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(Al Jazeera)   Snowden continues his tour of freedom loving countries   (aljazeera.com) divider line 454
    More: Followup, Hong Kong, Moscow, political freedom, South China Morning Post, Dmitry Peskov  
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9351 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jun 2013 at 5:03 AM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-23 05:06:41 AM
Next stop Cuba
 
Juc
2013-06-23 05:07:09 AM
Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.
 
2013-06-23 05:07:21 AM
a licky boom boom down
 
2013-06-23 05:07:33 AM
Well, hey, when the U.S. is acting like a communist country on this issue, you might as well make your way to a couple of 'em. Y'know, just to see how it really feels.
 
2013-06-23 05:08:35 AM
I predict after he hands over US intel sources to Russia, Pootie Poot offers him up to the US in exchange for something like staying out of Syria or the re-hiring of Paula Deen on the Food Network.
 
2013-06-23 05:09:07 AM
Dude!  You're undermining your entire stance!  If you go to North Korea I'm going to have to side with the government.  I don't want to side with the farking government!  So don't do that!
 
2013-06-23 05:09:26 AM

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


Both sides are bad
 
2013-06-23 05:09:37 AM
whether or not you consider him a true patriot or not, he'd better leave his rings at home
 
2013-06-23 05:13:08 AM
Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?
 
2013-06-23 05:14:17 AM
In other words. Snowden continues to "Na na na boo-boo"  BLFFFTTT
 
2013-06-23 05:14:36 AM
"Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...
 
2013-06-23 05:15:10 AM

digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?


Benedict Arnold?

/he was a better general than Washington
 
2013-06-23 05:15:28 AM
Better than getting whacked by the FBI here.
 
2013-06-23 05:15:59 AM
He embarrassed the NSA.. not too many safe places for him left.
 
2013-06-23 05:16:31 AM

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


Lets not forget that police officers can kill you without cause or consequence, every aspect of a majority of the populous is controlled by a small oligarchy and the political life is largely a theocracy and any reason for the US to to fly the flags of freedom and democracy is looking like a joke.
 
2013-06-23 05:18:14 AM

digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?


Anyone that ever tried to make a difference.
 
2013-06-23 05:18:51 AM
I knew it! He was a goldurned pinko all along!
 
2013-06-23 05:25:45 AM
Mr. Icehouse, I presume.  Welcome.  Come this way, we have a car waiting.
 
2013-06-23 05:25:50 AM

quatchi: "Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...


Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with?  If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.
 
2013-06-23 05:26:39 AM

digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?


I'd go with whistle-blower to possible magnate to guy who doesn't want to spend his life in a small cell run by the NSA for the rest of his natural life but...

This whole subject needed to be brought up. The US has a lot of things it needs to reexamine with the Patriot Act front and center. This shouldn't be like the old days when we just setup a dictator like we were hiring a manager for a store. We're still paying for that stuff...
 
2013-06-23 05:28:55 AM
Sorry Mr. Snowden.  I tried caring about this stuff.  You seem like a nice guy, but I got burned pretty bad supporting that Stark guy on Game of Thrones so I'm gonna stay out of politics for a while.  My heart can't take it.
 
2013-06-23 05:31:10 AM

MurphyMurphy: digistil: Also, has anyone ever gone from patriot, to liar, to traitor as quickly as Snowden?

Anyone that ever tried to make a difference.


I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.
 
2013-06-23 05:31:13 AM
You just know there has to be people sitting around him on the plane giving him dirty looks and devious smiles.  I bet he is sweating paranoid balls right about now.
 
Juc
2013-06-23 05:32:00 AM

digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.


what was the lie about prism?
 
2013-06-23 05:32:10 AM
At this point he doesn't have many options when it comes to finding asylum. I imagine he plans on revealing how much of Russia's military and diplomatic traffic is being listened to, and possibly what encryptions are vulnerable. This will probably put a huge dent into our abilities to spy on Russia, much like it has probably affected it with China. I imagine he's telling everything that he knows as well as everything that he thinks he knows.

/I know I'm imagining a lot, based on lack of actual knowledge.
 
2013-06-23 05:34:35 AM

Andromeda: Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with? If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.


Outside of there being no non-stop flights from Hong Kong to Iceland (and probably not to Ecuador)

I think he was still in the process of getting Iceland to ok it? Something like that.

As for Ecuador, was that even discussed as a possibility for him?
And remember, Assange didn't go TO Ecuador, he just walked into the embassy in London and requested political asylum. And he's currently stuck there.

As we can see from Assange's position, as hard as it might be to get a nation to agree to harbor you, it's harder yet to actually get inside their borders.

Wherever he goes, Snowden's going to have to be very careful where he picks up his connecting flights.
 
2013-06-23 05:35:08 AM

Juc: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

what was the lie about prism?


That the US govt has direct access to corp. servers like Google and Facebook, and that a warrant isn't needed to request private information on a person.
 
