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(The New York Times)   Who would have guessed that hiring lawyers fresh out of law school for $160k per year wasn't sustainable?   (dealbook.nytimes.com) divider line 74
    More: Obvious, law schools, excess capacity, Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP, Sanofi  
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3311 clicks; posted to Business » on 24 Jun 2013 at 3:56 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-24 03:30:26 PM
Great way to not read TFA. They aren't cutting associate pay. They are firing some, and cutting partner pay. That's how things work with sticky nominal wages.
 
2013-06-24 03:50:16 PM
cdn.meme.li
 
2013-06-24 03:51:14 PM
I had considered going to law school after I got my Bachelor's, but with the glut of lawyers on the market, the massive debt I would have been in, and the intrusion of legal ethics into my personal ethics decided against that for me.
 
2013-06-24 04:00:01 PM
I'm wondering how many of these lawyers scoffed at the idea of raising minimum wage or blocking H1-Bs.

/Not anti-lawyer, late beloved Pops was one
 
2013-06-24 04:03:05 PM

ArkAngel: I had considered going to law school after I got my Bachelor's, but with the glut of lawyers on the market, the massive debt I would have been in, and the intrusion of legal ethics into my personal ethics decided against that for me.


Not to mention the terribly boring reading and heart attack hours it would require to get to partner level.

Crazy thing is that a lot of the professions that have that require a lot of reading and subject knowledge are getting replaced by software. Accounting, legal, some medical stuff.

On the other hand, we really should be approaching a golden age in automation to the point where lots of work is replaced by robots and a little further down the road, AI. Once most stuff is done by robots, one would think the vast majority of people could get by doing little of anything.

The problem of course is that wealth is not distributed in that way, and resources are (somewhat) finite, and our use of those resources needs to be curbed in a big way for our lifestyles to be sustainable.
 
2013-06-24 04:03:44 PM
That's odd.

I'd recently read somewhere that new law school grads were taking jobs for $20K, and that it was becoming a problem for them to repay loans.
 
2013-06-24 04:08:26 PM
Associates?

Ready for Wal-Mart!
 
2013-06-24 04:08:41 PM
Wow - although i cannot say i am surprised at Weil, Gotshal as they had a fairly overextended partner compensation scheme from what i hear.
 
2013-06-24 04:17:43 PM

ArkAngel: I had considered going to law school after I got my Bachelor's, but with the glut of lawyers on the market, the massive debt I would have been in, and the intrusion of legal ethics into my personal ethics decided against that for me.


I've decided I'm going to whatever ABA-accredited school will give me a full-ride, USNWR rankings be damned.  I won't get an elite Biglaw job, but I also won't be $200k in the hole.

/with undergrad and cost of living for Law School I'll still probably have $100k in debt... thank FSM for income-based repayment
 
2013-06-24 04:25:38 PM

meat0918: That's odd.

I'd recently read somewhere that new law school grads were taking jobs for $20K, and that it was becoming a problem for them to repay loans.


Law school problems are overstated, in the sense that the expectation is infinitely too high for students and new grads.  Hell, my town (Charleston, SC) is hiring cops right now, and the top starting wage offered is ~$45k for candidates with a JD.  I mean, that sucks, but $45k > $20k > $0, and someone with public loans who doesn't make much can consolidate them into the Fed income-based repayment and public service plans.  Work as a cop for ten years, your loan costs 10% of your monthly discretionary income, and the rest is forgiven after those ten years.

Of course, most law students get into trouble by taking out private loans, which are nigh undischargable.  And the banks basically take a "fark you, pay me" approach to repayment of them.  It wouldn't be so ridiculous if schools weren't still charging $50k a year, but people are going into it with private loans and no guarantee of a Biglaw job waiting when they graduate.

Long story short: American 20somethings are dumb

/trying not to be dumb
 
2013-06-24 04:38:46 PM
Well when 60-70% of law can be done by an Expert System, yeah the bottom is about to fall out of job market for lawyers.
 
2013-06-24 04:40:01 PM

meat0918: That's odd.

I'd recently read somewhere that new law school grads were taking jobs for $20K, and that it was becoming a problem for them to repay loans.


Well, there's the big NYC corporate law firms which compete with each other for the top law school grads, and then there's everybody else.  For the Big Law firms, the amount they pay for new associates is a point of pride, so they're loathe to cut that salary because it's a sign of weakness.
 
2013-06-24 04:59:12 PM

The Dreaded Rear Admiral: Of course, most law students get into trouble by taking out private loans, which are nigh undischargable.  And the banks basically take a "fark you, pay me" approach to repayment of them.  It wouldn't be so ridiculous if schools weren't still charging $50k a year, but people are going into it with private loans and no guarantee of a Biglaw job waiting when they graduate.

