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(Al Jazeera)   Snowden continues his tour of freedom loving countries   (aljazeera.com) divider line 454
    More: Followup, Hong Kong, Moscow, political freedom, South China Morning Post, Dmitry Peskov  
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9357 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jun 2013 at 5:03 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-23 12:38:03 PM
So you point out a corporation is doing sleazy and questionable things and you are  a whistle-blower. You point out your Government is doing sleazy and questionable things and you are a traitor?
Apparently I am not clear on these concepts.
 
2013-06-23 12:38:46 PM

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


Don't include me in that group.  US torture was created and applauded by conservative Christians, not real Americans.  Filth like that crowd should be ejected from the US for being traitors.

As far as Snowden, he is suck a f**k up that whoever hired him should be brought up on charges as well.
 
2013-06-23 12:39:02 PM
I've long opposed our government's war on privacy. Other than the invasion of Panama it is the most successful war of my lifetime. I hate the legislators who rubberstamp these programs. To me they are the traitors, who everyday rationalize compromising the Constitution.

Of course the only places someone could readily hide are countries who would welcome him as a symbol of the anti American propaganda they feed their people and have enough power to withstand American pressure to extradite him. If I were in his shoes Russia would be at the top of my list because the propaganda value would top the intelligence value and have far longer lasting effect.

It still isn't a good choice but there isn't really a good one available. Meet with Putin, agree to an English language propaganda blog aimed at gaining African support to compete with China for resource development and rallying anti intelligence protestors in the US, and do speaking tours around their sphere of influence on the duplicity of US policies. Book him on the Russian equivalent of Oprah and Letterman as their pet American defector. Let him write some books and give him a proffesorship in some university rehashing the negative side of US government and culture.

Makes far more sense than Iceland unless he is a hardcore Eve Online player.
 
2013-06-23 12:39:52 PM
*such

Angry this morning at the conservative Christians who are destroying this country.
 
2013-06-23 12:45:45 PM

Brian_of_Nazareth: Not to try to push this discussion in a different direction(let's face it, the shiat-tossing on both sides is entertaining), but there's one question nobody seems to have asked yet.  All this data the government is pulling that according to some represents a massive intrusion into personal privacy is coming from corporate servers.  So, apparently you're all fine with Google, AT&T, Verizon, etc having and using this data with oversight only from shareholders, yet it's full-on panic mode when the government gets its hands on this data even though there is, at least ostensibly, some restraint and oversight.  Google watching your email for economic advantage?  All good.  NSA watching your emails because some people are afraid of terrorists?  INVASION OF PRIVACY!111!

We now return you to the regularly scheduled Sunday morning babble-fest.

Cheers.


Actually, I don't think we're all fine with how private businesses use our information.  I've seen a few people praise it because they get ads they want to see instead of random crap that they may or may not be interested in but I am bothered by it.

I was bothered when I found out my employer was selling names of customers 25 years ago.  They viewed it as revenue and since people were willing to buy names and addresses for ~20 cents each and they had thousands of customers every year I can't really blame them for taking advantage of that opportunity but I didn't like what was happening.

I do feel it's worse when the government does it though.  If law enforcement suspects me of a crime they can get a warrant.  Until they get a warrant, they should stay the hell out of my private life though.
 
2013-06-23 12:47:38 PM
This one is for Edward Snowden, Julian Assange and all of the rest of YOU out their riding free!

Steppenwolf - Born To Be Wild

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMbATaj7Il8&feature=player_embedded
 
2013-06-23 12:50:35 PM

AndreMA: Don't Troll Me Bro!: AndreMA: I periodically clean out my "ignore" list.
This appears to be an error.
I tried that once.  First thread I jumped into was a Martin/Zimmerman thread.  That list got repopulated pretty quickly.
Some threads bring out the loons (and I'm sure that some will see me as one of them).
I do wish, though, that there was the ability to suspend the ignore function on a temporary per-thread basis. Some folks have a tendency to threadshiat on particular subjects while still having interesting things to say on others. (Again, others no doubt have that view of me)


I don't get the reason for ignore lists, it seems like self-censoring. Reading the posts of those I consider idiots is part of the fun of a forum like this, isn't it? Also, it's always good to know what the "enemy" is up to.
 
