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(Al Jazeera)   Snowden continues his tour of freedom loving countries   (aljazeera.com) divider line 454
    More: Followup, Hong Kong, Moscow, political freedom, South China Morning Post, Dmitry Peskov  
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9357 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jun 2013 at 5:03 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-23 05:06:41 AM
Next stop Cuba
 
Juc
2013-06-23 05:07:09 AM
Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.
 
2013-06-23 05:07:21 AM
a licky boom boom down
 
2013-06-23 05:07:33 AM
Well, hey, when the U.S. is acting like a communist country on this issue, you might as well make your way to a couple of 'em. Y'know, just to see how it really feels.
 
2013-06-23 05:08:35 AM
I predict after he hands over US intel sources to Russia, Pootie Poot offers him up to the US in exchange for something like staying out of Syria or the re-hiring of Paula Deen on the Food Network.
 
2013-06-23 05:09:07 AM
Dude!  You're undermining your entire stance!  If you go to North Korea I'm going to have to side with the government.  I don't want to side with the farking government!  So don't do that!
 
2013-06-23 05:09:26 AM

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


Both sides are bad
 
2013-06-23 05:09:37 AM
whether or not you consider him a true patriot or not, he'd better leave his rings at home
 
2013-06-23 05:13:08 AM
Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?
 
2013-06-23 05:14:17 AM
In other words. Snowden continues to "Na na na boo-boo"  BLFFFTTT
 
2013-06-23 05:14:36 AM
"Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...
 
2013-06-23 05:15:10 AM

digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?


Benedict Arnold?

/he was a better general than Washington
 
2013-06-23 05:15:28 AM
Better than getting whacked by the FBI here.
 
2013-06-23 05:15:59 AM
He embarrassed the NSA.. not too many safe places for him left.
 
2013-06-23 05:16:31 AM

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


Lets not forget that police officers can kill you without cause or consequence, every aspect of a majority of the populous is controlled by a small oligarchy and the political life is largely a theocracy and any reason for the US to to fly the flags of freedom and democracy is looking like a joke.
 
2013-06-23 05:18:14 AM

digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?


Anyone that ever tried to make a difference.
 
2013-06-23 05:18:51 AM
I knew it! He was a goldurned pinko all along!
 
2013-06-23 05:25:45 AM
Mr. Icehouse, I presume.  Welcome.  Come this way, we have a car waiting.
 
2013-06-23 05:25:50 AM

quatchi: "Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...


Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with?  If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.
 
2013-06-23 05:26:39 AM

digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?


I'd go with whistle-blower to possible magnate to guy who doesn't want to spend his life in a small cell run by the NSA for the rest of his natural life but...

This whole subject needed to be brought up. The US has a lot of things it needs to reexamine with the Patriot Act front and center. This shouldn't be like the old days when we just setup a dictator like we were hiring a manager for a store. We're still paying for that stuff...
 
2013-06-23 05:28:55 AM
Sorry Mr. Snowden.  I tried caring about this stuff.  You seem like a nice guy, but I got burned pretty bad supporting that Stark guy on Game of Thrones so I'm gonna stay out of politics for a while.  My heart can't take it.
 
2013-06-23 05:31:10 AM

MurphyMurphy: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Anyone that ever tried to make a difference.


I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.
 
2013-06-23 05:31:13 AM
You just know there has to be people sitting around him on the plane giving him dirty looks and devious smiles.  I bet he is sweating paranoid balls right about now.
 
Juc
2013-06-23 05:32:00 AM

digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.


what was the lie about prism?
 
2013-06-23 05:32:10 AM
At this point he doesn't have many options when it comes to finding asylum. I imagine he plans on revealing how much of Russia's military and diplomatic traffic is being listened to, and possibly what encryptions are vulnerable. This will probably put a huge dent into our abilities to spy on Russia, much like it has probably affected it with China. I imagine he's telling everything that he knows as well as everything that he thinks he knows.

/I know I'm imagining a lot, based on lack of actual knowledge.
 
2013-06-23 05:34:35 AM

Andromeda: Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with? If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.


Outside of there being no non-stop flights from Hong Kong to Iceland (and probably not to Ecuador)

I think he was still in the process of getting Iceland to ok it? Something like that.

As for Ecuador, was that even discussed as a possibility for him?
And remember, Assange didn't go TO Ecuador, he just walked into the embassy in London and requested political asylum. And he's currently stuck there.

As we can see from Assange's position, as hard as it might be to get a nation to agree to harbor you, it's harder yet to actually get inside their borders.

Wherever he goes, Snowden's going to have to be very careful where he picks up his connecting flights.
 
2013-06-23 05:35:08 AM

Juc: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

what was the lie about prism?


That the US govt has direct access to corp. servers like Google and Facebook, and that a warrant isn't needed to request private information on a person.
 
2013-06-23 05:35:39 AM

Juc: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

what was the lie about prism?


Whatever Fox News said.
 
2013-06-23 05:36:57 AM

staplermofo: Sorry Mr. Snowden.  I tried caring about this stuff.  You seem like a nice guy, but I got burned pretty bad supporting that Stark guy on Game of Thrones so I'm gonna stay out of politics for a while.  My heart can't take it.


When you play the game of leaks, you win or you die; there is no middle ground.
 
2013-06-23 05:38:05 AM

austin_millbarge: Juc: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

what was the lie about prism?

Whatever Fox News said.


Faux News didn't say he lied, he said he lied.
 
2013-06-23 05:39:36 AM

Juc: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

what was the lie about prism?


He said that it was un-American.  That is impossible on its face, since by definition anything that the American government does is American, backed by the consent of the governed.

Anything that calls the legitimacy of the government into question, however, IS un-America.  Like him.
 
2013-06-23 05:39:54 AM
Anyone who kicks the US Gov in the balls is a hero. Hopefully he can settle in Iceland, banging weird Icelandic girls.
 
2013-06-23 05:43:31 AM
Oh, it's good to be right!

/referencing last thread.
 
2013-06-23 05:44:26 AM
Andromeda: quatchi: "Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...


Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with?  If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.

I'm thinking that he's thinking that the more publicity he attracts not just in the US but globally the larger his chances of survival increase and also that by doing it this way at the very least it keeps the story in heavy rotation in the notoriously fickle corporate media with it's "Squirrel? Where?!" cycles.

It's a story that he's basically given up all hope of a normal life for and it seems to be working so far

I could be wrong, obviously, this is all pure speculation and I'm half asleep and at cruising altitude.
 
2013-06-23 05:44:32 AM

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


The government may not be able to but the people have every right to call him a traitor is they see fit.

/and if the traitorous shoe fits...
 
2013-06-23 05:44:56 AM

digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference.


heeeeeeeere we go
 
2013-06-23 05:46:51 AM

digistil: austin_millbarge: Juc: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

what was the lie about prism?

Whatever Fox News said.

Faux News didn't say he lied, he said he lied.


Question:1) Define in as much detail as you can what "direct access" means.
2) Can analysts listen to content of domestic calls without a warrant?

Answer: 1) More detail on how direct NSA's accesses are is coming, but in general, the reality is this: if an NSA, FBI, CIA, DIA, etc analyst has access to query raw SIGINT databases, they can enter and get results for anything they want. Phone number, email, user id, cell phone handset id (IMEI), and so on - it's all the same. The restrictions against this are policy based, not technically based, and can change at any time. Additionally, audits are cursory, incomplete, and easily fooled by fake justifications. For at least GCHQ, the number of audited queries is only 5% of those performed.
2) NSA likes to use "domestic" as a weasel word here for a number of reasons. The reality is that due to the FISA Amendments Act and its section 702 authorities, Americans' communications are collected and viewed on a daily basis on the certification of an analyst rather than a warrant. They excuse this as "incidental" collection, but at the end of the day, someone at NSA still has the content of your communications. Even in the event of "warranted" intercept, it's important to understand the intelligence community doesn't always deal with what you would consider a "real" warrant like a Police department would have to, the "warrant" is more of a templated form they fill out and send to a reliable judge with a rubber stamp.



This was the last I heard on it.  Is there an update?
 
2013-06-23 05:47:47 AM

log_jammin: When you play the game of leaks, you win or you die; there is no middle ground.


Genius!  Let's trademark it and license it dog pounds.
 
2013-06-23 05:48:21 AM

MurphyMurphy: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference.

heeeeeeeere we go


I'm just wondering the acronym that this guy works for.
 
2013-06-23 05:54:01 AM

quatchi: I'm thinking that he's thinking that the more publicity he attracts not just in the US but globally the larger his chances of survival increase and also that by doing it this way at the very least it keeps the story in heavy rotation in the notoriously fickle corporate media with it's "Squirrel? Where?!" cycles.


40 years ago this would have been THE story.

Now?

"Meh, I always figured they could do this, what with modern technology being what it is.  Also, with modern technology being what it is, I don't really care about any outrage for more than a couple days, if at all."
 
2013-06-23 05:54:31 AM
So I guess we can safely say that Mr. Snowden has unlocked the Leroy Jenkins achievement?
 
2013-06-23 05:57:23 AM
I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people."


"He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."
 
2013-06-23 06:00:47 AM

log_jammin: I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people."


"He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."


From your linked article:

"As you heard the president say on Friday, he believes that we must strike a balance between our security interests and our desire for privacy. He made clear that you cannot have 100 percent security and 100 percent privacy. And, thus, we need to find that balance," White House press secretary Jay Carney said Tuesday.

So, Farkers, what's your balance? What are you willing to give up? How far are you willing to bend over in the name of 'security'?
 
2013-06-23 06:02:44 AM

robohobo: So, Farkers, what's your balance? What are you willing to give up? How far are you willing to bend over in the name of 'security'?


huh. I took that as a reasonable statement. guess you didn't.
 
2013-06-23 06:02:54 AM
There are a lot of places I'd go if I was fleeing American persecution and possible incarceration.

Into the loving arms of former KGB agent Vladimir Putin would not be one of them
 
2013-06-23 06:04:02 AM

log_jammin: I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people.


"I hope we follow Mr. Snowden to the ends of the earth to bring him to justice." -- Senator Lindsey Graham, member of House Committee on the Judiciary (97-02), current member on Senate Committee on Homeland Security.
"I think he's a traitor," "I think he has committed crimes," "I think it's one of the worst occasions in my memory of somebody with access to classified information doing enormous damage to the national security interests of the United States." -- Dick Cheney, former Vice President of the United States.
"What he did was an act of treason." -- Senator Dianne Feinstein, Chairwoman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, member of Committee on the Judiciary, Subcommittee on Terrorist and Homeland Security.
"He's a traitor." -- John Boehner, Speaker of the House.
"I hope that he will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law." -- Mitch McConnell, Senate Minority Leader
"I think that he should be prosecuted." -- Nancy Pelosi, House Minority Leader.
"I think he's a traitor. He has leaked classified information about intelligence gathering techniques that the United States government has been involved in which have been authorized and overseen by the US government. I don't know any other word to describe Mr. Snowden." -- John Cornyn, Senate Minority Whip.
"We're a nation of laws", so prosecute Edward Snowden for revealing possibly unconstitutional and illegal spying programs. -- John Thune, Senate Republican Conference Chair


I don't trust any of these people not to lie or act out of self interest.  But Al Franken? He's one of teh good guys!

/there are no good guys
 
2013-06-23 06:08:42 AM

robohobo: log_jammin: I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people."


"He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."

From your linked article:

"As you heard the president say on Friday, he believes that we must strike a balance between our security interests and our desire for privacy. He made clear that you cannot have 100 percent security and 100 percent privacy. And, thus, we need to find that balance," White House press secretary Jay Carney said Tuesday.

So, Farkers, what's your balance? What are you willing to give up? How far are you willing to bend over in the name of 'security'?


I don't want to sound apologist, but what evidence is there that these programs have been used for anything approaching the level of what Hoover's FBI was doing? Weren't those overtly political abuses what led to the FISA system now employed? I am uncomfortable with the potential for abuse in these programs but what people voluntarily give up to Facebook or mylife or ancestry.com is probably more than you could find on any NSA database.
 
2013-06-23 06:09:15 AM

MurphyMurphy: As for Ecuador, was that even discussed as a possibility for him?
And remember, Assange didn't go TO Ecuador, he just walked into the embassy in London and requested political asylum. And he's currently stuck there.

As we can see from Assange's position, as hard as it might be to get a nation to agree to harbor you, it's harder yet to actually get inside their borders.

Wherever he goes, Snowden's going to have to be very careful where he picks up his connecting flights.


Well, Assange's only problem is that the British will arrest him the moment he steps outside the embassy's turf to try to get to the airport. Moscow certainly isn't going to detain him. His complication might be that at least a quick search of flights from Moscow to points in unfriendly Latin American countries does not turn up any direct flights from Moscow, but I just quickly searched Moscow to Quito, Havana, and Caracas. He might have to do some complicated flying to make it.
 
2013-06-23 06:09:23 AM

sendtodave: I don't trust any of these people not to lie or act out of self interest.


That's a very easy and safe opinion to have. doesn't require much thinking or intellectually honesty on your part.
 
2013-06-23 06:10:27 AM

robohobo: How far are you willing to bend over in the name of 'security'?


I had a camera literally shoved up my ass.  People are suggesting this be done to everyone on a 50-year not-dying streak.  The government has gone too far for too long!
 
2013-06-23 06:12:53 AM
Good job US Government. You've gone so hard after him that the only logical place for him to go is a place we're most at odds with. And I'm sure they'll want to know everything he knows, and since the US government has been so hostile to him, he likely has lost any hesitation he might have had about giving up secret information to them.
 
2013-06-23 06:15:50 AM

justoneznot: a place we're most at odds with


PROTIP: The cold war ended a few years ago. Americans are only scared of commies at home. abroad, it's the scary brown men in turbans that are the new threat.
 
2013-06-23 06:16:26 AM

robohobo: So, Farkers, what's your balance? What are you willing to give up? How far are you willing to bend over in the name of 'security'?


0% security, 100% privacy.

Close all foreign bases and execute (after fair trials, of course) anybody who, while in the employ of the government or a contractor, violated any person's human rights in another country*, and the terrorism threat vanishes.

* - This would include a lot of the coverts ops guys from the CIA and almost all of the covert ops guys from the DoD.
 
2013-06-23 06:18:12 AM

justoneznot: Good job US Government. You've gone so hard after him that the only logical place for him to go is a place we're most at odds with. And I'm sure they'll want to know everything he knows, and since the US government has been so hostile to him, he likely has lost any hesitation he might have had about giving up secret information to them.


And the one place, that, if they really want the information, they still have the means handy to get it, if he DOES have any hesitation about giving it up.

I hear they've kept the Lubyanka oiled up and ready to go every day.
 
2013-06-23 06:18:28 AM

digistil: MurphyMurphy: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Anyone that ever tried to make a difference.

I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.


I sorta stopped following it, so I missed that, and I can't google at the moment because I'm wearing a towel. What intel did he give to the Chinese military, and what sources of intel did he give up?
 
2013-06-23 06:19:39 AM
Even though Russia may not sound like the sort of place you want to cool your heels its actually probably the best place for Snowden to cool his heels.

Last I checked they dont have extradition treaty with US, also if the CIA was sent after him for embarassing the NSA he would have whatever the Ruskies call the post communism KGB to protect him, And the US isnt gonna invade Russia under some other pretense just to get him.

Learn to enjoy the Vodak and plenty of skinny women.
 
2013-06-23 06:23:16 AM

log_jammin: justoneznot: a place we're most at odds with

PROTIP: The cold war ended a few years ago. Americans are only scared of commies at home. abroad, it's the scary brown men in turbans that are the new threat.


Oh okay cool, I guess our Russian allies will just send him right back then.
 
2013-06-23 06:23:38 AM

log_jammin: justoneznot: a place we're most at odds with

PROTIP: The cold war ended a few years ago. Americans are only scared of commies at home. abroad, it's the scary brown men in turbans that are the new threat.


While the cold war is technically over, pootie-poot seems to be doing his best to get it started up again.
 
2013-06-23 06:25:01 AM
RT/ITASS has him going to Venezuela ultimately after stop in Cuba.
 
2013-06-23 06:27:09 AM
So how long before Maduro gives this guy's book to Obama?
 
2013-06-23 06:28:46 AM

justoneznot: Oh okay cool, I guess our Russian allies will just send him right back then.


that's it. double down.
 
2013-06-23 06:30:40 AM
The more I hear about this guy, the farther down my list he goes.
 
2013-06-23 06:31:20 AM

lokis_mentor: RT/ITASS has him going to Venezuela ultimately after stop in Cuba.


Ah, yes, Aeroflot does have direct flights from Moscow to Havana, and he's on an Aeroflot flight to Moscow. That would make very much sense.
 
2013-06-23 06:38:05 AM
http://www.flightradar24.com/AFL213

His flight in real time
 
2013-06-23 06:38:48 AM
http://www.flightradar24.com/AFL213
 
2013-06-23 06:43:06 AM
All this privacy fetish rubbish is certainly amusing.

If you leave your front door, walk down the street, get a taxi, so on and so forth, and this chain of events is recorded on CCTV tapes for playback-- it's simply not an invasion of your privacy.

If you communicate on an infrastructure that you neither built, own, nor maintain, then anything you transmit can likewise be stored -- and subject to the same analysis.

Expectations of privacy are very much in line with Rights.

You have the right to do whatever you can conceive and achieve solely through your own efforts. But, if someone is required or compelled or obligated to provide assistance, then that thing you wish to do is not a right. It is rather a *privilege*.

So you do have a right to privacy in a locked room that you actually own, with windows drawn and guests of your own choosing. But not on the telephone or interweb. For those sorts of communications, administrators and technicians and system owners must cooperate with you so that you can achieve what you wish to do. Again, it's a privilege that comes with paying a phone bill.
 
2013-06-23 06:45:18 AM
 This is the same as the youtube video incident with Benghazi, when El Presedene' took a 7 hour powder, and had to blame and have arrested the videographer.

 Snowden has not divulged anything that's not been known since before the 'patriot act' was commissioned.

B.O. just needs to make it look like he wasn't slacking off, still.
 
2013-06-23 06:47:52 AM

sendtodave: log_jammin: I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people.

"I hope we follow Mr. Snowden to the ends of the earth to bring him to justice." -- Senator Lindsey Graham, member of House Committee on the Judiciary (97-02), current member on Senate Committee on Homeland Security.
"I think he's a traitor," "I think he has committed crimes," "I think it's one of the worst occasions in my memory of somebody with access to classified information doing enormous damage to the national security interests of the United States." -- Dick Cheney, former Vice President of the United States.
"What he did was an act of treason." -- Senator Dianne Feinstein, Chairwoman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, member of Committee on the Judiciary, Subcommittee on Terrorist and Homeland Security.
"He's a traitor." -- John Boehner, Speaker of the House.
"I hope that he will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law." -- Mitch McConnell, Senate Minority Leader
"I think that he should be prosecuted." -- Nancy Pelosi, House Minority Leader.
"I think he's a traitor. He has leaked classified information about intelligence gathering techniques that the United States government has been involved in which have been authorized and overseen by the US government. I don't know any other word to describe Mr. Snowden." -- John Cornyn, Senate Minority Whip.
"We're a nation of laws", so prosecute Edward Snowden for revealing possibly unconstitutional and illegal spying programs. -- John Thune, Senate Republican Conference Chair

I don't trust any of these people not to lie or act out of self interest.  But Al Franken? He's one of teh good guys!

/there are no good guys


Anyone who can garner that much bipartisan agreement must be doing something right.
 
2013-06-23 06:47:59 AM

Ball Peen Hammer Laxative: whether or not you consider him a true patriot or not, he'd better leave his rings at home


What you did there, I see it.

/Poor, poor Kraft
 
2013-06-23 06:48:06 AM

quatchi: Andromeda: quatchi: "Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...

Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with?  If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.

I'm thinking that he's thinking that the more publicity he attracts not just in the US but globally the larger his chances of survival increase and also that by doing it this way at the very least it keeps the story in heavy rotation in the notoriously fickle corporate media with it's "Squirrel? Where?!" cycles.

It's a story that he's basically given up all hope of a normal life for and it seems to be working so far

I could be wrong, obviously, this is all pure speculation and I'm half asleep and at cruising altitude.


Get off your phone and fly the plane!
 
2013-06-23 06:50:10 AM

mutterfark: So I guess we can safely say that Mr. Snowden has unlocked the Leroy Jenkins achievement?


That whole video was staged and scripted, you know.
 
2013-06-23 06:50:40 AM

mutterfark: So I guess we can safely say that Mr. Snowden has unlocked the Leroy Jenkins achievement?


Presumably, then, he has at least gotten chicken.
 
2013-06-23 06:57:40 AM

sendtodave: log_jammin: I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

"We're a nation of laws", so prosecute Edward Snowden for revealing possibly unconstitutional and illegal spying programs. -- John Thune, Senate Republican Conference Chair


So Thune admits that the spying was both unconstitutional and illegal? Great!


At this point it appears as though (a) billions of dollars are being spent to (b) listen in to everybody in the US of A (c) without probable cause or warrant (d) in order to support efforts to (e) deter a threat that has (e.1.) lower probability of harming you or me than (e.2.) the probability of being hurt by a drunk driver.

Maybe I'm confused here, but it seems that if drunk drivers are a greater direct and immediate threat to us on a daily basis than terrorists, there should be a proportional amount of funding and intrusion in order to prevent death by drunk rednecks in pickups.

The whole *** thing is nothing more than smoke and mirrors to keep you and me from going all revolutionary against the corporate oligarchy. That's the only reason I can think of that makes any sense. The sad thing is that it is now institutionalized into a bureaucracy involving government, military, and corporate sectors, so it is not going to go away. If anything, it is going to get bigger and bigger and more and more intrusive and controlling. (see Max Weber).

Ladies and gentlemen, we are flucked.
 
2013-06-23 06:59:29 AM
Chelsea Clinton Is Carrot Tops Lost Twin:
redacted list of terms that mark the poster as a clueless loon

What are you bufoons trying to accomplish with this shiat? Are you going to crash the system? Tie up human resources with a decoy post that some analyst will evidently have to go read since it contains magic words? Prove the 31337 config of your seven proxies?
 
2013-06-23 07:00:01 AM
Two words, americans

Extraordinary Rendition

freedom loving? yeah, right
 
2013-06-23 07:02:08 AM

rabidarmadillo24: At this point he doesn't have many options when it comes to finding asylum. I imagine he plans on revealing how much of Russia's military and diplomatic traffic is being listened to, and possibly what encryptions are vulnerable. This will probably put a huge dent into our abilities to spy on Russia, much like it has probably affected it with China. I imagine he's telling everything that he knows as well as everything that he thinks he knows.

/I know I'm imagining a lot, based on lack of actual knowledge.



They gave out the flight number and destination.  I imagine they have more assets in Russian than in HK.  This guys days are numbered.
 
2013-06-23 07:11:02 AM

ZzeusS: They gave out the flight number and destination. I imagine they have more assets in Russian than in HK. This guys days are numbered.


I can't decide if I like America better as a free society with inescapable accountability or as a no-nonsense authoritarian anti-hero state.
 
2013-06-23 07:11:13 AM

tbhouston: Next stop Cuba


static.giantbomb.com
 
2013-06-23 07:13:01 AM

Slaxl: digistil: MurphyMurphy: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Anyone that ever tried to make a difference.

I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

I sorta stopped following it, so I missed that, and I can't google at the moment because I'm wearing a towel. What intel did he give to the Chinese military, and what sources of intel did he give up?


What, exactly, is stopping you from Googling in said towel?
 
2013-06-23 07:15:14 AM

Alphax: He embarrassed the NSA.. not too many safe places for him left.


The government's best move at this point is to let him go, and they know it. They don't get anything other than the visceral satisfaction of punishing him if they get him back here, and in return this stays in the news cycle, along with protests and maybe even rioting, indefinitely. If they just let him go to Iceland or wherever, they can wait a few weeks until the next major news maker and the American people will forget all about the NSA. It is conceivable that they overchaged him on purpose with espionage instead of just theft in order to provoke China into not extraditing him.
 
2013-06-23 07:19:29 AM
I hope they kill him.  He's not a hero, he's a narcissist with an overinflated sense of self-worth who has deluded himself into thinking he's done something good.  He hasn't.  He's just been giving away US intelligence secrets because he's too stupid to do anything else.

When he dies, and it will be soon, I hope it is painful.
 
2013-06-23 07:20:15 AM

Tommy Moo: The government's best move at this point is to let him go, and they know it.


not a chance. One way or another he ends up back in the states in front of a judge. I don't know when, but it will happen.
 
2013-06-23 07:21:43 AM
I bet Putin wants to personally shake his hand. And then torture him into giving away more secrets.
 
2013-06-23 07:26:34 AM
Here's the full plan if anyone wants it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CeiPJaHuoQ

It's the only place this hero will be safe.
 
