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(Tech Dirt)   NSA releasing more information that Snowden ever did   (techdirt.com) divider line 53
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1636 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Jun 2013 at 9:44 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-24 09:45:51 AM
I really hope there isn't a shortage of Snowden threads today.
 
2013-06-24 09:48:39 AM
: if Snowden is somehow a traitor and putting lives at risk... why isn't the other information we're actually learning about the programs equally as problematic? The real answer seems to be that the information Snowden leaked does not harm us at all, but has simply revealed that the government has kept classified information from the American public that never should have been classified at all. The fact that only now are they looking to declassify it (and then doing so) shows pretty clearly that the information was improperly classified in the first place.

oh dear
i may end up missing out on my 15min of Hate (orwell)
 
2013-06-24 09:50:44 AM
Fark does realize that there are other, more important things happening in the world, right? This NSA thing isn't even news to those of us who actually have been paying attention for the last decade
 
2013-06-24 09:51:02 AM
I think all those intel guys going on TV and radio blubbering about how much "irreparable" damage Snowden's leak did ought to be the first place we look to cut expenses the next time we decide balancing the budget is a big deal again.
 
2013-06-24 09:51:26 AM
If this guy ever gets trapped indoors somewhere due to frozen, crystalized precipitation, I've got the perfect headline.
 
2013-06-24 09:52:28 AM

Lost Thought 00: Fark does realize that there are other, more important things happening in the world, right? This NSA thing isn't even news to those of us who actually have been paying attention for the last decade


Now, now. That's not true. Snowden's leak actually gave the program a name and that automatically makes it scary enough for people to suddenly start giving a shiat.
 
2013-06-24 09:57:25 AM

Lost Thought 00: Fark does realize that there are other, more important things happening in the world, right? This NSA thing isn't even news to those of us who actually have been paying attention for the last decade


I agree... the killing of Americans without a due process, the death squads at the hands of the president from JSOC, the killing of enemies / civilians by drones without oversight... etc.

All these things have ONE THING in common.

LACK OF OVERSIGHT

We need NEW FISA COURTS and judges that are not rubber stamp troglodytes.

The PEOPLE need to have TRUSTED JUDGES in place to oversee these sensitive and controversial programs.
 
2013-06-24 10:00:14 AM
There is no winning with you wankers is there?
 
2013-06-24 10:07:03 AM

LasersHurt: There is no winning with you wankers is there?


Is there something about this we should be happy about?
 
2013-06-24 10:11:05 AM

GoldSpider: LasersHurt: There is no winning with you wankers is there?

Is there something about this we should be happy about?


Yeah, apologists.  But they saved us from the scary terrorists!!! maybe.  possibly.  But they can't tell us about it!
 
2013-06-24 10:12:20 AM

NostroZ: The PEOPLE need to have TRUSTED JUDGES in place to oversee these sensitive and controversial programs.


If only you could convince the people's elected representatives to do their jobs overseeing sensitive programs, or better yet, not authorize them in the first place.
 
2013-06-24 10:14:35 AM

GoldSpider: LasersHurt: There is no winning with you wankers is there?

Is there something about this we should be happy about?


No, but sitting around idly jerking off til we're dry about every single facet and how all of it is bad, and responding to it is also bad, and all of the things we're assuming and reading in are bad, is farking stupid.

We love to just fixate and stroke off about how righteous we are and shiat on our target of the day until it's just beaten into the dirt. The sticky wicket is that this is an important thing, but if everyone doesn't shut the fark up and calm down a little it's going to keep being hard to separate the signal from the noise. I know, it's Fark.com and all.
 
2013-06-24 10:16:32 AM

NostroZ: I agree... the killing of Americans without a due process, the death squads at the hands of the president from JSOC, the killing of enemies / civilians by drones without oversight... etc.


1) there is oversight. skimpy perhaps, after the fact but yeah someone tut-tuts about it.

2) your link has this:  " Anwar al-Awlaki, on JSoc's "kill list" since 2010, was killed by CIA-controlled drone attack in September 2011; " i'm ok with that. or would you rather he be dragged to gitmo to languish indefinitely?
 
2013-06-24 10:20:21 AM

LasersHurt: GoldSpider: LasersHurt: There is no winning with you wankers is there?

