, then end of problem. They're not there anymore. However, if I'm minding my own business and some fool starts tailing me, then more than likely their motives aren't pure. I wouldn't at all mind explaining my reasoning to the police while they're washing the pepper spray from the dude's eyes. If I'm walking from the store to my house, and I feel like the person is following me, then I'd rather not lead creepy guy to my front door. So I change direction... if he's not really chasing me, then he's not going to change direction when I do, and no problem. If he is chasing me, then I don't have much to lose by spraying him in the face, am i?

If they haven't done anything to you, you're losing 3 years of your life in prison.  Please show us in the law where you are justified in using force to prevent someone from walking in the same place you're walking.

3 years in prison for first time assault in a city where I know every single member of the police force? Not quite. I've been stalked. It's not fun. There's a HUGE difference in walking the same direction where someone else happens to be walking and actively hunting them down. You don't purposefully follow someone through several direction changes just for the heck of it. You have a motive and that motive isn't nice.


So your justification for using force on someone who may just be coincidentally walking in the same direction is that you have enough connections in law enforcement such that you're able to act irresponsibly without consequence?  You sound like an asshole.
 
2013-06-25 01:32:04 PM

redmid17: CliChe Guevara: BraveNewCheneyWorld: He's a neighborhood watch volunteer.

Um, you would think after a year of this you might get at least one tiny fragment of reality through your head;

NO. He wasn't.

NSA Executive Director Aaron D. Kennard, Sheriff (ret.); "The alleged action of a 'self-appointed neighborhood watchman' last month in Sanford, FL significantly contradicts the principles of the Neighborhood Watch Program", "NSA has no information indicating the community where the incident occurred has ever even registered with the NSA Neighborhood Watch program."


Director of Neighborhood Watch for the National Sheriffs' Association, Chris Tutko; "If Zimmerman had tried to join or start a registered group, he would have been stopped. The fact that Zimmerman was known to have made over 40 calls to police to report suspicious activities in recent months would have raised suspicions ofhim. If the police were called that many times, you look at what the end game was," he said. "Was there anything found? If nothing was found, that person needs to be counseled, or reeducated, or otherwise told you are not going to be allowed on the Neighborhood Watch."

Do yourself a favor and google "George Zimmerman Wendy Dorival"

It should be enlightening.


Is that the lady that showed up to try to train an official group but it never went any further?
The one who invited Zimmerman to join but he declined?
Possibly because she is also the one the told him "Neighborhood Watch is NOT the vigilante police"?

Not sure what your point is, other than I did learn he was even offered a position and declined.
That itself infers something right there, actually, and it isn't good.
 
2013-06-25 01:32:38 PM

youncasqua: I can't help but notice how Zimmerman's people keep resorting to ad hominem personal attacks, while the Martin people are mostly making good arguments. That makes me think Zimmerman's defense is pretty weak. I don't know much about this case, but reading this thread, it doesn't look good for Zimmerman.




What thread are you reading? Since day one Zimmerman defenders have making logic based arguments. Martin defenders counter with that's racist.
 
2013-06-25 01:32:59 PM

youncasqua: I can't help but notice how Zimmerman's people keep resorting to ad hominem personal attacks, while the Martin people are mostly making good arguments. That makes me think Zimmerman's defense is pretty weak. I don't know much about this case, but reading this thread, it doesn't look good for Zimmerman.



You must be new.

Rational discussion of the evidence and the law ended several Zimmerman threads ago.
 
2013-06-25 01:33:43 PM
IS ANYONE ELSE WATCHING THIS TRIAL?? DID YOU SEE THE PICTURES SHOWING WHERE MARTIN'S BODY WAS? LOOK HOW farkING FAR THEY WERE OFF OF THE STREET!!
 
2013-06-25 01:33:48 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: The really interesting thing about these threads is that some people think deadly force is inappropriate even as someone sits on top of you punching your face into concrete, but if someone dares to walk the same path as you, there should be hell to pay.


I think there should be a way to stop the assault and/or prevent an assault. Was there a way to stop TM from assaulting GZ short of shooting him? Yes. Would I kill someone for following me? No, but if their intentions don't seem good, I'm going to stop him. I'd try my absolute best to remove myself from the situation first, but if it comes down to it and I feel threatened, I'm at least just going to show my pepper spray if not use it. That's not lethal force and I don't think GZ should have gone that far either.
 
2013-06-25 01:35:10 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: IS ANYONE ELSE WATCHING THIS TRIAL?? DID YOU SEE THE PICTURES SHOWING WHERE MARTIN'S BODY WAS? LOOK HOW farkING FAR THEY WERE OFF OF THE STREET!!


and that has what to do with anything exactly?
 
