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(CNN)   Zimmerman defense lawyer apologizes to jury for telling knock-knock joke about them in his opening statement, asks them if they've heard the one about Trayvon Martin's favorite flavor of Skittles   (cnn.com) divider line 933
    More: Dumbass, George Zimmerman, Skittles, opening statement, Mark O'Mara, Angela Corey, next of kin, Benjamin Crump, Dean Martin  
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6576 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Jun 2013 at 8:15 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-25 10:36:28 AM

hinten: Why would Martin bash Zimmerman's head on the ground if Martin wasn't afraid for his life if Zimmerman didn't flash his weapon?

And the evidence still doesn't show conclusively that Martin was doing any such thing.



It doesn't have to.  The burden is on the prosecution to conclusively prove that GZ did not reasonably believe Martin posed a threat.

Probably, maybe or inconclusive = not guilty.
 
2013-06-25 10:37:33 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: The only way around this would be to prove that Zimmerman was the initial attacker beyond any reasonable doubt.


you mean like confronting Trayvon, then chasing him down after the police told him not to?  Ok, looks like that's not a problem then.
 
2013-06-25 10:38:01 AM

DrBrownCow: hinten: Fact is, very few brawls end up with someone dying.

If somebody is repeatedly trying to punch me, then I am going to fear for my life.   I'm not going to trust the already questionable decision making skills of the person beating me to stop before I'm critically or fatally wounded.    Any hit could be the fatal blow.  Otherwise healthy people have been punched *once* and died as a result, either due to the blow itself, or the resulting contact with a hard surface.    While very few brawls might lead to someone dying, we're not talking about winning or losing a scratch-off lotto ticket.  If you lose, you aren't just out a dollar, you are dead.


That happened here some years ago at a store.  An otherwise healthy 35ish man got sucker punched in a parking lot, went down JUST the wrong way on a concrete barrier and it killed him.  Yes, it can happen.  I would like to think, however, were I ever in that situation I'd try my best to diffuse it with the threat of gunfire before I pulled the trigger.  I do NOT want to have to kill someone, even if I had to I would be devastated.  Of course, as you say when you're on your back against the road, one punch in just the wrong spot CAN take you out.

Well, hopefully I'll never have to be in that situation and find out.
 
2013-06-25 10:38:19 AM

DrBrownCow: hinten: Fact is, very few brawls end up with someone dying.

If somebody is repeatedly trying to punch me, then I am going to fear for my life.   I'm not going to trust the already questionable decision making skills of the person beating me to stop before I'm critically or fatally wounded.    Any hit could be the fatal blow.  Otherwise healthy people have been punched *once* and died as a result, either due to the blow itself, or the resulting contact with a hard surface.    While very few brawls might lead to someone dying, we're not talking about winning or losing a scratch-off lotto ticket.  If you lose, you aren't just out a dollar, you are dead.


As evidenced by thousands of dead kids in our schoolyards.
 
2013-06-25 10:38:28 AM

rdu_voyager: (just a guess) is that Martin was the one who was the first one to use force of any kind.


A guess in contravention of nearly all the credible evidence pointing to Zimmerman as the first aggressor.

But for the race factor in this case, the question of who started a fist fight between one guy lethally armed, objectively hostile towards, and convinced of the other's criminality, and another guy minding his own business, conducting himself lawfully, unarmed, and with no motive to start a fight would be a simple one. But for the race factor in this case, nearly everyone would agree beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman started the fight.
 
2013-06-25 10:38:56 AM

IamAwake: PoochUMD: IamAwake: PoochUMD: The 17 year old was also using the sidewalk as a weapon.

supported only by the killer, which goes completely against the physical evidence.

