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(Al Jazeera)   Snowden continues his tour of freedom loving countries   (aljazeera.com) divider line 141
    More: Followup, Hong Kong, Moscow, political freedom, South China Morning Post, Dmitry Peskov  
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9357 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jun 2013 at 5:03 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Juc
2013-06-23 05:07:09 AM
23 votes:
Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.
2013-06-23 05:18:14 AM
13 votes:

digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?


Anyone that ever tried to make a difference.
2013-06-23 05:16:31 AM
8 votes:

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


Lets not forget that police officers can kill you without cause or consequence, every aspect of a majority of the populous is controlled by a small oligarchy and the political life is largely a theocracy and any reason for the US to to fly the flags of freedom and democracy is looking like a joke.
2013-06-23 08:11:19 AM
7 votes:
All he did was tell the public what its own government was doing.

Anyone who thinks this is "treason" is kind of a dumbass.
2013-06-23 05:07:33 AM
6 votes:
Well, hey, when the U.S. is acting like a communist country on this issue, you might as well make your way to a couple of 'em. Y'know, just to see how it really feels.
2013-06-23 06:12:53 AM
5 votes:
Good job US Government. You've gone so hard after him that the only logical place for him to go is a place we're most at odds with. And I'm sure they'll want to know everything he knows, and since the US government has been so hostile to him, he likely has lost any hesitation he might have had about giving up secret information to them.
2013-06-23 05:15:28 AM
5 votes:
Better than getting whacked by the FBI here.
2013-06-23 09:47:56 AM
4 votes:
Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.
2013-06-23 09:13:14 AM
4 votes:

log_jammin: Heron: nothing he said was a lie.

You say that with authority. How do you know that's true?


Because I've seen the Verizon court order. If a telecom turns over all the data they have on a specific server to any other entity, whatever rules that entity says will govern how they look at that data is irrelevant due to the simple fact that they now have all of it. Possessing it, they can do whatever the hell they want with it, whenever they want, and if there isn't someone there looking over their shoulder to police their use, then whatever they tell you about safe-guards and regulations is nothing but hot-air and window-dressing.

This isn't hard people. If they weren't doing questionably legal things with your data that they knew would piss you off, then they wouldn't keep it secret in the first place, nor go to the lengths they do to punish people who reveal their actions. If the folks in the government and the spying bureaus genuinely thought they had the Constitutional authority to carry out these programs, they'd never have tried to hide them to begin with.
2013-06-23 08:08:42 AM
4 votes:

digistil: Juc: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

what was the lie about prism?

That the US govt has direct access to corp. servers like Google and Facebook, and that a warrant isn't needed to request private information on a person.


How do you know the government doesn't have direct access to those servers. Because Mark Zuckerberg says so? Facebook has gone public now. It would be a disaster for them if Facebook users believed the government had direct access to their data. Of course Facebook and Google would have to lie about it. A warrant isn't required either. All they need is something called a National Security Letter. It used to be that it could only be used to collect information on someone who was suspected of being a foreign spy. The USA PATRIOT Act changed that. Now they can get anyone's data as long as they can show that it is needed in a terrorism investigation and it seems that they interpret it as loosely as possible. Imagine that the NSA has a created a computer algorithm that can scan thousands of documents automatically and look for language that may lead them to believe one is involved in terrorism. In order to use such a system they would need a lot of data. It wouldn't work if they only had the data of those who were already suspected of terrorism. Does it sound like possible the data of every single American might be "needed in a terrorism investigation".

Unfortunately, I don't know if that is reality because the court that approves these documents is secret and the rulings are secret. We know what is required for a warrant. You need probable cause. There have been years of case law examples we can reference to identify what is or isn't probable cause. This allows we the people to protect ourselves against unreasonable searches. We don't know what the exact criteria for these NSLs or other secret court orders. We don't know what it means that information can be obtained when it is needed in a terrorist investigation. To the NSA an investigation may be something very different from what we see on Law and Order. Investigating could mean running everyone's data through a computer to look for connections to terrorists.

You don't know that he is lying. I don't know that he is not lying. Either way the government is up to something that I don't like. How about we let this whole thing play out before anyone judges this man as a patriot or as a criminal.
2013-06-23 07:34:41 AM
4 votes:

Lsherm: I hope they kill him.  He's not a hero, he's a narcissist with an overinflated sense of self-worth who has deluded himself into thinking he's done something good.  He hasn't.  He's just been giving away US intelligence secrets because he's too stupid to do anything else.

When he dies, and it will be soon, I hope it is painful.


I'm guessing you're a Republican and hate the government but waste no time in defending it when it violates the Constitution.

Looks at profile. Yup.
2013-06-23 05:31:10 AM
4 votes:

MurphyMurphy: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Anyone that ever tried to make a difference.


I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.
2013-06-23 05:26:39 AM
4 votes:

digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?


I'd go with whistle-blower to possible magnate to guy who doesn't want to spend his life in a small cell run by the NSA for the rest of his natural life but...

This whole subject needed to be brought up. The US has a lot of things it needs to reexamine with the Patriot Act front and center. This shouldn't be like the old days when we just setup a dictator like we were hiring a manager for a store. We're still paying for that stuff...
2013-06-23 05:15:59 AM
4 votes:
He embarrassed the NSA.. not too many safe places for him left.
2013-06-23 05:09:07 AM
4 votes:
Dude!  You're undermining your entire stance!  If you go to North Korea I'm going to have to side with the government.  I don't want to side with the farking government!  So don't do that!
2013-06-23 11:04:34 AM
3 votes:

sprgrss: thamike: Mrtraveler01: What positive reforms are going to come out of this "national conversation"?

I think a lot of these people were either in grade school or just not paying attention a decade ago, when this legislation was in its infancy and was basically a blank check to all the agencies, even ones that don't have any business having it.

It's sort of like people who think terrorism is the biggest existential threat America has ever faced, and they say that with a straight face to people who grew up during the days of Mutually Assured Destruction.

I grew up in the days of MAD.  Terrorism is a bigger existential threat.  Why?  Because terrorists actually strike.  The US and the USSR were never going to have a hot war.  Neither side was or is suicidal.  Terrorists?  They are.


I did as well. I think you're wrong. And the odds were MUCH higher. At worst a terrorist might be able to take out one US city with a loose nuke. They cannot destroy the United States. They cannot end human civilization. While in the middle of a fairly known situation it was very unlikely for either side in the Cold War to ever use nukes. However, it certainly was not impossible. Think of the Cuban Missile Crisis and then instances such as Able Archer in 1983. The threat was the unknown leading to mistakes that escalate into someone taking a stupid action. What was at stake was not some "low level" threat of losing three, a few hundred, thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of Americans. What was at stake was that the US and global civilization could be completely destroyed within an hour of any major misstep between two superpowers who did not exactly always make it easy to read what the other side was up to.

Of course, in both situations it seems the greatest harm to the US it has done to itself is its overreaction to perceived threat. In the Cold War we became a bit afraid of our own shadow if someone said the world "communist" and allowed the stepping on come civil liberties and stepped away from our own ideals abroad (installing/supporting ruthless dictators for example just because they said they were on "our side"). In this new fear of terrorism we do the same to ourselves for the fear of terrorism.
2013-06-23 09:14:04 AM
3 votes:

Mrtraveler01: thamike: doczoidberg: All he did was tell the public what its own government was doing.

Anyone who thinks this is "treason" is kind of a dumbass.

Leaking secrets is technically treason.  Anyone who thinks about this emotionally is kind of a dumbass.  Anyone who wasn't aware that the NSA can look at his phone records is a particularly lost dumbass.

Were people actually shocked when this news came out?

But he's right. Leaving emotion out of this, technically he's committing treason (the best kind of treason). How can you leak government secrets and not be accused of treason is beyond me.


