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(Sportige)   NBA head coaches can't seem to hang on to their jobs, or maybe NBA teams don't have enough patience, with only four NBA head coaches at their current job for more than three seasons   (sportige.com) divider line 35
    More: Interesting, Indiana Pacers, NBA, Scott Brooks, Charlotte Bobcats, Flip Saunders, Detroit Pistons, head coaches, NBA head coaches  
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300 clicks; posted to Sports » on 24 Jun 2013 at 1:30 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-24 01:38:53 PM  
Maybe teams should try an unknown name instead of running through the same set of failures.

The Heat went with Spoelstra, and it's worked out.

The Lakers thought that Mike Brown and Mike D'Antoni were good ideas because people had heard of them.

The Nets hired PJ Carlesimo.

Don't be the Nets.
 
2013-06-24 01:39:59 PM  
Pretty much proves that coaches mean squat in the NBA.
 
2013-06-24 01:44:27 PM  

deanis: Pretty much proves that coaches mean squat in the NBA.


Oh coaches can have a lot of influence on a team.  For example, if your team is coached by Mike D'Antoni, they're going to suck.
 
2013-06-24 01:47:13 PM  

deanis: Pretty much proves that coaches mean squat in the NBA.


i disagree.....when the team tunes out a coach, that's game over for the franchise.  while coaches are largely figureheads in all sports (NFL and MLB being excepted, as they make bona fide decisions that affect the outcome, i.e., going for the TD instead of hte FG, a fake punt, the old "righty v lefty" pitchign switch, etc.), basketball is so fluid and quick, I don't think you can say coaches mean squat.  they don't in terms of the play, at least nearly as much as the defensive or offensive schemes affect hoops as much as those sports, but it is unquestionable that when a team respects their coach, they'll hustle.  When they tune him out, that's catastrophic.

stan van gundy was a dead man walking, pj carlesimo's tenure in NYC, or perhaps the best recent example being jerry sloan getting run out of town in utah because that one dude decided to tank it.  coaches mean a lot but not so much in on the court  game decisions.
 
2013-06-24 01:50:30 PM  
SHAK-SHAK-SHAK
SHAKA SMART
SHAKA SMART
SHAKA SMART
 
2013-06-24 01:51:55 PM  

Arkanaut: For example, if your team is coached by Mike D'Antoni, they're going to suck.


i'd be surprised if he's the coach come opening day.  now, i don't know his status, but, for all the BS the lakers went through this year, i'd be not shocked, but surprised if they keep him around.  he has a style he likes to play (news flash) but aside from not having the horses to run that system, it doesn't seem like the lakers ever bought into him.

mainly because of how badly they bungled the apparent rapprochement with phillip, but.....do the laker faithful think Mike can lead them anywhere?  doubt it.
 
2013-06-24 01:53:02 PM  

Arkanaut: Oh coaches can have a lot of influence on a team.


Yeah, there's a reason wherever Tom Thibodeau is coaching that team's defense seems to be pretty damn good.
 
2013-06-24 02:01:10 PM  
Gee, sports teams owned by daytraders, shysters, and conmen demonstrate a marked lack of patience when it comes to buying success? Color me shocked.
 
2013-06-24 02:02:55 PM  

Arkanaut: deanis: Pretty much proves that coaches mean squat in the NBA.

Oh coaches can have a lot of influence on a team.  For example, if your team is coached by Mike D'Antoni, they're going to suck.


How many more games would the love child of Phil Jackson and Red Auerbach have won with that team?  The triangle offense ain't won shiat without MJ or Kobe.
 
2013-06-24 02:12:16 PM  
Huh.  Those are the only teams to have appeared the in the finals in the last 3 years.  It's almost like it takes more than just a couple of seasons to turn a team around.
 
2013-06-24 02:16:12 PM  

GQueue: Arkanaut: Oh coaches can have a lot of influence on a team.

