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(Washington Post)   Senator from Hawaii points out a wee tiny flaw in the current immigration bill: by determining immigration eligibility by adding up points for education and job experience, we're embracing the insitutional discrimination women face in other countries   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 49
    More: Interesting, Hawaii, immigration bill, Hirono, female senators, discrimination, senator  
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866 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Jun 2013 at 12:00 PM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-24 11:35:51 AM
This is An incredibly salient point.

It's hard to explain just how overwhelmingly disadvantaged women in developing countries are, unless you have seen it first hand. In many if not most developing countries, girls are less likely to be educated (if you have to pay school fees, and you don't have money for all your kids, girls are the first ones to be pulled), less likely to have employment history (if you start pooping out one kid per year at 17, you're not too likely to have much a of a resume, are you), and less likely to ever finish ahead of any men under this system.

The only way many women would make it in would be as dependents, and I can think of few ideas LESS American than 'all men are created equal, except when they got shafted by the unequal system in their home country, then fark you...we don't want your kind here at all'. Not exactly 'give me your tired, your poor, your huddle masses yearning to breathe free', now, is it.
 
2013-06-24 11:45:23 AM

whistleridge: This is An incredibly salient point.

It's hard to explain just how overwhelmingly disadvantaged women in developing countries are, unless you have seen it first hand. In many if not most developing countries, girls are less likely to be educated (if you have to pay school fees, and you don't have money for all your kids, girls are the first ones to be pulled), less likely to have employment history (if you start pooping out one kid per year at 17, you're not too likely to have much a of a resume, are you), and less likely to ever finish ahead of any men under this system.

The only way many women would make it in would be as dependents, and I can think of few ideas LESS American than 'all men are created equal, except when they got shafted by the unequal system in their home country, then fark you...we don't want your kind here at all'. Not exactly 'give me your tired, your poor, your huddle masses yearning to breathe free', now, is it.


Yeah I was pretty impressed, and have to admit I hadn't thought of it either.  It might help that the Senator's own personal history highlights this very problem so she's likely more aware of it than most.   But not sure what criteria you can replace it with.
 
2013-06-24 12:05:35 PM
it "disadvantages women."

*cringe*
 
2013-06-24 12:05:57 PM
Men. We're obligated to address discrimination within our own country, not other countries. It makes choose candidates for immigration based on education and job experience because these people are most likely to contribute to our society. If discriminatory practices by other nations unfairly make certain foreign citizens ineligible for immigration to the US, the fault lies with their home countries, not the US immigration policy.
 
2013-06-24 12:06:32 PM
*"makes sense to choose"
 
2013-06-24 12:08:47 PM
we're also declaring we have neither need nor desire to let in any manuel laborers.
if we don't have a realistic guest worker program, we're gonna have undocs coming in to pick the crops.
 
2013-06-24 12:09:15 PM
Who's to say those other country don't have it right?
 
2013-06-24 12:11:49 PM
Wow, that's a very smart point. how did she get elected to congress?
 
2013-06-24 12:14:39 PM
Just make being a parent job experience.  Or anyone with acidface gets in free.
 
2013-06-24 12:14:53 PM
The senator is correct, but so is JesusJuice. It doesn't just affect women, but anyone whose gender/religious/ethnic/etc. group is treated poorly and unable to avail themselves of education, whether due to social or economic causes.

Also, dionysusaur has a pretty good point, I just don't think most of the country or the people who run it really care. They like disposable workers.
 
2013-06-24 12:17:00 PM
That's spot on. So of course, we have to ignore it.

Now, do we need 60,000 troops on the border or 70,000. How many drones to do we need. Can we just bomb people crossing the border from the drones, or should we have border agents to shoot them?
 
2013-06-24 12:23:33 PM

JesusJuice: Men. We're obligated to address discrimination within our own country, not other countries. It makes choose candidates for immigration based on education and job experience because these people are most likely to contribute to our society. If discriminatory practices by other nations unfairly make certain foreign citizens ineligible for immigration to the US, the fault lies with their home countries, not the US immigration policy.


Horseshiat.

