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(The New Yorker)   "These charges [against Snowden] send a clear message," the spokesman said. "In the United States, you can't spy on people"   (newyorker.com) divider line 210
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2475 clicks; posted to Politics » on 23 Jun 2013 at 8:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-23 10:19:24 PM  

El Pachuco: Darth_Lukecash: But here's the real issue: what the NSA did was legal and approved by the congress.

So were the contents of the Pentagon Papers.


AND the detention of Americans of Japanese ancestry.
 
2013-06-23 10:19:34 PM  
Hey, he tired to warn everyone what he was planning with his 1992 hit single "Informer":

img.fark.net
Snow

img.fark.net
Snowden

See?
 
2013-06-23 10:23:42 PM  

mrlewish: At the end of this do we become a country worth bombing?


Ask Bill Ayers.  He's set of plenty of bombs here.  He also says Fartbongo should face war crimes charges.  When a terrorist says you're a scumbag, you have problems.
 
2013-06-23 10:23:51 PM  
Ooooo, we revoked his passport. He is in trouble now. I am sure Russia, China, and Ecuador will help us and hand over the traitor. Hahha. No they won't. They will just give us the finger and all we can do is take it up the rear end. Nobody fears Obama.

I swear, there is there a new Cold War we would lose. I am sure that is what all you leftists want.

I really hope Snowden gets to jail somehow and gets a$$ raped by the biggest black guy there. Over and over again.
 
2013-06-23 10:25:26 PM  
Said it before, I'll say it again:

Snowden gets hold of NSA secrets, leaks them through the press.  Snowden is considered a Traitor.

BUT

If Snowden stayed anonymous as a source, leaks NSA secrets to a reporter, and the reporter then reports the story?  Reporter is considered a hero.

Snowden's a traitor because he cut out the middleman?
 
2013-06-23 10:26:25 PM  

2wolves: The charges that are still sealed and considered secret? Those charges?


If by "still sealed and considered secret" you mean "were unsealed on Friday afternoon", then yes, those charges.

Link
 
2013-06-23 10:27:09 PM  

Nabb1: "Common criminals" generally commit crimes of opportunity for their own benefit, usually monetary. What did Snowden possibly have to gain for himself knowing full well that his actions would result I either lengthy incarceration or fleeing for his home county leaving behind his friends and family perhaps forever? Yes, I get that you think the rest of us have no right to know what our government is doing to us because our government is infallible, and knows what is best for us and we have no right to criticize, for we are it humbleservants of the almighty state, but what did behave to gain by this?


Well, he's a minor international celebrity now, so he's got that going for him. Whether the gains from that offset everything else is a separate matter of course, but even if not, it's not as though that's something surprisng - plenty (perhaps even most, I daresay) common criminals actually end up making things worse for themselves. Probably because criminals in general tend not to be the brightest.
 
2013-06-23 10:27:35 PM  
Wow. The Internet Tough Guys are out in force tonight.
 
2013-06-23 10:28:48 PM  

RanDomino: The concept of whistleblowing no longer exists, apparently. Just like the concept that there's anything wrong with entrapment has gone out the window.


Just to clarify, are you calling Snowden a whistleblower? And what does entrapment have to do with this discussion?
 
2013-06-23 10:31:21 PM  

Biological Ali: Nabb1: "Common criminals" generally commit crimes of opportunity for their own benefit, usually monetary. What did Snowden possibly have to gain for himself knowing full well that his actions would result I either lengthy incarceration or fleeing for his home county leaving behind his friends and family perhaps forever? Yes, I get that you think the rest of us have no right to know what our government is doing to us because our government is infallible, and knows what is best for us and we have no right to criticize, for we are it humbleservants of the almighty state, but what did behave to gain by this?

Well, he's a minor international celebrity now, so he's got that going for him. Whether the gains from that offset everything else is a separate matter of course, but even if not, it's not as though that's something surprisng - plenty (perhaps even most, I daresay) common criminals actually end up making things worse for themselves. Probably because criminals in general tend not to be the brightest.