Then how did he get those cuts on the back of his head?

a quarter inch cut on the back of the head is not what a bald guy would have after being repeatedly bashed against the sidewalk in a manner that he would reasonably think threatens his life.  A tiny quarter inch cut could have come from falling over and hitting the dirt, who knows - I've seen plenty of people sustain more damage doing exactly that (falling and landing on dirt).  What we can be certain about is that in the real world, if his head was really being bashed against the concrete then it would have had serious damage.  On the back.  Blood, bruising, torn up skin, etc.

Not in MMA, WWE, or whatever other stage thing, perhaps - but in the real world, in a real fight with real humans and real concrete, that's how that really works.

www.guiltpoll.com

Upper left gouge
Laceration center right
Multiple abrasions in the upper right

Not exactly just a "quarter inch cut" and certainly indicative of possible contact with an abrasive surface like concrete.
 
2013-06-25 10:39:26 AM

kendelrio: You haven't been in many fights have you?


I haven't, because I think that when a skull is being bashed against the concrete, it bleeds?  Sorry troll, this is about as much as you'll get from me.
 
2013-06-25 10:39:57 AM

IamAwake: BraveNewCheneyWorld: The only way around this would be to prove that Zimmerman was the initial attacker beyond any reasonable doubt.

you mean like confronting Trayvon, then chasing him down after the police told him not to?  Ok, looks like that's not a problem then.


Can you stop repeating things that are not true. The guy on the phone, who was not a police officer, testified yesterday that he did not order Zimmerman to do or not do anything.
 
2013-06-25 10:40:29 AM

PoochUMD: MFAWG: s2s2s2: Watching the prosecution use farker prosecution tactics was the highlight of my day, yesterday.
My fave was when they tried to make "might be black...ok definitely black" sound like racism.

"He said he's black, AGAIN! Did you ask that second time?!"


The prosecution is hosed.

If he called the cops 47 times to report a suspicious person, and 45 of those times the person in question was black, do you think that might be indicative of something?

Not sure where you got your information from. He called the police 47 times since 2004. The vast majority were about neighbors leaving garage doors open, pot holes or vicious dogs. 16 calls were about suspicious people/vehicles. In 10 of those calls, either no race was given or it was a white male. In one of those cases it was a young black child playing unsupervised on a busy street whose safety he was looking out for. The other 5 were black males, three of which matched the description of a suspect from a previous incident. One was Trayvon Martin.


49 out of 49.
 
2013-06-25 10:41:12 AM

nekom: went down JUST the wrong way on a concrete barrier and it killed him


funny the sorts of damage a skull will take when it hits concrete, isn't it?  And by that I mean a real skull, and real concrete.
 
2013-06-25 10:41:24 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND: ideamaster: And an all female Jury is likely to be another good card if he has to go to an appeals court.

Huh?


"Not a jury of his peers." It's a non-starter case. The "peer" concept isn't remotely that specific.
 
2013-06-25 10:41:32 AM

kendelrio: Garaba: The Physical Evidence does not support that scenario at all.

But witness statements do.... "a witness named John Good who described the fight. "He called it a 'ground and pound' by Martin, who he said was on top of Zimmerman, beating him."
Source


That's what always bugged me about this case. The physical evidence and photographs don't support Zimmerman being on the ground.  John Good's witness statement does however. I have not seen any indication thatJohn Good will testify to this matter in court, and I cant double check right now either. If he is not his recollection of events, motivations and etc... can not be tested. If there was some more transfer from Zimmerman to Martin I could believe it, if his pants and jacket had dirt on it I could believe it.

While I do believe there was some kind of fight. I have serious doubts that Zimmerman has told the truth.
 
2013-06-25 10:42:11 AM

ChaosStar: Multiple abrasions in the upper right


Those aren't abrasions. That's smeared blood from him rubbing the back of his head with his hand.

Also: no concussion. His head wasn't even "bashed" hard enough to cause a concussion. Zimmerman's action movie narrative is a joke.
 
2013-06-25 10:42:31 AM

hinten: ChaosStar: hinten: Leaving the legal situation aside, what's interesting is that if Zimmerman didn't have a gun nobody would have died that night.
And this is not some pansy "butterfly wings", "if he had stayed in the car" type correlation. Fact is, very few brawls end up with someone dying.
Thanks gun owners for making this world a more polite place.

