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(Al Jazeera)   Snowden continues his tour of freedom loving countries   (aljazeera.com) divider line 453
    More: Followup, Hong Kong, Moscow, political freedom, South China Morning Post, Dmitry Peskov  
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9366 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jun 2013 at 5:03 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-23 09:01:32 AM  

doczoidberg: All he did was tell the public what its own government was doing.

Anyone who thinks this is "treason" is kind of a dumbass.


Treason is a very specific charge in this country, defined in our constitution.

And this doesn't even come close. They're not even charging him with espionage.
 
2013-06-23 09:01:41 AM  

SomeoneDumb: The more I hear about this guy, the farther down my list he goes.


Disagree. The Guardian here in the UK is still releasing information supplied by Snowdon about UK data mining of any international traffic that touches out shore. OK, we might need to do this, but the decision should be in the public domain not based on "reinterpreting" an old law.

It is also interesting that the NSA is off-shoring their data collection to the UK where is it not subject to US democratic control.
 
2013-06-23 09:02:07 AM  

Andromeda: quatchi: "Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...

Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with?  If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.


It's pretty obvious. He wanted to be somewhere that had geo-political reasons to protect a person who'd pissed off US elites, and also had the umph to do so successfully. Ecuador and Iceland are sometimes willing to take a stand on these issues, but neither could really do anything to stop the US military if our gov decided to snatch somebody from them, and both are susceptible to US "soft-power" in various ways. Snatching a person under CCP protection out of Hong Kong, however, would be a major international incident.
 
2013-06-23 09:02:43 AM  

Mrtraveler01: Heron: Cuba isn't very democratic. Iceland and Venezuela are still options at this point.

If by that you mean Venezuela appears to be democratic.


"..well, I was thinking Cuba"
"Sorry to disappoint you, Mr Snowden, But Cuba is not democratic. How about Iceland or Venezuela?"
"Iceland? brrrrr"
 
2013-06-23 09:03:42 AM  

Dear Mr. Putin,


Please return this jackhole to us in a coffin, and you can keep the Super Bowl ring.

 
2013-06-23 09:06:01 AM  

LewDux: "Iceland? brrrrr"


yeah but his ping rate while playing eve online will be awesome!
 
2013-06-23 09:07:52 AM  
Go Snow Go
 
2013-06-23 09:08:08 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: They're not even charging him with espionage.


They're going to give him a long, drawn out slap on the wrist and he will never get close to an intelligence agency ever again.  Right now, he's just trying to secure a reality show and a book deal. I think that was his intention from the beginning.
 
2013-06-23 09:08:36 AM  
img.fark.net
 
2013-06-23 09:11:12 AM  

digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?


Anyone who opposed the Iraq War in 2003, according to anyone on the right at the time.

/hey, you asked.
 
2013-06-23 09:13:14 AM  

log_jammin: Heron: nothing he said was a lie.

You say that with authority. How do you know that's true?


Because I've seen the Verizon court order. If a telecom turns over all the data they have on a specific server to any other entity, whatever rules that entity says will govern how they look at that data is irrelevant due to the simple fact that they now have all of it. Possessing it, they can do whatever the hell they want with it, whenever they want, and if there isn't someone there looking over their shoulder to police their use, then whatever they tell you about safe-guards and regulations is nothing but hot-air and window-dressing.

This isn't hard people. If they weren't doing questionably legal things with your data that they knew would piss you off, then they wouldn't keep it secret in the first place, nor go to the lengths they do to punish people who reveal their actions. If the folks in the government and the spying bureaus genuinely thought they had the Constitutional authority to carry out these programs, they'd never have tried to hide them to begin with.
 
2013-06-23 09:14:04 AM  

Mrtraveler01: thamike: doczoidberg: All he did was tell the public what its own government was doing.

Anyone who thinks this is "treason" is kind of a dumbass.

Leaking secrets is technically treason.  Anyone who thinks about this emotionally is kind of a dumbass.  Anyone who wasn't aware that the NSA can look at his phone records is a particularly lost dumbass.

Were people actually shocked when this news came out?

But he's right. Leaving emotion out of this, technically he's committing treason (the best kind of treason). How can you leak government secrets and not be accused of treason is beyond me.