2013-06-23 07:27:59 AM
The revelations about GCHQ and the Tempora Project yesterday radically outsize the revelations about Prism.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-mastering-the-internet
 
2013-06-23 07:30:06 AM

Lsherm: I hope they kill him.  He's not a hero, he's a narcissist with an overinflated sense of self-worth who has deluded himself into thinking he's done something good.  He hasn't.  He's just been giving away US intelligence secrets because he's too stupid to do anything else.

When he dies, and it will be soon, I hope it is painful.


/eyeroll
 
2013-06-23 07:31:31 AM
In other news, turns out our treaties with the Chinese are worthless.
 
2013-06-23 07:34:30 AM

xkillyourfacex: In other news, turns out our treaties with the Chinese are worthless.



The US didn't actually file the paperwork.... Hong Kong did nothing wrong.
 
2013-06-23 07:34:41 AM

Lsherm: I hope they kill him.  He's not a hero, he's a narcissist with an overinflated sense of self-worth who has deluded himself into thinking he's done something good.  He hasn't.  He's just been giving away US intelligence secrets because he's too stupid to do anything else.

When he dies, and it will be soon, I hope it is painful.


I'm guessing you're a Republican and hate the government but waste no time in defending it when it violates the Constitution.

Looks at profile. Yup.
 
2013-06-23 07:34:55 AM
Now it's obvious that he's trying to get the Super Bowl ring back from Putin.

He's a brave soul.
 
2013-06-23 07:41:24 AM

maram500: Slaxl: digistil: MurphyMurphy: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Anyone that ever tried to make a difference.

I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

I sorta stopped following it, so I missed that, and I can't google at the moment because I'm wearing a towel. What intel did he give to the Chinese military, and what sources of intel did he give up?

What, exactly, is stopping you from Googling in said towel?


img.fark.net
 
2013-06-23 07:42:49 AM
Now what if...

*grabs tinfoil hat*

Snowden is actually a covert spy for the US Government, faked the whole NSA thing just to lull Russia into a false sense of security into trusting him, just so that he can infiltrate the Kremlin and steal back the Super Bowl rings that Putin stole a few years back?

Open your eyes sheeple!
 
2013-06-23 07:43:31 AM

maram500: Slaxl: digistil: MurphyMurphy: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Anyone that ever tried to make a difference.

I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

I sorta stopped following it, so I missed that, and I can't google at the moment because I'm wearing a towel. What intel did he give to the Chinese military, and what sources of intel did he give up?

What, exactly, is stopping you from Googling in said towel?


Laziness, and for some reason this came to mind.
 
2013-06-23 07:44:01 AM

denni04011: This is the same as the youtube video incident with Benghazi, when El Presedene' took a 7 hour powder, and had to blame and have arrested the videographer.


It's hard to take you seriously when you have to lie like that.
 
2013-06-23 07:45:25 AM

Mrtraveler01: Now what if...

*grabs tinfoil hat*

Snowden is actually a covert spy for the US Government, faked the whole NSA thing just to lull Russia into a false sense of security into trusting him, just so that he can infiltrate the Kremlin and steal back the Super Bowl rings that Putin stole a few years back?

Open your eyes sheeple!


The only way you would know that is...if you were in on the whole thing!
 
2013-06-23 07:46:20 AM

MurphyMurphy: Wherever he goes, Snowden's going to have to be very careful where he picks up his connecting flights.


He's stopping in Venezuela next so it looks like he's actually applying some logic to his travel plans.
 
2013-06-23 07:46:59 AM

log_jammin: Mrtraveler01: Now what if...

*grabs tinfoil hat*

Snowden is actually a covert spy for the US Government, faked the whole NSA thing just to lull Russia into a false sense of security into trusting him, just so that he can infiltrate the Kremlin and steal back the Super Bowl rings that Putin stole a few years back?

Open your eyes sheeple!

The only way you would know that is...if you were in on the whole thing!


Oops...I've said too much...
 
2013-06-23 07:47:00 AM

staplermofo: ZzeusS: They gave out the flight number and destination. I imagine they have more assets in Russian than in HK. This guys days are numbered.

I can't decide if I like America better as a free society with inescapable accountability or as a no-nonsense authoritarian anti-hero state.



Accountability via media spotlight.  Which is why we need this stuff occasionally.  Snowden could have planned his moves better, but I suppose he wanted to go out in a blaze of glory.
 
2013-06-23 07:49:38 AM

WorldCitizen: Ah, yes, Aeroflot does have direct flights from Moscow to Havana,


And yet the only way to get to Havana from Miami or Key West is by charter plane.

Got to love our Cold War-era foreign policy!
 
2013-06-23 07:50:11 AM

Mrtraveler01: Now what if...

*grabs tinfoil hat*

Snowden is actually a covert spy for the US Government, faked the whole NSA thing just to lull Russia into a false sense of security into trusting him, just so that he can infiltrate the Kremlin and steal back the Super Bowl rings that Putin stole a few years back?

Open your eyes sheeple!


The only thing this is missing here is the one-armed man from arrested development pointing to the ring on his detached fake hand, looking Putin dead in the eye and saying, "and THAT'S why you don't steal a Super Bowl ring."

/end scene
 
2013-06-23 07:52:34 AM
 
2013-06-23 07:53:35 AM

tirob: I suspect that Snowden hopes eventually to get to Ecuador.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/report-ecuador-might-offer-asylu m- edward-snowden_736740.html


He's slowly heading in that direction it seems. It would make sense to me.
 
2013-06-23 07:54:12 AM

letrole: All this privacy fetish rubbish is certainly amusing.

If you leave your front door, walk down the street, get a taxi, so on and so forth, and this chain of events is recorded on CCTV tapes for playback-- it's simply not an invasion of your privacy.

If you communicate on an infrastructure that you neither built, own, nor maintain, then anything you transmit can likewise be stored -- and subject to the same analysis.

Expectations of privacy are very much in line with Rights.

You have the right to do whatever you can conceive and achieve solely through your own efforts. But, if someone is required or compelled or obligated to provide assistance, then that thing you wish to do is not a right. It is rather a *privilege*.

So you do have a right to privacy in a locked room that you actually own, with windows drawn and guests of your own choosing. But not on the telephone or interweb. For those sorts of communications, administrators and technicians and system owners must cooperate with you so that you can achieve what you wish to do. Again, it's a privilege that comes with paying a phone bill.


The constitution and the supreme court disagree with you.  Next time it might be better if you do a little research before spouting off on a topic you clearly haven't thought about all that deeply.
 
2013-06-23 07:54:18 AM

letrole: So you do have a right to privacy in a locked room that you actually own, with windows drawn and guests of your own choosing. But not on the telephone or interweb. For those sorts of communications, administrators and technicians and system owners must cooperate with you so that you can achieve what you wish to do. Again, it's a privilege that comes with paying a phone bill.


I know Trole is your surname, so this isn't directed at you, but whomever might have read your comment and agreed with this.

You are incorrect about the expectation of privacy on a telephone. That's why wiretapping laws exist.  You cannot listen in on or record somebody else's phone conversations. This extends to the government, who cannot do so without a warrant (supposedly). Since internet communications work on a very similar infrastructure to telephone communications (and various laws that originally applied to telephones were ham-handedly applied to the internet early on), it is easy to assume that the internet has the same expectation of privacy as the telephone.

It's actually a big reversal to say that there is no expectation of privacy on these media. This is the argument that many non-Troles are actually making, and it's pretty scary.

I still maintain that Snowden is a hero. He brought an important issue to light (we know it's important because it's the biggest topic in national debate right now) that the government was concealing from us. Obama said that this would be a transparent administration. Meanwhile, he's overseeing a really invasive secretsurveillance system.  The American people had a right to know such a thing exists, even if we didn't get all the details.

Snowden corrected a wrong done by the government at great personal expense. He will never see his home again. His old life is gone. That's a huge sacrifice to give the American people the ability to debate and decide how much privacy we're willing to give up, rather than having the government decide for us.
 
2013-06-23 07:55:20 AM

OgreMagi: Dude!  You're undermining your entire stance!  If you go to North Korea I'm going to have to side with the government.  I don't want to side with the farking government!  So don't do that!


Why? He's acting out of necessity. The countries that have the shakiest diplomatic relationships with the United States are the least likely to extradite him. He would be stupid if he just flew into the UK and tried to seek asylum. In know way is he suggesting that he supports their policies or methods of governing their people.
 
2013-06-23 07:57:23 AM

lokis_mentor: RT/ITASS has him going to Venezuela ultimately after stop in Cuba.


Because Venezuela has no extradition with the United States.

Take your pick:

img.fark.net

or

img.fark.net
 
2013-06-23 07:59:48 AM

numbquil: Why? He's acting out of necessity.


Nothing he has done has been out of necessity.
 
2013-06-23 08:04:46 AM

digistil: I predict after he hands over US intel sources to Russia, Pootie Poot offers him up to the US in exchange for something like staying out of Syria or the re-hiring of Paula Deen on the Food Network.


Putin is a shrewd diplomat.  What he really wants is another mini giraffe.
 
2013-06-23 08:04:51 AM
Americans have the unquestioned right to travel anywhere because America is the freest, best nation ever!!!

Except for anyone we call a traitor. Also Cuba is strictly off-limits. Only traitors go there.

Our freedom is what makes us free not to go to traitor countries.
 
2013-06-23 08:05:47 AM
thamike:
Nothing he has done has been out of necessity.

Necessity for his own safety and freedom. Sure, he COULD have just stayed in the US and been tortured like Manning was... but if I were in that position, I'd feel it was a necessity to flee.
 
2013-06-23 08:05:53 AM
flamingboard:
It's the only place this hero will be safe.

But what about Snowden?
 
2013-06-23 08:08:42 AM

digistil: Juc: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

what was the lie about prism?

That the US govt has direct access to corp. servers like Google and Facebook, and that a warrant isn't needed to request private information on a person.


How do you know the government doesn't have direct access to those servers. Because Mark Zuckerberg says so? Facebook has gone public now. It would be a disaster for them if Facebook users believed the government had direct access to their data. Of course Facebook and Google would have to lie about it. A warrant isn't required either. All they need is something called a National Security Letter. It used to be that it could only be used to collect information on someone who was suspected of being a foreign spy. The USA PATRIOT Act changed that. Now they can get anyone's data as long as they can show that it is needed in a terrorism investigation and it seems that they interpret it as loosely as possible. Imagine that the NSA has a created a computer algorithm that can scan thousands of documents automatically and look for language that may lead them to believe one is involved in terrorism. In order to use such a system they would need a lot of data. It wouldn't work if they only had the data of those who were already suspected of terrorism. Does it sound like possible the data of every single American might be "needed in a terrorism investigation".

Unfortunately, I don't know if that is reality because the court that approves these documents is secret and the rulings are secret. We know what is required for a warrant. You need probable cause. There have been years of case law examples we can reference to identify what is or isn't probable cause. This allows we the people to protect ourselves against unreasonable searches. We don't know what the exact criteria for these NSLs or other secret court orders. We don't know what it means that information can be obtained when it is needed in a terrorist investigation. To the NSA an investigation may be something very different from what we see on Law and Order. Investigating could mean running everyone's data through a computer to look for connections to terrorists.

You don't know that he is lying. I don't know that he is not lying. Either way the government is up to something that I don't like. How about we let this whole thing play out before anyone judges this man as a patriot or as a criminal.
 
2013-06-23 08:08:55 AM

jack21221: tortured like Manning was.


uh huh
 
2013-06-23 08:11:19 AM
All he did was tell the public what its own government was doing.

Anyone who thinks this is "treason" is kind of a dumbass.
 
2013-06-23 08:11:49 AM

digistil: austin_millbarge: Juc: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

what was the lie about prism?

Whatever Fox News said.

Faux News didn't say he lied, he said he lied.


Citation needed. I have been following this story very closely and I have not seen one instance where Snowden claimed that he lied about any of this. The only lie he supposedly told was about his salary. He later said he was talking about his career high salary.
 
2013-06-23 08:15:39 AM

jack21221: thamike:
Nothing he has done has been out of necessity.

Necessity for his own safety and freedom. Sure, he COULD have just stayed in the US and been tortured like Manning was... but if I were in that position, I'd feel it was a necessity to flee.


Nothing he has done has been out of necessity, including the stuff he thinks is necessary now.  He committed a crime he thought would make him mini-Julian Assange, and it did.  We won't remember this f*cker's name in six months.  There is no book deal at the end of this, not because of the crime, but because his life story will bore you to tears. Some people have their own lucrative reality shows telling the world how moronic they are, and then there's this bozo.
 
2013-06-23 08:15:51 AM
Snowden has far more to fear from the global intel community then he does from the US government. He isnt safe anywhere. You do not fark people like that over.
 
2013-06-23 08:17:26 AM
he might lose his health care.
 
2013-06-23 08:18:09 AM

positronica: The constitution and the supreme court disagree with you. Next time it might be better if you do a little research before spouting off on a topic you clearly haven't thought about all that deeply.


Just because the government violates a right doesn't mean you don't or should not have those rights. You will find most people disagree with defining rights as simply what freedoms the government determines to afford you. For example, blacks always had the right to sit on a bus where they wanted, even though once the government denied them the right. They didn't obtain the right by changing the law; no reasonable person would say they did not have the right beforehand; they asserted their right and the law was found in error, which means they always had it and that law was always wrong.

And, no, sitting on a bus where you want isn't a liberty. The government still has the power to order bus seating, just not based on race.
 
2013-06-23 08:20:04 AM

doczoidberg: All he did was tell the public what its own government was doing.

Anyone who thinks this is "treason" is kind of a dumbass.


Leaking secrets is technically treason.  Anyone who thinks about this emotionally is kind of a dumbass.  Anyone who wasn't aware that the NSA can look at his phone records is a particularly lost dumbass.
 
2013-06-23 08:20:54 AM

thamike: including the stuff he thinks is necessary now.


So, what are his other options? You seem to have it all figured out. If fleeing to another country seeking political asylum is not a necessity, what else would possibly give him a good outcome?
 
2013-06-23 08:21:45 AM

xkillyourfacex: Just because the government violates a right doesn't mean you don't or should not have those rights.


It does when the SCOTUS says it does.
 
2013-06-23 08:23:16 AM

jack21221: thamike: including the stuff he thinks is necessary now.

So, what are his other options? You seem to have it all figured out. If fleeing to another country seeking political asylum is not a necessity, what else would possibly give him a good outcome?


Nothing.  He's done far too many unnecessarily halfwitted things from the very beginning.  At this point, it's about cutting losses.
 
2013-06-23 08:24:18 AM

thamike: doczoidberg: All he did was tell the public what its own government was doing.

Anyone who thinks this is "treason" is kind of a dumbass.

Leaking secrets is technically treason.  Anyone who thinks about this emotionally is kind of a dumbass.  Anyone who wasn't aware that the NSA can look at his phone records is a particularly lost dumbass.


Were people actually shocked when this news came out?

But he's right. Leaving emotion out of this, technically he's committing treason (the best kind of treason). How can you leak government secrets and not be accused of treason is beyond me.
 
2013-06-23 08:25:00 AM

thamike: Anyone who wasn't aware that the NSA can look at his phone records is a particularly lost dumbass.


This was not public knowledge, which is why it's a big deal that he leaked it in the first place. Additionally, it was a surprise to many that there was a rubber-stamp court (99.96% granted) which would allow anybody's phone and email CONTENT to be collected (not just metadata) on the flimsiest of evidence. Or, that such decisions could be made simply on the whim of an analyst, even without the court (which would have approved it anyway).

If everybody knew that the NSA was collecting everybody's phone records in addition to all of this other stuff, then he didn't leak anything, now did he? And if people didn't know this stuff, how are they "lost dumbasses?"

Either he didn't leak anything important, or people are not dumbasses. You can't have both.
 
2013-06-23 08:26:25 AM

justoneznot: Good job US Government. You've gone so hard after him that the only logical place for him to go is a place we're most at odds with. And I'm sure they'll want to know everything he knows, and since the US government has been so hostile to him, he likely has lost any hesitation he might have had about giving up secret information to them.


Just how hard has the US been going after him?

Whether or not you think he's a hero, he's clearly broken the law.  Do you really think the US is not going to at least make an attempt to arrest him?

It sounds like the US has gone to such great lengths as to issue an arrest warrant and request extradition.  Yeah, that's really going "so hard after him", isn't it?

The only way the US could go less hard after him is to ignore him completely.  Let us know when they send Seal Team 6 to wherever his final country of refuge is.
 
2013-06-23 08:26:25 AM

thamike: Nothing.  He's done far too many unnecessarily halfwitted things from the very beginning.  At this point, it's about cutting losses.


So, he has no other options, so you're agreeing that what he's doing is out of necessity? You must be trolling. I'm done responding to you since it's clear you don't genuinely hold these positions.
 
2013-06-23 08:28:06 AM

jack21221: thamike: including the stuff he thinks is necessary now.

So, what are his other options? You seem to have it all figured out. If fleeing to another country seeking political asylum is not a necessity, what else would possibly give him a good outcome?


He should turn himself in, cooperate with the authorities and hope it mitigates his final sentence.
 
2013-06-23 08:29:56 AM

jack21221: thamike: Anyone who wasn't aware that the NSA can look at his phone records is a particularly lost dumbass.

This was not public knowledge, which is why it's a big deal that he leaked it in the first place. Additionally, it was a surprise to many that there was a rubber-stamp court (99.96% granted) which would allow anybody's phone and email CONTENT to be collected (not just metadata) on the flimsiest of evidence. Or, that such decisions could be made simply on the whim of an analyst, even without the court (which would have approved it anyway).

If everybody knew that the NSA was collecting everybody's phone records in addition to all of this other stuff, then he didn't leak anything, now did he? And if people didn't know this stuff, how are they "lost dumbasses?"

Either he didn't leak anything important, or people are not dumbasses. You can't have both.


You can have both.  He leaked specific procedure.  And people are dumbasses for being shocked an outraged about the dinnerbell media frenzy phone sh*t that I--not being privy to secrets nor particularly feverish in my interest of the topic--have known about for a decade.

You want to know what really scares me about the NSA?  That they give security clearance to high school dropouts who look, act, speak, and think like high school dropouts.
 
2013-06-23 08:31:15 AM

jack21221: thamike: Nothing.  He's done far too many unnecessarily halfwitted things from the very beginning.  At this point, it's about cutting losses.

So, he has no other options, so you're agreeing that what he's doing is out of necessity? You must be trolling. I'm done responding to you since it's clear you don't genuinely hold these positions.


I genuinely hold these positions.  He's doing a media tour before he turns himself in.  None of this was necessary.
 
2013-06-23 08:31:58 AM

thamike: I genuinely hold these positions. He's doing a media tour before he turns himself in or gets caught (worse idea). None of this was necessary.

 
2013-06-23 08:32:58 AM

jack21221: Either he didn't leak anything important, or people are not dumbasses. You can't have both.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_secret
 
2013-06-23 08:35:37 AM

jack21221: letrole: So you do have a right to privacy in a locked room that you actually own, with windows drawn and guests of your own choosing. But not on the telephone or interweb. For those sorts of communications, administrators and technicians and system owners must cooperate with you so that you can achieve what you wish to do. Again, it's a privilege that comes with paying a phone bill.

I know Trole is your surname, so this isn't directed at you, but whomever might have read your comment and agreed with this.

You are incorrect about the expectation of privacy on a telephone. That's why wiretapping laws exist.  You cannot listen in on or record somebody else's phone conversations. This extends to the government, who cannot do so without a warrant (supposedly). Since internet communications work on a very similar infrastructure to telephone communications (and various laws that originally applied to telephones were ham-handedly applied to the internet early on), it is easy to assume that the internet has the same expectation of privacy as the telephone.

It's actually a big reversal to say that there is no expectation of privacy on these media. This is the argument that many non-Troles are actually making, and it's pretty scary.

I still maintain that Snowden is a hero. He brought an important issue to light (we know it's important because it's the biggest topic in national debate right now) that the government was concealing from us. Obama said that this would be a transparent administration. Meanwhile, he's overseeing a really invasive secretsurveillance system.  The American people had a right to know such a thing exists, even if we didn't get all the details.

Snowden corrected a wrong done by the government at great personal expense. He will never see his home again. His old life is gone. That's a huge sacrifice to give the American people the ability to debate and decide how much privacy we're willing to give up, rather than having the government decide for us.


You should really read the USA PATRIOT act. The following summaries are directly from Ethics in Information Technology by George W. Reynolds:

Section 206 FISA roving wiretaps: "Expands FISA to permit "roving wiretap" authority, which allows the FBI to intercept any communications to or by an intelligence target without specifying the telephone line, computer, or other facility to be monitored."

Section 215 FISA access to tangible items: Permits the FBI to compel production of any record or item without showing probable cause; people served with a search warrant issued under FISA rules may not disclose, under penalty of law, the existence of the warrant or the fact that records were provided to the government.

Section 505 Authorizes use of National Security letters: Authorizes the attorney general or delegate to compel holders of your personal records to turn them over to the government simply by writing an NSL, which is not subject to judicial oversight or review. NSLs can be used against anyone, including U.S. citizens, even if they are not suspected of espionage or criminal activity.


Now keep in mind that before this patriotic act your privacy was protected by the 4th amendment, The Right to Financial Privacy Act of 1978, The Communications Act of 1934, The Wiretap Act, The Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986, and others. Almost a century of legislation passed to protect your civil liberties was undone by a single idea: terrorism. It seems as if all the government has to do to be able to justify violating your rights is to mention that word. Because terrorism is so evil, so deadly that we should all just lock ourselves in a prison to protect ourselves from it.
 
2013-06-23 08:36:54 AM

jack21221: thamike: Anyone who wasn't aware that the NSA can look at his phone records is a particularly lost dumbass.

This was not public knowledge, which is why it's a big deal that he leaked it in the first place. Additionally, it was a surprise to many that there was a rubber-stamp court (99.96% granted) which would allow anybody's phone and email CONTENT to be collected (not just metadata) on the flimsiest of evidence. Or, that such decisions could be made simply on the whim of an analyst, even without the court (which would have approved it anyway).

If everybody knew that the NSA was collecting everybody's phone records in addition to all of this other stuff, then he didn't leak anything, now did he? And if people didn't know this stuff, how are they "lost dumbasses?"

Either he didn't leak anything important, or people are not dumbasses. You can't have both.



I wonder how many NSA analysts have used their powers simply to snoop on ex-girlfriends.
 
2013-06-23 08:39:22 AM

digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?


Oliver North?

Or was it that he was all three at once, depending on who you asked?
 
2013-06-23 08:39:37 AM

doczoidberg: I wonder how many NSA analysts have used their powers simply to snoop on ex-girlfriends.


Funny, I used to be in a serious relationship with someone in a high level intelligence family.  Maybe that's why I'm so aloof about surveillance.  It's a foregone conclusion.
 
2013-06-23 08:40:58 AM
Deal with it.
 
2013-06-23 08:41:36 AM

SurfaceTension: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Oliver North?

Or was it that he was all three at once, depending on who you asked?


The fact he's a commentator on Fox News instead of rotting in a prison somewhere is one of the greatest injustices to befall our criminal system.
 
2013-06-23 08:41:42 AM

thamike: It does when the SCOTUS says it does.


Well then we'll just use a different word than "right" so you can cling to your shiatty definitions.
 
2013-06-23 08:44:48 AM
I'm more upset we give NSA several billion dollars a year and they let a high school drlop-out do this type of damage.  What I'm worried about are all the analysts working for foreign countries who keep their mouths shut about what they're up to.
 
2013-06-23 08:45:31 AM
img.fark.net
 
2013-06-23 08:46:16 AM

OgreMagi: Dude!  You're undermining your entire stance!  If you go to North Korea I'm going to have to side with the government.  I don't want to side with the farking government!  So don't do that!


If you read the article, you'll see that the only reason he's in Russia is to catch a connecting flight. The article says he'll be heading to Cuba, but the Wikileaks people interviewed for it also said they'd arranged for his transit to a democratic country, and Cuba isn't very democratic. Iceland and Venezuela are still options at this point.
 
2013-06-23 08:47:02 AM

xkillyourfacex: thamike: It does when the SCOTUS says it does.

Well then we'll just use a different word than "right" so you can cling to your shiatty definitions.


Ok.
 
2013-06-23 08:49:47 AM

OgreMagi: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Benedict Arnold?

/he was a better general than Washington


Great generals don't piss off their peers, and general staff.  They also don't turn traitor and plot to overthrow their command.

/or if you're a southern civil war apologist that likes to point out that Washington was a traitor, you could say Benedict Arnold stopped being a traitor and went back to being a loyal subject of the crown.
 
2013-06-23 08:54:08 AM

BalugaJoe: he might lose his health care.


He has little to loose. He can thank Illbama for that
 
2013-06-23 08:54:27 AM

digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?


Not to draw a comparison, but MLK Jr. got called a traitor and a liar all the damn time by people in authority. Pretty much anybody that takes a moral stand against what folks with power and money are doing gets labelled a liar and a traitor, usually not 5 minutes after calling them out. And besides, nothing he said was a lie. Regardless of what government officials -who want to keep what they're doing secret and criminalize revealing it- say, once they have the data covered by one of those court-orders, there isn't anything to stop them from looking at any of the data on it. As they say, possession is 9/10th of the law, and once someone has access to information it's foolish to believe they'll be hampered by rules no one is around to enforce.
 