Because treason is specifically defined in the U.S. Constitution as providing aid and comfort to America's enemies during wartime? Whatever young Snowden's done, he hasn't done that.
2013-06-23 08:54:27 AM
3 votes:

digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?


Not to draw a comparison, but MLK Jr. got called a traitor and a liar all the damn time by people in authority. Pretty much anybody that takes a moral stand against what folks with power and money are doing gets labelled a liar and a traitor, usually not 5 minutes after calling them out. And besides, nothing he said was a lie. Regardless of what government officials -who want to keep what they're doing secret and criminalize revealing it- say, once they have the data covered by one of those court-orders, there isn't anything to stop them from looking at any of the data on it. As they say, possession is 9/10th of the law, and once someone has access to information it's foolish to believe they'll be hampered by rules no one is around to enforce.
2013-06-23 08:35:37 AM
3 votes:

jack21221: letrole: So you do have a right to privacy in a locked room that you actually own, with windows drawn and guests of your own choosing. But not on the telephone or interweb. For those sorts of communications, administrators and technicians and system owners must cooperate with you so that you can achieve what you wish to do. Again, it's a privilege that comes with paying a phone bill.

I know Trole is your surname, so this isn't directed at you, but whomever might have read your comment and agreed with this.

You are incorrect about the expectation of privacy on a telephone. That's why wiretapping laws exist.  You cannot listen in on or record somebody else's phone conversations. This extends to the government, who cannot do so without a warrant (supposedly). Since internet communications work on a very similar infrastructure to telephone communications (and various laws that originally applied to telephones were ham-handedly applied to the internet early on), it is easy to assume that the internet has the same expectation of privacy as the telephone.

It's actually a big reversal to say that there is no expectation of privacy on these media. This is the argument that many non-Troles are actually making, and it's pretty scary.

I still maintain that Snowden is a hero. He brought an important issue to light (we know it's important because it's the biggest topic in national debate right now) that the government was concealing from us. Obama said that this would be a transparent administration. Meanwhile, he's overseeing a really invasive secretsurveillance system.  The American people had a right to know such a thing exists, even if we didn't get all the details.

Snowden corrected a wrong done by the government at great personal expense. He will never see his home again. His old life is gone. That's a huge sacrifice to give the American people the ability to debate and decide how much privacy we're willing to give up, rather than having the government decide for us.


You should really read the USA PATRIOT act. The following summaries are directly from Ethics in Information Technology by George W. Reynolds:

Section 206 FISA roving wiretaps: "Expands FISA to permit "roving wiretap" authority, which allows the FBI to intercept any communications to or by an intelligence target without specifying the telephone line, computer, or other facility to be monitored."

Section 215 FISA access to tangible items: Permits the FBI to compel production of any record or item without showing probable cause; people served with a search warrant issued under FISA rules may not disclose, under penalty of law, the existence of the warrant or the fact that records were provided to the government.

Section 505 Authorizes use of National Security letters: Authorizes the attorney general or delegate to compel holders of your personal records to turn them over to the government simply by writing an NSL, which is not subject to judicial oversight or review. NSLs can be used against anyone, including U.S. citizens, even if they are not suspected of espionage or criminal activity.


Now keep in mind that before this patriotic act your privacy was protected by the 4th amendment, The Right to Financial Privacy Act of 1978, The Communications Act of 1934, The Wiretap Act, The Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986, and others. Almost a century of legislation passed to protect your civil liberties was undone by a single idea: terrorism. It seems as if all the government has to do to be able to justify violating your rights is to mention that word. Because terrorism is so evil, so deadly that we should all just lock ourselves in a prison to protect ourselves from it.
2013-06-23 08:29:56 AM
3 votes:

jack21221: thamike: Anyone who wasn't aware that the NSA can look at his phone records is a particularly lost dumbass.

This was not public knowledge, which is why it's a big deal that he leaked it in the first place. Additionally, it was a surprise to many that there was a rubber-stamp court (99.96% granted) which would allow anybody's phone and email CONTENT to be collected (not just metadata) on the flimsiest of evidence. Or, that such decisions could be made simply on the whim of an analyst, even without the court (which would have approved it anyway).

If everybody knew that the NSA was collecting everybody's phone records in addition to all of this other stuff, then he didn't leak anything, now did he? And if people didn't know this stuff, how are they "lost dumbasses?"

Either he didn't leak anything important, or people are not dumbasses. You can't have both.


You can have both.  He leaked specific procedure.  And people are dumbasses for being shocked an outraged about the dinnerbell media frenzy phone sh*t that I--not being privy to secrets nor particularly feverish in my interest of the topic--have known about for a decade.

You want to know what really scares me about the NSA?  That they give security clearance to high school dropouts who look, act, speak, and think like high school dropouts.
2013-06-23 08:25:00 AM
3 votes:

thamike: Anyone who wasn't aware that the NSA can look at his phone records is a particularly lost dumbass.


This was not public knowledge, which is why it's a big deal that he leaked it in the first place. Additionally, it was a surprise to many that there was a rubber-stamp court (99.96% granted) which would allow anybody's phone and email CONTENT to be collected (not just metadata) on the flimsiest of evidence. Or, that such decisions could be made simply on the whim of an analyst, even without the court (which would have approved it anyway).

If everybody knew that the NSA was collecting everybody's phone records in addition to all of this other stuff, then he didn't leak anything, now did he? And if people didn't know this stuff, how are they "lost dumbasses?"

Either he didn't leak anything important, or people are not dumbasses. You can't have both.
2013-06-23 08:04:51 AM
3 votes:
Americans have the unquestioned right to travel anywhere because America is the freest, best nation ever!!!

Except for anyone we call a traitor. Also Cuba is strictly off-limits. Only traitors go there.

Our freedom is what makes us free not to go to traitor countries.
2013-06-23 07:54:18 AM
3 votes:

letrole: So you do have a right to privacy in a locked room that you actually own, with windows drawn and guests of your own choosing. But not on the telephone or interweb. For those sorts of communications, administrators and technicians and system owners must cooperate with you so that you can achieve what you wish to do. Again, it's a privilege that comes with paying a phone bill.


I know Trole is your surname, so this isn't directed at you, but whomever might have read your comment and agreed with this.

You are incorrect about the expectation of privacy on a telephone. That's why wiretapping laws exist.  You cannot listen in on or record somebody else's phone conversations. This extends to the government, who cannot do so without a warrant (supposedly). Since internet communications work on a very similar infrastructure to telephone communications (and various laws that originally applied to telephones were ham-handedly applied to the internet early on), it is easy to assume that the internet has the same expectation of privacy as the telephone.

It's actually a big reversal to say that there is no expectation of privacy on these media. This is the argument that many non-Troles are actually making, and it's pretty scary.

I still maintain that Snowden is a hero. He brought an important issue to light (we know it's important because it's the biggest topic in national debate right now) that the government was concealing from us. Obama said that this would be a transparent administration. Meanwhile, he's overseeing a really invasive secretsurveillance system.  The American people had a right to know such a thing exists, even if we didn't get all the details.

Snowden corrected a wrong done by the government at great personal expense. He will never see his home again. His old life is gone. That's a huge sacrifice to give the American people the ability to debate and decide how much privacy we're willing to give up, rather than having the government decide for us.
2013-06-23 07:15:14 AM
3 votes:

Alphax: He embarrassed the NSA.. not too many safe places for him left.


The government's best move at this point is to let him go, and they know it. They don't get anything other than the visceral satisfaction of punishing him if they get him back here, and in return this stays in the news cycle, along with protests and maybe even rioting, indefinitely. If they just let him go to Iceland or wherever, they can wait a few weeks until the next major news maker and the American people will forget all about the NSA. It is conceivable that they overchaged him on purpose with espionage instead of just theft in order to provoke China into not extraditing him.
2013-06-23 06:16:26 AM
3 votes:

robohobo: So, Farkers, what's your balance? What are you willing to give up? How far are you willing to bend over in the name of 'security'?