Long story short: American 20somethings are dumb

/trying not to be dumb


I think it's more a problem of being promised the world and then expecting to get what they were promised. We wanted everyone to go to college and promised them great jobs when they graduated. Then they actually went to college and found out that there are only so many college level jobs. Degree inflation set in and now you need a college degree to be a file clerk. The education requirements for jobs keeps going up but the pay stays the same.
 
2013-06-24 05:12:18 PM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: Of course, most law students get into trouble by taking out private loans, which are nigh undischargable.  And the banks basically take a "fark you, pay me" approach to repayment of them.  It wouldn't be so ridiculous if schools weren't still charging $50k a year, but people are going into it with private loans and no guarantee of a Biglaw job waiting when they graduate.

Long story short: American 20somethings are dumb

/trying not to be dumb

I think it's more a problem of being promised the world and then expecting to get what they were promised. We wanted everyone to go to college and promised them great jobs when they graduated. Then they actually went to college and found out that there are only so many college level jobs. Degree inflation set in and now you need a college degree to be a file clerk. The education requirements for jobs keeps going up but the pay stays the same.


Oh, 100%. I've been saying for years now that one of the biggest disservices we as a culture did was to devalue the trade schools and apprenticeships and tell every little unique snowflake they were going to college. Even when it was painfully obvious that a good half of my HS graduating class was in no way traditional college material.
 
2013-06-24 05:20:01 PM

The Dreaded Rear Admiral: ArkAngel: I had considered going to law school after I got my Bachelor's, but with the glut of lawyers on the market, the massive debt I would have been in, and the intrusion of legal ethics into my personal ethics decided against that for me.

I've decided I'm going to whatever ABA-accredited school will give me a full-ride, USNWR rankings be damned.  I won't get an elite Biglaw job, but I also won't be $200k in the hole.

/with undergrad and cost of living for Law School I'll still probably have $100k in debt... thank FSM for income-based repayment


Don't do it.  Get out now.  I don't know a single attorney that says they would do it again.  Me, I would learn something useful.  Like juggling.
 
2013-06-24 05:45:14 PM

Slaves2Darkness: Well when 60-70% of law can be done by an Expert System, yeah the bottom is about to fall out of job market for lawyers.


Or lawyers in India.
 
2013-06-24 05:46:14 PM
The jig was up once people realized all you have to do is be a massive douchebag and sprinkle latin in your sentences here and there.

Seriously, unless you need a criminal defense attorney, just check out the appropriate NOLO book from your local library and do it yourself.  Even with the deflated salaries lawyers aren't worth it these days.  Most legal crap is easier than plumbing, it's just boring and requires sifting through lots of documents and calling around to clerks and bureaucrats. Taxes are much harder, because the US tax code is gibberish.
 
2013-06-24 05:56:44 PM

Bacontastesgood: The jig was up once people realized all you have to do is be a massive douchebag and sprinkle latin in your sentences here and there.

Seriously, unless you need a criminal defense attorney, just check out the appropriate NOLO book from your local library and do it yourself.  Even with the deflated salaries lawyers aren't worth it these days.  Most legal crap is easier than plumbing, it's just boring and requires sifting through lots of documents and calling around to clerks and bureaucrats. Taxes are much harder, because the US tax code is gibberish.


I also do my own surgery.

Seriously, if it matters, hire a professional.
 
2013-06-24 06:08:50 PM

Milo Minderbinder: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: ArkAngel: I had considered going to law school after I got my Bachelor's, but with the glut of lawyers on the market, the massive debt I would have been in, and the intrusion of legal ethics into my personal ethics decided against that for me.

I've decided I'm going to whatever ABA-accredited school will give me a full-ride, USNWR rankings be damned.  I won't get an elite Biglaw job, but I also won't be $200k in the hole.

/with undergrad and cost of living for Law School I'll still probably have $100k in debt... thank FSM for income-based repayment

Don't do it.  Get out now.  I don't know a single attorney that says they would do it again.  Me, I would learn something useful.  Like juggling.


Heh. So I've heard. And of course I've read about a brazillion doom-and-gloom law school/law practice articles. And I've tried to talk myself out of it. The thing is though, it just makes so much sense for me.

I'm an interesting guy (I think) but I'm perfectly happy with a tedious paper-pushing job. I'm the guy who would vote to watch Calculon double check his math rather than see him race to the shootout in his Hover Ferrari. Speaking of Ferraris, I'm in no way starry-eyed about getting some fat Biglaw job that will bleed me dry until I make partner. I'm perfectly willing to "get by" at a mediocre salary. Better than nothing. Plus there ARE other things that you can do with a JD. The continuum is NOT "Lawyer or Barista", despite what the internets would have you believe.

AND the law really interests me, always has. I'm perfectly aware that real lawyers do nothing like they show on SVU. But it's interesting to me... at least the study of it is. It's intellectual. Plus my dad would be proud of me! (I know that's a bad reason).