2013-06-23 08:56:23 AM

Heron: Cuba isn't very democratic. Iceland and Venezuela are still options at this point.


Sounds facinating
 
2013-06-23 08:59:16 AM

Heron: Cuba isn't very democratic. Iceland and Venezuela are still options at this point.


If by that you mean Venezuela appears to be democratic.
 
2013-06-23 08:59:25 AM

Heron: nothing he said was a lie.


You say that with authority. How do you know that's true?
 
2013-06-23 09:00:40 AM

Heron: OgreMagi: Dude!  You're undermining your entire stance!  If you go to North Korea I'm going to have to side with the government.  I don't want to side with the farking government!  So don't do that!

If you read the article, you'll see that the only reason he's in Russia is to catch a connecting flight. The article says he'll be heading to Cuba, but the Wikileaks people interviewed for it also said they'd arranged for his transit to a democratic country, and Cuba isn't very democratic. Iceland and Venezuela are still options at this point.


I hope we don't lose to Venezuela. That would be embarrassing.
 
2013-06-23 09:01:32 AM

doczoidberg: All he did was tell the public what its own government was doing.

Anyone who thinks this is "treason" is kind of a dumbass.


Treason is a very specific charge in this country, defined in our constitution.

And this doesn't even come close. They're not even charging him with espionage.
 
2013-06-23 09:01:41 AM

SomeoneDumb: The more I hear about this guy, the farther down my list he goes.


Disagree. The Guardian here in the UK is still releasing information supplied by Snowdon about UK data mining of any international traffic that touches out shore. OK, we might need to do this, but the decision should be in the public domain not based on "reinterpreting" an old law.

It is also interesting that the NSA is off-shoring their data collection to the UK where is it not subject to US democratic control.
 
2013-06-23 09:02:07 AM

Andromeda: quatchi: "Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...

Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with?  If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.


It's pretty obvious. He wanted to be somewhere that had geo-political reasons to protect a person who'd pissed off US elites, and also had the umph to do so successfully. Ecuador and Iceland are sometimes willing to take a stand on these issues, but neither could really do anything to stop the US military if our gov decided to snatch somebody from them, and both are susceptible to US "soft-power" in various ways. Snatching a person under CCP protection out of Hong Kong, however, would be a major international incident.
 
2013-06-23 09:02:43 AM

Mrtraveler01: Heron: Cuba isn't very democratic. Iceland and Venezuela are still options at this point.

If by that you mean Venezuela appears to be democratic.


"..well, I was thinking Cuba"
"Sorry to disappoint you, Mr Snowden, But Cuba is not democratic. How about Iceland or Venezuela?"
"Iceland? brrrrr"
 
2013-06-23 09:03:42 AM

Dear Mr. Putin,


Please return this jackhole to us in a coffin, and you can keep the Super Bowl ring.

 
2013-06-23 09:06:01 AM

LewDux: "Iceland? brrrrr"


yeah but his ping rate while playing eve online will be awesome!
 
2013-06-23 09:07:52 AM
Go Snow Go
 
2013-06-23 09:08:08 AM

Dwight_Yeast: They're not even charging him with espionage.


They're going to give him a long, drawn out slap on the wrist and he will never get close to an intelligence agency ever again.  Right now, he's just trying to secure a reality show and a book deal. I think that was his intention from the beginning.
 
2013-06-23 09:08:36 AM
img.fark.net
 
2013-06-23 09:11:12 AM

digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?


Anyone who opposed the Iraq War in 2003, according to anyone on the right at the time.

/hey, you asked.
 
2013-06-23 09:13:14 AM

log_jammin: Heron: nothing he said was a lie.

You say that with authority. How do you know that's true?


Because I've seen the Verizon court order. If a telecom turns over all the data they have on a specific server to any other entity, whatever rules that entity says will govern how they look at that data is irrelevant due to the simple fact that they now have all of it. Possessing it, they can do whatever the hell they want with it, whenever they want, and if there isn't someone there looking over their shoulder to police their use, then whatever they tell you about safe-guards and regulations is nothing but hot-air and window-dressing.

This isn't hard people. If they weren't doing questionably legal things with your data that they knew would piss you off, then they wouldn't keep it secret in the first place, nor go to the lengths they do to punish people who reveal their actions. If the folks in the government and the spying bureaus genuinely thought they had the Constitutional authority to carry out these programs, they'd never have tried to hide them to begin with.
 
2013-06-23 09:14:04 AM

Mrtraveler01: thamike: doczoidberg: All he did was tell the public what its own government was doing.

Anyone who thinks this is "treason" is kind of a dumbass.

Leaking secrets is technically treason.  Anyone who thinks about this emotionally is kind of a dumbass.  Anyone who wasn't aware that the NSA can look at his phone records is a particularly lost dumbass.

Were people actually shocked when this news came out?

But he's right. Leaving emotion out of this, technically he's committing treason (the best kind of treason). How can you leak government secrets and not be accused of treason is beyond me.


Because treason is specifically defined in the U.S. Constitution as providing aid and comfort to America's enemies during wartime? Whatever young Snowden's done, he hasn't done that.
 
2013-06-23 09:14:38 AM

Mrtraveler01: SurfaceTension: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Oliver North?

Or was it that he was all three at once, depending on who you asked?

The fact he's a commentator on Fox News instead of rotting in a prison somewhere is one of the greatest injustices to befall our criminal system.


Agreed
 
2013-06-23 09:17:16 AM
quatchi:I'm thinking that he's thinking that the more publicity he attracts not just in the US but globally the larger his chances of survival increase and also that by doing it this way at the very least it keeps the story in heavy rotation in the notoriously fickle corporate media with it's "Squirrel? Where?!" cycles.

img.fark.net

Actually, that is a pretty good analogy for how corporate media behaves.
 
2013-06-23 09:19:53 AM

vinniethepoo: Because treason is specifically defined in the U.S. Constitution as providing aid and comfort to America's enemies during wartime? Whatever young Snowden's done, he hasn't done that.


It's a good thing he isn't charged with treason then.

Al-Awlaki?  That guy committed treason, and he was given the aforementioned punishment.  He's another darling of the Fark Freedom League.
 
2013-06-23 09:19:58 AM

tbhouston: Next stop Cuba


Google how that turned out for all those hijackers in the 60s and 70s.

He's going to have a real good time.
 
2013-06-23 09:23:42 AM
Why all the hate for Cuba suddenly? From all I've read here over the years I thought Cuba was a worker's paradise.
 
2013-06-23 09:23:44 AM

letrole: Chelsea Clinton Is Carrot Tops Lost Twin:
redacted list of terms that mark the poster as a clueless loon

What are you bufoons trying to accomplish with this shiat? Are you going to crash the system? Tie up human resources with a decoy post that some analyst will evidently have to go read since it contains magic words? Prove the 31337 config of your seven proxies?


Ride a bike to work wearing spandex stretch trousers?
 
2013-06-23 09:25:13 AM
To people who are saying he's guilty of treason, here is the definition of treason under US law:

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

He's not guilty of treason, and people who are saying he is are ignorant of the law. Espionage he may be guilty of, but not treason, not under US law.
 
2013-06-23 09:26:18 AM
Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it, "all men are created equal except negroes." When the Know-nothings get control, it will read, "all men are created equal except negroes and foreigners and Catholics." When it comes to this, I shall prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty--to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.

Abraham Lincoln
 
2013-06-23 09:27:35 AM

Heron: Because I've seen the Verizon court order.


you're a farking retard.
 
2013-06-23 09:28:58 AM

Heron: If the folks in the government and the spying bureaus genuinely thought they had the Constitutional authority to carry out these programs, they'd never have tried to hide them to begin with.


oh wait. you topped yourself.
 
2013-06-23 09:33:24 AM

wisher21: To people who are saying he's guilty of treason, here is the definition of treason under US law:

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

He's not guilty of treason, and people who are saying he is are ignorant of the law. Espionage he may be guilty of, but not treason, not under US law.


I don't even think he's guilty of espionage, not under U.S. law. This whole thing has been blown out of proportion in every direction by the media.  The guy is insignificant.  The info he leaked is moot, vis a vis enemies of the U.S.  Nothing about this is special.  Illegal, maybe, but hardly a bombshell.  Doesn't change the fact that he shouldn't be anywhere near classified information.
 
2013-06-23 09:37:33 AM

letrole: All this privacy fetish rubbish is certainly amusing.

If you leave your front door, walk down the street, get a taxi, so on and so forth, and this chain of events is recorded on CCTV tapes for playback-- it's simply not an invasion of your privacy.

If you communicate on an infrastructure that you neither built, own, nor maintain, then anything you transmit can likewise be stored -- and subject to the same analysis.

Expectations of privacy are very much in line with Rights.

You have the right to do whatever you can conceive and achieve solely through your own efforts. But, if someone is required or compelled or obligated to provide assistance, then that thing you wish to do is not a right. It is rather a *privilege*.

So you do have a right to privacy in a locked room that you actually own, with windows drawn and guests of your own choosing. But not on the telephone or interweb. For those sorts of communications, administrators and technicians and system owners must cooperate with you so that you can achieve what you wish to do. Again, it's a privilege that comes with paying a phone bill.


Agreed to a point. As an grizzled oldster, I see the facebook/twitter people to whom oversharing is a meaningless word worrying government warrantless wiretapping. Facebook is continually jumping through hoops to provide finer and finer granularity on what people can publish and exactly how much.

Try applying for a job related to DoD work nowadays, even if unclassified. Not everyone can work at Google or Apple.
 
2013-06-23 09:37:52 AM
thamike posted:

"I don't even think he's guilty of espionage, not under U.S. law. This whole thing has been blown out of proportion in every direction by the media. The guy is insignificant. The info he leaked is moot, vis a vis enemies of the U.S. Nothing about this is special. Illegal, maybe, but hardly a bombshell. Doesn't change the fact that he shouldn't be anywhere near classified information."


Ah yes, the "what's the big deal, I already knew about this" refrain. Thanks for the hard hitting, in-depth analysis thamike, it's fascinating.
 
2013-06-23 09:41:12 AM

IlGreven: Well, hey, when the U.S. is acting like a communist country on this issue, you might as well make your way to a couple of 'em. Y'know, just to see how it really feels.


Huh? There are no true Communist countries anymore... if ever.
 
2013-06-23 09:42:13 AM

wisher21: Ah yes, the "what's the big deal, I already knew about this" refrain. Thanks for the hard hitting, in-depth analysis thamike, it's fascinating.


It's not my fault you look to me for your news.  At least I know why I'm not spazzing out about this.
 
2013-06-23 09:42:44 AM
It's great how this whole scandal is focusing entirely on Snowden himself and the program when it's overlooking another big factor:

WE'RE farkING OUTSOURCING INTELLIGENCE.

PMCs are bad enough, but now we're not just outsourcing... basically every job the military does except getting shot. We're outsourcing handling the farking secrets that are supposed to keep this country safe. How is this acceptable? How far have we fallen and how much are we lurching towards a Blade Runner/Shadowrun future by basically turning corporations in the organizations that "protect" us in every way.
 
2013-06-23 09:43:12 AM

wisher21: thamike posted:

"I don't even think he's guilty of espionage, not under U.S. law. This whole thing has been blown out of proportion in every direction by the media. The guy is insignificant. The info he leaked is moot, vis a vis enemies of the U.S. Nothing about this is special. Illegal, maybe, but hardly a bombshell. Doesn't change the fact that he shouldn't be anywhere near classified information."


Ah yes, the "what's the big deal, I already knew about this" refrain. Thanks for the hard hitting, in-depth analysis thamike, it's fascinating.


Uh it has been common knowledge that the NSA was doing this for years even before the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act really just made certain questionable things they were already doing legal.

There have been numerous Frontline reports over the last decade on this very subject.
 
2013-06-23 09:47:56 AM
Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.
 
2013-06-23 09:50:31 AM

wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.


And what is going to be done to change this?
 
2013-06-23 09:50:56 AM

wisher21: No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were.


It certainly seems to be getting you all riled up.

Meanwhile, nobody blames phone companies for throwing around their personal info.  That would make them bad consumers.

Pardon me if double standards and cherry-picked outrage is not my idea of fun.
 
2013-06-23 09:51:48 AM

Mrtraveler01: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

And what is going to be done to change this?


PRISM will be shuttered.  In ten years, some flunkie will tell us all about SRIMP.
 
2013-06-23 09:52:14 AM
Traitor is a traitor, doesn't matter where he stops he's eating a bullet.
 
2013-06-23 09:53:00 AM

Misconduc: Traitor is a traitor, doesn't matter where he stops he's eating a bullet.


Blargh.
 
2013-06-23 09:54:14 AM

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


You do know that everyone does that, right?  It is big boy pants for countries.  We also let people marry cactii and collect unemployment for injured ankles.
/Can't wait to read this guy's obituary
//Planeload of wikileaks lawyers jokes after this....
 
2013-06-23 09:54:46 AM

wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.


The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.
 
2013-06-23 09:58:35 AM
Right, so I don't even post on fark anymore as it's way too much noise. Think what you'd like, it's nothing I care to discuss here, for the same reason I don't read youtube comments.

I'll leave you with this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNsePZj_Yks
 
2013-06-23 09:58:46 AM

Biological Ali: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.


It's happening with increasing regularity--the media outlets start barking out headlines, to which I react with "duh.  there has to be more to this" only to find out that there's even less to this.
 
2013-06-23 09:59:49 AM
When releasing US Government secrets for the "good of Americans", it's kinda hurts your creditability when you hide out in places like China and Russia, two countries with a long history of trying to obtain US Government secrets and have the deep pockets to pay off people in your position to get them.
 
2013-06-23 10:00:00 AM
He reminds me of a younger, nerdier Oliver North.

If only Reagan were here, he'd know what to do.
 
2013-06-23 10:00:00 AM

wisher21: Right, so I don't even post on fark anymore as it's way too much noise.


He says in a post on Fark--not even his last in this thread.
 
2013-06-23 10:00:01 AM

Biological Ali: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.


Basically this.

Neither side is talking about serious reforms and the only thing that's resulted from this is that people's hyperbole has been ratcheted up a notch.

What positive reforms are going to come out of this "national conversation"?
 
2013-06-23 10:01:11 AM

Andromeda: Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with? If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.


I suspect because he was a dumbass.
 
2013-06-23 10:05:07 AM

Biological Ali: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.


Yup. You've put your finger on why I'm apathetic about this: it's a classic "The dog barks but the caravan rolls on" situation, and as soon as something more flashy happens, the media will drop this and nothing will have changed.

The only thing to come out of it is the addmission by various high-ranking Congressional Republicans that they don't feel the law goes far enough and  they'd like to expand data-collection.
 
2013-06-23 10:05:30 AM

wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.


National conversation? You mean the media failing to do any kind of actual analysis and armchair political activists like the teenagers over on Reddit whining about privacy, but at the same time posting random pics of creepos and fat people they take in public? This is no more a public issue than Kanye naming his baby North West. It is not smug to be privy to the same information that's been happening in the country for decades, nor the reaction the country takes. I'm sure the ones who are actually not surprised about this situation are the ones  actually doing something about it.
 
2013-06-23 10:06:20 AM

Mrtraveler01: What positive reforms are going to come out of this "national conversation"?


I think a lot of these people were either in grade school or just not paying attention a decade ago, when this legislation was in its infancy and was basically a blank check to all the agencies, even ones that don't have any business having it.

It's sort of like people who think terrorism is the biggest existential threat America has ever faced, and they say that with a straight face to people who grew up during the days of Mutually Assured Destruction.
 
2013-06-23 10:08:07 AM

letrole: Chelsea Clinton Is Carrot Tops Lost Twin:
redacted list of terms that mark the poster as a clueless loon

What are you bufoons trying to accomplish with this shiat? Are you going to crash the system? Tie up human resources with a decoy post that some analyst will evidently have to go read since it contains magic words? Prove the 31337 config of your seven proxies?


1.  Assert my rights.

2.  Define "crash the system".  What system are you referring to?

3.  Abso-farking-lutely.

4.  No proxies here.  If Obama and the rest of the congress traitors want to come and get me; they can have at it.

www.punjabigraphics.com
 
2013-06-23 10:11:38 AM

OgreMagi: Dude!  You're undermining your entire stance!  If you go to North Korea I'm going to have to side with the government.  I don't want to side with the farking government!  So don't do that!


Where did you come up with that? TFA did not contain the string "Korea" -- either north or south -- in any context.
 
2013-06-23 10:15:00 AM

kimmygibblershomework: You do know that everyone does that, right? It is big boy pants for countries. We also let people marry cactii and collect unemployment for injured ankles.
/Can't wait to read this guy's obituary
//Planeload of wikileaks lawyers jokes after this....


Speaking of collecting unemployment...  That's another thing I've been wondering.  What the hell is this dumbass' plan?  Does he just plan on living on the charity of others the rest of his life?  Who the hell would hire this guy?
 
2013-06-23 10:16:58 AM

Satanic_Hamster: Who the hell would hire this guy?


img.fark.net
 
2013-06-23 10:21:14 AM

thamike: Satanic_Hamster: Who the hell would hire this guy?

[img.fark.net image 600x400]


See, that would be more effective if I knew who that was.
 
2013-06-23 10:25:17 AM

Satanic_Hamster: thamike: Satanic_Hamster: Who the hell would hire this guy?

[img.fark.net image 600x400]

See, that would be more effective if I knew who that was.


TMZ guy.

/he's a lawyer!
 
2013-06-23 10:26:47 AM

Satanic_Hamster: Speaking of collecting unemployment... That's another thing I've been wondering. What the hell is this dumbass' plan? Does he just plan on living on the charity of others the rest of his life? Who the hell would hire this guy?


I don't think he was thinking long-term at the time.  But Daniel Ellsburg has made a living for the last forty years.
 
2013-06-23 10:30:54 AM

Misconduc: Traitor is a traitor, doesn't matter where he stops he's eating a bullet.




Then shoot down the plane carrying him and call it done.
You know they've done worse things for less provocation.

The problem with calling people a traitor is it implies they gave aid to the enemy.
What he did was spill the beans on things the administration then claims were widely known, legal and inconsequential.
So who's the enemy? China? Russia? The American people? All the terrorists this program fails to catch?

What he did was steal data from his employer (the extent of which we still don't know), but why they want him is he embarrassed a bunch of politicians.
You don't get a fair or speedy trial for that crime. You get thrown in a hole and forgotten until a few election cycles have passed.

This is political now. If he catches a missile along his merry way then it becomes an international shiat storm. That might be a price a politician is willing to pay, but I'd prefer WWIII not get a kick start because our leaders got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

This surveillance program was wrong and ineffective. The right thing to do would be to burn it to the ground, admit we were wrong, and let this guy fade into obscurity.
 
2013-06-23 10:33:59 AM

way south: Then shoot down the plane carrying him and call it done.
You know they've done worse things for less provocation.


There's that "they" again.
 
2013-06-23 10:37:22 AM

Biological Ali: The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation"


we all mock the media for the shiatty job it does with holding politicians feet to the fire, how they are only after scandal and ratings, and their celebrity worship....but then they report on something that makes half the population go "I KNEW IT!" and they then forget about every single on of those criticisms and follow along because it's exactly what they wanted to hear.
 
2013-06-23 10:39:46 AM
If there was evidence that the NSA was acting as an eavesdropper for hire for insider trading, or selling info to corporations about their adversaries, or spying on politicians for their political opponents, then I would be fairly incensed.  The main part about this that I find problematic is that not only is the NSA outsourcing surveillance, they're outsourcing it to the lowest common denominator.
 
2013-06-23 10:42:41 AM

thamike: vinniethepoo: Because treason is specifically defined in the U.S. Constitution as providing aid and comfort to America's enemies during wartime? Whatever young Snowden's done, he hasn't done that.

It's a good thing he isn't charged with treason then.

Al-Awlaki?  That guy committed treason, and he was given the aforementioned punishment.  He's another darling of the Fark Freedom League.


Drone circling Venezuela in 3, 2, 1...
 
2013-06-23 10:45:01 AM

MurphyMurphy: Wherever he goes, Snowden's going to have to be very careful where he picks up his connecting flights.


Also careful that his flights don't have a chance of passing through airspace (US or international) controlled by US ATC.
 
2013-06-23 10:45:22 AM

chachi88: Drone circling Venezuela in 3, 2, 1...


Oh, man, now you've done it.  Blood in the water for Those Who Fear for You.
 
2013-06-23 10:46:44 AM

AndreMA: Also careful that his flights don't have a chance of passing through airspace (US or international) controlled by US ATC.


because?
 
2013-06-23 10:48:37 AM
I'm guessing most of the people here calling for death without due process are the ones who scream the loudest about action X being unconstitutional when person/party in power Y that they oppose does nearly anything.
 
2013-06-23 10:49:16 AM
Snowden does not sound like a reliable source of intelligence.  He was on the job for a very short time and may have been smart enough to realize that the lies he told about his education and training would catch upwith him.

This behavior by countries like Russia towards the U.S clearly illustrates the value of a reset button when dealing with Putin.  Its amazing how Putin supports our foreign policy and works together with us to help make the world safer.  Maybe if we mail him 10 reset buttons and promise to let him take Georgia, we'll get 10 times the cooperation.
 
2013-06-23 10:49:32 AM
We have some smug Mf'er here on Fark. Just because you feel it is ok to spy on everything because you are ok with it does not make it right...or the American thing to do. It's sneaky shiat. It undermines my trust in our government. It undermines our freedom. It screams a lack of integrity to do the right thing when we cannot see behind the veil of secrecy. I can't even have phone sex with my wife without a NSA 3-way. Fark that noise.
 
2013-06-23 10:50:23 AM

log_jammin: AndreMA: Also careful that his flights don't have a chance of passing through airspace (US or international) controlled by US ATC.

because?


Apparently the chuckleheads here think that we'd use US air power to force down a commerical jet to extract someone we'd like to arrest.

Given that we've let actual fugutives from justice live abroad for decades, I don't see that happening.  This guy isn't even as interesting as Bobby Fischer, and he spent a decade "hiding" in Iceland.
 
2013-06-23 10:51:40 AM

thamike: Mrtraveler01: What positive reforms are going to come out of this "national conversation"?

I think a lot of these people were either in grade school or just not paying attention a decade ago, when this legislation was in its infancy and was basically a blank check to all the agencies, even ones that don't have any business having it.

It's sort of like people who think terrorism is the biggest existential threat America has ever faced, and they say that with a straight face to people who grew up during the days of Mutually Assured Destruction.


I grew up in the days of MAD.  Terrorism is a bigger existential threat.  Why?  Because terrorists actually strike.  The US and the USSR were never going to have a hot war.  Neither side was or is suicidal.  Terrorists?  They are.
 
2013-06-23 10:53:13 AM

Dwight_Yeast: This guy isn't even as interesting as Bobby Fischer, and he spent a decade "hiding" in Iceland


I actually saw him several times in the downtown area. Always looked a little crazy.
 
2013-06-23 10:54:20 AM

yagottabefarkinkiddinme: It's sneaky shiat


It's a SPY agency. Just because the internet has revolutionized information exchange doesn't make everyone entitled to all information.  It's perfectly fair to want to know, and even try to find out.  But it's not necessarily info you are entitled to automatically receive.

And your wife likes it when they watch.
 
2013-06-23 10:55:51 AM

yagottabefarkinkiddinme: We have some smug Mf'er here on Fark. Just because you feel it is ok to spy on everything because you are ok with it does not make it right...or the American thing to do. It's sneaky shiat. It undermines my trust in our government. It undermines our freedom. It screams a lack of integrity to do the right thing when we cannot see behind the veil of secrecy. I can't even have phone sex with my wife without a NSA 3-way. Fark that noise.


...and like everyone else here who's having "OMG THE NSA IS SPYING ON ME!" reaction, you're vastly over-estimating your own importance in the universe.

The NSA isn't spying on you.  They're not spying on me.  They're collecting all the data they can, and then sifting through, looking for certain people, certain voices, certain connection.

They don't have the time or resorces to spy on you or me or Doroles Twatwaffle in Duluth; they have to run full out just to find the few scraps they're looking for; it's like gold-mining: you ignore the tons of worthless dirt you have to sift through to find a few flakes of gold.
 
2013-06-23 10:55:56 AM

yagottabefarkinkiddinme: I can't even have phone sex with my wife without a NSA 3-way. Fark that noise.


Yes.  You're SO interesting that the NSA is listening to your phone conversations.
 
2013-06-23 10:56:01 AM

letrole: Again, it's a privilege that comes with paying a phone bill.


Getting what you purchase is a privilege? Interesting theory.

2/10
 
2013-06-23 10:56:04 AM

Dwight_Yeast: Apparently the chuckleheads here think that we'd use US air power to force down a commerical jet to extract someone we'd like to arrest.

Given that we've let actual fugutives from justice live abroad for decades, I don't see that happening.  This guy isn't even as interesting as Bobby Fischer, and he spent a decade "hiding" in Iceland.