2013-06-25 01:35:58 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: The really interesting thing about these threads is that some people think deadly force is inappropriate even as someone sits on top of you punching your face into concrete, but if someone dares to walk the same path as you, there should be hell to pay.


No, you see.  If you follow somebody they automatically get to beat you up to the extent they chose, and you have to take it.  It's okay.  They promise they'll stop before you are seriously injured.
 
2013-06-25 01:36:30 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: QueenMamaBee: BraveNewCheneyWorld: QueenMamaBee: If they're not following me when I duck away, then end of problem. They're not there anymore. However, if I'm minding my own business and some fool starts tailing me, then more than likely their motives aren't pure. I wouldn't at all mind explaining my reasoning to the police while they're washing the pepper spray from the dude's eyes. If I'm walking from the store to my house, and I feel like the person is following me, then I'd rather not lead creepy guy to my front door. So I change direction... if he's not really chasing me, then he's not going to change direction when I do, and no problem. If he is chasing me, then I don't have much to lose by spraying him in the face, am i?

If they haven't done anything to you, you're losing 3 years of your life in prison.  Please show us in the law where you are justified in using force to prevent someone from walking in the same place you're walking.

3 years in prison for first time assault in a city where I know every single member of the police force? Not quite. I've been stalked. It's not fun. There's a HUGE difference in walking the same direction where someone else happens to be walking and actively hunting them down. You don't purposefully follow someone through several direction changes just for the heck of it. You have a motive and that motive isn't nice.

So your justification for using force on someone who may just be coincidentally walking in the same direction is that you have enough connections in law enforcement such that you're able to act irresponsibly without consequence?  You sound like an asshole.


No, as I've said many many times, I would try to remove myself from the situation first. If the person's still tracking me down, then yes I will react. Someone doesn't just "happen" to be walking one direction with me, then totally change directions when I do, then totally change directions again. That's not a coincidence, that's a planned act.

And no, I wouldn't get special treatment from the police officers, however, they know I'm not going to act without good reason.
 
2013-06-25 01:36:37 PM
QueenMamaBee

Was there a way to stop TM from assaulting GZ short of shooting him? Yes.

Once a man has you on the ground and is beating you about the head, how would you stop his assault? Zimmerman didn't have pepper spray. He wasn't an athlete. He was, by all accounts, getting his ass handed to him. What would you have done to stop it?
 
2013-06-25 01:36:57 PM

Facetious_Speciest: bugontherug

George Zimmerman molested the innocent child Trayvon Martin.

You still don't know this. You've simply decided it must be so and insisted upon it. None of us know who started the altercation.


No. Zimmerman's own story depends on the proposition that he annoyed or disturbed Trayvon, thus giving Trayvon a motive to viciously attack him. It is conclusively proved that Zimmerman molested the child Travyon Martin. It is an objective fact of reality that George Zimmerman is a child molester.

I don't know about you, but I just don't see how anyone could ever find a child molester's killing of his victim justified, no matter how savagely he was beaten. I guess I just think differently than you is all.

= P
 
2013-06-25 01:37:25 PM

ChaosStar: DROxINxTHExWIND: IS ANYONE ELSE WATCHING THIS TRIAL?? DID YOU SEE THE PICTURES SHOWING WHERE MARTIN'S BODY WAS? LOOK HOW farkING FAR THEY WERE OFF OF THE STREET!!

and that has what to do with anything exactly?


Sidewalks tend not to be extremely far off of a street.
 
2013-06-25 01:37:40 PM
bugontherug:
You don't need videotaped evidence to prove a crime. You have to make inferences informed by a heavy dose of common sense. Every killer is gonna kick up some dust to obfuscate the truth. That dust may give doubt. But that doesn't make that doubt reasonable.

You don't think that it's reasonable that MAYBE Martin actually attacked him?  I think that's probably the case, however given the hard evidence we have, it's CERTAINLY reasonable that Martin was the one who initiated the scuffle.

Reasonable doubt = not guilty.  All those inferences and such will come in very handy at the civil trial, though, which he will have a fair chance of losing.
 
2013-06-25 01:38:42 PM
Chaos Star

"not correctly"? I'm sorry, I was unaware there is a correct way to endlessly speculate about a topic on
FARK - nor was I aware you are the designated judge.

I defer to your greater skills - both at non-relevant hypothetical situations AND how best to pose them here
 
2013-06-25 01:38:57 PM

QueenMamaBee: BraveNewCheneyWorld: The really interesting thing about these threads is that some people think deadly force is inappropriate even as someone sits on top of you punching your face into concrete, but if someone dares to walk the same path as you, there should be hell to pay.