2013-06-23 05:35:39 AM

Juc: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

what was the lie about prism?


Whatever Fox News said.
 
2013-06-23 05:36:57 AM

staplermofo: Sorry Mr. Snowden.  I tried caring about this stuff.  You seem like a nice guy, but I got burned pretty bad supporting that Stark guy on Game of Thrones so I'm gonna stay out of politics for a while.  My heart can't take it.


When you play the game of leaks, you win or you die; there is no middle ground.
 
2013-06-23 05:38:05 AM

austin_millbarge: Juc: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

what was the lie about prism?

Whatever Fox News said.


Faux News didn't say he lied, he said he lied.
 
2013-06-23 05:39:36 AM

Juc: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

what was the lie about prism?


He said that it was un-American.  That is impossible on its face, since by definition anything that the American government does is American, backed by the consent of the governed.

Anything that calls the legitimacy of the government into question, however, IS un-America.  Like him.
 
2013-06-23 05:39:54 AM
Anyone who kicks the US Gov in the balls is a hero. Hopefully he can settle in Iceland, banging weird Icelandic girls.
 
2013-06-23 05:43:31 AM
Oh, it's good to be right!

/referencing last thread.
 
2013-06-23 05:44:26 AM
Andromeda: quatchi: "Moscow will not be his final destination," it said, raising the possibility of Iceland or Ecuador as Snowden's final destination.

*dice rolling noise*

Out of the frying pan (or wok)...


Did anyone ever figure out why he didn't just go to Iceland or Ecuador to begin with?  If I was about to piss off the US government I'd at least make sure I was in the same hemisphere as the place I want to end up.

I'm thinking that he's thinking that the more publicity he attracts not just in the US but globally the larger his chances of survival increase and also that by doing it this way at the very least it keeps the story in heavy rotation in the notoriously fickle corporate media with it's "Squirrel? Where?!" cycles.

It's a story that he's basically given up all hope of a normal life for and it seems to be working so far

I could be wrong, obviously, this is all pure speculation and I'm half asleep and at cruising altitude.
 
2013-06-23 05:44:32 AM

Juc: Oh, I don't think the USA really has much room to critique others at this point.
Torturing loads of people, spying on the communications of every foreigner they can, as well as their own people "by accident", a prison where people can be held without charge, and man the list gets longer every day it seems.


The government may not be able to but the people have every right to call him a traitor is they see fit.

/and if the traitorous shoe fits...
 
2013-06-23 05:44:56 AM

digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference.


heeeeeeeere we go
 
2013-06-23 05:46:51 AM

digistil: austin_millbarge: Juc: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference. He lied about PRISM to sex it up; gave the Chinese military US intel and outed US sources of intel within China.

what was the lie about prism?

Whatever Fox News said.

Faux News didn't say he lied, he said he lied.


Question:1) Define in as much detail as you can what "direct access" means.
2) Can analysts listen to content of domestic calls without a warrant?

Answer: 1) More detail on how direct NSA's accesses are is coming, but in general, the reality is this: if an NSA, FBI, CIA, DIA, etc analyst has access to query raw SIGINT databases, they can enter and get results for anything they want. Phone number, email, user id, cell phone handset id (IMEI), and so on - it's all the same. The restrictions against this are policy based, not technically based, and can change at any time. Additionally, audits are cursory, incomplete, and easily fooled by fake justifications. For at least GCHQ, the number of audited queries is only 5% of those performed.
2) NSA likes to use "domestic" as a weasel word here for a number of reasons. The reality is that due to the FISA Amendments Act and its section 702 authorities, Americans' communications are collected and viewed on a daily basis on the certification of an analyst rather than a warrant. They excuse this as "incidental" collection, but at the end of the day, someone at NSA still has the content of your communications. Even in the event of "warranted" intercept, it's important to understand the intelligence community doesn't always deal with what you would consider a "real" warrant like a Police department would have to, the "warrant" is more of a templated form they fill out and send to a reliable judge with a rubber stamp.



This was the last I heard on it.  Is there an update?
 
2013-06-23 05:47:47 AM

log_jammin: When you play the game of leaks, you win or you die; there is no middle ground.


Genius!  Let's trademark it and license it dog pounds.
 
2013-06-23 05:48:21 AM

MurphyMurphy: digistil: I would be extremely reluctant to declare he's trying to make a difference.

heeeeeeeere we go


I'm just wondering the acronym that this guy works for.
 
2013-06-23 05:54:01 AM

quatchi: I'm thinking that he's thinking that the more publicity he attracts not just in the US but globally the larger his chances of survival increase and also that by doing it this way at the very least it keeps the story in heavy rotation in the notoriously fickle corporate media with it's "Squirrel? Where?!" cycles.


40 years ago this would have been THE story.

Now?

"Meh, I always figured they could do this, what with modern technology being what it is.  Also, with modern technology being what it is, I don't really care about any outrage for more than a couple days, if at all."
 
