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(Al Jazeera)   Snowden continues his tour of freedom loving countries   (aljazeera.com) divider line 453
    More: Followup, Hong Kong, Moscow, political freedom, South China Morning Post, Dmitry Peskov  
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9368 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jun 2013 at 5:03 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-23 11:37:37 AM  

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


Therefore, since the USA did that, it automatically means that Communist China, Russia, Cuba, and Venezuela are ideal paragons of liberal democracy? "Tu quoque" is a logical fallacy.
 
2013-06-23 11:44:03 AM  
Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

img.fark.net
 
2013-06-23 11:45:38 AM  

generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]


didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.
 
2013-06-23 11:48:11 AM  

skullkrusher: generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]

didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.


Did he actually do that?

/must've missed the press release
 
2013-06-23 11:48:37 AM  

thamike: Cornelius Dribble: Cuba, huh? Lee Harvey Snowden.

Snowden's neither an assassin nor a patsy.  He's just a little thick in the head.


For being thick in the head he sure is pulling a fast one on the US government.

I love how the government is saying "trust us" when their approval ratings is at 16%.  Caught the Sunday morning talking heads and I can't count how many times  politicians who came on TV said that "50 terrorist attacks were foiled" it seems everyone got the same talking points. It'd be great if they could give say 10 to 15 real examples, maybe I'd believe them then. Also, expect this to happen way more, with over 1 million contractors with TS clearance, it's not a matter of if someone is going to leak a ton more info, it's just a matter of when.
 
2013-06-23 11:49:35 AM  

skullkrusher: generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]

didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.


It wouldn't be so bad if there were some altruistic motive to revealing that information, but for him it seems like it was pure self-interest.

Still, one can be a hero and dickbag (in fact, it's probably a fine line sometimes).
 
2013-06-23 11:52:23 AM  

Mrtraveler01: skullkrusher: generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]

didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.

Did he actually do that?

/must've missed the press release


yeah, when he first got to Hong Kong - at the time it seemed a bone he threw to the Chinese to take his side in coming extradition request.

US cyberespionage on Chinese private and government interests. Ya know, like the Chinese do to US private and government interests all the time. This "hero" decided he wanted to share these dastardly actions with the Chinese. fark him.
 
2013-06-23 11:53:53 AM  

SomebodyElsesShoes: skullkrusher: generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]

didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.

It wouldn't be so bad if there were some altruistic motive to revealing that information, but for him it seems like it was pure self-interest.

Still, one can be a hero and dickbag (in fact, it's probably a fine line sometimes).


Even if he did it for "altruistic" reasons, dick move. You're an American. You tell the American people about very sketchy domestic spying - good. You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad.
 
2013-06-23 11:54:09 AM  

Reverend J: It'd be great if they could give say 10 to 15 real examples, maybe I'd believe them then.


...and this is why most people are too stupid to understand how intelligence works.
 
2013-06-23 11:54:21 AM  
From China, to Russia, to Cuba, to Venezuela--that's a pretty interesting itinerary for an alleged self-motivated "whistle-blower" who spilled US government secrets. Why no Iceland? He'd be just as safe, albeit without the opportunity to have a lucrative career working hand-in-glove with the avowed enemies of the USA. My sympathy for him is dwindling quickly, based on his current choices.
 
2013-06-23 11:55:24 AM  
Wonder where he got the money to travel ? Did China say here's some cash, get lost, we don't need the grief ?
 
2013-06-23 11:56:55 AM  

cig-mkr: Wonder where he got the money to travel ? Did China say here's some cash, get lost, we don't need the grief ?


Bitcoin :)
 
2013-06-23 11:57:39 AM  

skullkrusher: Mrtraveler01: skullkrusher: generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]

didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.

Did he actually do that?

/must've missed the press release

yeah, when he first got to Hong Kong - at the time it seemed a bone he threw to the Chinese to take his side in coming extradition request.