I think there should be a way to stop the assault and/or prevent an assault. Was there a way to stop TM from assaulting GZ short of shooting him? Yes.


With the information that GZ had at that time, tell us what that was.  Remember, GZ had every legal right to be in his own neighborhood, the phone call he had with dispatch indicated that he would cease chasing TM, and TM's girlfriend indicated that TM was angry at GZ.
 
2013-06-25 01:40:57 PM

IamAwake: Aigoo: hit harder than Martin or Zimmerman.

They're on a spongy platform that bounces around, throwing each other against foam-covered ropes.  They are calloused, and know how to take punches.  It's also a farking show - "it's real to me" doesn't make it real.

In the real world, if someone is slamming someone else's bald head against the ground, there will be blood.  Lots of it. Scalps bruise and bleed, especially when coming in rapid and forceful contact with the ground.

I actually think it's a good thing you've never seen a real fight - don't take that as an insult in any way.  But real fights - especially ones where a head is supposedly being bashed against something hard - rapidly involve lots of blood.


Actually, you would be incorrect. I have. And I have seen several real fights where bouncing someone's head off the pavement did not result in copious amounts of blood and several where bouncing their head off the pavement did result in copious amounts of blood. You see, the fact that a scalp impacted pavement does not necessarily mean there will be massive bleeding--there are other factors involved, and since I was not present at the altercation between Martin and Zimmerman, I really couldn't say what exactly took place. I can say that not all head injuries are open--I don't have the statistics in front of me, but if memory serves, the vast majority are closed. I can also say that in the real world, it's not as easy to cut someone's head open as TV would have us think it is--even by smashing it on a hard surface. I've seen folks with their heads smacked deliberately into pavement a few times with injuries very similar to Zimmerman's, and I've seen folks with their heads smacked deliberately into the pavement a few times who've bled like someone tried to decapitate them and had really bad aim. I've also seen folks who've had their head smacked into pavement who barely got a bump on the noggin.

I actually think it's a good thing that you've never been anywhere near a MASH unit, trauma center, or otherwise involved in picking up the pieces--and no, that's not snark or insult. I've always found it morbidly fascinating that 5 people can be in the same or very similar situation and have different physical reactions and injuries. For instance, the night of my car accident that gave me my spine and brain injuries, there were three accidents with identical circumstances in that state. One victim was internally decapitated and died instantly. Another victim was paralyzed from the neck down. I am able to walk--though I endured over a year of physical therapy in order to be able to do so. All three wrecks were identical; three different outcomes. Most likely, if you find three randomly selected 200lb men who have have their heads smashed into a curb, you will find three different sets of injuries--similar, but not identical.

The videos posted, by the way, were in direct response to the question posed regarding the issue of how someone smaller and lighter could pose a credible threat to the life and safety of someone larger and heavier who had been trained in the martial arts. As an off-topic aside, PRIDE didn't become the joke that is UFC until 2007, when Zuffa purchased it. From 1997 until its purchase in 2007, PRIDE operated under different, less restrictive rules which allowed things such as kicking and kneeing the heads of downed opponents and stomping the head of a downed opponent. Dana White turned it into the bad joke it is today.
 
2013-06-25 01:41:40 PM
bugontherug

No.

Yes, actually.

Zimmerman's own story depends on the proposition that he annoyed or disturbed Trayvon, thus giving Trayvon a motive to viciously attack him.

You don't believe Zimmeman, so this is irrelevant to the issue of you making things up.

It is conclusively proved that Zimmerman molested the child Travyon Martin. It is an objective fact of reality that George Zimmerman is a child molester.

Because you like to portray reporting someone to the police as "child molestation." If you have children, you yourself are a child molester, by your definition..."annoying a child."

I guess I just think differently than you is all.

I think that's obvious. I tend not to lie.
 
2013-06-25 01:41:42 PM

Facetious_Speciest: QueenMamaBee

Was there a way to stop TM from assaulting GZ short of shooting him? Yes.

Once a man has you on the ground and is beating you about the head, how would you stop his assault? Zimmerman didn't have pepper spray. He wasn't an athlete. He was, by all accounts, getting his ass handed to him. What would you have done to stop it?


First thing taught in all self-defense classes....aim for the eyes or the groin.
 
2013-06-25 01:41:49 PM
bugontherug: inferences  inferences  inferences  inferences   inferences  inferences  inferences  inferences  inferences   inferences  inferences  inferences  inferences  inferences   inferences  inferences  inferences  inferences  inferences   inferences  inferences  inferences  inferences  inferences   inferences  inferences  inferences  inferences  inferences 

You like that word..... Have you tried an easier one, "facts"?
 