2013-06-23 05:54:31 AM
So I guess we can safely say that Mr. Snowden has unlocked the Leroy Jenkins achievement?
 
2013-06-23 05:57:23 AM
I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people."


"He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."
 
2013-06-23 06:00:47 AM

log_jammin: I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people."


"He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."


From your linked article:

"As you heard the president say on Friday, he believes that we must strike a balance between our security interests and our desire for privacy. He made clear that you cannot have 100 percent security and 100 percent privacy. And, thus, we need to find that balance," White House press secretary Jay Carney said Tuesday.

So, Farkers, what's your balance? What are you willing to give up? How far are you willing to bend over in the name of 'security'?
 
2013-06-23 06:02:44 AM

robohobo: So, Farkers, what's your balance? What are you willing to give up? How far are you willing to bend over in the name of 'security'?


huh. I took that as a reasonable statement. guess you didn't.
 
2013-06-23 06:02:54 AM
There are a lot of places I'd go if I was fleeing American persecution and possible incarceration.

Into the loving arms of former KGB agent Vladimir Putin would not be one of them
 
2013-06-23 06:04:02 AM

log_jammin: I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people.


"I hope we follow Mr. Snowden to the ends of the earth to bring him to justice." -- Senator Lindsey Graham, member of House Committee on the Judiciary (97-02), current member on Senate Committee on Homeland Security.
"I think he's a traitor," "I think he has committed crimes," "I think it's one of the worst occasions in my memory of somebody with access to classified information doing enormous damage to the national security interests of the United States." -- Dick Cheney, former Vice President of the United States.
"What he did was an act of treason." -- Senator Dianne Feinstein, Chairwoman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, member of Committee on the Judiciary, Subcommittee on Terrorist and Homeland Security.
"He's a traitor." -- John Boehner, Speaker of the House.
"I hope that he will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law." -- Mitch McConnell, Senate Minority Leader
"I think that he should be prosecuted." -- Nancy Pelosi, House Minority Leader.
"I think he's a traitor. He has leaked classified information about intelligence gathering techniques that the United States government has been involved in which have been authorized and overseen by the US government. I don't know any other word to describe Mr. Snowden." -- John Cornyn, Senate Minority Whip.
"We're a nation of laws", so prosecute Edward Snowden for revealing possibly unconstitutional and illegal spying programs. -- John Thune, Senate Republican Conference Chair


I don't trust any of these people not to lie or act out of self interest.  But Al Franken? He's one of teh good guys!

/there are no good guys
 
2013-06-23 06:08:42 AM

robohobo: log_jammin: I don't know for sure if he lied or not. But I have a lot of faith in Al Franken, and he says this is a non issue and that's good enough for me. Is that a case of me looking for things to base my already predetermined conclusion on? Possibly. But I don't think that's the case.

Franken said, adding that "this is not about spying on the American people."


"He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."

From your linked article:

"As you heard the president say on Friday, he believes that we must strike a balance between our security interests and our desire for privacy. He made clear that you cannot have 100 percent security and 100 percent privacy. And, thus, we need to find that balance," White House press secretary Jay Carney said Tuesday.

So, Farkers, what's your balance? What are you willing to give up? How far are you willing to bend over in the name of 'security'?


I don't want to sound apologist, but what evidence is there that these programs have been used for anything approaching the level of what Hoover's FBI was doing? Weren't those overtly political abuses what led to the FISA system now employed? I am uncomfortable with the potential for abuse in these programs but what people voluntarily give up to Facebook or mylife or ancestry.com is probably more than you could find on any NSA database.
 
2013-06-23 06:09:15 AM

MurphyMurphy: As for Ecuador, was that even discussed as a possibility for him?
And remember, Assange didn't go TO Ecuador, he just walked into the embassy in London and requested political asylum. And he's currently stuck there.

As we can see from Assange's position, as hard as it might be to get a nation to agree to harbor you, it's harder yet to actually get inside their borders.

Wherever he goes, Snowden's going to have to be very careful where he picks up his connecting flights.


Well, Assange's only problem is that the British will arrest him the moment he steps outside the embassy's turf to try to get to the airport. Moscow certainly isn't going to detain him. His complication might be that at least a quick search of flights from Moscow to points in unfriendly Latin American countries does not turn up any direct flights from Moscow, but I just quickly searched Moscow to Quito, Havana, and Caracas. He might have to do some complicated flying to make it.
 
2013-06-23 06:09:23 AM

sendtodave: I don't trust any of these people not to lie or act out of self interest.


That's a very easy and safe opinion to have. doesn't require much thinking or intellectually honesty on your part.
 
2013-06-23 06:10:27 AM

robohobo: How far are you willing to bend over in the name of 'security'?


I had a camera literally shoved up my ass.  People are suggesting this be done to everyone on a 50-year not-dying streak.  The government has gone too far for too long!
 
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