"Tend not to be the brightest." No, most criminals are rather stupid. Some are smart, and the Snowden had to be intelligent just to end up in a situation where he could do what he did.
 
2013-06-23 10:32:34 PM  

Biological Ali: RanDomino: The concept of whistleblowing no longer exists, apparently. Just like the concept that there's anything wrong with entrapment has gone out the window.

Just to clarify, are you calling Snowden a whistleblower? And what does entrapment have to do with this discussion?


Yes, he is. He told Americans what their government was doing to them.
 
2013-06-23 10:32:58 PM  
There's an old bumper sticker that needs updating .. "don't steal- the government hates competition ".
 
2013-06-23 10:34:16 PM  

uknesvuinng: 2wolves: The charges that are still sealed and considered secret? Those charges?

If by "still sealed and considered secret" you mean "were unsealed on Friday afternoon", then yes, those charges.

Link


Huh.  So, they want to change him with espionage, but to get around Hong Kong's "We won't extradite political criminals" law, they framed it as "theft of government property."

Oh, no, we won't try him for committing a political crime!  Just theft!

They straight up farking lied to the HK government.
 
2013-06-23 10:35:01 PM  

darkedgefan: I really hope Snowden gets to jail somehow and gets a$$ raped by the biggest black guy there. Over and over again.


oh my.
 
2013-06-23 10:37:22 PM  

Cubicle Jockey: The three charges against Snowden are:

"theft of government property"


What property was "stolen"?  I know files were copied.  Given how so many people view that music "sharing" is not technically theft, how is this theft?
 
2013-06-23 10:40:19 PM  

LeoffDaGrate: Said it before, I'll say it again:

Snowden gets hold of NSA secrets, leaks them through the press.  Snowden is considered a Traitor.

BUT

If Snowden stayed anonymous as a source, leaks NSA secrets to a reporter, and the reporter then reports the story?  Reporter is considered a hero.

Snowden's a traitor because he cut out the middleman?


Snowden is a traitor because the government, through the media, controls the narrative.  The narriative is that he threatened the security of the American people by telling them that the government doesn't value their input.

And he didn't want to go in anonymous, because 1)  He knew that'd be impossible, and 2) The media would just quash the story in the name of national security.

Thus controlling the narrative.

Anyone else really getting sick of "national security?"  Fark national security.  Fark it in the ear.
 
2013-06-23 10:40:45 PM  

Nabb1: "Tend not to be the brightest." No, most criminals are rather stupid. Some are smart, and the Snowden had to be intelligent just to end up in a situation where he could do what he did.


The point is not whether or not he was generally "intelligent"; plenty of plenty of criminals are very bright and very well-edcuated. The point is that in committing this crime he did something stupid, which is something he has in common with many regular criminals.

Now, I may turn out to be wrong - he may have worked out an excellent scheme to keep from facing trial and to make a ton of money of his newfound celebrity status. In that case I'd have to concede that he's probably not so stupid.
 
2013-06-23 10:41:54 PM  

Nabb1: Biological Ali: RanDomino: The concept of whistleblowing no longer exists, apparently. Just like the concept that there's anything wrong with entrapment has gone out the window.

Just to clarify, are you calling Snowden a whistleblower? And what does entrapment have to do with this discussion?

Yes, he is. He told Americans what their government was doing to them.


I see. What about Manning. Was he a whistleblower too?
 
2013-06-23 10:44:44 PM  
Sgygus
What is the big secret that Snowden shockingly revealed? That the NSA has been electronically eavesdropping on all of us? That has not been a secret for many years now.

This one's "Poisoning the Well", right?


Biological Ali
Just to clarify, are you calling Snowden a whistleblower?

Yes

And what does entrapment have to do with this discussion?

Just pointing out a parallel motion.


sendtodave
They straight up farking lied to the HK government.

img.fark.net
 
2013-06-23 10:45:53 PM  

RanDomino: Yes


What exactly would you say Snowden "blew the whistle" on? And as a followup, do you consider Manning to be a "whistleblower" as well?
 