I contend that you're wrong based on this plausible scenario:
Martin is on top of Zimmerman, striking him in some way to make his head contact the concrete repeatedly. Zimmerman says Martin saw his gun and went for it, but without the gun being present Martin doesn't cease his attack and continues to cause Zimmerman's head to strike the concrete. Zimmerman becomes more and more disoriented, eventually slipping into unconsciousness, and then passing away due to traumatic brain injury.

Why would Martin bash Zimmerman's head on the ground if Martin wasn't afraid for his life if Zimmerman didn't flash his weapon?

And the evidence still doesn't show conclusively that Martin was doing any such thing.


I think you have the event order wrong friend.
Martin punches Zimmerman. Broken nose = evidence
They go to the ground
Martin is on top of Zimmerman, striking him in some way. Eye witness = evidence
Zimmerman's jacket, due to gravity and the scuffle, has pulled up exposing his concealed carry weapon.
Martin sees the now exposed gun and goes for it.

This is not Zimmerman "flashing his weapon".
 
2013-06-25 10:42:50 AM

Phinn: hinten: Why would Martin bash Zimmerman's head on the ground if Martin wasn't afraid for his life if Zimmerman didn't flash his weapon?

And the evidence still doesn't show conclusively that Martin was doing any such thing.

It doesn't have to.  The burden is on the prosecution to conclusively prove that GZ did not reasonably believe Martin posed a threat.

Probably, maybe or inconclusive = not guilty.



I'm not discussing the legal situation.
 
2013-06-25 10:42:58 AM

IamAwake: BraveNewCheneyWorld: The only way around this would be to prove that Zimmerman was the initial attacker beyond any reasonable doubt.

you mean like confronting Trayvon, then chasing him down after the police told him not to?  Ok, looks like that's not a problem then.


Again, the law states: "A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."


See section 3
Following TM was not unlawful. Asking him what he was doing is not unlawful. Next try?
 
2013-06-25 10:45:10 AM

This text is now purple: MFAWG: If he called the cops 47 times to report a suspicious person, and 45 of those times the person in question was black, do you think that might be indicative of something?

If you lived in Philadelphia, and witnessed every murder -- 42 of every 50 of your calls to the police would be reporting a black assailant.
http://www.phillypolice.com/assets/PPD.Homicide.Analysis.2012.pdf

Sometimes reality has a racist bias.

\Also, the police would probably be curious why you were present at every murder.


But the Philly thing is actual murder. What makes those 45 out of 47 people "suspicious" other than the fact that they're black and in GZ's neighborhood?
 
2013-06-25 10:45:34 AM
IamAwake:
funny the sorts of damage a skull will take when it hits concrete, isn't it?  And by that I mean a real skull, and real concrete.

If I were on a jury, I would consider it reasonable to fear for your life if your head is being bashed into concrete.  Even if USUALLY it doesn't kill you, you know USUALLY driving around a blind corner on a back country road won't kill you either, 95% of the time it won't, but if I'm in a car with someone doing it, I'm reasonably fearing for my life.

Now they have to convince an entire jury that that's not reasonable?  That's no small order.  Guess we'll see.
 
2013-06-25 10:45:54 AM

hinten: Leaving the legal situation aside, what's interesting is that if Zimmerman didn't have a gun nobody would have died that night.


Leaving aside whether that actually follows (bouncing someone's head off of a sidewalk rapidly increases the lethality of an encounter), more people were killed in 2011 by personal assault than by justified homicide.

Given that, Martin was more likely to kill Zimmerman than the opposite.

\Ain't stats fun?
 
2013-06-25 10:47:08 AM

Garaba: No DNA made it from Zimmerman to Martin something that is highly unlikely given Zimmerman's account of the event.


