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(NPR)   Even by the most conservative estimates, rising sea levels will wipe Miami off the map by the end of the century, and there is nothing that can be done about it except live in denial. Well, good   (npr.org ) divider line
    More: Scary, sea-level rise, Miami, Saigon, denials, Watergate, Swiss cheese, pump station, South Florida metropolitan area  
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8386 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jun 2013 at 1:05 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-24 02:42:02 PM  

FrancoFile: First of all, I'm not a whargarbl denier. I'm merely pointing out that PV panels are not a panacea.

Second, you don't understand the manufacturing process at all.

Let's just take arsenic as an example. Arsenic bound into rock is very stable. But when you mine that rock, you crush it, which releases dust, which gets into the air and water and disperses widely. Then you have to refine it and transport it (ditto). Then when you use it to create GaAs or to dope Si, it gets into all of the manufacturing equipment (which eventually has to be replaced/repaired/disposed of).

My point is that there are tradeoffs for EVERYTHING, and just because you've got PV panels doesn't mean you've done your job and everyone else can go screw themselves.


Maybe you've confused me with someone who has attacked you, but, I haven't.  Not sure where the attitude came from.

I _do_ understand the manufacturing process.  I also understand that they have control systems and necessary and appropriate precautions in place when handling, you know, arsenic and stuff.  Yeah, dust would be a problem, they probably manage to deal with that effectively.  Regardless, I wonder what the mass of doped silicon is used by the solar power industry vs. the computer chip industry.  I don't know.  Is it 100:1, 1:100, or about even?  I have no idea.  Pretty sure an industry that size has it figured out, though.

I also don't know where you got a "go screw themselves" message out of what I posted.  The closest I came was "arguing about it on a website doesn't accomplish anything; go out and plant some trees or put up some solar panels or something".
 
2013-06-24 02:42:14 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: Why is Miami considered the biggest vulnerability?  What will this do to Hawaii, or the Bahama?  Is Miami one of those dumbass cities that is built below sea level, like New Orleans?


Florida is very flat.  When the slope of the land at the current shore line is shallow, small changes in sea level have a widespread effect.  I can't find a link to that google map app that lets you change the sea level, but Miami goes under quickly.  The results are sometimes counterintuitive--the central valley of California becomes an inland sea, while SF has lost little more than Fisherman's Wharf, because SF is steep and hilly.  One of the popular Carribean islands also has very little land more than a few meters above current sea level--I can't remember if it is Bahama or Bermuda.  (Many "islands" are really just sandbars that have developed topsoil.)  I haven't looked at Hawaii, but it has a lot of topography--the current beaches and the most expensive real estate might be toast, but the islands as a whole will probably OK for quite a while.
 
2013-06-24 02:43:44 PM  

letrole: In 1995, Carl Sagan was in the same room as Richard Dawkins at the University of Bern.

The meeting generated a super-charged plasma ball of incandescent smarmy douche that could power a city the size of Doncaster for two weeks.


But instead it was sucked into the black hole of your intelligence and caused no measurable effect on your vacuousness.
 
2013-06-24 02:46:22 PM  

flondrix: AdolfOliverPanties: Why is Miami considered the biggest vulnerability?  What will this do to Hawaii, or the Bahama?  Is Miami one of those dumbass cities that is built below sea level, like New Orleans?

Florida is vacuousvery flat.  When the slope of the land at the current shore line is shallow, small changes in sea level have a widespread effect.  I can't find a link to that google map app that lets you change the sea level, but Miami goes under quickly.  The results are sometimes counterintuitive--the central valley of California becomes an inland sea, while SF has lost little more than Fisherman's Wharf, because SF is steep and hilly.  One of the popular Carribean islands also has very little land more than a few meters above current sea level--I can't remember if it is Bahama or Bermuda.  (Many "islands" are really just sandbars that have developed topsoil.)  I haven't looked at Hawaii, but it has a lot of topography--the current beaches and the most expensive real estate might be toast, but the islands as a whole will probably OK for quite a while.