2013-06-23 10:47:31 PM  
RanDomino:

sendtodave
They straight up farking lied to the HK government.

[img.fark.net image 537x588]


I thought the US revoked his passport.
I am surprised you can leave HK and enter another country without a valid passport.
 
2013-06-23 10:48:07 PM  

Biological Ali: Nabb1: Biological Ali: RanDomino: The concept of whistleblowing no longer exists, apparently. Just like the concept that there's anything wrong with entrapment has gone out the window.

Just to clarify, are you calling Snowden a whistleblower? And what does entrapment have to do with this discussion?

Yes, he is. He told Americans what their government was doing to them.

I see. What about Manning. Was he a whistleblower too?


No, he indiscriminately dumped high volumes of information for reasons other than whistle blowing. Manning didn't even know the contents of most of what he released. Motive counts when you are talking about whistle blowing.
 
2013-06-23 10:50:27 PM  

uknesvuinng: Link


Oh, the reaction slideshow is cute.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) said the court order for telephone records was part of a three-month renewal of an ongoing practice, the Associated Press reported.
"It's called protecting America," Feinstein said at a Capitol Hill news conference

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.)Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) thought everyone "should just calm down."
"Right now I think everyone should just calm down and understand this isn't anything that's brand new," Reid said.
Al GoreIn digital era, privacy must be a priority. Is it just me, or is secret blanket surveillance obscenely outrageous?

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said he was "glad" the NSA was collecting phone records.
"I don't mind Verizon turning over records to the government if the government is going to make sure that they try to match up a known terrorist phone with somebody in the United States," Graham said in an interview on "Fox and Friends."

Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.)Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.) also claimed that reports of the NSA collecting phone records was "nothing particularly new."
"Every member of the United States Senate has been advised of this," Chambliss said. "And to my knowledge we have not had any citizen who has registered a complaint relative to the gathering of this information."

Mike Lee
#NSA surveillance of #Verizon cell phone records illustrates why I voted against Patriot Act


Seems to run the gamut.  But, seriously?  "It's called protecting America?"  Go back to bed, Bush.
 
2013-06-23 10:51:53 PM  
Biological Ali
I see. What about Manning. Was he a whistleblower too?

"But but it was indiscriminate!"

Shove it up your ass.
 
2013-06-23 10:52:44 PM  

RanDomino: Sgygus
What is the big secret that Snowden shockingly revealed? That the NSA has been electronically eavesdropping on all of us? That has not been a secret for many years now.

This one's "Poisoning the Well", right?


Biological Ali
Just to clarify, are you calling Snowden a whistleblower?

Yes

And what does entrapment have to do with this discussion?

Just pointing out a parallel motion.


sendtodave
They straight up farking lied to the HK government.

[img.fark.net image 537x588]


Why is that signed by Nana Nana Nana Nana?
 
2013-06-23 10:57:52 PM  
Guilty of treason:

img.fark.net

No, I'm not comparing Snowden to these guys...don't be fatuous, Jeffrey
 
2013-06-23 11:00:33 PM  

Biological Ali: Nabb1: "Tend not to be the brightest." No, most criminals are rather stupid. Some are smart, and the Snowden had to be intelligent just to end up in a situation where he could do what he did.

The point is not whether or not he was generally "intelligent"; plenty of plenty of criminals are very bright and very well-edcuated. The point is that in committing this crime he did something stupid, which is something he has in common with many regular criminals.

Now, I may turn out to be wrong - he may have worked out an excellent scheme to keep from facing trial and to make a ton of money of his newfound celebrity status. In that case I'd have to concede that he's probably not so stupid.


No, all criminals are stupid in one way or another. Even Bernie Madoff was stupid. Snowden was dumber than most--blowing the whistle on the government AND fleeing in such a public manner AND dumping a lot of sensitive information AND lying about his resume....he's made sure that whatever goodwill he garnered at the beginning of his little run has been destroyed. People who might have supported him for sticking it to The Man aren't going to be happy about his dumbassery for lying about his credentials; people who applaud his whistleblowing are less than happy about his release of classified intel.