Yeah, there's a reason wherever Tom Thibodeau is coaching that team's defense seems to be pretty damn good.


Lots of respect for Lionel Hollins too -- Memphis didn't make the playoffs because of Zach Randolph, that's for sure.


InfrasonicTom: Arkanaut: deanis: Pretty much proves that coaches mean squat in the NBA.

Oh coaches can have a lot of influence on a team.  For example, if your team is coached by Mike D'Antoni, they're going to suck.

How many more games would the love child of Phil Jackson and Red Auerbach have won with that team?  The triangle offense ain't won shiat without MJ or Kobe.


IIRC the Bulls made the Conference Finals both years that MJ was retired (the first time).  Plus, do the Lakers -- even without Kobe -- really look much worse personnel-wise than, let's say, this year's Spurs? You don't think Popovich could have done what he did with Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard to Jodie Meeks and Earl Clark?
 
2013-06-24 02:17:30 PM  

Dafatone: Don't be the Nets.


This.

FormlessOne: Gee, sports teams owned by daytraders, shysters, and conmen demonstrate a marked lack of patience when it comes to buying success? Color me shocked.


Yep.

InfrasonicTom: How many more games would the love child of Phil Jackson and Red Auerbach have won with that team?  The triangle offense ain't won shiat without MJ or Kobe.


That's a valid question, but I think we can all agree that Phil Jackson probably would not have attempted to turn Pau Gasol into Chris Bosh*.  I'm basing this on the fact that when Phil Jackson coached Pau Gasol he did not attempt to turn him into Chris Bosh.  D'Antoni's Laker problem was that he tried to make the team he had fit the system he wanted to play rather than tweaking the system to maximize the production of each player on his team.  He also appears to be pretty bad at dealing with egomaniacal players, although I can't really cite any concrete evidence of that beyond the really weird interviews and media potshots that his players were involved in.

*Where Chris Bosh = PF/C who plays at or near the 3-pt line to space the floor whose primary focus isn't rebounding/post play.
 
2013-06-24 02:24:12 PM  

Arkanaut: IIRC the Bulls made the Conference Finals both years that MJ was retired (the first time).


They lost in the 2nd round both years.
 
2013-06-24 02:25:31 PM  

deanis: Pretty much proves that coaches mean squat in the NBA is a player's first league and if a bunch of petulant whiny ass players want a coach fired, he will be.

FTFY

 
2013-06-24 02:26:14 PM  

logggur: Dafatone: Don't be the Nets.

This.


A friend of mine made a pretty good point.  The Nets needed to be good enough this past year to pull in fans, and that's really all they needed.  A foot in the door, marketingwise.  Carlesimo may have been a safe bet to make the playoffs, show a little something, and then fail miserably, so that there's a good fan base in place for next year.

Personally, I think the Nets' roster is crazy talented, and a good coach could have made a very strong run with them (well, it's not like they were beating Miami, but oh well,) and pretty much any coach would have gotten at least a 5 or 6 seed with them.  But I see my friend's point.
 
2013-06-24 02:29:21 PM  

rickythepenguin: while coaches are largely figureheads in all sports (NFL and MLB being excepted, as they make bona fide decisions that affect the outcome, i.e., going for the TD instead of hte FG, a fake punt, the old "righty v lefty" pitchign switch, etc.),


NFL, absolutely.  However, I'd say the sport where head coaches/managers matter the least is the MLB.  Most everything they do is rote, and they don't do much of *that*.  I'd say the riskiest thing they have on their plate is giving the steal sign- and that's very rare.

Its been pretty well proven that even the batting lineup isn't all that big of a deal.  And pitching matchups, like I mentioned, are pretty much rote.

People who've studied it say a great manager is good for 5 extra wins among the 162 games you play.  And the worst manager is good for 5 losses, conversely.
 
2013-06-24 02:33:55 PM  

downstairs: Most everything they do is rote


What's a rote?
 