2013-06-23 12:52:06 PM

Dwight_Yeast: This is what pisses me off most about this story: it highlights just how ignorant, paranoid and self-important most Americans are.


They don't hate us because of our freedoms, they don't hate us because of our drones, they hate us because of this.

Their kids are starving and living third world problems. Ours are fat and crying about first world problems.

AndreMA: Except sex scandals?


Tell that to Mike Dewine and Norm Coleman.
 
2013-06-23 12:52:46 PM

AndreMA: Dwight_Yeast: Yes, that's the way it works and no sitting Senator ever looses their seat. *eyeroll*

Except sex scandals?

/priorities!


Politicians are stupid enough to reveal their own sex scandals without any help from the NSA: wittness Anthony Weiner, who posted a shot of his own cock to his twitter feed, or Jonathan Edwards, who knocked up his mistress while his wife was dying of cancer!

When you're spying on people by recording them or tapping their phonecalls, there's something I think of as the "Hoover rule": you can't use the information you gather in that manner without people finding out how you got it.

J Edgar Hoover used to run illegal wiretaps on everyone.  He had recordings of Martin Luther King having sex with various women who weren't his wife. Hoover loathed MLK, but there was nothing he could do with the dirt his had, which only made him madder, as to release it would have revealed the source and the fact that it have been obtained illegally.
 
2013-06-23 12:56:09 PM

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Dwight_Yeast: This is what pisses me off most about this story: it highlights just how ignorant, paranoid and self-important most Americans are.

They don't hate us because of our freedoms, they don't hate us because of our drones, they hate us because of this.


No, I hate us because of this.  Something that's been common knowledge for twenty years shows up on the nightly news, and half the population of this country start behaving like Grandma Mildred, certain that they live in a police state where the NSA is keeping track of whether their panties are clean or not.
 
2013-06-23 12:58:51 PM

AndreMA: Dwight_Yeast: Yes, that's the way it works and no sitting Senator ever looses their seat. *eyeroll*

Except sex scandals?

/priorities!


Unless you are a family-values conservative Christian heterosexual and you ask Jeebus for forgiveness.  Then you're probably OK

img.fark.net
 
2013-06-23 01:00:57 PM

Mrtraveler01: SurfaceTension: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Oliver North?

Or was it that he was all three at once, depending on who you asked?

The fact he's a commentator on Fox News instead of rotting in a prison somewhere is one of the greatest injustices to befall our criminal system.


"If the President does it, then it isn't a crime."  --  Richard Nixon
 
2013-06-23 01:01:45 PM

instantwin: AndreMA: Don't Troll Me Bro!: AndreMA: I periodically clean out my "ignore" list.
This appears to be an error.
I tried that once.  First thread I jumped into was a Martin/Zimmerman thread.  That list got repopulated pretty quickly.
Some threads bring out the loons (and I'm sure that some will see me as one of them).
I do wish, though, that there was the ability to suspend the ignore function on a temporary per-thread basis. Some folks have a tendency to threadshiat on particular subjects while still having interesting things to say on others. (Again, others no doubt have that view of me)

I don't get the reason for ignore lists, it seems like self-censoring. Reading the posts of those I consider idiots is part of the fun of a forum like this, isn't it? Also, it's always good to know what the "enemy" is up to.


It is self-censoring... in the same way that spam filters are.

To use fictitious examples, I don't need to see the same "APOLLO WAS A HOAX!" nonsense by the same persons in every thread even remotely related to manned spaceflight... or "9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB!!!1!!one!" in every discussion that even touches on terrorism. There's no novelty or interest left in those subjects for me.

Of course if you enjoy that, more power to you.

/ain't nobody got time for that
 
2013-06-23 01:06:24 PM

Anti_illuminati: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

National conversation? You mean the media failing to do any kind of actual analysis and armchair political activists like the teenagers over on Reddit whining about privacy, but at the same time posting random pics of creepos and fat people they take in public? This is no more a public issue than Kanye naming his baby North West. It is not smug to be privy to the same information that's been happening in the country for decades, nor the reaction the country takes. I'm sure the ones who are actually not surprised about this situation are the ones  actually doing something about it.