With the public loan repayment options, there's plenty of choices and leeway, and I'm going to the school that offers the most generous finaid program (my grades are top notch, just waiting on the LSAT). And, of course, if its true and I'm miserable or can't find work... I can always reach, or go back to school. I'm hoping to get an MA along the way as well, so there's options.

Plus no kids. So I can be a poor student.

So anyway, lets just say I've thought it through. I'm not one of those Studio Art grads who goes to law school when no other option presents itself. Honestly, I could take the GRE and get into some arts grad program or get an MBA, but those are unappealing to me. I think I'd really be upset at myself if I didn't at least make a go at law.
 
2013-06-24 06:24:40 PM

Milo Minderbinder: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: ArkAngel: I had considered going to law school after I got my Bachelor's, but with the glut of lawyers on the market, the massive debt I would have been in, and the intrusion of legal ethics into my personal ethics decided against that for me.

I've decided I'm going to whatever ABA-accredited school will give me a full-ride, USNWR rankings be damned.  I won't get an elite Biglaw job, but I also won't be $200k in the hole.

/with undergrad and cost of living for Law School I'll still probably have $100k in debt... thank FSM for income-based repayment

Don't do it.  Get out now.  I don't know a single attorney that says they would do it again.  Me, I would learn something useful.  Like juggling.


I would do it again.  I liked it.
 
2013-06-24 06:26:16 PM

Bacontastesgood: The jig was up once people realized all you have to do is be a massive douchebag and sprinkle latin in your sentences here and there.

Seriously, unless you need a criminal defense attorney, just check out the appropriate NOLO book from your local library and do it yourself.  Even with the deflated salaries lawyers aren't worth it these days.  Most legal crap is easier than plumbing, it's just boring and requires sifting through lots of documents and calling around to clerks and bureaucrats. Taxes are much harder, because the US tax code is gibberish.


I have seen. examined and defended against pro se patent applications. Blindly following the NOLO books make them even easier to defeat.

//retired patent attorney and former patent examiner
 
2013-06-24 06:27:10 PM

The Dreaded Rear Admiral: Milo Minderbinder: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: ArkAngel: I had considered going to law school after I got my Bachelor's, but with the glut of lawyers on the market, the massive debt I would have been in, and the intrusion of legal ethics into my personal ethics decided against that for me.

I've decided I'm going to whatever ABA-accredited school will give me a full-ride, USNWR rankings be damned.  I won't get an elite Biglaw job, but I also won't be $200k in the hole.

/with undergrad and cost of living for Law School I'll still probably have $100k in debt... thank FSM for income-based repayment

Don't do it.  Get out now.  I don't know a single attorney that says they would do it again.  Me, I would learn something useful.  Like juggling.

Heh. So I've heard. And of course I've read about a brazillion doom-and-gloom law school/law practice articles. And I've tried to talk myself out of it. The thing is though, it just makes so much sense for me.

I'm an interesting guy (I think) but I'm perfectly happy with a tedious paper-pushing job. I'm the guy who would vote to watch Calculon double check his math rather than see him race to the shootout in his Hover Ferrari. Speaking of Ferraris, I'm in no way starry-eyed about getting some fat Biglaw job that will bleed me dry until I make partner. I'm perfectly willing to "get by" at a mediocre salary. Better than nothing. Plus there ARE other things that you can do with a JD. The continuum is NOT "Lawyer or Barista", despite what the internets would have you believe.

AND the law really interests me, always has. I'm perfectly aware that real lawyers do nothing like they show on SVU. But it's interesting to me... at least the study of it is. It's intellectual. Plus my dad would be proud of me! (I know that's a bad reason).

With the public loan repayment options, there's plenty of choices and leeway, and I'm going to the school that offers the most generous finaid program (my grades are top notch, just waiting on the LSAT). A ...


You're going in with clear eyes and the right mindset.  You'll be light years ahead of your peers when you start.  My advice: take an LSAT class.  Admissions right now are really uncompetitive.  If you apply with a strong score, schools will throw scholarships at you.
 
2013-06-24 06:28:56 PM

Milo Minderbinder: Don't do it.  Get out now.  I don't know a single attorney that says they would do it again.  Me, I would learn something useful.  Like juggling.


Really? None? I love being a lawyer. 18 years in.

I don't know what I would do otherwise, other than rock star of course.
 
2013-06-24 06:32:57 PM

shut_it_down: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: Milo Minderbinder: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: ArkAngel: I had considered going to law school after I got my Bachelor's, but with the glut of lawyers on the market, the massive debt I would have been in, and the intrusion of legal ethics into my personal ethics decided against that for me.

I've decided I'm going to whatever ABA-accredited school will give me a full-ride, USNWR rankings be damned.  I won't get an elite Biglaw job, but I also won't be $200k in the hole.