2013-06-24 02:36:25 PM  

Dafatone: logggur: Dafatone: Don't be the Nets.

This.

A friend of mine made a pretty good point.  The Nets needed to be good enough this past year to pull in fans, and that's really all they needed.  A foot in the door, marketingwise.  Carlesimo may have been a safe bet to make the playoffs, show a little something, and then fail miserably, so that there's a good fan base in place for next year.

Personally, I think the Nets' roster is crazy talented, and a good coach could have made a very strong run with them (well, it's not like they were beating Miami, but oh well,) and pretty much any coach would have gotten at least a 5 or 6 seed with them.  But I see my friend's point.


It's definitely true that they felt the pressure to be a contender immediately, although I'm of the opinion that their roster was inherently flawed and never would have stood a serious chance against top tier teams in the East.  That being said I like some of the talent on their roster, but a few guys are on some incredibly bad contracts that are going to eventually force the management to pay other teams to take using their draft picks.  We're talking Isaiah Thomas Knicks level of bad contracts.

I think a better coach than Carlesimo last season would have been the difference between losing to the Bulls in the first round and losing to the Heat in the second.
 
2013-06-24 02:39:38 PM  

downstairs: However, I'd say the sport where head coaches/managers matter the least is the MLB


yeah, it is pretty rote - it usually gets more attention when the manager doesn't make the "book" play (i.e., not makign the righty/left pitching switch).  but there's still a lot of in-game strategy, albeit rote, that the NBA just doesn't have.  you can say you're playing the triangle, or a hurry-up, seven seconds or less style, or play the playoff slowdown offense, but, when you diagram a play, after the second pass, it is a jailbreak.

or, look at what so many playoff games become, especially the last several years (sayign this as someone who doesn't really watch much NBA):  "give the ball to the best player, hopefully he can make a play".  there's no strategy at that point.  "get the ball, make a shot, i'll say that's exactly what we wanted if it works and if not, i'll say we didn't get the 'look' we needed...."
 
2013-06-24 02:40:03 PM  

InfrasonicTom: Arkanaut: deanis: Pretty much proves that coaches mean squat in the NBA.

Oh coaches can have a lot of influence on a team.  For example, if your team is coached by Mike D'Antoni, they're going to suck.

How many more games would the love child of Phil Jackson and Red Auerbach have won with that team?  The triangle offense ain't won shiat without MJ or Kobe.


This is pretty much my argument. A great player or two (LBJ & Wade) (MJ & Pippen) (Shaq & Kobe) can trump any scheme as long as the role players aren't amputees. I really don't think that Spoelstra has control of that team. He just hasn't done much to screw it up like other coaches might have done. He did come close though in the first year of the "big 3".
 
2013-06-24 02:45:52 PM  

downstairs: People who've studied it say a great manager is good for 5 extra wins among the 162 games you play.


i've said before, it was funny when Torre came to the Dodgers, with not a lot of talent and managed them to NL West mediocrity...then they get Manny Ramirez, Manny goes absolutely bananas in august/september, and manny singlehandedly takes Los Doyers to the playoffs.  the narrative went from, "maybe joe isn't the greatest manager" to "ZOMG A JOE TORRE TEAM MAKES THE PLAYOFFS FOR THE 14TH CONSECUTIVE SEASON, JOE TORRE, ULTIMATE PLAYOFF GENIUSWIZARD!"
 
2013-06-24 02:58:03 PM  

downstairs: Arkanaut: IIRC the Bulls made the Conference Finals both years that MJ was retired (the first time).

They lost in the 2nd round both years.


We should probably count the first year as at least the ECF because Hue Hollins.
 
2013-06-24 03:13:20 PM  

JusticeandIndependence: downstairs: Most everything they do is rote

What's a rote?


Rote (in this case) is managing by the book, with no creative thought.  Because there is very little creativity when it comes to managing baseball.  I love the sport, but just pointing out that the manager does very little relative to other sports.