Maybe. Contact DNA can usually only determine male-on-female or female-on-male. It's currently useless for same-sex encounters.
 
2013-06-25 10:48:50 AM

bugontherug: ChaosStar: Multiple abrasions in the upper right

Those aren't abrasions. That's smeared blood from him rubbing the back of his head with his hand.

Also: no concussion. His head wasn't even "bashed" hard enough to cause a concussion. Zimmerman's action movie narrative is a joke.


No, those are abrasions. Blood is still subject to gravity and doesn't run up the head, or in a sideways horseshoe like above the center right laceration.
You can see the coloration of dried blood in the picture and it in no way matches the skin abrasions.
 
2013-06-25 10:49:11 AM

ChaosStar: Zimmerman's jacket, due to gravity and the scuffle, has pulled up exposing his concealed carry weapon.


Maybe or maybe not at that moment. But the inference is strong that when Trayvon fled, Zimmerman somehow menaced him. Certainly, there was no other reason for Trayvon to flee. He wasn't committing a crime, and wasn't in possession of any contraband materials. Zimmerman did something to physically frighten Trayvon.The man was agitating for a fight.
 
2013-06-25 10:49:42 AM

hinten: Why would Martin bash Zimmerman's head on the ground if Martin wasn't afraid for his life if Zimmerman didn't flash his weapon?

And the evidence still doesn't show conclusively that Martin was doing any such thing.



Because he's "Blah".


/Duh
 
2013-06-25 10:50:11 AM

IamAwake: BraveNewCheneyWorld: The only way around this would be to prove that Zimmerman was the initial attacker beyond any reasonable doubt.

you mean like confronting Trayvon, then chasing him down after the police told him not to?  Ok, looks like that's not a problem then.


Nearly every map comparing the phone call to the situation show that Treyvon had to have gotten far from the scene of the fight, then returned, which points to him being the aggressor of their confrontation.  Besides, simply because someone follows you, isn't cause for violence.
 
2013-06-25 10:50:20 AM

ChaosStar: Upper left gouge
Laceration center right
Multiple abrasions in the upper right


the spot of blood upper-left, if caused by being hit on anything (concrete or otherwise) would have very interesting implications for the position of the body/neck.  People like to use MMA/WWE as examples here - isn't there a move where you pick someone up and drop them on their skull, downward?  Wasn't aware Trayvon supposedly did that.

Find that spot on your own skull.  Now, lay down on the ground, and try to get that spot to touch the ground, without arching your back or breaking your neck.  Remember, sidewalks tend to be rather flat.

the laceration is tiny.  It is not indicative of repeated skull-against-concrete bashings.

I'm not seeing "multiple abrasions" anywhere else.  I'm seeing someone feeling the back of their head with their hand, getting a spot of blood on their hand, and then touching a tiny smear of blood on a couple other places.  It takes very little to get the scalp to bleed - if it only bleeds very little, then it was a very little thing that happened.

I'm also not seeing how chasing someone down, and them getting the better of you, means you need to kill them.  Zimmerman put himself in the situation - he created the situation.  If someone HAS to take a beating - no one should have to, mind you, but if for some reason it is to be argued that it is mandatory - then it should be the person who started and created the situation in the first place.
 
2013-06-25 10:51:01 AM

ChaosStar: No, those are abrasions. Blood is still subject to gravity and doesn't run up the head, or in a sideways horseshoe like above the center right laceration.


It doesn't have to defy gravity when it is moved from one area of the head to another on a palm, or on the end of a finger. It's smeared blood, not abrasions.
 
2013-06-25 10:51:26 AM

kendelrio: IamAwake: BraveNewCheneyWorld: The only way around this would be to prove that Zimmerman was the initial attacker beyond any reasonable doubt.

you mean like confronting Trayvon, then chasing him down after the police told him not to?  Ok, looks like that's not a problem then.

Again, the law states: "A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
See section 3
Following TM was not unlawful. Asking him what he was doing is not unlawful. Next try?