We're not talking about the H-1B jobs where education and experience matters, we're talking about a guest worker program and/or legal admission for folks who will only be working the worst sorts of jobs. You don't care how much work or education your dishwasher has, just that he/she shows up on time, gets the job done, isn't stoned, and doesn't just disappear one day. And work/education credits won't make the slightest bit of difference at that level.

Yes, we want to watch out for our own first, and no, we're not responsible for what happens in other countries, but that doesn't mean we have to be callous or irresponsible either. As the Senator so intelligently pointed out.
 
2013-06-24 12:23:56 PM
She makes a good point. I hadn't thought of that, and it should be fixed. Just out of curiosity is this the person who replaced Inouye?
 
2013-06-24 12:24:45 PM

JesusJuice: Men. We're obligated to address discrimination within our own country, not other countries. It makes choose candidates for immigration based on education and job experience because these people are most likely to contribute to our society. If discriminatory practices by other nations unfairly make certain foreign citizens ineligible for immigration to the US, the fault lies with their home countries, not the US immigration policy.


Bears
Bears
Bears
 
2013-06-24 12:24:57 PM
Should women in other countries just be allowed to come in with their husband? That way they can raise kids and make sammiches while he works!
 
2013-06-24 12:27:43 PM
We can add points for hotness.
 
2013-06-24 12:33:16 PM
Who cares? The bill will never make it out of the House and if it does, it will be in such unrecognizable form as to ensure Obama's veto. The whole purpose of the bill is for the repubs to be able to say "We tried to pass immigration reform, we rilly rilly tried, but it was just too hard and those evil Democrats wouldn't let us put in the totally reasonable things we wanted to add to make sure that no Hispanics will actually be able to become citizens. So now will you vote for us? Please, please, please? You won't? You ungrateful bastards!"
 
2013-06-24 12:34:17 PM

Facetious_Speciest: The senator is correct, but so is JesusJuice. It doesn't just affect women, but anyone whose gender/religious/ethnic/etc. group is treated poorly and unable to avail themselves of education, whether due to social or economic causes.

Also, dionysusaur has a pretty good point, I just don't think most of the country or the people who run it really care. They like disposable workers.


You're right.  So, what if some man was the target of the same "oppression" in country X?  Oh right, we don't care because he was a man.  That's what stuff like this comes across as.  We only care about the suffering of women.  Case in point is that greater than 70% of America's homeless are men.  Very few people give a shiat about that.  They only care about number of CEOs and other executives.  Additionally,  I didn't realize it was now our job to make sure other countries have socioeconomic "fairness" for everyone.
 
2013-06-24 12:35:45 PM

youmightberight: We can add points for hotness.


Or cup size. Points off for implants.
 
2013-06-24 12:36:35 PM

dionysusaur: we're also declaring we have neither need nor desire to let in any manuel laborers.


If this is a pun, well done.
 
2013-06-24 12:38:39 PM

clambam: Who cares? The bill will never make it out of the House and if it does, it will be in such unrecognizable form as to ensure Obama's veto. The whole purpose of the bill is for the repubs to be able to say "We tried to pass immigration reform, we rilly rilly tried, but it was just too hard and those evil Democrats wouldn't let us put in the totally reasonable things we wanted to add to make sure that no Hispanics will actually be able to become citizens. So now will you vote for us? Please, please, please? You won't? You ungrateful bastards!"


Valid point.
 
2013-06-24 12:38:54 PM
We need a hot or not for female immigration.
 
2013-06-24 12:39:57 PM

Wellon Dowd: youmightberight: We can add points for hotness.

Or cup size. Points off for implants.


Giving points for cup size might give unintended consequences.

img.fark.net
 
2013-06-24 12:45:22 PM
No no no... the more experience, the LESS likely you are to be accepted. This way only hot foreign chicks are allowed to enter. Everyone else scram.
 
2013-06-24 12:47:30 PM
Very valid point by the Senator, but one I don't think is worth making for the sake of trying to get the bill through. These issues are better addressed by USAID, Peace Corps, PEPFAR, and the various other development agencies we have.
 
2013-06-24 12:48:23 PM

nmrsnr: She makes a good point. I hadn't thought of that, and it should be fixed. Just out of curiosity is this the person who replaced Inouye?


Nope, she replaced Sen. Akaka. Sen. Schatz got appointed when Inouye died.
 