US cyberespionage on Chinese private and government interests. Ya know, like the Chinese do to US private and government interests all the time. This "hero" decided he wanted to share these dastardly actions with the Chinese. fark him.


that's the issue tho, a government is not insular from the rest of the world - it does not exist in a vacuum

the idea that the US gov't can get away with anything it wants is as short sighted as saying China should get away with whatever it wants

doing so basically negates both the trust of the American people and negates whatever leverage we have in relationships with other countries

spying is a gamble in itself - one that's necessary, spying on a systematic level of unprecedented magnitude is a gigantic gamble and nobody has really been able to justify its existence

the idea of getting rid of Snowden at this point is the equivalent of telling people there's nothing to see while an atomic explosion goes off in the background
 
2013-06-23 11:59:34 AM  

thamike: AndreMA: log_jammin: AndreMA: Also careful that his flights don't have a chance of passing through airspace (US or international) controlled by US ATC.

because?

A convenient diversion for "weather" reasons to a US airport.

Wouldn't the plane have to be in U.S. airspace?


Someone handles the traffic in international airspace; there are treaties in place to determine which country handles mid-ocean traffic.
 
2013-06-23 12:02:24 PM  

cig-mkr: Wonder where he got the money to travel ? Did China say here's some cash, get lost, we don't need the grief ?


I believe he's being helped by the Wikileaks people, who have access to supporters with deep pockets.
 
2013-06-23 12:03:36 PM  

Silly_Sot: From China, to Russia, to Cuba, to Venezuela--that's a pretty interesting itinerary for an alleged self-motivated "whistle-blower" who spilled US government secrets. Why no Iceland? He'd be just as safe, albeit without the opportunity to have a lucrative career working hand-in-glove with the avowed enemies of the USA. My sympathy for him is dwindling quickly, based on his current choices.


Russia and China are now enemies? when do we go to war?
 
2013-06-23 12:03:55 PM  
I periodically clean out my "ignore" list.

This appears to be an error.
 
2013-06-23 12:04:18 PM  

AdamK: skullkrusher: Mrtraveler01: skullkrusher: generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]

didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.

Did he actually do that?

/must've missed the press release

yeah, when he first got to Hong Kong - at the time it seemed a bone he threw to the Chinese to take his side in coming extradition request.

US cyberespionage on Chinese private and government interests. Ya know, like the Chinese do to US private and government interests all the time. This "hero" decided he wanted to share these dastardly actions with the Chinese. fark him.

that's the issue tho, a government is not insular from the rest of the world - it does not exist in a vacuum

the idea that the US gov't can get away with anything it wants is as short sighted as saying China should get away with whatever it wants

doing so basically negates both the trust of the American people and negates whatever leverage we have in relationships with other countries

spying is a gamble in itself - one that's necessary, spying on a systematic level of unprecedented magnitude is a gigantic gamble and nobody has really been able to justify its existence

the idea of getting rid of Snowden at this point is the equivalent of telling people there's nothing to see while an atomic explosion goes off in the background


and we have no public evidence that the Chinese are doing the same to us... mainly cuz there is no Chinese version of Snowden yet.

It's bullshiat. That is national security stuff. That is shiat that can have extreme impact on diplomatic relations. shiat, we have spies in the UK. This is what countries do. You just don't come out and say it though
 
2013-06-23 12:07:19 PM  

generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]


It also requires two witnesses to the same overt act.
 
2013-06-23 12:08:22 PM  

Biological Ali: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.


Right, because we were this close to addressing this problem before Snowden did his thing. Darn him!
 
2013-06-23 12:08:53 PM  

skullkrusher: AdamK: skullkrusher: Mrtraveler01: skullkrusher: generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]

didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.

Did he actually do that?

/must've missed the press release

yeah, when he first got to Hong Kong - at the time it seemed a bone he threw to the Chinese to take his side in coming extradition request.

US cyberespionage on Chinese private and government interests. Ya know, like the Chinese do to US private and government interests all the time. This "hero" decided he wanted to share these dastardly actions with the Chinese. fark him.

that's the issue tho, a government is not insular from the rest of the world - it does not exist in a vacuum

the idea that the US gov't can get away with anything it wants is as short sighted as saying China should get away with whatever it wants

doing so basically negates both the trust of the American people and negates whatever leverage we have in relationships with other countries

spying is a gamble in itself - one that's necessary, spying on a systematic level of unprecedented magnitude is a gigantic gamble and nobody has really been able to justify its existence

the idea of getting rid of Snowden at this point is the equivalent of telling people there's nothing to see while an atomic explosion goes off in the background

and we have no public evidence that the Chinese are doing the same to us... mainly cuz there is no Chinese version of Snowden yet.