Well, there are journalists of integrity like Michael Hastings who...oh wait.
 
2013-06-23 01:09:27 PM
today in the news, sarah palin decries the loss of the fourth amendment. While completely ignoring that her retard congress can stop the spying in a quick majority vote.

/Other countries wait for bush jr and dick cheney to visit so those traitors of freedom can be put on trial for 'crimes against humanity'
//Except canada of course, as harper is the republicans servant.
 
2013-06-23 01:13:49 PM

Lsherm: I hope they kill him.  He's not a hero, he's a narcissist with an overinflated sense of self-worth who has deluded himself into thinking he's done something good.  He hasn't.  He's just been giving away US intelligence secrets because he's too stupid to do anything else.

When he dies, and it will be soon, I hope it is painful.


Have a big bowl of "go fark yourself" for breakfast this morning. Don't worry about paying for it. It's on me.
 
2013-06-23 01:19:37 PM

OgreMagi: Dude!  You're undermining your entire stance!  If you go to North Korea I'm going to have to side with the government.  I don't want to side with the farking government!  So don't do that!


how do any personal circumstances, short of selling intelligence to u.s. enemies, undermine his stance? so what if he goes to a country that is actively adverse to the u.s. if that means he can maintain his freedom? hasn't he done enough for us? must he also be a martyr?
hell, the pentagon papers were a retrospective look at stuff that had gone on many year earlier and well after the abuses and lies had run their natural course.
they don't come close to this.
Snowden risked his life and liberty (and moreover a nice life making 200k and living with stripper in Hawaii as a 27 year old) when he had no legal, moral or professional responsibility to the citizens of the united states, but he still did so to uncover for us the raping of the u.s. constitution.
he's up there with sergeant york among the greatest heroes of the last century. actually it's doubtful there has ever been more heroic action taken by an American since the revolutionary war.
 
2013-06-23 01:20:55 PM

wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.




Where is the gleeful joy?
 
2013-06-23 01:21:59 PM

log_jammin: I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people."


"He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."


Look, don't try to distract people from their crusade against the windmills.  Those things are NSA eavesdropping stations, can't you see?
 
2013-06-23 01:24:22 PM

MurphyMurphy: Wherever he goes, Snowden's going to have to be very careful where he picks up his connecting flights.


And which airports those flights have designated for dropping off "problem passengers".  All the US needs to do is hire a plant to catch the same plane, and start making a commotion at the right time.
 
2013-06-23 01:24:50 PM

Evil High Priest: Biological Ali: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.

Right, because we were this close to addressing this problem before Snowden did his thing. Darn him!


It doesn't matter how far away you thought reform was before Snowden, the point is that it's much, much farther now because of his idiocy. The most damaging part of all of this is the the massive flood of misinformation sweeping across the internet due to people like him and Greenwald (and no, I don't buy Greenwald's excuse of "Oh I didn't claim anything; I just presented a leading message and let people draw their own conclusions"; I still hold him responsible). Obviously you're not going to see much in the way of positive reform based on the outrage of someone whose premise is fundamentally flawed to begin with.

Before the "national conversation" can even start to approach something resembling sane and constructive political discourse, all of this will have to die down - this includes more or less anyone calling Snowden a "whistleblower" or suggesting that he brought to life information about something that was "illegal" or "unconstitutional". Of course, the one bit of good news is that said outrage isn't that significant to begin with; it seems more an internet subculture thing than a genuine political movement.

The serious media outlets have more or less let it go and are just focusing on stories about Snowden himself, but even that's just a pointless distraction; the sooner his little story gets resolved, the better.
 
2013-06-23 01:27:31 PM

nekulor: Lsherm: I hope they kill him.  He's not a hero, he's a narcissist with an overinflated sense of self-worth who has deluded himself into thinking he's done something good.  He hasn't.  He's just been giving away US intelligence secrets because he's too stupid to do anything else.

When he dies, and it will be soon, I hope it is painful.

Have a big bowl of "go fark yourself" for breakfast this morning. Don't worry about paying for it. It's on me.


Hey, now. Lsherm is a very valuable FARK resource!!  He's an infallible derpometer: The more he hates something, the more you can be sure it's a good thing!