 
2013-06-24 02:46:52 PM  

DesertDemonWY: jaytkay: DesertDemonWY: 1948 was higher than 1980

Cherry-picking two data points to "disprove" a decades-long trend. Are you dumb or innumerate?

WhyNotBoth.jpg

I have to ask again. What are you getting out of this? Is being dishonest fun for you?

How am I being dishonest? I'm not denying the trend, only showing that there is no increase in the rate of rise


Your dishonesty is not being questioned.

The question is why? Do you enjoy lying? Are you paid to do it?
 
2013-06-24 02:48:29 PM  

jaytkay: DesertDemonWY: jaytkay: DesertDemonWY: 1948 was higher than 1980

Cherry-picking two data points to "disprove" a decades-long trend. Are you dumb or innumerate?

WhyNotBoth.jpg

I have to ask again. What are you getting out of this? Is being dishonest fun for you?

How am I being dishonest? I'm not denying the trend, only showing that there is no increase in the rate of rise

Your dishonesty is not being questioned.

The question is why? Do you enjoy lying? Are you paid to do it?


Who cares why and or if he's wrong.  What are YOU doing about it?  Actually doing?  Arguing on a website, or something useful?
 
2013-06-24 02:49:01 PM  

DesertDemonWY: I'm not denying the trend


Oh?

DesertDemonWY: only showing that there is no increase in the rate of rise


Wait, but you said...huh?
 
2013-06-24 02:49:49 PM  

Jon iz teh kewl: DesertDemonWY: Mrtraveler01: DesertDemonWY: Mrtraveler01: DesertDemonWY: Bullfarkingshiat

[www.psmsl.org image 350x140]

That's the data from Miami Beach, available here

Did you decide to use the monthly data instead of the yearly data for some reason?

[www.psmsl.org image 850x340]

No reason. But now that you've pointed it out, it's much easier to see in the yearly data that 1948 was higher than 1980

I'm not sure where he got that last graph. I can't seem to find it on the website.

It was the next closest station, Virginia Key, FL. The Miami Beach data only went to 1980.

Marathon FL is like the best place for finding jobs.  They got like  a PUBLIX.


Hey, don't talk shiat about Publix!
 
2013-06-24 02:50:41 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Galloping Galoshes: BitwiseShift: I, for one, will miss mainland Cuba.

There'll be plenty of Cuba left.  It just won't be 90 miles from Key West anymore.

I believe he was referring to Little Havana, or maybe just Miami in general.

In the US Miami, NYC, New Orleans, and the VA Tidewater area are the most at risk to flooding due to climate change.  What's interesting is that according to this report, China has the most to potentially lose from rising sea levels, yet they're responsible for almost a quarter of all global greenhouse gas emissions, and while the US is starting to trend down, China is spiking with a huge upsurge.


Counter-intuitive, I suppose, if we think people take long-term, large-scale consequences of short-term, small-scale actions into consideration.

On the other hand, let's not blame China for the world's problems. Why is it that China is producing such high GHG emissions? Might it have something to do with the last 30-40 years of "development" there and how it depends on producing goods for consumption in more affluent countries? When it comes to climate, just like when it comes to the economy, national borders are relatively insignificant.
 
2013-06-24 02:51:11 PM  

FrancoFile: chimp_ninja: FrancoFile: /I think you underestimate the nastiness of the stuff involved in manufacturing doped silicon - or even worse, GaAs

Let's go with your "even worse".  I'll go ahead and run my house using GaAs panels, because apparently I'm really rich.  50 microns x 20 m^2 (~5000W peak for pedestrian GaAs) would easily produce ~100 MJ each day, at average US latitudes (~5 kWh/day/m^2, seasonally averaged).  Over the 30 year operating life of my panels, that works out to roughly ~1 TJ.

What's that in terms of coal?  Coal's energy density is ~24 MJ/kg, and you're burning it at no better than 40% efficiency, especially after transmission.  That's about 10 kg of coal every day, or about 114 metric tons after 30 years.