Because treason is specifically defined in the U.S. Constitution as providing aid and comfort to America's enemies during wartime? Whatever young Snowden's done, he hasn't done that.
 
2013-06-23 09:14:38 AM  

Mrtraveler01: SurfaceTension: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Oliver North?

Or was it that he was all three at once, depending on who you asked?

The fact he's a commentator on Fox News instead of rotting in a prison somewhere is one of the greatest injustices to befall our criminal system.


Agreed
 
2013-06-23 09:17:16 AM  
quatchi:I'm thinking that he's thinking that the more publicity he attracts not just in the US but globally the larger his chances of survival increase and also that by doing it this way at the very least it keeps the story in heavy rotation in the notoriously fickle corporate media with it's "Squirrel? Where?!" cycles.

img.fark.net

Actually, that is a pretty good analogy for how corporate media behaves.
 
2013-06-23 09:19:53 AM  

vinniethepoo: Because treason is specifically defined in the U.S. Constitution as providing aid and comfort to America's enemies during wartime? Whatever young Snowden's done, he hasn't done that.


It's a good thing he isn't charged with treason then.

Al-Awlaki?  That guy committed treason, and he was given the aforementioned punishment.  He's another darling of the Fark Freedom League.
 
2013-06-23 09:19:58 AM  

tbhouston: Next stop Cuba


Google how that turned out for all those hijackers in the 60s and 70s.

He's going to have a real good time.
 
2013-06-23 09:23:42 AM  
Why all the hate for Cuba suddenly? From all I've read here over the years I thought Cuba was a worker's paradise.
 
2013-06-23 09:23:44 AM  

letrole: Chelsea Clinton Is Carrot Tops Lost Twin:
redacted list of terms that mark the poster as a clueless loon

What are you bufoons trying to accomplish with this shiat? Are you going to crash the system? Tie up human resources with a decoy post that some analyst will evidently have to go read since it contains magic words? Prove the 31337 config of your seven proxies?


Ride a bike to work wearing spandex stretch trousers?
 
2013-06-23 09:25:13 AM  
To people who are saying he's guilty of treason, here is the definition of treason under US law:

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

He's not guilty of treason, and people who are saying he is are ignorant of the law. Espionage he may be guilty of, but not treason, not under US law.
 
2013-06-23 09:26:18 AM  
Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it, "all men are created equal except negroes." When the Know-nothings get control, it will read, "all men are created equal except negroes and foreigners and Catholics." When it comes to this, I shall prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty--to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.

Abraham Lincoln
 
2013-06-23 09:27:35 AM  

Heron: Because I've seen the Verizon court order.


you're a farking retard.
 
2013-06-23 09:28:58 AM  

Heron: If the folks in the government and the spying bureaus genuinely thought they had the Constitutional authority to carry out these programs, they'd never have tried to hide them to begin with.


oh wait. you topped yourself.
 
2013-06-23 09:33:24 AM  

wisher21: To people who are saying he's guilty of treason, here is the definition of treason under US law:

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

He's not guilty of treason, and people who are saying he is are ignorant of the law. Espionage he may be guilty of, but not treason, not under US law.


I don't even think he's guilty of espionage, not under U.S. law. This whole thing has been blown out of proportion in every direction by the media.  The guy is insignificant.  The info he leaked is moot, vis a vis enemies of the U.S.  Nothing about this is special.  Illegal, maybe, but hardly a bombshell.  Doesn't change the fact that he shouldn't be anywhere near classified information.
 
2013-06-23 09:37:33 AM  

letrole: All this privacy fetish rubbish is certainly amusing.

If you leave your front door, walk down the street, get a taxi, so on and so forth, and this chain of events is recorded on CCTV tapes for playback-- it's simply not an invasion of your privacy.

If you communicate on an infrastructure that you neither built, own, nor maintain, then anything you transmit can likewise be stored -- and subject to the same analysis.

Expectations of privacy are very much in line with Rights.

You have the right to do whatever you can conceive and achieve solely through your own efforts. But, if someone is required or compelled or obligated to provide assistance, then that thing you wish to do is not a right. It is rather a *privilege*.

