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(Al Jazeera)   Snowden continues his tour of freedom loving countries   (aljazeera.com) divider line 454
    More: Followup, Hong Kong, Moscow, political freedom, South China Morning Post, Dmitry Peskov  
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9360 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jun 2013 at 5:03 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-23 07:00:19 PM  
Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.
 
2013-06-23 07:01:40 PM  

Skleenar: Bloody William: WE'RE farkING OUTSOURCING INTELLIGENCE.

Yup.  This was the big takeaway for me.

Privitization.  The cause of and solution to all of Government's problems.


I don't see how this is a problem with privatization.  The background check and security clearance are still done by the government.
 
2013-06-23 07:07:06 PM  

Ricardo Klement: Skleenar: Bloody William: WE'RE farkING OUTSOURCING INTELLIGENCE.

Yup.  This was the big takeaway for me.

Privitization.  The cause of and solution to all of Government's problems.

I don't see how this is a problem with privatization.  The background check and security clearance are still done by the government.


Yeah but for something like this, there should be no outsourcing. Otherwise the accountability isn't there.
 
2013-06-23 07:15:56 PM  

MisterEZ: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

What're you talking about? I keep seeing people call him a hero/patriot.



It doesn't matter what you call him. As Obama said "you cannot run faster than a bullet"...

... come to think of it, it was either Obama or Idi Amin. I get them mixed up all the time... I guess you should Google it if you really care...
 
2013-06-23 07:22:06 PM  

mikemil828: That China let him leave should tell you everything you need to know about Snowden's credibility, if he was really a valid source of info, he would've disappeared on the way to the airport, it would've been risk-free for the Chinese to do so as they would have blamed Obama and all the internet would have bought it like Fry buys phones. That they let him go shows that even the Chinese know he is full of shiat.


But he wasn't in mainland China, he was in Hong Kong. The PRC has their own reasons for not wanting to appear to openly violate the rule of law in Hong Kong. They don't want to stir up too much trouble for themselves there, and for Taiwan, they have to show that, "hey, if you come join the party like Hong Kong, we'll leave you alone internally, we promise!".  Beijing must tread carefully in Hong Kong, and their own internal politics comes before some US issue.
 
2013-06-23 07:25:10 PM  

Ricardo Klement: Skleenar: Bloody William: WE'RE farkING OUTSOURCING INTELLIGENCE.

Yup.  This was the big takeaway for me.

Privitization.  The cause of and solution to all of Government's problems.

I don't see how this is a problem with privatization.  The background check and security clearance are still done by the government.


Well, if by "this" you mean Snowden's releases, then I agree "this" isn't necessarily a problem with privatization.  However, there are plenty other problems with private, for profit, entities being entrusted with the surveillance powers of the NSA.
 
2013-06-23 07:30:37 PM  

whidbey: Ricardo Klement: Skleenar: Bloody William: WE'RE farkING OUTSOURCING INTELLIGENCE.

Yup.  This was the big takeaway for me.

Privitization.  The cause of and solution to all of Government's problems.

I don't see how this is a problem with privatization.  The background check and security clearance are still done by the government.

Yeah but for something like this, there should be no outsourcing. Otherwise the accountability isn't there.


Yeah it is - the government is never far from the process.  They do regular security audits and they're not easy.
 
2013-06-23 07:32:04 PM  

Skleenar: Ricardo Klement: Skleenar: Bloody William: WE'RE farkING OUTSOURCING INTELLIGENCE.

Yup.  This was the big takeaway for me.

Privitization.  The cause of and solution to all of Government's problems.

I don't see how this is a problem with privatization.  The background check and security clearance are still done by the government.

Well, if by "this" you mean Snowden's releases, then I agree "this" isn't necessarily a problem with privatization.  However, there are plenty other problems with private, for profit, entities being entrusted with the surveillance powers of the NSA.


Remember: he worked for Booze at an NSA facility, not a Booze facility.  The private for-profit entities aren't entrusted with independent surveillance powers.
 
2013-06-23 07:34:00 PM  

Ricardo Klement: Yeah it is - the government is never far from the process.


"Never far" is a relative term.

They do regular security audits and they're not easy.