So yeah, there's some nasty stuff used in making 1 liter of solar-grade GaAs.  Or 20 liters of solar-grade Si.  It'll take some energy to make those crystals, too.  But we're comparing it to a current system where a viable alternative is 114 metric tons of coal.

(Worried about arsenic?  Appalachian coal is ~20 ppm arsenic, so after you've burned 114 metric tons, you've made ~2.3 kg of arsenic as a dilute aerosol. mixed in with all sorts of other nastiness.  That's roughly the same amount of arsenic in that 1L chunk of GaAs I'm using, except mine is bound up in 1L of pure solid that gets recycled.)

Dude.  I AGREE WITH YOU.  SOLAR IS BETTER THAN COAL

I'm arguing solar vs fission


Wait.  You're concerned about making 1L of GaAs, but not in processing/disposing the ~0.1-1.0kg of U-235 (which itself came from 10-100 kg of pure natural uranium) that would be used to deliver that TJ?  (Keep in mind that fission plants run at ~20% efficiency, plus it's centralized so you're dealing with transmission, etc.)

Why would ~2.5 kg of arsenic be more of a concern than ~10 kg of uranium?  Keep in mind that once you have it, the GaAs basically just requires encapsulating and wiring.  That U-235 requires an entire power plant, including massive diversions of water, concrete, etc., along with tons of electronics (made from...), etc.

I happen to like fission as a baseload solution, but it's a necessary evil compared to wind/PV.  And yes, everything is much, much better than coal/oil/gas.
 
2013-06-24 02:53:27 PM  

djh0101010: I _do_ understand the manufacturing process.  I also understand that they have control systems and necessary and appropriate precautions in place when handling, you know, arsenic and stuff.  Yeah, dust would be a problem, they probably manage to deal with that effectively.  Regardless, I wonder what the mass of doped silicon is used by the solar power industry vs. the computer chip industry.  I don't know.  Is it 100:1, 1:100, or about even?  I have no idea.  Pretty sure an industry that size has it figured out, though.


It has been years since the silicon PV industry could piggyback on the silicon production of the electronics industry.  Think about it--how much actual silicon is in a laptop computer or tablet, as opposed to printed circuit board, potting compound, etc.?  Now picture a rooftop covered with solar panels, where most of the area you see is solid silicon a third of a millimeter thick.

About arsenic--the amount of arsenic needed to dope silicon is many orders of magnitude less than the amount that goes into making bulk gallium arsenide.  One of the "pros" of silicon as a PV material is that the bulk constituent is literally as common as dirt, and only trace amounts of more exotic elements are needed.
 
2013-06-24 02:54:14 PM  

flondrix: I can't find a link to that google map app that lets you change the sea level, but Miami goes under quickly.


According to this map, 3 feet of sea level rise would submerge 6% of the current population of Miami, 10% of the homes, and 7% of the land area.
 
2013-06-24 02:57:51 PM  
Because humans exist the planets weather must never change!
 
2013-06-24 02:59:35 PM  

djh0101010: Who cares why and or if he's wrong. What are YOU doing about it? Actually doing? Arguing on a website, or something useful?


I'm not chiming in every 2 minutes with a post starting with, "When I was telling you about my solar panels did I happen to mention my solar panels. Well, never mind, let's talk about my solar panels instead.".

So obviously every day I drive my coal-fired Hummer to my job at the plant where we manufacture PCB-laced baby formula.
 
2013-06-24 03:00:25 PM  

Ambitwistor: flondrix: I can't find a link to that google map app that lets you change the sea level, but Miami goes under quickly.

According to this map, 3 feet of sea level rise would submerge 6% of the current population of Miami, 10% of the homes, and 7% of the land area.


And that's just the geographical result of the rise.

That doesn't take the other consequences into consideration.

Thank you for posting the link.
 
2013-06-24 03:01:37 PM  

cman: I am serious, fellow righties.