I was just hoping one would actually flat out say it instead of all the implying they like to do.
 
2013-06-23 10:56:53 AM
Cuba, huh? Lee Harvey Snowden.
 
2013-06-23 10:59:32 AM

sprgrss: I grew up in the days of MAD. Terrorism is a bigger existential threat. Why? Because terrorists actually strike. The US and the USSR were never going to have a hot war. Neither side was or is suicidal. Terrorists? They are.


That's not a bigger existential threat then the instantaneous destruction of the world as we know it and the deaths of almost everybody on it.  it might be more real to you because you've seen it happen, but it's simply not a bigger existential threat. MAD was what kept it from happening, yes, but that was a tenuous situation.  There was a real threat of nuclear war.  A couple of thousand screaming Arabs don't scare me. Well, unless they have a viable nuclear arsenal.
 
2013-06-23 10:59:42 AM

log_jammin: Dwight_Yeast: Apparently the chuckleheads here think that we'd use US air power to force down a commerical jet to extract someone we'd like to arrest.

Given that we've let actual fugutives from justice live abroad for decades, I don't see that happening.  This guy isn't even as interesting as Bobby Fischer, and he spent a decade "hiding" in Iceland.

I was just hoping one would actually flat out say it instead of all the implying they like to do.


They're afraid if they spell it out on the internet, the NSA will send the black helicopters or the drones or zombie Eldridge Cleaver for them.
 
2013-06-23 10:59:52 AM

log_jammin: AndreMA: Also careful that his flights don't have a chance of passing through airspace (US or international) controlled by US ATC.

because?


A convenient diversion for "weather" reasons to a US airport.
 
2013-06-23 11:01:24 AM

Cornelius Dribble: Cuba, huh? Lee Harvey Snowden.


Snowden's neither an assassin nor a patsy.  He's just a little thick in the head.
 
2013-06-23 11:02:28 AM

Dwight_Yeast: They're afraid if they spell it out on the internet, the NSA will send the black helicopters or the drones or zombie Eldridge Cleaver for them.


God, can you imagine if our intelligence community was even remotely that effective?
 
2013-06-23 11:03:43 AM

sendtodave: Anything that calls the legitimacy of the government into question, however, IS un-America.  Like him.


How's everything going over there in Simplemindedville?
 
2013-06-23 11:04:34 AM

sprgrss: thamike: Mrtraveler01: What positive reforms are going to come out of this "national conversation"?

I think a lot of these people were either in grade school or just not paying attention a decade ago, when this legislation was in its infancy and was basically a blank check to all the agencies, even ones that don't have any business having it.

It's sort of like people who think terrorism is the biggest existential threat America has ever faced, and they say that with a straight face to people who grew up during the days of Mutually Assured Destruction.

I grew up in the days of MAD.  Terrorism is a bigger existential threat.  Why?  Because terrorists actually strike.  The US and the USSR were never going to have a hot war.  Neither side was or is suicidal.  Terrorists?  They are.


I did as well. I think you're wrong. And the odds were MUCH higher. At worst a terrorist might be able to take out one US city with a loose nuke. They cannot destroy the United States. They cannot end human civilization. While in the middle of a fairly known situation it was very unlikely for either side in the Cold War to ever use nukes. However, it certainly was not impossible. Think of the Cuban Missile Crisis and then instances such as Able Archer in 1983. The threat was the unknown leading to mistakes that escalate into someone taking a stupid action. What was at stake was not some "low level" threat of losing three, a few hundred, thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of Americans. What was at stake was that the US and global civilization could be completely destroyed within an hour of any major misstep between two superpowers who did not exactly always make it easy to read what the other side was up to.

Of course, in both situations it seems the greatest harm to the US it has done to itself is its overreaction to perceived threat. In the Cold War we became a bit afraid of our own shadow if someone said the world "communist" and allowed the stepping on come civil liberties and stepped away from our own ideals abroad (installing/supporting ruthless dictators for example just because they said they were on "our side"). In this new fear of terrorism we do the same to ourselves for the fear of terrorism.
 
2013-06-23 11:04:57 AM

Dwight_Yeast: log_jammin: AndreMA: Also careful that his flights don't have a chance of passing through airspace (US or international) controlled by US ATC.

because?

Apparently the chuckleheads here think that we'd use US air power to force down a commerical jet to extract someone we'd like to arrest.

Given that we've let actual fugutives from justice live abroad for decades, I don't see that happening.  This guy isn't even as interesting as Bobby Fischer, and he spent a decade "hiding" in Iceland.


See above. All it would take would be for a judge to issue an order to air traffic control to divert the plane to a US airport. No missiles needed. It would be an international incident, but if drone strikes that actually kill people in countries we're not at war with are "permitted" why wouldn't such an abuse of air traffic control be?
 
2013-06-23 11:05:07 AM

AndreMA: log_jammin: AndreMA: Also careful that his flights don't have a chance of passing through airspace (US or international) controlled by US ATC.

because?

A convenient diversion for "weather" reasons to a US airport.


Wouldn't the plane have to be in U.S. airspace?
 
2013-06-23 11:06:04 AM

jack21221: thamike:
Nothing he has done has been out of necessity.

Necessity for his own safety and freedom. Sure, he COULD have just stayed in the US and been tortured like Manning was... but if I were in that position, I'd feel it was a necessity to flee.


If he wasn't a traitorous biatch, he wouldn't have that "necessity" now would he?
 
2013-06-23 11:08:13 AM

AndreMA: See above. All it would take would be for a judge to issue an order to air traffic control to divert the plane to a US airport. No missiles needed. It would be an international incident, but if drone strikes that actually kill people in countries we're not at war with are "permitted" why wouldn't such an abuse of air traffic control be?


And could you point out to me a single example of where we've actually done that?

Or is that just your paranoia talking?
 
2013-06-23 11:10:16 AM

Andromeda: quatchi: "Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...

Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with?  If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.


Or Cuba; then send Washington a Johnny Cash salute.
 
2013-06-23 11:12:02 AM

digistil: I predict after he hands over US intel sources to Russia, Pootie Poot offers him up to the US in exchange for something like staying out of Syria or the re-hiring of Paula Deen on the Food Network.


That deal better include the wholesale disappearance of certain Kardashians & Jenners.
 
2013-06-23 11:12:33 AM

AndreMA: t if drone strikes that actually kill people in countries we're not at war with are "permitted"


hey! quotes again! when you put quotes around a word that makes it suspicious without having to back up a statemen.. neat!
 
2013-06-23 11:12:35 AM

AndreMA: Dwight_Yeast: log_jammin: AndreMA: Also careful that his flights don't have a chance of passing through airspace (US or international) controlled by US ATC.

because?

Apparently the chuckleheads here think that we'd use US air power to force down a commerical jet to extract someone we'd like to arrest.

Given that we've let actual fugutives from justice live abroad for decades, I don't see that happening.  This guy isn't even as interesting as Bobby Fischer, and he spent a decade "hiding" in Iceland.

See above. All it would take would be for a judge to issue an order to air traffic control to divert the plane to a US airport. No missiles needed. It would be an international incident, but if drone strikes that actually kill people in countries we're not at war with are "permitted" why wouldn't such an abuse of air traffic control be?


Because I don't think the US government cares about this enough to create an international incident. People are freaking out about this as if the US government wants nothing short of him dead. Sure, some politicians are screaming, but I think that's largely because they think that saying big, dramatic things will help get them votes from their constituents and make sure they are not looking "soft" on national security. What did he do? He told us that the US government was doing something most people, and I'm guessing most intelligent enemies of the US, already suspected they were doing. So yes, there will be a lot of dramatic words, but this doesn't rise to the level of creating an international incident over it. Some of the population might be worked up into a tizzy over this, but I doubt the real people making real decisions are. Pissed off a bit? Yeah, some of them might be. Enough to act as stupidly as many seem to suggest they do? No, I seriously doubt it.
 
2013-06-23 11:14:04 AM

Anti_illuminati: National conversation? You mean the media failing to do any kind of actual analysis and armchair political activists like the teenagers over on Reddit whining about privacy, but at the same time posting random pics of creepos and fat people they take in public? This is no more a public issue than Kanye naming his baby North West. It is not smug to be privy to the same information that's been happening in the country for decades, nor the reaction the country takes. I'm sure the ones who are actually not surprised about this situation are the ones  actually doing something about it.


Barack Obama RAND PAUL will fix it if I just keep saying bad things about the government from the comfort of my computer chair!
 
2013-06-23 11:15:51 AM

DrPainMD: execute (after fair trials, of course)


Heh. Yeah.

inigomontoya.jpg
 
2013-06-23 11:16:31 AM

justoneznot: Good job US Government. You've gone so hard after him that the only logical place for him to go is a place we're most at odds with. And I'm sure they'll want to know everything he knows, and since the US government has been so hostile to him, he likely has lost any hesitation he might have had about giving up secret information to them.


B b b but, I thought he was doing this because he loves our country.

/ spying on US citizens is bad!
// spying on China is bad? O_o
 
2013-06-23 11:16:47 AM
And I love the cries of 'Stasi' from kids who wouldn't know the Stasi if they were dragged out of their house at night, beaten within an inch of their lives, and then left to rot in a cell for a month.
 
2013-06-23 11:17:51 AM

Dwight_Yeast: doczoidberg: All he did was tell the public what its own government was doing.

Anyone who thinks this is "treason" is kind of a dumbass.

Treason is a very specific charge in this country, defined in our constitution.

And this doesn't even come close. They're not even charging him with espionage.


If they reviewed even one document they weren't supposed to, and that's a pretty safe assumption, wouldn't that make him a whistleblower, with all the protections afforded under the whidtleblower protection act?

Besides, we're thinking rather locally about this. How do we have any right to criticize a man for revealing that we have our hand in the same cookie jar that we're all outraged about China eating from?
/cookie robots
 
2013-06-23 11:20:51 AM

maram500: Slaxl: digistil: MurphyMurphy: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Anyone that ever tried to make a difference.

I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

I sorta stopped following it, so I missed that, and I can't google at the moment because I'm wearing a towel. What intel did he give to the Chinese military, and what sources of intel did he give up?

What, exactly, is stopping you from Googling in said towel?


Shhhh... I'm enjoying the visual, don't ruin it.
 
2013-06-23 11:21:06 AM

generallyso: [img.fark.net image 500x636]



keep the little people afraid and watching each other.  makes our job alot easier.
 
2013-06-23 11:29:34 AM
Where is he?


img.fark.net

/This traitor is no champion of the left as some are making him out to be
 
2013-06-23 11:34:07 AM

DrPainMD: robohobo: So, Farkers, what's your balance? What are you willing to give up? How far are you willing to bend over in the name of 'security'?

0% security, 100% privacy.

Close all foreign bases and execute (after fair trials, of course) anybody who, while in the employ of the government or a contractor, violated any person's human rights in another country*, and the terrorism threat vanishes.

* - This would include a lot of the coverts ops guys from the CIA and almost all of the covert ops guys from the DoD.


http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=3005#comic">http:/ /www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=3005#comic
 
2013-06-23 11:35:06 AM
There is a great deal of amusing irony in the countries he's taken refuge in
 
2013-06-23 11:35:41 AM

skullkrusher: There is a great deal of amusing irony in the countries he's taken refuge in


or plans to travel through to take refuge in I should add
 
2013-06-23 11:37:35 AM
letrole: Again, it's a privilege that comes with paying a phone bill.
AndreMA: Getting what you purchase is a privilege? Interesting theory.

Yes, it's the theory that you must pay for the privilege of making calls. Even making arrangements for payment is not a right. If you're a deadbeat, the phone company might turn you down as a credit risk.

There is no right of telephony.

I'm not being awkward, but when did your desire to make snarky remarks outstrip your capacity to form coherent arguments?
 
2013-06-23 11:37:37 AM

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


Therefore, since the USA did that, it automatically means that Communist China, Russia, Cuba, and Venezuela are ideal paragons of liberal democracy? "Tu quoque" is a logical fallacy.
 
2013-06-23 11:44:03 AM
Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

img.fark.net
 
2013-06-23 11:45:38 AM

generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]


didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.
 
2013-06-23 11:48:11 AM

skullkrusher: generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]

didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.


Did he actually do that?

/must've missed the press release
 
2013-06-23 11:48:37 AM

thamike: Cornelius Dribble: Cuba, huh? Lee Harvey Snowden.

Snowden's neither an assassin nor a patsy.  He's just a little thick in the head.


For being thick in the head he sure is pulling a fast one on the US government.

I love how the government is saying "trust us" when their approval ratings is at 16%.  Caught the Sunday morning talking heads and I can't count how many times  politicians who came on TV said that "50 terrorist attacks were foiled" it seems everyone got the same talking points. It'd be great if they could give say 10 to 15 real examples, maybe I'd believe them then. Also, expect this to happen way more, with over 1 million contractors with TS clearance, it's not a matter of if someone is going to leak a ton more info, it's just a matter of when.
 
2013-06-23 11:49:35 AM

skullkrusher: generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]

didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.


It wouldn't be so bad if there were some altruistic motive to revealing that information, but for him it seems like it was pure self-interest.

Still, one can be a hero and dickbag (in fact, it's probably a fine line sometimes).
 
2013-06-23 11:52:23 AM

Mrtraveler01: skullkrusher: generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]

didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.

Did he actually do that?

/must've missed the press release


yeah, when he first got to Hong Kong - at the time it seemed a bone he threw to the Chinese to take his side in coming extradition request.

US cyberespionage on Chinese private and government interests. Ya know, like the Chinese do to US private and government interests all the time. This "hero" decided he wanted to share these dastardly actions with the Chinese. fark him.
 
2013-06-23 11:53:53 AM

SomebodyElsesShoes: skullkrusher: generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]

didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.

It wouldn't be so bad if there were some altruistic motive to revealing that information, but for him it seems like it was pure self-interest.

Still, one can be a hero and dickbag (in fact, it's probably a fine line sometimes).


Even if he did it for "altruistic" reasons, dick move. You're an American. You tell the American people about very sketchy domestic spying - good. You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad.
 
2013-06-23 11:54:09 AM

Reverend J: It'd be great if they could give say 10 to 15 real examples, maybe I'd believe them then.


...and this is why most people are too stupid to understand how intelligence works.
 
2013-06-23 11:54:21 AM
From China, to Russia, to Cuba, to Venezuela--that's a pretty interesting itinerary for an alleged self-motivated "whistle-blower" who spilled US government secrets. Why no Iceland? He'd be just as safe, albeit without the opportunity to have a lucrative career working hand-in-glove with the avowed enemies of the USA. My sympathy for him is dwindling quickly, based on his current choices.
 
2013-06-23 11:55:24 AM
Wonder where he got the money to travel ? Did China say here's some cash, get lost, we don't need the grief ?
 
2013-06-23 11:56:55 AM

cig-mkr: Wonder where he got the money to travel ? Did China say here's some cash, get lost, we don't need the grief ?


Bitcoin :)
 
2013-06-23 11:57:39 AM

skullkrusher: Mrtraveler01: skullkrusher: generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]

didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.

Did he actually do that?

/must've missed the press release

yeah, when he first got to Hong Kong - at the time it seemed a bone he threw to the Chinese to take his side in coming extradition request.

US cyberespionage on Chinese private and government interests. Ya know, like the Chinese do to US private and government interests all the time. This "hero" decided he wanted to share these dastardly actions with the Chinese. fark him.


that's the issue tho, a government is not insular from the rest of the world - it does not exist in a vacuum

the idea that the US gov't can get away with anything it wants is as short sighted as saying China should get away with whatever it wants

doing so basically negates both the trust of the American people and negates whatever leverage we have in relationships with other countries

spying is a gamble in itself - one that's necessary, spying on a systematic level of unprecedented magnitude is a gigantic gamble and nobody has really been able to justify its existence

the idea of getting rid of Snowden at this point is the equivalent of telling people there's nothing to see while an atomic explosion goes off in the background
 
2013-06-23 11:59:34 AM

thamike: AndreMA: log_jammin: AndreMA: Also careful that his flights don't have a chance of passing through airspace (US or international) controlled by US ATC.

because?

A convenient diversion for "weather" reasons to a US airport.

Wouldn't the plane have to be in U.S. airspace?


Someone handles the traffic in international airspace; there are treaties in place to determine which country handles mid-ocean traffic.
 
2013-06-23 12:02:24 PM

cig-mkr: Wonder where he got the money to travel ? Did China say here's some cash, get lost, we don't need the grief ?


I believe he's being helped by the Wikileaks people, who have access to supporters with deep pockets.
 
2013-06-23 12:03:36 PM

Silly_Sot: From China, to Russia, to Cuba, to Venezuela--that's a pretty interesting itinerary for an alleged self-motivated "whistle-blower" who spilled US government secrets. Why no Iceland? He'd be just as safe, albeit without the opportunity to have a lucrative career working hand-in-glove with the avowed enemies of the USA. My sympathy for him is dwindling quickly, based on his current choices.


Russia and China are now enemies? when do we go to war?
 
2013-06-23 12:03:55 PM
I periodically clean out my "ignore" list.

This appears to be an error.
 
2013-06-23 12:04:18 PM

AdamK: skullkrusher: Mrtraveler01: skullkrusher: generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]

didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.

Did he actually do that?

/must've missed the press release

yeah, when he first got to Hong Kong - at the time it seemed a bone he threw to the Chinese to take his side in coming extradition request.

US cyberespionage on Chinese private and government interests. Ya know, like the Chinese do to US private and government interests all the time. This "hero" decided he wanted to share these dastardly actions with the Chinese. fark him.

that's the issue tho, a government is not insular from the rest of the world - it does not exist in a vacuum

the idea that the US gov't can get away with anything it wants is as short sighted as saying China should get away with whatever it wants

doing so basically negates both the trust of the American people and negates whatever leverage we have in relationships with other countries

spying is a gamble in itself - one that's necessary, spying on a systematic level of unprecedented magnitude is a gigantic gamble and nobody has really been able to justify its existence

the idea of getting rid of Snowden at this point is the equivalent of telling people there's nothing to see while an atomic explosion goes off in the background


and we have no public evidence that the Chinese are doing the same to us... mainly cuz there is no Chinese version of Snowden yet.

It's bullshiat. That is national security stuff. That is shiat that can have extreme impact on diplomatic relations. shiat, we have spies in the UK. This is what countries do. You just don't come out and say it though
 
2013-06-23 12:07:19 PM

generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]


It also requires two witnesses to the same overt act.
 
2013-06-23 12:08:22 PM

Biological Ali: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.


Right, because we were this close to addressing this problem before Snowden did his thing. Darn him!
 
2013-06-23 12:08:53 PM

skullkrusher: AdamK: skullkrusher: Mrtraveler01: skullkrusher: generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]

didn't have an issue with Snowden til he started to tell the Chinese about US spying activities on Chinese interests. Now he can go fark himself. Hero to dickbag in the space of a few lines of a press release.

Did he actually do that?

/must've missed the press release

yeah, when he first got to Hong Kong - at the time it seemed a bone he threw to the Chinese to take his side in coming extradition request.

US cyberespionage on Chinese private and government interests. Ya know, like the Chinese do to US private and government interests all the time. This "hero" decided he wanted to share these dastardly actions with the Chinese. fark him.

that's the issue tho, a government is not insular from the rest of the world - it does not exist in a vacuum

the idea that the US gov't can get away with anything it wants is as short sighted as saying China should get away with whatever it wants

doing so basically negates both the trust of the American people and negates whatever leverage we have in relationships with other countries

spying is a gamble in itself - one that's necessary, spying on a systematic level of unprecedented magnitude is a gigantic gamble and nobody has really been able to justify its existence

the idea of getting rid of Snowden at this point is the equivalent of telling people there's nothing to see while an atomic explosion goes off in the background

and we have no public evidence that the Chinese are doing the same to us... mainly cuz there is no Chinese version of Snowden yet.

It's bullshiat. That is national security stuff. That is shiat that can have extreme impact on diplomatic relations. shiat, we have spies in the UK. This is what countries do. You just don't come out and say it though


wait, what? there's been obvious evidence of Chinese hacking/tracking for years, every year american companies gripe about it with the US gov't and it makes the news sometimes

the chinese deny it of course, but i doubt a chinese snowden would change anything either

but that's the point right? the chinese gov't doesn't answer to anybody but the chinese gov't, they're not a democracy, we are, hence why it's a big deal
 
2013-06-23 12:10:59 PM
Not to try to push this discussion in a different direction(let's face it, the shiat-tossing on both sides is entertaining), but there's one question nobody seems to have asked yet.  All this data the government is pulling that according to some represents a massive intrusion into personal privacy is coming from corporate servers.  So, apparently you're all fine with Google, AT&T, Verizon, etc having and using this data with oversight only from shareholders, yet it's full-on panic mode when the government gets its hands on this data even though there is, at least ostensibly, some restraint and oversight.  Google watching your email for economic advantage?  All good.  NSA watching your emails because some people are afraid of terrorists?  INVASION OF PRIVACY!111!

We now return you to the regularly scheduled Sunday morning babble-fest.

Cheers.
 
2013-06-23 12:12:02 PM

skullkrusher: You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad


Do you really think the Russians and Chinese weren't already aware that we were spying on them? Can you point to any classified methods or sources that Snowden revealed that were plausibly secret?

(That the local CIA station is in the embassy might be "classified", but please be serious.)
 
2013-06-23 12:14:09 PM

AdamK: the chinese deny it of course, but i doubt a chinese snowden would change anything either


and we denied it to. Until a farking turncoat in our intel decided to blow the lid off of it

AdamK: but that's the point right? the chinese gov't doesn't answer to anybody but the chinese gov't, they're not a democracy, we are, hence why it's a big deal


I guess I am just not shocked or upset that we don't get to vote a referendum on what covert ops the country engages in. Hacking some Chinese computers does not morally trouble me - it in no way makes me relieved that the cat is out of the bag. I have zero outrage about it. He didn't do the American people a service. He did the Chinese government a service by revealing that info. Again, fark him.
 
2013-06-23 12:14:50 PM

WorldCitizen: I'm guessing most of the people here calling for death without due process are the ones who scream the loudest about action X being unconstitutional when person/party in power Y that they oppose does nearly anything.


I'm finding it useful to know who the violent psychos are.
 
2013-06-23 12:15:41 PM

Evil High Priest: Biological Ali: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.

Right, because we were this close to addressing this problem before Snowden did his thing. Darn him!


And after Snowden did his thing look at how close we are to making any significant changes as far as spying on people is concerned!
 
2013-06-23 12:16:01 PM

AndreMA: skullkrusher: You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad

Do you really think the Russians and Chinese weren't already aware that we were spying on them? Can you point to any classified methods or sources that Snowden revealed that were plausibly secret?

(That the local CIA station is in the embassy might be "classified", but please be serious.)


of course they assumed. And, as I said, there was no public indication that we were.  Therefore, diplomatic relations behaved as such. We maintained our ability to deny it, just as they do. Now we can't. They still can.
 
2013-06-23 12:16:42 PM

AndreMA: skullkrusher: You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad

Do you really think the Russians and Chinese weren't already aware that we were spying on them? Can you point to any classified methods or sources that Snowden revealed that were plausibly secret?

(That the local CIA station is in the embassy might be "classified", but please be serious.)


Project Tempora is by far the biggest thing he's revealed, and most significant. But not under US jurisdiction.
 
2013-06-23 12:19:27 PM

Brian_of_Nazareth: Not to try to push this discussion in a different direction(let's face it, the shiat-tossing on both sides is entertaining), but there's one question nobody seems to have asked yet.  All this data the government is pulling that according to some represents a massive intrusion into personal privacy is coming from corporate servers.  So, apparently you're all fine with Google, AT&T, Verizon, etc having and using this data with oversight only from shareholders, yet it's full-on panic mode when the government gets its hands on this data even though there is, at least ostensibly, some restraint and oversight.  Google watching your email for economic advantage?  All good.  NSA watching your emails because some people are afraid of terrorists?  INVASION OF PRIVACY!111!

We now return you to the regularly scheduled Sunday morning babble-fest.

Cheers.


welcome to fark.com when this guy first leaked the information

nobody has any real privacy anymore, some care some don't, it's really about how information gets used
 
2013-06-23 12:19:39 PM

AndreMA: I periodically clean out my "ignore" list.

This appears to be an error.


I tried that once.  First thread I jumped into was a Martin/Zimmerman thread.  That list got repopulated pretty quickly.
 
2013-06-23 12:19:40 PM

skullkrusher: AdamK: the chinese deny it of course, but i doubt a chinese snowden would change anything either

and we denied it to. Until a farking turncoat in our intel decided to blow the lid off of it

AdamK: but that's the point right? the chinese gov't doesn't answer to anybody but the chinese gov't, they're not a democracy, we are, hence why it's a big deal

I guess I am just not shocked or upset that we don't get to vote a referendum on what covert ops the country engages in. Hacking some Chinese computers does not morally trouble me - it in no way makes me relieved that the cat is out of the bag. I have zero outrage about it. He didn't do the American people a service. He did the Chinese government a service by revealing that info. Again, fark him.