Policing a contractor, not itself. There should be NO contracting when it comes to military matters. That's the big problem we're having.
 
2013-06-23 07:52:20 PM  

letrole: All this privacy fetish rubbish is certainly amusing.

If you leave your front door, walk down the street, get a taxi, so on and so forth, and this chain of events is recorded on CCTV tapes for playback-- it's simply not an invasion of your privacy.

If you communicate on an infrastructure that you neither built, own, nor maintain, then anything you transmit can likewise be stored -- and subject to the same analysis.

Expectations of privacy are very much in line with Rights.

You have the right to do whatever you can conceive and achieve solely through your own efforts. But, if someone is required or compelled or obligated to provide assistance, then that thing you wish to do is not a right. It is rather a *privilege*.

So you do have a right to privacy in a locked room that you actually own, with windows drawn and guests of your own choosing. But not on the telephone or interweb. For those sorts of communications, administrators and technicians and system owners must cooperate with you so that you can achieve what you wish to do. Again, it's a privilege that comes with paying a phone bill.


The biggest problem I have with your opinion is that the surveillance isnt equal opportunity.  I dont necessarily disagree with your expectation of privacy reasoning.  But when network administrators are compelled to clandestinely comply with authorities for surveillance it does purposefully create a false sense of privacy.  That is deception and unequal use as opposed to your CCTV or social media examples.

The issue goes beyond expectation of privacy and into deception and unfair practices.
 
2013-06-23 07:57:07 PM  

CowboyUpCowgirlDown: andrewagill: lokis_mentor: RT/ITASS has him going to Venezuela ultimately after stop in Cuba.

Because Venezuela has no extradition with the United States.

WRONG AGAIN!


Actually, I am aware that Venezuela has an extradition treaty with the US.  Both Burn After Reading and The Spanish Prisoner make the same mistake, which I always found... curious.

/Burn After Reading always struck me as The Coen Bros. do Mamet.
 
2013-06-23 08:09:06 PM  

andrewagill: CowboyUpCowgirlDown: andrewagill: lokis_mentor: RT/ITASS has him going to Venezuela ultimately after stop in Cuba.

Because Venezuela has no extradition with the United States.

WRONG AGAIN!

Actually, I am aware that Venezuela has an extradition treaty with the US.  Both Burn After Reading and The Spanish Prisoner make the same mistake, which I always found... curious.

/Burn After Reading always struck me as The Coen Bros. do Mamet.


While true, Venezuela just like Ecuador (and the USA) doesn't extradite political refugees.
 
2013-06-23 08:42:41 PM  

whidbey: Ricardo Klement: Yeah it is - the government is never far from the process.

"Never far" is a relative term.

They do regular security audits and they're not easy.

Policing a contractor, not itself. There should be NO contracting when it comes to military matters. That's the big problem we're having.


I'm not sure I'm seeing how the contracting is the issue.
 
2013-06-23 08:56:05 PM  
This... is insanely embarrassing.

Not for the US government, for the American people. The man did nothing wrong.
 
2013-06-23 09:08:04 PM  

Marine1: This... is insanely embarrassing.

Not for the US government, for the American people. The man did nothing wrong.


You mean his outing the details of trying to hack Medvedev's phone was ok?
 
2013-06-23 09:25:31 PM  

WorldCitizen: mikemil828: That China let him leave should tell you everything you need to know about Snowden's credibility, if he was really a valid source of info, he would've disappeared on the way to the airport, it would've been risk-free for the Chinese to do so as they would have blamed Obama and all the internet would have bought it like Fry buys phones. That they let him go shows that even the Chinese know he is full of shiat.

But he wasn't in mainland China, he was in Hong Kong. The PRC has their own reasons for not wanting to appear to openly violate the rule of law in Hong Kong. They don't want to stir up too much trouble for themselves there, and for Taiwan, they have to show that, "hey, if you come join the party like Hong Kong, we'll leave you alone internally, we promise!".  Beijing must tread carefully in Hong Kong, and their own internal politics comes before some US issue.


You seem to have missed the second part of my statement, the PRC wouldn't need to appear to openly violate the rule of law in Hong Kong, as everyone would assume the American government did it, like I said, risk-free.
 