He's dumb. He did something on the spur of the moment, and then tried to scramble together a reasonable excuse for why he did it, and it's not panning out for him.
 
2013-06-23 11:01:21 PM  

Biological Ali: RanDomino: Yes

What exactly would you say Snowden "blew the whistle" on? And as a followup, do you consider Manning to be a "whistleblower" as well?


He blew the whistle on the HUGE TOPIC THAT EVERYONE IS DEBATING RIGHT NOW.

You might have read about it.  I can fill you in:  Get this, the NSA is spying on, well, everybody.
 
2013-06-23 11:02:48 PM  

Nabb1: No, he indiscriminately dumped high volumes of information for reasons other than whistle blowing. Manning didn't even know the contents of most of what he released. Motive counts when you are talking about whistle blowing.


Snowden didn't know what he was leaking particularly well either, given the discrepancies his statements and the actual facts.

But okay. Let's define what exactly constitutes a "whistleblower". I think there's one thing that goes without saying - to be a whistleblower, you have to bring to light information about some action that was not previously known, and that the action must be something that unequivocally should not have happened. To let either of these two aspects out of the "whistleblower" definition would be to water it down to the point of meaninglessness.

Now, "unequivocally should not have happened" itself has several aspects. It could be on the basis of the action being illegal or unconstitutional (which is what seems to be the main basis for the "whistleblower" allegations), a breach of some internal policy, a result of incompetence, or in conflict with some principle of ethics that everybody agrees on. I think I've covered just about every important base here.

To give a sense of what I'm talking about when I say that Snowden, keep in mind that there are some people who genuinely consider Manning a "whistleblower". You may or may recall back when the wikileaks thing broke there were a number of comments from people who disagreed with the concept of diplomatic secrets altogether - to them, the fact that the government would keep any of it from the public was itself an act of wrongdoing, and therefore Manning was doing the public a service by bringing it to light (regardless of whether he knew what was in them).

Now, I obviously take issue with people who classify Manning as such, not because their stance on diplomatic secrets is per se wrong, but because I believe that calling someone a "whistleblower" is meaningful only if there is some unambiguous fact or universal principle that can be invoked to say why the leaked information showed some wrongdoing took place. That wasn't there with Manning, and it isn't here with Snowden.
 
2013-06-23 11:03:50 PM  

sendtodave: Biological Ali: RanDomino: Yes

What exactly would you say Snowden "blew the whistle" on? And as a followup, do you consider Manning to be a "whistleblower" as well?

He blew the whistle on the HUGE TOPIC THAT EVERYONE IS DEBATING RIGHT NOW.

You might have read about it.  I can fill you in:  Get this, the NSA is spying on, well, everybody.


Is there any meaningful debate going on?
Seems from the comments posted earlier by Feinstein, Reid and others, Congress is fine with all of this.
So is Obama.

Who is engaging them in debate?
 
2013-06-23 11:04:34 PM  

El Pachuco: Darth_Lukecash: But here's the real issue: what the NSA did was legal and approved by the congress.

So were the contents of the Pentagon Papers.


I thought the Pentagon Papers proved that the Nixon administration had lied to congress?
 
2013-06-23 11:04:34 PM  

Biological Ali: To give a sense of what I'm talking about when I say that Snowden is not a whistleblower,

 
2013-06-23 11:05:49 PM  
Biological Ali
But okay. Let's define what exactly constitutes a "whistleblower".

Blah blah blah. You're attempting to derail this to the one tiny spot of dry ground on which you might be able to stand, ignoring the surrounding ocean.
 
2013-06-23 11:06:41 PM  
Gyrfalcon:  people who applaud his whistleblowing are less than happy about his release of classified intel.

I have no problem with that, since it was necessary to blow the whistle.

I mean, if "the government is spying on you" is classified information, how exactly could someone tell everyone "Hey, the government is spying on you" without leaking classified information?

And the "here's how they do it" was necessary to prove the statement.