2013-06-25 01:42:44 PM

QueenMamaBee: ChaosStar: DROxINxTHExWIND: IS ANYONE ELSE WATCHING THIS TRIAL?? DID YOU SEE THE PICTURES SHOWING WHERE MARTIN'S BODY WAS? LOOK HOW farkING FAR THEY WERE OFF OF THE STREET!!

and that has what to do with anything exactly?

Sidewalks tend not to be extremely far off of a street.


except for when they're a pathway between two condo buildings, as in this case, with the pathway being about 3-5ft away from Martin's body in clear view.
 
2013-06-25 01:43:14 PM

manimal2878: Phinn:

I draw your attention to F.S. s. 776.012 and s. 776.041.

I patiently await your retraction and apology for misleading people about the provisions of Florida law.

776.041Use of force by aggressor.-The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who...: 2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself .

Looks like Zimmerman is farked.

Wait is there hope?
unless:
(a)Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;

There is hope, but it will depend on whether a jury believes that Z. had a reosanably fear he was about to be beaten to death or given a crippling beating, and if they think he tried everything he could before pulling his gun.



Following someone who is so far ahead of you that you lose sight of him does not make you an aggressor.

They were separated.

Then (by some means that was not recorded or witnessed), they ended up at the same spot.  Even DeeDee said that Martin was the first to speak.  GZ responded to Martin's question with a question -- "What are you doing here?"

He didn't respond with BANG!

He didn't respond with a punch (there were no injuries to GZ's hands).

Martin verbally confronted GZ.  GZ responded.  An altercation ensued.  There is no evidence to disprove GZ's self-defense claim that Martin attacked him.  None.

It's good to see you reading actual Florida law, though, rather than Fantasyland Fark law.  It's a start.
 
2013-06-25 01:43:31 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: The really interesting thing about these threads is that some people think deadly force is inappropriate even as someone sits on top of you punching your face into concrete, but if someone dares to walk the same path as you, there should be hell to pay.


this is the line of thinking that is really odd.  by some of the thinking in here, Zimmerman forfeited his right to life the instant he exited his vehicle and began reporting Trayvon to the police.  he certainly had no right to defend himself, because following Trayvon was enough cause to give Trayvon the right to beat Zimmerman to death on the sidewalk.

farking idiots.
 
2013-06-25 01:43:51 PM

parasol: Chaos Star

"not correctly"? I'm sorry, I was unaware there is a correct way to endlessly speculate about a topic on
FARK - nor was I aware you are the designated judge.

I defer to your greater skills - both at non-relevant hypothetical situations AND how best to pose them here


Thank you, please keep that deferment in mind later when you reply to my posts.
 
2013-06-25 01:44:10 PM

Kiriyama9000: Theburner: What I want to know is....  What caliber and what handgun is able to produce a single shot fatality? Shouldn't we be ensuring the police are then armed with the same combination?
Seems the only people the police are able to kill with a single shot are innocent bystanders.

He used a Kel-Tec 9mm handgun with Sellier & Bellot 115gr jacketed hollow-point rounds. He fired one shot that hit TM in the right ventricle of his heart. It'd be hard to miss if you're being straddled. At that distance, a tiny little .22 caliber handgun probably would have been just as fatal.


Say what you want about Zimmerman, but he was a cheapskate based on his gun and ammo choice. Follow this logic...
If you are going out looking for trouble, and know that if you get INTO trouble the cops will confiscate your gun as evidence, do you bring your $3500 Les Baer 1911 loaded with Corbon Pow'rball, or your $300 Kel-Tec loaded with Sellier & Bellot 115gr's.
All I know is my "bump in the night go to gun" isn't my $1400 S&W Performance Center 357, it is my $350 Taurus 357. Both go bang, but one doesn't hurt as much to lose.
 
2013-06-25 01:44:29 PM
QueenMamaBee

First thing taught in all self-defense classes....aim for the eyes or the groin.

Huh. I always thought the first thing was "try not to get into fights."
 
2013-06-25 01:45:38 PM
ChaosStar
                  Certainly - it will also come in handy the next time I am tempted to join the "total fark" cadre
 
2013-06-25 01:48:27 PM

ChaosStar: QueenMamaBee: ChaosStar: DROxINxTHExWIND: IS ANYONE ELSE WATCHING THIS TRIAL?? DID YOU SEE THE PICTURES SHOWING WHERE MARTIN'S BODY WAS? LOOK HOW farkING FAR THEY WERE OFF OF THE STREET!!

and that has what to do with anything exactly?