/with undergrad and cost of living for Law School I'll still probably have $100k in debt... thank FSM for income-based repayment

Don't do it.  Get out now.  I don't know a single attorney that says they would do it again.  Me, I would learn something useful.  Like juggling.

Heh. So I've heard. And of course I've read about a brazillion doom-and-gloom law school/law practice articles. And I've tried to talk myself out of it. The thing is though, it just makes so much sense for me.

I'm an interesting guy (I think) but I'm perfectly happy with a tedious paper-pushing job. I'm the guy who would vote to watch Calculon double check his math rather than see him race to the shootout in his Hover Ferrari. Speaking of Ferraris, I'm in no way starry-eyed about getting some fat Biglaw job that will bleed me dry until I make partner. I'm perfectly willing to "get by" at a mediocre salary. Better than nothing. Plus there ARE other things that you can do with a JD. The continuum is NOT "Lawyer or Barista", despite what the internets would have you believe.

AND the law really interests me, always has. I'm perfectly aware that real lawyers do nothing like they show on SVU. But it's interesting to me... at least the study of it is. It's intellectual. Plus my dad would be proud of me! (I know that's a bad reason).

With the public loan repayment options, there's plenty of choices and leeway, and I'm going to the school that offers the most generous finaid program (my grades are top notch, just waiting on the LSAT). A ...

You're going in with clear eyes and the right mindset.  You'll be light years ahead of your peers when you start.  My advice: take an LSAT class.  Admissions right now are really uncompetitive.  If you apply with a strong score, schools will throw scholarships at you.


I did take one =). It ended a week before the June test but I decided to take the prof's advice and kick it to the October test instead to better prepare.

And you're right! It's actually the best time in decades to apply to law school right now. Of course, it's the worst time to get OUT of law school now, but hey, I got four years til I need to worry about that.
 
2013-06-24 06:35:17 PM

The Dreaded Rear Admiral: Law school problems are overstated, in the sense that the expectation is infinitely too high for students and new grads.  Hell, my town (Charleston, SC) is hiring cops right now, and the top starting wage offered is ~$45k for candidates with a JD.


I routinely dissuade people who ask me about going to law school when they think its just a shortcut to getting rich. The last thing my profession needs is a glut of new, bad lawyers who have no respect for the craft but figured it was the next best thing, since getting rich at that incomeathome.com thing didn't really pan out.

I find people often don't believe me when I try and explain to them that no, associates do not land $200k jobs straight out of law school so they can easily to pay off the $200k in debt they will accrue. Whatever, they'll figure it out the hard way then.
 
2013-06-24 06:36:15 PM
Better Call Saul!
4.bp.blogspot.com

/Got nothin'
//Anxiously waiting. 7 more weeks.
 
2013-06-24 06:43:31 PM

gilgigamesh: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: Law school problems are overstated, in the sense that the expectation is infinitely too high for students and new grads.  Hell, my town (Charleston, SC) is hiring cops right now, and the top starting wage offered is ~$45k for candidates with a JD.

I routinely dissuade people who ask me about going to law school when they think its just a shortcut to getting rich. The last thing my profession needs is a glut of new, bad lawyers who have no respect for the craft but figured it was the next best thing, since getting rich at that incomeathome.com thing didn't really pan out.

I find people often don't believe me when I try and explain to them that no, associates do not land $200k jobs straight out of law school so they can easily to pay off the $200k in debt they will accrue. Whatever, they'll figure it out the hard way then.


Indeed. The problem is one of perception. Law school isn't for just any BA grad (that's what journalism school is for hiyoooooo), but its often the last bastion of the bored arts major. Loan money is WAY easy to get so law schools are more than happy to keep tuitions outrageous. Fourth tier schools opened up everywhere the last decade or so, so 120 LSATs have a place to waste $50k a year plus cost of living. And of course the profession has contracted, and good people lost their jobs (like all industries in the Great Recession), but the chaff described above was hardest hit when they didn't get the $160k Biglaw offer out of Weehawken Nightime Academy of Law.

There's jobs out there for people who have the right mindset and actually have a passion for their work, so I'm not worried.
 
2013-06-24 06:47:07 PM

The Dreaded Rear Admiral: There's jobs out there for people who have the right mindset and actually have a passion for their work, so I'm not worried.


You obviously have both, so you shouldn't be worried.

But no, I'm not hiring. ;-)
 
2013-06-24 06:55:08 PM
Wife was Class of 11, about 20% of her class who passed the bar are not practicing due to the  glut, but almost all are in positions where the the law degree is a plus for them so it is not useless, in fact many are reevaluating if they want to practice or not.  She was fortunate, she landed a position 10 days after passing the  bar, but she was also Law Review, did a Judicial externship, was a Center for Children's rights fellow and had been a family law paralegal for 12 years before deciding to take the  next step.