2013-06-23 09:41:36 PM  
Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.


Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.
 
2013-06-23 10:04:50 PM  

Marine1: This... is insanely embarrassing.

Not for the US government, for the American people. The man did nothing wrong.


he did a lot right, but to say he did nothing wrong is to not understand everything he has done
 
2013-06-23 10:05:18 PM  

SirEattonHogg: Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.

Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.


Can you please provide ONE example of something he has verifiably revealed to foreign governments that was VERIFIABLY not already known by said foreign governments. ONE SINGLE THING.
 
2013-06-23 10:07:44 PM  

tbhouston: Marine1: This... is insanely embarrassing.

Not for the US government, for the American people. The man did nothing wrong.

he did a lot right, but to say he did nothing wrong is to not understand everything he has done


So enlighten us, oh vague, cryptic and pointless one. Help us "understand" as you so clearly do.
 
2013-06-23 10:18:59 PM  
Serious Post on Serious Thread: Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.

Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.


Can you please provide ONE example of something he has verifiably revealed to foreign governments that was VERIFIABLY not already known by said foreign governments. ONE SINGLE THING.

Aljazeera reported the following "The US government is hacking Chinese mobile-phone companies to gather data from millions of text messages, Edward Snowden has told the  South China Morning Post in Hong Kong.

US spies have also hacked China's Tsinghua University in Beijing and Asia Pacific fibre-optic network operator Pacnet, the newspaper reported on Saturday quoting the former US National Security Agency (NSA) contractor charged with espionage for exposing secret US surveillance activities.  "The NSA does all kinds of things like hack Chinese cell phone companies to steal all of your SMS data," Snowden said in the interview conducted on June 12.  The  Post said Snowden had provided documents listing operational details of specific attacks on computers, including internet protocol (IP) addresses, over a four-year period.  Government data shows almost 900bn text messages were exchanged in China in 2012.

When the government prosecutes someone for revealing classified information, there is no defense based on the fact that the Chinese or the Russians knew that stuff anyways.

Further, do the Chinese know that we spied on Tsinghua or its cell phone companies?
 
2013-06-23 10:37:24 PM  

SirEattonHogg: Serious Post on Serious Thread: Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.

Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.

Can you please provide ONE example of something he has verifiably revealed to foreign governments that was VERIFIABLY not already known by said foreign governments. ONE SINGLE THING.

Aljazeera reported the following "The US government is hacking Chinese mobile-phone companies to gather data from millions of text messages, Edward Snowden has told the  South China Morning Post in Hong Kong.

US spies have also hacked China's Tsinghua University in Beijing and Asia Pacific fibre-optic network operator Pacnet, the newspaper reported on Saturday quoting the former US National Security Agency (NSA) contractor charged with espionage for exposing secret US surveillance activities.  "The NSA does all kinds of things like hack Chinese cell phone companies to steal all of your SMS data," Snowden said in the interview conducted on June 12.  The  Post said Snowden had provided documents listing operational details of specific attacks on computers, including internet protocol (IP) addresses, over a four-year period.  Government data shows almost 900bn text messages were exchanged in China in 2012.

When the government prosecutes someone for revealing classified information, there is no defense based on the fact that the Chinese or the Russians knew that stuff anyways.

Further, do the Chinese know that we spied on Tsinghua or its cell phone companies?


what? Continuous assertions that "The Chinese knew we were doing all this anyway" isn't good enough for you? Leave Dorothy Mantooth alone. He's a saint!
 
2013-06-23 10:56:54 PM  
skullkrusher:   what? Continuous assertions that "The Chinese knew we were doing all this anyway" isn't good enough for you? Leave Dorothy Mantooth alone. He's a saint!

Dorothy Mantooth?!  Why don't you go back to your home on Whore island!
 
2013-06-23 11:04:28 PM  
Paperwork delay. It happens.
goodmorninggloucester.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-06-23 11:46:06 PM  

DoctorCal: CowboyUpCowgirlDown: andrewagill: lokis_mentor: RT/ITASS has him going to Venezuela ultimately after stop in Cuba.

Because Venezuela has no extradition with the United States.

WRONG AGAIN!