0% security, 100% privacy.

Close all foreign bases and execute (after fair trials, of course) anybody who, while in the employ of the government or a contractor, violated any person's human rights in another country*, and the terrorism threat vanishes.

* - This would include a lot of the coverts ops guys from the CIA and almost all of the covert ops guys from the DoD.
2013-06-23 05:57:23 AM
3 votes:
I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people."


"He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."
2013-06-23 05:39:54 AM
3 votes:
Anyone who kicks the US Gov in the balls is a hero. Hopefully he can settle in Iceland, banging weird Icelandic girls.
2013-06-23 05:35:39 AM
3 votes:

Juc: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

what was the lie about prism?


Whatever Fox News said.
2013-06-23 05:08:35 AM
3 votes:
I predict after he hands over US intel sources to Russia, Pootie Poot offers him up to the US in exchange for something like staying out of Syria or the re-hiring of Paula Deen on the Food Network.
2013-06-23 12:50:35 PM
2 votes:

AndreMA: Don't Troll Me Bro!: AndreMA: I periodically clean out my "ignore" list.
This appears to be an error.
I tried that once.  First thread I jumped into was a Martin/Zimmerman thread.  That list got repopulated pretty quickly.
Some threads bring out the loons (and I'm sure that some will see me as one of them).
I do wish, though, that there was the ability to suspend the ignore function on a temporary per-thread basis. Some folks have a tendency to threadshiat on particular subjects while still having interesting things to say on others. (Again, others no doubt have that view of me)


I don't get the reason for ignore lists, it seems like self-censoring. Reading the posts of those I consider idiots is part of the fun of a forum like this, isn't it? Also, it's always good to know what the "enemy" is up to.
2013-06-23 12:26:44 PM
2 votes:

sprgrss: I grew up in the days of MAD.  Terrorism is a bigger existential threat.  Why?  Because terrorists actually strike.  The US and the USSR were never going to have a hot war.  Neither side was or is suicidal.  Terrorists?  They are.


It's easy to sit here and say in retrospect that the cold war was nothing because the US and the USSR never lobbed nukes at each other, but the consequences of that happening would have been devastating to the whole world, not just those 2 countries.

Terrorists?  Yeah, they do actually strike, but most of the time it's pretty lame in the overall scheme of things.  It's probably little consolation if you or someone close to you is killed in a terrorist attack, but the casualty figures are pretty darned small.

I'm not scared of terrorism.  I'm not scared of nutjobs who arm themselves with "assault weapons" and go on shooting sprees.  I'm more likely to die in a car accident and I'm not particularly scared that will happen.  I do take reasonable precautions.  I wear a seat belt.  My car is equipped with air bags.  I don't drive like a maniac.  Those are reasonable precautions.  I don't confine myself in my own home and have everything delivered for fear of getting in a car accident.  That would be unreasonable.

Probably one of the reasons the US and USSR never went to war is because the leaders of both countries remembered WWII. According to Wikipedia, the US lost 418,500 lives but the Soviet Union lost between 22 and 30 million people.  China lost between 10 and 20 million people.  The total loss of life is somewhere between 60 and 85 million.

The numbers are staggering.  It's not really that surprising that we haven't wanted to repeat that since then and when I say "we" I don't just mean the US.  I mean everyone in the world.

Terrorism barely registers in the grand scheme of deaths due to other than natural causes.
2013-06-23 12:10:59 PM
2 votes:
Not to try to push this discussion in a different direction(let's face it, the shiat-tossing on both sides is entertaining), but there's one question nobody seems to have asked yet.  All this data the government is pulling that according to some represents a massive intrusion into personal privacy is coming from corporate servers.  So, apparently you're all fine with Google, AT&T, Verizon, etc having and using this data with oversight only from shareholders, yet it's full-on panic mode when the government gets its hands on this data even though there is, at least ostensibly, some restraint and oversight.  Google watching your email for economic advantage?  All good.  NSA watching your emails because some people are afraid of terrorists?  INVASION OF PRIVACY!111!

We now return you to the regularly scheduled Sunday morning babble-fest.

Cheers.
2013-06-23 11:44:03 AM
2 votes:
Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

img.fark.net
2013-06-23 10:59:32 AM
2 votes:

sprgrss: I grew up in the days of MAD. Terrorism is a bigger existential threat. Why? Because terrorists actually strike. The US and the USSR were never going to have a hot war. Neither side was or is suicidal. Terrorists? They are.


That's not a bigger existential threat then the instantaneous destruction of the world as we know it and the deaths of almost everybody on it.  it might be more real to you because you've seen it happen, but it's simply not a bigger existential threat. MAD was what kept it from happening, yes, but that was a tenuous situation.  There was a real threat of nuclear war.  A couple of thousand screaming Arabs don't scare me. Well, unless they have a viable nuclear arsenal.
2013-06-23 10:30:54 AM
2 votes:

Misconduc: Traitor is a traitor, doesn't matter where he stops he's eating a bullet.




Then shoot down the plane carrying him and call it done.
You know they've done worse things for less provocation.

The problem with calling people a traitor is it implies they gave aid to the enemy.
What he did was spill the beans on things the administration then claims were widely known, legal and inconsequential.
So who's the enemy? China? Russia? The American people? All the terrorists this program fails to catch?

What he did was steal data from his employer (the extent of which we still don't know), but why they want him is he embarrassed a bunch of politicians.
You don't get a fair or speedy trial for that crime. You get thrown in a hole and forgotten until a few election cycles have passed.

This is political now. If he catches a missile along his merry way then it becomes an international shiat storm. That might be a price a politician is willing to pay, but I'd prefer WWIII not get a kick start because our leaders got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

This surveillance program was wrong and ineffective. The right thing to do would be to burn it to the ground, admit we were wrong, and let this guy fade into obscurity.
2013-06-23 09:26:18 AM
2 votes:
Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it, "all men are created equal except negroes." When the Know-nothings get control, it will read, "all men are created equal except negroes and foreigners and Catholics." When it comes to this, I shall prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty--to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.

Abraham Lincoln
2013-06-23 09:01:32 AM
2 votes:

doczoidberg: All he did was tell the public what its own government was doing.

Anyone who thinks this is "treason" is kind of a dumbass.


Treason is a very specific charge in this country, defined in our constitution.

And this doesn't even come close. They're not even charging him with espionage.
2013-06-23 08:15:51 AM
2 votes:
Snowden has far more to fear from the global intel community then he does from the US government. He isnt safe anywhere. You do not fark people like that over.
2013-06-23 08:15:39 AM
2 votes:

jack21221: thamike:
Nothing he has done has been out of necessity.

Necessity for his own safety and freedom. Sure, he COULD have just stayed in the US and been tortured like Manning was... but if I were in that position, I'd feel it was a necessity to flee.


Nothing he has done has been out of necessity, including the stuff he thinks is necessary now.  He committed a crime he thought would make him mini-Julian Assange, and it did.  We won't remember this f*cker's name in six months.  There is no book deal at the end of this, not because of the crime, but because his life story will bore you to tears. Some people have their own lucrative reality shows telling the world how moronic they are, and then there's this bozo.
2013-06-23 07:57:23 AM
2 votes:

lokis_mentor: RT/ITASS has him going to Venezuela ultimately after stop in Cuba.


Because Venezuela has no extradition with the United States.