Is there something about this we should be happy about?

No, but sitting around idly jerking off til we're dry about every single facet and how all of it is bad, and responding to it is also bad, and all of the things we're assuming and reading in are bad, is farking stupid.

We love to just fixate and stroke off about how righteous we are and shiat on our target of the day until it's just beaten into the dirt. The sticky wicket is that this is an important thing, but if everyone doesn't shut the fark up and calm down a little it's going to keep being hard to separate the signal from the noise. I know, it's Fark.com and all.


OK then.
 
2013-06-24 10:21:42 AM

GoldSpider: OK then.


By all means, don't let me stop you from publicly beating a dead horse as much as you'd like.
 
2013-06-24 10:22:35 AM

Curious: NostroZ: I agree... the killing of Americans without a due process, the death squads at the hands of the president from JSOC, the killing of enemies / civilians by drones without oversight... etc.

1) there is oversight. skimpy perhaps, after the fact but yeah someone tut-tuts about it.

2) your link has this:  " Anwar al-Awlaki, on JSoc's "kill list" since 2010, was killed by CIA-controlled drone attack in September 2011; " i'm ok with that. or would you rather he be dragged to gitmo to languish indefinitely?


Anwar al-Awlaki was a US CITIZEN and by the CONSTITUTION is afforded a trial by jury... for treason, at least.

This never happened.  A US citizen was killed by a drone in Yemen without due process, for allegedly spreading terror ONLINE.

Furthermore and more grotesquely, the CIA then, two weeks later, killed his SON also a US CITIZEN, without TRIAL simply for the SINS OF HIS FATHER.

Let me reiterate... a US CITIZEN was KILLED WITHOUT TRIAL for allegedly spreading something the gov't considers 'terror propaganda online'.  Then to add insult to injury to our constitution and fundamdental concept of justice, we killed his US citizen son without trial or due process FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN HIM BEING THE SON of someone we don't like (also a US citizen).

Gitmo?
You think they should have been put there?

How about before a judge as our constitution states in the SIXTH AMENDMENT.  A citizen has a RIGHT to a TRIAL by JURY.
Not Hellfire missiles from the sky and then two weeks later on his children!
 
2013-06-24 10:23:44 AM

LasersHurt: There is no winning with you wankers is there?


Hell no. I shoot my load and I'm horny ten minutes later
 
2013-06-24 10:25:03 AM

NostroZ: How about before a judge as our constitution states in the SIXTH AMENDMENT.  A citizen has a RIGHT to a TRIAL by JURY.


No, they don't. Or have the police never killed anyone in your world?
 
2013-06-24 10:27:44 AM

LasersHurt: GoldSpider: OK then.

By all means, don't let me stop you from publicly beating a dead horse as much as you'd like.


I get it, you want nothing more than for people to forget about this.
 
2013-06-24 10:29:42 AM

GoldSpider: LasersHurt: GoldSpider: OK then.

By all means, don't let me stop you from publicly beating a dead horse as much as you'd like.

I get it, you want nothing more than for people to forget about this.


Yes, that's exactly what I said. You got me. Otherwise me might all be killed by drones. Yep.
 
2013-06-24 10:34:44 AM

qorkfiend: NostroZ: How about before a judge as our constitution states in the SIXTH AMENDMENT.  A citizen has a RIGHT to a TRIAL by JURY.

No, they don't. Or have the police never killed anyone in your world?


Cops don't get to kill people without a direct threat involved or other extenuating circumstances, and there is always an investigation on whether or not the use of deadly force was justified.

They don't get to say "Hey, this guy is talking about committing a crime. I'm gonna go ventilate his skull"
 
2013-06-24 10:36:24 AM

Aarontology: qorkfiend: NostroZ: How about before a judge as our constitution states in the SIXTH AMENDMENT.  A citizen has a RIGHT to a TRIAL by JURY.

No, they don't. Or have the police never killed anyone in your world?

Cops don't get to kill people without a direct threat involved or other extenuating circumstances, and there is always an investigation on whether or not the use of deadly force was justified.

They don't get to say "Hey, this guy is talking about committing a crime. I'm gonna go ventilate his skull"


My point is that there is no absolute, unassailable right to trial by jury.
 