Zimmerman was the attacker, not the attackee.
 
2013-06-25 10:51:36 AM

This text is now purple: Garaba: No DNA made it from Zimmerman to Martin something that is highly unlikely given Zimmerman's account of the event.

Maybe. Contact DNA can usually only determine male-on-female or female-on-male. It's currently useless for same-sex encounters.


Were you the forensic scientist who posted the long explanation about the research done on this type of thing in the thread yesterday?
If so, mind doing it again please? Was a good read for those who think CSI is fact.
 
2013-06-25 10:52:08 AM

bugontherug: the inference is strong that when Trayvon fled, Zimmerman somehow menaced him



Enjoy your self-serving fantasies.  The rest of us will live out here in reality.
 
2013-06-25 10:52:15 AM

IamAwake: nekom: Well, the only difference is that none of the evidence suggests that Zimmerman started the altercation.

he was folling him around, called police, was told to back off, and confronted anyway.  If you're chasing someone down, even if they land the first punch you started it.  There's no possible way for Zimmerman to be justified in his actions.  If a jury sides with him, then that will only mean there was a stupid jury.


It's shocking that at this point, there's still people this stupid. You think they would have learned their lesson from this case that, no, you are never, ever justified in assaulting someone because they are following you and/or calling the cops on you. And, if you do, you might wind up justifiably dead.

IamAwake: kendelrio: So you're saying GZ attacked TM 3 times? Really?

no, I'm not. Your reading comprehension is fail. I'm saying he started a chase(1), confronted (2), and "most would think" that Trayvon should be allowed to ensure that a third time didn't occur.


Really? That's not what you just said here -

IamAwake: If a person attacks someone, then chases them down and attacks them again, then at some point "most would think" that the person being attacked is justified in keeping the attacker from attacking a third time.


Just get out of here dumbass, you're embarrassing to humanity.
 
2013-06-25 10:53:03 AM

bugontherug: ChaosStar: Multiple abrasions in the upper right

Those aren't abrasions. That's smeared blood from him rubbing the back of his head with his hand.

Also: no concussion. His head wasn't even "bashed" hard enough to cause a concussion. Zimmerman's action movie narrative is a joke.


How would you prove that, exactly? Concussions are a syndrome, not an injury. As such, mild ones don't even leave objective evidence of their existence -- you can only infer them. The other hallmark of mild concussions -- the victim is usually unaware they sustained one.
 
2013-06-25 10:53:55 AM

IamAwake: kendelrio: IamAwake: BraveNewCheneyWorld: The only way around this would be to prove that Zimmerman was the initial attacker beyond any reasonable doubt.

you mean like confronting Trayvon, then chasing him down after the police told him not to?  Ok, looks like that's not a problem then.

Again, the law states: "A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
See section 3
Following TM was not unlawful. Asking him what he was doing is not unlawful. Next try?

Zimmerman was the attacker, not the attackee.


By whose account????? Please give me a citation that conclusively states GZ attacked TM!!!! If you can show me evidence that GM jumped him, I will retract everything I have said and rage-quit Fark for 6 months and put a note in my profile you pwned me.
 
2013-06-25 10:54:23 AM
Zimmerman shouldn't have been armed!

Only the people who chuckled, slapped him on the back, and sent him home until the eyes of the nation focused on them should be armed.

Wait wut.
 
2013-06-25 10:54:43 AM
Evidence that GZ attacked TM even....
 
2013-06-25 10:55:23 AM

Phinn: bugontherug: the inference is strong that when Trayvon fled, Zimmerman somehow menaced him

Enjoy your self-serving fantasies.  The rest of us will live out here in reality.


lol
 
2013-06-25 10:55:44 AM

nekom: Now they have to convince an entire jury that that's not reasonable?  That's no small order.  Guess we'll see.


you seem to be missing the point - many are suggesting that the activity, as described by Zimmerman, isn't what happened at all.  That the physical evidence is contrary to his - the killer's - testimony.  Whether activity X would justify something is irrelevant if activity X wasn't actually occurring.
 