Embracing the reality of climate change means that we can get what we want, nuclear power.

This is what all of us wanted. It is here for our taking. Grab it.


So you are cool with us storing all that nuclear waste in your back yard until we can figure out what to do with it?

Excellent!! I'll let the folks at the Hanford Nuclear Reservation know where to ship shiat.
 
2013-06-24 03:02:56 PM  

FLMountainMan: FloydA: AdolfOliverPanties: Why is Miami considered the biggest vulnerability?  What will this do to Hawaii, or the Bahama?  Is Miami one of those dumbass cities that is built below sea level, like New Orleans?

I was thinking about that just this morning.  This is Ahalanui Park:
[i105.photobucket.com image 640x480]
A concrete wall separates this pond from the ocean.  The wall is low enough that waves crash above it at high tide; that and rainfall keep the pond replenished.  The water is constantly warmed to about 90 degrees F, and is the most relaxing natural hot pond I have ever visited.

A rise in sea level will drown this place, and that will be a tragic loss.

Indeed.  Where will they ever find another place to build a concrete wall by an ocean?

Is that really the best you can do?


Were you accidentally dropped on your head as a child, or was it deliberate?
 
2013-06-24 03:08:52 PM  

Mrtraveler01: DesertDemonWY: I'm not denying the trend

Oh?

DesertDemonWY: only showing that there is no increase in the rate of rise

Wait, but you said...huh?


Study it out, lib...
 
2013-06-24 03:09:51 PM  

bangman: Because humans exist the planets weather must never change!


media.tumblr.com
 
2013-06-24 03:10:29 PM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: vpb: Denying global warming is like denying that water is wet.

I guess my feeling on this now is: Fine, deny global warming. Whatever. The earth will still spin around the sun and life will go on. However, it's going to be a more miserable, expensive, and bleaker world for humans, so if that's OK with you, party on. If you'd rather not have to worry about things like water rationing, epic storm damage, fires, droughts, food scarcity, floods, and the loss of plant and animal life, you'd might consider a less nihilistic view of life.


Worry about them? Hell man I'm planning on exploiting them for profit. By helping to monopolize water, increasing insurance rates, investing in home repair and disaster relief companies and patenting genes, although the Supreme Court dealt us a temporary setback there (DAM LIBERAL JUDGES!) I plan on making a massive fortune in the 21st century.
 
2013-06-24 03:14:06 PM  

Slaves2Darkness: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: vpb: Denying global warming is like denying that water is wet.

I guess my feeling on this now is: Fine, deny global warming. Whatever. The earth will still spin around the sun and life will go on. However, it's going to be a more miserable, expensive, and bleaker world for humans, so if that's OK with you, party on. If you'd rather not have to worry about things like water rationing, epic storm damage, fires, droughts, food scarcity, floods, and the loss of plant and animal life, you'd might consider a less nihilistic view of life.

Worry about them? Hell man I'm planning on exploiting them for profit. By helping to monopolize water, increasing insurance rates, investing in home repair and disaster relief companies and patenting genes, although the Supreme Court dealt us a temporary setback there (DAM LIBERAL JUDGES!) I plan on making a massive fortune in the 21st century.


I hope you're going to build a very impressive fortress to protect that fortune. When the riots start, I anticipate financial kings to become targets.
 
2013-06-24 03:14:11 PM  

bangman: Because humans exist the planets weather must never change!


Why do deniers always fall back on this strawman?

Please quote anywhere any climate scientists making this statement.
 
2013-06-24 03:14:31 PM  

djh0101010: Momzilla59: Right now a big debate in my neck of the woods is for/against construction of a multi-million dollar terminal to ship coal to China. Seems awfully short sighted for us to do this when we are facing the loss of so much coastal lands world-wide. Anything for a buck. It's the American way.

We are endangering our own long term survival by not developing new technologies for power generation. Poisoning the planet with coal emissions and nuclear waste so we can use 200 year old technology for power is just dumb!

Does solar electric meet your criteria?  If not, why not?