The line up is somehat obvious (yes, I know there are reasons to tinker- like trying to get someone out of a slump).  Your speed/hits guy leads off... your big homerun hitters are put in the 3 and 4 slot, etc.

Managers can generally fall asleep (literally- its probably happened) during a game and still win.
 
2013-06-24 03:13:43 PM  

GQueue: downstairs: Arkanaut: IIRC the Bulls made the Conference Finals both years that MJ was retired (the first time).

They lost in the 2nd round both years.

We should probably count the first year as at least the ECF because Hue Hollins.


Ugh.  Don't remind me.
 
2013-06-24 03:23:15 PM  
That's not as bad as the EPL. Only 1 manager out of the 20 teams has been there more than 2.5 seasons. Champions League and Premier League winning managers have been fired within a year of their trophies.
 
2013-06-24 03:32:26 PM  

downstairs: Because there is very little creativity when it comes to managing baseball.


one of the more novel coachign decisions in MLB i ever saw was about a decade ago, then-Snakes manager Buck Showalter walked Barry Bonds with the bases loaded.  Not sure what the score or inning was, or for that matter, if the Snakes won, but i do remember Lamar being very dismissive of the tactic but Buck insisting it was the right move.  barry was not happy but, hey, buck figured one run versus the possibility of a grand slam was worth the gamble.

and i went to a recent Snakes game where Gibby let the pitcher bat with a man on, down a couple of runs in the 5th or 6th or so.  "The book" says you pull him for the PH, but Gibby explained after the game (and the gambit didn't pay off) that with the bullpen as taxed as it was, he didn't want to have to burn the bullpen that early.

rarely do you see those kinds of moves in the NBA.  yeah, this year's playoffs, Hibbert wasn't on the floor in that Heat win, and then in what, Game 4 (5?) Duncan wasn't on the floor, but those are pretty uncommon.  NBA is just so damn fluid.  so much is beyond the coach's control.
 
2013-06-24 03:51:09 PM  

rickythepenguin: downstairs: Because there is very little creativity when it comes to managing baseball.

one of the more novel coachign decisions in MLB i ever saw was about a decade ago, then-Snakes manager Buck Showalter walked Barry Bonds with the bases loaded.  Not sure what the score or inning was, or for that matter, if the Snakes won, but i do remember Lamar being very dismissive of the tactic but Buck insisting it was the right move.  barry was not happy but, hey, buck figured one run versus the possibility of a grand slam was worth the gamble.

and i went to a recent Snakes game where Gibby let the pitcher bat with a man on, down a couple of runs in the 5th or 6th or so.  "The book" says you pull him for the PH, but Gibby explained after the game (and the gambit didn't pay off) that with the bullpen as taxed as it was, he didn't want to have to burn the bullpen that early.

rarely do you see those kinds of moves in the NBA.  yeah, this year's playoffs, Hibbert wasn't on the floor in that Heat win, and then in what, Game 4 (5?) Duncan wasn't on the floor, but those are pretty uncommon.  NBA is just so damn fluid.  so much is beyond the coach's control.


Totally disagree with lineup changes not being relevant in the NBA.  Check out the Heat minutes distribution during the Finals:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201306200MIA.html

Shane Battier went from DNP in Game 7 vs. Indiana, to playing less than 10 minutes a game in the Finals, to playing 28 minutes in Game 7 vs. San Antonio.  Ray Allen went from ~20 mpg to playing more than Wade in Game 6.  Chris Anderson got two DNPs in the Finals and then made a big impact in the last two games.  Certainly a lot of basketball is putting your best players on the floor for as long as humanly possible, but playing the proper matchups during rest time for stars, managing foul trouble, and riding a role player's hot streak can be the difference between losing the championship at home in 6 vs. winning in 7.
 