2013-06-25 10:55:52 AM

bugontherug: Maybe or maybe not at that moment. But the inference is strong that when Trayvon fled, Zimmerman somehow menaced him. Certainly, there was no other reason for Trayvon to flee. He wasn't committing a crime, and wasn't in possession of any contraband materials. Zimmerman did something to physically frighten Trayvon.The man was agitating for a fight.


Trayvon didn't "flee".  If he had fled Zimmerman would have never ended up on his back with Trayvon on top of him, which is what an eyewitness saw and the evidence indicates.  You can disagree about how you think they ended up in that position.  But you can't deny that is the position they were in when the shot was fired.
 
2013-06-25 10:56:57 AM
PoochUMD:Seriously? There were eye witnesses who saw Martin straddling Zimmerman and beating the crap out of him. There are witnesses that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman the moment of the shot. Are you trying to argue that Zimmerman wasn't on the ground and that Martin was? That's a huge leap that requires you to ignore a bunch of stuff.

Zimmerman was seen pinned down while Martin beat him like a "UFC fighter" what kind of defensive wounds would you expect when you are pinned down?

The police failed to take evidence from Martins hands and didn't even photograph them. Even if Zimmermans account was 100% accurate and Martin had bloody hands moments before being shot, there wouldn't be evidence of it now.


There should be bruising of the wrists and hands where he was pinned. Skin transfer unto Martins nails from grabbing unto a bald head and smashing it into the ground. That's not very easy to do with one hand, you can force his head to the ground once. But pulling it up to do it again requires you to overpower the neck muscles.  Transfer from the ground unto Zimmerman's clothing. Splatter from being hit with a broken nose. And this is assuming Zimmerman was laying there taking it.

And the physical evidence from Martin's body was collected at the morgue. Police are encouraged not to mess with the body if they can avoid it.
 
2013-06-25 10:58:52 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Besides, simply because someone follows you, isn't cause for violence.


It is (they say) if you were being followed for a politically-unpopular reason.

The black males who burglarized the neighborhood could MAYBE have been followed and their locations reported to police.  But the safe thing to do would be to just let them burglarize the neighborhood.  Consider it to be grass-roots self-help reparations for slavery.

But not this black male, see, because he was from out of town, and so it's OUTRAGEOUS for someone to follow THIS black male wandering the neighborhood, and furthermore it's so OUTRAGEOUS that GZ deserved the beating he got for deigning to do so, and thus had no right to defend himself from it.  It's the law.

See?  If you don't subscribe to the State's Officially Designated Position On Race and Everything Else, then you're a non-person and have no protection of the law.

Zimmerman also unfairly criticized ObamaCare right before he pulled the trigger.  True story.  Prove he didn't!

Fry the bastard.
 
2013-06-25 10:59:07 AM

ChaosStar: This text is now purple: Garaba: No DNA made it from Zimmerman to Martin something that is highly unlikely given Zimmerman's account of the event.

Maybe. Contact DNA can usually only determine male-on-female or female-on-male. It's currently useless for same-sex encounters.

Were you the forensic scientist who posted the long explanation about the research done on this type of thing in the thread yesterday?
If so, mind doing it again please? Was a good read for those who think CSI is fact.


No, that was mgshamster. The post is here, i think.
http://www.fark.com/comments/7811580/84982357#c84982357
 
2013-06-25 10:59:19 AM
For those of y'all who think GZ was perfectly justified.... I'd like to see how many of you would like to go out and pick random people and follow them. See how often that behavior results in an ass-beating.

So I guess then you could kill those people and be perfectly justified?
 