It's a very good start but the acceptance and use of it is taking far too long to take hold. It also needs a relatively large area for the energy generated. We need something that has the comparable output of coal and nuclear energy without the waste. I'm hoping for fission in my lifetime but I realize it's a long shot.

The upshot is I don't know what to use. Solar needs to come down in cost before it will be more widely used. Wind power is great - unless you live near the turbines. Hydro power is also pretty good if you can get past the whole "driving salmon extinct" part. We don't have any technology that is perfect - just some that is better than others.
 
2013-06-24 03:18:33 PM  

Farking Canuck: bangman: Because humans exist the planets weather must never change!

Why do deniers always fall back on this strawman?

Please quote anywhere any climate scientists making this statement.


I suspect that if citations were important to these types,they wouldn't be so ignorant on the science behind climate change.
 
2013-06-24 03:24:00 PM  
we are part of the evolution of the planet and I believe our existence is just temporary. If we are evil to the planet then let mother nature wipe us out. Civilizations come and go and so will we.
 
2013-06-24 03:24:45 PM  
Yikes! Everybody run! It's just like al gore predicted before flying his big jet across the ocean to snag his peace prize. We've already lost Manhatten now we're gonna lose Florida! When will this global cooling/warming/climate change/warming again ever end.
If only we could get a president that would waste some tax money on greeny weenie ideas. If his political friends made a buck at our expense, that would be ok too as long as we fixed the problem. I'm sooo ascared!
 
2013-06-24 03:26:15 PM  

bangman: we are part of the evolution of the planet and I believe our existence is just temporary. If we are evil to the planet then let mother nature wipe us out. Civilizations come and go and so will we.


That's like deciding to drive off the Grand Canyon just because humans are mortal.
 
2013-06-24 03:26:51 PM  

Deathfrogg: It's been estimated that a six foot increase in the ocean level would displace about 3.5 billion people. And it can happen very quickly, in the space of months.


Wow. Incredible. Half the population of the planet live within about 5 miles of the coast and huge amounts of the ice sheet can melt in months?

Wow.
 
2013-06-24 03:27:03 PM  

Momzilla59: So you are cool with us storing all that nuclear waste in your back yard until we can figure out what to do with it?


Or how about we store it in the facility that was custom built for it at Yucca Mountain?  The locals actually lobbied for that site when it meant jobs and an influx of federal money, thought they would probably deny that now.
 
2013-06-24 03:27:43 PM  
Is there any way to speed things up?
 
2013-06-24 03:28:38 PM  

Bontesla: Slaves2Darkness: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: vpb: Denying global warming is like denying that water is wet.

I guess my feeling on this now is: Fine, deny global warming. Whatever. The earth will still spin around the sun and life will go on. However, it's going to be a more miserable, expensive, and bleaker world for humans, so if that's OK with you, party on. If you'd rather not have to worry about things like water rationing, epic storm damage, fires, droughts, food scarcity, floods, and the loss of plant and animal life, you'd might consider a less nihilistic view of life.

Worry about them? Hell man I'm planning on exploiting them for profit. By helping to monopolize water, increasing insurance rates, investing in home repair and disaster relief companies and patenting genes, although the Supreme Court dealt us a temporary setback there (DAM LIBERAL JUDGES!) I plan on making a massive fortune in the 21st century.

I hope you're going to build a very impressive fortress to protect that fortune. When the riots start, I anticipate financial kings to become targets.


I anticipate that hungry people will not have access to the truly rich
 
2013-06-24 03:29:59 PM  

Launch Code: Yikes! Everybody run! It's just like al gore predicted before flying his big jet across the ocean to snag his peace prize. We've already lost Manhatten now we're gonna lose Florida! When will this global cooling/warming/climate change/warming again ever end.
If only we could get a president that would waste some tax money on greeny weenie ideas. If his political friends made a buck at our expense, that would be ok too as long as we fixed the problem. I'm sooo ascared!


Is the Earth still flat for you?
 