So you do have a right to privacy in a locked room that you actually own, with windows drawn and guests of your own choosing. But not on the telephone or interweb. For those sorts of communications, administrators and technicians and system owners must cooperate with you so that you can achieve what you wish to do. Again, it's a privilege that comes with paying a phone bill.


Agreed to a point. As an grizzled oldster, I see the facebook/twitter people to whom oversharing is a meaningless word worrying government warrantless wiretapping. Facebook is continually jumping through hoops to provide finer and finer granularity on what people can publish and exactly how much.

Try applying for a job related to DoD work nowadays, even if unclassified. Not everyone can work at Google or Apple.
 
2013-06-23 09:37:52 AM  
thamike posted:

"I don't even think he's guilty of espionage, not under U.S. law. This whole thing has been blown out of proportion in every direction by the media. The guy is insignificant. The info he leaked is moot, vis a vis enemies of the U.S. Nothing about this is special. Illegal, maybe, but hardly a bombshell. Doesn't change the fact that he shouldn't be anywhere near classified information."


Ah yes, the "what's the big deal, I already knew about this" refrain. Thanks for the hard hitting, in-depth analysis thamike, it's fascinating.
 
2013-06-23 09:41:12 AM  

IlGreven: Well, hey, when the U.S. is acting like a communist country on this issue, you might as well make your way to a couple of 'em. Y'know, just to see how it really feels.


Huh? There are no true Communist countries anymore... if ever.
 
2013-06-23 09:42:13 AM  

wisher21: Ah yes, the "what's the big deal, I already knew about this" refrain. Thanks for the hard hitting, in-depth analysis thamike, it's fascinating.


It's not my fault you look to me for your news.  At least I know why I'm not spazzing out about this.
 
2013-06-23 09:42:44 AM  
It's great how this whole scandal is focusing entirely on Snowden himself and the program when it's overlooking another big factor:

WE'RE farkING OUTSOURCING INTELLIGENCE.

PMCs are bad enough, but now we're not just outsourcing... basically every job the military does except getting shot. We're outsourcing handling the farking secrets that are supposed to keep this country safe. How is this acceptable? How far have we fallen and how much are we lurching towards a Blade Runner/Shadowrun future by basically turning corporations in the organizations that "protect" us in every way.
 
2013-06-23 09:43:12 AM  

wisher21: thamike posted:

"I don't even think he's guilty of espionage, not under U.S. law. This whole thing has been blown out of proportion in every direction by the media. The guy is insignificant. The info he leaked is moot, vis a vis enemies of the U.S. Nothing about this is special. Illegal, maybe, but hardly a bombshell. Doesn't change the fact that he shouldn't be anywhere near classified information."


Ah yes, the "what's the big deal, I already knew about this" refrain. Thanks for the hard hitting, in-depth analysis thamike, it's fascinating.


Uh it has been common knowledge that the NSA was doing this for years even before the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act really just made certain questionable things they were already doing legal.

There have been numerous Frontline reports over the last decade on this very subject.
 
2013-06-23 09:47:56 AM  
Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.
 
2013-06-23 09:50:31 AM  

wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.


And what is going to be done to change this?
 
2013-06-23 09:50:56 AM  

wisher21: No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were.


It certainly seems to be getting you all riled up.

Meanwhile, nobody blames phone companies for throwing around their personal info.  That would make them bad consumers.

Pardon me if double standards and cherry-picked outrage is not my idea of fun.
 
2013-06-23 09:51:48 AM  

Mrtraveler01: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

And what is going to be done to change this?


PRISM will be shuttered.  In ten years, some flunkie will tell us all about SRIMP.
 
2013-06-23 09:52:14 AM  
Traitor is a traitor, doesn't matter where he stops he's eating a bullet.
 
2013-06-23 09:53:00 AM  

Misconduc: Traitor is a traitor, doesn't matter where he stops he's eating a bullet.


Blargh.
 
2013-06-23 09:54:14 AM  

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


You do know that everyone does that, right?  It is big boy pants for countries.  We also let people marry cactii and collect unemployment for injured ankles.
/Can't wait to read this guy's obituary
//Planeload of wikileaks lawyers jokes after this....
 
2013-06-23 09:54:46 AM  

wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.