You understand Ecuador and Venezuela are different countries, right?


Yes:  I know they're different.  I assumed Venezuela was just a change of plane on the way to Quito.  He met with Ecuadorian Diplomats in Moscow, not Venezuelan.  Nobody has reported that he's requested asylum in Venezuela...But to your credit:  I didn't read what I linked.
 
2013-06-24 12:37:05 AM  

Ricardo Klement: whidbey: Ricardo Klement: Yeah it is - the government is never far from the process.

"Never far" is a relative term.

They do regular security audits and they're not easy.

Policing a contractor, not itself. There should be NO contracting when it comes to military matters. That's the big problem we're having.

I'm not sure I'm seeing how the contracting is the issue.


It's really not rocket science:

See; Halliburon, Blackwater. By outsourcing its operations, the US government ultimately is off the hook for any abuses of power.
 
2013-06-24 12:39:39 AM  

whidbey: By outsourcing its operations, the US government ultimately is off the hook for any abuses of power.


Or even just for any fark ups.

Like any company that uses contractors.
 
2013-06-24 12:43:39 AM  

Serious Post on Serious Thread: SirEattonHogg: Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.

Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.

Can you please provide ONE example of something he has verifiably revealed to foreign governments that was VERIFIABLY not already known by said foreign governments. ONE SINGLE THING.


Verifiably not already known?

You telling me you didn't already know the government was spying on us, that this was a complete surprise?
 
2013-06-24 12:46:58 AM  

whidbey: Ricardo Klement: whidbey: Ricardo Klement: Yeah it is - the government is never far from the process.

"Never far" is a relative term.

They do regular security audits and they're not easy.

Policing a contractor, not itself. There should be NO contracting when it comes to military matters. That's the big problem we're having.

I'm not sure I'm seeing how the contracting is the issue.

It's really not rocket science:

See; Halliburon, Blackwater. By outsourcing its operations, the US government ultimately is off the hook for any abuses of power.


Uh-huh.

You know, a reasonable look at this stuff and one might detect a slight difference between a contractor overseas and a contractor in the U.S.  For example, it's a lot harder to run child prostitutes in the U.S. than it is in, say, Bosnia.  Since we're talking about a guy who was a working stiff in the U.S., let's keep the subject limited to the abuses here.
 
2013-06-24 12:48:09 AM  

Ricardo Klement: Serious Post on Serious Thread: SirEattonHogg: Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.

Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.

Can you please provide ONE example of something he has verifiably revealed to foreign governments that was VERIFIABLY not already known by said foreign governments. ONE SINGLE THING.

Verifiably not already known?

You telling me you didn't already know the government was spying on us, that this was a complete surprise?


I love this: "What? We knew it all along!"
And you farkers didn't say anything?
 
2013-06-24 12:52:15 AM  

Ricardo Klement: whidbey: Ricardo Klement: whidbey: Ricardo Klement: Yeah it is - the government is never far from the process.

"Never far" is a relative term.

They do regular security audits and they're not easy.

Policing a contractor, not itself. There should be NO contracting when it comes to military matters. That's the big problem we're having.

I'm not sure I'm seeing how the contracting is the issue.

It's really not rocket science:

See; Halliburon, Blackwater. By outsourcing its operations, the US government ultimately is off the hook for any abuses of power.

Uh-huh.

You know, a reasonable look at this stuff and one might detect a slight difference between a contractor overseas and a contractor in the U.S.  For example, it's a lot harder to run child prostitutes in the U.S. than it is in, say, Bosnia.  Since we're talking about a guy who was a working stiff in the U.S., let's keep the subject limited to the abuses here.


I would still prefer the NSA be its own department accountable to none other than its own department.

The idea of "private spying contractors" is frankly offensive, and counter to the concept of a representative democracy.
 
2013-06-24 12:57:59 AM  

skullkrusher: Ricardo Klement: Serious Post on Serious Thread: SirEattonHogg: Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.

Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.

Can you please provide ONE example of something he has verifiably revealed to foreign governments that was VERIFIABLY not already known by said foreign governments. ONE SINGLE THING.

Verifiably not already known?

You telling me you didn't already know the government was spying on us, that this was a complete surprise?

