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(Politico)   Obama: I must stop this *damn* thing. Why, for thirteen years we've done shiat like this 'til now. I must stop Snowden from running... but how?   (politico.com) divider line 86
    More: Interesting, President Obama, Government of Venezuela, Jennifer Psaki, independent media, press freedom  
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2253 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Jun 2013 at 9:42 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-24 08:34:19 AM
I'm amazed we haven't just killed already with a drone strike.
 
2013-06-24 08:38:58 AM
Then Obama got an idea.  An awful idea.  Obama got a wonderful awful idea.
 
2013-06-24 08:41:14 AM
img.fark.net
Since it's already out there...
 
2013-06-24 08:48:20 AM
Mysterious car crash in 3 2 1...
 
2013-06-24 08:50:04 AM

Weaver95: I'm amazed we haven't just killed already with a drone strike.


I was thinking "mysterious plane crash over open ocean"

or the plan from Season 3 of West Wing

/second time I've pulled a "how the grinch stole xmas" politics greenlight
 
2013-06-24 08:58:03 AM

Weaver95: I'm amazed we haven't just killed already with a drone strike.


Well, the Russian government might take it unkindly if we incinerated Snowden with a Hellfire missile in downtown Moscow.
 
2013-06-24 09:04:12 AM

Weaver95: I'm amazed we haven't just killed already with a drone strike.


Are you really? Even if you honestly believed the government was considering it, we have people pissed about killing Awlaki, and no one in the US even liked the guy. Here we have people who actually think he's a hero, you can't just kill someone like that.
 
2013-06-24 09:17:27 AM

nmrsnr: Are you really? Even if you honestly believed the government was considering it, we have people pissed about killing Awlaki, and no one in the US even liked the guy. Here we have people who actually think he's a hero, you can't just kill someone like that.


I have to agree - executions without trials are purely for those US citizens who aren't household names.
 
2013-06-24 09:17:29 AM

nmrsnr: Weaver95: I'm amazed we haven't just killed already with a drone strike.

Are you really? Even if you honestly believed the government was considering it, we have people pissed about killing Awlaki, and no one in the US even liked the guy. Here we have people who actually think he's a hero, you can't just kill someone like that.


Why not? Because its politically unpopular? I thought we were at war.
 
2013-06-24 09:45:13 AM

Babwa Wawa: nmrsnr: Are you really? Even if you honestly believed the government was considering it, we have people pissed about killing Awlaki, and no one in the US even liked the guy. Here we have people who actually think he's a hero, you can't just kill someone like that.

I have to agree - executions without trials are purely for those US citizens who aren't household names.


And who are, of course, not white.
 
2013-06-24 09:46:27 AM

NickelP: Mysterious car crash in 3 2 1...



Why?  Snowden running off to dictatorships is really really not legitimizing his 'cause.'   Despite whatever latter-day internet libertarians might think.
 
2013-06-24 09:47:54 AM

nmrsnr: Weaver95: I'm amazed we haven't just killed already with a drone strike.

Are you really? Even if you honestly believed the government was considering it, we have people pissed about killing Awlaki, and no one in the US even liked the guy. Here we have people who actually think he's a hero, you can't just kill someone like that.


He's getting back to his roots.  This is like classic pre-2008 Weaver.
 
2013-06-24 09:48:15 AM

Babwa Wawa: I have to agree - executions without trials are purely for those US citizens who aren't household names.


Osama Bin Laden disagrees.

gilgigamesh: Why not? Because its politically unpopular? I thought we were at war.


Because making martyrs is always a bad idea, but more importantly because killing people who are trying to kill you is part of leading a country, while killing those who merely oppose what you are doing is what despots do, and that's pretty universally seen as bad (except by said despots, of course).
 
2013-06-24 09:52:51 AM
Snowden could consolidate Obama headaches by fleeing to Syria.
 
2013-06-24 09:55:49 AM

Cletus C.: Snowden could consolidate Obama Rand Paul headaches by fleeing to Syria outside a liquor store he just robbed.


Not FTFY, just a fun alternate possibility.
 
2013-06-24 09:55:55 AM

DarnoKonrad: NickelP: Mysterious car crash in 3 2 1...


Why?  Snowden running off to dictatorships is really really not legitimizing his 'cause.'   Despite whatever latter-day internet libertarians might think.