2013-06-25 10:59:59 AM

kendelrio: By whose account????? Please give me a citation that conclusively states GZ attacked TM!!!! If you can show me evidence that GM jumped him, I will retract everything I have said and rage-quit Fark for 6 months and put a note in my profile you pwned me.


you seriously don't consider chasing down someone who is running away from you, to be an assault on them?  To be a physical threat?  Really?  An attack doesn't mean you finish the entire situation, pack up your bags, and leave for the night.  An attack means you *start* a situation.  Thus the reason someone can be simply defending themselves, never attacking, yet still win out.

at·tack/əˈtak/VerbTake aggressive action against (a place or enemy forces) with weapons or armed force: "in December, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor".NounAn aggressive and violent action against a person or place: "he was killed in an attack on a checkpoint".Synonymsverb.assault - assailnoun.assault - onset - aggression - fit - offensive - charge
 
2013-06-25 11:01:13 AM

IamAwake: nekom: Now they have to convince an entire jury that that's not reasonable?  That's no small order.  Guess we'll see.

you seem to be missing the point - many are suggesting that the activity, as described by Zimmerman, isn't what happened at all.  That the physical evidence is contrary to his - the killer's - testimony.  Whether activity X would justify something is irrelevant if activity X wasn't actually occurring.


All of the physical evidence at the very least does nothing to rebuke Zimmerman's claim.  What NONE of use know AT ALL is exactly how the confrontation started.  Zimmerman claims Martin started it, as he naturally would whether that be the case or not.  Martin isn't around to tell his side of the story.  Zimmerman did have injuries, I'll admit they didn't look too bad but having your head down on concrete with someone on top of you (which at least one witness confirms was how they wound up) could spark a reasonable fear for one's life.

Zimmerman may be lying.  He may be totally full of shiat, but for lack of any solid evidence to contradict his story, what in the world does the prosecution have to go on here?
 
2013-06-25 11:01:31 AM

Phinn: bugontherug: the inference is strong that when Trayvon fled, Zimmerman somehow menaced him

Enjoy your self-serving fantasies.  The rest of us will live out here in reality.


"Self-serving?" LOL. Because I obviously benefit from this so much!

The only self-serving narrative in this whole case passed through George Zimmerman's lips.

I forgot to add another reason we know Zimmerman somehow menaced Trayvon: his changed story. On Hannity, Zimmerman's story changed from Trayvon fleeing to Trayvon rather merrily "skipping" away.

Either story works against Zimmerman, of course. The events as revealed by the telephone conversation prove Zimmerman was agitating for a fight. The events suggested by his later, evolved narrative kill even the remotest possibility that the playful, child-like little boy who skipped away from the hostile, cursing man on the telephone had any reason at all to start a fight.

But whatever happened, Zimmerman's evolving story tells us what? Say it with me now:

Consciousness of wrongdoing, from which we may infer, in conjunction with the mountain of other evidence, Zimmerman's guilt.
 
2013-06-25 11:01:51 AM

kendelrio: Garaba: The Physical Evidence does not support that scenario at all.

But witness statements do.... "a witness named John Good who described the fight. "He called it a 'ground and pound' by Martin, who he said was on top of Zimmerman, beating him."
Source


so wait, a witness saw the ground and pound?  Well then this witness obviously got a good look at Zimm's self-inflicted wounds right?  I mean, the DNA wasn't on Martin so Zimmerman must have self-inflicted those wounds to frame the dead kid.  I've solved this case.  Someone get the witness on the stand.
 
2013-06-25 11:02:02 AM
Huh....it didn't post my whole cut/paste of the definition...

at·tack
/əˈtak/
Verb   Take aggressive action against (a place or enemy forces) with weapons or armed force: "in December, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor".
Noun  An aggressive and violent action against a person or place: "he was killed in an attack on a checkpoint".
Synonyms
verb.assault - assail
noun.assault - onset - aggression - fit - offensive - charge
 
2013-06-25 11:02:43 AM

IamAwake: ChaosStar: Upper left gouge
Laceration center right
Multiple abrasions in the upper right

the spot of blood upper-left, if caused by being hit on anything (concrete or otherwise) would have very interesting implications for the position of the body/neck.  People like to use MMA/WWE as examples here - isn't there a move where you pick someone up and drop them on their skull, downward?  Wasn't aware Trayvon supposedly did that.