We will both be at retirement age when we get her loans paid off, but she was called to it, so it is worth the  cost and doing things like driving a Honda instead of a BMW and living in a nice middle class neighborhood and not in some McMansion

If you think you want to be an attorney go get some real world experience in a profession related to the  field of law you think you want to practice in, not only will it help you decide, but it does make you more marketable when you do pass the  bar and remember you most likely will never be rich but you can live well and that is not just in the  monetary sense.
 
2013-06-24 07:08:00 PM

The Dreaded Rear Admiral: Milo Minderbinder: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: ArkAngel: I had considered going to law school after I got my Bachelor's, but with the glut of lawyers on the market, the massive debt I would have been in, and the intrusion of legal ethics into my personal ethics decided against that for me.

I've decided I'm going to whatever ABA-accredited school will give me a full-ride, USNWR rankings be damned.  I won't get an elite Biglaw job, but I also won't be $200k in the hole.

/with undergrad and cost of living for Law School I'll still probably have $100k in debt... thank FSM for income-based repayment

Don't do it.  Get out now.  I don't know a single attorney that says they would do it again.  Me, I would learn something useful.  Like juggling.

Heh. So I've heard. And of course I've read about a brazillion doom-and-gloom law school/law practice articles. And I've tried to talk myself out of it. The thing is though, it just makes so much sense for me.

I'm an interesting guy (I think) but I'm perfectly happy with a tedious paper-pushing job. I'm the guy who would vote to watch Calculon double check his math rather than see him race to the shootout in his Hover Ferrari. Speaking of Ferraris, I'm in no way starry-eyed about getting some fat Biglaw job that will bleed me dry until I make partner. I'm perfectly willing to "get by" at a mediocre salary. Better than nothing. Plus there ARE other things that you can do with a JD. The continuum is NOT "Lawyer or Barista", despite what the internets would have you believe.

AND the law really interests me, always has. I'm perfectly aware that real lawyers do nothing like they show on SVU. But it's interesting to me... at least the study of it is. It's intellectual. Plus my dad would be proud of me! (I know that's a bad reason).

With the public loan repayment options, there's plenty of choices and leeway, and I'm going to the school that offers the most generous finaid program (my grades are top notch, just waiting on the LSAT). And, of course, if its true and I'm miserable or can't find work... I can always reach, or go back to school. I'm hoping to get an MA along the way as well, so there's options.

Plus no kids. So I can be a poor student.

So anyway, lets just say I've thought it through. I'm not one of those Studio Art grads who goes to law school when no other option presents itself. Honestly, I could take the GRE and get into some arts grad program or get an MBA, but those are unappealing to me. I think I'd really be upset at myself if I didn't at least make a go at law.


I don't mean to crap in your nachos, but you are saying the same things every prospective law student says.

The big problem is, that salaries are stagnant because law schools have figured out that there are millions of people like you, willing to overpay for a degree, with only a vague hope of profitable employment afterwards.

Seriously, do you know what kind of salary you will have to earn for $100k debt? What is your likelihood of getting that kind of job?
 
2013-06-24 07:18:55 PM

mcreadyblue: Slaves2Darkness: Well when 60-70% of law can be done by an Expert System, yeah the bottom is about to fall out of job market for lawyers.

Or lawyers in India.


I read somewhere that somebody set up a help desk like services for lawyers were they can call in and tell them what case law they need to have reviewed and what precedents they need, and they will research it for them and give them all of the information for a fee. I would think that would also put a dent in the starting pay of new lawyers.
 
2013-06-24 07:24:01 PM
This firm is JUST NOW getting around to making massive cuts?  They're way behind the curve. Big law has been slashing things for several years now.  Can't tell you how many layoffs my firm has had, and it's been especially awful as my department is one of the few non-billable.

Going into law has been the dumbest possible move for any college student for going on five years now.  No excuse for anyone crazy or stupid enough to be graduating in the next few years from anything but a top-tier school, and only if daddy owns a corporation or two.  They had to have completely failed to research anything about it before going in otherwise.

/big law peon
//started seven years ago during the champaign and hooker years
///it's not pretty these days
 
2013-06-24 07:30:04 PM
Here's an example for all you budding attorneys out there: in my government office, half the paralegals earn more than half the attorneys. Why? Because a good paralegal is really hard to find. But a good attorney probably served you coffee this morning, or worse, asked you for spare change.
 
2013-06-24 07:38:21 PM

The Dreaded Rear Admiral: (Going to law school regardless of the warnings)


People going into law school these days make me think of idiot teenagers who don't believe they can die.  "Hold my beer and watch this!" they yell as they dive headfirst off the bridge into shallow waters (which grow shallower each year).  "Nothing bad will happen to me!"