It's bullshiat. That is national security stuff. That is shiat that can have extreme impact on diplomatic relations. shiat, we have spies in the UK. This is what countries do. You just don't come out and say it though


wait, what? there's been obvious evidence of Chinese hacking/tracking for years, every year american companies gripe about it with the US gov't and it makes the news sometimes

the chinese deny it of course, but i doubt a chinese snowden would change anything either

but that's the point right? the chinese gov't doesn't answer to anybody but the chinese gov't, they're not a democracy, we are, hence why it's a big deal
 
2013-06-23 12:10:59 PM  
Not to try to push this discussion in a different direction(let's face it, the shiat-tossing on both sides is entertaining), but there's one question nobody seems to have asked yet.  All this data the government is pulling that according to some represents a massive intrusion into personal privacy is coming from corporate servers.  So, apparently you're all fine with Google, AT&T, Verizon, etc having and using this data with oversight only from shareholders, yet it's full-on panic mode when the government gets its hands on this data even though there is, at least ostensibly, some restraint and oversight.  Google watching your email for economic advantage?  All good.  NSA watching your emails because some people are afraid of terrorists?  INVASION OF PRIVACY!111!

We now return you to the regularly scheduled Sunday morning babble-fest.

Cheers.
 
2013-06-23 12:12:02 PM  

skullkrusher: You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad


Do you really think the Russians and Chinese weren't already aware that we were spying on them? Can you point to any classified methods or sources that Snowden revealed that were plausibly secret?

(That the local CIA station is in the embassy might be "classified", but please be serious.)
 
2013-06-23 12:14:09 PM  

AdamK: the chinese deny it of course, but i doubt a chinese snowden would change anything either


and we denied it to. Until a farking turncoat in our intel decided to blow the lid off of it

AdamK: but that's the point right? the chinese gov't doesn't answer to anybody but the chinese gov't, they're not a democracy, we are, hence why it's a big deal


I guess I am just not shocked or upset that we don't get to vote a referendum on what covert ops the country engages in. Hacking some Chinese computers does not morally trouble me - it in no way makes me relieved that the cat is out of the bag. I have zero outrage about it. He didn't do the American people a service. He did the Chinese government a service by revealing that info. Again, fark him.
 
2013-06-23 12:14:50 PM  

WorldCitizen: I'm guessing most of the people here calling for death without due process are the ones who scream the loudest about action X being unconstitutional when person/party in power Y that they oppose does nearly anything.


I'm finding it useful to know who the violent psychos are.
 
2013-06-23 12:15:41 PM  

Evil High Priest: Biological Ali: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.

Right, because we were this close to addressing this problem before Snowden did his thing. Darn him!


And after Snowden did his thing look at how close we are to making any significant changes as far as spying on people is concerned!
 
2013-06-23 12:16:01 PM  

AndreMA: skullkrusher: You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad

Do you really think the Russians and Chinese weren't already aware that we were spying on them? Can you point to any classified methods or sources that Snowden revealed that were plausibly secret?

(That the local CIA station is in the embassy might be "classified", but please be serious.)


of course they assumed. And, as I said, there was no public indication that we were.  Therefore, diplomatic relations behaved as such. We maintained our ability to deny it, just as they do. Now we can't. They still can.
 
2013-06-23 12:16:42 PM  

AndreMA: skullkrusher: You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad

Do you really think the Russians and Chinese weren't already aware that we were spying on them? Can you point to any classified methods or sources that Snowden revealed that were plausibly secret?

(That the local CIA station is in the embassy might be "classified", but please be serious.)


Project Tempora is by far the biggest thing he's revealed, and most significant. But not under US jurisdiction.
 
2013-06-23 12:19:27 PM  

Brian_of_Nazareth: Not to try to push this discussion in a different direction(let's face it, the shiat-tossing on both sides is entertaining), but there's one question nobody seems to have asked yet.  All this data the government is pulling that according to some represents a massive intrusion into personal privacy is coming from corporate servers.  So, apparently you're all fine with Google, AT&T, Verizon, etc having and using this data with oversight only from shareholders, yet it's full-on panic mode when the government gets its hands on this data even though there is, at least ostensibly, some restraint and oversight.  Google watching your email for economic advantage?  All good.  NSA watching your emails because some people are afraid of terrorists?  INVASION OF PRIVACY!111!