The ends justify the means, unless you think that this isn't something the people should know about, debate, and hopefully, get rid of.
 
2013-06-23 11:07:10 PM  

fusillade762: El Pachuco: Darth_Lukecash: But here's the real issue: what the NSA did was legal and approved by the congress.

So were the contents of the Pentagon Papers.

I thought the Pentagon Papers proved that the Nixon administration had lied to congress?


Sorry, Johnson Administration.

A 1996 article in The New York Times said that the Pentagon Papers "demonstrated, among other things, that the Lyndon Baines Johnson Administration had systematically lied, not only to the public but also to Congress
 
2013-06-23 11:09:11 PM  

Biological Ali: Biological Ali: To give a sense of what I'm talking about when I say that Snowden is not a whistleblower,


Doesn't really matter, we are at the closing the barn door stage, and the clowns running DoJ are publicly embarrassing themselves with their ham fisted handling of the situation.
 
2013-06-23 11:09:37 PM  

2wolves: The charges that are still sealed and considered secret? Those charges?


No, the charges that U.S. relayed to Hong Kong to justify his detention and return.  Nice try though,

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/06/21/194369059/feds-charge -n sa-leaker-with-spying-theft

And no, it wasn't satire.  He is being accused of spying and theft of documents.
 
2013-06-23 11:09:53 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Is there any meaningful debate going on?
Seems from the comments posted earlier by Feinstein, Reid and others, Congress is fine with all of this.
So is Obama.

Who is engaging them in debate?


Uh.  Well.  Al Gore doesn't like it?

Crap.

And it's seems plenty of people would rather pile on him than hold these representatives feet to the fire.

"I'm OK with this, you'll get over it, and this guy should have kept his mouth shut.  We shouldn't even have this debate."
 
2013-06-23 11:10:25 PM  

Biological Ali: Nabb1: No, he indiscriminately dumped high volumes of information for reasons other than whistle blowing. Manning didn't even know the contents of most of what he released. Motive counts when you are talking about whistle blowing.

Snowden didn't know what he was leaking particularly well either, given the discrepancies his statements and the actual facts.

But okay. Let's define what exactly constitutes a "whistleblower". I think there's one thing that goes without saying - to be a whistleblower, you have to bring to light information about some action that was not previously known, and that the action must be something that unequivocally should not have happened. To let either of these two aspects out of the "whistleblower" definition would be to water it down to the point of meaninglessness.

Now, "unequivocally should not have happened" itself has several aspects. It could be on the basis of the action being illegal or unconstitutional (which is what seems to be the main basis for the "whistleblower" allegations), a breach of some internal policy, a result of incompetence, or in conflict with some principle of ethics that everybody agrees on. I think I've covered just about every important base here.


By that definition he is not a whistle blower.

It wasn't illegal, unconstitutional, a breach of policy or a result of incompetence.  And since our elected officials knew and approved what is going on, it is not a principle of ethics that everybody agrees on.
 
2013-06-23 11:11:24 PM  
Oh, it's that damned Andy Borowitz again! As if there is a spokesperson this side of the Looney Bin who could say that line with a straight face. Well, maybe this side of Fox and Friends. Same thing.
 
2013-06-23 11:13:43 PM  

2wolves: The charges that are still sealed and considered secret? Those charges?


Oh, and the charges were unsealed when the retardedness of secret charges outweighed the ironiy of charging him with spying and accessing documents he wasn't given permission to see (i.e. charged with being NSA).
 
2013-06-23 11:14:16 PM  

RanDomino: Biological Ali
But okay. Let's define what exactly constitutes a "whistleblower".

Blah blah blah. You're attempting to derail this to the one tiny spot of dry ground on which you might be able to stand, ignoring the surrounding ocean.


All I'm trying to do is keep "whistleblower" from going the same way as terms like "literally" and "begging the question". If you're dead set on watering this very useful term to the point where loses all significance, I obviously can't stop you. All I can hope is that enough other people continue to use it right, because once terms like these are lost, they're very hard to replace.
 