This is what I don't understand.I seriously need an explanation as to why someone would run to Russia or Venezuela under the guise of "protection from an authoritarian government". It's like a child running from a verbally abusive father who threatens physical violence, to a father that has already been proven to beat the shiat out of children.

That, or my Monday morning analogies are fu*king whacked.
 
2013-06-24 09:56:25 AM

nmrsnr: Osama Bin Laden disagrees.


Osama Bin Laden was a US citizen?
 
2013-06-24 09:56:42 AM
Obama would be best off just letting him run, doing the polite diplomatic thing and asking the host country to turn him over, and then, once he is ensconced in Ecuador or wherever, stop talking about him.
 
2013-06-24 09:57:06 AM

Anti_illuminati: DarnoKonrad: NickelP: Mysterious car crash in 3 2 1...


Why?  Snowden running off to dictatorships is really really not legitimizing his 'cause.'   Despite whatever latter-day internet libertarians might think.

This is what I don't understand.I seriously need an explanation as to why someone would run to Russia or Venezuela under the guise of "protection from an authoritarian government". It's like a child running from a verbally abusive father who threatens physical violence, to a father that has already been proven to beat the shiat out of children.

That, or my Monday morning analogies are fu*king whacked.


Didn't he run to Ecuador though?  (I might have missed something, haven't been following since Friday or Saturday)
 
2013-06-24 09:58:09 AM

Anti_illuminati: .I seriously need an explanation as to why someone would run to Russia or Venezuela


He's trying to get his shiat together so he can end up in Ecuador, rather than imprisoned in the Ecuadorian embassy in London.
 
2013-06-24 09:58:45 AM

coeyagi: Didn't he run to Ecuador though?  (I might have missed something, haven't been following since Friday or Saturday)


No idea. I was camping without my cell phone to protect my freedoms all weekend.
 
2013-06-24 10:02:12 AM

DarnoKonrad: NickelP: Mysterious car crash in 3 2 1...


Why?  Snowden running off to dictatorships is really really not legitimizing his 'cause.'   Despite whatever latter-day internet libertarians might think.


What "dictatorships"?
 
2013-06-24 10:02:46 AM
I tell you what, it may be totally innocent, but that man could not have picked a shadier route to take.
 
2013-06-24 10:04:13 AM
So, I made a post the other day about how the Middle East needs a benevolent dictator who will raise them like a parent and teach them and educate them, because democracy doesn't work when the population is uneducated. I wrote that any time the Middle East would get about to the teenager level of development, and just when the dictator would most need to let go, instead they tighten down.

I still hold that opinion, however, holy hell you can apply the same analogy to the U.S. - "rest of the world" relationship. We're no longer top dog, we need to bow out graciously, and we can't do it. :/
 
2013-06-24 10:04:23 AM

LasersHurt: I tell you what, it may be totally innocent, but that man could not have picked a shadier route to take.


I heard next he's seeking asylum here:

www.spscriptorium.com
 
2013-06-24 10:06:10 AM

gilgigamesh: nmrsnr: Weaver95: I'm amazed we haven't just killed already with a drone strike.

Are you really? Even if you honestly believed the government was considering it, we have people pissed about killing Awlaki, and no one in the US even liked the guy. Here we have people who actually think he's a hero, you can't just kill someone like that.

Why not? Because its politically unpopular? I thought we were at war.


Our ENDLESS WAR on upon a FEELING (terror) is the most ridiculous 1984 double-speak concept I've ever heard... because of this 'WAR' it is now acceptable to kill Americans without a due process for terrorism, spy upon our citizens, have the president use JSOC as his personal death squad, kill enemies and civilians (in Pakistan, who we are at peace with and have nukes) all by drone without oversight and with huge collateral damage.

War is fought for a purpose.
WHY ARE WE FIGHTING THIS WAR?

To LOSE ALL OUR BASIC FREEDOMS?
We've lost the ability to speak out against our government (with us or against us).  We've lost the right to our privacy (NSA).  We've lost the right to due process (labeling Americans as terrorists).  We've lost ANY moral high ground we've to the world... we're no country upon a hill, shining as a beacon to the world... this is our edifice upon a hill... the ALL SEEING EYE of SAURON
img.fark.net

What is the PURPOSE of this WAR?  To lose ALL OUR BASIC FREEDOMS?
 