Take your pick:

img.fark.net

or

img.fark.net
2013-06-23 07:21:43 AM
2 votes:
I bet Putin wants to personally shake his hand. And then torture him into giving away more secrets.
2013-06-23 07:00:01 AM
2 votes:
Two words, americans

Extraordinary Rendition

freedom loving? yeah, right
2013-06-23 06:57:40 AM
2 votes:

sendtodave: log_jammin: I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

"We're a nation of laws", so prosecute Edward Snowden for revealing possibly unconstitutional and illegal spying programs. -- John Thune, Senate Republican Conference Chair


So Thune admits that the spying was both unconstitutional and illegal? Great!


At this point it appears as though (a) billions of dollars are being spent to (b) listen in to everybody in the US of A (c) without probable cause or warrant (d) in order to support efforts to (e) deter a threat that has (e.1.) lower probability of harming you or me than (e.2.) the probability of being hurt by a drunk driver.

Maybe I'm confused here, but it seems that if drunk drivers are a greater direct and immediate threat to us on a daily basis than terrorists, there should be a proportional amount of funding and intrusion in order to prevent death by drunk rednecks in pickups.

The whole *** thing is nothing more than smoke and mirrors to keep you and me from going all revolutionary against the corporate oligarchy. That's the only reason I can think of that makes any sense. The sad thing is that it is now institutionalized into a bureaucracy involving government, military, and corporate sectors, so it is not going to go away. If anything, it is going to get bigger and bigger and more and more intrusive and controlling. (see Max Weber).

Ladies and gentlemen, we are flucked.
2013-06-23 06:19:39 AM
2 votes:
Even though Russia may not sound like the sort of place you want to cool your heels its actually probably the best place for Snowden to cool his heels.

Last I checked they dont have extradition treaty with US, also if the CIA was sent after him for embarassing the NSA he would have whatever the Ruskies call the post communism KGB to protect him, And the US isnt gonna invade Russia under some other pretense just to get him.

Learn to enjoy the Vodak and plenty of skinny women.
2013-06-23 06:15:50 AM
2 votes:

justoneznot: a place we're most at odds with


PROTIP: The cold war ended a few years ago. Americans are only scared of commies at home. abroad, it's the scary brown men in turbans that are the new threat.
2013-06-23 06:08:42 AM
2 votes:

robohobo: log_jammin: I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people."


"He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."

From your linked article:

"As you heard the president say on Friday, he believes that we must strike a balance between our security interests and our desire for privacy. He made clear that you cannot have 100 percent security and 100 percent privacy. And, thus, we need to find that balance," White House press secretary Jay Carney said Tuesday.

So, Farkers, what's your balance? What are you willing to give up? How far are you willing to bend over in the name of 'security'?


I don't want to sound apologist, but what evidence is there that these programs have been used for anything approaching the level of what Hoover's FBI was doing? Weren't those overtly political abuses what led to the FISA system now employed? I am uncomfortable with the potential for abuse in these programs but what people voluntarily give up to Facebook or mylife or ancestry.com is probably more than you could find on any NSA database.
2013-06-23 06:02:54 AM
2 votes:
There are a lot of places I'd go if I was fleeing American persecution and possible incarceration.

Into the loving arms of former KGB agent Vladimir Putin would not be one of them
2013-06-23 05:54:01 AM
2 votes:

quatchi: I'm thinking that he's thinking that the more publicity he attracts not just in the US but globally the larger his chances of survival increase and also that by doing it this way at the very least it keeps the story in heavy rotation in the notoriously fickle corporate media with it's "Squirrel? Where?!" cycles.


40 years ago this would have been THE story.

Now?

"Meh, I always figured they could do this, what with modern technology being what it is.  Also, with modern technology being what it is, I don't really care about any outrage for more than a couple days, if at all."
2013-06-23 05:39:36 AM
2 votes:

Juc: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

what was the lie about prism?


He said that it was un-American.  That is impossible on its face, since by definition anything that the American government does is American, backed by the consent of the governed.

Anything that calls the legitimacy of the government into question, however, IS un-America.  Like him.
2013-06-23 05:15:10 AM
2 votes:

digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?


Benedict Arnold?

/he was a better general than Washington
2013-06-23 05:13:08 AM
2 votes:
Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?
2013-06-23 05:09:26 AM
2 votes:

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


Both sides are bad
2013-06-23 05:07:21 AM
2 votes:
a licky boom boom down
2013-06-24 01:14:22 AM
1 votes:

sendtodave: Ricardo Klement: One cannot have it both ways. Either his revelations matter, in which case, his revealing that information to the Russians makes him a dick, or his revelations are irrelevant, in which case, what's the big deal?

That goes both ways:  How is it that he he a traitor who stole state secrets, but didn't tell us anything we didn't already know?


He DID tell us something we didn't know.  The TS slides were things we didn't know.  I was merely pointing out the absurdity of, "Tell us one thing he told them they verifiably didn't know."  He is a traitor who released secrets the people of the United States did not want other countries to know.  That's in addition to whatever he told us about what's going on here.
2013-06-24 12:52:15 AM
1 votes:

Ricardo Klement: whidbey: Ricardo Klement: whidbey: Ricardo Klement: Yeah it is - the government is never far from the process.

"Never far" is a relative term.

They do regular security audits and they're not easy.

Policing a contractor, not itself. There should be NO contracting when it comes to military matters. That's the big problem we're having.

I'm not sure I'm seeing how the contracting is the issue.

It's really not rocket science:

See; Halliburon, Blackwater. By outsourcing its operations, the US government ultimately is off the hook for any abuses of power.

Uh-huh.

You know, a reasonable look at this stuff and one might detect a slight difference between a contractor overseas and a contractor in the U.S.  For example, it's a lot harder to run child prostitutes in the U.S. than it is in, say, Bosnia.  Since we're talking about a guy who was a working stiff in the U.S., let's keep the subject limited to the abuses here.


I would still prefer the NSA be its own department accountable to none other than its own department.

The idea of "private spying contractors" is frankly offensive, and counter to the concept of a representative democracy.
2013-06-23 09:41:36 PM
1 votes:
Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.


Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.
2013-06-23 09:25:31 PM
1 votes:

WorldCitizen: mikemil828: That China let him leave should tell you everything you need to know about Snowden's credibility, if he was really a valid source of info, he would've disappeared on the way to the airport, it would've been risk-free for the Chinese to do so as they would have blamed Obama and all the internet would have bought it like Fry buys phones. That they let him go shows that even the Chinese know he is full of shiat.

But he wasn't in mainland China, he was in Hong Kong. The PRC has their own reasons for not wanting to appear to openly violate the rule of law in Hong Kong. They don't want to stir up too much trouble for themselves there, and for Taiwan, they have to show that, "hey, if you come join the party like Hong Kong, we'll leave you alone internally, we promise!".  Beijing must tread carefully in Hong Kong, and their own internal politics comes before some US issue.


You seem to have missed the second part of my statement, the PRC wouldn't need to appear to openly violate the rule of law in Hong Kong, as everyone would assume the American government did it, like I said, risk-free.
2013-06-23 09:08:04 PM
1 votes:

Marine1: This... is insanely embarrassing.

Not for the US government, for the American people. The man did nothing wrong.


You mean his outing the details of trying to hack Medvedev's phone was ok?
2013-06-23 07:34:00 PM
1 votes:

Ricardo Klement: Yeah it is - the government is never far from the process.


"Never far" is a relative term.

They do regular security audits and they're not easy.

Policing a contractor, not itself. There should be NO contracting when it comes to military matters. That's the big problem we're having.
2013-06-23 07:00:19 PM
1 votes:
Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.
2013-06-23 06:12:02 PM
1 votes:

relcec: Biological Ali: sendtodave: I cannot see any excuse for what the government is doing in the name of security. My bias, actually, says that this would make sense if it happened under Bush, that it is happening now shakes my faith in Democrats holding the moral high ground.