2013-06-24 10:41:01 AM

qorkfiend: My point is that there is no absolute, unassailable right to trial by jury.


Fascinating.
 
2013-06-24 10:45:34 AM

GoldSpider: qorkfiend: My point is that there is no absolute, unassailable right to trial by jury.

Fascinating.


You believe there are absolutely no circumstances under which someone is punished without a jury trial?
 
2013-06-24 10:46:53 AM
Dear Tardarticle writer:
Once something is released, there's no point in going "lalalalala I can't hear you" about it.  From a PR standpoint, it's better for the NSA to be frank and clear up any rumors/misconceptions.   That doesn't mean what Snowden did wasn't harmful to US interests.
 
2013-06-24 10:55:14 AM
Did the NSA release information on spying on other countries?
 
2013-06-24 11:07:59 AM

LasersHurt: but if everyone doesn't shut the fark up and calm down a little it's going to keep being hard to separate the signal from the noise


It's been nearly three weeks since the original Guardian article and you've posited some form of this "signal/noise" argument in every thread since.

At some point you'd think it would occur to you that maybe the real problem is that there hasn't been any signal to detect, not that it's buried under too much noise.
 
2013-06-24 11:08:43 AM

skozlaw: LasersHurt: but if everyone doesn't shut the fark up and calm down a little it's going to keep being hard to separate the signal from the noise

It's been nearly three weeks since the original Guardian article and you've posited some form of this "signal/noise" argument in every thread since.


Bullshiat.
 
2013-06-24 11:20:53 AM
There's an assumption that the information now being released by the NSA is truthful. Given recent events, that might be incorrect.
 
2013-06-24 11:25:11 AM
Does the information harm the government or the American people? I no longer believe they are one and the same.
 
2013-06-24 11:28:26 AM

NostroZ: The PEOPLE need to have TRUSTED JUDGES in place to oversee these sensitive and controversial programs.


upload.wikimedia.org

Agrees.
 
2013-06-24 11:43:45 AM
The NSA is an hero for leaking classified information!
 
2013-06-24 11:54:21 AM

qorkfiend: NostroZ: How about before a judge as our constitution states in the SIXTH AMENDMENT.  A citizen has a RIGHT to a TRIAL by JURY.

No, they don't. Or have the police never killed anyone in your world?


While that is true, there is usually an investigation into it and it is frowned upon.

What happened with Anwar_al-Awlaki and his son is public and there is NO investigations, there is NO FROWNING.

We are CHEERING on a policy of killing a US citizen and his children without trial.
 
2013-06-24 11:55:20 AM

bindlestiff2600: i may end up missing out on my 15min of Hate (orwell)


I think you're getting your Orwell and Warhol mixed up. (Try 2 minutes)
 
2013-06-24 12:42:19 PM

NostroZ: I agree... the killing of Americans without a due process,


You mean like what Washington did when he led an army against the Whiskey Rebellion?

Or more like what Lincoln did when he killed hundreds of thousands of Confederates without trial?

Or maybe you mean more like what FDR did when all those Americans ended up fighting for the Nazis?

There have been numerous cases of presidents "killing American citizens" with the exact same amount of due process that Obama has, but you don't care about that, do you? All you care about is that Obama is using a new tool to do it, and that tool doesn't put American service members at risk, so it's cheating.

Just another example of "It was ok when everyone else did it, but when Obama does it I'm OUTRAGED!"
 
2013-06-24 12:44:03 PM

NostroZ: We need NEW FISA COURTS and judges that are not rubber stamp troglodytes.


And the FISA courts are FAR from rubber stamp troglodytes. If they were just rubber stamping everything, we'd have tens of thousands of these warrants a year. There are nowhere NEAR that many warrants getting approved, so we can safely assume that those FISA courts are doing their job and making sure that warrant requests meet the legal criteria they are supposed to meet.
 
2013-06-24 12:52:09 PM

NostroZ: Anwar al-Awlaki was a US CITIZEN and by the CONSTITUTION is afforded a trial by jury... for treason, at least.


don't shout at me, your opinion doesn't improve by doing that.

he was a terrorist and everyone including him agreed on that. does it hurt our creditability to drone strike him? probably a little. more so than killing taliban leaders in pakistan? no. he's dead, the worlds a better place. of all the things we have done wrong that hardly makes the list.
 