Sidewalks tend not to be extremely far off of a street.

except for when they're a pathway between two condo buildings, as in this case, with the pathway being about 3-5ft away from Martin's body in clear view.


I'm reffering to the question about WHO was looking for a confrontation. What the fark was Zimmerman doing THAT far from his truck? He was chasing that kid down for a confrontation.
 
2013-06-25 01:48:30 PM

This text is now purple: hinten: Leaving the legal situation aside, what's interesting is that if Zimmerman didn't have a gun nobody would have died that night.

Leaving aside whether that actually follows (bouncing someone's head off of a sidewalk rapidly increases the lethality of an encounter), more people were killed in 2011 by personal assault than by justified homicide.

Given that, Martin was more likely to kill Zimmerman than the opposite.

\Ain't stats fun?

Not

only did you invent stats, you're also not making any sense.
 
2013-06-25 01:48:53 PM

Facetious_Speciest: QueenMamaBee

First thing taught in all self-defense classes....aim for the eyes or the groin.

Huh. I always thought the first thing was "try not to get into fights."


You're right...I do apologize. Second thing taught in self defense.... aim for the eyes or the groin.
 
2013-06-25 01:49:27 PM

ChaosStar: Ohhhhh, ok, I got you now.


Really, I just more curious to why someone would have two flashlights when going out to hunt and kill a person.

I could understand a single 4 cell maglight; could use that as a club.  But two lights?  Hell, I don't even carry ONE flashlight when I get out of the car to shoot someone.
 
2013-06-25 01:49:43 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: BraveNewCheneyWorld: bugontherug: The real conjecture here is that Trayvon started a fight, or did anything other than defend himself against a hostile lethally armed assailant who hunted and harassed him for no good reason.

Because Treyvon Martin doubled back simply to thank Zimmerman for keeping the neighborhood safe.

Why are you worried about Trayvon's intentions, but not Zimmerman's?


Because the spot where they met for their final confrontation required Treyvon to turn around and pursue GZ.  He is the one who apparently had desire for the confrontation and set the tone of the event.
 
2013-06-25 01:50:16 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: IS ANYONE ELSE WATCHING THIS TRIAL?? DID YOU SEE THE PICTURES SHOWING WHERE MARTIN'S BODY WAS? LOOK HOW farkING FAR THEY WERE OFF OF THE STREET!!


I don't know about anyone else, but I'm finding far more entertainment in the bickering in this thread rather than the bickering in the court room.
 
2013-06-25 01:50:39 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: manimal2878: Phinn:

I draw your attention to F.S. s. 776.012 and s. 776.041.

I patiently await your retraction and apology for misleading people about the provisions of Florida law.


776.041Use of force by aggressor.-The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who...: 2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself .

Looks like Zimmerman is farked.

Wait is there hope?

unless:
(a)Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;

There is hope, but it will depend on whether a jury believes that Z. had a reosanably fear he was about to be beaten to death or given a crippling beating, and if they think he tried everything he could before pulling his gun.

Following someone does not qualify as provocation.


Sure it could.
 
2013-06-25 01:50:40 PM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Because the spot where they met for their final confrontation required Treyvon to turn around and pursue GZ. He is the one who apparently had desire for the confrontation and set the tone of the event.


Or maybe it required him to just be walking around or standing still while talking on the phone with a girl?
 
2013-06-25 01:51:08 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: I'm reffering to the question about WHO was looking for a confrontation. What the fark was Zimmerman doing THAT far from his truck? He was chasing that kid down for a confrontation.



The fact and content of the recorded call shows that he was following Martin to report his location to the police.

Is that a crime?

Or is it just so offensive that it justifies beating Zimmerman?
 
2013-06-25 01:51:46 PM

youncasqua: I can't help but notice how Zimmerman's people keep resorting to ad hominem personal attacks, while the Martin people are mostly making good arguments. That makes me think Zimmerman's defense is pretty weak. I don't know much about this case, but reading this thread, it doesn't look good for Zimmerman.


Good luck with that Mr Alt.

Hope you don't gamble your house on it.
 
2013-06-25 01:52:21 PM
QueenMamaBee

Second thing taught in self defense.... aim for the eyes or the groin.

Right-o, then. Zimmerman alleges, however, that Martin went for the firearm first. In his version of events (which the witnesses who saw Martin on top, beating him, conveniently missed, having gone inside to call the police), he basically had to fight for the weapon or die. It's surely possible that a solid blow to the groin or losing an eye might have settled the issue, but he (again, in his own account) was too scared he was about to be murdered to have a go.
 
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