2013-06-24 12:48:45 PM
we're embracing the insitutional discrimination women face in other countries

That should make it more attractive to Republicans.
 
2013-06-24 12:56:50 PM
This is actually a part of the Republicans' master plan. Phase 1 involves enticing as many of those sweet, sweet Latin boys in the country as possible. Phase 2 involves preventing their wives and girlfriends from getting in. This prevents a Mexican baby-boom of future Democratic voters and cuts down on the competition for lovin'.
 
2013-06-24 12:59:38 PM

dionysusaur: we're also declaring we have neither need nor desire to let in any manuel laborers.



"Manuel Labors" is the name of my landscaping and roofing business.
 
2013-06-24 01:00:59 PM

Uranus Is Huge!: This is actually a part of the Republicans' master plan. Phase 1 involves enticing as many of those sweet, sweet Latin boys in the country as possible.


They will be known as Log Cabana Republicans.
 
2013-06-24 01:18:14 PM
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free;
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless,
Tempest-tossed to me


But keep your fat chicks and feminazis.
 
2013-06-24 01:32:39 PM

dionysusaur: we're also declaring we have neither need nor desire to let in any manuel laborers.
if we don't have a realistic guest worker program, we're gonna have undocs coming in to pick the crops.


That is one racist typo, heh. (I'm not trying to imply that you're racist)
 
2013-06-24 02:03:36 PM

jst3p: Wellon Dowd: youmightberight: We can add points for hotness.

Or cup size. Points off for implants.

Giving points for cup size might give unintended consequences.

[img.fark.net image 454x580]


Agreed I was thinking boobs at first too but then I had a mental flash of some LARGE woman with giant hooters smothering an ICE agent while trying to get into the country and was like, ew.

So I suggested hotness instead. I mean lets face it even chicks with small boobs can be hot.
 
2013-06-24 02:08:05 PM

nmrsnr: She makes a good point. I hadn't thought of that, and it should be fixed. Just out of curiosity is this the person who replaced Inouye?


No, she replaced Akaka.  Inouye was replaced (temporarily) with our (now-former) Lt Governor, Brian Schatz .  He's going to face a challenge come special election from one of our House of Reps sendups, Hanabusa.
 
2013-06-24 02:39:17 PM

Magorn: whistleridge: This is An incredibly salient point.

It's hard to explain just how overwhelmingly disadvantaged women in developing countries are, unless you have seen it first hand. In many if not most developing countries, girls are less likely to be educated (if you have to pay school fees, and you don't have money for all your kids, girls are the first ones to be pulled), less likely to have employment history (if you start pooping out one kid per year at 17, you're not too likely to have much a of a resume, are you), and less likely to ever finish ahead of any men under this system.

The only way many women would make it in would be as dependents, and I can think of few ideas LESS American than 'all men are created equal, except when they got shafted by the unequal system in their home country, then fark you...we don't want your kind here at all'. Not exactly 'give me your tired, your poor, your huddle masses yearning to breathe free', now, is it.

Yeah I was pretty impressed, and have to admit I hadn't thought of it either.  It might help that the Senator's own personal history highlights this very problem so she's likely more aware of it than most.   But not sure what criteria you can replace it with.


An unbiased test of upper-body strength.
 
2013-06-24 02:50:49 PM
It's a tough choice. Do we use our limited resources to fix humanitarian issues and give poor people a better life, or to help our own country and do what's best for us, even if that means the people we let in are a little less needy than they could be?
 
2013-06-24 04:00:20 PM
We need those provisions in the bill. If we just let uneducated, jobless women walk into the country freely, then why would any of them ever agree to be my mail order bride?
 
2013-06-24 04:55:38 PM
I seriously never thought of this issue. I was in favor of education and job experience, but this hit me like brick. Not sure how to go from here.
 
2013-06-24 06:04:51 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free;
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless,
Tempest-tossed to me

But keep your fat chicks and feminazis.


That poem was probably the best joke France ever played on America.
 
2013-06-24 06:59:32 PM

Ishidan: That poem was probably the best joke France ever played on America.


France gave us the statue, Emma Lazarus, a Jewish girl whose family's New York City roots went back to the revolution, gave us the poem.