The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.
 
2013-06-23 09:58:35 AM  
Right, so I don't even post on fark anymore as it's way too much noise. Think what you'd like, it's nothing I care to discuss here, for the same reason I don't read youtube comments.

I'll leave you with this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNsePZj_Yks
 
2013-06-23 09:58:46 AM  

Biological Ali: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.


It's happening with increasing regularity--the media outlets start barking out headlines, to which I react with "duh.  there has to be more to this" only to find out that there's even less to this.
 
2013-06-23 09:59:49 AM  
When releasing US Government secrets for the "good of Americans", it's kinda hurts your creditability when you hide out in places like China and Russia, two countries with a long history of trying to obtain US Government secrets and have the deep pockets to pay off people in your position to get them.
 
2013-06-23 10:00:00 AM  
He reminds me of a younger, nerdier Oliver North.

If only Reagan were here, he'd know what to do.
 
2013-06-23 10:00:00 AM  

wisher21: Right, so I don't even post on fark anymore as it's way too much noise.


He says in a post on Fark--not even his last in this thread.
 
2013-06-23 10:00:01 AM  

Biological Ali: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.


Basically this.

Neither side is talking about serious reforms and the only thing that's resulted from this is that people's hyperbole has been ratcheted up a notch.

What positive reforms are going to come out of this "national conversation"?
 
2013-06-23 10:01:11 AM  

Andromeda: Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with? If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.


I suspect because he was a dumbass.
 
2013-06-23 10:05:07 AM  

Biological Ali: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.


Yup. You've put your finger on why I'm apathetic about this: it's a classic "The dog barks but the caravan rolls on" situation, and as soon as something more flashy happens, the media will drop this and nothing will have changed.

The only thing to come out of it is the addmission by various high-ranking Congressional Republicans that they don't feel the law goes far enough and  they'd like to expand data-collection.
 
2013-06-23 10:05:30 AM  

wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.


National conversation? You mean the media failing to do any kind of actual analysis and armchair political activists like the teenagers over on Reddit whining about privacy, but at the same time posting random pics of creepos and fat people they take in public? This is no more a public issue than Kanye naming his baby North West. It is not smug to be privy to the same information that's been happening in the country for decades, nor the reaction the country takes. I'm sure the ones who are actually not surprised about this situation are the ones  actually doing something about it.
 
2013-06-23 10:06:20 AM  

Mrtraveler01: What positive reforms are going to come out of this "national conversation"?


I think a lot of these people were either in grade school or just not paying attention a decade ago, when this legislation was in its infancy and was basically a blank check to all the agencies, even ones that don't have any business having it.

It's sort of like people who think terrorism is the biggest existential threat America has ever faced, and they say that with a straight face to people who grew up during the days of Mutually Assured Destruction.
 
2013-06-23 10:08:07 AM  

letrole: Chelsea Clinton Is Carrot Tops Lost Twin:
redacted list of terms that mark the poster as a clueless loon

What are you bufoons trying to accomplish with this shiat? Are you going to crash the system? Tie up human resources with a decoy post that some analyst will evidently have to go read since it contains magic words? Prove the 31337 config of your seven proxies?


1.  Assert my rights.

2.  Define "crash the system".  What system are you referring to?

3.  Abso-farking-lutely.

4.  No proxies here.  If Obama and the rest of the congress traitors want to come and get me; they can have at it.

www.punjabigraphics.com
 
2013-06-23 10:11:38 AM  

OgreMagi: Dude!  You're undermining your entire stance!  If you go to North Korea I'm going to have to side with the government.  I don't want to side with the farking government!  So don't do that!


Where did you come up with that? TFA did not contain the string "Korea" -- either north or south -- in any context.
 
2013-06-23 10:15:00 AM  

kimmygibblershomework: You do know that everyone does that, right? It is big boy pants for countries. We also let people marry cactii and collect unemployment for injured ankles.
/Can't wait to read this guy's obituary
//Planeload of wikileaks lawyers jokes after this....


Speaking of collecting unemployment...  That's another thing I've been wondering.  What the hell is this dumbass' plan?  Does he just plan on living on the charity of others the rest of his life?  Who the hell would hire this guy?
 
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