You think the Chinese government didn't already know? The only thing he's handed the Chinese government is a lovely publicity piece by them now being able to throw back into the face of the US its own electronic surveillance of its own people and its electronic espionage (that everyone knew we would be doing anyway) of other countries when we complain about Chinese electronic espionage. It's not great for US soft power, but it's not some great secret broken open that changes the game on the espionage ground.
 
2013-06-23 12:21:21 PM

WorldCitizen: skullkrusher: AdamK: the chinese deny it of course, but i doubt a chinese snowden would change anything either

and we denied it to. Until a farking turncoat in our intel decided to blow the lid off of it

AdamK: but that's the point right? the chinese gov't doesn't answer to anybody but the chinese gov't, they're not a democracy, we are, hence why it's a big deal

I guess I am just not shocked or upset that we don't get to vote a referendum on what covert ops the country engages in. Hacking some Chinese computers does not morally trouble me - it in no way makes me relieved that the cat is out of the bag. I have zero outrage about it. He didn't do the American people a service. He did the Chinese government a service by revealing that info. Again, fark him.

You think the Chinese government didn't already know? The only thing he's handed the Chinese government is a lovely publicity piece by them now being able to throw back into the face of the US its own electronic surveillance of its own people and its electronic espionage (that everyone knew we would be doing anyway) of other countries when we complain about Chinese electronic espionage. It's not great for US soft power, but it's not some great secret broken open that changes the game on the espionage ground.


also the locations of hacks. Do you think the Chinese government knew we hacked a university computer system? Practical info and PR damage. Fark him. He did no service to the American people in this regard.
 
2013-06-23 12:21:56 PM
This guy just gets more awesome by the minute! Not only has he performed a service to humanity for riling up this shiat storm, he did it while trolling both the left and the right in US gov't and every boot licking douche in America.

PLUS, he's clearly set himself up to be balls deep in at least half of Pussy Riot by the end of the year!! I really really hope he doesn't get droned, cause this is looking to be a great and satisfying long troll!
 
2013-06-23 12:22:00 PM

Dwight_Yeast: yagottabefarkinkiddinme: We have some smug Mf'er here on Fark. Just because you feel it is ok to spy on everything because you are ok with it does not make it right...or the American thing to do. It's sneaky shiat. It undermines my trust in our government. It undermines our freedom. It screams a lack of integrity to do the right thing when we cannot see behind the veil of secrecy. I can't even have phone sex with my wife without a NSA 3-way. Fark that noise.

...and like everyone else here who's having "OMG THE NSA IS SPYING ON ME!" reaction, you're vastly over-estimating your own importance in the universe.

The NSA isn't spying on you.  They're not spying on me.  They're collecting all the data they can, and then sifting through, looking for certain people, certain voices, certain connection.

They don't have the time or resorces to spy on you or me or Doroles Twatwaffle in Duluth; they have to run full out just to find the few scraps they're looking for; it's like gold-mining: you ignore the tons of worthless dirt you have to sift through to find a few flakes of gold.


And in ten years when Ms. Twatwaffle is considering her Senate run, her esteemed opponent who 'knows a guy' will find all he needs to destroy her.
 
2013-06-23 12:22:53 PM

skullkrusher: AndreMA: skullkrusher: You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad

Do you really think the Russians and Chinese weren't already aware that we were spying on them? Can you point to any classified methods or sources that Snowden revealed that were plausibly secret?

(That the local CIA station is in the embassy might be "classified", but please be serious.)

of course they assumed. And, as I said, there was no public indication that we were.  Therefore, diplomatic relations behaved as such. We maintained our ability to deny it, just as they do. Now we can't. They still can.


I think they probably did a little more than "assumed" -- the concept of counter-intelligence is not foreign to them. The only "ability to deny" amounted to an ability to lie to the public. I see no change except that the US electorate is a bit better informed.
 
2013-06-23 12:24:11 PM
He's a Promethean John Galt Knowledge Worker type selling his knowledge to the highest bidder.  Why do you hate Capitalism, subby?
 
2013-06-23 12:24:35 PM

log_jammin: sendtodave: I don't trust any of these people not to lie or act out of self interest.

That's a very easy and safe opinion to have. doesn't require much thinking or intellectually honesty on your part.


How is "You can't trust any of your owners" intellectually dishonest?

Seems pretty "Occam's Razor" to me.

The look out for themselves, and their enrichment, first.  I trust a high school dropout that is willing to risk his future more than any one of our "representatives."

Because he has something to lose.  These guys?  They never lose, no matter how inept, incompetent, or downright evil they are.

Maybe Snowden's head is out of whack, who knows.  But his heart is in the right place.  That's ore than I've seen for any politician that claims to represent the people.
 
2013-06-23 12:24:44 PM

AndreMA: skullkrusher: AndreMA: skullkrusher: You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad

Do you really think the Russians and Chinese weren't already aware that we were spying on them? Can you point to any classified methods or sources that Snowden revealed that were plausibly secret?

(That the local CIA station is in the embassy might be "classified", but please be serious.)

of course they assumed. And, as I said, there was no public indication that we were.  Therefore, diplomatic relations behaved as such. We maintained our ability to deny it, just as they do. Now we can't. They still can.

I think they probably did a little more than "assumed" -- the concept of counter-intelligence is not foreign to them. The only "ability to deny" amounted to an ability to lie to the public. I see no change except that the US electorate is a bit better informed.


The US is behind 7 proxies. They had no idea
 
2013-06-23 12:25:23 PM

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


The President also declared that he can assassinate US citizens with no due process. The government announced they were going to investigate every journalist, they had the site where you can rat on your neighbors, the IRS now has complete control over your medical records and history and can target you for political affiliations.

We haven't publicly ran over college students in tanks yet, but give us 3 years.
 
2013-06-23 12:26:44 PM

sprgrss: I grew up in the days of MAD.  Terrorism is a bigger existential threat.  Why?  Because terrorists actually strike.  The US and the USSR were never going to have a hot war.  Neither side was or is suicidal.  Terrorists?  They are.


It's easy to sit here and say in retrospect that the cold war was nothing because the US and the USSR never lobbed nukes at each other, but the consequences of that happening would have been devastating to the whole world, not just those 2 countries.

Terrorists?  Yeah, they do actually strike, but most of the time it's pretty lame in the overall scheme of things.  It's probably little consolation if you or someone close to you is killed in a terrorist attack, but the casualty figures are pretty darned small.

I'm not scared of terrorism.  I'm not scared of nutjobs who arm themselves with "assault weapons" and go on shooting sprees.  I'm more likely to die in a car accident and I'm not particularly scared that will happen.  I do take reasonable precautions.  I wear a seat belt.  My car is equipped with air bags.  I don't drive like a maniac.  Those are reasonable precautions.  I don't confine myself in my own home and have everything delivered for fear of getting in a car accident.  That would be unreasonable.

Probably one of the reasons the US and USSR never went to war is because the leaders of both countries remembered WWII. According to Wikipedia, the US lost 418,500 lives but the Soviet Union lost between 22 and 30 million people.  China lost between 10 and 20 million people.  The total loss of life is somewhere between 60 and 85 million.

The numbers are staggering.  It's not really that surprising that we haven't wanted to repeat that since then and when I say "we" I don't just mean the US.  I mean everyone in the world.

Terrorism barely registers in the grand scheme of deaths due to other than natural causes.
 
2013-06-23 12:27:06 PM

AndreMA: skullkrusher: You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad

Do you really think the Russians and Chinese weren't already aware that we were spying on them? Can you point to any classified methods or sources that Snowden revealed that were plausibly secret?

(That the local CIA station is in the embassy might be "classified", but please be serious.)


It's usually someone in "communications", and has been for decades. I don't think we really bother hiding it in most cases.
 
2013-06-23 12:29:32 PM

log_jammin: I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people."


"He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."


Al Franken has always chosen the Entertainment Industry and Tech Industry over the US Citizen. Always. He is a bought and sold whore like the rest of them. You are a partisan fool to trust him.
 
2013-06-23 12:29:49 PM

Don't Troll Me Bro!: AndreMA: I periodically clean out my "ignore" list.

This appears to be an error.

I tried that once.  First thread I jumped into was a Martin/Zimmerman thread.  That list got repopulated pretty quickly.


Some threads bring out the loons (and I'm sure that some will see me as one of them).

I do wish, though, that there was the ability to suspend the ignore function on a temporary per-thread basis. Some folks have a tendency to threadshiat on particular subjects while still having interesting things to say on others. (Again, others no doubt have that view of me)
 
2013-06-23 12:31:44 PM

Evil High Priest: And in ten years when Ms. Twatwaffle is considering her Senate run, her esteemed opponent who 'knows a guy' will find all he needs to destroy her.


Yes, that's the way it works and no sitting Senator ever looses their seat. *eyeroll*

This is what pisses me off most about this story: it highlights just how ignorant, paranoid and self-important most Americans are.
 
2013-06-23 12:33:25 PM

WorldCitizen: The only thing he's handed the Chinese government is a lovely publicity piece by them now being able to throw back into the face of the US its own electronic surveillance of its own people and its electronic espionage (that everyone knew we would be doing anyway) of other countries when we complain about Chinese electronic espionage.


Yup.  This.

He didn't give away anything of value, other than proof that the US is just the same as anyone, and can't claim the moral high ground.  That we are first rate hypocrites when we talk of "freedom."

For that, he will be pilloried.  Because it's really a domestic issue.
 
2013-06-23 12:35:20 PM

Dwight_Yeast: AndreMA: skullkrusher: You tell a major global rival about spying on them - bad

Do you really think the Russians and Chinese weren't already aware that we were spying on them? Can you point to any classified methods or sources that Snowden revealed that were plausibly secret?

(That the local CIA station is in the embassy might be "classified", but please be serious.)

It's usually someone in "communications", and has been for decades. I don't think we really bother hiding it in most cases.


Sure -- but it's likely still technically classified. Just like things classified at a relatively low level that I and millions of others learned in the course of military service.

I'm also sure that what little I recall is completely outdated, useless, was probably useless in 1980, and poses a grave risk of boring to death anyone I were to hypothetically expose it to.
 
2013-06-23 12:36:29 PM
img.fark.net

img.fark.net

oh please, oh please, oh please, oh please...
 
2013-06-23 12:37:11 PM

Dwight_Yeast: Yes, that's the way it works and no sitting Senator ever looses their seat. *eyeroll*


Except sex scandals?

/priorities!
 
2013-06-23 12:37:49 PM
I get the whole debate on whether Snowden is a Hero or a Traitor, but I don't think there is ANY debate that what he did is illegal. When you compare what Daniel Ellsberg did in the 70s vs how Edward Snowden did things it looks both idiotic and sketchy. Ellsberg leaked the pentagon papers to the New York Times and Washington Post after first bringing it before members of congress to try and make it a government issue. Ellsberg stayed in the US and turned himself over to the justice system. Snowden leaks classified information to a foreign newspaper in a highly questionable country that is well known for spying on the US and is on the run now moving from through sketchy countries. Like with Ellsberg it could be found through the courts that what he has done was in the nations best interest... but... I highly doubt that will happen since he is making his case look really bad by leaking to foreign newspapers, staying in sketchy countries and running from the US justice system. If he believes so strongly that what he did was in the best interest of the US he should turn himself in, like Ellsberg did, he can make his case and if the american people and the US justice system agree he will not be found guilty.
 
2013-06-23 12:38:03 PM
So you point out a corporation is doing sleazy and questionable things and you are  a whistle-blower. You point out your Government is doing sleazy and questionable things and you are a traitor?
Apparently I am not clear on these concepts.
 
2013-06-23 12:38:46 PM

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


Don't include me in that group.  US torture was created and applauded by conservative Christians, not real Americans.  Filth like that crowd should be ejected from the US for being traitors.

As far as Snowden, he is suck a f**k up that whoever hired him should be brought up on charges as well.
 
2013-06-23 12:39:02 PM
I've long opposed our government's war on privacy. Other than the invasion of Panama it is the most successful war of my lifetime. I hate the legislators who rubberstamp these programs. To me they are the traitors, who everyday rationalize compromising the Constitution.

Of course the only places someone could readily hide are countries who would welcome him as a symbol of the anti American propaganda they feed their people and have enough power to withstand American pressure to extradite him. If I were in his shoes Russia would be at the top of my list because the propaganda value would top the intelligence value and have far longer lasting effect.

It still isn't a good choice but there isn't really a good one available. Meet with Putin, agree to an English language propaganda blog aimed at gaining African support to compete with China for resource development and rallying anti intelligence protestors in the US, and do speaking tours around their sphere of influence on the duplicity of US policies. Book him on the Russian equivalent of Oprah and Letterman as their pet American defector. Let him write some books and give him a proffesorship in some university rehashing the negative side of US government and culture.

Makes far more sense than Iceland unless he is a hardcore Eve Online player.
 
2013-06-23 12:39:52 PM
*such

Angry this morning at the conservative Christians who are destroying this country.
 
2013-06-23 12:45:45 PM

Brian_of_Nazareth: Not to try to push this discussion in a different direction(let's face it, the shiat-tossing on both sides is entertaining), but there's one question nobody seems to have asked yet.  All this data the government is pulling that according to some represents a massive intrusion into personal privacy is coming from corporate servers.  So, apparently you're all fine with Google, AT&T, Verizon, etc having and using this data with oversight only from shareholders, yet it's full-on panic mode when the government gets its hands on this data even though there is, at least ostensibly, some restraint and oversight.  Google watching your email for economic advantage?  All good.  NSA watching your emails because some people are afraid of terrorists?  INVASION OF PRIVACY!111!

We now return you to the regularly scheduled Sunday morning babble-fest.

Cheers.


Actually, I don't think we're all fine with how private businesses use our information.  I've seen a few people praise it because they get ads they want to see instead of random crap that they may or may not be interested in but I am bothered by it.

I was bothered when I found out my employer was selling names of customers 25 years ago.  They viewed it as revenue and since people were willing to buy names and addresses for ~20 cents each and they had thousands of customers every year I can't really blame them for taking advantage of that opportunity but I didn't like what was happening.

I do feel it's worse when the government does it though.  If law enforcement suspects me of a crime they can get a warrant.  Until they get a warrant, they should stay the hell out of my private life though.
 
2013-06-23 12:47:38 PM
This one is for Edward Snowden, Julian Assange and all of the rest of YOU out their riding free!

Steppenwolf - Born To Be Wild

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMbATaj7Il8&feature=player_embedded
 
2013-06-23 12:50:35 PM

AndreMA: Don't Troll Me Bro!: AndreMA: I periodically clean out my "ignore" list.
This appears to be an error.
I tried that once.  First thread I jumped into was a Martin/Zimmerman thread.  That list got repopulated pretty quickly.
Some threads bring out the loons (and I'm sure that some will see me as one of them).
I do wish, though, that there was the ability to suspend the ignore function on a temporary per-thread basis. Some folks have a tendency to threadshiat on particular subjects while still having interesting things to say on others. (Again, others no doubt have that view of me)


I don't get the reason for ignore lists, it seems like self-censoring. Reading the posts of those I consider idiots is part of the fun of a forum like this, isn't it? Also, it's always good to know what the "enemy" is up to.
 
2013-06-23 12:52:06 PM

Dwight_Yeast: This is what pisses me off most about this story: it highlights just how ignorant, paranoid and self-important most Americans are.


They don't hate us because of our freedoms, they don't hate us because of our drones, they hate us because of this.

Their kids are starving and living third world problems. Ours are fat and crying about first world problems.

AndreMA: Except sex scandals?


Tell that to Mike Dewine and Norm Coleman.
 
2013-06-23 12:52:46 PM

AndreMA: Dwight_Yeast: Yes, that's the way it works and no sitting Senator ever looses their seat. *eyeroll*

Except sex scandals?

/priorities!


Politicians are stupid enough to reveal their own sex scandals without any help from the NSA: wittness Anthony Weiner, who posted a shot of his own cock to his twitter feed, or Jonathan Edwards, who knocked up his mistress while his wife was dying of cancer!

When you're spying on people by recording them or tapping their phonecalls, there's something I think of as the "Hoover rule": you can't use the information you gather in that manner without people finding out how you got it.

J Edgar Hoover used to run illegal wiretaps on everyone.  He had recordings of Martin Luther King having sex with various women who weren't his wife. Hoover loathed MLK, but there was nothing he could do with the dirt his had, which only made him madder, as to release it would have revealed the source and the fact that it have been obtained illegally.
 
2013-06-23 12:56:09 PM

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Dwight_Yeast: This is what pisses me off most about this story: it highlights just how ignorant, paranoid and self-important most Americans are.

They don't hate us because of our freedoms, they don't hate us because of our drones, they hate us because of this.


No, I hate us because of this.  Something that's been common knowledge for twenty years shows up on the nightly news, and half the population of this country start behaving like Grandma Mildred, certain that they live in a police state where the NSA is keeping track of whether their panties are clean or not.
 
2013-06-23 12:58:51 PM

AndreMA: Dwight_Yeast: Yes, that's the way it works and no sitting Senator ever looses their seat. *eyeroll*

Except sex scandals?

/priorities!


Unless you are a family-values conservative Christian heterosexual and you ask Jeebus for forgiveness.  Then you're probably OK

img.fark.net
 
2013-06-23 01:00:57 PM

Mrtraveler01: SurfaceTension: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Oliver North?

Or was it that he was all three at once, depending on who you asked?

The fact he's a commentator on Fox News instead of rotting in a prison somewhere is one of the greatest injustices to befall our criminal system.


"If the President does it, then it isn't a crime."  --  Richard Nixon
 
2013-06-23 01:01:45 PM

instantwin: AndreMA: Don't Troll Me Bro!: AndreMA: I periodically clean out my "ignore" list.
This appears to be an error.
I tried that once.  First thread I jumped into was a Martin/Zimmerman thread.  That list got repopulated pretty quickly.
Some threads bring out the loons (and I'm sure that some will see me as one of them).
I do wish, though, that there was the ability to suspend the ignore function on a temporary per-thread basis. Some folks have a tendency to threadshiat on particular subjects while still having interesting things to say on others. (Again, others no doubt have that view of me)

I don't get the reason for ignore lists, it seems like self-censoring. Reading the posts of those I consider idiots is part of the fun of a forum like this, isn't it? Also, it's always good to know what the "enemy" is up to.


It is self-censoring... in the same way that spam filters are.

To use fictitious examples, I don't need to see the same "APOLLO WAS A HOAX!" nonsense by the same persons in every thread even remotely related to manned spaceflight... or "9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB!!!1!!one!" in every discussion that even touches on terrorism. There's no novelty or interest left in those subjects for me.

Of course if you enjoy that, more power to you.

/ain't nobody got time for that
 
2013-06-23 01:06:24 PM

Anti_illuminati: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

National conversation? You mean the media failing to do any kind of actual analysis and armchair political activists like the teenagers over on Reddit whining about privacy, but at the same time posting random pics of creepos and fat people they take in public? This is no more a public issue than Kanye naming his baby North West. It is not smug to be privy to the same information that's been happening in the country for decades, nor the reaction the country takes. I'm sure the ones who are actually not surprised about this situation are the ones  actually doing something about it.


Well, there are journalists of integrity like Michael Hastings who...oh wait.
 
2013-06-23 01:09:27 PM
today in the news, sarah palin decries the loss of the fourth amendment. While completely ignoring that her retard congress can stop the spying in a quick majority vote.

/Other countries wait for bush jr and dick cheney to visit so those traitors of freedom can be put on trial for 'crimes against humanity'
//Except canada of course, as harper is the republicans servant.
 
2013-06-23 01:13:49 PM

Lsherm: I hope they kill him.  He's not a hero, he's a narcissist with an overinflated sense of self-worth who has deluded himself into thinking he's done something good.  He hasn't.  He's just been giving away US intelligence secrets because he's too stupid to do anything else.

When he dies, and it will be soon, I hope it is painful.


Have a big bowl of "go fark yourself" for breakfast this morning. Don't worry about paying for it. It's on me.
 
2013-06-23 01:19:37 PM

OgreMagi: Dude!  You're undermining your entire stance!  If you go to North Korea I'm going to have to side with the government.  I don't want to side with the farking government!  So don't do that!


how do any personal circumstances, short of selling intelligence to u.s. enemies, undermine his stance? so what if he goes to a country that is actively adverse to the u.s. if that means he can maintain his freedom? hasn't he done enough for us? must he also be a martyr?
hell, the pentagon papers were a retrospective look at stuff that had gone on many year earlier and well after the abuses and lies had run their natural course.
they don't come close to this.
Snowden risked his life and liberty (and moreover a nice life making 200k and living with stripper in Hawaii as a 27 year old) when he had no legal, moral or professional responsibility to the citizens of the united states, but he still did so to uncover for us the raping of the u.s. constitution.
he's up there with sergeant york among the greatest heroes of the last century. actually it's doubtful there has ever been more heroic action taken by an American since the revolutionary war.
 
2013-06-23 01:20:55 PM

wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.




Where is the gleeful joy?
 
2013-06-23 01:21:59 PM

log_jammin: I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people."


"He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."


Look, don't try to distract people from their crusade against the windmills.  Those things are NSA eavesdropping stations, can't you see?
 
2013-06-23 01:24:22 PM

MurphyMurphy: Wherever he goes, Snowden's going to have to be very careful where he picks up his connecting flights.


And which airports those flights have designated for dropping off "problem passengers".  All the US needs to do is hire a plant to catch the same plane, and start making a commotion at the right time.
 
2013-06-23 01:24:50 PM

Evil High Priest: Biological Ali: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

The current media circus isn't remotely close to a "national conversation" - at least, not the kind associated with constructive political discourse. Not only was this not "needed", but nothing's going to come out of it either. Snowden's basically poisoned the well with his stupidity, and any serious talk about reform will now have to wait till well after this sideshow dies out.

Right, because we were this close to addressing this problem before Snowden did his thing. Darn him!


It doesn't matter how far away you thought reform was before Snowden, the point is that it's much, much farther now because of his idiocy. The most damaging part of all of this is the the massive flood of misinformation sweeping across the internet due to people like him and Greenwald (and no, I don't buy Greenwald's excuse of "Oh I didn't claim anything; I just presented a leading message and let people draw their own conclusions"; I still hold him responsible). Obviously you're not going to see much in the way of positive reform based on the outrage of someone whose premise is fundamentally flawed to begin with.

Before the "national conversation" can even start to approach something resembling sane and constructive political discourse, all of this will have to die down - this includes more or less anyone calling Snowden a "whistleblower" or suggesting that he brought to life information about something that was "illegal" or "unconstitutional". Of course, the one bit of good news is that said outrage isn't that significant to begin with; it seems more an internet subculture thing than a genuine political movement.

The serious media outlets have more or less let it go and are just focusing on stories about Snowden himself, but even that's just a pointless distraction; the sooner his little story gets resolved, the better.
 
2013-06-23 01:27:31 PM

nekulor: Lsherm: I hope they kill him.  He's not a hero, he's a narcissist with an overinflated sense of self-worth who has deluded himself into thinking he's done something good.  He hasn't.  He's just been giving away US intelligence secrets because he's too stupid to do anything else.

When he dies, and it will be soon, I hope it is painful.

Have a big bowl of "go fark yourself" for breakfast this morning. Don't worry about paying for it. It's on me.


Hey, now. Lsherm is a very valuable FARK resource!!  He's an infallible derpometer: The more he hates something, the more you can be sure it's a good thing!

Snowden seems a bit weaselly, but until we have a press that does it's fkn job, I say keep the Assanges/Mannings/Snowdens coming.
 
2013-06-23 01:27:38 PM

generallyso: Sure are a lot of people throwing around the T-word.

[img.fark.net image 400x400]


So as long as you reveal classified information to a journalist, it doesn't matter if it's about how we're trying to hack Medvedev's phone, it's ok?
 
2013-06-23 01:32:12 PM

StoPPeRmobile: wisher21: Who cares if you knew it was going on or not. The release of this information is the direct reason we're having a national conversation about whether this is appropriate. It's providing concrete evidence of what was suspected, even reported on, but ignored. It's not being ignored anymore, and that's why it's important.

Really, saying "well gee I knew about this way back in blah blah blah blah" is just being smug. No one cares when you knew about it or how well informed you were. That this is finally front and center in the public eye is exactly what was needed.

Where is the gleeful joy?


And what a joke of a national conversation this turned out to be.

Has there been any positive reforms being proposed to scale this back or have we only gone so far as to say "OMG...GOVERNMENT IS SPYING ON US!!! LET'S PANIC!!!"

Because to be this looks like an opportunity being squandered by the tin-fol hat brigade in this country.

/Gave up hope that programs like these would ever be scaled back
 
2013-06-23 01:33:00 PM

Lionel Mandrake: nekulor: Lsherm: I hope they kill him.  He's not a hero, he's a narcissist with an overinflated sense of self-worth who has deluded himself into thinking he's done something good.  He hasn't.  He's just been giving away US intelligence secrets because he's too stupid to do anything else.