I love this: "What? We knew it all along!"
And you farkers didn't say anything?


That's not what I'm saying.  I'm pointing out that there are two standards here.  Snowden was a hero because he verified what everyone suspected, doing a great service for us for confirming our suspicions that our government was listening to our phone calls.  But at the same time, he didn't reveal anything important to Russia because they already knew that we were probably trying to listen to their phone calls.  One cannot have it both ways.  Either his revelations matter, in which case, his revealing that information to the Russians makes him a dick, or his revelations are irrelevant, in which case, what's the big deal?

He can have done a good thing in one case and a bad thing in the other, of course, but few people seem to be willing to consider that to be palatable.
 
2013-06-24 01:03:19 AM  

whidbey: I would still prefer the NSA be its own department accountable to none other than its own department.

The idea of "private spying contractors" is frankly offensive, and counter to the concept of a representative democracy.


I'm not sure why that follows.  What's the difference?  Both are U.S. citizens, both undergo precisely the same security clearance reviews and background checks.  So the contractors can pay more.  That means you can get people with more skills involved.
 
2013-06-24 01:05:23 AM  

Ricardo Klement: One cannot have it both ways. Either his revelations matter, in which case, his revealing that information to the Russians makes him a dick, or his revelations are irrelevant, in which case, what's the big deal?


That goes both ways:  How is it that he he a traitor who stole state secrets, but didn't tell us anything we didn't already know?
 
2013-06-24 01:14:22 AM  

sendtodave: Ricardo Klement: One cannot have it both ways. Either his revelations matter, in which case, his revealing that information to the Russians makes him a dick, or his revelations are irrelevant, in which case, what's the big deal?

That goes both ways:  How is it that he he a traitor who stole state secrets, but didn't tell us anything we didn't already know?


He DID tell us something we didn't know.  The TS slides were things we didn't know.  I was merely pointing out the absurdity of, "Tell us one thing he told them they verifiably didn't know."  He is a traitor who released secrets the people of the United States did not want other countries to know.  That's in addition to whatever he told us about what's going on here.
 
2013-06-24 01:35:26 AM  

Ricardo Klement: e is a traitor who released secrets the people of the United States did not want other countries to know.


No, he released secrets that the government of the United States did not want them to know.  Big farking difference.

The people did not know about these things, nor do the people have a say over what is considered a state secret in the first place.  They don't even have control over what they are allowed to see.  They aren't supposed to have that power.

Snowden gave power to the people.  The government doesn't like that.
 
2013-06-24 03:58:17 AM  
Unhip1: Snowden is either playing you all for his own elevaion (including Messiah or martyr conplex), or being played himself. If he really wanted to crack the whip, Wikileaks could've saved him a lot of trouble and money. The fact he ended up on TV news right away made me question his motives fron day one. The daily attention has only confirned that.
Most dangerous attention whore ever.

I dunno, Patrick Henry with his "Give me liberty or give me death" so let's cast off our government and put me in charge might be a contender.

He's considered a hero, too.

Um...using logical fallacies don't really make you look smart.
see: FALSE ANALOGY and EQUIVOCATION
 
2013-06-24 04:02:48 AM  
That was to sendtodave, not to myself
 
2013-06-24 05:18:10 AM  

AndreMA: thamike: AndreMA: log_jammin: AndreMA: Also careful that his flights don't have a chance of passing through airspace (US or international) controlled by US ATC.

because?

A convenient diversion for "weather" reasons to a US airport.

Wouldn't the plane have to be in U.S. airspace?

Someone handles the traffic in international airspace; there are treaties in place to determine which country handles mid-ocean traffic.


Ok.
 
2013-06-24 05:23:29 AM  

Reverend J: thamike: Cornelius Dribble: Cuba, huh? Lee Harvey Snowden.

Snowden's neither an assassin nor a patsy.  He's just a little thick in the head.

For being thick in the head he sure is pulling a fast one on the US government.

I love how the government is saying "trust us" when their approval ratings is at 16%.  Caught the Sunday morning talking heads and I can't count how many times  politicians who came on TV said that "50 terrorist attacks were foiled" it seems everyone got the same talking points. It'd be great if they could give say 10 to 15 real examples, maybe I'd believe them then. Also, expect this to happen way more, with over 1 million contractors with TS clearance, it's not a matter of if someone is going to leak a ton more info, it's just a matter of when.