2013-06-24 03:30:19 PM  

Bontesla: I hope you're going to build a very impressive fortress to protect that fortune. When the riots start, I anticipate financial kings to become targets.


I anticipate all authority figures - financial, political, AND scientific - to become targets.

/everyone except religious authorities, really
//all according to plan of course... that's why the IPCC is run more like an astrologer's ministry or oracular temple than a research center
 
2013-06-24 03:31:19 PM  

bangman: we are part of the evolution of the planet and I believe our existence is just temporary. If we are evil to the planet then let mother nature wipe us out. Civilizations come and go and so will we.


You mind if we hold off until I'm outta here? I only need another 45 years on the outside ... probably less.

/Although I will take a bit of schadenfreude watching the red states burn over the next few decades. Looks like they are going to be the first to reap the rewards of their "do nothing" campaigns.
 
2013-06-24 03:31:50 PM  

dready zim: Bontesla: Slaves2Darkness: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: vpb: Denying global warming is like denying that water is wet.

I guess my feeling on this now is: Fine, deny global warming. Whatever. The earth will still spin around the sun and life will go on. However, it's going to be a more miserable, expensive, and bleaker world for humans, so if that's OK with you, party on. If you'd rather not have to worry about things like water rationing, epic storm damage, fires, droughts, food scarcity, floods, and the loss of plant and animal life, you'd might consider a less nihilistic view of life.

Worry about them? Hell man I'm planning on exploiting them for profit. By helping to monopolize water, increasing insurance rates, investing in home repair and disaster relief companies and patenting genes, although the Supreme Court dealt us a temporary setback there (DAM LIBERAL JUDGES!) I plan on making a massive fortune in the 21st century.

I hope you're going to build a very impressive fortress to protect that fortune. When the riots start, I anticipate financial kings to become targets.

I anticipate that hungry people will not have access to the truly rich


Well,it looks like we're going to see.
 
2013-06-24 03:32:55 PM  

Momzilla59: Wind power is great - unless you live near the turbines.


Has anyone shown, one way or the other, if extracting a an amount of wind energy sufficiency to meet an appreciable fraction of world electricity use would change the weather?
 
2013-06-24 03:34:15 PM  

Ambitwistor: flondrix: I can't find a link to that google map app that lets you change the sea level, but Miami goes under quickly.

According to this map, 3 feet of sea level rise would submerge 6% of the current population of Miami, 10% of the homes, and 7% of the land area.


You wouldn't want to live on the property that's only 6" above that elevation, though. Remember sea level elevation doesn't include wave action.

For that matter, land for a long way inland would turn into marsh with a 3' sea level rise. Trying to get water to drain after a storm would be nearly impossible; for example, Elizabeth City, NC already partially floods just from a moderate rain storm. The city is so close to the water elevation in the sound that rainfall just can't drain away quickly. Now raise the elevation 1 or 2 or 3 feet. Now multiply those kinds of problems by every coastal city in the Southeast and East Coasts.

/civil engineer
//looking forward to being employed for a long, long time
 
2013-06-24 03:38:33 PM  
Seriously. Anybody on FARK here really thinks we can change the climate on a massive scale fast enough to make a difference and have the rest of the world on the same page???? Common people get real. So many of you guys think your so important that you think you can make a difference. This all makes me laugh!!!! The fear mongering only happens with the right wingers I guess.
 
2013-06-24 03:41:48 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: How is this possible?  The unbiased data shows global warming stopped 16 years ago.  If anything the overall temperature is going down.  During the ice ages the sea levels dropped hundreds of feet.


You're wrong. The earth has always looked exactly like it does right now. And we MUST keep it that way! At any cost!
 
2013-06-24 03:41:50 PM  
Cyno01:

You know what else is an observable property? The solid phase of water being LESS dense than the liquid. If all the ice melted the sea level would probably go down a little bit. This whole rising sea level chicken little attitude doesnt make any sense to anyone with half a brain. Go get a glass, put some ice in it, fill it to the top with water , and wait for the ice to melt. Did the glass overflow?