2013-06-24 10:07:07 AM

Babwa Wawa: nmrsnr: Osama Bin Laden disagrees.

Osama Bin Laden was a US citizen?


Yes. Secretly, of cause
 
2013-06-24 10:10:49 AM

Babwa Wawa: nmrsnr: Osama Bin Laden disagrees.

Osama Bin Laden was a US citizen?


I fail at reading comprehension. Carry on.
 
2013-06-24 10:11:41 AM

Peki: We're no longer top dog, we need to bow out graciously, and we can't do it. :/


Our military might/spending is 4 times that of the 2nd country - China. And more than the top ten countries combined. Our economy is double that of the 2nd country - China (thorough neck-and-neck with the EU according to IMF data).

We're still top dog in the points that matter on a world-wide power scale, but we're losing the battle on almost every other indicator, i.e., middle class, poverty, education, technology and infrastructure etc.
 
2013-06-24 10:12:42 AM

nmrsnr: Babwa Wawa: I have to agree - executions without trials are purely for those US citizens who aren't household names.

Osama Bin Laden disagrees.

gilgigamesh: Why not? Because its politically unpopular? I thought we were at war.

Because making martyrs is always a bad idea, but more importantly because killing people who are trying to kill you is part of leading a country, while killing those who merely oppose what you are doing is what despots do, and that's pretty universally seen as bad (except by said despots, of course).


What's worrisome is that the hatred of Snowden crosses partisan political lines.  Ra-ra, America first, last, and only jingoistic conservatives think he's a traitor, obviously, because Real Americans want to be spied on for freedum.  Partisan liberal lemmings want him hung because he's made the Messiah look bad.  There are sitting Senators and Reps throwing around words like "traitor" and "treason."

Remember when being a traitor and committing treason meant giving aid and comfort to an enemy, and not exposing war crimes and secret, Orwellian surveillance programs?
 
2013-06-24 10:14:13 AM

LewDux: Babwa Wawa: nmrsnr: Osama Bin Laden disagrees.

Osama Bin Laden was a US citizen?

Yes. Secretly, of cause


No, but Anwar al-Awlaki WAS a US citizen in Yemen.

He was killed by a drone, without a trial, for allegedly spreading terrorist propaganda ONLINE (hey Farkers... watch out what you write... NSA might consider you propagandizing and drone you and your family).

His SON was killed in a SEPARATE drone strike... his SON was ALSO a US citizen and had NO ONLINE presence or propaganda activity, but had the simple misfortune of being the son of an alleged US citizen terrorist (remember, no trial... so alleged is all we will EVER HAVE).

Killing his SON two weeks later by the CIA was despicable.
A child.  A US citizen who was killed for the alleged sins of his father.

THIS IS WHAT THIS WAR ON TERROR HAS LED US TO DO.
Kill our own citizens and THEN THEIR CHILDREN without trial.
 
2013-06-24 10:16:27 AM

NostroZ: He was killed by a drone, without a trial, for allegedly spreading terrorist propaganda ONLINE (hey Farkers... watch out what you write... NSA might consider you propagandizing and drone you and your family)


You really believe this don't you?
 
2013-06-24 10:21:25 AM

NostroZ: What is the PURPOSE of this WAR?  To lose ALL OUR BASIC FREEDOMS?


I march before the martyred world, an army for the fight;
I speak of great, heroic days of victory and might;
I hold a banner drenched in blood, I urge you to be brave;
I lead you to your destiny, I lead you to your grave;
Your bones will build my palaces, your eyes will stud my crown;
For I am Mars, the god of war, and I will cut you down.
 
2013-06-24 10:22:15 AM

Anti_illuminati: NostroZ: He was killed by a drone, without a trial, for allegedly spreading terrorist propaganda ONLINE (hey Farkers... watch out what you write... NSA might consider you propagandizing and drone you and your family)

You really believe this don't you?


CAPS LOCK never lie.
 
2013-06-24 10:24:07 AM

nmrsnr: Babwa Wawa: I have to agree - executions without trials are purely for those US citizens who aren't household names.

Osama Bin Laden disagrees.

gilgigamesh: Why not? Because its politically unpopular? I thought we were at war.