When he dies, and it will be soon, I hope it is painful.

Have a big bowl of "go fark yourself" for breakfast this morning. Don't worry about paying for it. It's on me.

Hey, now. Lsherm is a very valuable FARK resource!!  He's an infallible derpometer: The more he hates something, the more you can be sure it's a good thing!

Snowden seems a bit weaselly, but until we have a press that does it's fkn job, I say keep the Assanges/Mannings/Snowdens coming.


This.
 
2013-06-23 01:34:25 PM
Actually, I should amend my previous statement somewhat - the one potentially positive thing for the US that's likely to emerge from this mess is the intelligence agencies tightening up and making sure that people like Snowden don't get anywhere near anything important from now on.
 
2013-06-23 01:36:22 PM

Biological Ali: Actually, I should amend my previous statement somewhat - the one potentially positive thing for the US that's likely to emerge from this mess is the intelligence agencies tightening up and making sure that people like Snowden don't get anywhere near anything important from now on.


That way they can tap us without us knowing.

Awesome!
 
2013-06-23 01:38:13 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Snowden seems a bit weaselly, but until we have a press that does it's fkn job, I say keep the Assanges/Mannings/Snowdens coming.


Manning could have been forgiven being wrong about "Collateral Murder" and just written-off as having a strong moral center.  But releasing 250,000 pages of stuff whose content he couldn't have been familiar with cannot be defended as serving a greater moral purpose.

If Snowden doesn't even have THAT going for him.
 
2013-06-23 01:43:00 PM

Mrtraveler01: Has there been any positive reforms being proposed to scale this back or have we only gone so far as to say "OMG...GOVERNMENT IS SPYING ON US!!! LET'S PANIC!!!"

Because to be this looks like an opportunity being squandered by the tin-fol hat brigade in this country.


If you look at the posts in this thread, you'll see that they're too busy shiatting themselves with glee over how the government will do away with Snowden, and the rest are in the Michael Hastings thread, speculating on how the government "got" him.
 
2013-06-23 01:46:35 PM

Dwight_Yeast: Mrtraveler01: Has there been any positive reforms being proposed to scale this back or have we only gone so far as to say "OMG...GOVERNMENT IS SPYING ON US!!! LET'S PANIC!!!"

Because to be this looks like an opportunity being squandered by the tin-fol hat brigade in this country.

If you look at the posts in this thread, you'll see that they're too busy shiatting themselves with glee over how the government will do away with Snowden, and the rest are in the Michael Hastings thread, speculating on how the government "got" him.


I know. I've given up hope that we can actually be productive with issues like these and actually make some positive reforms to how the CIA/NSA/ETC does business thanks to paranoid morons like those.
 
2013-06-23 01:48:53 PM

Biological Ali: Actually, I should amend my previous statement somewhat - the one potentially positive thing for the US that's likely to emerge from this mess is the intelligence agencies tightening up and making sure that people like Snowden don't get anywhere near anything important from now on.


It's always great when a borderline fascist surveillance state exists without our explicit knowledge!

Staatssicherheit, indeed.
 
2013-06-23 01:49:06 PM

Biological Ali: Actually, I should amend my previous statement somewhat - the one potentially positive thing for the US that's likely to emerge from this mess is the intelligence agencies tightening up and making sure that people like Snowden don't get anywhere near anything important from now on.


The most interesting thing for the American public, and the Russian and Chinese governments, is that none of those three are the current major player in spying.

Sneaky old Britain

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world-co mm unications-nsa .
 
2013-06-23 01:51:30 PM

quatchi: Andromeda: quatchi: "Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...

Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with?  If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.

I'm thinking that he's thinking that the more publicity he attracts not just in the US but globally the larger his chances of survival increase and also that by doing it this way at the very least it keeps the story in heavy rotation in the notoriously fickle corporate media with it's "Squirrel? Where?!" cycles.

It's a story that he's basically given up all hope of a normal life for and it seems to be working so far

I could be wrong, obviously, this is all pure speculation and I'm half asleep and at cruising altitude.


NSA employee travel outside of the U.S., even if personal, has to be approved a minimum of thirty days in advance.
 
2013-06-23 01:51:45 PM

digistil: That the US govt has direct access to corp. servers like Google and Facebook, and that a warrant isn't needed to request private information on a person.


It has already been established that the warrant requests are never denied, which is the same thing as not needed a warrant.  And Google rolls over and does whatever the Chinese government asks it to do, why would it bother standing up to the US government?
 
2013-06-23 01:53:55 PM

Dwight_Yeast: Something that's been common knowledge for twenty years shows up on the nightly news, and half the population of this country start behaving like Grandma Mildred, certain that they live in a police state where the NSA is keeping track of whether their panties are clean or not.


If it was common knowledge, would it be news to half the population?
 
2013-06-23 01:55:44 PM
Apologists.  Apologists everywhere.

This has really diminished my opinion of liberals here.

More so.

And |I've always voted liberal, so, well, there's that.
 
2013-06-23 01:58:15 PM

relcec: OgreMagi: Dude!  You're undermining your entire stance!  If you go to North Korea I'm going to have to side with the government.  I don't want to side with the farking government!  So don't do that!

how do any personal circumstances, short of selling intelligence to u.s. enemies, undermine his stance? so what if he goes to a country that is actively adverse to the u.s. if that means he can maintain his freedom? hasn't he done enough for us? must he also be a martyr?
hell, the pentagon papers were a retrospective look at stuff that had gone on many year earlier and well after the abuses and lies had run their natural course.
they don't come close to this.
Snowden risked his life and liberty (and moreover a nice life making 200k and living with stripper in Hawaii as a 27 year old) when he had no legal, moral or professional responsibility to the citizens of the united states, but he still did so to uncover for us the raping of the u.s. constitution.
he's up there with sergeant york among the greatest heroes of the last century. actually it's doubtful there has ever been more heroic action taken by an American since the revolutionary war.


get off the crack
 
2013-06-23 02:00:44 PM

kpaxoid: quatchi: Andromeda: quatchi: "Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...

Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with?  If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.

I'm thinking that he's thinking that the more publicity he attracts not just in the US but globally the larger his chances of survival increase and also that by doing it this way at the very least it keeps the story in heavy rotation in the notoriously fickle corporate media with it's "Squirrel? Where?!" cycles.

It's a story that he's basically given up all hope of a normal life for and it seems to be working so far

I could be wrong, obviously, this is all pure speculation and I'm half asleep and at cruising altitude.

NSA Any security clearance holding employee travel outside of the U.S., even if personal, has to be approved a minimum of thirty days in advance.


FTFY
 
2013-06-23 02:03:44 PM

Slaxl: digistil: MurphyMurphy: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Anyone that ever tried to make a difference.

I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

I sorta stopped following it, so I missed that, and I can't google at the moment because I'm wearing a towel. What intel did he give to the Chinese military, and what sources of intel did he give up?


Why would that stop you? Do you Google w/ your peener or something?
 
2013-06-23 02:04:20 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Biological Ali: Actually, I should amend my previous statement somewhat - the one potentially positive thing for the US that's likely to emerge from this mess is the intelligence agencies tightening up and making sure that people like Snowden don't get anywhere near anything important from now on.

That way they can tap us without us knowing.

Awesome!


you heard the man, the most dangerous part of this all is greenwalds campaign of misinformation to slander his beloved president.
its certainly not a creeping police and surveillance state attached to a political class that is bent on abolishing the 4th amendment by secret administrative process that even most members of congress had no idea about.
but it kept you safe!

/what is more dangerous?

a handful of pissed off cave dwellers from the dark ages studying a book written by another cave dweller that has been dead for 1300 years;

or the fact these farklib nutjobs are trying to convince every citizen that the notion that massive, unpaticularized, and indiscriminate data sweeps of communication by hundreds of millions of americans (that have never in the history of FISA court been turned down btw) can be retained and queried (if it contains any evidence of criminality) can somehow be squared with the constitutional demand that we be personally secure from GOVERNMENT searches unless a warrant is issued by a magistrate that is based on specific evidence of a particularized nature that crime is afoot and where evidence of it is to be found?
 
2013-06-23 02:06:41 PM

sendtodave: Dwight_Yeast: Something that's been common knowledge for twenty years shows up on the nightly news, and half the population of this country start behaving like Grandma Mildred, certain that they live in a police state where the NSA is keeping track of whether their panties are clean or not.

If it was common knowledge, would it be news to half the population?


Probably because they're too busy watching reality TV than paying attention to what's actually going on in the world.

As I pointed out before, Frontline has produced several excellent documentaries on what the NSA has been up over the last decade or so, all of which can be viewed online for free.

I'm reminded of Dorothy Parker's use of the word "horticulture": You can lead a whore to culture,but you can't make her think.  Likewise, you can tell the American people that the government is monitoring their phone calls and internet usage, but until it interrupts Dancing with the Stars, it's not actually news.
 
2013-06-23 02:07:03 PM

letrole: Chelsea Clinton Is Carrot Tops Lost Twin:
redacted list of terms that mark the poster as a clueless loon

What are you bufoons trying to accomplish with this shiat? Are you going to crash the system? Tie up human resources with a decoy post that some analyst will evidently have to go read since it contains magic words? Prove the 31337 config of your seven proxies?


Phhhhht. We're gonna hack the Gibson, baby. Fark yeah!
 
2013-06-23 02:09:59 PM

relcec: or the fact these farklib nutjobs are trying to convince every citizen that the notion that massive, unpaticularized, and indiscriminate data sweeps of communication by hundreds of millions of americans (that have never in the history of FISA court been turned down btw) can be retained and queried (if it contains any evidence of criminality) can somehow be squared with the constitutional demand that we be personally secure from GOVERNMENT searches unless a warrant is issued by a magistrate that is based on specific evidence of a particularized nature that crime is afoot and where evidence of it is to be found?


I'm a lib.  I am on fark.

I cannot see any excuse for what the government is doing in the name of security.  My bias, actually, says that this would make sense if it happened under Bush, that it is happening now shakes my faith in Democrats holding the moral high ground.

I mean, I'll probably still vote for them due to social wedge issues.   But that's the only difference I'm seeing at this point.
 
2013-06-23 02:10:52 PM
who is actually more dangerous to americans?
the biological alli's of the world who spread their nonesense for hours each and every day of the year?
or Ayman al-Zawahiri?
 
2013-06-23 02:12:03 PM

Dwight_Yeast: I'm reminded of Dorothy Parker's use of the word "horticulture": You can lead a whore to culture,but you can't make her think. Likewise, you can tell the American people that the government is monitoring their phone calls and internet usage, but until it interrupts Dancing with the Stars, it's not actually news.


But isn't it a good thing that it is new now?

That they are paying attention, and are a bit upset over it?

Is  the problem that they are finally upset over it when it is politically inconvenient?
 
2013-06-23 02:12:20 PM

gfid: Brian_of_Nazareth: Not to try to push this discussion in a different direction(let's face it, the shiat-tossing on both sides is entertaining), but there's one question nobody seems to have asked yet.  All this data the government is pulling that according to some represents a massive intrusion into personal privacy is coming from corporate servers.  So, apparently you're all fine with Google, AT&T, Verizon, etc having and using this data with oversight only from shareholders, yet it's full-on panic mode when the government gets its hands on this data even though there is, at least ostensibly, some restraint and oversight.  Google watching your email for economic advantage?  All good.  NSA watching your emails because some people are afraid of terrorists?  INVASION OF PRIVACY!111!

We now return you to the regularly scheduled Sunday morning babble-fest.

Cheers.

Actually, I don't think we're all fine with how private businesses use our information.  I've seen a few people praise it because they get ads they want to see instead of random crap that they may or may not be interested in but I am bothered by it.

I was bothered when I found out my employer was selling names of customers 25 years ago.  They viewed it as revenue and since people were willing to buy names and addresses for ~20 cents each and they had thousands of customers every year I can't really blame them for taking advantage of that opportunity but I didn't like what was happening.

I do feel it's worse when the government does it though.  If law enforcement suspects me of a crime they can get a warrant.  Until they get a warrant, they should stay the hell out of my private life though.


You're right, I probably shouldn't have generalised to everybody.  That said, I think the risk is larger from the corporations than the government.  I have no doubt that any evidence of a crime you may have committed that is discovered by the NSA (or any other member of the Alphabet Soup Club) would not be shared with law enforcement, and if it was any half-assed lawyer should be able to get it excluded.  In other words, an American being arrested (other than for something terrorism related, and even then it's a stretch) because of something the NSA found as a result of this data collection is about as likely as Obama coming to take away your guns.

The corporations that collect this data have almost no meaningful oversight, since any consequences for being caught misusing the data are far outweighed by the financial advantages.  Google's on-going spat with the UK because of privacy issues related to StreetView data collection being a good example.  Of course, we should also remember that the government is still much better at protecting your information than corporations (based on the personal observation that we hear about data leaks from corporations much more frequently than we hear about government leaks).

I guess my point was that it seems at best myopic to be screaming about the government in this issue without at least considering the role the corporations involved are playing.

Cheers.
 
2013-06-23 02:13:29 PM

Satanic_Hamster: yagottabefarkinkiddinme: I can't even have phone sex with my wife without a NSA 3-way. Fark that noise.

Yes.  You're SO interesting that the NSA is listening to your phone conversations.




I've been hearing that argument for a long time.
 
2013-06-23 02:13:47 PM

WorldCitizen: sprgrss


We don't have to play the "what might've happened" game.  We know what happened.  There was no hot war between the Soviets and the United States.  Terrorists have attacked and will continue to attack.  That's why terrorism is a real existential threat.
 
2013-06-23 02:14:24 PM

sendtodave: relcec: or the fact these farklib nutjobs are trying to convince every citizen that the notion that massive, unpaticularized, and indiscriminate data sweeps of communication by hundreds of millions of americans (that have never in the history of FISA court been turned down btw) can be retained and queried (if it contains any evidence of criminality) can somehow be squared with the constitutional demand that we be personally secure from GOVERNMENT searches unless a warrant is issued by a magistrate that is based on specific evidence of a particularized nature that crime is afoot and where evidence of it is to be found?

I'm a lib.  I am on fark.

I cannot see any excuse for what the government is doing in the name of security.  My bias, actually, says that this would make sense if it happened under Bush, that it is happening now shakes my faith in Democrats holding the moral high ground.

I mean, I'll probably still vote for them due to social wedge issues.   But that's the only difference I'm seeing at this point.


Same.

I'm pretty disheartened by both sides and have given up hope that things will change for the better in this regard.
 
2013-06-23 02:15:53 PM

sendtodave: Dwight_Yeast: I'm reminded of Dorothy Parker's use of the word "horticulture": You can lead a whore to culture,but you can't make her think. Likewise, you can tell the American people that the government is monitoring their phone calls and internet usage, but until it interrupts Dancing with the Stars, it's not actually news.

But isn't it a good thing that it is new now?

That they are paying attention, and are a bit upset over it?

Is  the problem that they are finally upset over it when it is politically inconvenient?


I think the problem is that nothing is being done to push any reforms concerning the actions of the NSA.

I mean it's fine to get people outraged about this but if nothing is going to be done to change what is going on, then this is all just a waste of time.
 
2013-06-23 02:16:37 PM

sendtodave: I cannot see any excuse for what the government is doing in the name of security. My bias, actually, says that this would make sense if it happened under Bush, that it is happening now shakes my faith in Democrats holding the moral high ground.

I mean, I'll probably still vote for them due to social wedge issues. But that's the only difference I'm seeing at this point.


As someone said in the earlier threads - with Bush the controversy was over warrantless wiretaps, while under Obama the "controversy" is over warrantful non-wiretaps. There's plenty of difference even on this issue if you're curious enough to look for it.
 
2013-06-23 02:18:31 PM

Mrtraveler01: sendtodave: Dwight_Yeast: I'm reminded of Dorothy Parker's use of the word "horticulture": You can lead a whore to culture,but you can't make her think. Likewise, you can tell the American people that the government is monitoring their phone calls and internet usage, but until it interrupts Dancing with the Stars, it's not actually news.

But isn't it a good thing that it is new now?

That they are paying attention, and are a bit upset over it?

Is  the problem that they are finally upset over it when it is politically inconvenient?

I think the problem is that nothing is being done to push any reforms concerning the actions of the NSA.

I mean it's fine to get people outraged about this but if nothing is going to be done to change what is going on, then this is all just a waste of time.


But "our guys" are in charge!  And "our guys" are civil libertarians, at least compared to the GOP.

So, why are "our guys" doing nothing to Change this?  I still have some Hope!

If this is a waste of time, it is because we wasted our votes.
 
2013-06-23 02:19:40 PM

StoPPeRmobile: I've been hearing that argument for a long time.


Well, the claims that Obama is personally listening in to random phone calls is usually fairly retarded and unlikely.  Not defending the programs, but just for a sheer logistics standpoint, the odds of any persons phone call being listened in to, ever, are about the same as me getting hit by a falling satellite while getting a blowjob from Scarlett Johansson, Natalie Portman, Jessica Alba, and Emma Watson.
 
2013-06-23 02:19:52 PM

sendtodave: So, why are "our guys" doing nothing to Change this? I still have some Hope!


Your guess is as good as mine.
 
2013-06-23 02:20:19 PM

gfid: justoneznot: Good job US Government. You've gone so hard after him that the only logical place for him to go is a place we're most at odds with. And I'm sure they'll want to know everything he knows, and since the US government has been so hostile to him, he likely has lost any hesitation he might have had about giving up secret information to them.

Just how hard has the US been going after him?

Whether or not you think he's a hero, he's clearly broken the law.  Do you really think the US is not going to at least make an attempt to arrest him?

It sounds like the US has gone to such great lengths as to issue an arrest warrant and request extradition.   Yeah, that's really going "so hard after him", isn't it?

The only way the US could go less hard after him is to ignore him completely.  Let us know when they send Seal Team 6 to wherever his final country of refuge is.


With a significant part of the country - a significant VOTING part of the country - thinking that Snowden is a hero, do you
honestly think for even a microsecond that the U.S. gov't would publicly take any aggressive action against him? Hell no.
That's all going to be done behind the scenes. Then one day, buried on the back page will be a two inch column about
how Snowden fell in with Ecuadorian drug runners and was arrested after being caught using kittens and puppies as
mules.

Ok, so maybe not that last part, but my point is that when the U.S. gov't does make their final move against him, it won't
even be a blip on the public's radar.
 
2013-06-23 02:20:27 PM
static.tvtome.com
img408.imageshack.us
 
2013-06-23 02:21:18 PM

Mrtraveler01: sendtodave: So, why are "our guys" doing nothing to Change this? I still have some Hope!

Your guess is as good as mine.


Apparently because it's a non-issue.  Overzealous contractor,
 
2013-06-23 02:24:16 PM

sprgrss: WorldCitizen: sprgrss

We don't have to play the "what might've happened" game.  We know what happened.  There was no hot war between the Soviets and the United States.  Terrorists have attacked and will continue to attack.  That's why terrorism is a real existential threat.


Terrorism is not a threat to the existence of the United States.
 
2013-06-23 02:29:03 PM

digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?


What're you talking about? I keep seeing people call him a hero/patriot.
 
2013-06-23 02:30:00 PM

sendtodave: But isn't it a good thing that it is new now?


A day late and a dollar short. I don't have much sympathy for the American public, as the time to have address this was 13 years ago, not today.

Also, as has been pointed out, no one on any side is proposing any reforms or changes to what the NSA is doing. At the very least, we could stop pulling classified infomation into the hand of contract employees!

sendtodave: But "our guys" are in charge! And "our guys" are civil libertarians, at least compared to the GOP.


Obama is politically to the RIght of Richard Nixon.
 
2013-06-23 02:31:48 PM

sprgrss: WorldCitizen: sprgrss

We don't have to play the "what might've happened" game.  We know what happened.  There was no hot war between the Soviets and the United States.  Terrorists have attacked and will continue to attack.  That's why terrorism is a real existential threat.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but the fear of, and over-reaction to, terrorism are about as close as the US gets to an existential threat right now.  Terrorism itself, not so much.

Cheers.
 
2013-06-23 02:32:34 PM

Dwight_Yeast: sendtodave: But isn't it a good thing that it is new now?

A day late and a dollar short. I don't have much sympathy for the American public, as the time to have address this was 13 years ago, not today.

Also, as has been pointed out, no one on any side is proposing any reforms or changes to what the NSA is doing. At the very least, we could stop pulling classified infomation into the hand of contract employees!

sendtodave: But "our guys" are in charge! And "our guys" are civil libertarians, at least compared to the GOP.

Obama is politically to the RIght of Richard Nixon.


Well, "can't win, don't try" is a valid political stance.

Beats "Can't try, my team is in office."
 
2013-06-23 02:34:46 PM

BitwiseShift: He reminds me of a younger, nerdier Oliver North.

If only Reagan were here, he'd know what to do.


Nah. He'd go before Congress and tell them that he can't recall or remember.
 
2013-06-23 02:35:56 PM
Snowden sure went from "probably a misguided idealist" to "straight up traitor" pretty quick.
 
2013-06-23 02:37:55 PM

Aldon: Snowden sure went from "probably a misguided idealist" to "straight up traitor" pretty quick.


I keep seeing people calling him a hero. I've been saying "traitor" since minute one, and I'm getting tired of the shear stupidity of the people around me.
 
2013-06-23 02:40:35 PM

Biological Ali: The serious media outlets have more or less let it go and are just focusing on stories about Snowden himself, but even that's just a pointless distraction; the sooner his little story gets resolved, the better.


Are these the same "serious media outlets" who helped shrub lie us into a war with Iraq? Yeah, I totally trust their opinion on authoritarian issues.

Personally, I think more attention on this issue is good for the country. Regardless of the messenger.
 
2013-06-23 02:41:17 PM

WorldCitizen: Terrorism is not a threat to the existence of the United States.


Politicians wetting their pants over terrorism is a different matter, of course.
 
2013-06-23 02:44:46 PM
Anyone trying to make sense of the guy's actions needs to always look at ALL of the following:
1. The Patriot Act in all of its forms
2. Case history of SCOTUS and on the Federal level
3. The telecom companies specific terms as far as client privacy protection goes.

Remember that you are clients of companies knowingly aware of the government's security and surveillance measures and that these companies comply rather than take it to the courts or SCOTUS because "give us your money" and nothing's unconstitutional unless SCOTUS rules it so.

All this posturing about the Constitution and Bill of Rights and ignorance of case history and laws in effect is just stupid.
One has to understand the systen before they can effectively change it.

Snowden is either playing you all for his own elevaion (including Messiah or martyr conplex), or being played himself. If he really wanted to crack the whip, Wikileaks could've saved him a lot of trouble and money. The fact he ended up on TV news right away made me question his motives fron day one. The daily attention has only confirned that.
Most dangerous attention whore ever.
 
2013-06-23 02:46:59 PM

AndreMA: WorldCitizen: Terrorism is not a threat to the existence of the United States.

Politicians wetting their pants over terrorism is a different matter, of course.


Well, and the fearful Americans who vote in politicians who wet their pants in fear (or at least get their votes by encouraging fear withing voters).
 
2013-06-23 02:47:13 PM

Unhip1: Snowden is either playing you all for his own elevaion (including Messiah or martyr conplex), or being played himself. If he really wanted to crack the whip, Wikileaks could've saved him a lot of trouble and money. The fact he ended up on TV news right away made me question his motives fron day one. The daily attention has only confirned that.
Most dangerous attention whore ever.


I dunno, Patrick Henry with his "Give me liberty or give me death" so let's cast off our government and put me in charge might be a contender.

He's considered a hero, too.
 
2013-06-23 02:48:01 PM

sendtodave: Well, "can't win, don't try" is a valid political stance.


More like: saw this coming, fought against it, lost, and therefore no longer care.  The American people have exactly the government they deserve, as they're always willing to rally around what they want to hear, no matter how little relationship it has to reality.

And all I see from those who have just found out about this and are upset is a bunch of chickrens running round, sans heads.

Question: what do you think we should actually do at this point to "fix" things, in your eyes?
 
2013-06-23 02:51:13 PM
He be knocking on heavens door
 
2013-06-23 02:52:31 PM

letrole: All this privacy fetish rubbish is certainly amusing.

If you leave your front door, walk down the street, get a taxi, so on and so forth, and this chain of events is recorded on CCTV tapes for playback-- it's simply not an invasion of your privacy.

If you communicate on an infrastructure that you neither built, own, nor maintain, then anything you transmit can likewise be stored -- and subject to the same analysis.

Expectations of privacy are very much in line with Rights.

You have the right to do whatever you can conceive and achieve solely through your own efforts. But, if someone is required or compelled or obligated to provide assistance, then that thing you wish to do is not a right. It is rather a *privilege*.

So you do have a right to privacy in a locked room that you actually own, with windows drawn and guests of your own choosing. But not on the telephone or interweb. For those sorts of communications, administrators and technicians and system owners must cooperate with you so that you can achieve what you wish to do. Again, it's a privilege that comes with paying a phone bill.