In regards to TFA: Sen. Hirono is dead on here, but I suspect that she'll find that for some of her fellow Senators, that's a feature rather than a bug. And by that, I mean to say that Republicans hate women.
 
2013-06-24 10:04:11 PM

cptjeff: Ishidan: That poem was probably the best joke France ever played on America.

France gave us the statue, Emma Lazarus, a Jewish girl whose family's New York City roots went back to the revolution, gave us the poem.


In regards to TFA: Sen. Hirono is dead on here, but I suspect that she'll find that for some of her fellow Senators, that's a feature rather than a bug. And by that, I mean to say that Republicans hate women.


It's not an issue of hating women.  It's an issue of immigration being for the benefit of the host country.  The United States is better off if it's accepting doctors before burger flippers.  Immigration policy is not the place to address another country's humanitarian policies.
 
2013-06-24 10:18:22 PM

The Only Jeff: cptjeff: Ishidan: That poem was probably the best joke France ever played on America.

France gave us the statue, Emma Lazarus, a Jewish girl whose family's New York City roots went back to the revolution, gave us the poem.


In regards to TFA: Sen. Hirono is dead on here, but I suspect that she'll find that for some of her fellow Senators, that's a feature rather than a bug. And by that, I mean to say that Republicans hate women.

It's not an issue of hating women.  It's an issue of immigration being for the benefit of the host country.  The United States is better off if it's accepting doctors before burger flippers.  Immigration policy is not the place to address another country's humanitarian policies.


So you're perfectly fine with knowingly discriminating against oppressed people.

Under what conditions did your ancestors come here, I wonder?
 
2013-06-24 10:59:01 PM
Well, it's a matter of practicality trumping ideology.  Educated and skilled immigrants are just more valuable to the nation than unskilled and uneducated ones.

This... well, it's hard to really argue that some dickish attempt to socially engineer other sovereign states by being passive-aggressive with our immigration policy in a way that in no way encourages them to reform trumps the basic welfare of our own nation.  Standing on principle in a way that benefits no one doesn't really serve either us or the rest of the world.

//If someone's being repressed, that's what refugee status is for, not immigration status.  Different thing.
 
2013-06-25 01:30:14 AM

voran: nmrsnr: She makes a good point. I hadn't thought of that, and it should be fixed. Just out of curiosity is this the person who replaced Inouye?

No, she replaced Akaka.  Inouye was replaced (temporarily) with our (now-former) Lt Governor, Brian Schatz .  He's going to face a challenge come special election from one of our House of Reps sendups, Hanabusa.


Hanabusa is far, far more experienced, and if I recall, Inouye had asked to have her replace him, but Hawaii's governor (correctly) realized that whoever he appointed would only be in for a year or so before the next election, and if he appointed Hanabusa, there would immediately be a special election to replace her - which Republicans might win.  By appointing Schatz and leaving Hanabusa in her current position, he gave his party a year to plan line up good candidates to replace Hanabusa in the House.
 
2013-06-25 01:50:07 AM
Sounds like you've adopted the Canadian system:  Ask not what our country can do for you, but what can you you do for our country?

http://www.workpermit.com/canada/points_calculator.htm  (This is a for profit immigration site and therefore caveat emptor.)

The thing about this system is that it devalues the contribution of low wage and low education workers who are needed in very large numbers. The US, for example, only hands out a small number (last time I checked, 65,000 green cards) in low wage job categories that employ millions (of illegals). If it weren't for Republicans and others of that ilk (cough, Libertarians, Democrats, cough, cough) trying to keep their taxes down you could let these people in legally and they wouldn't have to be criminals. Europe manages to do this by its system of "guest workers" who can work illegally but are sent home as soon as they become unemployed. Well, actually ... same old, same old.

In Canada, older immigrants (the ones who came from white European countries between WWII and the economic slump after 1973) were better educated and earned more than native born Canadians. Now they simply don't come in the numbers they used to (except for Eastern Europeans, perhaps) and have been replaced by industrious but less integrated Chinese and Indian immigrants. Hence Chinese shopping malls in Toronto and Vancouver, and monster homes built post-lease by the wealthy of Hong Kong for their children.