Damn scientists just looking for grant money...


Well, what if you filled the glass to the top, then place a strainer with a few ice cubes above the glass. Wait til they melt (hint: they represent the ice on LAND across the globe). Then see if the glass overflows. Survey says? Yep.
 
2013-06-24 03:44:00 PM  

bangman: Seriously. Anybody on FARK here really thinks we can change the climate on a massive scale fast enough to make a difference and have the rest of the world on the same page???? Common people get real. So many of you guys think your so important that you think you can make a difference. This all makes me laugh!!!! The fear mongering only happens with the right wingers I guess.


If we can't do everything instantly, we might as well do nothing at all.
 
2013-06-24 03:44:00 PM  

dready zim: I hope you're going to build a very impressive fortress to protect that fortune. When the riots start, I anticipate financial kings to become targets.

I anticipate that hungry people will not have access to the truly rich


When things get to that point, will the truly rich be that rich anymore?  If most of your wealth is in the form of intellectual property, bonds, mutual funds, derivatives, and bits in a database somewhere, but the power is out in NYC and the stock exchange hasn't traded for a couple weeks, what do you really own besides your mansion and the stuff in it?  Do you  have a way of paying your henchmen enough to remain loyal to you--a form of payment they can't just take away from you themselves if they begin to get antsy about their own future prospects?  A billion dollars in cash just means you will be one of the last people to run out of toilet paper; an equivalent amount of gold bullion is a very tempting and immobile target.

The one percent are only rich so long as the economy includes unwashed masses for them to be richer than.
 
2013-06-24 03:44:38 PM  

bangman: So many of you guys think your so important that you think you can make a difference. This all makes me laugh!!!! The fear mongering only happens with the right wingers I guess.


Nice. Firm support of the denier mantra: "Do nothing!!"

Your corporate masters must love you.

/note the correct use of the word 'your'
 
2013-06-24 03:44:52 PM  

Momzilla59: Does solar electric meet your criteria? If not, why not?

It's a very good start but the acceptance and use of it is taking far too long to take hold. It also needs a relatively large area for the energy generated. We need something that has the comparable output of coal and nuclear energy without the waste. I'm hoping for fission in my lifetime but I realize it's a long shot.


A 5 year payback isn't low enough price yet?  What is?  3?  1?

Millions of acres of sunlight falling onto the ground.  At 100 watts per square foot, and modern PV cells can capture 17% of that and turn it into electricity.  Pretty good for something with no moving parts.
 
2013-06-24 03:47:57 PM  

flondrix: When things get to that point, will the truly rich be that rich anymore? If most of your wealth is in the form of intellectual property, bonds, mutual funds, derivatives, and bits in a database somewhere, but the power is out in NYC and the stock exchange hasn't traded for a couple weeks, what do you really own besides your mansion and the stuff in it? Do you have a way of paying your henchmen enough to remain loyal to you--a form of payment they can't just take away from you themselves if they begin to get antsy about their own future prospects? A billion dollars in cash just means you will be one of the last people to run out of toilet paper; an equivalent amount of gold bullion is a very tempting and immobile target.

The one percent are only rich so long as the economy includes unwashed masses for them to be richer than.


Your scenario is probable if things ever reach that extreme. In the much shorter term the impact will more likely be extreme food prices, etc. The rich will have to employ a lot more security but they can afford it.
 
2013-06-24 03:48:29 PM  

FLMountainMan: gameshowhost: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: vpb: Denying global warming is like denying that water is wet.

I guess my feeling on this now is: Fine, deny global warming. Whatever. The earth will still spin around the sun and life will go on. However, it's going to be a more miserable, expensive, and bleaker world for humans, so if that's OK with you, party on. If you'd rather not have to worry about things like water rationing, epic storm damage, fires, droughts, food scarcity, floods, and the loss of plant and animal life, you'd might consider a less nihilistic view of life.