Really, this is the only bit of wisdom to take away from this entire fiasco.
 
2013-06-24 05:33:00 AM  

Ricardo Klement: whidbey: I would still prefer the NSA be its own department accountable to none other than its own department.

The idea of "private spying contractors" is frankly offensive, and counter to the concept of a representative democracy.

I'm not sure why that follows.  What's the difference?  Both are U.S. citizens, both undergo precisely the same security clearance reviews and background checks.


Well then maybe you need to Google both Halliburton and Blackwater like I asked you to. You clearly have forgotten the past 10 years.
 
2013-06-24 05:45:15 AM  

whidbey: See; Halliburon, Blackwater. By outsourcing its operations, the US government ultimately is off the hook for any abuses of power.


If only it was as nefarious and less slipshod, i might have some backhanded respect for our evil, evil government.  The privatization of the military was a simple (yet almost improperly generous) favor amongst "friends."  It was the Buch/Cheney/Wolfowitz gladhanders' lack of concern about consequences that has reaped all of these consequences.

Privatizing the army and outsourcing intelligence wasn't a plan hatched in a converted volcano lair by guys with eye patches.  It was done over wasted Scotch in a stuffy wooden outpost among men's men who get together in solitude to man the menly man thing and huff the cigar snortbeast and shake hands and cackle over money.

What the world's been going through is a giant multi-billion dollar frat stunt.  And that's why it sucks.  2000-2008 was a Bret Easton Ellis novel only with less than half of the needless male nudity, and none of the shame.
 
2013-06-24 06:42:31 AM  
A reporter for RT on the Moscow to Havana flight said that they had left the gate with no Snowden on board. Has anyone checked the cargo compartment?
 
2013-06-24 07:27:08 AM  

Brian_of_Nazareth: Not to try to push this discussion in a different direction(let's face it, the shiat-tossing on both sides is entertaining), but there's one question nobody seems to have asked yet.  All this data the government is pulling that according to some represents a massive intrusion into personal privacy is coming from corporate servers.  So, apparently you're all fine with Google, AT&T, Verizon, etc having and using this data with oversight only from shareholders, yet it's full-on panic mode when the government gets its hands on this data even though there is, at least ostensibly, some restraint and oversight.  Google watching your email for economic advantage?  All good.  NSA watching your emails because some people are afraid of terrorists?  INVASION OF PRIVACY!111!

We now return you to the regularly scheduled Sunday morning babble-fest.

Cheers.


Because google, verizon, Facebook, etc cannot send you to a secret prison without being told what crime you have been charged with and waterboard you. Just because the government supposedly doesn't look at the data now, they already have collected all of it and they could get a warrant to look at your specific data later. It could possible undermine free speech. The government could possibly dig into the data to find out whether or not someone participated in a protest. Or if someone who is speaking out against the government starts to gain to large a following, the data could be used as blackmail if they have ever cheated on their spouse or done anything else embarrassing. In the United States pretty much all privacy laws ever passed regarded what the government can do with the data. This is because the government has powers that are not available to private companies. I think that is the obvious difference.

Plus, the government is assembling the whole picture. Verizon only has access to a limited set of data about your cell phone usage. Google may have information about your shopping habits and search history. Facebook has a variety of information about us. Once it's all gathered into a single place a much clearer picture can be painted about you and your activities. It's also obvious that the information being gathered probably doesn't reflect exactly who you are as a person and could easily be distorted to make you out to be something you are not.
 
2013-06-24 07:30:26 AM  

thamike: numbquil: Why? He's acting out of necessity.

Nothing he has done has been out of necessity.


He had to travel to these countries because avoiding arrest is in his own best interest. Whether or not you agree with what he did. Keep in mind he was in Hawaii. It is possible that he couldn't get a direct flight from Hawaii to Venezuela or whatever his final destination is.
 
2013-06-24 10:12:11 AM  

Ricardo Klement: skullkrusher: Ricardo Klement: Serious Post on Serious Thread: SirEattonHogg: Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.

Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.

Can you please provide ONE example of something he has verifiably revealed to foreign governments that was VERIFIABLY not already known by said foreign governments. ONE SINGLE THING.

Verifiably not already known?

You telling me you didn't already know the government was spying on us, that this was a complete surprise?

I love this: "What? We knew it all along!"
And you farkers didn't say anything?

That's not what I'm saying.  I'm pointing out that there are two standards here.  Snowden was a hero because he verified what everyone suspected, doing a great service for us for confirming our suspicions that our government was listening to our phone calls.  But at the same time, he didn't reveal anything important to Russia because they already knew that we were probably trying to listen to their phone calls.  One cannot have it both ways.  Either his revelations matter, in which case, his revealing that information to the Russians makes him a dick, or his revelations are irrelevant, in which case, what's the big deal?

He can have done a good thing in one case and a bad thing in the other, of course, but few people seem to be willing to consider that to be palatable.


You are being pedantic. And your either/or is bunk. The foreign gov'ts in question certainly knew all this crap before hand, and are certainly doing their damndest to do it themselves. So no harm to perceived US 'interests' and 'safety'. On the other hand, the US citizens also knew, could have known or suspected most of this shiat. It's been on everything from Wired to Jay Leno in years past. Snowden just put a finer point on it and got the shiatizens to pay farking attention (at least til the next distraction of the week occurs).
 
2013-06-24 10:31:24 AM  

sendtodave: Ricardo Klement: e is a traitor who released secrets the people of the United States did not want other countries to know.

No, he released secrets that the government of the United States did not want them to know.  Big farking difference.

The people did not know about these things, nor do the people have a say over what is considered a state secret in the first place.  They don't even have control over what they are allowed to see.  They aren't supposed to have that power.

Snowden gave power to the people.  The government doesn't like that.


Power would suggest choice.  Snowden didn't give the people any discretion in what would be made available to the world.  He didn't empower the people, he took it away.  And, given the polling, he did something most people didn't want.  QED.
 
2013-06-24 10:34:11 AM  

Ricardo Klement: That's not what I'm saying. I'm pointing out that there are two standards here. Snowden was a hero because he verified what everyone suspected, doing a great service for us for confirming our suspicions that our government was listening to our phone calls. But at the same time, he didn't reveal anything important to Russia because they already knew that we were probably trying to listen to their phone calls. One cannot have it both ways. Either his revelations matter, in which case, his revealing that information to the Russians makes him a dick, or his revelations are irrelevant, in which case, what's the big deal?


I don't think very many people suspected the extent to which we were being spied upon. Sure, there has always been grumbling about abuses of the PATRIOT Act and what it COULD be used for but I have heard very few people saying this sort of shiat was ongoing and extensive except Alex Jones
 
2013-06-24 10:56:35 AM  

whidbey: Ricardo Klement: whidbey: I would still prefer the NSA be its own department accountable to none other than its own department.

The idea of "private spying contractors" is frankly offensive, and counter to the concept of a representative democracy.

I'm not sure why that follows.  What's the difference?  Both are U.S. citizens, both undergo precisely the same security clearance reviews and background checks.

Well then maybe you need to Google both Halliburton and Blackwater like I asked you to. You clearly have forgotten the past 10 years.


Again - we're talking about two different things.  There's a difference between what they do and what Booze does.  I share your concerns over the legal blind-spot in which deployed contractors live.  But I do not when it comes to intel analysis.  Why do you insist on conflating the two?
 
2013-06-24 10:59:35 AM  

Serious Post on Serious Thread: You are being pedantic. And your either/or is bunk. The foreign gov'ts in question certainly knew all this crap before hand, and are certainly doing their damndest to do it themselves. So no harm to perceived US 'interests' and 'safety'. On the other hand, the US citizens also knew, could have known or suspected most of this shiat. It's been on everything from Wired to Jay Leno in years past. Snowden just put a finer point on it and got the shiatizens to pay farking attention (at least til the next distraction of the week occurs).


So you admit that Snowden didn't tell the public anything they verifiably didn't already know.  So really, this hero-worship really IS misplaced.
 
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