Find that spot on your own skull.  Now, lay down on the ground, and try to get that spot to touch the ground, without arching your back or breaking your neck.  Remember, sidewalks tend to be rather flat.

the laceration is tiny.  It is not indicative of repeated skull-against-concrete bashings.

I'm not seeing "multiple abrasions" anywhere else.  I'm seeing someone feeling the back of their head with their hand, getting a spot of blood on their hand, and then touching a tiny smear of blood on a couple other places.  It takes very little to get the scalp to bleed - if it only bleeds very little, then it was a very little thing that happened.

I'm also not seeing how chasing someone down, and them getting the better of you, means you need to kill them.  Zimmerman put himself in the situation - he created the situation.  If someone HAS to take a beating - no one should have to, mind you, but if for some reason it is to be argued that it is mandatory - then it should be the person who started and created the situation in the first place.


The gouge in the upper left is in a prime position to contact the sidewalk and bled profusely
cdn2-b.examiner.com

Look in the upper right of this photo. Notice the darker purple area, in contract with the bright red of the blood? That's abrasion and bruising of the skin, where it contacted the concrete hard enough to cause damage but not to break the dermal layers to release blood. This is a sign of blunt force trauma.

It's not the "them getting the better of you" that justifies the self defense. It's the head bashing, and the going for the weapon that does.
 
2013-06-25 11:02:56 AM

QueenMamaBee: For those of y'all who think GZ was perfectly justified

...

What's your proof that he wasn't justified?  He's presumed innocent, you know.

(No, you don't know.  I get it.  You're just talking out of your ass.)
 
2013-06-25 11:03:33 AM

mayIFark: Bontesla: mayIFark: Hypothetically speaking, say Zimmerman walks free, does that mean, I can walk up to you, and start beating the shiat out of you, and as soon as you fight back and start beating me, I can shoot you? I wonder how come gangsters have not figure this method out yet? Its full proof.

Once I start beating you, you got two options really

1) do nothing and take the beating - I win.
2) fight back - I shoot you - I win.

Am I missing any significant piece that makes this different from Zimmerman case?

The Greyston Garcia case would interest you. Garcia successfully killed someone under the SYG defense. Garcia came upon someone stealing his radio. Garcia chased the thief a few blocks and a fight broke out. Garcia stabbed the thief, hid the knife, took back his radio while also stealing other items from the body (which he sold) and then napped.

The case never went to trial because he used the Stand Your Ground defense and won.

Zimmerman had an opportunity to use SYG but didn't. Had he used it, there would have been a pre-trial hearing that could have released him from all charges.

I was under the impression that he did, and that is why he didn't get arrested or charged initially. He only got charged after some people tried for a while to bring media attention to this case.


No. He wasn't arrested because the DA decided not to bring charges. The SYG is a legal defense that is settled in a pretrial hearing. He opted out of a SYG defense after about a year of weighing his options.
 
2013-06-25 11:04:07 AM

Garaba: There should be bruising of the wrists and hands where he was pinned. Skin transfer unto Martins nails from grabbing unto a bald head and smashing it into the ground. That's not very easy to do with one hand, you can force his head to the ground once. But pulling it up to do it again requires you to overpower the neck muscles.  Transfer from the ground unto Zimmerman's clothing. Splatter from being hit with a broken nose. And this is assuming Zimmerman was laying there taking it.


You can pin someone by sitting on their chest, and if they not in good shape, most people won't be able to lift you off of their chest and arms.  Bruising isn't required, and you're making a wild assumption that he was pinned by his hands and wrists, pretty stupid considering he was also being punched.  Also, your fist reaction upon having your head smashed into the ground, isn't to force your head into the ground with your neck muscles.
 
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