We now return you to the regularly scheduled Sunday morning babble-fest.

Cheers.


welcome to fark.com when this guy first leaked the information

nobody has any real privacy anymore, some care some don't, it's really about how information gets used
 
2013-06-23 12:19:39 PM  

AndreMA: I periodically clean out my "ignore" list.

This appears to be an error.


I tried that once.  First thread I jumped into was a Martin/Zimmerman thread.  That list got repopulated pretty quickly.
 
2013-06-23 12:19:40 PM  

skullkrusher: AdamK: the chinese deny it of course, but i doubt a chinese snowden would change anything either

and we denied it to. Until a farking turncoat in our intel decided to blow the lid off of it

AdamK: but that's the point right? the chinese gov't doesn't answer to anybody but the chinese gov't, they're not a democracy, we are, hence why it's a big deal

I guess I am just not shocked or upset that we don't get to vote a referendum on what covert ops the country engages in. Hacking some Chinese computers does not morally trouble me - it in no way makes me relieved that the cat is out of the bag. I have zero outrage about it. He didn't do the American people a service. He did the Chinese government a service by revealing that info. Again, fark him.


You think the Chinese government didn't already know? The only thing he's handed the Chinese government is a lovely publicity piece by them now being able to throw back into the face of the US its own electronic surveillance of its own people and its electronic espionage (that everyone knew we would be doing anyway) of other countries when we complain about Chinese electronic espionage. It's not great for US soft power, but it's not some great secret broken open that changes the game on the espionage ground.
 
2013-06-23 12:21:21 PM  

WorldCitizen: skullkrusher: AdamK: the chinese deny it of course, but i doubt a chinese snowden would change anything either

and we denied it to. Until a farking turncoat in our intel decided to blow the lid off of it

AdamK: but that's the point right? the chinese gov't doesn't answer to anybody but the chinese gov't, they're not a democracy, we are, hence why it's a big deal

I guess I am just not shocked or upset that we don't get to vote a referendum on what covert ops the country engages in. Hacking some Chinese computers does not morally trouble me - it in no way makes me relieved that the cat is out of the bag. I have zero outrage about it. He didn't do the American people a service. He did the Chinese government a service by revealing that info. Again, fark him.

You think the Chinese government didn't already know? The only thing he's handed the Chinese government is a lovely publicity piece by them now being able to throw back into the face of the US its own electronic surveillance of its own people and its electronic espionage (that everyone knew we would be doing anyway) of other countries when we complain about Chinese electronic espionage. It's not great for US soft power, but it's not some great secret broken open that changes the game on the espionage ground.


also the locations of hacks. Do you think the Chinese government knew we hacked a university computer system? Practical info and PR damage. Fark him. He did no service to the American people in this regard.
 
2013-06-23 12:21:56 PM  
This guy just gets more awesome by the minute! Not only has he performed a service to humanity for riling up this shiat storm, he did it while trolling both the left and the right in US gov't and every boot licking douche in America.

PLUS, he's clearly set himself up to be balls deep in at least half of Pussy Riot by the end of the year!! I really really hope he doesn't get droned, cause this is looking to be a great and satisfying long troll!
 
2013-06-23 12:22:00 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: yagottabefarkinkiddinme: We have some smug Mf'er here on Fark. Just because you feel it is ok to spy on everything because you are ok with it does not make it right...or the American thing to do. It's sneaky shiat. It undermines my trust in our government. It undermines our freedom. It screams a lack of integrity to do the right thing when we cannot see behind the veil of secrecy. I can't even have phone sex with my wife without a NSA 3-way. Fark that noise.

...and like everyone else here who's having "OMG THE NSA IS SPYING ON ME!" reaction, you're vastly over-estimating your own importance in the universe.

The NSA isn't spying on you.  They're not spying on me.  They're collecting all the data they can, and then sifting through, looking for certain people, certain voices, certain connection.

They don't have the time or resorces to spy on you or me or Doroles Twatwaffle in Duluth; they have to run full out just to find the few scraps they're looking for; it's like gold-mining: you ignore the tons of worthless dirt you have to sift through to find a few flakes of gold.


And in ten years when Ms. Twatwaffle is considering her Senate run, her esteemed opponent who 'knows a guy' will find all he needs to destroy her.
 