Sometimes - just sometimes - the people trying to warn you about reality do actually know what they're talking about and are trying to do you a massive favor.  Listening to them, rather than assuming they just don't understand your story, can be a wise decision.
 
2013-06-24 07:43:40 PM
Partners at law firms:

Required to bill 1500-1800 hours per year, 5-7 year partnership track, practically guaranteed, received full equity shares on making partner.

Current associates at law firms:

Required to bill 2100-2400 hours, 8-10 year partnership track, not guaranteed. Generally receive non-equity partnership status for 3-5 years before becoming a full partner with a piece of the action.

Greedy baby boomers -- is there ANYTHING that they touch that doesn't turn to shiat?
 
2013-06-24 07:49:33 PM
My wife went into law-school(GWU) back in Sept. of 07.   She had taught the LSAT prior to entering law school, and had a full-ride scholarship as well.   Thanks to health issues she had to drop out after one semester.  We remained friends with people she went to school with.   The guy that graduated number 1 took 6 months to find a position as public defender in Queens.  I'm so happy she left to become an EE.  The company she works for is growing big time, and the CEO just got nominated to the international board for their area, so she has some great branding for her resume.

/also helps that the CEO is her daddy.
 
2013-06-24 08:20:39 PM
Mr. Wolf, the executive chairman of Weil, said that while the layoffs would help the firm's profits, the move was not about reducing expenses to pad partners' bank accounts.

"This is not about cost-cutting but about the future of the firm and strategically positioning us for the next five years," Mr. Wolf said. "In an unrelated matter, I'd like to announce my upcoming retirement in five years. My plan is to cash out all of my equity and go on a world cruise on my private yacht. It's environmentally sound, as it is paddled by a slave force of unemployed law students."
 
2013-06-24 08:22:35 PM

Teiritzamna: Milo Minderbinder: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: ArkAngel: I had considered going to law school after I got my Bachelor's, but with the glut of lawyers on the market, the massive debt I would have been in, and the intrusion of legal ethics into my personal ethics decided against that for me.

I've decided I'm going to whatever ABA-accredited school will give me a full-ride, USNWR rankings be damned.  I won't get an elite Biglaw job, but I also won't be $200k in the hole.

/with undergrad and cost of living for Law School I'll still probably have $100k in debt... thank FSM for income-based repayment

Don't do it.  Get out now.  I don't know a single attorney that says they would do it again.  Me, I would learn something useful.  Like juggling.

I would do it again.  I liked it.


I'd do it again, too. Patent law is awesome.

/full scholarships and working full time during school is also awesome
 
2013-06-24 08:23:32 PM

The Dreaded Rear Admiral: I'm an interesting guy (I think) but I'm perfectly happy with a tedious paper-pushing job. I'm the guy who would vote to watch Calculon double check his math rather than see him race to the shootout in his Hover Ferrari. Speaking of Ferraris, I'm in no way starry-eyed about getting some fat Biglaw job that will bleed me dry until I make partner. I'm perfectly willing to "get by" at a mediocre salary. Better than nothing. Plus there ARE other things that you can do with a JD. The continuum is NOT "Lawyer or Barista", despite what the internets would have you believe.


Oh, you... The first thing you'll learn at law school is that it's spelled barrister.
 
2013-06-24 08:23:37 PM

Freudian_slipknot: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: (Going to law school regardless of the warnings)

People going into law school these days make me think of idiot teenagers who don't believe they can die.  "Hold my beer and watch this!" they yell as they dive headfirst off the bridge into shallow waters (which grow shallower each year).  "Nothing bad will happen to me!"

Sometimes - just sometimes - the people trying to warn you about reality do actually know what they're talking about and are trying to do you a massive favor.  Listening to them, rather than assuming they just don't understand your story, can be a wise decision.


So, no one should go ever, regardless of drive, interest, options, and the ability to pay for it?

There should just be no lawyers ever? Stop, right now, no graduates? No more?
 
2013-06-24 08:31:00 PM

Milo Minderbinder: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: Milo Minderbinder: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: ArkAngel: I had considered going to law school after I got my Bachelor's, but with the glut of lawyers on the market, the massive debt I would have been in, and the intrusion of legal ethics into my personal ethics decided against that for me.

I've decided I'm going to whatever ABA-accredited school will give me a full-ride, USNWR rankings be damned.  I won't get an elite Biglaw job, but I also won't be $200k in the hole.

/with undergrad and cost of living for Law School I'll still probably have $100k in debt... thank FSM for income-based repayment

Don't do it.  Get out now.  I don't know a single attorney that says they would do it again.  Me, I would learn something useful.  Like juggling.

Heh. So I've heard. And of course I've read about a brazillion doom-and-gloom law school/law practice articles. And I've tried to talk myself out of it. The thing is though, it just makes so much sense for me.