I mean, I'll probably still vote for them due to social wedge issues. But that's the only difference I'm seeing at this point.

As someone said in the earlier threads - with Bush the controversy was over warrantless wiretaps, while under Obama the "controversy" is over warrantful non-wiretaps. There's plenty of difference even on this issue if you're curious enough to look for it.


they are casting a dragnet across anything and everything, and then have given themselves permission to keep and study all those *inadvertent* communications of Americans they come across (say when querying google for everything record they have for the past 3 months  -fark, who would have thought americans used google?) that can be described as evidence of criminality or even information about a threat of harm or property. And this is the farking Army doing it.

/the issue with bush was the trolling of our private communications (just like obama is doing) with noin contravention of the 4th amendment (just like obama is doing).
if you can't see the problem here you are so blinded by your partisanship you are a threat to everything good this country ever stood for.

The top secret rules that allow NSA to use US data without a warrantFisa court submissions show broad scope of procedures governing NSA's surveillance of Americans' communication
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/20/fisa-court-nsa-without-w ar rant


everybody's a traitor really

if you're against the NSA you're a traitor because you're threatening the safety of the country

if you support the NSA you're a traitor because you're threatening the freedoms of the country
2013-06-23 05:35:13 PM
1 votes:

Biological Ali: sendtodave: I cannot see any excuse for what the government is doing in the name of security. My bias, actually, says that this would make sense if it happened under Bush, that it is happening now shakes my faith in Democrats holding the moral high ground.

I mean, I'll probably still vote for them due to social wedge issues. But that's the only difference I'm seeing at this point.

As someone said in the earlier threads - with Bush the controversy was over warrantless wiretaps, while under Obama the "controversy" is over warrantful non-wiretaps. There's plenty of difference even on this issue if you're curious enough to look for it.



they are casting a dragnet across anything and everything, and then have given themselves permission to keep and study all those *inadvertent* communications of Americans they come across (say when querying google for everything record they have for the past 3 months  -fark, who would have thought americans used google?) that can be described as evidence of criminality or even information about a threat of harm or property. And this is the farking Army doing it.

/the issue with bush was the trolling of our private communications (just like obama is doing) with noin contravention of the 4th amendment (just like obama is doing).
if you can't see the problem here you are so blinded by your partisanship you are a threat to everything good this country ever stood for.

The top secret rules that allow NSA to use US data without a warrantFisa court submissions show broad scope of procedures governing NSA's surveillance of Americans' communication
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/20/fisa-court-nsa-without-w ar rant
2013-06-23 02:31:48 PM
1 votes:

sprgrss: WorldCitizen: sprgrss

We don't have to play the "what might've happened" game.  We know what happened.  There was no hot war between the Soviets and the United States.  Terrorists have attacked and will continue to attack.  That's why terrorism is a real existential threat.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but the fear of, and over-reaction to, terrorism are about as close as the US gets to an existential threat right now.  Terrorism itself, not so much.

Cheers.
2013-06-23 02:24:16 PM
1 votes:

sprgrss: WorldCitizen: sprgrss

We don't have to play the "what might've happened" game.  We know what happened.  There was no hot war between the Soviets and the United States.  Terrorists have attacked and will continue to attack.  That's why terrorism is a real existential threat.


Terrorism is not a threat to the existence of the United States.
2013-06-23 02:15:53 PM
1 votes:

sendtodave: Dwight_Yeast: I'm reminded of Dorothy Parker's use of the word "horticulture": You can lead a whore to culture,but you can't make her think. Likewise, you can tell the American people that the government is monitoring their phone calls and internet usage, but until it interrupts Dancing with the Stars, it's not actually news.

But isn't it a good thing that it is new now?

That they are paying attention, and are a bit upset over it?

Is  the problem that they are finally upset over it when it is politically inconvenient?


I think the problem is that nothing is being done to push any reforms concerning the actions of the NSA.

I mean it's fine to get people outraged about this but if nothing is going to be done to change what is going on, then this is all just a waste of time.
2013-06-23 01:13:49 PM
1 votes:

Lsherm: I hope they kill him.  He's not a hero, he's a narcissist with an overinflated sense of self-worth who has deluded himself into thinking he's done something good.  He hasn't.  He's just been giving away US intelligence secrets because he's too stupid to do anything else.

When he dies, and it will be soon, I hope it is painful.


Have a big bowl of "go fark yourself" for breakfast this morning. Don't worry about paying for it. It's on me.
2013-06-23 12:25:23 PM
1 votes:

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


The President also declared that he can assassinate US citizens with no due process. The government announced they were going to investigate every journalist, they had the site where you can rat on your neighbors, the IRS now has complete control over your medical records and history and can target you for political affiliations.

We haven't publicly ran over college students in tanks yet, but give us 3 years.
2013-06-23 12:24:11 PM
1 votes:
He's a Promethean John Galt Knowledge Worker type selling his knowledge to the highest bidder.  Why do you hate Capitalism, subby?
2013-06-23 12:22:53 PM
1 votes:

skullkrusher: AndreMA: skullkrusher: You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad

Do you really think the Russians and Chinese weren't already aware that we were spying on them? Can you point to any classified methods or sources that Snowden revealed that were plausibly secret?

(That the local CIA station is in the embassy might be "classified", but please be serious.)

of course they assumed. And, as I said, there was no public indication that we were.  Therefore, diplomatic relations behaved as such. We maintained our ability to deny it, just as they do. Now we can't. They still can.


I think they probably did a little more than "assumed" -- the concept of counter-intelligence is not foreign to them. The only "ability to deny" amounted to an ability to lie to the public. I see no change except that the US electorate is a bit better informed.
2013-06-23 12:21:56 PM
1 votes:
This guy just gets more awesome by the minute! Not only has he performed a service to humanity for riling up this shiat storm, he did it while trolling both the left and the right in US gov't and every boot licking douche in America.

PLUS, he's clearly set himself up to be balls deep in at least half of Pussy Riot by the end of the year!! I really really hope he doesn't get droned, cause this is looking to be a great and satisfying long troll!
2013-06-23 12:19:39 PM
1 votes:

AndreMA: I periodically clean out my "ignore" list.

This appears to be an error.


I tried that once.  First thread I jumped into was a Martin/Zimmerman thread.  That list got repopulated pretty quickly.
2013-06-23 12:15:41 PM
1 votes:

Evil High Priest: Biological Ali: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.

Right, because we were this close to addressing this problem before Snowden did his thing. Darn him!


And after Snowden did his thing look at how close we are to making any significant changes as far as spying on people is concerned!
2013-06-23 11:34:07 AM
1 votes:

DrPainMD: robohobo: So, Farkers, what's your balance? What are you willing to give up? How far are you willing to bend over in the name of 'security'?

0% security, 100% privacy.

Close all foreign bases and execute (after fair trials, of course) anybody who, while in the employ of the government or a contractor, violated any person's human rights in another country*, and the terrorism threat vanishes.

* - This would include a lot of the coverts ops guys from the CIA and almost all of the covert ops guys from the DoD.


http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=3005#comic">http:/ /www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=3005#comic
2013-06-23 11:29:34 AM
1 votes:
Where is he?


img.fark.net

/This traitor is no champion of the left as some are making him out to be
2013-06-23 11:20:51 AM
1 votes:

maram500: Slaxl: digistil: MurphyMurphy: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Anyone that ever tried to make a difference.

I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

I sorta stopped following it, so I missed that, and I can't google at the moment because I'm wearing a towel. What intel did he give to the Chinese military, and what sources of intel did he give up?

What, exactly, is stopping you from Googling in said towel?