2013-06-23 12:22:53 PM  

skullkrusher: AndreMA: skullkrusher: You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad

Do you really think the Russians and Chinese weren't already aware that we were spying on them? Can you point to any classified methods or sources that Snowden revealed that were plausibly secret?

(That the local CIA station is in the embassy might be "classified", but please be serious.)

of course they assumed. And, as I said, there was no public indication that we were.  Therefore, diplomatic relations behaved as such. We maintained our ability to deny it, just as they do. Now we can't. They still can.


I think they probably did a little more than "assumed" -- the concept of counter-intelligence is not foreign to them. The only "ability to deny" amounted to an ability to lie to the public. I see no change except that the US electorate is a bit better informed.
 
2013-06-23 12:24:11 PM  
He's a Promethean John Galt Knowledge Worker type selling his knowledge to the highest bidder.  Why do you hate Capitalism, subby?
 
2013-06-23 12:24:35 PM  

log_jammin: sendtodave: I don't trust any of these people not to lie or act out of self interest.

That's a very easy and safe opinion to have. doesn't require much thinking or intellectually honesty on your part.


How is "You can't trust any of your owners" intellectually dishonest?

Seems pretty "Occam's Razor" to me.

The look out for themselves, and their enrichment, first.  I trust a high school dropout that is willing to risk his future more than any one of our "representatives."

Because he has something to lose.  These guys?  They never lose, no matter how inept, incompetent, or downright evil they are.

Maybe Snowden's head is out of whack, who knows.  But his heart is in the right place.  That's ore than I've seen for any politician that claims to represent the people.
 
2013-06-23 12:24:44 PM  

AndreMA: skullkrusher: AndreMA: skullkrusher: You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad

Do you really think the Russians and Chinese weren't already aware that we were spying on them? Can you point to any classified methods or sources that Snowden revealed that were plausibly secret?

(That the local CIA station is in the embassy might be "classified", but please be serious.)

of course they assumed. And, as I said, there was no public indication that we were.  Therefore, diplomatic relations behaved as such. We maintained our ability to deny it, just as they do. Now we can't. They still can.

I think they probably did a little more than "assumed" -- the concept of counter-intelligence is not foreign to them. The only "ability to deny" amounted to an ability to lie to the public. I see no change except that the US electorate is a bit better informed.


The US is behind 7 proxies. They had no idea
 
2013-06-23 12:25:23 PM  

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


The President also declared that he can assassinate US citizens with no due process. The government announced they were going to investigate every journalist, they had the site where you can rat on your neighbors, the IRS now has complete control over your medical records and history and can target you for political affiliations.

We haven't publicly ran over college students in tanks yet, but give us 3 years.
 
2013-06-23 12:26:44 PM  

sprgrss: I grew up in the days of MAD.  Terrorism is a bigger existential threat.  Why?  Because terrorists actually strike.  The US and the USSR were never going to have a hot war.  Neither side was or is suicidal.  Terrorists?  They are.


It's easy to sit here and say in retrospect that the cold war was nothing because the US and the USSR never lobbed nukes at each other, but the consequences of that happening would have been devastating to the whole world, not just those 2 countries.

Terrorists?  Yeah, they do actually strike, but most of the time it's pretty lame in the overall scheme of things.  It's probably little consolation if you or someone close to you is killed in a terrorist attack, but the casualty figures are pretty darned small.

I'm not scared of terrorism.  I'm not scared of nutjobs who arm themselves with "assault weapons" and go on shooting sprees.  I'm more likely to die in a car accident and I'm not particularly scared that will happen.  I do take reasonable precautions.  I wear a seat belt.  My car is equipped with air bags.  I don't drive like a maniac.  Those are reasonable precautions.  I don't confine myself in my own home and have everything delivered for fear of getting in a car accident.  That would be unreasonable.

Probably one of the reasons the US and USSR never went to war is because the leaders of both countries remembered WWII. According to Wikipedia, the US lost 418,500 lives but the Soviet Union lost between 22 and 30 million people.  China lost between 10 and 20 million people.  The total loss of life is somewhere between 60 and 85 million.

The numbers are staggering.  It's not really that surprising that we haven't wanted to repeat that since then and when I say "we" I don't just mean the US.  I mean everyone in the world.

Terrorism barely registers in the grand scheme of deaths due to other than natural causes.
 