2013-06-24 01:03:15 PM

VarmintCong: bindlestiff2600: i may end up missing out on my 15min of Hate (orwell)

I think you're getting your Orwell and Warhol mixed up. (Try 2 minutes)


ooookay, that explains why everyone else is done before i am
thanks
 
2013-06-24 01:07:10 PM

Curious: NostroZ: Anwar al-Awlaki was a US CITIZEN and by the CONSTITUTION is afforded a trial by jury... for treason, at least.

don't shout at me, your opinion doesn't improve by doing that.

he was a terrorist and everyone including him agreed on that. does it hurt our creditability to drone strike him? probably a little. more so than killing taliban leaders in pakistan? no. he's dead, the worlds a better place. of all the things we have done wrong that hardly makes the list.


And his son?  What was his crime?

Why go after him TWO WEEKS later... why not leave him alone?
 
2013-06-24 01:13:24 PM

Nobodyn0se: NostroZ: I agree... the killing of Americans without a due process,

You mean like what Washington did when he led an army against the Whiskey Rebellion?

Or more like what Lincoln did when he killed hundreds of thousands of Confederates without trial?

Or maybe you mean more like what FDR did when all those Americans ended up fighting for the Nazis?

There have been numerous cases of presidents "killing American citizens" with the exact same amount of due process that Obama has, but you don't care about that, do you? All you care about is that Obama is using a new tool to do it, and that tool doesn't put American service members at risk, so it's cheating.

Just another example of "It was ok when everyone else did it, but when Obama does it I'm OUTRAGED!"


It was not okay back then and it is not okay now.

The civil war had a purpose; maintain the union.
The Whiskey Rebellion had a purpose; create the union.
The fight against the Nazi had a purpose; defend the freedom of our allies.

What is the purpose of our endless war against a feeling of terror?
I can certainly see what our casualties are from it... the very freedoms they allegedly hated us for.

That's the outrage.  It was a HUGE outrage when Bush did it to begin with (domestic spying - branding people terrorists), but we expected that from the Republicans.  They gave us McCarthy and Nixon.

But the Democrats.  For Obama to EXPAND on the things I elected him to DEMINISH... That is the OUTRAGE.

We have NO CHOICE in which boot to lick:  The Govt-Corporate left boot or the Corporate right boot!
 
2013-06-24 01:30:18 PM

NostroZ: What is the purpose of our endless war against a feeling of terror?


Legally, the justification is the same. Obama is breaking no law or constitutional provision, unless you also believe all those other presidents were also breaking the same law or constitutional provision.

NostroZ: For Obama to EXPAND on the things I elected him to DEMINISH... That is the OUTRAGE.


For you to think Obama has expanded anything is an outrage. Look at the facts.

Bush used warrantless wiretapping. Obama hasn't.
Bush killed far more terrorists than Obama has.
Bush opened Gitmo and filled it to the brim. Obama has done his best to close it, and has made it smaller in the meantime.


There is not a single way in which Obama is worse than Bush in the war on terror or civil liberties. Anyone who says otherwise is lying to you.
 
2013-06-24 02:05:35 PM

Nobodyn0se: Bush used warrantless wiretapping. Obama hasn't.


That's because Bush changed the rules after he got caught ignoring them. Obama also voted in favor of telco immunity on the wiretapping issue.

He may not be worse, but you'd have a hard time arguing he isn't just as bad. Along with most senators and representatives.
 
2013-06-24 02:49:57 PM
The NSA takes protecting their reputation as more important than protecting this country or national security.  They will release anything, no matter how damaging, to protect the image Snowden tarnished.  Anything that will protect their image and reduce their embarrassment or that will hurt and discredit Snowden is fair game, the country be damned.
 
2013-06-24 03:27:35 PM

Lost Thought 00: Fark does realize that there are other, more important things happening in the world, right? This NSA thing isn't even news to those of us who actually have been paying attention for the last decade


I cannot believe that people are so naive to think this hasn't been going on since 9/12/2001 or before.
 
2013-06-24 06:06:45 PM
LOL @ Lasershurt, the authoritarian is getting annoyed that this story has legs. Poor little thing. Dude's literally asking us to shut up about it, and that just makes me want to talk about it more.
 