You are a boot licking fool. It is not about 'privacy', it is about limitations on the governments ability to search and seize you or your possessions or papers. It's about due process. Your idiotic formulation of rights vs privileges is meaningless. I don't need the gov't to help me get 'privacy', I need the gov't to farking follow the laws we have established.
 
2013-06-23 02:53:15 PM

Serious Post on Serious Thread: letrole: All this privacy fetish rubbish is certainly amusing.

If you leave your front door, walk down the street, get a taxi, so on and so forth, and this chain of events is recorded on CCTV tapes for playback-- it's simply not an invasion of your privacy.

If you communicate on an infrastructure that you neither built, own, nor maintain, then anything you transmit can likewise be stored -- and subject to the same analysis.

Expectations of privacy are very much in line with Rights.

You have the right to do whatever you can conceive and achieve solely through your own efforts. But, if someone is required or compelled or obligated to provide assistance, then that thing you wish to do is not a right. It is rather a *privilege*.

So you do have a right to privacy in a locked room that you actually own, with windows drawn and guests of your own choosing. But not on the telephone or interweb. For those sorts of communications, administrators and technicians and system owners must cooperate with you so that you can achieve what you wish to do. Again, it's a privilege that comes with paying a phone bill.

You are a boot licking fool. It is not about 'privacy', it is about limitations on the governments ability to search and seize you or your possessions or papers. It's about due process. Your idiotic formulation of rights vs privileges is meaningless. I don't need the gov't to help me get 'privacy', I need the gov't to farking follow the laws we have established.


Oh, just saw your user name. Nevermind.
 
2013-06-23 02:55:59 PM

WorldCitizen: AndreMA: WorldCitizen: Terrorism is not a threat to the existence of the United States.

Politicians wetting their pants over terrorism is a different matter, of course.

Well, and the fearful Americans who vote in politicians who wet their pants in fear (or at least get their votes by encouraging fear withing voters).


True, although both major parties (and the candidates they put forth, with rare exceptions) are complicit and most people have been convinced that voting for a third party is a "waste" of their vote.
 
2013-06-23 02:56:53 PM

Dwight_Yeast: More like: saw this coming, fought against it, lost, and therefore no longer care. The American people have exactly the government they deserve, as they're always willing to rally around what they want to hear, no matter how little relationship it has to reality.


Hm.  So you accept that it is the government that you deserve, as well?

Or are you just smugly superior?

Dwight_Yeast: Question: what do you think we should actually do at this point to "fix" things, in your eyes?


What should we, as people, do?  fark if I know.  I don't think that the people have power anymore.  So, I don't go with this "we ge t what we deserve" line, because I don't believe in a Just World.

We get what we get.  Kinda like the weather.

For tens of thousands of years, that's how politics has worked.

i live in China.  they have no power to change the government.  And neither do we.

If you don't believe that, I urge you to get riled up and try to change things.  If you realize that we're all subjects of authoritarians now, I invite you to have a beer.  We can play xbox or something.
 
2013-06-23 02:58:17 PM

Serious Post on Serious Thread: You are a boot licking fool. It is not about 'privacy', it is about limitations on the governments ability to search and seize you or your possessions or papers. It's about due process. Your idiotic formulation of rights vs privileges is meaningless. I don't need the gov't to help me get 'privacy', I need the gov't to farking follow the laws we have established.


They are. The Patriot Act gives them the power do do exactly what they're doing, and it protects the telecoms from any liability.
 
2013-06-23 03:01:36 PM

sendtodave: What should we, as people, do? fark if I know. I don't think that the people have power anymore. So, I don't go with this "we ge t what we deserve" line, because I don't believe in a Just World.


We don't have it because we've happily given it up.

sendtodave: i live in China. they have no power to change the government. And neither do we.


That's not true at all.

sendtodave: If you don't believe that, I urge you to get riled up and try to change things.


I'm too old for that shiat. I burned out on trying to make a difference a decade ago.  Now I pick my battles and keep them small.  Yes, I may be part of the problem, but this way I'm not as angry as I was as a younger man.
 
2013-06-23 03:02:02 PM

Lsherm: I hope they kill him.  He's not a hero, he's a narcissist with an overinflated sense of self-worth who has deluded himself into thinking he's done something good.  He hasn't.  He's just been giving away US intelligence secrets because he's too stupid to do anything else.

When he dies, and it will be soon, I hope it is painful.


Everything you said above is raw  pejorative idle speculation and conjecture, except for the fact he released info. You don't like the guy based on a couple interviews and speculation and gut feeling (apparently based mainly on his choice of glasses, haircut, facial hair stylings and tone of voice)? Fine. It matters not even in the least. I'm pretty sure he didn't ask you or anyone else to like him or be his besty. It's not about him except in the abstract of using him as a nominal icon for possible punishment, either legal or, in your case,cultural, for not just not shutting up being a good little slave. Nothing needs to be forgiven. Nothing needs to be justified to you. Except the farking disgusting gov't programs he (re)-brought to light.

Now there are some boots that need licking somewhere, go do what you do best.
 
2013-06-23 03:04:39 PM

Dwight_Yeast: They are. The Patriot Act gives them the power do do exactly what they're doing, and it protects the telecoms from any liability.


I've always wondered why the telecom immunity wasn't successfully challenged as an ex post facto law, which I always thought was forbidden.
 
2013-06-23 03:05:40 PM

Dwight_Yeast: Serious Post on Serious Thread: You are a boot licking fool. It is not about 'privacy', it is about limitations on the governments ability to search and seize you or your possessions or papers. It's about due process. Your idiotic formulation of rights vs privileges is meaningless. I don't need the gov't to help me get 'privacy', I need the gov't to farking follow the laws we have established.

They are. The Patriot Act gives them the power do do exactly what they're doing, and it protects the telecoms from any liability.


The PATRIOT Act authorizes the collection of the contents of all US electronic communications in giant data centers in Colorado and Utah that can then be retroactively searched based on alleged non-terror related crimes committed at a later date?

Can you provide that section number please?
 
2013-06-23 03:05:42 PM

Dwight_Yeast: sendtodave: i live in China. they have no power to change the government. And neither do we.

That's not true at all.

sendtodave: If you don't believe that, I urge you to get riled up and try to change things.

I'm too old for that shiat. I burned out on trying to make a difference a decade ago. Now I pick my battles and keep them small. Yes, I may be part of the problem, but this way I'm not as angry as I was as a younger man.


Kinda confused by that.  Is it not true that we cannot change our government (although you gave up on trying in any big way,) or not true that they cannot change theirs?
 
2013-06-23 03:13:02 PM

Satanic_Hamster: StoPPeRmobile: I've been hearing that argument for a long time.

Well, the claims that Obama is personally listening in to random phone calls is usually fairly retarded and unlikely.  Not defending the programs, but just for a sheer logistics standpoint, the odds of any persons phone call being listened in to, ever, are about the same as me getting hit by a falling satellite while getting a blowjob from Scarlett Johansson, Natalie Portman, Jessica Alba, and Emma Watson.




Then why bother with searching?
 
2013-06-23 03:16:15 PM
I'm still confused as to why the US wants to prosecute Snowden for spreading lies.
 
2013-06-23 03:31:48 PM

Biological Ali: The serious media outlets have more or less let it go and are just focusing on stories about Snowden himself, but even that's just a pointless distraction; the sooner his little story gets resolved, the better.


The serious media outlets have been aggressively threatened with criminal prosecution if they re-disclose the contents of the purported DOJ memorandum and FISA court order, re: minimization procedures on data-collections involving US persons.  That's why they are reporting on things like where Snowden may be going instead.  He's not the real story, the memo/order is.

The information in the memo is not mere confirmation of what was known publicly before. The nightmare scenarios, such as the Twatwaffle campaign (would-be politician can't oppose incumbent because incumbent's wife or best friend has access), or to get revenge on an ex, or to satisfy curiosity about a celebrity, will happen because people are flawed, sometimes they make bad decisions, knowledge is power, total knowledge is absolute power and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

A federal court approved it.  Normally, when a judge or judges acting in their official capacity make a wrong decision, it can be appealed to a higher court, and up to the Supreme Court if they decide to review it.  In theory, it is impossible to set up a federal court in the US without its decisions being subject to review by the Supreme Court.  In practice, however, as far as is publicly known the decisions of the FISA court have not been subject to review; it has been tried but proved impossible to challenge the constitutionality of the decisions of the FISA court because of the state secrets privilege.  No plaintiff, no evidence, no case.  The rule of law cannot operate under a cloak of secrecy.  It is possible that by enabling the publication of the  memo, Snowden has done something that will get the issue of the constitutionality of the general warrants to the Supreme Court.  The case wouldn't be decided until years in the future, long after all the players have left office, but still.  Hero.
 
2013-06-23 03:55:05 PM

AndreMA: Also careful that his flights don't have a chance of passing through airspace (US or international) controlled by US ATC.


SU 150, the SVO-HAV flight, is definitely passing through US airspace today.

For some time now, the US has to receive and approve the passenger list of overflights even if the flight does not stop in the US, so the questions become:

1 - Will SU fly a different route tomorrow to avoid US airspace, perhaps a southerly routing using the Azores and Bermuda as alternates? Who is paying for it and ordering it?

2 - If SU did not alter its route, would the US approve an overflight with Snowden on board?

3 - If the flight were to enter US airspace with Snowden on board, would the US have the legal authority to detain him, and how would it be done?

The only related thing I can find with a quick Google is a flight in May 2010 that was refused entry to US airspace, landed at Montreal, had the "problem" passenger arrested by our Canadian friends, then continued on to Mexico City.
 
2013-06-23 04:01:35 PM

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: I'm still confused as to why the US wants to prosecute Snowden for spreading lies.


"He doesn't know what he's talking about, we don't do that at all....but we need to hunt him down for leaking information." They keep trying to have it both ways. They'd like to discredit him and the information he leaked, but by going after him so hard they're showing that what he has leaked is true.

They then try to put him down by saying he dropped out of highschool, but in doing so, they're dissing themselves for hiring someone that dropped out of high school to manage secret intelligence information. Who's more stupid in that equation, the dropout taking the 6 figure job or the government that outsources intelligence to dropouts?
 
2013-06-23 04:15:45 PM

digitalrain: gfid: justoneznot: Good job US Government. You've gone so hard after him that the only logical place for him to go is a place we're most at odds with. And I'm sure they'll want to know everything he knows, and since the US government has been so hostile to him, he likely has lost any hesitation he might have had about giving up secret information to them.

Just how hard has the US been going after him?

Whether or not you think he's a hero, he's clearly broken the law.  Do you really think the US is not going to at least make an attempt to arrest him?

It sounds like the US has gone to such great lengths as to issue an arrest warrant and request extradition.   Yeah, that's really going "so hard after him", isn't it?

The only way the US could go less hard after him is to ignore him completely.  Let us know when they send Seal Team 6 to wherever his final country of refuge is.

With a significant part of the country - a significant VOTING part of the country - thinking that Snowden is a hero, do you
honestly think for even a microsecond that the U.S. gov't would publicly take any aggressive action against him? Hell no.
That's all going to be done behind the scenes. Then one day, buried on the back page will be a two inch column about
how Snowden fell in with Ecuadorian drug runners and was arrested after being caught using kittens and puppies as
mules.

Ok, so maybe not that last part, but my point is that when the U.S. gov't does make their final move against him, it won't
even be a blip on the public's radar.


Drat, I just misclicked and erased a well written reply, but I'll try to recreate my main points.

1:  Snowden has blown his load.  He has nothing else to reveal.  The US gov't. still wants to arrest him but there's nothing to be gained by killing him.  Even if he dies in an actual accident, people will think the worst.

2:  Sysadmins have access to a lot of information.  I've been one myself and I could look at everyone's e-mails and see what websites people visited.  I probably could have blackmailed executives with some of the information I just ran across during the normal course of my job.  I wasn't even looking for dirt.  I stumbled across it.  But I didn't act on it.    Granted, I didn't work for the government and it wasn't a matter of national security and it's not really my business who's hiring hookers so I knew just to let it go.

3.  I really wonder if Snowden has thought his cunning plan through.  It doesn't seem that he has.  First he hides out in Hong Kong and now he's en route to Venezuela via Moscow and Cuba - who the hell is his travel agent, anyway?  And what's he going to do now?  He can't return to the US without facing arrest.  He does't appear to have any really valuable job skills.  He's stuck.

It sort of makes me wonder about Assange.  He must be sick of hanging out in an embassy in London.  I would have expected him to make a break for it by now, but I guess he assumes British agents are constantly watching and waiting for him to set foot outside the embassy.  I bet he's thinking "We're going to need a bigger diplomatic pouch".

Snowden will eventually fade into obscurity.  Maybe he'll write a book or something, but he won't be assassinated and he won't ever return to the US.  The NSA will keep increasing their surveillance on US citizens and of course foreigners as well and we'll all forget about it and elect some other asshole to the White House in 2016 and it won't matter if it's a Democrat or Republican because the NSA will keep spying on us.
 
2013-06-23 04:35:45 PM

4tehsnowflakes: The serious media outlets have been aggressively threatened with criminal prosecution


Really?
 
2013-06-23 04:37:46 PM

andrewagill: lokis_mentor: RT/ITASS has him going to Venezuela ultimately after stop in Cuba.

Because Venezuela has no extradition with the United States.


WRONG AGAIN!

http://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-usa-ecu.pdf ">http://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-usa-ecu.p df

http://internationalextraditionblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/ecuad o r.pdf">http://internationalextraditionblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/0 3/ecuado r.pdf
 
2013-06-23 04:48:34 PM

CowboyUpCowgirlDown: andrewagill: lokis_mentor: RT/ITASS has him going to Venezuela ultimately after stop in Cuba.

Because Venezuela has no extradition with the United States.

WRONG AGAIN!

http://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-usa-ecu.pdf ">http://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-usa-ecu.p df

http://internationalextraditionblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/ecuad o r.pdf">http://internationalextraditionblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/0 3/ecuado r.pdf


You understand Ecuador and Venezuela are different countries, right?
 
2013-06-23 04:53:21 PM

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: I'm still confused as to why the US wants to prosecute Snowden for spreading lies.


He did release some Top Secret documents.  They don't really support his claims, but they're still TS.
 
2013-06-23 05:35:13 PM

Biological Ali: sendtodave: I cannot see any excuse for what the government is doing in the name of security. My bias, actually, says that this would make sense if it happened under Bush, that it is happening now shakes my faith in Democrats holding the moral high ground.

I mean, I'll probably still vote for them due to social wedge issues. But that's the only difference I'm seeing at this point.

As someone said in the earlier threads - with Bush the controversy was over warrantless wiretaps, while under Obama the "controversy" is over warrantful non-wiretaps. There's plenty of difference even on this issue if you're curious enough to look for it.



they are casting a dragnet across anything and everything, and then have given themselves permission to keep and study all those *inadvertent* communications of Americans they come across (say when querying google for everything record they have for the past 3 months  -fark, who would have thought americans used google?) that can be described as evidence of criminality or even information about a threat of harm or property. And this is the farking Army doing it.

/the issue with bush was the trolling of our private communications (just like obama is doing) with noin contravention of the 4th amendment (just like obama is doing).
if you can't see the problem here you are so blinded by your partisanship you are a threat to everything good this country ever stood for.

The top secret rules that allow NSA to use US data without a warrantFisa court submissions show broad scope of procedures governing NSA's surveillance of Americans' communication
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/20/fisa-court-nsa-without-w ar rant
 
2013-06-23 05:55:18 PM
whats the big deal with the NSA and government anyways?  They collecting data on us right
if they ain't got nothing to hide than they shouldn't be worried

thats what the poster says doesn't it.
 
2013-06-23 06:10:58 PM
Surely even people who are wholly against the stuff he originally 'revealed', and who therefore initially thought of him as some kind of hero will have no sympathy for him now?

Since he began giving out details of your country's espionage against foreign nations, something that IS a legitimate and universal national security activity, he is simply a traitorous former intelligence operative.
 
2013-06-23 06:12:02 PM

relcec: Biological Ali: sendtodave: I cannot see any excuse for what the government is doing in the name of security. My bias, actually, says that this would make sense if it happened under Bush, that it is happening now shakes my faith in Democrats holding the moral high ground.

I mean, I'll probably still vote for them due to social wedge issues. But that's the only difference I'm seeing at this point.

As someone said in the earlier threads - with Bush the controversy was over warrantless wiretaps, while under Obama the "controversy" is over warrantful non-wiretaps. There's plenty of difference even on this issue if you're curious enough to look for it.


they are casting a dragnet across anything and everything, and then have given themselves permission to keep and study all those *inadvertent* communications of Americans they come across (say when querying google for everything record they have for the past 3 months  -fark, who would have thought americans used google?) that can be described as evidence of criminality or even information about a threat of harm or property. And this is the farking Army doing it.

/the issue with bush was the trolling of our private communications (just like obama is doing) with noin contravention of the 4th amendment (just like obama is doing).
if you can't see the problem here you are so blinded by your partisanship you are a threat to everything good this country ever stood for.

The top secret rules that allow NSA to use US data without a warrantFisa court submissions show broad scope of procedures governing NSA's surveillance of Americans' communication
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/20/fisa-court-nsa-without-w ar rant


everybody's a traitor really

if you're against the NSA you're a traitor because you're threatening the safety of the country

if you support the NSA you're a traitor because you're threatening the freedoms of the country
 
2013-06-23 06:16:56 PM

slykens1: AndreMA: Also careful that his flights don't have a chance of passing through airspace (US or international) controlled by US ATC.

SU 150, the SVO-HAV flight, is definitely passing through US airspace today.

For some time now, the US has to receive and approve the passenger list of overflights even if the flight does not stop in the US, so the questions become:

1 - Will SU fly a different route tomorrow to avoid US airspace, perhaps a southerly routing using the Azores and Bermuda as alternates? Who is paying for it and ordering it?

2 - If SU did not alter its route, would the US approve an overflight with Snowden on board?

3 - If the flight were to enter US airspace with Snowden on board, would the US have the legal authority to detain him, and how would it be done?

The only related thing I can find with a quick Google is a flight in May 2010 that was refused entry to US airspace, landed at Montreal, had the "problem" passenger arrested by our Canadian friends, then continued on to Mexico City.


I'm surprised at that routing. I'd have thought that the southern, mirror-image great circle route would've been preferred for such a route, especially given the minor additional radiation risk from high-altitude, high-lattitude flight. Emergency landing sites in southern Europe, North Africa and Brazil would seem to allay any potential safety concerns.

Interesting legal issues in any case, though.
 
2013-06-23 06:22:51 PM
As far as the nations to which he is traveling, he would be stupid to be doing it any other way if he wants to avoid being arrested and sent to the US. If he flew to US allied nations (which consist of most of the "freedom loving nations") then they would likely just arrest him upon landing, so doing so would make absolutely no sense no matter his motivations of originally leaking the scope of US surveillance.
 
2013-06-23 06:32:58 PM

Bloody William: WE'RE farkING OUTSOURCING INTELLIGENCE.


Yup.  This was the big takeaway for me.

Privitization.  The cause of and solution to all of Government's problems.
 
2013-06-23 06:35:29 PM
That China let him leave should tell you everything you need to know about Snowden's credibility, if he was really a valid source of info, he would've disappeared on the way to the airport, it would've been risk-free for the Chinese to do so as they would have blamed Obama and all the internet would have bought it like Fry buys phones. That they let him go shows that even the Chinese know he is full of shiat.
 
2013-06-23 07:00:19 PM
Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.
 
2013-06-23 07:01:40 PM

Skleenar: Bloody William: WE'RE farkING OUTSOURCING INTELLIGENCE.

Yup.  This was the big takeaway for me.

Privitization.  The cause of and solution to all of Government's problems.


I don't see how this is a problem with privatization.  The background check and security clearance are still done by the government.
 
2013-06-23 07:07:06 PM

Ricardo Klement: Skleenar: Bloody William: WE'RE farkING OUTSOURCING INTELLIGENCE.

Yup.  This was the big takeaway for me.

Privitization.  The cause of and solution to all of Government's problems.

I don't see how this is a problem with privatization.  The background check and security clearance are still done by the government.


Yeah but for something like this, there should be no outsourcing. Otherwise the accountability isn't there.
 
2013-06-23 07:15:56 PM

MisterEZ: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

What're you talking about? I keep seeing people call him a hero/patriot.



It doesn't matter what you call him. As Obama said "you cannot run faster than a bullet"...

... come to think of it, it was either Obama or Idi Amin. I get them mixed up all the time... I guess you should Google it if you really care...
 
2013-06-23 07:22:06 PM

mikemil828: That China let him leave should tell you everything you need to know about Snowden's credibility, if he was really a valid source of info, he would've disappeared on the way to the airport, it would've been risk-free for the Chinese to do so as they would have blamed Obama and all the internet would have bought it like Fry buys phones. That they let him go shows that even the Chinese know he is full of shiat.


But he wasn't in mainland China, he was in Hong Kong. The PRC has their own reasons for not wanting to appear to openly violate the rule of law in Hong Kong. They don't want to stir up too much trouble for themselves there, and for Taiwan, they have to show that, "hey, if you come join the party like Hong Kong, we'll leave you alone internally, we promise!".  Beijing must tread carefully in Hong Kong, and their own internal politics comes before some US issue.
 
2013-06-23 07:25:10 PM

Ricardo Klement: Skleenar: Bloody William: WE'RE farkING OUTSOURCING INTELLIGENCE.

Yup.  This was the big takeaway for me.

Privitization.  The cause of and solution to all of Government's problems.

I don't see how this is a problem with privatization.  The background check and security clearance are still done by the government.


Well, if by "this" you mean Snowden's releases, then I agree "this" isn't necessarily a problem with privatization.  However, there are plenty other problems with private, for profit, entities being entrusted with the surveillance powers of the NSA.
 
2013-06-23 07:30:37 PM

whidbey: Ricardo Klement: Skleenar: Bloody William: WE'RE farkING OUTSOURCING INTELLIGENCE.

Yup.  This was the big takeaway for me.

Privitization.  The cause of and solution to all of Government's problems.

I don't see how this is a problem with privatization.  The background check and security clearance are still done by the government.

Yeah but for something like this, there should be no outsourcing. Otherwise the accountability isn't there.


Yeah it is - the government is never far from the process.  They do regular security audits and they're not easy.
 
2013-06-23 07:32:04 PM

Skleenar: Ricardo Klement: Skleenar: Bloody William: WE'RE farkING OUTSOURCING INTELLIGENCE.

Yup.  This was the big takeaway for me.

Privitization.  The cause of and solution to all of Government's problems.

I don't see how this is a problem with privatization.  The background check and security clearance are still done by the government.

Well, if by "this" you mean Snowden's releases, then I agree "this" isn't necessarily a problem with privatization.  However, there are plenty other problems with private, for profit, entities being entrusted with the surveillance powers of the NSA.


Remember: he worked for Booze at an NSA facility, not a Booze facility.  The private for-profit entities aren't entrusted with independent surveillance powers.
 
2013-06-23 07:34:00 PM

Ricardo Klement: Yeah it is - the government is never far from the process.


"Never far" is a relative term.

They do regular security audits and they're not easy.

Policing a contractor, not itself. There should be NO contracting when it comes to military matters. That's the big problem we're having.
 
2013-06-23 07:52:20 PM

letrole: All this privacy fetish rubbish is certainly amusing.

If you leave your front door, walk down the street, get a taxi, so on and so forth, and this chain of events is recorded on CCTV tapes for playback-- it's simply not an invasion of your privacy.

If you communicate on an infrastructure that you neither built, own, nor maintain, then anything you transmit can likewise be stored -- and subject to the same analysis.

Expectations of privacy are very much in line with Rights.

You have the right to do whatever you can conceive and achieve solely through your own efforts. But, if someone is required or compelled or obligated to provide assistance, then that thing you wish to do is not a right. It is rather a *privilege*.

So you do have a right to privacy in a locked room that you actually own, with windows drawn and guests of your own choosing. But not on the telephone or interweb. For those sorts of communications, administrators and technicians and system owners must cooperate with you so that you can achieve what you wish to do. Again, it's a privilege that comes with paying a phone bill.


The biggest problem I have with your opinion is that the surveillance isnt equal opportunity.  I dont necessarily disagree with your expectation of privacy reasoning.  But when network administrators are compelled to clandestinely comply with authorities for surveillance it does purposefully create a false sense of privacy.  That is deception and unequal use as opposed to your CCTV or social media examples.

The issue goes beyond expectation of privacy and into deception and unfair practices.
 
2013-06-23 07:57:07 PM

CowboyUpCowgirlDown: andrewagill: lokis_mentor: RT/ITASS has him going to Venezuela ultimately after stop in Cuba.

Because Venezuela has no extradition with the United States.

WRONG AGAIN!


Actually, I am aware that Venezuela has an extradition treaty with the US.  Both Burn After Reading and The Spanish Prisoner make the same mistake, which I always found... curious.

/Burn After Reading always struck me as The Coen Bros. do Mamet.
 
2013-06-23 08:09:06 PM

andrewagill: CowboyUpCowgirlDown: andrewagill: lokis_mentor: RT/ITASS has him going to Venezuela ultimately after stop in Cuba.