2013-06-23 12:27:06 PM  

AndreMA: skullkrusher: You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad

Do you really think the Russians and Chinese weren't already aware that we were spying on them? Can you point to any classified methods or sources that Snowden revealed that were plausibly secret?

(That the local CIA station is in the embassy might be "classified", but please be serious.)


It's usually someone in "communications", and has been for decades. I don't think we really bother hiding it in most cases.
 
2013-06-23 12:29:32 PM  

log_jammin: I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people."


"He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."


Al Franken has always chosen the Entertainment Industry and Tech Industry over the US Citizen. Always. He is a bought and sold whore like the rest of them. You are a partisan fool to trust him.
 
2013-06-23 12:29:49 PM  

Don't Troll Me Bro!: AndreMA: I periodically clean out my "ignore" list.

This appears to be an error.

I tried that once.  First thread I jumped into was a Martin/Zimmerman thread.  That list got repopulated pretty quickly.


Some threads bring out the loons (and I'm sure that some will see me as one of them).

I do wish, though, that there was the ability to suspend the ignore function on a temporary per-thread basis. Some folks have a tendency to threadshiat on particular subjects while still having interesting things to say on others. (Again, others no doubt have that view of me)
 
2013-06-23 12:31:44 PM  

Evil High Priest: And in ten years when Ms. Twatwaffle is considering her Senate run, her esteemed opponent who 'knows a guy' will find all he needs to destroy her.


Yes, that's the way it works and no sitting Senator ever looses their seat. *eyeroll*

This is what pisses me off most about this story: it highlights just how ignorant, paranoid and self-important most Americans are.
 
2013-06-23 12:33:25 PM  

WorldCitizen: The only thing he's handed the Chinese government is a lovely publicity piece by them now being able to throw back into the face of the US its own electronic surveillance of its own people and its electronic espionage (that everyone knew we would be doing anyway) of other countries when we complain about Chinese electronic espionage.


Yup.  This.

He didn't give away anything of value, other than proof that the US is just the same as anyone, and can't claim the moral high ground.  That we are first rate hypocrites when we talk of "freedom."

For that, he will be pilloried.  Because it's really a domestic issue.
 
2013-06-23 12:35:20 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: AndreMA: skullkrusher: You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad

Do you really think the Russians and Chinese weren't already aware that we were spying on them? Can you point to any classified methods or sources that Snowden revealed that were plausibly secret?

(That the local CIA station is in the embassy might be "classified", but please be serious.)

It's usually someone in "communications", and has been for decades. I don't think we really bother hiding it in most cases.


Sure -- but it's likely still technically classified. Just like things classified at a relatively low level that I and millions of others learned in the course of military service.

I'm also sure that what little I recall is completely outdated, useless, was probably useless in 1980, and poses a grave risk of boring to death anyone I were to hypothetically expose it to.
 
2013-06-23 12:36:29 PM  
img.fark.net

img.fark.net

oh please, oh please, oh please, oh please...
 
2013-06-23 12:37:11 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: Yes, that's the way it works and no sitting Senator ever looses their seat. *eyeroll*


Except sex scandals?

/priorities!
 
2013-06-23 12:37:49 PM  
I get the whole debate on whether Snowden is a Hero or a Traitor, but I don't think there is ANY debate that what he did is illegal. When you compare what Daniel Ellsberg did in the 70s vs how Edward Snowden did things it looks both idiotic and sketchy. Ellsberg leaked the pentagon papers to the New York Times and Washington Post after first bringing it before members of congress to try and make it a government issue. Ellsberg stayed in the US and turned himself over to the justice system. Snowden leaks classified information to a foreign newspaper in a highly questionable country that is well known for spying on the US and is on the run now moving from through sketchy countries. Like with Ellsberg it could be found through the courts that what he has done was in the nations best interest... but... I highly doubt that will happen since he is making his case look really bad by leaking to foreign newspapers, staying in sketchy countries and running from the US justice system. If he believes so strongly that what he did was in the best interest of the US he should turn himself in, like Ellsberg did, he can make his case and if the american people and the US justice system agree he will not be found guilty.
 
2013-06-23 12:38:03 PM  
So you point out a corporation is doing sleazy and questionable things and you are  a whistle-blower. You point out your Government is doing sleazy and questionable things and you are a traitor?
Apparently I am not clear on these concepts.
 
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