2013-06-24 06:47:53 PM

LasersHurt: skozlaw: LasersHurt: but if everyone doesn't shut the fark up and calm down a little it's going to keep being hard to separate the signal from the noise

It's been nearly three weeks since the original Guardian article and you've posited some form of this "signal/noise" argument in every thread since.

Bullshiat.


Oh, you again..the one who said Snowden was the only one saying the NSA was spying on Americans, and there was no corroborative evidence, and you dismissed the retired admiral and anyone else in the know who backed Snowden up... How's that argument goin for ya?
 
2013-06-24 06:52:10 PM

TheJoe03: LOL @ Lasershurt, the authoritarian is getting annoyed that this story has legs. Poor little thing. Dude's literally asking us to shut up about it, and that just makes me want to talk about it more.


It's like he doesn't even make anyone mad anymore, you just kind of feel bad for him.

Seriously though, in a story where the NSA builds a multi-billion dollar facility to save their own copies of every email passing through some of the largest nodes... bringing up a signal to noise ratio argument is no route to anything but criticizing the NSA even more.

All power and no competence makes Jack an NSA analyst.
 
2013-06-24 06:53:34 PM

SlothB77: The NSA takes protecting their reputation as more important than protecting this country or national security.  They will release anything, no matter how damaging, to protect the image Snowden tarnished.  Anything that will protect their image and reduce their embarrassment or that will hurt and discredit Snowden is fair game, the country be damned.


Too late... every time I hear the US government talk about Snowden, all I hear in my head is "liar says what?"
 
2013-06-24 07:52:41 PM

firefly212: LasersHurt: skozlaw: LasersHurt: but if everyone doesn't shut the fark up and calm down a little it's going to keep being hard to separate the signal from the noise

It's been nearly three weeks since the original Guardian article and you've posited some form of this "signal/noise" argument in every thread since.

Bullshiat.

Oh, you again..the one who said Snowden was the only one saying the NSA was spying on Americans, and there was no corroborative evidence, and you dismissed the retired admiral and anyone else in the know who backed Snowden up... How's that argument goin for ya?


I welcome your proof that something I may have said once at the outset is somehow my only view on the matter. Somehow I suspect you're misinterpreting something I said once, then following me around dismissing me.

That said, you've already decided what I think and do, so, we both know this is futile.
 
2013-06-24 10:03:39 PM

LasersHurt: firefly212: LasersHurt: skozlaw: LasersHurt: but if everyone doesn't shut the fark up and calm down a little it's going to keep being hard to separate the signal from the noise

It's been nearly three weeks since the original Guardian article and you've posited some form of this "signal/noise" argument in every thread since.

Bullshiat.

Oh, you again..the one who said Snowden was the only one saying the NSA was spying on Americans, and there was no corroborative evidence, and you dismissed the retired admiral and anyone else in the know who backed Snowden up... How's that argument goin for ya?

I welcome your proof that something I may have said once at the outset is somehow my only view on the matter. Somehow I suspect you're misinterpreting something I said once, then following me around dismissing me.

That said, you've already decided what I think and do, so, we both know this is futile.


http://www.fark.com/comments/7790808/In-less-than-24-hours-a-petitio n- to-pardon-Edward-Snowden-of-any-potential-wrongdoing-has-already-gaine d-almost-25000-signatures

Glad you looked foward to me posting a link to the thread where you said you didn't believe any of the people telling on the NSA "over a certain few other people," also glad you looked forward to me pointing back at you saying they declassified everything and there was a "full explanation" even though the NSA itself has still been continuing to release more information because what you said was abjectly false.

With respect to it being your current position, I cannot speak. I merely asked how that argument was going for you... I assume, given that you were proven to be lying, and pretty much everything you said in that thread turned out to be utterly false, that the particular argument was not going well for you. I'm very glad to hear that you've moved on to a less specific version of it where instead of just saying you don't believe in the reality laid out before you, you simply claim there is too much "noise" for you to discern wtf is going on. I'm proud that you've acknowledged your inability to analyze basic facts, and look forward to spirited, well-informed dialogue with you in the future, once you manage to get a handle on the world around you.
 
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