Shhhh... I'm enjoying the visual, don't ruin it.
2013-06-23 11:16:47 AM
1 votes:
And I love the cries of 'Stasi' from kids who wouldn't know the Stasi if they were dragged out of their house at night, beaten within an inch of their lives, and then left to rot in a cell for a month.
2013-06-23 11:14:04 AM
1 votes:

Anti_illuminati: National conversation? You mean the media failing to do any kind of actual analysis and armchair political activists like the teenagers over on Reddit whining about privacy, but at the same time posting random pics of creepos and fat people they take in public? This is no more a public issue than Kanye naming his baby North West. It is not smug to be privy to the same information that's been happening in the country for decades, nor the reaction the country takes. I'm sure the ones who are actually not surprised about this situation are the ones  actually doing something about it.


Barack Obama RAND PAUL will fix it if I just keep saying bad things about the government from the comfort of my computer chair!
2013-06-23 10:55:56 AM
1 votes:

yagottabefarkinkiddinme: I can't even have phone sex with my wife without a NSA 3-way. Fark that noise.


Yes.  You're SO interesting that the NSA is listening to your phone conversations.
2013-06-23 10:53:13 AM
1 votes:

Dwight_Yeast: This guy isn't even as interesting as Bobby Fischer, and he spent a decade "hiding" in Iceland


I actually saw him several times in the downtown area. Always looked a little crazy.
2013-06-23 10:50:23 AM
1 votes:

log_jammin: AndreMA: Also careful that his flights don't have a chance of passing through airspace (US or international) controlled by US ATC.

because?


Apparently the chuckleheads here think that we'd use US air power to force down a commerical jet to extract someone we'd like to arrest.

Given that we've let actual fugutives from justice live abroad for decades, I don't see that happening.  This guy isn't even as interesting as Bobby Fischer, and he spent a decade "hiding" in Iceland.
2013-06-23 10:49:32 AM
1 votes:
We have some smug Mf'er here on Fark. Just because you feel it is ok to spy on everything because you are ok with it does not make it right...or the American thing to do. It's sneaky shiat. It undermines my trust in our government. It undermines our freedom. It screams a lack of integrity to do the right thing when we cannot see behind the veil of secrecy. I can't even have phone sex with my wife without a NSA 3-way. Fark that noise.
2013-06-23 10:45:01 AM
1 votes:

MurphyMurphy: Wherever he goes, Snowden's going to have to be very careful where he picks up his connecting flights.


Also careful that his flights don't have a chance of passing through airspace (US or international) controlled by US ATC.
2013-06-23 10:39:46 AM
1 votes:
If there was evidence that the NSA was acting as an eavesdropper for hire for insider trading, or selling info to corporations about their adversaries, or spying on politicians for their political opponents, then I would be fairly incensed.  The main part about this that I find problematic is that not only is the NSA outsourcing surveillance, they're outsourcing it to the lowest common denominator.
2013-06-23 10:37:22 AM
1 votes:

Biological Ali: The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation"


we all mock the media for the shiatty job it does with holding politicians feet to the fire, how they are only after scandal and ratings, and their celebrity worship....but then they report on something that makes half the population go "I KNEW IT!" and they then forget about every single on of those criticisms and follow along because it's exactly what they wanted to hear.
2013-06-23 10:21:14 AM
1 votes:

thamike: Satanic_Hamster: Who the hell would hire this guy?

[img.fark.net image 600x400]


See, that would be more effective if I knew who that was.
2013-06-23 10:15:00 AM
1 votes:

kimmygibblershomework: You do know that everyone does that, right? It is big boy pants for countries. We also let people marry cactii and collect unemployment for injured ankles.
/Can't wait to read this guy's obituary
//Planeload of wikileaks lawyers jokes after this....


Speaking of collecting unemployment...  That's another thing I've been wondering.  What the hell is this dumbass' plan?  Does he just plan on living on the charity of others the rest of his life?  Who the hell would hire this guy?
2013-06-23 10:08:07 AM
1 votes:

letrole: Chelsea Clinton Is Carrot Tops Lost Twin:
redacted list of terms that mark the poster as a clueless loon

What are you bufoons trying to accomplish with this shiat? Are you going to crash the system? Tie up human resources with a decoy post that some analyst will evidently have to go read since it contains magic words? Prove the 31337 config of your seven proxies?


1.  Assert my rights.

2.  Define "crash the system".  What system are you referring to?

3.  Abso-farking-lutely.

4.  No proxies here.  If Obama and the rest of the congress traitors want to come and get me; they can have at it.

www.punjabigraphics.com
2013-06-23 10:06:20 AM
1 votes:

Mrtraveler01: What positive reforms are going to come out of this "national conversation"?


I think a lot of these people were either in grade school or just not paying attention a decade ago, when this legislation was in its infancy and was basically a blank check to all the agencies, even ones that don't have any business having it.

It's sort of like people who think terrorism is the biggest existential threat America has ever faced, and they say that with a straight face to people who grew up during the days of Mutually Assured Destruction.
2013-06-23 10:05:30 AM
1 votes:

wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.


National conversation? You mean the media failing to do any kind of actual analysis and armchair political activists like the teenagers over on Reddit whining about privacy, but at the same time posting random pics of creepos and fat people they take in public? This is no more a public issue than Kanye naming his baby North West. It is not smug to be privy to the same information that's been happening in the country for decades, nor the reaction the country takes. I'm sure the ones who are actually not surprised about this situation are the ones  actually doing something about it.
2013-06-23 10:01:11 AM
1 votes:

Andromeda: Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with? If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.


I suspect because he was a dumbass.
2013-06-23 10:00:01 AM
1 votes:

Biological Ali: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.


Basically this.

Neither side is talking about serious reforms and the only thing that's resulted from this is that people's hyperbole has been ratcheted up a notch.

What positive reforms are going to come out of this "national conversation"?
2013-06-23 09:59:49 AM
1 votes:
When releasing US Government secrets for the "good of Americans", it's kinda hurts your creditability when you hide out in places like China and Russia, two countries with a long history of trying to obtain US Government secrets and have the deep pockets to pay off people in your position to get them.
2013-06-23 09:58:46 AM
1 votes:

Biological Ali: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.


It's happening with increasing regularity--the media outlets start barking out headlines, to which I react with "duh.  there has to be more to this" only to find out that there's even less to this.
2013-06-23 09:54:46 AM
1 votes:

wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.


The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.
2013-06-23 09:51:48 AM
1 votes:

Mrtraveler01: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

And what is going to be done to change this?


PRISM will be shuttered.  In ten years, some flunkie will tell us all about SRIMP.
2013-06-23 09:42:44 AM
1 votes:
It's great how this whole scandal is focusing entirely on Snowden himself and the program when it's overlooking another big factor:

WE'RE farkING OUTSOURCING INTELLIGENCE.

PMCs are bad enough, but now we're not just outsourcing... basically every job the military does except getting shot. We're outsourcing handling the farking secrets that are supposed to keep this country safe. How is this acceptable? How far have we fallen and how much are we lurching towards a Blade Runner/Shadowrun future by basically turning corporations in the organizations that "protect" us in every way.
2013-06-23 09:41:12 AM
1 votes:

IlGreven: Well, hey, when the U.S. is acting like a communist country on this issue, you might as well make your way to a couple of 'em. Y'know, just to see how it really feels.


Huh? There are no true Communist countries anymore... if ever.
2013-06-23 09:37:33 AM
1 votes:

letrole: All this privacy fetish rubbish is certainly amusing.

If you leave your front door, walk down the street, get a taxi, so on and so forth, and this chain of events is recorded on CCTV tapes for playback-- it's simply not an invasion of your privacy.

If you communicate on an infrastructure that you neither built, own, nor maintain, then anything you transmit can likewise be stored -- and subject to the same analysis.

Expectations of privacy are very much in line with Rights.