Snowden seems a bit weaselly, but until we have a press that does it's fkn job, I say keep the Assanges/Mannings/Snowdens coming.
 
2013-06-23 01:27:38 PM

generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]


So as long as you reveal classified information to a journalist, it doesn't matter if it's about how we're trying to hack Medvedev's phone, it's ok?
 
2013-06-23 01:32:12 PM

StoPPeRmobile: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

Where is the gleeful joy?


And what a joke of a national conversation this turned out to be.

Has there been any positive reforms being proposed to scale this back or have we only gone so far as to say "OMG...GOVERNMENT IS SPYING ON US!!! LET'S PANIC!!!"

Because to be this looks like an opportunity being squandered by the tin-fol hat brigade in this country.

/Gave up hope that programs like these would ever be scaled back
 
2013-06-23 01:33:00 PM

Lionel Mandrake: nekulor: Lsherm: I hope they kill him.  He's not a hero, he's a narcissist with an overinflated sense of self-worth who has deluded himself into thinking he's done something good.  He hasn't.  He's just been giving away US intelligence secrets because he's too stupid to do anything else.

When he dies, and it will be soon, I hope it is painful.

Have a big bowl of "go fark yourself" for breakfast this morning. Don't worry about paying for it. It's on me.

Hey, now. Lsherm is a very valuable FARK resource!!  He's an infallible derpometer: The more he hates something, the more you can be sure it's a good thing!

Snowden seems a bit weaselly, but until we have a press that does it's fkn job, I say keep the Assanges/Mannings/Snowdens coming.


This.
 
2013-06-23 01:34:25 PM
Actually, I should amend my previous statement somewhat - the one potentially positive thing for the US that's likely to emerge from this mess is the intelligence agencies tightening up and making sure that people like Snowden don't get anywhere near anything important from now on.
 
2013-06-23 01:36:22 PM

Biological Ali: Actually, I should amend my previous statement somewhat - the one potentially positive thing for the US that's likely to emerge from this mess is the intelligence agencies tightening up and making sure that people like Snowden don't get anywhere near anything important from now on.


That way they can tap us without us knowing.

Awesome!
 
2013-06-23 01:38:13 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Snowden seems a bit weaselly, but until we have a press that does it's fkn job, I say keep the Assanges/Mannings/Snowdens coming.


Manning could have been forgiven being wrong about "Collateral Murder" and just written-off as having a strong moral center.  But releasing 250,000 pages of stuff whose content he couldn't have been familiar with cannot be defended as serving a greater moral purpose.

If Snowden doesn't even have THAT going for him.
 
2013-06-23 01:43:00 PM

Mrtraveler01: Has there been any positive reforms being proposed to scale this back or have we only gone so far as to say "OMG...GOVERNMENT IS SPYING ON US!!! LET'S PANIC!!!"

Because to be this looks like an opportunity being squandered by the tin-fol hat brigade in this country.


If you look at the posts in this thread, you'll see that they're too busy shiatting themselves with glee over how the government will do away with Snowden, and the rest are in the Michael Hastings thread, speculating on how the government "got" him.
 
2013-06-23 01:46:35 PM

Dwight_Yeast: Mrtraveler01: Has there been any positive reforms being proposed to scale this back or have we only gone so far as to say "OMG...GOVERNMENT IS SPYING ON US!!! LET'S PANIC!!!"

Because to be this looks like an opportunity being squandered by the tin-fol hat brigade in this country.

If you look at the posts in this thread, you'll see that they're too busy shiatting themselves with glee over how the government will do away with Snowden, and the rest are in the Michael Hastings thread, speculating on how the government "got" him.


I know. I've given up hope that we can actually be productive with issues like these and actually make some positive reforms to how the CIA/NSA/ETC does business thanks to paranoid morons like those.
 
2013-06-23 01:48:53 PM

Biological Ali: Actually, I should amend my previous statement somewhat - the one potentially positive thing for the US that's likely to emerge from this mess is the intelligence agencies tightening up and making sure that people like Snowden don't get anywhere near anything important from now on.


It's always great when a borderline fascist surveillance state exists without our explicit knowledge!