It's got to be more than that. The deniers will have to start paying* for their egregious stupidity, one way or another, or else there's no incentive for them to cease being egregiously stupid, both now and in the future.

*paying = paying a whole bunch more than the average share. whole. bunch. more.

So they will have to pay money for not espousing views that you like?  Sounds healthy.

How about we just pay based on consumption?  Wouldn't that be a little more rational?


How about they pay for the damage they *already* caused to society (actually to the entire planet) because of their scientific illiteracy and/or deliberate attempts to put their greedy little paws ahead of the lives of hundreds of millions of human beings, for the past decade+?

Consumption taxes can only address the now and the future.

Eponymous: gameshowhost: It's got to be more than that. The deniers will have to start paying* for their egregious stupidity, one way or another, or else there's no incentive for them to cease being egregiously stupid, both now and in the future.

*paying = paying a whole bunch more than the average share. whole. bunch. more.

I hate to bring this up because it looks like you're comfortable in your tiny little logic box....but you don't need to work about deniers....you need to worry about China and India.   The US represents only 4% of the population of those 2 countries...and having to travel to both of them, I can readily attest that the best air quality in China or India is much worse than the very worst fire/smog day in LA.   From an economic standpoint, why should the US seriously disadvantage ourselves by unilaterally taking on the cost of "not quite ready yet" green energy when China, Russia, and India aren't doing jack shiat to curb any of their emissions?  Stand back and take a look at the leaps in technology in 50 years...computers, internet, space travel, wireless communications.  Do you honestly think that we can't come up with a solution to the problem over the next 100 years as technology continues to advance along Moores Law?

Finally, the oceans are going to rise 3 feet in 50 years?  Really, is that coming from the same models that have been predicting temps would be going up for the last decade?  You can believe in climate change but still believe that their models are farked up and their predictions are bullshiat.  In my business, if I created forecasting models that were consistently wrong for the last 15 years, I'd be fired.  But in the climate world, you just get more grant money to do it right.   Once they start, getting their models tuned in to start predicting temperature changes that actually come to pass, I will start giving their forecasts on ocean levels some credence....until then, garbage in, garbage out.


So... no punitive measures for past damages, pointing to others and crying 'waaah why should we take the moral high ground and be the first to develop alternatives?' after we've been the nation that has profited the most from the industrial revolution, falsely claiming that we'd unilaterally bear all of the costs of taking the lead, an oddly-conflicting sentiment with 'we'll find something - no worries' and a paragraph of DYUUUURP.  Got it.

/gee i wonder.. if we'd taken alternative energy production by the ropes and had invested heavily, like, 35 yrs ago...
//*climbs white house roof, jumps up and down on solar panels* LOLOL CHANGE IS GHEY!!1
 
2013-06-24 03:48:34 PM  

vudukungfu: Turn it into a landfill. The entire state.


sourbrains.org

/and i live here...
 
2013-06-24 03:49:12 PM  

Cyno01: You know what else is an observable property? The solid phase of water being LESS dense than the liquid. If all the ice melted the sea level would probably go down a little bit. This whole rising sea level chicken little attitude doesnt make any sense to anyone with half a brain. Go get a glass, put some ice in it, fill it to the top with water , and wait for the ice to melt. Did the glass overflow?


The level will neither rise NOR fall.  The floating ice displaces its mass in liquid water; as does the liquid water it becomes.  (Repeating the experiment with freshwater ice floating in sea water may produce a very slight drop in the level.)  Non-floating ice on land, on the other hand, is quite capable of raising sea level.
 
2013-06-24 03:51:00 PM  
we'll have our very own Venice
 
2013-06-24 03:52:21 PM  

bangman: Seriously. Anybody on FARK here really thinks we can change the climate on a massive scale fast enough to make a difference and have the rest of the world on the same page???? Common people get real. So many of you guys think your so important that you think you can make a difference. This all makes me laugh!!!! The fear mongering only happens with the right wingers I guess.


Common people get real what?
 
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