As a result the Canadian Government can save lots of money on education and training (for Canadians) while courting Foreign Students (who pay big money on top of what Canadians pay for their heavily subsidized colleges and universities) and sponging off of poor countries who train doctors, engineers, etc. at great expense only to have them bug-out to Canada, the US, Australia, the UK, Europe, etc. It's a lose-lose situation except for big tax payers.

This is the two-faced con game behind immigration policies and the immigration political con game that gets the rubes and dupes worked up over immigrants while exploiting them mercilessly.
 
2013-06-25 08:44:05 AM

cptjeff: The Only Jeff: cptjeff: Ishidan: That poem was probably the best joke France ever played on America.

France gave us the statue, Emma Lazarus, a Jewish girl whose family's New York City roots went back to the revolution, gave us the poem.


In regards to TFA: Sen. Hirono is dead on here, but I suspect that she'll find that for some of her fellow Senators, that's a feature rather than a bug. And by that, I mean to say that Republicans hate women.

It's not an issue of hating women.  It's an issue of immigration being for the benefit of the host country.  The United States is better off if it's accepting doctors before burger flippers.  Immigration policy is not the place to address another country's humanitarian policies.

So you're perfectly fine with knowingly discriminating against oppressed people.

Under what conditions did your ancestors come here, I wonder?


We're not the ones doing the oppressing.  We're just doing evaluating.  I know that people in Africa are starving.  I know we could save some if not all of them.  But we choose not to.  But we're not the ones CAUSING them to starve.  Indifference is not the same as malice.

And 1600's, New England types.
 
2013-06-25 09:19:26 AM

brantgoose: Sounds like you've adopted the Canadian system:  Ask not what our country can do for you, but what can you you do for our country?

http://www.workpermit.com/canada/points_calculator.htm  (This is a for profit immigration site and therefore caveat emptor.)

The thing about this system is that it devalues the contribution of low wage and low education workers who are needed in very large numbers. The US, for example, only hands out a small number (last time I checked, 65,000 green cards) in low wage job categories that employ millions (of illegals). If it weren't for Republicans and others of that ilk (cough, Libertarians, Democrats, cough, cough) trying to keep their taxes down you could let these people in legally and they wouldn't have to be criminals. Europe manages to do this by its system of "guest workers" who can work illegally but are sent home as soon as they become unemployed. Well, actually ... same old, same old.

In Canada, older immigrants (the ones who came from white European countries between WWII and the economic slump after 1973) were better educated and earned more than native born Canadians. Now they simply don't come in the numbers they used to (except for Eastern Europeans, perhaps) and have been replaced by industrious but less integrated Chinese and Indian immigrants. Hence Chinese shopping malls in Toronto and Vancouver, and monster homes built post-lease by the wealthy of Hong Kong for their children.

As a result the Canadian Government can save lots of money on education and training (for Canadians) while courting Foreign Students (who pay big money on top of what Canadians pay for their heavily subsidized colleges and universities) and sponging off of poor countries who train doctors, engineers, etc. at great expense only to have them bug-out to Canada, the US, Australia, the UK, Europe, etc. It's a lose-lose situation except for big tax payers.

This is the two-faced con game behind immigration policies and the immigration political co ...


So, in all seriousness, who DO you get to pick your crops for you?  We're told in this country that without migrant farm workers, most illegal, coming from Mexico our food would be prohibitively expensive, and I think that's largely true, but Canada doesn't have a border with a thrid world country (yeah I set myself up for that one), so where DO they get thier cheap farm labor from?
 
2013-06-25 11:12:35 AM

Magorn: So, in all seriousness, who DO you get to pick your crops for you?  We're told in this country that without migrant farm workers, most illegal, coming from Mexico our food would be prohibitively expensive, and I think that's largely true, but Canada doesn't have a border with a thrid world country (yeah I set myself up for that one), so where DO they get thier cheap farm labor from?


Trained seals.

/The untrainable ones they beat to death with clubs.
//Once they gain sentience and opposable thumbs, Canada's fate is... er, sealed.
 
2013-06-25 01:44:28 PM
Very true.

Do we want this place to turn into a big old sausage fest?  I say we give extra points to women.
 
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