Staatssicherheit, indeed.
 
2013-06-23 01:49:06 PM

Biological Ali: Actually, I should amend my previous statement somewhat - the one potentially positive thing for the US that's likely to emerge from this mess is the intelligence agencies tightening up and making sure that people like Snowden don't get anywhere near anything important from now on.


The most interesting thing for the American public, and the Russian and Chinese governments, is that none of those three are the current major player in spying.

Sneaky old Britain

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world-co mm unications-nsa .
 
2013-06-23 01:51:30 PM

quatchi: Andromeda: quatchi: "Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...

Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with?  If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.

I'm thinking that he's thinking that the more publicity he attracts not just in the US but globally the larger his chances of survival increase and also that by doing it this way at the very least it keeps the story in heavy rotation in the notoriously fickle corporate media with it's "Squirrel? Where?!" cycles.

It's a story that he's basically given up all hope of a normal life for and it seems to be working so far

I could be wrong, obviously, this is all pure speculation and I'm half asleep and at cruising altitude.


NSA employee travel outside of the U.S., even if personal, has to be approved a minimum of thirty days in advance.
 
2013-06-23 01:51:45 PM

digistil: That the US govt has direct access to corp. servers like Google and Facebook, and that a warrant isn't needed to request private information on a person.


It has already been established that the warrant requests are never denied, which is the same thing as not needed a warrant.  And Google rolls over and does whatever the Chinese government asks it to do, why would it bother standing up to the US government?
 
2013-06-23 01:53:55 PM

Dwight_Yeast: Something that's been common knowledge for twenty years shows up on the nightly news, and half the population of this country start behaving like Grandma Mildred, certain that they live in a police state where the NSA is keeping track of whether their panties are clean or not.


If it was common knowledge, would it be news to half the population?
 
2013-06-23 01:55:44 PM
Apologists.  Apologists everywhere.

This has really diminished my opinion of liberals here.

More so.

And |I've always voted liberal, so, well, there's that.
 
2013-06-23 01:58:15 PM

relcec: OgreMagi: Dude!  You're undermining your entire stance!  If you go to North Korea I'm going to have to side with the government.  I don't want to side with the farking government!  So don't do that!

how do any personal circumstances, short of selling intelligence to u.s. enemies, undermine his stance? so what if he goes to a country that is actively adverse to the u.s. if that means he can maintain his freedom? hasn't he done enough for us? must he also be a martyr?
hell, the pentagon papers were a retrospective look at stuff that had gone on many year earlier and well after the abuses and lies had run their natural course.
they don't come close to this.
Snowden risked his life and liberty (and moreover a nice life making 200k and living with stripper in Hawaii as a 27 year old) when he had no legal, moral or professional responsibility to the citizens of the united states, but he still did so to uncover for us the raping of the u.s. constitution.
he's up there with sergeant york among the greatest heroes of the last century. actually it's doubtful there has ever been more heroic action taken by an American since the revolutionary war.


get off the crack
 
2013-06-23 02:00:44 PM

kpaxoid: quatchi: Andromeda: quatchi: "Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...

Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with?  If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.

I'm thinking that he's thinking that the more publicity he attracts not just in the US but globally the larger his chances of survival increase and also that by doing it this way at the very least it keeps the story in heavy rotation in the notoriously fickle corporate media with it's "Squirrel? Where?!" cycles.

It's a story that he's basically given up all hope of a normal life for and it seems to be working so far

I could be wrong, obviously, this is all pure speculation and I'm half asleep and at cruising altitude.

NSA Any security clearance holding employee travel outside of the U.S., even if personal, has to be approved a minimum of thirty days in advance.


FTFY
 
2013-06-23 02:03:44 PM

Slaxl: digistil: MurphyMurphy: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Anyone that ever tried to make a difference.

I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

I sorta stopped following it, so I missed that, and I can't google at the moment because I'm wearing a towel. What intel did he give to the Chinese military, and what sources of intel did he give up?


Why would that stop you? Do you Google w/ your peener or something?
 
2013-06-23 02:04:20 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Biological Ali: Actually, I should amend my previous statement somewhat - the one potentially positive thing for the US that's likely to emerge from this mess is the intelligence agencies tightening up and making sure that people like Snowden don't get anywhere near anything important from now on.