I'm an interesting guy (I think) but I'm perfectly happy with a tedious paper-pushing job. I'm the guy who would vote to watch Calculon double check his math rather than see him race to the shootout in his Hover Ferrari. Speaking of Ferraris, I'm in no way starry-eyed about getting some fat Biglaw job that will bleed me dry until I make partner. I'm perfectly willing to "get by" at a mediocre salary. Better than nothing. Plus there ARE other things that you can do with a JD. The continuum is NOT "Lawyer or Barista", despite what the internets would have you believe.

AND the law really interests me, always has. I'm perfectly aware that real lawyers do nothing like they show on SVU. But it's interesting to me... at least the study of it is. It's intellectual. Plus my dad would be proud of me! (I know that's a bad reason).

With the public loan repayment options, there's plenty of choices and leeway, and I'm going to the school that offers the most generous finaid program (my grades are top notch, just waiting on the LSAT). And, of course, if its true and I'm miserable or can't find work... I can always reach, or go back to school. I'm hoping to get an MA along the way as well, so there's options.

Plus no kids. So I can be a poor student.

So anyway, lets just say I've thought it through. I'm not one of those Studio Art grads who goes to law school when no other option presents itself. Honestly, I could take the GRE and get into some arts grad program or get an MBA, but those are unappealing to me. I think I'd really be upset at myself if I didn't at least make a go at law.

I don't mean to crap in your nachos, but you are saying the same things every prospective law student says.

The big problem is, that salaries are stagnant because law schools have figured out that there are millions of people like you, willing to overpay for a degree, with only a vague hope of profitable employment afterwards.

Seriously, do you know what kind of salary you will have to earn for $100k debt? What is your likelihood of getting that kind of job?


A, lol no I'm not. I'm quite familiar with how others justify it, I go to school with them. Not even close.

B, how much I have to make? Here, let me Google that for you:
http://bit.ly/12lXxgT
http://bit.ly/LtVTF3
http://bit.ly/12eWN1p
Oh, and no private loans.

Yeah, yeah. I get it. I'm a moron for wanting to go into law. I've heard it. Maybe, just maybe, there's room for people who have flexibility, options, and do it smart? Just MAYBE? Hmm.
 
2013-06-24 08:32:52 PM

Theaetetus: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: I'm an interesting guy (I think) but I'm perfectly happy with a tedious paper-pushing job. I'm the guy who would vote to watch Calculon double check his math rather than see him race to the shootout in his Hover Ferrari. Speaking of Ferraris, I'm in no way starry-eyed about getting some fat Biglaw job that will bleed me dry until I make partner. I'm perfectly willing to "get by" at a mediocre salary. Better than nothing. Plus there ARE other things that you can do with a JD. The continuum is NOT "Lawyer or Barista", despite what the internets would have you believe.

Oh, you... The first thing you'll learn at law school is that it's spelled barrister.


Heh. Also, nice to see that a few popped in saying they'd do it again. The hairshirts that think anything besides a hard science is a waste of time get trying in occasion.

Considering health care law, actually. Looks to be a growth field?
 
2013-06-24 08:38:47 PM

The Dreaded Rear Admiral: Also, nice to see that a few popped in saying they'd do it again. The hairshirts that think anything besides a hard science is a waste of time get trying in occasion.


Teirit and I are both in IP and are such hard science hairshirts.

Hence:
Considering health care law, actually.

You're boned.
 
2013-06-24 08:39:46 PM

The Dreaded Rear Admiral: So, no one should go ever, regardless of drive, interest, options, and the ability to pay for it?

There should just be no lawyers ever? Stop, right now, no graduates? No more?


What a lovely false dichotomy you've created.  Yes, the current wild over-abundance of lawyers and obscenely inflated costs of worthless law degrees means no one ever should become an attorney.  Not just that entering the legal field right now (or likely in the next decade) is an absolute fools errand unless you're going to a top-tier school and daddy plays golf with the CEO of a few Fortune 500s.

Best of luck competing with the thousands of other folks who think, like you, that they're somehow different than all of the other folks who made the same bad decision.
 
2013-06-24 08:46:16 PM

Freudian_slipknot: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: So, no one should go ever, regardless of drive, interest, options, and the ability to pay for it?

There should just be no lawyers ever? Stop, right now, no graduates? No more?

What a lovely false dichotomy you've created.  Yes, the current wild over-abundance of lawyers and obscenely inflated costs of worthless law degrees means no one ever should become an attorney.  Not just that entering the legal field right now (or likely in the next decade) is an absolute fools errand unless you're going to a top-tier school and daddy plays golf with the CEO of a few Fortune 500s.

Best of luck competing with the thousands of other folks who think, like you, that they're somehow different than all of the other folks who made the same bad decision.