Because making martyrs is always a bad idea, but more importantly because killing people who are trying to kill you is part of leading a country, while killing those who merely oppose what you are doing is what despots do, and that's pretty universally seen as bad (except by said despots, of course).


The line isn't that clear. We've gone after people for little more (or less) than speaking out against us. Certainly with groups like AQAP, who do want to harm us, we should seriously ask ourselves whether they have that capacity before blowing the living fark out of remote tribal villages.
 
2013-06-24 10:26:22 AM

Anti_illuminati: NostroZ: He was killed by a drone, without a trial, for allegedly spreading terrorist propaganda ONLINE (hey Farkers... watch out what you write... NSA might consider you propagandizing and drone you and your family)

You really believe this don't you?


it doesn't help our case when we kill innocent people then lie about it afterwards. Something we do time and again.
 
2013-06-24 10:28:58 AM

Anti_illuminati: NostroZ: He was killed by a drone, without a trial, for allegedly spreading terrorist propaganda ONLINE (hey Farkers... watch out what you write... NSA might consider you propagandizing and drone you and your family)

You really believe this don't you?


Do you know the definition of mission creep?

What's our mission in Afghanistan???  Defeat terror... what is terror... a feeling... an ambiguous feeling... in 2001 we were terrified of Afghanistan, in 2010 we are terrified of a US citizen in Yemen... to the point that we kill his SON two weeks after his murder, simply for being the SON of someone we considered a terrorist.

That was TEN YEARS.
Do you see the MISSION CREEP?

How do you think TEN MORE YEARS of a war upon an ambiguous feeling will lead us to?
If it's okay to kill US citizens without trial and then execute their children simply for being born to the wrong person... this is not the way we treat US citizens or even our enemies.

We've lost our way.
Do you really believe that now that we've gone this far, we wont label our own as 'traitors of the state' or enemies of capitalism?
It has happened before and it will happen again... except this time, we have drones and meta-data collection.

How far do you think this MISSION CREEP will continue in our ENDLESS WAR upon a feeling?
 
2013-06-24 10:29:22 AM
1) Give an order to Special Forces
2) take credit
3) profit


We know he knows how to conduct this plan.

Snowden was cool when he was whistle blowing about the US government spying on its own citizens. But turning over US secrets to the China? Who the eff does this guy think he is?! A Clinton?

It's time we free the hell out of him!

img.fark.net

/needs someone with some skills to update that.
//Need to switch it over to a drone.
///maybe edit the language.
 
2013-06-24 10:29:41 AM

gilgigamesh: Anti_illuminati: NostroZ: He was killed by a drone, without a trial, for allegedly spreading terrorist propaganda ONLINE (hey Farkers... watch out what you write... NSA might consider you propagandizing and drone you and your family)

You really believe this don't you?

it doesn't help our case when we kill innocent people then lie about it afterwards. Something we do time and again.


Well to be fair, that's something every government in the history of governments have done time-and-time again. When you see a drone flying down flat bush ave though, let me know and I'll be certain to watch what I write.
 
2013-06-24 10:33:53 AM

Anti_illuminati: You really believe this don't you?


Some people are beyond help.
They'll scream and cry and yell about how it's stupid not to profile Muslims, even if they're citizens. They'll make comments like "Religion of PEACE" and "Everything I need to know about Islam I learned on 9/11". They'll emphasize the HUSSEIN in Barack Obama and entertain the idea he's secretly sympathetic to jihadists.
Then they'll act like al-Awlaki was killed at the Tastee Freeze after watching a Little League game, instead of joined up with a terrorist cell in the desert, evading Yemeni authorities.

And they're perfectly able to keep these two contradictory thought in their head at once.

They might even have a point about the guy's son, but their opinion on the father tells me all I need to know about their motivation, and it has more to do with a sikrit muslin usurper than it does anything resembling justice.
 
2013-06-24 10:35:30 AM

NostroZ: Anti_illuminati: NostroZ: He was killed by a drone, without a trial, for allegedly spreading terrorist propaganda ONLINE (hey Farkers... watch out what you write... NSA might consider you propagandizing and drone you and your family)

You really believe this don't you?

Do you know the definition of mission creep?