That way they can tap us without us knowing.

Awesome!


you heard the man, the most dangerous part of this all is greenwalds campaign of misinformation to slander his beloved president.
its certainly not a creeping police and surveillance state attached to a political class that is bent on abolishing the 4th amendment by secret administrative process that even most members of congress had no idea about.
but it kept you safe!

/what is more dangerous?

a handful of pissed off cave dwellers from the dark ages studying a book written by another cave dweller that has been dead for 1300 years;

or the fact these farklib nutjobs are trying to convince every citizen that the notion that massive, unpaticularized, and indiscriminate data sweeps of communication by hundreds of millions of americans (that have never in the history of FISA court been turned down btw) can be retained and queried (if it contains any evidence of criminality) can somehow be squared with the constitutional demand that we be personally secure from GOVERNMENT searches unless a warrant is issued by a magistrate that is based on specific evidence of a particularized nature that crime is afoot and where evidence of it is to be found?
 
2013-06-23 02:06:41 PM

sendtodave: Dwight_Yeast: Something that's been common knowledge for twenty years shows up on the nightly news, and half the population of this country start behaving like Grandma Mildred, certain that they live in a police state where the NSA is keeping track of whether their panties are clean or not.

If it was common knowledge, would it be news to half the population?


Probably because they're too busy watching reality TV than paying attention to what's actually going on in the world.

As I pointed out before, Frontline has produced several excellent documentaries on what the NSA has been up over the last decade or so, all of which can be viewed online for free.

I'm reminded of Dorothy Parker's use of the word "horticulture": You can lead a whore to culture,but you can't make her think.  Likewise, you can tell the American people that the government is monitoring their phone calls and internet usage, but until it interrupts Dancing with the Stars, it's not actually news.
 
2013-06-23 02:07:03 PM

letrole: Chelsea Clinton Is Carrot Tops Lost Twin:
redacted list of terms that mark the poster as a clueless loon

What are you bufoons trying to accomplish with this shiat? Are you going to crash the system? Tie up human resources with a decoy post that some analyst will evidently have to go read since it contains magic words? Prove the 31337 config of your seven proxies?


Phhhhht. We're gonna hack the Gibson, baby. Fark yeah!
 
2013-06-23 02:09:59 PM

relcec: or the fact these farklib nutjobs are trying to convince every citizen that the notion that massive, unpaticularized, and indiscriminate data sweeps of communication by hundreds of millions of americans (that have never in the history of FISA court been turned down btw) can be retained and queried (if it contains any evidence of criminality) can somehow be squared with the constitutional demand that we be personally secure from GOVERNMENT searches unless a warrant is issued by a magistrate that is based on specific evidence of a particularized nature that crime is afoot and where evidence of it is to be found?


I'm a lib.  I am on fark.

I cannot see any excuse for what the government is doing in the name of security.  My bias, actually, says that this would make sense if it happened under Bush, that it is happening now shakes my faith in Democrats holding the moral high ground.

I mean, I'll probably still vote for them due to social wedge issues.   But that's the only difference I'm seeing at this point.
 
2013-06-23 02:10:52 PM
who is actually more dangerous to americans?
the biological alli's of the world who spread their nonesense for hours each and every day of the year?
or Ayman al-Zawahiri?
 
2013-06-23 02:12:03 PM

Dwight_Yeast: I'm reminded of Dorothy Parker's use of the word "horticulture": You can lead a whore to culture,but you can't make her think. Likewise, you can tell the American people that the government is monitoring their phone calls and internet usage, but until it interrupts Dancing with the Stars, it's not actually news.


But isn't it a good thing that it is new now?

That they are paying attention, and are a bit upset over it?

Is  the problem that they are finally upset over it when it is politically inconvenient?
 
2013-06-23 02:12:20 PM

gfid: Brian_of_Nazareth: Not to try to push this discussion in a different direction(let's face it, the shiat-tossing on both sides is entertaining), but there's one question nobody seems to have asked yet.  All this data the government is pulling that according to some represents a massive intrusion into personal privacy is coming from corporate servers.  So, apparently you're all fine with Google, AT&T, Verizon, etc having and using this data with oversight only from shareholders, yet it's full-on panic mode when the government gets its hands on this data even though there is, at least ostensibly, some restraint and oversight.  Google watching your email for economic advantage?  All good.  NSA watching your emails because some people are afraid of terrorists?  INVASION OF PRIVACY!111!