2013-06-24 03:58:01 PM  

logggur: Totally disagree with lineup changes not being relevant in the NBA. Check out the Heat minutes distribution during the Finals:


yeah, i guess when you pick out the data you can find obvious examples where i'm wrong (and even i noted the Hibbert/Duncan thing).....my point is the in-game management.  basketball is a much quicker sport with less time to make MLB or NFL type decisions.  You can create or exploit matchup problems in NBA, but MLB doesn't really have that and the NFL a tiny bit (you might attack a slow/rookie CB).

i guess a counterexample....aside from the lineup shuffle, who on the Heat saw Danny Green becomgin such a factor?  that's what i mean.  so much happens in teh course and flow of a game that the coach just can't account for.  (or who foresaw Ginobili deciding over and over and over that turning the ball over was a good way to lose the series?)
 
2013-06-24 04:45:39 PM  

logggur: That's a valid question, but I think we can all agree that Phil Jackson probably would not have attempted to turn Pau Gasol into Chris Bosh*. I'm basing this on the fact that when Phil Jackson coached Pau Gasol he did not attempt to turn him into Chris Bosh.


Phil Jackson also had a functioning Lamar Odom on that team, which allowed Pau to play inside more when Bynum was on the bench.
 
2013-06-24 04:48:59 PM  

rickythepenguin: "give the ball to the best player, hopefully he can make a play". there's no strategy at that point. "get the ball, make a shot, i'll say that's exactly what we wanted if it works and if not, i'll say we didn't get the 'look' we needed...."


Wait...

rickythepenguin: (sayign this as someone who doesn't really watch much NBA)


Yeah, i can tell.
 
2013-06-24 09:15:14 PM  
ITT: A bunch of people who know nothing about the sport of basketball talking about how simple it is while, laughably, talking about how important a manager is in baseball.

/any fan in the crowd could manage a baseball team and not reduce the chances the team would lose
//wait, take the pitcher out when he's tired or ineffective? THIS IS SO COMPLICATED
 
2013-06-24 09:49:04 PM  
Sadder than the fact that only four have been around that long - if Gregg Popovich were to retire when Tim Duncan does (as he's suggested - seemingly jokingly, but still), and Duncan retired this offseason - Erik Spoelstra will be the longest-tenured coach in the NBA.
 
2013-06-25 04:48:01 AM  

IAmRight: ITT: A bunch of people who know nothing about the sport of basketball talking about how simple it is while, laughably, talking about how important a manager is in baseball.

/any fan in the crowd could manage a baseball team and not reduce the chances the team would lose
//wait, take the pitcher out when he's tired or ineffective? THIS IS SO COMPLICATED


This. I could manage an MLB team as well as anyone. MLB manager is the most overrated position in sports.
 
2013-06-25 12:38:25 PM  

Chupacabra Sandwich: IAmRight: ITT: A bunch of people who know nothing about the sport of basketball talking about how simple it is while, laughably, talking about how important a manager is in baseball.

/any fan in the crowd could manage a baseball team and not reduce the chances the team would lose
//wait, take the pitcher out when he's tired or ineffective? THIS IS SO COMPLICATED

This. I could manage an MLB team as well as anyone. MLB manager is the most overrated position in sports.


The hard part is keeping your team motivated / energized / playing well / not bored over the six months a season lasts.  In game management is usually overrated.

Although a manager can still blow games.  Looking at you, Art Howe.
 
2013-06-25 06:02:06 PM  

Dafatone: The hard part is keeping your team motivated / energized / playing well / not bored over the six months a season lasts.


Exactly - I could run a team baseball-wise but I probably wouldn't have success over the long haul because it'd be tough for people to accept being told what their job is by someone who didn't play past middle school.

The local A ball team is doing a "be a manager for a day" promo...was impressed that the actual manager would go along with it since it has the potential to be really embarrassing if they win easily that day. Then I was told that basically the winner just gets to sit in the dugout and get paid like the manager for a day (and gets to take out the lineup card. Still kinda cool...but man, I wish they would actually be allowed to manage.
 
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