Because Venezuela has no extradition with the United States.

WRONG AGAIN!

Actually, I am aware that Venezuela has an extradition treaty with the US.  Both Burn After Reading and The Spanish Prisoner make the same mistake, which I always found... curious.

/Burn After Reading always struck me as The Coen Bros. do Mamet.


While true, Venezuela just like Ecuador (and the USA) doesn't extradite political refugees.
 
2013-06-23 08:42:41 PM

whidbey: Ricardo Klement: Yeah it is - the government is never far from the process.

"Never far" is a relative term.

They do regular security audits and they're not easy.

Policing a contractor, not itself. There should be NO contracting when it comes to military matters. That's the big problem we're having.


I'm not sure I'm seeing how the contracting is the issue.
 
2013-06-23 08:56:05 PM
This... is insanely embarrassing.

Not for the US government, for the American people. The man did nothing wrong.
 
2013-06-23 09:08:04 PM

Marine1: This... is insanely embarrassing.

Not for the US government, for the American people. The man did nothing wrong.


You mean his outing the details of trying to hack Medvedev's phone was ok?
 
2013-06-23 09:25:31 PM

WorldCitizen: mikemil828: That China let him leave should tell you everything you need to know about Snowden's credibility, if he was really a valid source of info, he would've disappeared on the way to the airport, it would've been risk-free for the Chinese to do so as they would have blamed Obama and all the internet would have bought it like Fry buys phones. That they let him go shows that even the Chinese know he is full of shiat.

But he wasn't in mainland China, he was in Hong Kong. The PRC has their own reasons for not wanting to appear to openly violate the rule of law in Hong Kong. They don't want to stir up too much trouble for themselves there, and for Taiwan, they have to show that, "hey, if you come join the party like Hong Kong, we'll leave you alone internally, we promise!".  Beijing must tread carefully in Hong Kong, and their own internal politics comes before some US issue.


You seem to have missed the second part of my statement, the PRC wouldn't need to appear to openly violate the rule of law in Hong Kong, as everyone would assume the American government did it, like I said, risk-free.
 
2013-06-23 09:41:36 PM
Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.


Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.
 
2013-06-23 10:04:50 PM

Marine1: This... is insanely embarrassing.

Not for the US government, for the American people. The man did nothing wrong.


he did a lot right, but to say he did nothing wrong is to not understand everything he has done
 
2013-06-23 10:05:18 PM

SirEattonHogg: Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.

Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.


Can you please provide ONE example of something he has verifiably revealed to foreign governments that was VERIFIABLY not already known by said foreign governments. ONE SINGLE THING.
 
2013-06-23 10:07:44 PM

tbhouston: Marine1: This... is insanely embarrassing.

Not for the US government, for the American people. The man did nothing wrong.

he did a lot right, but to say he did nothing wrong is to not understand everything he has done


So enlighten us, oh vague, cryptic and pointless one. Help us "understand" as you so clearly do.
 
2013-06-23 10:18:59 PM
Serious Post on Serious Thread: Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.

Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.


Can you please provide ONE example of something he has verifiably revealed to foreign governments that was VERIFIABLY not already known by said foreign governments. ONE SINGLE THING.

Aljazeera reported the following "The US government is hacking Chinese mobile-phone companies to gather data from millions of text messages, Edward Snowden has told the  South China Morning Post in Hong Kong.

US spies have also hacked China's Tsinghua University in Beijing and Asia Pacific fibre-optic network operator Pacnet, the newspaper reported on Saturday quoting the former US National Security Agency (NSA) contractor charged with espionage for exposing secret US surveillance activities.  "The NSA does all kinds of things like hack Chinese cell phone companies to steal all of your SMS data," Snowden said in the interview conducted on June 12.  The  Post said Snowden had provided documents listing operational details of specific attacks on computers, including internet protocol (IP) addresses, over a four-year period.  Government data shows almost 900bn text messages were exchanged in China in 2012.

When the government prosecutes someone for revealing classified information, there is no defense based on the fact that the Chinese or the Russians knew that stuff anyways.

Further, do the Chinese know that we spied on Tsinghua or its cell phone companies?
 
2013-06-23 10:37:24 PM

SirEattonHogg: Serious Post on Serious Thread: Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.

Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.

Can you please provide ONE example of something he has verifiably revealed to foreign governments that was VERIFIABLY not already known by said foreign governments. ONE SINGLE THING.

Aljazeera reported the following "The US government is hacking Chinese mobile-phone companies to gather data from millions of text messages, Edward Snowden has told the  South China Morning Post in Hong Kong.

US spies have also hacked China's Tsinghua University in Beijing and Asia Pacific fibre-optic network operator Pacnet, the newspaper reported on Saturday quoting the former US National Security Agency (NSA) contractor charged with espionage for exposing secret US surveillance activities.  "The NSA does all kinds of things like hack Chinese cell phone companies to steal all of your SMS data," Snowden said in the interview conducted on June 12.  The  Post said Snowden had provided documents listing operational details of specific attacks on computers, including internet protocol (IP) addresses, over a four-year period.  Government data shows almost 900bn text messages were exchanged in China in 2012.

When the government prosecutes someone for revealing classified information, there is no defense based on the fact that the Chinese or the Russians knew that stuff anyways.

Further, do the Chinese know that we spied on Tsinghua or its cell phone companies?


what? Continuous assertions that "The Chinese knew we were doing all this anyway" isn't good enough for you? Leave Dorothy Mantooth alone. He's a saint!
 
2013-06-23 10:56:54 PM
skullkrusher:   what? Continuous assertions that "The Chinese knew we were doing all this anyway" isn't good enough for you? Leave Dorothy Mantooth alone. He's a saint!

Dorothy Mantooth?!  Why don't you go back to your home on Whore island!
 
2013-06-23 11:04:28 PM
Paperwork delay. It happens.
goodmorninggloucester.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-06-23 11:46:06 PM

DoctorCal: CowboyUpCowgirlDown: andrewagill: lokis_mentor: RT/ITASS has him going to Venezuela ultimately after stop in Cuba.

Because Venezuela has no extradition with the United States.

WRONG AGAIN!


You understand Ecuador and Venezuela are different countries, right?


Yes:  I know they're different.  I assumed Venezuela was just a change of plane on the way to Quito.  He met with Ecuadorian Diplomats in Moscow, not Venezuelan.  Nobody has reported that he's requested asylum in Venezuela...But to your credit:  I didn't read what I linked.
 
2013-06-24 12:37:05 AM

Ricardo Klement: whidbey: Ricardo Klement: Yeah it is - the government is never far from the process.

"Never far" is a relative term.

They do regular security audits and they're not easy.

Policing a contractor, not itself. There should be NO contracting when it comes to military matters. That's the big problem we're having.

I'm not sure I'm seeing how the contracting is the issue.


It's really not rocket science:

See; Halliburon, Blackwater. By outsourcing its operations, the US government ultimately is off the hook for any abuses of power.
 
2013-06-24 12:39:39 AM

whidbey: By outsourcing its operations, the US government ultimately is off the hook for any abuses of power.


Or even just for any fark ups.

Like any company that uses contractors.
 
2013-06-24 12:43:39 AM

Serious Post on Serious Thread: SirEattonHogg: Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.

Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.

Can you please provide ONE example of something he has verifiably revealed to foreign governments that was VERIFIABLY not already known by said foreign governments. ONE SINGLE THING.


Verifiably not already known?

You telling me you didn't already know the government was spying on us, that this was a complete surprise?
 
2013-06-24 12:46:58 AM

whidbey: Ricardo Klement: whidbey: Ricardo Klement: Yeah it is - the government is never far from the process.

"Never far" is a relative term.

They do regular security audits and they're not easy.

Policing a contractor, not itself. There should be NO contracting when it comes to military matters. That's the big problem we're having.

I'm not sure I'm seeing how the contracting is the issue.

It's really not rocket science:

See; Halliburon, Blackwater. By outsourcing its operations, the US government ultimately is off the hook for any abuses of power.


Uh-huh.

You know, a reasonable look at this stuff and one might detect a slight difference between a contractor overseas and a contractor in the U.S.  For example, it's a lot harder to run child prostitutes in the U.S. than it is in, say, Bosnia.  Since we're talking about a guy who was a working stiff in the U.S., let's keep the subject limited to the abuses here.
 
2013-06-24 12:48:09 AM

Ricardo Klement: Serious Post on Serious Thread: SirEattonHogg: Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.

Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.

Can you please provide ONE example of something he has verifiably revealed to foreign governments that was VERIFIABLY not already known by said foreign governments. ONE SINGLE THING.

Verifiably not already known?

You telling me you didn't already know the government was spying on us, that this was a complete surprise?


I love this: "What? We knew it all along!"
And you farkers didn't say anything?
 
2013-06-24 12:52:15 AM

Ricardo Klement: whidbey: Ricardo Klement: whidbey: Ricardo Klement: Yeah it is - the government is never far from the process.

"Never far" is a relative term.

They do regular security audits and they're not easy.

Policing a contractor, not itself. There should be NO contracting when it comes to military matters. That's the big problem we're having.

I'm not sure I'm seeing how the contracting is the issue.

It's really not rocket science:

See; Halliburon, Blackwater. By outsourcing its operations, the US government ultimately is off the hook for any abuses of power.

Uh-huh.

You know, a reasonable look at this stuff and one might detect a slight difference between a contractor overseas and a contractor in the U.S.  For example, it's a lot harder to run child prostitutes in the U.S. than it is in, say, Bosnia.  Since we're talking about a guy who was a working stiff in the U.S., let's keep the subject limited to the abuses here.


I would still prefer the NSA be its own department accountable to none other than its own department.

The idea of "private spying contractors" is frankly offensive, and counter to the concept of a representative democracy.
 
2013-06-24 12:57:59 AM

skullkrusher: Ricardo Klement: Serious Post on Serious Thread: SirEattonHogg: Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.

Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.

Can you please provide ONE example of something he has verifiably revealed to foreign governments that was VERIFIABLY not already known by said foreign governments. ONE SINGLE THING.

Verifiably not already known?

You telling me you didn't already know the government was spying on us, that this was a complete surprise?

I love this: "What? We knew it all along!"
And you farkers didn't say anything?


That's not what I'm saying.  I'm pointing out that there are two standards here.  Snowden was a hero because he verified what everyone suspected, doing a great service for us for confirming our suspicions that our government was listening to our phone calls.  But at the same time, he didn't reveal anything important to Russia because they already knew that we were probably trying to listen to their phone calls.  One cannot have it both ways.  Either his revelations matter, in which case, his revealing that information to the Russians makes him a dick, or his revelations are irrelevant, in which case, what's the big deal?

He can have done a good thing in one case and a bad thing in the other, of course, but few people seem to be willing to consider that to be palatable.
 
2013-06-24 01:03:19 AM

whidbey: I would still prefer the NSA be its own department accountable to none other than its own department.

The idea of "private spying contractors" is frankly offensive, and counter to the concept of a representative democracy.


I'm not sure why that follows.  What's the difference?  Both are U.S. citizens, both undergo precisely the same security clearance reviews and background checks.  So the contractors can pay more.  That means you can get people with more skills involved.
 
2013-06-24 01:05:23 AM

Ricardo Klement: One cannot have it both ways. Either his revelations matter, in which case, his revealing that information to the Russians makes him a dick, or his revelations are irrelevant, in which case, what's the big deal?


That goes both ways:  How is it that he he a traitor who stole state secrets, but didn't tell us anything we didn't already know?
 
2013-06-24 01:14:22 AM

sendtodave: Ricardo Klement: One cannot have it both ways. Either his revelations matter, in which case, his revealing that information to the Russians makes him a dick, or his revelations are irrelevant, in which case, what's the big deal?

That goes both ways:  How is it that he he a traitor who stole state secrets, but didn't tell us anything we didn't already know?


He DID tell us something we didn't know.  The TS slides were things we didn't know.  I was merely pointing out the absurdity of, "Tell us one thing he told them they verifiably didn't know."  He is a traitor who released secrets the people of the United States did not want other countries to know.  That's in addition to whatever he told us about what's going on here.
 
2013-06-24 01:35:26 AM

Ricardo Klement: e is a traitor who released secrets the people of the United States did not want other countries to know.


No, he released secrets that the government of the United States did not want them to know.  Big farking difference.

The people did not know about these things, nor do the people have a say over what is considered a state secret in the first place.  They don't even have control over what they are allowed to see.  They aren't supposed to have that power.

Snowden gave power to the people.  The government doesn't like that.
 
2013-06-24 03:58:17 AM
Unhip1: Snowden is either playing you all for his own elevaion (including Messiah or martyr conplex), or being played himself. If he really wanted to crack the whip, Wikileaks could've saved him a lot of trouble and money. The fact he ended up on TV news right away made me question his motives fron day one. The daily attention has only confirned that.
Most dangerous attention whore ever.

I dunno, Patrick Henry with his "Give me liberty or give me death" so let's cast off our government and put me in charge might be a contender.

He's considered a hero, too.

Um...using logical fallacies don't really make you look smart.
see: FALSE ANALOGY and EQUIVOCATION
 
2013-06-24 04:02:48 AM
That was to sendtodave, not to myself
 
2013-06-24 05:18:10 AM

AndreMA: thamike: AndreMA: log_jammin: AndreMA: Also careful that his flights don't have a chance of passing through airspace (US or international) controlled by US ATC.

because?

A convenient diversion for "weather" reasons to a US airport.

Wouldn't the plane have to be in U.S. airspace?

Someone handles the traffic in international airspace; there are treaties in place to determine which country handles mid-ocean traffic.


Ok.
 
2013-06-24 05:23:29 AM

Reverend J: thamike: Cornelius Dribble: Cuba, huh? Lee Harvey Snowden.

Snowden's neither an assassin nor a patsy.  He's just a little thick in the head.

For being thick in the head he sure is pulling a fast one on the US government.

I love how the government is saying "trust us" when their approval ratings is at 16%.  Caught the Sunday morning talking heads and I can't count how many times  politicians who came on TV said that "50 terrorist attacks were foiled" it seems everyone got the same talking points. It'd be great if they could give say 10 to 15 real examples, maybe I'd believe them then. Also, expect this to happen way more, with over 1 million contractors with TS clearance, it's not a matter of if someone is going to leak a ton more info, it's just a matter of when.


Really, this is the only bit of wisdom to take away from this entire fiasco.
 
2013-06-24 05:33:00 AM

Ricardo Klement: whidbey: I would still prefer the NSA be its own department accountable to none other than its own department.

The idea of "private spying contractors" is frankly offensive, and counter to the concept of a representative democracy.

I'm not sure why that follows.  What's the difference?  Both are U.S. citizens, both undergo precisely the same security clearance reviews and background checks.


Well then maybe you need to Google both Halliburton and Blackwater like I asked you to. You clearly have forgotten the past 10 years.
 
2013-06-24 05:45:15 AM

whidbey: See; Halliburon, Blackwater. By outsourcing its operations, the US government ultimately is off the hook for any abuses of power.


If only it was as nefarious and less slipshod, i might have some backhanded respect for our evil, evil government.  The privatization of the military was a simple (yet almost improperly generous) favor amongst "friends."  It was the Buch/Cheney/Wolfowitz gladhanders' lack of concern about consequences that has reaped all of these consequences.

Privatizing the army and outsourcing intelligence wasn't a plan hatched in a converted volcano lair by guys with eye patches.  It was done over wasted Scotch in a stuffy wooden outpost among men's men who get together in solitude to man the menly man thing and huff the cigar snortbeast and shake hands and cackle over money.

What the world's been going through is a giant multi-billion dollar frat stunt.  And that's why it sucks.  2000-2008 was a Bret Easton Ellis novel only with less than half of the needless male nudity, and none of the shame.
 
2013-06-24 06:42:31 AM
A reporter for RT on the Moscow to Havana flight said that they had left the gate with no Snowden on board. Has anyone checked the cargo compartment?
 
2013-06-24 07:27:08 AM

Brian_of_Nazareth: Not to try to push this discussion in a different direction(let's face it, the shiat-tossing on both sides is entertaining), but there's one question nobody seems to have asked yet.  All this data the government is pulling that according to some represents a massive intrusion into personal privacy is coming from corporate servers.  So, apparently you're all fine with Google, AT&T, Verizon, etc having and using this data with oversight only from shareholders, yet it's full-on panic mode when the government gets its hands on this data even though there is, at least ostensibly, some restraint and oversight.  Google watching your email for economic advantage?  All good.  NSA watching your emails because some people are afraid of terrorists?  INVASION OF PRIVACY!111!

We now return you to the regularly scheduled Sunday morning babble-fest.

Cheers.


Because google, verizon, Facebook, etc cannot send you to a secret prison without being told what crime you have been charged with and waterboard you. Just because the government supposedly doesn't look at the data now, they already have collected all of it and they could get a warrant to look at your specific data later. It could possible undermine free speech. The government could possibly dig into the data to find out whether or not someone participated in a protest. Or if someone who is speaking out against the government starts to gain to large a following, the data could be used as blackmail if they have ever cheated on their spouse or done anything else embarrassing. In the United States pretty much all privacy laws ever passed regarded what the government can do with the data. This is because the government has powers that are not available to private companies. I think that is the obvious difference.

Plus, the government is assembling the whole picture. Verizon only has access to a limited set of data about your cell phone usage. Google may have information about your shopping habits and search history. Facebook has a variety of information about us. Once it's all gathered into a single place a much clearer picture can be painted about you and your activities. It's also obvious that the information being gathered probably doesn't reflect exactly who you are as a person and could easily be distorted to make you out to be something you are not.
 
2013-06-24 07:30:26 AM

thamike: numbquil: Why? He's acting out of necessity.

Nothing he has done has been out of necessity.


He had to travel to these countries because avoiding arrest is in his own best interest. Whether or not you agree with what he did. Keep in mind he was in Hawaii. It is possible that he couldn't get a direct flight from Hawaii to Venezuela or whatever his final destination is.
 
2013-06-24 10:12:11 AM

Ricardo Klement: skullkrusher: Ricardo Klement: Serious Post on Serious Thread: SirEattonHogg: Corn_Fed:   Anyone who doesn't see Snowden as a justified whistle-blower is too stupid to live.

What the NSA is doing is illegal and against the 4th Amendment. Snowden is absolutely right to have exposed the illegal program. I exalt his actions.

Except he is now revealing info about our spying activities as it relates to foreign governments, institutions and citizens.

So his position as justified whistle blower is eroded to some extent.

Can you please provide ONE example of something he has verifiably revealed to foreign governments that was VERIFIABLY not already known by said foreign governments. ONE SINGLE THING.

Verifiably not already known?

You telling me you didn't already know the government was spying on us, that this was a complete surprise?

I love this: "What? We knew it all along!"
And you farkers didn't say anything?

That's not what I'm saying.  I'm pointing out that there are two standards here.  Snowden was a hero because he verified what everyone suspected, doing a great service for us for confirming our suspicions that our government was listening to our phone calls.  But at the same time, he didn't reveal anything important to Russia because they already knew that we were probably trying to listen to their phone calls.  One cannot have it both ways.  Either his revelations matter, in which case, his revealing that information to the Russians makes him a dick, or his revelations are irrelevant, in which case, what's the big deal?

He can have done a good thing in one case and a bad thing in the other, of course, but few people seem to be willing to consider that to be palatable.


You are being pedantic. And your either/or is bunk. The foreign gov'ts in question certainly knew all this crap before hand, and are certainly doing their damndest to do it themselves. So no harm to perceived US 'interests' and 'safety'. On the other hand, the US citizens also knew, could have known or suspected most of this shiat. It's been on everything from Wired to Jay Leno in years past. Snowden just put a finer point on it and got the shiatizens to pay farking attention (at least til the next distraction of the week occurs).
 
2013-06-24 10:31:24 AM

sendtodave: Ricardo Klement: e is a traitor who released secrets the people of the United States did not want other countries to know.

No, he released secrets that the government of the United States did not want them to know.  Big farking difference.

The people did not know about these things, nor do the people have a say over what is considered a state secret in the first place.  They don't even have control over what they are allowed to see.  They aren't supposed to have that power.

Snowden gave power to the people.  The government doesn't like that.


Power would suggest choice.  Snowden didn't give the people any discretion in what would be made available to the world.  He didn't empower the people, he took it away.  And, given the polling, he did something most people didn't want.  QED.
 
2013-06-24 10:34:11 AM

Ricardo Klement: That's not what I'm saying. I'm pointing out that there are two standards here. Snowden was a hero because he verified what everyone suspected, doing a great service for us for confirming our suspicions that our government was listening to our phone calls. But at the same time, he didn't reveal anything important to Russia because they already knew that we were probably trying to listen to their phone calls. One cannot have it both ways. Either his revelations matter, in which case, his revealing that information to the Russians makes him a dick, or his revelations are irrelevant, in which case, what's the big deal?


I don't think very many people suspected the extent to which we were being spied upon. Sure, there has always been grumbling about abuses of the PATRIOT Act and what it COULD be used for but I have heard very few people saying this sort of shiat was ongoing and extensive except Alex Jones
 
2013-06-24 10:56:35 AM

whidbey: Ricardo Klement: whidbey: I would still prefer the NSA be its own department accountable to none other than its own department.

The idea of "private spying contractors" is frankly offensive, and counter to the concept of a representative democracy.

I'm not sure why that follows.  What's the difference?  Both are U.S. citizens, both undergo precisely the same security clearance reviews and background checks.

Well then maybe you need to Google both Halliburton and Blackwater like I asked you to. You clearly have forgotten the past 10 years.


Again - we're talking about two different things.  There's a difference between what they do and what Booze does.  I share your concerns over the legal blind-spot in which deployed contractors live.  But I do not when it comes to intel analysis.  Why do you insist on conflating the two?
 
2013-06-24 10:59:35 AM

Serious Post on Serious Thread: You are being pedantic. And your either/or is bunk. The foreign gov'ts in question certainly knew all this crap before hand, and are certainly doing their damndest to do it themselves. So no harm to perceived US 'interests' and 'safety'. On the other hand, the US citizens also knew, could have known or suspected most of this shiat. It's been on everything from Wired to Jay Leno in years past. Snowden just put a finer point on it and got the shiatizens to pay farking attention (at least til the next distraction of the week occurs).


So you admit that Snowden didn't tell the public anything they verifiably didn't already know.  So really, this hero-worship really IS misplaced.
 
2013-06-24 11:03:52 AM

skullkrusher: I don't think very many people suspected the extent to which we were being spied upon. Sure, there has always been grumbling about abuses of the PATRIOT Act and what it COULD be used for but I have heard very few people saying this sort of shiat was ongoing and extensive except Alex Jones


Either details matter or they do not.  If they do, then Snowden's release of what we were doing to Medvedev's phone is treason.  If details do not matter, Snowden letting us know how much we're being spied on (stipulating for the sake of argument that what he *said* is true) is no great service.

Trying to absolve him of one because one really appreciates the other is incompatible with intellectual consistency.
 
2013-06-24 11:19:07 AM

Ricardo Klement: Serious Post on Serious Thread: You are being pedantic. And your either/or is bunk. The foreign gov'ts in question certainly knew all this crap before hand, and are certainly doing their damndest to do it themselves. So no harm to perceived US 'interests' and 'safety'. On the other hand, the US citizens also knew, could have known or suspected most of this shiat. It's been on everything from Wired to Jay Leno in years past. Snowden just put a finer point on it and got the shiatizens to pay farking attention (at least til the next distraction of the week occurs).

So you admit that Snowden didn't tell the public anything they verifiably didn't already know.  So really, this hero-worship really IS misplaced.


toe-may-toe ta-mat-toe. He did a good thing. He is risking his physical, mental and economic well-being to have done that thing. Your definition of 'hero' and characterization of 'hero worship' is just a pointless semantic aside. Remove the loaded 'hero' word out of it, and I'll just say it was a goddamn good, and righteous, thing to do. And I commend him for that.
 
2013-06-24 11:22:51 AM

Ricardo Klement: Trying to absolve him of one because one really appreciates the other is incompatible with intellectual consistency.


ah, ok.  Then we agree.
 
2013-06-24 12:17:42 PM

letrole: So you do have a right to privacy in a locked room that you actually own, with windows drawn and guests of your own choosing. But not on the telephone or interweb. For those sorts of communications, administrators and technicians and system owners must cooperate with you so that you can achieve what you wish to do.


The US Mail requires administrators and carriers to deliver your mail. Should you not expect privacy of your letters? Hasn't this been adjudicated long ago?

The most important aspect of the technology Snoden revealed is that the government is indiscriminately archiving the content all sorts of internet communications. These communications are said to remain secure unless there is a court order to access them. Yet, they were already seized prior to issuance of a warrant!

Why is this not the same as the government photocopying everyone's mailed letters, cards, and bills and filing them them until government gets a court order to read them? Wouldn't this be clearly a violation "right of the people to be secure in their ... papers... against unreasonable searches and seizures?"

Also the fourth amendment prohibits seizure without probable cause. Plying the intertubes is not prima facie evidence of wrongdoing.


The 4th: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
 
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