What's our mission in Afghanistan???  Defeat terror... what is terror... a feeling... an ambiguous feeling... in 2001 we were terrified of Afghanistan, in 2010 we are terrified of a US citizen in Yemen... to the point that we kill his SON two weeks after his murder, simply for being the SON of someone we considered a terrorist.

That was TEN YEARS.
Do you see the MISSION CREEP?

How do you think TEN MORE YEARS of a war upon an ambiguous feeling will lead us to?
If it's okay to kill US citizens without trial and then execute their children simply for being born to the wrong person... this is not the way we treat US citizens or even our enemies.

We've lost our way.
Do you really believe that now that we've gone this far, we wont label our own as 'traitors of the state' or enemies of capitalism?
It has happened before and it will happen again... except this time, we have drones and meta-data collection.

How far do you think this MISSION CREEP will continue in our ENDLESS WAR upon a feeling?


What if it's more than a feeling?

www.directoryofboston.com
 
2013-06-24 10:37:58 AM

verbaltoxin: How far do you think this MISSION CREEP will continue in our ENDLESS WAR upon a feeling?

What if it's more than a feeling?


Better yet.
images.amazon.com
 
2013-06-24 10:42:16 AM

NostroZ: How far do you think this MISSION CREEP will continue in our ENDLESS WAR upon a feeling?


 img.fark.net
 
2013-06-24 10:45:04 AM
Muslims are gonna muzz and Mericans gonna Merica the sh*t out of the Muzzes.  -Actual GOP talking point, 2004.
 
2013-06-24 10:47:26 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: They might even have a point about the guy's son, but their opinion on the father tells me all I need to know about their motivation, and it has more to do with a sikrit muslin usurper than it does anything resembling justice


Oh nonsense. Both on your ad hominem attack and on al Alwaki. The guy was being harassed here and in the UK long before he joined up with aqap. Tell me: what did he do to have Obama personally intervene with Yemeni authorities to ensure they kept him imprisoned without charges?

Go ahead an look it up. I will wait.
 
2013-06-24 10:47:58 AM
I think it's fairly lazy (at best) to look at Snowden's 'route' and say, "Look, he is a traitor!" Suggest an alternate, if you're goal is to escape/avoid extradition. None of the totes free countries are offering...
 
2013-06-24 10:48:38 AM

Anti_illuminati: verbaltoxin: How far do you think this MISSION CREEP will continue in our ENDLESS WAR upon a feeling?

What if it's more than a feeling?

Better yet.
[images.amazon.com image 500x422]


img.fark.net
 
2013-06-24 10:52:07 AM

gilgigamesh: The line isn't that clear. We've gone after people for little more (or less) than speaking out against us. Certainly with groups like AQAP, who do want to harm us, we should seriously ask ourselves whether they have that capacity before blowing the living fark out of remote tribal villages.


AQAP? Al Qaeda and Pals?

In general I agree in the potential excessive use of force against Al Qaeda, but at least there we know that if they had the capability, they would use it. With Snowden, even if he had a bunch of cruise missiles, I don't believe he'd physically harm anyone or anything in the US (except maybe Jenny Miller from third grade, she knows what she did.)

Fark It: There are sitting Senators and Reps throwing around words like "traitor" and "treason."


While Traitor may be a strong word, the guy did break the law and then flee from prosecution. I don't have much sympathy for him.
 
2013-06-24 10:54:12 AM
Just wait until he's on the ground in Latin or South America, then get a ground team in place. Do the legwork to figure out where he is, then black van his ass.
 
2013-06-24 11:00:40 AM

Anti_illuminati: it doesn't help our case when we kill innocent people then lie about it afterwards. Something we do time and again.

Well to be fair, that's something every government in the history of governments have done time-and-time again


Except with Anwar_al-Awlaki we PROUDLY said we KILLED A US CITIZEN WITHOUT TRIAL.

And then two weeks later... PROUDLY and OPENLY said we killed his SON for nothing more than being born to an alleged US citizen turned online enemy propagandist.

We are saying they DESERVED it... we're NOT LYING... this is the new precedent... kill a US citizen without trial and then two weeks later his son... no trial... no mercy.

This is not the rule of law we live in anymore, when we can do this to our CITIZENS.  Do you know the sixth amendment?  Where's the trial?  Where's the charges?  When has he ever faced accusers?
 
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