You have the right to do whatever you can conceive and achieve solely through your own efforts. But, if someone is required or compelled or obligated to provide assistance, then that thing you wish to do is not a right. It is rather a *privilege*.

So you do have a right to privacy in a locked room that you actually own, with windows drawn and guests of your own choosing. But not on the telephone or interweb. For those sorts of communications, administrators and technicians and system owners must cooperate with you so that you can achieve what you wish to do. Again, it's a privilege that comes with paying a phone bill.


Agreed to a point. As an grizzled oldster, I see the facebook/twitter people to whom oversharing is a meaningless word worrying government warrantless wiretapping. Facebook is continually jumping through hoops to provide finer and finer granularity on what people can publish and exactly how much.

Try applying for a job related to DoD work nowadays, even if unclassified. Not everyone can work at Google or Apple.
2013-06-23 09:25:13 AM
1 votes:
To people who are saying he's guilty of treason, here is the definition of treason under US law:

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

He's not guilty of treason, and people who are saying he is are ignorant of the law. Espionage he may be guilty of, but not treason, not under US law.
2013-06-23 09:08:36 AM
1 votes:
img.fark.net
2013-06-23 09:02:07 AM
1 votes:

Andromeda: quatchi: "Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...

Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with?  If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.


It's pretty obvious. He wanted to be somewhere that had geo-political reasons to protect a person who'd pissed off US elites, and also had the umph to do so successfully. Ecuador and Iceland are sometimes willing to take a stand on these issues, but neither could really do anything to stop the US military if our gov decided to snatch somebody from them, and both are susceptible to US "soft-power" in various ways. Snatching a person under CCP protection out of Hong Kong, however, would be a major international incident.
2013-06-23 09:01:41 AM
1 votes:

SomeoneDumb: The more I hear about this guy, the farther down my list he goes.


Disagree. The Guardian here in the UK is still releasing information supplied by Snowdon about UK data mining of any international traffic that touches out shore. OK, we might need to do this, but the decision should be in the public domain not based on "reinterpreting" an old law.

It is also interesting that the NSA is off-shoring their data collection to the UK where is it not subject to US democratic control.
2013-06-23 09:00:40 AM
1 votes:

Heron: OgreMagi: Dude!  You're undermining your entire stance!  If you go to North Korea I'm going to have to side with the government.  I don't want to side with the farking government!  So don't do that!

If you read the article, you'll see that the only reason he's in Russia is to catch a connecting flight. The article says he'll be heading to Cuba, but the Wikileaks people interviewed for it also said they'd arranged for his transit to a democratic country, and Cuba isn't very democratic. Iceland and Venezuela are still options at this point.


I hope we don't lose to Venezuela. That would be embarrassing.
2013-06-23 08:59:25 AM
1 votes:

Heron: nothing he said was a lie.


You say that with authority. How do you know that's true?
2013-06-23 08:59:16 AM
1 votes:

Heron: Cuba isn't very democratic. Iceland and Venezuela are still options at this point.


If by that you mean Venezuela appears to be democratic.
2013-06-23 08:46:16 AM
1 votes:

OgreMagi: Dude!  You're undermining your entire stance!  If you go to North Korea I'm going to have to side with the government.  I don't want to side with the farking government!  So don't do that!


If you read the article, you'll see that the only reason he's in Russia is to catch a connecting flight. The article says he'll be heading to Cuba, but the Wikileaks people interviewed for it also said they'd arranged for his transit to a democratic country, and Cuba isn't very democratic. Iceland and Venezuela are still options at this point.
2013-06-23 08:44:48 AM
1 votes:
I'm more upset we give NSA several billion dollars a year and they let a high school drlop-out do this type of damage.  What I'm worried about are all the analysts working for foreign countries who keep their mouths shut about what they're up to.
2013-06-23 08:41:36 AM
1 votes:

SurfaceTension: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Oliver North?

Or was it that he was all three at once, depending on who you asked?


The fact he's a commentator on Fox News instead of rotting in a prison somewhere is one of the greatest injustices to befall our criminal system.
2013-06-23 08:32:58 AM
1 votes:

jack21221: Either he didn't leak anything important, or people are not dumbasses. You can't have both.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_secret
2013-06-23 08:31:58 AM
1 votes:

thamike: I genuinely hold these positions. He's doing a media tour before he turns himself in or gets caught (worse idea). None of this was necessary.

2013-06-23 08:31:15 AM
1 votes:

jack21221: thamike: Nothing.  He's done far too many unnecessarily halfwitted things from the very beginning.  At this point, it's about cutting losses.

So, he has no other options, so you're agreeing that what he's doing is out of necessity? You must be trolling. I'm done responding to you since it's clear you don't genuinely hold these positions.


I genuinely hold these positions.  He's doing a media tour before he turns himself in.  None of this was necessary.
2013-06-23 08:26:25 AM
1 votes:

justoneznot: Good job US Government. You've gone so hard after him that the only logical place for him to go is a place we're most at odds with. And I'm sure they'll want to know everything he knows, and since the US government has been so hostile to him, he likely has lost any hesitation he might have had about giving up secret information to them.


Just how hard has the US been going after him?

Whether or not you think he's a hero, he's clearly broken the law.  Do you really think the US is not going to at least make an attempt to arrest him?

It sounds like the US has gone to such great lengths as to issue an arrest warrant and request extradition.  Yeah, that's really going "so hard after him", isn't it?

The only way the US could go less hard after him is to ignore him completely.  Let us know when they send Seal Team 6 to wherever his final country of refuge is.
2013-06-23 08:24:18 AM
1 votes:

thamike: doczoidberg: All he did was tell the public what its own government was doing.

Anyone who thinks this is "treason" is kind of a dumbass.

Leaking secrets is technically treason.  Anyone who thinks about this emotionally is kind of a dumbass.  Anyone who wasn't aware that the NSA can look at his phone records is a particularly lost dumbass.


Were people actually shocked when this news came out?

But he's right. Leaving emotion out of this, technically he's committing treason (the best kind of treason). How can you leak government secrets and not be accused of treason is beyond me.
2013-06-23 08:20:04 AM
1 votes:

doczoidberg: All he did was tell the public what its own government was doing.

Anyone who thinks this is "treason" is kind of a dumbass.


Leaking secrets is technically treason.  Anyone who thinks about this emotionally is kind of a dumbass.  Anyone who wasn't aware that the NSA can look at his phone records is a particularly lost dumbass.
2013-06-23 08:18:09 AM
1 votes:

positronica: The constitution and the supreme court disagree with you. Next time it might be better if you do a little research before spouting off on a topic you clearly haven't thought about all that deeply.


Just because the government violates a right doesn't mean you don't or should not have those rights. You will find most people disagree with defining rights as simply what freedoms the government determines to afford you. For example, blacks always had the right to sit on a bus where they wanted, even though once the government denied them the right. They didn't obtain the right by changing the law; no reasonable person would say they did not have the right beforehand; they asserted their right and the law was found in error, which means they always had it and that law was always wrong.

And, no, sitting on a bus where you want isn't a liberty. The government still has the power to order bus seating, just not based on race.
2013-06-23 07:59:48 AM
1 votes:

numbquil: Why? He's acting out of necessity.


Nothing he has done has been out of necessity.
2013-06-23 07:53:35 AM
1 votes:

tirob: I suspect that Snowden hopes eventually to get to Ecuador.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/report-ecuador-might-offer-asylu m- edward-snowden_736740.html


He's slowly heading in that direction it seems. It would make sense to me.
2013-06-23 07:52:34 AM
1 votes:
2013-06-23 07:50:11 AM
1 votes:

Mrtraveler01: Now what if...