We now return you to the regularly scheduled Sunday morning babble-fest.

Cheers.

Actually, I don't think we're all fine with how private businesses use our information.  I've seen a few people praise it because they get ads they want to see instead of random crap that they may or may not be interested in but I am bothered by it.

I was bothered when I found out my employer was selling names of customers 25 years ago.  They viewed it as revenue and since people were willing to buy names and addresses for ~20 cents each and they had thousands of customers every year I can't really blame them for taking advantage of that opportunity but I didn't like what was happening.

I do feel it's worse when the government does it though.  If law enforcement suspects me of a crime they can get a warrant.  Until they get a warrant, they should stay the hell out of my private life though.


You're right, I probably shouldn't have generalised to everybody.  That said, I think the risk is larger from the corporations than the government.  I have no doubt that any evidence of a crime you may have committed that is discovered by the NSA (or any other member of the Alphabet Soup Club) would not be shared with law enforcement, and if it was any half-assed lawyer should be able to get it excluded.  In other words, an American being arrested (other than for something terrorism related, and even then it's a stretch) because of something the NSA found as a result of this data collection is about as likely as Obama coming to take away your guns.

The corporations that collect this data have almost no meaningful oversight, since any consequences for being caught misusing the data are far outweighed by the financial advantages.  Google's on-going spat with the UK because of privacy issues related to StreetView data collection being a good example.  Of course, we should also remember that the government is still much better at protecting your information than corporations (based on the personal observation that we hear about data leaks from corporations much more frequently than we hear about government leaks).

I guess my point was that it seems at best myopic to be screaming about the government in this issue without at least considering the role the corporations involved are playing.

Cheers.
 
2013-06-23 02:13:29 PM

Satanic_Hamster: yagottabefarkinkiddinme: I can't even have phone sex with my wife without a NSA 3-way. Fark that noise.

Yes.  You're SO interesting that the NSA is listening to your phone conversations.




I've been hearing that argument for a long time.
 
2013-06-23 02:13:47 PM

WorldCitizen: sprgrss


We don't have to play the "what might've happened" game.  We know what happened.  There was no hot war between the Soviets and the United States.  Terrorists have attacked and will continue to attack.  That's why terrorism is a real existential threat.
 
2013-06-23 02:14:24 PM

sendtodave: relcec: or the fact these farklib nutjobs are trying to convince every citizen that the notion that massive, unpaticularized, and indiscriminate data sweeps of communication by hundreds of millions of americans (that have never in the history of FISA court been turned down btw) can be retained and queried (if it contains any evidence of criminality) can somehow be squared with the constitutional demand that we be personally secure from GOVERNMENT searches unless a warrant is issued by a magistrate that is based on specific evidence of a particularized nature that crime is afoot and where evidence of it is to be found?

I'm a lib.  I am on fark.

I cannot see any excuse for what the government is doing in the name of security.  My bias, actually, says that this would make sense if it happened under Bush, that it is happening now shakes my faith in Democrats holding the moral high ground.

I mean, I'll probably still vote for them due to social wedge issues.   But that's the only difference I'm seeing at this point.


Same.

I'm pretty disheartened by both sides and have given up hope that things will change for the better in this regard.
 
2013-06-23 02:15:53 PM

sendtodave: Dwight_Yeast: I'm reminded of Dorothy Parker's use of the word "horticulture": You can lead a whore to culture,but you can't make her think. Likewise, you can tell the American people that the government is monitoring their phone calls and internet usage, but until it interrupts Dancing with the Stars, it's not actually news.

But isn't it a good thing that it is new now?

That they are paying attention, and are a bit upset over it?

Is  the problem that they are finally upset over it when it is politically inconvenient?


I think the problem is that nothing is being done to push any reforms concerning the actions of the NSA.

I mean it's fine to get people outraged about this but if nothing is going to be done to change what is going on, then this is all just a waste of time.
 
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