I'll be fine, but thanks for your concern =))
 
2013-06-24 08:46:26 PM

The Dreaded Rear Admiral: Milo Minderbinder: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: Milo Minderbinder: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: ArkAngel: I had considered going to law school after I got my Bachelor's, but with the glut of lawyers on the market, the massive debt I would have been in, and the intrusion of legal ethics into my personal ethics decided against that for me.

I've decided I'm going to whatever ABA-accredited school will give me a full-ride, USNWR rankings be damned.  I won't get an elite Biglaw job, but I also won't be $200k in the hole.

/with undergrad and cost of living for Law School I'll still probably have $100k in debt... thank FSM for income-based repayment

Don't do it.  Get out now.  I don't know a single attorney that says they would do it again.  Me, I would learn something useful.  Like juggling.

Heh. So I've heard. And of course I've read about a brazillion doom-and-gloom law school/law practice articles. And I've tried to talk myself out of it. The thing is though, it just makes so much sense for me.

I'm an interesting guy (I think) but I'm perfectly happy with a tedious paper-pushing job. I'm the guy who would vote to watch Calculon double check his math rather than see him race to the shootout in his Hover Ferrari. Speaking of Ferraris, I'm in no way starry-eyed about getting some fat Biglaw job that will bleed me dry until I make partner. I'm perfectly willing to "get by" at a mediocre salary. Better than nothing. Plus there ARE other things that you can do with a JD. The continuum is NOT "Lawyer or Barista", despite what the internets would have you believe.

AND the law really interests me, always has. I'm perfectly aware that real lawyers do nothing like they show on SVU. But it's interesting to me... at least the study of it is. It's intellectual. Plus my dad would be proud of me! (I know that's a bad reason).

With the public loan repayment options, there's plenty of choices and leeway, and I'm going to the school that offers the most generous finaid program (my grades are top notch, just waiting on the LSAT). And, of course, if its true and I'm miserable or can't find work... I can always reach, or go back to school. I'm hoping to get an MA along the way as well, so there's options.

Plus no kids. So I can be a poor student.

So anyway, lets just say I've thought it through. I'm not one of those Studio Art grads who goes to law school when no other option presents itself. Honestly, I could take the GRE and get into some arts grad program or get an MBA, but those are unappealing to me. I think I'd really be upset at myself if I didn't at least make a go at law.

I don't mean to crap in your nachos, but you are saying the same things every prospective law student says.

The big problem is, that salaries are stagnant because law schools have figured out that there are millions of people like you, willing to overpay for a degree, with only a vague hope of profitable employment afterwards.

Seriously, do you know what kind of salary you will have to earn for $100k debt? What is your likelihood of getting that kind of job?

A, lol no I'm not. I'm quite familiar with how others justify it, I go to school with them. Not even close.

B, how much I have to make? Here, let me Google that for you:
http://bit.ly/12lXxgT
http://bit.ly/LtVTF3
http://bit.ly/12eWN1p
Oh, and no private loans.

Yeah, yeah. I get it. I'm a moron for wanting to go into law. I've heard it. Maybe, just maybe, there's room for people who have flexibility, options, and do it smart? Just MAYBE? Hmm.


Nope, not at all. Because you aren't smarter than everyone else. You are in that big fat middle of the bell curve, just like everyone else. Here is your first (and last) free law lesson: you aren't special, and there are thousands who are willing to what you can for a lot less.

Here is a reasonable alternative: you give me half of your law school expenses, and I come to your house and punch you in the balls every day for three years.

Trust me, will come out ahead.
 
2013-06-24 08:56:17 PM

The Dreaded Rear Admiral: I'll be fine, but thanks for your concern =))


Yes.  You're definitely different and special.  Just like everyone else.
 
2013-06-24 08:57:30 PM
yeah well my wife got 169 on the LSAT.
 
2013-06-24 09:17:18 PM

Milo Minderbinder: The Dreaded Rear Admiral: ArkAngel: I had considered going to law school after I got my Bachelor's, but with the glut of lawyers on the market, the massive debt I would have been in, and the intrusion of legal ethics into my personal ethics decided against that for me.

I've decided I'm going to whatever ABA-accredited school will give me a full-ride, USNWR rankings be damned.  I won't get an elite Biglaw job, but I also won't be $200k in the hole.

/with undergrad and cost of living for Law School I'll still probably have $100k in debt... thank FSM for income-based repayment

Don't do it.  Get out now.  I don't know a single attorney that says they would do it again.  Me, I would learn something useful.  Like juggling.


Listen to Milo Minderbinder!  He's absolutely right.  I thought about law school, and not going (and ultimately taking a job followed by a master's degree in a STEM field) was without a shadow of a doubt the best decision I ever made.
 
2013-06-24 09:51:36 PM

Girion47: yeah well my wife got 169 on the LSAT.


Mine got a 178. Freakin' insane.

/I only got a 172. But I begged and pleaded and got a scholarship too.
 
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