*grabs tinfoil hat*

Snowden is actually a covert spy for the US Government, faked the whole NSA thing just to lull Russia into a false sense of security into trusting him, just so that he can infiltrate the Kremlin and steal back the Super Bowl rings that Putin stole a few years back?

Open your eyes sheeple!


The only thing this is missing here is the one-armed man from arrested development pointing to the ring on his detached fake hand, looking Putin dead in the eye and saying, "and THAT'S why you don't steal a Super Bowl ring."

/end scene
2013-06-23 07:49:38 AM
1 votes:

WorldCitizen: Ah, yes, Aeroflot does have direct flights from Moscow to Havana,


And yet the only way to get to Havana from Miami or Key West is by charter plane.

Got to love our Cold War-era foreign policy!
2013-06-23 07:31:31 AM
1 votes:
In other news, turns out our treaties with the Chinese are worthless.
2013-06-23 07:27:59 AM
1 votes:
The revelations about GCHQ and the Tempora Project yesterday radically outsize the revelations about Prism.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-mastering-the-internet
2013-06-23 07:19:29 AM
1 votes:
I hope they kill him.  He's not a hero, he's a narcissist with an overinflated sense of self-worth who has deluded himself into thinking he's done something good.  He hasn't.  He's just been giving away US intelligence secrets because he's too stupid to do anything else.

When he dies, and it will be soon, I hope it is painful.
2013-06-23 07:13:01 AM
1 votes:

Slaxl: digistil: MurphyMurphy: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Anyone that ever tried to make a difference.

I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

I sorta stopped following it, so I missed that, and I can't google at the moment because I'm wearing a towel. What intel did he give to the Chinese military, and what sources of intel did he give up?


What, exactly, is stopping you from Googling in said towel?
2013-06-23 07:02:08 AM
1 votes:

rabidarmadillo24: At this point he doesn't have many options when it comes to finding asylum. I imagine he plans on revealing how much of Russia's military and diplomatic traffic is being listened to, and possibly what encryptions are vulnerable. This will probably put a huge dent into our abilities to spy on Russia, much like it has probably affected it with China. I imagine he's telling everything that he knows as well as everything that he thinks he knows.

/I know I'm imagining a lot, based on lack of actual knowledge.



They gave out the flight number and destination.  I imagine they have more assets in Russian than in HK.  This guys days are numbered.
2013-06-23 06:45:18 AM
1 votes:
 This is the same as the youtube video incident with Benghazi, when El Presedene' took a 7 hour powder, and had to blame and have arrested the videographer.

 Snowden has not divulged anything that's not been known since before the 'patriot act' was commissioned.

B.O. just needs to make it look like he wasn't slacking off, still.
2013-06-23 06:31:20 AM
1 votes:

lokis_mentor: RT/ITASS has him going to Venezuela ultimately after stop in Cuba.


Ah, yes, Aeroflot does have direct flights from Moscow to Havana, and he's on an Aeroflot flight to Moscow. That would make very much sense.
2013-06-23 06:30:40 AM
1 votes:
The more I hear about this guy, the farther down my list he goes.
2013-06-23 06:23:38 AM
1 votes:

log_jammin: justoneznot: a place we're most at odds with

PROTIP: The cold war ended a few years ago. Americans are only scared of commies at home. abroad, it's the scary brown men in turbans that are the new threat.


While the cold war is technically over, pootie-poot seems to be doing his best to get it started up again.
2013-06-23 06:23:16 AM
1 votes:

log_jammin: justoneznot: a place we're most at odds with

PROTIP: The cold war ended a few years ago. Americans are only scared of commies at home. abroad, it's the scary brown men in turbans that are the new threat.


Oh okay cool, I guess our Russian allies will just send him right back then.
2013-06-23 06:18:12 AM
1 votes:

justoneznot: Good job US Government. You've gone so hard after him that the only logical place for him to go is a place we're most at odds with. And I'm sure they'll want to know everything he knows, and since the US government has been so hostile to him, he likely has lost any hesitation he might have had about giving up secret information to them.


And the one place, that, if they really want the information, they still have the means handy to get it, if he DOES have any hesitation about giving it up.

I hear they've kept the Lubyanka oiled up and ready to go every day.
2013-06-23 06:09:15 AM
1 votes:

MurphyMurphy: As for Ecuador, was that even discussed as a possibility for him?
And remember, Assange didn't go TO Ecuador, he just walked into the embassy in London and requested political asylum. And he's currently stuck there.

As we can see from Assange's position, as hard as it might be to get a nation to agree to harbor you, it's harder yet to actually get inside their borders.

Wherever he goes, Snowden's going to have to be very careful where he picks up his connecting flights.


Well, Assange's only problem is that the British will arrest him the moment he steps outside the embassy's turf to try to get to the airport. Moscow certainly isn't going to detain him. His complication might be that at least a quick search of flights from Moscow to points in unfriendly Latin American countries does not turn up any direct flights from Moscow, but I just quickly searched Moscow to Quito, Havana, and Caracas. He might have to do some complicated flying to make it.
2013-06-23 06:00:47 AM
1 votes:

log_jammin: I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people."


"He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."


From your linked article:

"As you heard the president say on Friday, he believes that we must strike a balance between our security interests and our desire for privacy. He made clear that you cannot have 100 percent security and 100 percent privacy. And, thus, we need to find that balance," White House press secretary Jay Carney said Tuesday.

So, Farkers, what's your balance? What are you willing to give up? How far are you willing to bend over in the name of 'security'?
2013-06-23 05:54:31 AM
1 votes:
So I guess we can safely say that Mr. Snowden has unlocked the Leroy Jenkins achievement?
2013-06-23 05:44:32 AM
1 votes:

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


The government may not be able to but the people have every right to call him a traitor is they see fit.

/and if the traitorous shoe fits...
2013-06-23 05:44:26 AM
1 votes:
Andromeda: quatchi: "Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...


Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with?  If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.

I'm thinking that he's thinking that the more publicity he attracts not just in the US but globally the larger his chances of survival increase and also that by doing it this way at the very least it keeps the story in heavy rotation in the notoriously fickle corporate media with it's "Squirrel? Where?!" cycles.

It's a story that he's basically given up all hope of a normal life for and it seems to be working so far

I could be wrong, obviously, this is all pure speculation and I'm half asleep and at cruising altitude.
2013-06-23 05:34:35 AM
1 votes:

Andromeda: Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with? If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.


Outside of there being no non-stop flights from Hong Kong to Iceland (and probably not to Ecuador)

I think he was still in the process of getting Iceland to ok it? Something like that.

As for Ecuador, was that even discussed as a possibility for him?
And remember, Assange didn't go TO Ecuador, he just walked into the embassy in London and requested political asylum. And he's currently stuck there.

As we can see from Assange's position, as hard as it might be to get a nation to agree to harbor you, it's harder yet to actually get inside their borders.

Wherever he goes, Snowden's going to have to be very careful where he picks up his connecting flights.
2013-06-23 05:32:10 AM
1 votes:
At this point he doesn't have many options when it comes to finding asylum. I imagine he plans on revealing how much of Russia's military and diplomatic traffic is being listened to, and possibly what encryptions are vulnerable. This will probably put a huge dent into our abilities to spy on Russia, much like it has probably affected it with China. I imagine he's telling everything that he knows as well as everything that he thinks he knows.

/I know I'm imagining a lot, based on lack of actual knowledge.
2013-06-23 05:28:55 AM
1 votes:
Sorry Mr. Snowden.  I tried caring about this stuff.  You seem like a nice guy, but I got burned pretty bad supporting that Stark guy on Game of Thrones so I'm gonna stay out of politics for a while.  My heart can't take it.
2013-06-23 05:14:36 AM
1 votes:
"Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...
2013-06-23 05:06:41 AM
1 votes:
Next stop Cuba
 
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