2013-06-23 11:16:29 PM  

sendtodave: tenpoundsofcheese: Is there any meaningful debate going on?
Seems from the comments posted earlier by Feinstein, Reid and others, Congress is fine with all of this.
So is Obama.

Who is engaging them in debate?

Uh.  Well.  Al Gore doesn't like it?

Crap.

And it's seems plenty of people would rather pile on him than hold these representatives feet to the fire.


Insert picture of little girl saying "why can't we do both!"

"I'm OK with this, you'll get over it, and this guy should have kept his mouth shut.  We shouldn't even have this debate."

Here is the weird thing about it.  It seems that the debate was had by our elected officials and there was a decision.  It also seems that those that were against the decision decided not to say anything about it.  It will be interesting to see if there are any ramifications for them in the next election.
 
2013-06-23 11:17:20 PM  

Sgygus: The Emperor's New Clothes:  "But he has nothing on at all," said a little child at last.


this times a million. come on people, we all KNEW this before he said it. snowden IS that little kid. for farks sake!
 
2013-06-23 11:17:41 PM  

Biological Ali: RanDomino: Biological Ali
But okay. Let's define what exactly constitutes a "whistleblower".

Blah blah blah. You're attempting to derail this to the one tiny spot of dry ground on which you might be able to stand, ignoring the surrounding ocean.

All I'm trying to do is keep "whistleblower" from going the same way as terms like "literally" and "begging the question". If you're dead set on watering this very useful term to the point where loses all significance, I obviously can't stop you. All I can hope is that enough other people continue to use it right, because once terms like these are lost, they're very hard to replace.


Can we just use standard definitions, then, please?

Definition of WHISTLE-BLOWER
: one who reveals something covert or who informs against another <pledges to protect whistle-blowers who fear reprisals - Wall Street Journal>

Synonyms
    betrayer, canary [slang], deep throat, fink, informant, nark [British], rat, rat fink, snitch, snitcher, squealer, stoolie, stool pigeon, talebearer, tattler, tattletale, telltale, whistle-blower
 
2013-06-23 11:17:45 PM  
Biological Ali
All I'm trying to do is keep "whistleblower" from going the same way as terms like "literally" and "begging the question". If you're dead set on watering this very useful term to the point where loses all significance, I obviously can't stop you. All I can hope is that enough other people continue to use it right, because once terms like these are lost, they're very hard to replace.

And "entrapment", right?
 
2013-06-23 11:19:02 PM  

Biological Ali: RanDomino: Biological Ali
But okay. Let's define what exactly constitutes a "whistleblower".

Blah blah blah. You're attempting to derail this to the one tiny spot of dry ground on which you might be able to stand, ignoring the surrounding ocean.

All I'm trying to do is keep "whistleblower" from going the same way as terms like "literally" and "begging the question". If you're dead set on watering this very useful term to the point where loses all significance, I obviously can't stop you. All I can hope is that enough other people continue to use it right, because once terms like these are lost, they're very hard to replace.


Keep fighting the good fight.
It is worth it.
But, unfortunately, I think you will lose.
Like, literally lose.
 
2013-06-23 11:23:02 PM  
Sorry guys, I didn't realize the New Yorker posted satire.

/Subby
 
2013-06-23 11:23:49 PM  

sendtodave: Gyrfalcon:  people who applaud his whistleblowing are less than happy about his release of classified intel.

I have no problem with that, since it was necessary to blow the whistle.

I mean, if "the government is spying on you" is classified information, how exactly could someone tell everyone "Hey, the government is spying on you" without leaking classified information?

And the "here's how they do it" was necessary to prove the statement.

The ends justify the means, unless you think that this isn't something the people should know about, debate, and hopefully, get rid of.


I wasn't talking to you specifically, or referring to my own opinion, specifically, with that phrase.

Interesting how some people seem to think, however that "I have no problem with X, so nobody should have a problem with X" ought to be the end of the debate.
 
2013-06-23 11:23:52 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Is there any meaningful debate going on?


Nope...they're all tied up with REAL scandals like Benghazi and the IRS.
 
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